Faith vs. Facts

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Post by Guest on Sun May 03, 2015 4:19 pm

First topic message reminder :

MOST of us find it mind-boggling that some people seem willing to ignore the facts — on climate change, on vaccines, on health care — if the facts conflict with their sense of what someone like them believes. “But those are the facts,” you want to say. “It seems weird to deny them.”
And yet a broad group of scholars is beginning to demonstrate that religious belief and factual belief are indeed different kinds of mental creatures. People process evidence differently when they think with a factual mind-set rather than with a religious mind-set. Even what they count as evidence is different. And they are motivated differently, based on what they conclude. On what grounds do scholars make such claims?


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/opinion/sunday/t-m-luhrmann-faith-vs-facts.html?_r=3

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 10:46 am

Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

of course i wouldn't but times have changed i assume you do not believe the koran either, do you trust to science that creates weapons that can destroy the planet?

Next question for the test.

Do you believe your God then is infallible?

do you believe science is infallible? so is it ok to believe science that is making weapons capable of destroying the planet, i didn't see your answer...

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 10:49 am

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:

Next question for the test.

Do you believe your God then is infallible?

do you believe science is infallible? so is it ok to believe science that is making weapons capable of destroying the planet, i didn't see your answer...


For the record I am athiest as you well know already.
It is mankind itself that has the capability to destroy the planet and this will also be an interesting aspect to test also on your faith.


You wanted me to test this and now when it is tested you are deflecting from the test.
Do you want to bow out or continue?
 
Either way I am happy, but it seems clear you are running scared from my test.
 
You need to make up your mind.

Do you believe your God then is infallible?

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 10:53 am

Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

do you believe science is infallible? so is it ok to believe science that is making weapons capable of destroying the planet, i didn't see your answer...


For the record I am athiest as you well know already.
It is mankind itself that has the capability to destroy the planet and this will also be an interesting aspect to test also on your faith.


You wanted me to test this and now when it is tested you are deflecting from the test.
Do you want to bow out or continue?
 
Either way I am happy, but it seems clear you are running scared from my test.
 
You need to make up your mind.

Do you believe your God then is infallible?

you are not testing it fairly you are testing it on your morals, do your morals agree that science making weapons of mass destruction , killer viruses etc ok, if you judge that by the sane standards you would be against science.
besides that can you tell me the last child that was killed for being bad??
have you heard of the new testament??

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 10:57 am

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:


For the record I am athiest as you well know already.
It is mankind itself that has the capability to destroy the planet and this will also be an interesting aspect to test also on your faith.


You wanted me to test this and now when it is tested you are deflecting from the test.
Do you want to bow out or continue?
 
Either way I am happy, but it seems clear you are running scared from my test.
 
You need to make up your mind.

Do you believe your God then is infallible?

you are not testing it fairly you are testing it on your morals, do your morals agree that science making weapons of mass destruction , killer viruses etc ok, if you judge that by the sane standards you would be against science.
besides that can you tell me the last child that was killed for being bad??
have you heard of the new testament??

Fairly?

Sorry but this is a testable method to test your Bible and the deity found within, which you challenged me on. If you think it is unfair, then you lack faith in your beliefs. Now you can continue to offer me excuses, which says to me you know I can challenge your faith, or we can continue with the test. It is again up to you. Now stop deflecting with points I am happy to address after or bow out, the choice is yours.


Do you believe your God then is infallible?


This is now your last chance, if you fail to answer then as I say, I have easily challenged and tested your bible and you have failed to defend it.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 11:01 am

Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

you are not testing it fairly you are testing it on your morals, do your morals agree that science making weapons of mass destruction , killer viruses etc ok, if you judge that by the sane standards you would be against science.
besides that can you tell me the last child that was killed for being bad??
have you heard of the new testament??

Fairly?

Sorry but this is a testable method to test your Bible and the deity found within, which you challenged me on. If you think it is unfair, then you lack faith in your beliefs. Now you can continue to offer me excuses, which says to me you know I can challenge your faith, or we can continue with the test. It is again up to you. Now stop deflecting with points I am happy to address after or bow out, the choice is yours.


Do you believe your God then is infallible?


This is now your last chance, if you fail to answer then as I say, I have easily challenged and tested your bible and you have failed to defend it.

so again if your test is on morals does the people who died in such places as hiroshima and nagasaki show science should not be believed, the mustard gas of the first war, the chemical weapons we have now, is science right.

is science fallible..

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 11:04 am

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:

Fairly?

Sorry but this is a testable method to test your Bible and the deity found within, which you challenged me on. If you think it is unfair, then you lack faith in your beliefs. Now you can continue to offer me excuses, which says to me you know I can challenge your faith, or we can continue with the test. It is again up to you. Now stop deflecting with points I am happy to address after or bow out, the choice is yours.


Do you believe your God then is infallible?


