The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

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The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:59 am

This blog - different to my usual blogs - has been written in partnership with the author Mark Pearson. I hope patients will read Mark's account of his transplant as a cautionary tale to the damage that alcohol can cause, and that Doctors will read it and gain an insight into patients' mindsets, and how we can better try to help this group earlier on.


Money. It's all about money. There is never enough in the NHS, and funding cannot match the new technology and ever-increasing cost of new drugs, let alone the challenges of an increasingly unwell and growing population.
The debate on NHS care - free at the point of contact for all patients, versus privatisation - where everything is paid for, continues. Various models have been proposed, and the current series on NHS funding decisions NHS: £2billion & Counting on Channel 4 has highlighted some of these. Novelist Mark Pearson was featured in the first show. He went from receiving international media coverage as a Sunday Times bestselling author with James Patterson, to two years later being admitted to hospital for an alcohol-related liver transplant.

Mark is the new type of alcoholic patient that doctors now see. The image of all alcoholics as dishevelled down and outs, swigging vodka or extra-strength cider on a park bench are no longer accurate. As well as increasing numbers of younger patients developing issues with their liver as a result of binge drinking, there is a group of patients whom Mark represents. These are often middle-aged individuals, many of whom do not consider themselves to be alcoholics. They have drunk moderate amounts, consistently, for most of their adult lives. Sometimes socially; often a (generous) glass or two or more with dinner each night. Because they do not wake up craving a drink, and their drink of choice is "palatable" alcohol, they do not associate themselves or conform to the normal perception of an alcoholic. These patients present with raised blood pressure, or raised cholesterol levels. They might have this picked up on an annual check-up, or a work medical. As part of these, patients are asked how much they drink.

Most patients underestimate their alcohol intake, and the concept of units of alcohol is poorly understood. Home measures are inevitably more generous than pub measures. Sometime validated screening questions are asked to try and pick up this group:
"Have you ever felt you should cut down on your drinking? Have people annoyed you by criticising your drinking? Have you ever felt bad or guilty about your drinking? Have you ever had a drink first thing in the morning to steady your nerves, or to get rid of a hangover?"

Answering yes to two or more of these questions, indicates a potential problem, and is more accurate at detecting alcohol excess than some of the blood tests used. If these questions aren't asked, or the patient doesn't give honest answers, they are often reassured by blood tests done as part of the routine health check. This includes liver function tests - but tellingly does not include the most sensitive test for alcohol related liver damage (γGT) - unless it has been specifically requested by the doctor. So being told your liver function is "normal" doesn't mean it has not been damaged by alcohol. It usually means "you've told us nothing to make us think you have a drink problem, so we have done the standard liver test which won't always pick up alcohol related damage - and that's come back fine". And so the problem goes undiagnosed. Mark had drunk for most of his life, usually beer, sometimes 4-5 pints a night, sometimes only at weekends.Two years before his liver failure was diagnosed, he had some blood tests done which showed a mild anaemia. But his liver function was reported as normal. He had already started to reduce his drinking by then from previous levels, but more because of some weight gain than any worries about his drinking.

"I had gone weeks without drinking. I guess there are lots of definitions of what an alcoholic is. Was I addicted? Not physically, not really mentally. I was habituated that was for sure; I abused alcohol that is also for sure. If the test for addiction is measured in withdrawal terms then I would say I wasn't addicted. The main thing is people seeing that not considering yourself an alcoholic and still drinking enough to kill yourself is possible. It is important to remember that alcohol can play a part in health problems and ultimately death in a myriad of ways. Initially after what I thought was a stomach bug was getting worse, I phoned NHS111 who assured me to just stay in take plenty of fluids and rest up. I hadn't taken any alcohol since before the sickness started and didn't feel any urge to do so. When my symptoms didn't improve after about 10 days, I phoned my GP who sent me for a blood test. Later that afternoon, the phone rang. A phone call that was to change my life. My GP told me how concerned he was about the level of anaemia I was presenting with. I was admitted to hospital and after lots of tests, advised that my liver wasn't working well. I was discharged and told to radically change my lifestyle or there would be serious consequences. At this stage, no mention was made of whether a transplant was in the frame. When it became apparent my liver was continuing to fail, and jaundice levels rising even after eight months with no alcohol, I came to the point shown in the programme. My fiancée had never considered my drinking to be a huge issue either. She was shocked, horrified and completely supportive. Neither of us had any idea I was walking over a cliff."

