Waco 'brawlers' vs. Baltimore 'thugs' -- how the media portrayed violence differently on the basis of race

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sun May 24, 2015 9:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

CNN law enforcement analyst Harry Houck asserted this week that the black community was to blame after pundits had referred to black rioters as “thugs” but had usually refused to use the same terminology for white criminals.

Following a shootout between rival biker gangs in Waco, Texas over the weekend, many noted that the media did not stereotype the suspects the same way that it had during coverage of the Baltimore riots, which were far less deadly.

“This is about a culture that looks at blackness and says that it sounds like a certain thing, it looks like a certain thing,” New York Times columnist Charles Blow explained to a CNN panel on Tuesday.

“I don’t know how you can make a comparison between Waco and Baltimore,” Houck complained. “Are these guys thugs? Yeah, they’re thugs… I use the word thug and I mean ‘bad guy’ when I use the word.”

“I think the word was owned by rappers,” he continued. “They started coming out with songs and calling themselves thugs, and I think that’s how this whole thing started, with the black community and the young men calling themselves thugs. Alright? And I think that’s how that all started.”

Blow argued that Houck’s etymology of the word thug was “patently inaccurate.”

“That word has a long history, and whether or not a word is absorbed into a community in the same way people absorbed the n-word and sometimes gay people absorbed words that were historically used to bash them, and try to rub off the edges of them and absorb it into the culture, to make it less abrasive and hurtful,” Blow observed. “A lot of times, that is what is happening with the etymology of words.”

But Blow said that the bigger concern was that the entire black community was treated as the problem after localized events in a way that the white community never was.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/cnns-ex-cop-defends-not-calling-white-bikers-thugs-this-thing-started-with-the-black-community/

Simply put, white-run media and white racists in general never talk about crime committed by whites as a white problem the way they talk about crime committed by blacks as a black problem, or crimes committed by Muslims as a Muslim problem, etc.

They treat white crimes as isolated incidents not tied to the rest of the white community, but continuously seek out cultural explanations for the crimes committed by non-whites.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu May 28, 2015 10:33 am

In fact, I've seen a lot of biased reporting about the Waco incident. The people who were there have generally been lumped together as trouble makers, and violent individuals. Obviously, some of them are (or were) because there were guns involved and people got shot. It's not actually clear who did the shooting - it's not even clear if the police shot any of those people or not. If they did, I'm not going to howl about police brutality without knowing the facts - unlike some people would.

Anyway, the point is that these people are being treated as one group rather than as individuals - which is something that the likes of Ben and Quill don't like when it comes to people who are not white.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu May 28, 2015 10:44 am

All our blacks here in UK have only arrived here in the last 50 years or so, of their own free will, having since been given housing, equal access to The education system and jobs etc... but still responsible for hugely disproportionate levels of crime!!!


With none of The excuses that You Are claiming are responsible for the similar levels of crime carried out by the blacks in USA!!!



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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu May 28, 2015 10:50 am

If you think about riots in general, the police need to come down hard on rioters - because it's such a volatile situation. It only needs one idiot to start setting fire to property, and others join in. They don't even care if anyone is inside a building. The whole situation escalates and then people might start dying, including police officers and rioters.

In the UK, the police actually didn't come down that hard on the rioters after the Mark Duggan shooting, but the courts did - they really did hand out some stiff sentences.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu May 28, 2015 10:51 am

Raggamuffin wrote:In fact, I've seen a lot of biased reporting about the Waco incident. The people who were there have generally been lumped together as trouble makers, and violent individuals. Obviously, some of them are (or were) because there were guns involved and people got shot. It's not actually clear who did the shooting - it's not even clear if the police shot any of those people or not. If they did, I'm not going to howl about police brutality without knowing the facts - unlike some people would.

Anyway, the point is that these people are being treated as one group rather than as individuals - which is something that the likes of Ben and Quill don't like when it comes to people who are not white.

I don't like it when it comes to anybody, and I don't think it's fair that it's done to non-whites but not to whites. In fact I think it's one of the most persistent factors in racist ideology -- this notion that people who aren't your color all think alike, even though you know that people who are your color don't all think alike.

@Tommy -- I'm pretty sure you've had black people in the UK for a lot longer than 50 years, and I'm pretty sure their ancestors were slaves owned by British people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British#The_slave_trade

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Post by Guest on Thu May 28, 2015 10:51 am

Tommy Monk wrote:All our blacks here in UK have only arrived here in the last 50 years or so,

Wrong.
There have been blacks in this country since the Roman times.

http://www.historytoday.com/paul-edwards/history-black-people-britain

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu May 28, 2015 10:55 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:I don't like it when it comes to anybody, and I don't think it's fair that it's done to non-whites but not to whites. In fact I think it's one of the most persistent factors in racist ideology -- this notion that people who aren't your color all think alike, even though you know that people who are your color don't all think alike.

