Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods

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Post by Guest on Thu May 14, 2015 10:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

Okay, maybe religious is not the right word, maybe what is better is a god or gods where it does not matter that beliefs is needed in them to exist.

I know a couple of posters on here have a concept of a God or Gods and it occurred to me, what reason is there to even believe in this God or Gods?

If this concept of a God, has an after life and you believe you go onto this after life, then the belief in a God or Gods is not required is it not?

If you believe this God or Gods has no requirement for you to believe that when you pass away you go onto an after life, then what reason really do you have to believe in a God or Gods?


Think about it, your belief is not reliant to pass onto a next world or an after life, so there is no real reason to believe a God exists, unless you feel that this belief is necessary to pass on into this after life does it not?

So your only belief needs only to believe that an after life exists. There is no pass mark to get into this after life in believing in a God or gods and thus there is no real reason why you would then ever need to believe that god or gods exist. The belief or the reason to need to believe in a god is thus redundant.

So I ask this with all sincerity. Of those who believe in this kind of God or Gods, why on earth do you think you need to even believe in a God? Having no belief in this God or Gods that you believe in actually requires no reason to believe in, because it does not have any repercussions if you don't believe.

Others agree or disagree on the point of the reason to believe?

Then what you need to ask yourself, is does an after life even need a God to even exist?

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Post by Guest on Fri May 15, 2015 9:27 am

veya_victaous wrote:PLEASE READ My post clearly say On Afterlife and On Creator

where i explain NO i don't believe in 'afterlife' I believe in a 'next-life' and my deities also go through this..

I dont know and dont believe you can know at this stage of spiritual development if there is a creator or not... you will have to wait until you can be reincarnated as a star or something much grander than a human. I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to put it into words that humans could understand our total spiritual mass is too insignificant to comprehend such things.

AND why would you need a reason? you need to answer that first  BECAUSE I AM TELLING YOU I HAVE NO REASON straight up i have no reason beyond why own thoughts that entertain me.
So there is my answer NO your question doesn't make sense because i require no greater reason than because i feel like it.
I Know I don't have all the answer that is why i am still asking questions and DONT assume something isn't just because i don't understand it.

Yoiu are making my point.
You state clearly you have no reason to believe yet do believe.
It does not matter what you think you understand about spirituality or now reincarnation, which is again a belief that does not require a deity at all in its belief system, which goes beck to the point there is no real reason for you to need to believe in a deity. You fail to grasp that such a belief in a diety is redundent. There is no necessity to believe in a deity as your life does not require this why at every turn you cannot answer this question  I have posed to you Veya, where in fact you are actually backing my point and even fail to see why you are doing so.
So your belief is in a next life, this again this belief does not require the necessity to believe in a deity, the belief of a next life does not even require you to need to believe a diety or deities exist.

So you have just backed my question, as you actually have nbo real need tol believe in any gods, your purpose in liofe and your beliefs in a new life, do not require that you do need to believe

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri May 15, 2015 9:36 am

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:You still are not answering the question Veya

So again

I have no concept of a god at all here except you need to believe in one ("many are possible" is my position, I disagree with the concept of a singular divine being)
It matters not how you even perceive what this deity is or how it looks.
What is important is why there is a need to believe if there is no "real reason" to believe. AND that is Ok Why does it have to affect you? knowing what happens in Saturn's Rings isn't going to affect me either
Ask yourself, why are you believing? What purpose does it actually serve? Faith does have tangible benefits to ones well-being.. why choose a path that statically will make you less happy, less fulfilled, lower health, more likely to suffer depression? Sun Shine also has positive effect why not kill two birds with one stone?
Does you life even need to believe in this deity where as others most certainly do?

So do you believe in an after life? NEXT LIFE this is just one long journey that never ends
If yes, does that need a creator? No, But there could be I don't concern myself with creation as i do not believe it is possible to know

Even if it did, what purpose still do you need to actually believe in a god, when that God has no actual need to be believed in? No Purpose required


I do not think you can answer and not taking the piss, because it is a real pickle of a question to place a believer in really, hence why brought this up mate.
It really isn't, you are just trying to railroad me into Abrahmaist Definition. I am clearly saying REINCARNATION and deities that also REINCARNATE so where is the creator in this? Some of my gods have created things (i have created things too) but i have never suggested any of them created the lot. they still exist in it so how could they create the multiverse they exist in? that is the sort of fundamentally flawed logic used in Abrahamism