Mark volunteered to go on the Channel 4 programme, knowing it would trigger debate:

"I felt it was fair for the public to form an opinion. Even if I didn't like what they had to say. Everyone has the right to join in the vital debate about our NHS. It is too simplistic to think it is simply a matter of party lines - as some would have us believe. So if my filming, and the others who agreed to take part in the programme, stimulates useful discussion then it has done a good thing. I knew I was putting myself up as a bogeyman, but the transplant unit asked me to do it, and I was happy to be able to do something for them, however little, in the grand scale of things, it was. If I helped raise awareness and possibly some people considered joining the organ donation scheme - then it would be very churlish to refuse the man, who if it turned out I needed it, would be saving my life. As it turned out that was exactly the case."
What about the issue of money? Does Mark feel he deserved the NHS to pay for his treatment?

"Katie Hopkins made a point on Twitter that people like me who could afford to have caused damage to myself through alcohol, or drugs, or overeating, or smoking, could also afford to pay for the help they consequently need. The issue she raises is one of responsibility and she is right to raise it. In my case it was quite simple, if you drink any alcohol again you will never be put on the transplant list, and if you drink after being transplanted your liver is very much on its own. It's fair! I am not sure how funding will change for the NHS in the future, but at the moment there are only three options - the NHS pays, the NHS doesn't pay and you don't have it done, or you pay privately. The latter is not an option for organ transplants obviously. If a means-tested system allowed for some contribution, to whatever percentage, to the cost of such an operation, few would turn down the opportunity In my case I certainly couldn't have afforded private care even if it was available for transplants. But if there was a choice between having to pay for it or die, then I of course would have sold my house, anything, to have the treatment I needed."

How did Mark feel when he got the call that there was a liver for him?
"I was extremely relieved and extremely saddened. The abstract concept of receiving a donor's organ was abstract no longer. Someone had died and that gave me the chance to live. Strangely I didn't feel scared anymore. I was aware, from being on the assessment process, how much care was going to be taken care of me and how brilliant, dedicated, driven and genuinely caring all the people in the transplant unit are. From Paul Gibbs the Clinical Director, to Neil the Healthcare Assistant. One of the things that became very clear to me very quickly was the shortage of organs that are available. I wasn't a donor card carrier myself for many years and so have no soap box at all to stand on with this issue. In Holland and other countries it is the rule that you choose to opt out of donor schemes rather than in. It is of course for individuals to make their mind up on these issues and it would be hypocritical for me to say what is right or wrong. So I won't. We are all, hopefully, capable of making our own decisions."
And now?

"The silly thing is I have learned that I am no less sociable and gregarious than I was when I was drinking. I still go to the pub and laugh and enjoy people's company. I don't drink but I don't laugh any less, or love any less, or care for people any less. I do still feel guilty, but guilt without action can lend to self-indulgence. So I am doing what I can and doing it as best as I can to make the donor's family not regret their gift. Not drinking for me, and I know I am only speaking for myself, is genuinely the easiest part of the process. Looking back now I can see how stupid I have been. I was aware of the drinking limits but in my opinion they were set very low deliberately. I know I am not alone in badly drinking above the guidelines. But for me I was stupid. Arrogantly so - for example I was aware that GPs sometimes prescribe double the dose of painkillers. So at home I was regularly taking double the dose of Paracetamol that the box stated. I just thought I was doing what the doctors would have done anyway. Not a good thing for your liver either to be put it ridiculously mildly. No excuses. Stupid. It is no exaggeration to say it was the most humbling and yet uplifting experience of my life. I feel a 100% guilty and ashamed, and a 100% grateful and life affirmed. The donor and his family have given me my life and the transplant team made me able to accept that gift. I truly hope they are not disappointed that it was me, should they learn so, and I will do absolutely everything to both treasure and nurture the gift I have been given."

Every patient has a responsibility to safeguard their own health. There are a million ways to find out how to do this, but the NHS cannot enforce healthy living. Ultimately it is the responsibility of each individual. Ignoring the advice on weight, alcohol, smoking, and exercise is no longer an option. In order to continue providing a basic service, tough funding decisions have to be made. It is not only a small group of patients - drug users, alcoholics, whoever you deem it to be - who drain NHS resources; it is all of us by our actions every day. At the current rate, the great NHS safety net may not be there when you need it, or you may find yourself on the receiving end of a decision not to fund your care, based on your health choices. The NHS is a very fragile glass house and no one can afford to throw too many stones.
Mark before
And after his transplant

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Ben Reilly on Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:00 am

Oooh, no ... bad idea. Prohibition (or anything smacking of it) is not going to work. You think people leave countries because of high taxes? Wait till you mess with their bottles.