This is now your last chance, if you fail to answer then as I say, I have easily challenged and tested your bible and you have failed to defend it.

so again if your test is on morals does the people who died in such places as hiroshima and nagasaki show science should not be believed, the mustard gas of the first war, the chemical weapons we have now, is science right.

is science fallible..

So you failed to follow through with the test.

That shows you lack faith as I have stated before, as you should be able to defend your faith and yet you cannot answer a simple question.

You have shown yourself to fail here at the first hurdle when your faith is challenged.

Not a good start to convince people of your beliefs is it.

Thanks I knew you would fail when tested.

As to science, I have already stated that science can be wrong and it is normally science that proves when it is wrong.


As to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, do you know how many people the Japanese predicted would die if their nation was invaded?
You want to test the morals here, so lets do so as you failed in the last test.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 11:15 am

Seems you may not well know.


Vice Admiral Takijirō Ōnishi, predicted up to 20 million Japanese deaths if their home Islands were invaded. Others range from 11 to 30 million. This is not including Allied casulaties, which were estimated to be around a million.
So what is the lesser evil here?
Dropping the bombs, or invading the Islands?

Now I have work to do.

Have a nice day.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 1:52 pm

Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

so again if your test is on morals does the people who died in such places as hiroshima and nagasaki show science should not be believed, the mustard gas of the first war, the chemical weapons we have now, is science right.

is science fallible..

So you failed to follow through with the test.

That shows you lack faith as I have stated before, as you should be able to defend your faith and yet you cannot answer a simple question.

You have shown yourself to fail here at the first hurdle when your faith is challenged.

Not a good start to convince people of your beliefs is it.

Thanks I knew you would fail when tested.

As to science, I have already stated that science can be wrong and it is normally science that proves when it is wrong.


As to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, do you know how many people the Japanese predicted would die if their nation was invaded?
You want to test the morals here, so lets do so as you failed in the last test.

so you defend science for its weapons of mass destruction, throughout the ages and still being used and condemn the bible on moral grounds...
when was the last child murdered by a bible believing person for not doing as they were told..
when was the last person killed by a weapon that science made possible.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 1:58 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:

So you failed to follow through with the test.

That shows you lack faith as I have stated before, as you should be able to defend your faith and yet you cannot answer a simple question.

You have shown yourself to fail here at the first hurdle when your faith is challenged.

Not a good start to convince people of your beliefs is it.

Thanks I knew you would fail when tested.

As to science, I have already stated that science can be wrong and it is normally science that proves when it is wrong.


As to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, do you know how many people the Japanese predicted would die if their nation was invaded?
You want to test the morals here, so lets do so as you failed in the last test.

so you defend science for its weapons of mass destruction, throughout the ages and still being used and condemn the bible on moral grounds...
when was the last child murdered by a bible believing person for not doing as they were told..
when was the last person killed by a weapon that science made possible.


Again you cannot answer a simple question.

To save lives sometimes you have to take life.

Vice Admiral Takijirō Ōnishi, predicted up to 20 million Japanese deaths if their home Islands were invaded. Others range from 11 to 30 million. This is not including Allied casulaties, which were estimated to be around a million.
So what is the lesser evil here?
Dropping the bombs, or invading the Islands?



So again what is the lesser of two evils?

I am not concerned when the last person killed their child due to the bible which actually further proves my point, as why is that if you think your deity is infallible?
Would that not offer proof then that clearly many do not agree with their God?

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 2:02 pm

Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

so you defend science for its weapons of mass destruction, throughout the ages and still being used and condemn the bible on moral grounds...
when was the last child murdered by a bible believing person for not doing as they were told..
when was the last person killed by a weapon that science made possible.


Again you cannot answer a simple question.

To save lives sometimes you have to take life.

Vice Admiral Takijirō Ōnishi, predicted up to 20 million Japanese deaths if their home Islands were invaded. Others range from 11 to 30 million. This is not including Allied casulaties, which were estimated to be around a million.
So what is the lesser evil here?
Dropping the bombs, or invading the Islands?



So again what is the lesser of two evils?

I am not concerned when the last person killed their child due to the bible which actually further proves my point, as why is that if you think your deity is infallible?
Would that not offer proof then that clearly many do not agree with their God?

but you are not concerned that people have killed millions in an attempt to save lives, this sounds like we are going to war to prevent war quote..lol

and do you think making sure kids respect others and behave would save lives...

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 2:06 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:


Again you cannot answer a simple question.

To save lives sometimes you have to take life.

Vice Admiral Takijirō Ōnishi, predicted up to 20 million Japanese deaths if their home Islands were invaded. Others range from 11 to 30 million. This is not including Allied casulaties, which were estimated to be around a million.
So what is the lesser evil here?
Dropping the bombs, or invading the Islands?



So again what is the lesser of two evils?