The point is there is no "real" need to believe in something that has no requirement in your life that you do so. CORRECT It is like I have said before to Christians and Muslims, if they did not fear their deity, they would have no reason to believe in this God. It is a fear of what this deity would do in their next life which is why they are thus believeing, because their belief requires purpose to believe. Hence why both faiths are based not on anything good but fear and fear is not in anyway love. We love our partners and children and friends for example, what need would we have to fear them? This is why the abrahamic faiths are not based on love but a fear Shooting fish in a Barrel of what could happen if they do not believe or obey commands.
My deities DON'T do anything to you they exist for their own purpose they give zero fucks about something as insignificant as us.. You know what the sun is!!! you can see it? I am not suggesting it will ever effect you more than it does right now, the purpose of my solar deity is to explain the excess energy the sun produces. It still is going to operate exactly the same if violent hairless ape worship it or not

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri May 15, 2015 9:37 am

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:PLEASE READ My post clearly say On Afterlife and On Creator

where i explain NO i don't believe in 'afterlife' I believe in a 'next-life' and my deities also go through this..

I dont know and dont believe you can know at this stage of spiritual development if there is a creator or not... you will have to wait until you can be reincarnated as a star or something much grander than a human. I believe it is IMPOSSIBLE to put it into words that humans could understand our total spiritual mass is too insignificant to comprehend such things.

AND why would you need a reason? you need to answer that first  BECAUSE I AM TELLING YOU I HAVE NO REASON straight up i have no reason beyond why own thoughts that entertain me.
So there is my answer NO your question doesn't make sense because i require no greater reason than because i feel like it.
I Know I don't have all the answer that is why i am still asking questions and DONT assume something isn't just because i don't understand it.

Yoiu are making my point.
You state clearly you have no reason to believe yet do believe.
It does not matter what you think you understand about spirituality or now reincarnation, which is again a belief that does not require a deity at all in its belief system, which goes beck to the point there is no real reason for you to need to believe in a deity. You fail to grasp that such a belief in a diety is redundent. There is no necessity to believe in a deity as your life does not require this why at every turn you cannot answer this question  I have posed to you Veya, where in fact you are actually backing my point and even fail to see why you are doing so.
So your belief is in a next life, this again this belief does not require the necessity to believe in a deity, the belief of a next life does not even require you to need to believe a diety or deities exist.

So you have just backed my question, as you actually have nbo real need tol believe in any gods, your purpose in liofe and your beliefs in a new life, do not require that you do need to believe

YES AND ???? confused confused confused this is why i don't understand where this goes I agree YOU DO NOT NEED TO, it is only if you want to because you feel like it

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri May 15, 2015 9:41 am

I believed in reincarnation before polytheism
So the gods are added to reincarnation not the other way round

AND "polytheist reincarnation where deities can also be reincarnated" is the very similar to 'the dreaming' followed by Aboriginals

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Post by Guest on Fri May 15, 2015 9:43 am

You are still not answering the point at all and get sensitive now to your belief system, this is why faith is such a bad concept in regards to deities.

Simple concept.

If a faith does not require the need for the existance of a deity, then there is no need to believe in that deity. Your life does not require a belief to even believe. It has made the need to believe in a God or Gods redundent.

Seriously youi can spout off about Saturn and Jupiter all complete myths you believe in as some form of deity, but that is just that, they are Giant Gas clouds.

Your belief is that life is one long journey that never ends, I cannot think of anything more disappointing really, in your concept of continual next lifes, because with each new one, you are not aware oif the last and thus your continued existance renews again without the knowledge of the past. This lost where this knowledge should be maintained to help learn in the next life. You are basically born as a child each time having to learn again. All this of course does not require the need to believe in a pantheon of Gods system.

Understand, if your belief in a next life is what you believe in and that belief does not necessitate having to believe in this for this to happen, then you then have no reason to believe in a deity, because the next life concept does not require a belief in deities for this to exist.

Hence why you cannot get your head around this Veya.