Of course, if they can't afford to leave or don't want to, they might turn to lovely home remedies like the one described below:

According to the Dec. 26, 1922 edition of the New York Times, five people were killed in the city on Christmas Day from drinking "poisoned rum." That was only the beginning. By 1926, according to Prohibition, by Edward Behr, 750 New Yorkers perished from such poisoning and hundreds of thousands more suffered irreversible injuries including blindness and paralysis. On New Year's Day 1927, 41 people died at New York's Bellevue Hospital from alcohol-related poisonings. Oftentimes, they were drinking industrial methanol, otherwise known as wood alcohol, which was a legal but extremely dangerous poison. One government report said that of 480,000 gallons of liquor confiscated in New York in 1927, nearly all contained poisons.

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1864521_1864524_1864626,00.html

Also, why are revenue solutions always aimed at the poor?



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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:42 am

You are missing the central point here Ben, which is people taking responsiobility for their own bodies which because many people do not it causes unnecessary costs each year to the NHS. That to me was the central message here where the NHS is costing so much more money each year. If people did take better care of themselves you would in fact reduce costs. I do not back the notion of Prohibition, but I certainly back the notion of educating how to look after ouw own bodies. At the end of the day we do not take enough responsibilities with our own bodies.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:18 pm

tax alcohol at the same rate as tobacco.....

when I was a teenager a pint cost roughly the same as 20 cigaretts

so that means a pint should be about £8 now....with shorts at around £12 quid a pop...

then put the tax raised into the NHS....


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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:45 pm

Brasidas wrote:You are missing the central point here Ben, which is people taking responsiobility for their own bodies which because many people do not it causes unnecessary costs each year to the NHS. That to me was the central message here where the NHS is costing so much more money each year. If people did take better care of themselves you would in fact reduce costs. I do not back the notion of Prohibition, but I certainly back the notion of educating how to look after ouw own bodies. At the end of the day we do not take enough responsibilities with our own bodies.

funny how you feel you have the right to tell people how to live their lives Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
The NHS is a service, none of its spending is wasted it takes a greater percentage of revenue because of shrinking revenue more than escalating cost.
the real solution is stop cutting taxes to the rich
tie their money up properly and make an example of companies like HSBC that have aided tax evaders... treat tax evaders like the thieves they are
if they have stolen a million dollars by avoiding paying their rightful tax treat them exactly like you would a common thief that broke into somewhere and stole a million dollars.

and like darkness said if your don't already have 'vice taxes' in place to augment the costs put them in place.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by sassy on Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:57 pm

Tell you what, tax cocaine, George Osborne would pay enought tax to keep the NHS going then.


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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:33 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Brasidas wrote:You are missing the central point here Ben, which is people taking responsiobility for their own bodies which because many people do not it causes unnecessary costs each year to the NHS. That to me was the central message here where the NHS is costing so much more money each year. If people did take better care of themselves you would in fact reduce costs. I do not back the notion of Prohibition, but I certainly back the notion of educating how to look after ouw own bodies. At the end of the day we do not take enough responsibilities with our own bodies.

funny how you feel you have the right to tell people how to live their lives Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
The NHS is a service, none of its spending is wasted it takes a greater percentage of revenue because of shrinking revenue more than escalating cost.
the real solution is stop cutting taxes to the rich
tie their money up properly and make an example of companies like HSBC that have aided tax evaders... treat tax evaders like the thieves they are
if they have stolen a million dollars by avoiding paying their rightful tax treat them exactly like you would a common thief that broke into somewhere and stole a million dollars.

and like darkness said if your don't already have 'vice taxes' in place to augment the costs put them in place.