I am not concerned when the last person killed their child due to the bible which actually further proves my point, as why is that if you think your deity is infallible?
Would that not offer proof then that clearly many do not agree with their God?

but you are not concerned that people have killed millions in an attempt to save lives, this sounds like we are going to war to prevent war quote..lol

and do you think making sure kids respect others and behave would save lives...


If millions have been saved at the cost of hundreds of thousands, then the lesser evil is to bomb both cities. Both are morally wrong, but one is required to save the lives of millions.
As to kids respecting its up to them, what is important is that you would not do as commanded in the bible, where your deity is seen as infallible. That means you disgaree with your deity. Or your deity has changed his mind, which would then make him previously wrong.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 2:13 pm

Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

but you are not concerned that people have killed millions in an attempt to save lives, this sounds like we are going to war to prevent war quote..lol

and do you think making sure kids respect others and behave would save lives...


If millions have been saved at the cost of hundreds of thousands, then the lesser evil is to bomb both cities. Both are morally wrong, but one is required to save the lives of millions.
As to kids respecting its up to them, what is important is that you would not do as commanded in the bible, where your deity is seen as infallible. That means you disgaree with your deity. Or your deity has changed his mind, which would then make him previously wrong.

so it is not about truth or lies it is about morals, how did they know how many would die, how many would have died in the first world war without the use of mustard gas?? is that morally ok?

you cannot argue the truth of a faith based on morals or any truth on that matter.

was hitler right in starting the second world war all he wanted to do was unite the world then there would be no more wars saving billions of lives.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 2:21 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:


If millions have been saved at the cost of hundreds of thousands, then the lesser evil is to bomb both cities. Both are morally wrong, but one is required to save the lives of millions.
As to kids respecting its up to them, what is important is that you would not do as commanded in the bible, where your deity is seen as infallible. That means you disgaree with your deity. Or your deity has changed his mind, which would then make him previously wrong.

so it is not about truth or lies it is about morals, how did they know how many would die, how many would have died in the first world war without the use of mustard gas?? is that morally ok?

you cannot argue the truth of a faith based on morals or any truth on that matter.

was hitler right in starting the second world war all he wanted to do was unite the world then there would be no more wars saving billions of lives.


No its about fallacies, contradictions as easily shown by the tests.
No war is morally good, it is always bad, but sometimes war is necessary to stop the bigger evil, like nazism and the Japanese who killed millions also. So are you willing to say we should have allowed them to carry on killing to the point millions more would have died or should we have done what we did to stop them?
So hundreds of thousands died, the alternative would be millions to end the war with Japan. What do you choose?

Hitler wanted to create living space, it was called lebensraum at the expense of the populations living there. The plan was to starve, shoot, work to death millions, so he had no intention of uniting the world but exterminating groups of people. Not sure what history who are reading but it is baseless and ignores all events that happened.

I have easily shown how your own beliefs contradict with what is written, you either accept that or you do not. Not concerned either way.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 3:05 pm

Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

so it is not about truth or lies it is about morals, how did they know how many would die, how many would have died in the first world war without the use of mustard gas?? is that morally ok?

you cannot argue the truth of a faith based on morals or any truth on that matter.

was hitler right in starting the second world war all he wanted to do was unite the world then there would be no more wars saving billions of lives.


No its about fallacies, contradictions as easily shown by the tests.
No war is morally good, it is always bad, but sometimes war is necessary to stop the bigger evil, like nazism and the Japanese who killed millions also. So are you willing to say we should have allowed them to carry on killing to the point millions more would have died or should we have done what we did to stop them?
So hundreds of thousands died, the alternative would be millions to end the war with Japan. What do you choose?

Hitler wanted to create living space, it was called lebensraum at the expense of the populations living there. The plan was to starve, shoot, work to death millions, so he had no intention of uniting the world but exterminating groups of people. Not sure what history who are reading but it is baseless and ignores all events that happened.

I have easily shown how your own beliefs contradict with what is written, you either accept that or you do not. Not concerned either way.

I know what hitler started but he forgot to stop, do his correct in his mind morals, justify his actions, morals are no way to argue what is true or false.
please show the contradictions it will good to see them.
to say the bible has been scrutinised for over 2000 years i think it stands up well, how many science facts have stood beyond that time. not the time makes it right or wrong I just wonder how long science facts stand.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 3:08 pm

No Hitler was stopped, there is a major difference where he would not have stopped until he had accomplished the extermination of groups of people.

The bible does not stand up well, so again lets place this to the test.
Do you agree war is morally wrong?
Is genocide morally wrong?

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 3:13 pm

Nemesis wrote:No Hitler was stopped, there is a major difference where he would not have stopped until he had accomplished the extermination of groups of people.

The bible does not stand up well, so again lets place this to the test.
Do you agree war is morally wrong?
Is genocide morally wrong?

still waiting to hear the contradictions to be honest...

i thought we have just seen that judging something on moral grounds is a sticky wicket.
is war correct to defend your nation?

if everyone of a race carried a lethal disease would it be right to wipe them out to save everyone else..?