And it extends far beyond the coverage of these two things. There is a constant tendency to describe any violence involving black people as a symptom of problems within the "black community," while this is never used in descriptions of violence involving white people.

To the point that a great satirical video was made about it:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdSsBYO1oNI

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu May 28, 2015 10:57 am

Yes dodge... but that really was "only a few!"... and we share the same history of subjugation by the then Romans so no excuses there either!!!



lol!



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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu May 28, 2015 10:57 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:In fact, I've seen a lot of biased reporting about the Waco incident. The people who were there have generally been lumped together as trouble makers, and violent individuals. Obviously, some of them are (or were) because there were guns involved and people got shot. It's not actually clear who did the shooting - it's not even clear if the police shot any of those people or not. If they did, I'm not going to howl about police brutality without knowing the facts - unlike some people would.

Anyway, the point is that these people are being treated as one group rather than as individuals - which is something that the likes of Ben and Quill don't like when it comes to people who are not white.

I don't like it when it comes to anybody, and I don't think it's fair that it's done to non-whites but not to whites. In fact I think it's one of the most persistent factors in racist ideology -- this notion that people who aren't your color all think alike, even though you know that people who are your color don't all think alike.

@Tommy -- I'm pretty sure you've had black people in the UK for a lot longer than 50 years, and I'm pretty sure their ancestors were slaves owned by British people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British#The_slave_trade

But you don't mind the press implying that all the bikers thought the same way.

I found this headline rather poignant and sad.

"Richie died, the Diesel, then Dog".

Obviously, they were nicknames but that headline did make them into individuals - who died when they shouldn't have. I don't know what those three people did, or what they were like as people, but I don't see anyone saying how sad it was that they died - probably because all these bikers have been depicted as trouble makers.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 28, 2015 10:58 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Yes dodge... but that really was "only a few!"... and we share the same history of subjugation by the then Romans so no excuses there either!!!




Seems far more than a few and again you were wrong full stop, try reading the link I sent you to save your further embarressment.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 28, 2015 10:59 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:I don't like it when it comes to anybody, and I don't think it's fair that it's done to non-whites but not to whites. In fact I think it's one of the most persistent factors in racist ideology -- this notion that people who aren't your color all think alike, even though you know that people who are your color don't all think alike.

And it extends far beyond the coverage of these two things. There is a constant tendency to describe any violence involving black people as a symptom of problems within the "black community," while this is never used in descriptions of violence involving white people.

To the point that a great satirical video was made about it:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdSsBYO1oNI

100% agree, there is a massive disparity on how groups of people are reported by the far right media in the US.
Fox news is appalling.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu May 28, 2015 11:08 am

What about NBC when they reported on the Trayvon Martin shooting? They edited the call Zimmerman made to the police, for which they were obliged to apologise later.

What about the photos which were published, depicting the two of them in a completely misleading way?

What about the way it was portrayed that Trayvon was killed for carrying Skittles?

What about Frederica Wilson stirring things up in Congress when she clearly didn't know the facts?

What about Obama saying that if he had a son he would look like Trayvon? Talk about stirring it up.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu May 28, 2015 11:10 am

Only a very tiny minority of blacks here in UK today had ever had ancestors who were slaves.



And It seems that in America during slavery, most blacks there weren't slaves either...


"...At the time of Lincoln’s arrival in 1837, Springfield had an African American population of approximately twenty-six – 1.78 percent of the total population of 1,5000.Six of those twenty-six were slaves..."


http://abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/abraham-lincoln-in-depth/abraham-lincoln-and-slavery/



Blacks have also had slaves too!!!




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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu May 28, 2015 11:10 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:In fact, I've seen a lot of biased reporting about the Waco incident. The people who were there have generally been lumped together as trouble makers, and violent individuals. Obviously, some of them are (or were) because there were guns involved and people got shot. It's not actually clear who did the shooting - it's not even clear if the police shot any of those people or not. If they did, I'm not going to howl about police brutality without knowing the facts - unlike some people would.

Anyway, the point is that these people are being treated as one group rather than as individuals - which is something that the likes of Ben and Quill don't like when it comes to people who are not white.

I don't like it when it comes to anybody, and I don't think it's fair that it's done to non-whites but not to whites. In fact I think it's one of the most persistent factors in racist ideology -- this notion that people who aren't your color all think alike, even though you know that people who are your color don't all think alike.

@Tommy -- I'm pretty sure you've had black people in the UK for a lot longer than 50 years, and I'm pretty sure their ancestors were slaves owned by British people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British#The_slave_trade

But you don't mind the press implying that all the bikers thought the same way.

I found this headline rather poignant and sad.

"Richie died, the Diesel, then Dog".