What an irresponsible answer.
Victor is right about taxes indulgences that cost more to the NHS, of that I very much agree which his views are too soft as by me we tax heavily that which affects health the most and one of these is sugar. The amount of people overweight and some maybe medical but many is by over indulgence.
You and others seek to deflect away from the real issue here. We can debate all day long about who should pay more in taxes, that is just a different issue which even if we agree with you it still does not tackle the issue of people being so selfish with their boidies to the point they do not look after themselves. Which goes back to the central issue of people understanding and taking care of their bodies.
To side track this with an argument on taxes is providing an excuse for people to be irresponsible with their bodies. The key message here is to rectify this issue and you can still tackle the deabte over who pays taxes. The issue of health is one that must start with ourselves and how we look after our bodies. Only when things do go wrong we seek that help, not create an unnecessary need of that help.
Do you understand that simple point Veya?

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:01 pm

why should people do what you tell them too?

someone that injures them self playing sport can easily cost more in medical care than a fat smoking heavy drinker. Simply reality is spend your life eating health and exercising and Break your neck playing rugby You are now a bigger burden on the NHS

And NO, who pays is the issue the only reason why this is the in the media is that the rich want more tax cuts and you already cant affords to give citizens BASIC services because you have cut taxes to the rich too much and let them accumulate all the earning so combined with tax cuts leaves you broke since you killed the middle class. Most extreme example in the western world is London and Sydney is not far behind.

Maybe you don't understand the simple point that your Point is not only stupid brainwashed crap but EVIL. Yeah lets force people into totalitarian no personal freedom fitness regime or deny them health care the RICH need another Bentley he doesn't have a different one for every day of the month yet!!!
You have no POINT!!!! Your point is only acceptable to the Evil selfish freedom hating cap doffer.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:06 pm

veya_victaous wrote:why should people do what you tell them too?

someone that injures them self playing sport can easily cost more in medical care than a fat smoking heavy drinker.  Simply reality is spend your life eating health and exercising and Break your neck playing rugby  You are now a bigger burden on the NHS

And NO, who pays is the issue the only reason why this is the in the media is that the rich want more tax cuts and you already cant affords to give citizens BASIC services because you have cut taxes to the rich too much and let them accumulate all the earning so combined with tax cuts leaves you broke since you killed the middle class. Most extreme example in the western world is London and Sydney is not far behind.

Maybe you don't understand the simple point that your Point is not only stupid brainwashed crap but EVIL. Yeah lets force people into totalitarian no personal freedom fitness regime or deny them health care the RICH need another Bentley he doesn't have a different one for every day of the month yet!!!
You have no POINT!!!! Your point is only acceptable to the Evil selfish freedom hating cap doffer.

Are you having a bubble bath Veya?
Why should people do as they are told too?
Who the fuck made that claim here?

We are talking about people being responsible for themselves with their own health. How on earth is that too much to ask of people who at present in a very high number do not do so?
Seriously, this is what I mean when I say the left sometimes can be utterly clueless.
This is not about a money issue but the very healthy living of people themselves.
How selfish is it Veya, that a person would think, "fuck the consequences of what I am doing to my body, most likely we have the medical know how to fix me." Are you even trying to defend that?
This is about people starting to start taking some responsibilities with their bodies, as it not only affects them but countless others, of what may occur from their irresponsibilities.

You really need to stop thinking about money here and think about what is actually right!

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:20 pm

Brasidas wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:why should people do what you tell them too?

someone that injures them self playing sport can easily cost more in medical care than a fat smoking heavy drinker.  Simply reality is spend your life eating health and exercising and Break your neck playing rugby  You are now a bigger burden on the NHS

And NO, who pays is the issue the only reason why this is the in the media is that the rich want more tax cuts and you already cant affords to give citizens BASIC services because you have cut taxes to the rich too much and let them accumulate all the earning so combined with tax cuts leaves you broke since you killed the middle class. Most extreme example in the western world is London and Sydney is not far behind.

Maybe you don't understand the simple point that your Point is not only stupid brainwashed crap but EVIL. Yeah lets force people into totalitarian no personal freedom fitness regime or deny them health care the RICH need another Bentley he doesn't have a different one for every day of the month yet!!!
You have no POINT!!!! Your point is only acceptable to the Evil selfish freedom hating cap doffer.

Are you having a bubble bath Veya?
Why should people do as they are told too?
Who the fuck made that claim here?