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 3:17 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:No Hitler was stopped, there is a major difference where he would not have stopped until he had accomplished the extermination of groups of people.

The bible does not stand up well, so again lets place this to the test.
Do you agree war is morally wrong?
Is genocide morally wrong?

still waiting to hear the contradictions to be honest...

i thought we have just seen that judging something on moral grounds is a sticky wicket.
is war correct to defend your nation?

if everyone of a race carried a lethal disease would it be right to wipe them out to save everyone else..?

Here we go again, I am trying to show you the contradictions.

So again:

Do you agree war is morally wrong?
Is genocide morally wrong?

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 3:20 pm

Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

still waiting to hear the contradictions to be honest...

i thought we have just seen that judging something on moral grounds is a sticky wicket.
is war correct to defend your nation?

if everyone of a race carried a lethal disease would it be right to wipe them out to save everyone else..?

Here we go again, I am trying to show you the contradictions.

So again:

Do you agree war is morally wrong?
Is genocide morally wrong?

really you are are you ok..

no war is not morally wrong...

no genocide is not morally wrong...

is making weapons of mass destruction morally wrong...?
is making chemical weapons morally wrong...?

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 3:23 pm

You just said the following:

no war is not morally wrong...

no genocide is not morally wrong...


That means you agree war is okay and genocide is okay.
Can you clarify this as read your replies again as this is important.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 3:27 pm

Nemesis wrote:You just said the following:

no war is not morally wrong...

no genocide is not morally wrong...


That means you agree war is okay and genocide is okay.
Can you clarify this as read your replies again as this is important.

I think you need to understand that morals are a personal thing...

war is not morally wrong when the allies resisted the axis forces it was to protect their nations.

if a certain race of people had an incurable and spreadable disease to protect the world their erradication would be morally correct.

remember how you said the a bombs allegedly saved lots of lives?

I missed your answers are chemical weapons and weapons of mass destruction morally right.?


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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 3:32 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:You just said the following:

no war is not morally wrong...

no genocide is not morally wrong...


That means you agree war is okay and genocide is okay.
Can you clarify this as read your replies again as this is important.

I think you need to understand that morals are a personal thing...

war is not morally wrong when the allies resisted the axis forces it was to protect their nations.

if a certain race of people had an incurable and spreadable disease to protect the world their erradication would be morally correct.

remember how you said the a bombs allegedly saved lots of lives?

I missed your answers are chemical weapons and weapons of mass destruction morally right.?


Can you provide me with an example of where it has been needed to wipe out an ethnic group of people because of an incurable illness?

So you are saying that it is morally okay to commit to war.

What if there is no justification for their to be a war?

How about when in your bible this deity commands the israelites to commit Herem on for example the Amorites? Did they have an incurable illness or were attacking any other nations or the israelites themselves? I am using your exclusion for moral justification here to commit genocide and war.

As to your question, no weapon that is created to murder people is morally right.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 3:37 pm

Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

I think you need to understand that morals are a personal thing...

war is not morally wrong when the allies resisted the axis forces it was to protect their nations.

if a certain race of people had an incurable and spreadable disease to protect the world their erradication would be morally correct.

remember how you said the a bombs allegedly saved lots of lives?

I missed your answers are chemical weapons and weapons of mass destruction morally right.?


Can you provide me with an example of where it has been needed to wipe out an ethnic group of people because of an incurable illness?

So you are saying that it is morally okay to commit to war.

What if there is no justification for their to be a war?

How about when in your bible this deity commands the israelites to commit Herem on for example the Amorites? Did they have an incurable illness or were attacking any other nations or the israelites themselves? I am using your exclusion for moral justification here to commit genocide and war.

As to your question, no weapon that is created to murder people is morally right.

so science is morally wrong so how can you trust it???


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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 3:39 pm

Oh for fuck sake, so you have no answer again.

Debate over not wasting my time any further, when you refuse to answer.

Have a good day

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 3:42 pm

Nemesis wrote:Oh for fuck sake, so you have no answer again.

Debate over not wasting my time any further, when you refuse to answer.

Have a good day

I have given you the same answer all along, to argue whether something is true or false or your own perceived morals is not going to work.

I always have a great day thanks, I hope you have the same.

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Post by eddie on Thu May 07, 2015 6:27 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:
Nemesis wrote:

You can certainly do so if you wished to study in any of these fields by joining such research. To say you do not have access where you can teach yourself the knowledge already gained is nothing more than a copout reason not to.
You like everyone else has the ability to test the methdology of aspects we find in life. For one can you test something simple as love between people by researching and collating information about people in love?

Nope. Love is a feeling not a fact.

Ah, but what is a feeling? It doesn't come from the heart, it comes from the brain, and it's quite scientific really.