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Post by Guest on Fri May 15, 2015 9:45 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

Yoiu are making my point.
You state clearly you have no reason to believe yet do believe.
It does not matter what you think you understand about spirituality or now reincarnation, which is again a belief that does not require a deity at all in its belief system, which goes beck to the point there is no real reason for you to need to believe in a deity. You fail to grasp that such a belief in a diety is redundent. There is no necessity to believe in a deity as your life does not require this why at every turn you cannot answer this question  I have posed to you Veya, where in fact you are actually backing my point and even fail to see why you are doing so.
So your belief is in a next life, this again this belief does not require the necessity to believe in a deity, the belief of a next life does not even require you to need to believe a diety or deities exist.

So you have just backed my question, as you actually have nbo real need tol believe in any gods, your purpose in liofe and your beliefs in a new life, do not require that you do need to believe

YES AND ???? confused confused confused  this is why i don't understand where this goes I agree YOU DO NOT NEED TO, it is only if you want to because you feel like it



Excellent, so you get my point at last mate


All the best.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri May 15, 2015 9:47 am

I personally think the first hominid who made something like a stone tool got around to wondering who made the ground and the sky, and it just sort of snowballed from that point Smile

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Post by Guest on Fri May 15, 2015 9:49 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:I personally think the first hominid who made something like a stone tool got around to wondering who made the ground and the sky, and it just sort of snowballed from that point Smile

That makes complete sense to me
Am not trying to insult anyone here either.
It just really hit me last night that the belief of a God or Gods, that does not require you to believe in their existance makes the need to believe in them redundent.

Veya has a very interesting concept of the next life's and I do like his idea of a pantheon of deities.

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri May 15, 2015 10:14 am

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

Yoiu are making my point.
You state clearly you have no reason to believe yet do believe.
It does not matter what you think you understand about spirituality or now reincarnation, which is again a belief that does not require a deity at all in its belief system, which goes beck to the point there is no real reason for you to need to believe in a deity. You fail to grasp that such a belief in a diety is redundent. There is no necessity to believe in a deity as your life does not require this why at every turn you cannot answer this question  I have posed to you Veya, where in fact you are actually backing my point and even fail to see why you are doing so.
So your belief is in a next life, this again this belief does not require the necessity to believe in a deity, the belief of a next life does not even require you to need to believe a diety or deities exist.

So you have just backed my question, as you actually have nbo real need tol believe in any gods, your purpose in liofe and your beliefs in a new life, do not require that you do need to believe

YES AND ???? confused confused confused  this is why i don't understand where this goes I agree YOU DO NOT NEED TO, it is only if you want to because you feel like it



Excellent, so you get my point at last mate


All the best.

hmm scratch Didge that is not what this symbol means confused confused confused confused
Or maybe I do get your point which is why I dont understand the the question confused

I figure spiritual belief is an intellectual exercise, it serves no more immediate purpose than quantum physics... but hey sometime in the future someone might figure something out Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods - Page 2 2190311264

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Post by Guest on Fri May 15, 2015 10:19 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:



Excellent, so you get my point at last mate


All the best.

hmm scratch  Didge that is not what this symbol means confused confused confused confused
Or maybe I do get your point which is why I dont understand the the question confused

I figure spiritual belief is an intellectual exercise, it serves no more immediate purpose than quantum physics... but hey sometime in the future someone might figure something out Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods - Page 2 2190311264

There is much I find okay with spitiruality which again does not require a belief system or more to the point a religious sense and can be very good for people.


Oh light is a symbol of knowledge, as for example why do we use a light bulb for a new idea thought of? In Freemasonary light is a symbol for the search of knowledge, so in a way I am being naughty using a belief system and no I am not a freemason either lol.

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri May 15, 2015 10:21 am

Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:I personally think the first hominid who made something like a stone tool got around to wondering who made the ground and the sky, and it just sort of snowballed from that point Smile

That makes complete sense to me
Am not trying to insult anyone here either.
It just really hit me last night that the belief of a God or Gods, that does not require you to believe in their existance makes the need to believe in them redundent.

Veya has a very interesting concept of the next life's and I do like his idea of a pantheon of deities.

You see I disagree with the idea that it happened when man made a tool...... i think it happened long before then.

Animals like lions and crocodiles are only active a couple of hours a day.. they might spend the rest of the time in deep meditation Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods - Page 2 2190311264
And plants have all day to meditate Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods - Page 2 4214183177

I like Xenophanes idea that If horses had gods they would say they looked like horses Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods - Page 2 202592697
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophanes

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri May 15, 2015 10:23 am

Oh light is a symbol of knowledge, as for example why do we use a light bulb for a new idea thought of? In Freemasonary light is a symbol for the search of knowledge, so in a way I am being naughty using a belief system and no I am not a freemason either lol.