We are talking about people being responsible for themselves with their own health. How on earth is that too much to ask of people who at present in a very high number do not do so? So you want people to Live how you tell them to live, force them into your choice of life for them?
Seriously, this is what I mean when I say the left sometimes can be utterly clueless.
This is not about a money issue but the very healthy living of people themselves. IT is all about money 100% about money if funding was not an issue we could just fix all these things. the whole argument is that people having fun enjoying life costs the NHS money and you dont want people to enjoy themselves if it cost the NHS money
How selfish is it Veya, that a person would think, "fuck the consequences of what I am doing to my body, most likely we have the medical know how to fix me." Are you even trying to defend that? YES they have every right too because it is only averages and REAL numbers SPORTS people cost the most of any group in society but they 'healthy' so no one has a go at the HUGE expense covering their Entirely preventable injuries. Freedom is the Right to make dumb choice if you not hurting anyone else. and having to cover the NHS is not hurting people, anyone the complains about should be kicked out of society for not contributing
This is about people starting to start taking some responsibilities with their bodies, as it not only affects them but countless others, of what may occur from their irresponsibilities.

You really need to stop thinking about money here and think about what is actually right!

what is actually right? that is an opinion.. and YOU don't get to make it for everyone. Freedom is Choice even if those choices are not the wisest.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:33 pm

Right I think its time to award, stupid leftie of the year award to Veya

He thinks by advising people how to live healthly is telling people how to live their lives. Only someone so selfish would think this view point and I will tell you why.
The answer to make an argument against listening to sound reasoning and sense is born from irresponsible disbelief, one not backed by evidence but by anger.
They are annoyed they have no point, so they deflect the point being made.
Again educatiing how people should look after their bodies, is not telling them how to live their lives, but how they can live their lives with less chances of any complications.
If that is wrong, then sorry Veya, then your whole thought process is so backwards, it needs rebooting, because anyone who excuses people from being irresponsible when they have been given every sceintific helalthy advice, is just being plain ignorant as much as  creationist who denies the truth.
You are excusing people being sensible with how they look after thir bodies, by the worst deflection ever. Claiming they are being told, when the truth is they only ever have been advised. You take that gamble in your own hands as many people who are idiotic to think the same, thinking they know better, when they know fuck all. The worst point is because of their stubborness and pigheadedness they then suffer the consequences and become very ill.
At every turn some of the left wish to take responsibility away from those who create this. They look to wrongly blame others, where even worse, it is those who gave the best advise they wish to target.
How fucked up is that?


Last edited by Brasidas on Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:38 pm

I fear this will descend into even more absurd claims countered, so time to end this.,
If Veya does not see the point being made, then I fear nobody came help him understand this.

Happy days as Arsenal won and I shall leave you all to have a fab evening.

Night all

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:57 pm

Brasidas wrote:Right I think its time to award, stupid leftie of the year award to Veya

He thinks by advising people how to live healthly is telling people how to live their lives. Only someone so selfish would think this view point and I will tell you why.
The answer to make an argument against listening to sound reasoning and sense is born from irresponsible disbelief, one not backed by evidence but by anger.
They are annoyed they have no point, so they deflect the point being made.
Again educatiing how people should look after their bodies, is not telling them how to live their lives, but how they can live their lives with less chances of any complications.
If that is wrong, then sorry Veya, then your whole thought process is so backwards, it needs rebooting, because anyone who excuses people from being irresponsible when they have been given every sceintific helalthy advice, is just being plain ignorant as much as  creationist who denies the truth.
You are excusing people being sensible with how they look after thir bodies, by the worst deflection ever. Claiming they are being told, when the truth is they only ever have been advised. You take that gamble in your own hands as many people who are idiotic to think the same, thinking they know better, when they know fuck all. The worst point is because of their stubborness and pigheadedness they then suffer the consequences and become very ill.
At every turn some of the left wish to take responsibility away from those who create this. They look to wrongly blame others, where even worse, it is those who gave the best advise they wish to target.
How fucked up is that?


but it appears Again you LACK of scientific knowledge is the problem, You see most of the claims made in this debate are not backed up by Science
Science says 6 pack abs are unhealthy, And Again reality facts real numbers Sports people cost more per person than Fat, Smokers or Drinkers...

Freedom is the Choice to make mistakes

Quite frankly what some of these health experts claim are the ideal lives sound like Hell to me (and I'm sure some like Cass too) that find good food is an essential part of life. I can also pretty much confident I am as healthy or healthier than you. I can literally swim 5km without an issue.