Who says?
I don't believe that at all.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu May 07, 2015 6:37 pm

eddie wrote:
Nemesis wrote:
eddie wrote:
Eilzel wrote:In fairness Eds some people dimiss facts that are blindingly obvious- some people say the earth is 6000 years old, this is just a blatant nonsense. There are those who say smoking has no links to cancer, that is idiocy. Questioning evolution too is ultimately just ignoring everything we know. Some things are not open to debate (well they are but we can technically debate anything, but it isn't opinion then, someone is simply wrong).

Les I'm just going to use one of your examples here:

"There are those who say smoking has no links to cancer."

Now while I agree with you, that I believe, yes it does cause cancer, I'm going to ask you....

How,do you KNOW it does?  Is it because that's what we've been told over and over and led to believe?

An inexhaustible amount of research that if you wish to do so you could do so yourself. The point is you would need to research yourself to try and disprove would you not? So you can read the research yourself and see if there is flaws or merits to the research and testing done.

Research. Hmmm. I can only read other's opinions and "facts"
I don't have access to a lab, or my own independent scientist so....???

So, you have to go to logic. You don't have your own lab or the scientific know-how. But lots of people do, and let's take for example the relationship between smoking and cancer. People have studied this all over the world, independently of one another, and come to the same conclusions.

So are they conspiring to make people believe smoking causes cancer? Or are they part of a self-correcting system that inevitably does publish the honest, logical conclusions reached by many independent researchers? Which is more likely?

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 6:38 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:

Research. Hmmm. I can only read other's opinions and "facts"
I don't have access to a lab, or my own independent scientist so....???

So, you have to go to logic. You don't have your own lab or the scientific know-how. But lots of people do, and let's take for example the relationship between smoking and cancer. People have studied this all over the world, independently of one another, and come to the same conclusions.

So are they conspiring to make people believe smoking causes cancer? Or are they part of a self-correcting system that inevitably does publish the honest, logical conclusions reached by many independent researchers? Which is more likely?

we will never know for sure...

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 6:39 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

So, you have to go to logic. You don't have your own lab or the scientific know-how. But lots of people do, and let's take for example the relationship between smoking and cancer. People have studied this all over the world, independently of one another, and come to the same conclusions.

So are they conspiring to make people believe smoking causes cancer? Or are they part of a self-correcting system that inevitably does publish the honest, logical conclusions reached by many independent researchers? Which is more likely?

we will never know for sure...

So by that you are saying they are all conspiring then?

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Post by Raggamuffin on Thu May 07, 2015 6:39 pm

eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Ah, but what is a feeling? It doesn't come from the heart, it comes from the brain, and it's quite scientific really.


Who says?
I don't believe that at all.

Which bit don't you believe?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu May 07, 2015 6:40 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

I think you need to understand that morals are a personal thing...

war is not morally wrong when the allies resisted the axis forces it was to protect their nations.

if a certain race of people had an incurable and spreadable disease to protect the world their erradication would be morally correct.

remember how you said the a bombs allegedly saved lots of lives?

I missed your answers are chemical weapons and weapons of mass destruction morally right.?


Can you provide me with an example of where it has been needed to wipe out an ethnic group of people because of an incurable illness?

So you are saying that it is morally okay to commit to war.

What if there is no justification for their to be a war?

How about when in your bible this deity commands the israelites to commit Herem on for example the Amorites? Did they have an incurable illness or were attacking any other nations or the israelites themselves? I am using your exclusion for moral justification here to commit genocide and war.

As to your question, no weapon that is created to murder people is morally right.

so science is morally wrong so how can you trust it???


Science is neutral. Every example you've cited are actions of people using science. By that logic, a rock is immoral because you can hurt someone with it.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu May 07, 2015 6:40 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:

Research. Hmmm. I can only read other's opinions and "facts"
I don't have access to a lab, or my own independent scientist so....???

So, you have to go to logic. You don't have your own lab or the scientific know-how. But lots of people do, and let's take for example the relationship between smoking and cancer. People have studied this all over the world, independently of one another, and come to the same conclusions.

So are they conspiring to make people believe smoking causes cancer? Or are they part of a self-correcting system that inevitably does publish the honest, logical conclusions reached by many independent researchers? Which is more likely?

we will never know for sure...

But we can assign likelihood to each scenario.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 6:49 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

we will never know for sure...

But we can assign likelihood to each scenario.

we can but not without including bias..

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Post by Lurker on Thu May 07, 2015 8:30 pm

Faith vs. Facts - Page 2 Pro_my10

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu May 07, 2015 8:40 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

we will never know for sure...

But we can assign likelihood to each scenario.

we can but not without including bias..

I don't see where bias enters into it.

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Post by eddie on Thu May 07, 2015 8:58 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

I think you need to understand that morals are a personal thing...

war is not morally wrong when the allies resisted the axis forces it was to protect their nations.

if a certain race of people had an incurable and spreadable disease to protect the world their erradication would be morally correct.

remember how you said the a bombs allegedly saved lots of lives?

I missed your answers are chemical weapons and weapons of mass destruction morally right.?