Obviously, they were nicknames but that headline did make them into individuals - who died when they shouldn't have. I don't know what those three people did, or what they were like as people, but I don't see anyone saying how sad it was that they died - probably because all these bikers have been depicted as trouble makers.

The point was, the media by and large didn't make the bikers out like they were part of a problem with white society as a whole, conflating them with everyone from me to Quill to Bernie Sanders to George W. Bush. They treated the bikers as individuals, or at least as members of their own biker subculture.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 28, 2015 11:11 am

Raggamuffin wrote:What about NBC when they reported on the Trayvon Martin shooting? They edited the call Zimmerman made to the police, for which they were obliged to apologise later.

What about the photos which were published, depicting the two of them in a completely misleading way?

What about the way it was portrayed that Trayvon was killed for carrying Skittles?

What about Frederica Wilson stirring things up in Congress when she clearly didn't know the facts?

What about Obama saying that if he had a son he would look like Trayvon? Talk about stirring it up.

That point works both ways on his case you do realise and all misleading reports would be deemed wrong.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu May 28, 2015 11:17 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

But you don't mind the press implying that all the bikers thought the same way.

I found this headline rather poignant and sad.

"Richie died, the Diesel, then Dog".

Obviously, they were nicknames but that headline did make them into individuals - who died when they shouldn't have. I don't know what those three people did, or what they were like as people, but I don't see anyone saying how sad it was that they died - probably because all these bikers have been depicted as trouble makers.

The point was, the media by and large didn't make the bikers out like they were part of a problem with white society as a whole, conflating them with everyone from me to Quill to Bernie Sanders to George W. Bush. They treated the bikers as individuals, or at least as members of their own biker subculture.

I still haven't seen a news report linking the riots to a "black problem" in general. I've seen some daft arguments about the word "thug", and some random photos which say nothing about it really.

The bikers have been lumped together in a negative way.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu May 28, 2015 11:19 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Only a very tiny minority of blacks here in UK today had ever had ancestors who were slaves.



And It seems that in America during slavery, most blacks there weren't slaves either...


"...At the time of Lincoln’s arrival in 1837, Springfield had an African American population of approximately twenty-six – 1.78 percent of the total population of 1,500.Six of those twenty-six were slaves..."


http://abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/abraham-lincoln-in-depth/abraham-lincoln-and-slavery/



Blacks have also had slaves too!!!







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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu May 28, 2015 11:19 am

Anyway, quite a few of those bikers didn't look white to me.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu May 28, 2015 11:30 am

This biker gang trouble is big news because it is a relatively rare event, while black gangs are warring all The time...

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu May 28, 2015 11:37 am

In fact, when the killing of Trayvon Martin first hit the news over here, I didn't know anything about it.

I casually clicked on a link on another forum, and saw that a white guy was being accused of murdering a black kid. I looked for the white guy but there was only a photo of a black child and one of a guy who was clearly not white.

I realise that in the US you probably have a different definition of "white", but I think it was also an attempt to paint the incident as a racist attack by a white person on a black person.

I then followed the story and saw several examples of terrible media bias and race baiting.

Here's an interesting article about it.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/randy-hall/2013/07/16/media-got-zimmerman-story-wrong-start-columnist-lawyer-charge

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu May 28, 2015 11:40 am



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDK8Vt8Ng9Y

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Post by Original Quill on Thu May 28, 2015 7:03 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:The problem is people like you who excuse some people on the basis of their colour, and hold others responsible for the crimes of those people. You even blame white people who weren't in Baltimore, or never even set foot in the US.

It's wonderful that you see that far into the issue. But don't stop there. Baltimore is a microcosm of a larger society. Surely, if you can see a burning car, you can see the death that angered people. And if you can see the death that angered people, you can see the many unnecessary deaths that take place at the hands of police every day. So, keep going...

...unless of course, you want to fake it and stop arbitrarily.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu May 28, 2015 7:06 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:The problem is people like you who excuse some people on the basis of their colour, and hold others responsible for the crimes of those people. You even blame white people who weren't in Baltimore, or never even set foot in the US.

It's wonderful that you see that far into the issue.  But don't stop there.  Baltimore is a microcosm of a larger society.  Surely, if you can see a burning car, you can see the death that angered people.  And if you can see the death that angered people, you can see the many unnecessary deaths that take place at the hands of police every day.  So, keep going...

...unless of course, you want to fake it and stop arbitrarily.

No, I see a burning car and a yob who used any excuse to commit arson.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu May 28, 2015 7:13 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:In fact, I've seen a lot of biased reporting about the Waco incident. The people who were there have generally been lumped together as trouble makers, and violent individuals. Obviously, some of them are (or were) because there were guns involved and people got shot. It's not actually clear who did the shooting - it's not even clear if the police shot any of those people or not. If they did, I'm not going to howl about police brutality without knowing the facts - unlike some people would.