AND again we do have the medical tech to let people enjoy life and do all the dumb things and fix it later.. BUT that costs money and the rich don't want to pay it and RW thinks it is fairer to let them have the 6th Luxury Sports car or Investment property than make sure people have healthcare.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:01 am

Brasidas wrote:You are missing the central point here Ben, which is people taking responsiobility for their own bodies which because many people do not it causes unnecessary costs each year to the NHS. That to me was the central message here where the NHS is costing so much more money each year. If people did take better care of themselves you would in fact reduce costs. I do not back the notion of Prohibition, but I certainly back the notion of educating how to look after ouw own bodies. At the end of the day we do not take enough responsibilities with our own bodies.

I absolutely agree that people should take responsibility for their health and people who suffer from asthma and who smoke cigarettes are a perfect example of people who don't and end costing the NHS money and the taxpayer with a bill for funds that could be used elsewhere.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:03 am

Need I say anymore.
Point proven, as I do not have to be a health expert to know a concensus of views tells me when something is good or bad for my health, which is backed up by scientific evidence for someone to argue otheriwse being in complete denial. What is worst about this view point is that it has nothing to back their own belief is right but wishes to excuse being just plain ignorant. As if there is some conspiracy to fool the whole world with advice to give them some how the worst advice. I mean anyone who would think that would be a complete idiot, but sadly some people think there is a conspiracy and that the majority of the medical profession is just making it all up apparantly.
This is why this thread and the last few replies is why I would advise anyone never to go to me for advise but to listen to the medical experts. I may be wrong, I warned you, where I could be wrong, but at least I ask you to seek another opinion one better informed than I.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:05 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Brasidas wrote:You are missing the central point here Ben, which is people taking responsiobility for their own bodies which because many people do not it causes unnecessary costs each year to the NHS. That to me was the central message here where the NHS is costing so much more money each year. If people did take better care of themselves you would in fact reduce costs. I do not back the notion of Prohibition, but I certainly back the notion of educating how to look after ouw own bodies. At the end of the day we do not take enough responsibilities with our own bodies.

I absolutely agree that people should take responsibility for their health and people who suffer from asthma and who smoke cigarettes are a perfect example of people who don't and end costing the NHS money and the taxpayer with a bill for funds that could be used elsewhere.

I completely agree Irn, people who smoke are irresponible and the tax put on smoking I backed 100%

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:32 am

Brasidas wrote:You are missing the central point here Ben, which is people taking responsiobility for their own bodies which because many people do not it causes unnecessary costs each year to the NHS. That to me was the central message here where the NHS is costing so much more money each year. If people did take better care of themselves you would in fact reduce costs. I do not back the notion of Prohibition, but I certainly back the notion of educating how to look after ouw own bodies. At the end of the day we do not take enough responsibilities with our own bodies.
no others are trying to take responsibility for others body by dictate what you can and cant do with it ,
no you cant smoke
no you cant drink
no you cant have an abortion
no you cant have a disabled child
no you cant have salt to much causes strokes
sugar causes obesity

ect ect ect
after all these all cost the health service



my mum is 87 smoked since she was 13 ,fought a war ,paid her taxes and stamp nothing wrong with her except dementia i have never known her to be in hospital or ill
my dad who smoked the same died at 67 from a fall not a smoking related cause again i can not remember a time he had health problems

i smoke have done since i was 20 ish i rarely use the health service but i have paid my stamp and taxes

smoking is bad ...no argument
but so is drinking

if we ban everything that could cost he health service what are we left with



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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by sassy on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:42 am

Why bother living if everything is banned?

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:44 am

korban dallas wrote:
Brasidas wrote:You are missing the central point here Ben, which is people taking responsiobility for their own bodies which because many people do not it causes unnecessary costs each year to the NHS. That to me was the central message here where the NHS is costing so much more money each year. If people did take better care of themselves you would in fact reduce costs. I do not back the notion of Prohibition, but I certainly back the notion of educating how to look after ouw own bodies. At the end of the day we do not take enough responsibilities with our own bodies.
no others are trying to take responsibility for others body by dictate what you can and cant do with it ,
no you cant smoke
no you cant drink
no you cant have an abortion
no you cant have a disabled child
no you cant have salt to much causes strokes
sugar causes obesity  