Can you provide me with an example of where it has been needed to wipe out an ethnic group of people because of an incurable illness?

So you are saying that it is morally okay to commit to war.

What if there is no justification for their to be a war?

How about when in your bible this deity commands the israelites to commit Herem on for example the Amorites? Did they have an incurable illness or were attacking any other nations or the israelites themselves? I am using your exclusion for moral justification here to commit genocide and war.

As to your question, no weapon that is created to murder people is morally right.

so science is morally wrong so how can you trust it???


Science is neutral. Every example you've cited are actions of people using science. By that logic, a rock is immoral because you can hurt someone with it.

Science is neutral?? You,are very brainwashed Ben
Nothing we get told is wver really "neutral"
We are told what they want us to know most of the time!

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Post by stardesk on Thu May 07, 2015 9:05 pm

Oh dear. HF seems to have forgotten, or deliberately avoiding the atrocious genocides by his religious ancestors, the Israelites, on their journey to the so-called promised land. Read the accounts in Numbers and Joshua, and there you read of the great, loving father, Jehovah, instructing the Israelites to kill, kill, and kill again.

It's no good going on about weapons and conflicts. Man has killed man from the very beginning of the evolution of Homo Sapiens, ie:
flint tools, leading to spears, to bows and arrows, knives and swords. Then of course we have the incompetance of God when he supposedly made the Earth. It is flawed and full of faults, killing and maiming thousands of people on a regular basis. Who is the most guilty, I wonder?

If you'd like parts of a thesis I did on the negative side of God, let me know and I'll put some of it in a new topic.

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Post by eddie on Thu May 07, 2015 9:06 pm

Go for it star x
I'm always interested in a different view

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 9:36 pm

stardesk wrote:Oh dear. HF seems to have forgotten, or deliberately avoiding the atrocious genocides by his religious ancestors, the Israelites, on their journey to the so-called promised land. Read the accounts in Numbers and Joshua, and there you read of the great, loving father, Jehovah, instructing the Israelites to kill, kill, and kill again.

It's no good going on about weapons and conflicts. Man has killed man from the very beginning of the evolution of Homo Sapiens, ie:
flint tools, leading to spears, to bows and arrows, knives and swords. Then of course we have the incompetance of God when he supposedly made the Earth. It is flawed and full of faults, killing and maiming thousands of people on a regular basis. Who is the most guilty, I wonder?

If you'd like parts of a thesis I did on the negative side of God, let me know and I'll put some of it in a new topic.

if you bothered to look nemesis was trying to use a moral standpoint to disprove the bible and as i pointed out science has no moral high ground to stand on.

as for the bible the jews were heading towards the promise land and nations stood against them and were destroyed some completely, to me that does not prove the bible to be incorrect.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 9:38 pm

Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

we will never know for sure...

So by that you are saying they are all conspiring then?

no not at all, what I am saying is the average person will never be in possession of many of the facts around a subject, we must all fill in the blanks.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 10:21 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
stardesk wrote:Oh dear. HF seems to have forgotten, or deliberately avoiding the atrocious genocides by his religious ancestors, the Israelites, on their journey to the so-called promised land. Read the accounts in Numbers and Joshua, and there you read of the great, loving father, Jehovah, instructing the Israelites to kill, kill, and kill again.

It's no good going on about weapons and conflicts. Man has killed man from the very beginning of the evolution of Homo Sapiens, ie:
flint tools, leading to spears, to bows and arrows, knives and swords. Then of course we have the incompetance of God when he supposedly made the Earth. It is flawed and full of faults, killing and maiming thousands of people on a regular basis. Who is the most guilty, I wonder?

If you'd like parts of a thesis I did on the negative side of God, let me know and I'll put some of it in a new topic.

if you bothered to look nemesis was trying to use a moral standpoint to disprove the bible and as i pointed out science has no moral high ground to stand on.

as for the bible the jews were heading towards the promise land and nations stood against them and were destroyed some completely, to me that does not prove the bible to be incorrect. 



Actually each time we tested your bible you ducked out of the answers, avoiding them, because you realised my test each time would shows flaw. As to the promise land, God Commanded them to commit Herem, which is to commit genocide and they did not have any incurable illness, which I even allowed you to use as a clause to commit genocide even though you could not provide any such event in history. You gave no justification either for the war on them. It is because of these verses in the bible that the concept of "Holy Genocidal War" was created where people were deemed to allow to be butchered if even a Christian town, if they failed to surrender. Kings were seen as ordained by God and thus to enact his power. So not much moral value there and this again has a god commanding genocide. That places this deity on a par with what Stalin, Hitler, mao, the Japanese did. You also bowed out of the infallible God question, because it showed you disagreed with your god on killing and disobedient child. If you claim it was for the past, that would mean God has changed his mind and thus would originally have made the wrong choice. Thus how can an infallible deity commit a wrong. If he makes one mistake, how many other mistakes does this deity make?