I like that Smile

Interesting Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods - Page 2 202592697 didn't really think of that but Light has been a symbol for knowledge since pretty much forever .

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Post by Guest on Fri May 15, 2015 10:25 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Lucifer Angel of Light wrote:

That makes complete sense to me
Am not trying to insult anyone here either.
It just really hit me last night that the belief of a God or Gods, that does not require you to believe in their existance makes the need to believe in them redundent.

Veya has a very interesting concept of the next life's and I do like his idea of a pantheon of deities.

You see I disagree with the idea that it happened when man made a tool...... i think it happened long before then.

Animals like lions and crocodiles are only active a couple of hours a day.. they might spend the rest of the time in deep meditation Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods - Page 2 2190311264
And plants have all day to meditate Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods - Page 2 4214183177

I like Xenophanes idea that If horses had gods they would say they looked like horses  Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods - Page 2 202592697
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophanes

I like Victors concept of we are Gods in the making but he needs to define what this deity or creator is as he believes in, because how can we obtain something we have no uinderstanding of. Again to me supreme intelligence would be devoid of  emotions. This could just be one giant simulation game we are all in and when you die in the game you start off as a new character. Sometimes there is a blip with the game, and you have memmories of playing the part of a previous character, which would explain pat life experinces. Near death experinces would again be explained by being programmed into the simulation. Thought provoking and is not new this concept, but it is a very interesting one.

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Post by Guest on Fri May 15, 2015 10:29 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Oh light is a symbol of knowledge, as for example why do we use a light bulb for a new idea thought of? In Freemasonary light is a symbol for the search of knowledge, so in a way I am being naughty using a belief system and no I am not a freemason either lol.

I like that Smile

Interesting  Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods - Page 2 202592697  didn't really think of that but Light has been a symbol for knowledge since pretty much forever .

It has indeed and I like symbolism.

The Serpent is a very old symbol and has varies meanings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(symbolism)

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri May 15, 2015 10:41 am

Yeah that part of the reason i added it to my pantheon cheers
since it appears in everything from Aboriginals, Egypt, Norse and South Americas .... and Chinese dragons are pretty serpent like Wink

I find the Norse interesting since I don't think there is many snakes where it is that cold Suspect
I think the Primal Snake God may have developed when we were still in the trees. large snakes are great predators in the mind of small/medium primates. And with the exception of Aboriginals it is almost always an ancient power supplanted by more human-like gods. Norse and Egyptian both have it as the 'hell-like' equivalent something imprisoned by the gods that still eats souls if it get the opportunity....
but it could also be the venom thing it does some like they are naturally 'blessed'... if you have only just worked out pointy sticks Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods - Page 2 2190311264

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Post by Guest on Fri May 15, 2015 10:56 am

veya_victaous wrote:Yeah that part of the reason i added it to my pantheon cheers
since it appears in everything from Aboriginals, Egypt, Norse and South Americas ....  and Chinese dragons are pretty serpent like Wink

I find the Norse interesting since I don't think there is many snakes where it is that cold Suspect
I think the Primal Snake God may have developed when we were still in the trees. large snakes are great predators in the mind of small/medium primates. And with the exception of Aboriginals it is almost always an ancient power supplanted by more human-like gods. Norse and Egyptian both have it as the 'hell-like' equivalent something imprisoned by the gods that still eats souls if it get the opportunity....
but it could also be the venom thing it does some like they are naturally 'blessed'... if you have only just worked out pointy sticks Just had an epiphany on those who believe in a non-religious God or Gods - Page 2 2190311264

Yeah the Morse deities are very interesting, as much as the Greeks are, but to me, the most fascinating of all is the belief in the flesh and blood gods of the Sumerians.
There you have to deities Enki and Enlil who's stories and found very much in the early parts of the bible. The creation, the flood etc. The thing is Enki is the good God in their myths who creates man and tries to save mankind in the flood, and yet is portrayed as the serpent in the Bible. We both know the Serpent thoough is a symbol of knowledge and medicine of which ENKI was perceived as such in the Sumerian myths. You then have Enlil, very much at odds with humans and shows similarities to the barbarism of the biblical deity in the old testament.


http://www.halexandria.org/dward184.htm

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