ect ect ect
after all these all cost the health service



my mum is 87 smoked since she was 13 ,fought a war ,paid her taxes and stamp nothing wrong with her except dementia i have never known her to be in hospital or ill
my dad who smoked the same died at 67 from a fall not a smoking related cause again i can not remember a time he had health problems

i smoke have done since i was 20 ish i rarely use the health service but i have paid my stamp and taxes

smoking is bad ...no argument
but so is drinking

if we ban everything that could cost he health service what are we left with



Arew you an idiot?
This is advice.
Do you understand the difference?
Not in one of the above examples does a docter tell you not to but advice it is not in your best interest to in some and in others over use.
Why are people so fucking selfish and so fucking ignorant.???
They claim now advice on what is best is telling them waht to do, even though they ignore this and make complete ---- of themselves.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:51 am

Brasidas wrote:
korban dallas wrote:
Brasidas wrote:You are missing the central point here Ben, which is people taking responsiobility for their own bodies which because many people do not it causes unnecessary costs each year to the NHS. That to me was the central message here where the NHS is costing so much more money each year. If people did take better care of themselves you would in fact reduce costs. I do not back the notion of Prohibition, but I certainly back the notion of educating how to look after ouw own bodies. At the end of the day we do not take enough responsibilities with our own bodies.
no others are trying to take responsibility for others body by dictate what you can and cant do with it ,
no you cant smoke
no you cant drink
no you cant have an abortion
no you cant have a disabled child
no you cant have salt to much causes strokes
sugar causes obesity  

ect ect ect
after all these all cost the health service



my mum is 87 smoked since she was 13 ,fought a war ,paid her taxes and stamp nothing wrong with her except dementia i have never known her to be in hospital or ill
my dad who smoked the same died at 67 from a fall not a smoking related cause again i can not remember a time he had health problems

i smoke have done since i was 20 ish i rarely use the health service but i have paid my stamp and taxes

smoking is bad ...no argument
but so is drinking

if we ban everything that could cost he health service what are we left with



Arew you an idiot?
This is advice.
Do you understand the difference?
Not in one of the above examples does a docter tell you not to but advice it is not in your best interest to in some and in others over use.
Why are people so fucking selfish and so fucking ignorant.???
They claim now advice on what is best is telling them waht to do, even though they ignore this and make complete ---- of themselves.

Like people who suffer from asthma and smoke cigarettes! Completely irresponsible in my opinion and a drain on the NHS.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:57 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Arew you an idiot?
This is advice.
Do you understand the difference?
Not in one of the above examples does a docter tell you not to but advice it is not in your best interest to in some and in others over use.
Why are people so fucking selfish and so fucking ignorant.???
They claim now advice on what is best is telling them waht to do, even though they ignore this and make complete ---- of themselves.

Like people who suffer from asthma and smoke cigarettes! Completely irresponsible in my opinion and a drain on the NHS.


I agree utterly stupid Irn for anyone to do as I once did myself.
Hence why it is such good advice to listen to those who have been stupid do you not agree?
Seriously, this shows the limitations of the left, they seek to gain points off how I was stupid, admit that I was stupid and some tiny tim thinks he can score points off the fact I was naive and wrong to smoke.
That shows this idiot does not carfe about the dabate, but getting one over on the other poster because they are so wound up.
So Irn, where is your pointy now about how I used to smoke and how I admit I was an idiot for doing this?
You gtoing to need to wank off 5 more times?

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:02 am

Brasidas wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Arew you an idiot?
This is advice.
Do you understand the difference?
Not in one of the above examples does a docter tell you not to but advice it is not in your best interest to in some and in others over use.
Why are people so fucking selfish and so fucking ignorant.???
They claim now advice on what is best is telling them waht to do, even though they ignore this and make complete ---- of themselves.

Like people who suffer from asthma and smoke cigarettes! Completely irresponsible in my opinion and a drain on the NHS.


I agree utterly stupid Irn for anyone to do as I once did myself.
Hence why it is such good advice to listen to those who have been stupid do you not agree?
Seriously, this shows the limitations of the left, they seek to gain points off how I was stupid, admit that I was stupid and some tiny tim thinks he can score points off the fact I was naive and wrong to smoke.
That shows this idiot does not carfe about the dabate, but getting one over on the other poster because they are so wound up.
So Irn, where is your pointy now about how I used to smoke and how I admit I was an idiot for doing this?
You gtoing to need to wank off 5 more times?