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 10:44 pm

Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

if you bothered to look nemesis was trying to use a moral standpoint to disprove the bible and as i pointed out science has no moral high ground to stand on.

as for the bible the jews were heading towards the promise land and nations stood against them and were destroyed some completely, to me that does not prove the bible to be incorrect. 



Actually each time we tested your bible you ducked out of the answers, avoiding them, because you realised my test each time would shows flaw. As to the promise land, God Commanded them to commit Herem, which is to commit genocide and they did not have any incurable illness, which I even allowed you to use as a clause to commit genocide even though you could not provide any such event in history. You gave no justification either for the war on them. It is because of these verses in the bible that the concept of "Holy Genocidal War" was created where people were deemed to allow to be butchered if even a Christian town, if they failed to surrender. Kings were seen as ordained by God and thus to enact his power. So not much moral value there and this again has a god commanding genocide. That places this deity on a par with what Stalin, Hitler, mao, the Japanese did. You also bowed out of the infallible God question, because it showed you disagreed with your god on killing and disobedient child. If you claim it was for the past, that would mean God has changed his mind and thus would originally have made the wrong choice. Thus how can an infallible deity commit a wrong. If he makes one mistake, how many other mistakes does this deity make?

I didn't duck anything, i merely demonstrated that trying to judge the bible and faith in it from your personal morality is flawed...
you said all war is wrong but you stand by science being right yet science has created weapons making mass destruction possible,

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 10:48 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:



Actually each time we tested your bible you ducked out of the answers, avoiding them, because you realised my test each time would shows flaw. As to the promise land, God Commanded them to commit Herem, which is to commit genocide and they did not have any incurable illness, which I even allowed you to use as a clause to commit genocide even though you could not provide any such event in history. You gave no justification either for the war on them. It is because of these verses in the bible that the concept of "Holy Genocidal War" was created where people were deemed to allow to be butchered if even a Christian town, if they failed to surrender. Kings were seen as ordained by God and thus to enact his power. So not much moral value there and this again has a god commanding genocide. That places this deity on a par with what Stalin, Hitler, mao, the Japanese did. You also bowed out of the infallible God question, because it showed you disagreed with your god on killing and disobedient child. If you claim it was for the past, that would mean God has changed his mind and thus would originally have made the wrong choice. Thus how can an infallible deity commit a wrong. If he makes one mistake, how many other mistakes does this deity make?

I didn't duck anything, i merely demonstrated that trying to judge the bible and faith in it from your personal morality is flawed...
you said all war is wrong but you stand by science being right yet science has created weapons making mass destruction possible,



Science does not create wars people do, people use science to make weapons, science does not make weapons itself, so no my views were not flawed because you are making an illogical assertion as if science is an entity of which it is not. So you did duck out of the questions as seen only one did you answer that you would not kill a child for being disobedient, that was it. All wars are wrong, in that people die, but sometimes they are justifiable for example to fight a war against the Nazi's and the Japanese in WW2. There was no justification for the genocide that the biblical deity commanded.

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Post by Guest on Thu May 07, 2015 10:52 pm

In fact if anything the biblical deity could easily be described as a terrorist for killing the first born of Egypt, murdering children, to force the Pharaoh to release the Israelite from captivity.

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Post by veya_victaous on Thu May 07, 2015 11:20 pm

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

I think you need to understand that morals are a personal thing...

war is not morally wrong when the allies resisted the axis forces it was to protect their nations.

if a certain race of people had an incurable and spreadable disease to protect the world their erradication would be morally correct.

remember how you said the a bombs allegedly saved lots of lives?

I missed your answers are chemical weapons and weapons of mass destruction morally right.?


Can you provide me with an example of where it has been needed to wipe out an ethnic group of people because of an incurable illness?

So you are saying that it is morally okay to commit to war.

What if there is no justification for their to be a war?

How about when in your bible this deity commands the israelites to commit Herem on for example the Amorites? Did they have an incurable illness or were attacking any other nations or the israelites themselves? I am using your exclusion for moral justification here to commit genocide and war.

As to your question, no weapon that is created to murder people is morally right.

so science is morally wrong so how can you trust it???


Science is not a life philosophy...
Atheists claim it as theirs sometimes but they have no right to

Science is just a tool, it is the culmination of mankind mathematically supported hypothesis.
What makes it Science is the mathematics, without the mathematical requirement science is just Original Buddhism (before it became the institution it is today)

Science is not something by which to judge morals, we can build our personal morals from information science gives us but science cares not one way or the other, if you use it make electricity to power a hospital or a bomb to blow it up, no different than any other tool Wink

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri May 08, 2015 12:44 am

eddie wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

I think you need to understand that morals are a personal thing...

war is not morally wrong when the allies resisted the axis forces it was to protect their nations.

if a certain race of people had an incurable and spreadable disease to protect the world their erradication would be morally correct.

remember how you said the a bombs allegedly saved lots of lives?