Anyway, the point is that these people are being treated as one group rather than as individuals - which is something that the likes of Ben and Quill don't like when it comes to people who are not white.

Duh! They are a self-appointed gang. They choose not to be identified as individuals.

Waco police have said that all those arrested after the shooting belonged to criminal motorcycle gangs.

How is anyone else to blame for what they choose to call themselves?

As far as the deaths are concerned, and who shot whom:

Newly released information today includes the Waco Police stating 14 Waco PD officers were involved in firing shots which killed 9 bike club members and wounded 18 more.


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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu May 28, 2015 7:14 pm

So the police did all the shooting and killing? Well that changes things a bit.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu May 28, 2015 7:15 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

It's wonderful that you see that far into the issue.  But don't stop there.  Baltimore is a microcosm of a larger society.  Surely, if you can see a burning car, you can see the death that angered people.  And if you can see the death that angered people, you can see the many unnecessary deaths that take place at the hands of police every day.  So, keep going...

...unless of course, you want to fake it and stop arbitrarily.

No, I see a burning car and a yob who used any excuse to commit arson.

You see? You put the blinders on as to anything else. You'll never make a career in reporting, will you? Maybe professional checkers?

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu May 28, 2015 7:17 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

No, I see a burning car and a yob who used any excuse to commit arson.

You see?  You put the blinders on as to anything else.  You'll never make a career in reporting, will you?  Maybe professional checkers?

There's no other way to see it. You see arsonists as "victims" or "heroes", and I see them as arsonists and yobs.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu May 28, 2015 7:20 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:In fact, I've seen a lot of biased reporting about the Waco incident. The people who were there have generally been lumped together as trouble makers, and violent individuals. Obviously, some of them are (or were) because there were guns involved and people got shot. It's not actually clear who did the shooting - it's not even clear if the police shot any of those people or not. If they did, I'm not going to howl about police brutality without knowing the facts - unlike some people would.

Anyway, the point is that these people are being treated as one group rather than as individuals - which is something that the likes of Ben and Quill don't like when it comes to people who are not white.

Duh!  They are a self-appointed gang.  They choose not to be identified as individuals.

Waco police have said that all those arrested after the shooting belonged to criminal motorcycle gangs.

How is anyone else to blame for what they choose to call themselves?

As far as the deaths are concerned, and who shot whom:

Newly released information today includes the Waco Police stating 14 Waco PD officers were involved in firing shots which killed 9 bike club members and wounded 18 more.


A gang is not necessarily a criminal gang.


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Post by Original Quill on Thu May 28, 2015 7:22 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Duh!  They are a self-appointed gang.  They choose not to be identified as individuals.



How is anyone else to blame for what they choose to call themselves?

As far as the deaths are concerned, and who shot whom:




A gang is not necessarily a criminal gang.


Who cares?  The point you were making was about 'individuals'.

These people were in a self-professed gang, identified themselves as such, and acted in concert as a gang.  Of course the press is not going to treat them like individuals.

Whether they were criminals remains to be seen in the outcome of their trials.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu May 28, 2015 7:25 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

A gang is not necessarily a criminal gang.


Who cares?  The point you were making was about 'individuals'.

These people were in a self-professed gang, identified themselves as such, and acted in concert as a gang.  Of course the press is not going to treat them like individuals.

Whether they were criminals remains to be seen in the outcome of their trials.

You put a quote there about them being a criminal gang.

If members of a black gang get killed, I do hope you'll say that they weren't individuals. The rioters formed a gang too - so are they not individuals?

I hope the Baltimore rioters who did any damage get banged up. I feel sorry for the shopkeepers who had their shops wrecked by mindless twats.

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Post by Original Quill on Fri May 29, 2015 6:19 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Who cares?  The point you were making was about 'individuals'.

These people were in a self-professed gang, identified themselves as such, and acted in concert as a gang.  Of course the press is not going to treat them like individuals.

Whether they were criminals remains to be seen in the outcome of their trials.

You put a quote there about them being a criminal gang.

If members of a black gang get killed, I do hope you'll say that they weren't individuals. The rioters formed a gang too - so are they not individuals?

I hope the Baltimore rioters who did any damage get banged up. I feel sorry for the shopkeepers who had their shops wrecked by mindless twats.

That's what the police called them, "criminal gang." As you said, it was a quote, not my original language.

Cops will try to color their facts right from the first press release, using terms like 'criminal' or 'illegal', in an effort to taint a jury pool, as well as make themselves look good. That's why I laugh so often when posters c&p news stories loaded with such police 'inspired' adjectives and adverbs. Rolling Eyes

In this case, the police used the same press release tactics. It's beside the point as the thread is not about tensions between police and bikers, but a comparison of press treatment of two entirely different stories (Texas and Baltimore).

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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