I missed your answers are chemical weapons and weapons of mass destruction morally right.?


Can you provide me with an example of where it has been needed to wipe out an ethnic group of people because of an incurable illness?

So you are saying that it is morally okay to commit to war.

What if there is no justification for their to be a war?

How about when in your bible this deity commands the israelites to commit Herem on for example the Amorites? Did they have an incurable illness or were attacking any other nations or the israelites themselves? I am using your exclusion for moral justification here to commit genocide and war.

As to your question, no weapon that is created to murder people is morally right.

so science is morally wrong so how can you trust it???


Science is neutral. Every example you've cited are actions of people using science. By that logic, a rock is immoral because you can hurt someone with it.

Science is neutral?? You,are very brainwashed Ben
Nothing we get told is wver really "neutral"
We are told what they want us to know most of the time!

Oh dear ... who are "they"? Smile

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Post by Guest on Fri May 08, 2015 9:25 am

Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

I didn't duck anything, i merely demonstrated that trying to judge the bible and faith in it from your personal morality is flawed...
you said all war is wrong but you stand by science being right yet science has created weapons making mass destruction possible,



Science does not create wars people do, people use science to make weapons, science does not make weapons itself, so no my views were not flawed because you are making an illogical assertion as if science is an entity of which it is not. So you did duck out of the questions as seen only one did you answer that you would not kill a child for being disobedient, that was it. All wars are wrong, in that people die, but sometimes they are justifiable for example to fight a war against the Nazi's and the Japanese in WW2. There was no justification for the genocide that the biblical deity commanded.

faith does not create wars people do.

science has been used to specifically make weapons, arguably ever time man has developed we have come up with better ways to kill.

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Post by Guest on Fri May 08, 2015 9:28 am

veya_victaous wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

so science is morally wrong so how can you trust it???


Science is not a life philosophy...
Atheists claim it as theirs sometimes but they have no right to

Science is just a tool, it is the culmination of mankind mathematically supported hypothesis.
What makes it Science is the mathematics, without the mathematical requirement science is just Original Buddhism (before it became the institution it is today)

Science is not something by which to judge morals, we can build our personal morals from information science gives us but science cares not one way or the other, if you use it make electricity to power a hospital or a bomb to blow it up, no different than any other tool  Wink

science makes decisions that ultimately affect the whole planet, are the masses questioned or even in the loop?
it seems to have been manipulated to such a degree that if science says it is not possible it cannot be, yet claims it can make advances to make what seemed impossible possible.

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Post by Guest on Fri May 08, 2015 9:35 am

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
Nemesis wrote:



Science does not create wars people do, people use science to make weapons, science does not make weapons itself, so no my views were not flawed because you are making an illogical assertion as if science is an entity of which it is not. So you did duck out of the questions as seen only one did you answer that you would not kill a child for being disobedient, that was it. All wars are wrong, in that people die, but sometimes they are justifiable for example to fight a war against the Nazi's and the Japanese in WW2. There was no justification for the genocide that the biblical deity commanded.

faith does not create wars people do.

science has been used to specifically make weapons, arguably ever time man has developed we have come up with better ways to kill.

But people of faith can wrongly believe they are commanded to commit wars.
Again you keep ignoring that in the bible on countless stories, this deity either commands humans or angels to commit violence onto people, of which in many cases humans would not even go to war or kill people over for. Its no good ignoring these parts of the bible unless you are willing to admit parts of the bible are man made.
Science is not an entity, so your views are fundemntally flawed and it is again humans that design and create them. So if we go to the view that your god did exist, he has created them with the ability to design weapons to kill.

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Post by Guest on Fri May 08, 2015 9:37 am

heavenlyfatheragain wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:

Science is not a life philosophy...
Atheists claim it as theirs sometimes but they have no right to

Science is just a tool, it is the culmination of mankind mathematically supported hypothesis.
What makes it Science is the mathematics, without the mathematical requirement science is just Original Buddhism (before it became the institution it is today)

Science is not something by which to judge morals, we can build our personal morals from information science gives us but science cares not one way or the other, if you use it make electricity to power a hospital or a bomb to blow it up, no different than any other tool  Wink

science makes decisions that ultimately affect the whole planet, are the masses questioned or even in the loop?
it seems to have been manipulated to such a degree that if science says it is not possible it cannot be, yet claims it can make advances to make what seemed impossible possible.

What decisions does science make?

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Post by Guest on Fri May 08, 2015 10:14 am

Nemesis wrote:
heavenlyfatheragain wrote:

science makes decisions that ultimately affect the whole planet, are the masses questioned or even in the loop?
it seems to have been manipulated to such a degree that if science says it is not possible it cannot be, yet claims it can make advances to make what seemed impossible possible.

What decisions does science make?

weapons testing, hadron collider building, just the usual stuff, what we should believe about the universe and everything in it..

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