That's fine Didge and it's as well to remember that whilst you are preaching and hectoring people on their lifestyles because it's not that straightforward, is it..


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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:05 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Brasidas wrote:


I agree utterly stupid Irn for anyone to do as I once did myself.
Hence why it is such good advice to listen to those who have been stupid do you not agree?
Seriously, this shows the limitations of the left, they seek to gain points off how I was stupid, admit that I was stupid and some tiny tim thinks he can score points off the fact I was naive and wrong to smoke.
That shows this idiot does not carfe about the dabate, but getting one over on the other poster because they are so wound up.
So Irn, where is your pointy now about how I used to smoke and how I admit I was an idiot for doing this?
You gtoing to need to wank off 5 more times?

That's fine Didge and it's as well to remember that whilst you are preaching and hectoring people on their lifestyles because it's not that straightforward, is it..



What a crock, your point was on scoring infantile points not caring about the issue.
Everyone now has seen that with their own eyes, because your comments were personal at the fact I used to smoke and that I have asthma.
I can happily admit I was stupid, but you would use that.
Speaks volumes about you Irn son

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:18 am

Brasidas wrote:
korban dallas wrote:
no others are trying to take responsibility for others body by dictate what you can and cant do with it ,
no you cant smoke
no you cant drink
no you cant have an abortion
no you cant have a disabled child
no you cant have salt to much causes strokes
sugar causes obesity  

ect ect ect
after all these all cost the health service



my mum is 87 smoked since she was 13 ,fought a war ,paid her taxes and stamp nothing wrong with her except dementia i have never known her to be in hospital or ill
my dad who smoked the same died at 67 from a fall not a smoking related cause again i can not remember a time he had health problems

i smoke have done since i was 20 ish i rarely use the health service but i have paid my stamp and taxes

smoking is bad ...no argument
but so is drinking

if we ban everything that could cost he health service what are we left with



Arew you an idiot?
This is advice.
Do you understand the difference?
Not in one of the above examples does a docter tell you not to but advice it is not in your best interest to in some and in others over use.
Why are people so fucking selfish and so fucking ignorant.???
They claim now advice on what is best is telling them waht to do, even though they ignore this and make complete ---- of themselves.
Am i a idiot Mmmmmmm

personal insults all ready
my what a waste of time you are one comment and straight away disparageing remarkes from the sites resident know it all and expert on absolutely any thing you care to mention


perhaps if your attitude towards others views were not so hostile and derogatory of the individual you would not come across as the dick head you do come across as
i am sure that`s the general feeling it would be funny if it wasn`t so pathetic

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:23 am

@KD
cause he already lost

Bras freedom is NOT being able to afford health care for your wife and needing to walk miles to a crappy job..
He can believe that if he wants but I will fight against it. And I pay my taxes and have hardly used any of the health services they have paid for


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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:24 am

korban dallas wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Arew you an idiot?
This is advice.
Do you understand the difference?
Not in one of the above examples does a docter tell you not to but advice it is not in your best interest to in some and in others over use.
Why are people so fucking selfish and so fucking ignorant.???
They claim now advice on what is best is telling them waht to do, even though they ignore this and make complete ---- of themselves.
Am i a idiot Mmmmmmm

personal insults all ready
my what a waste of time you are one comment and straight away disparageing remarkes from the sites resident know it all and expert on absolutely any thing you care to mention  


perhaps if your attitude towards others views were not so hostile and derogatory of the individual you would not come across as the dick head you do come across as
i am sure that`s the general feeling   it would be funny if it wasn`t so pathetic

Sorry Korben, the fact you are not medically trained and think you know better, is pure ignorance.
There is no other way to describe it and if you dfo not take professional medical advice you only have yourself to blame.
Stop deflecting the main point here with idiotic points about how you feel about me. That is irrelevant, what is relevant is the fact you think you know better than people who are medically trained.
Now I find it very pathetic when people think they know best when they know utterly fuck all on this.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:25 am

Brasidas wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Brasidas wrote:


I agree utterly stupid Irn for anyone to do as I once did myself.
Hence why it is such good advice to listen to those who have been stupid do you not agree?
Seriously, this shows the limitations of the left, they seek to gain points off how I was stupid, admit that I was stupid and some tiny tim thinks he can score points off the fact I was naive and wrong to smoke.
That shows this idiot does not carfe about the dabate, but getting one over on the other poster because they are so wound up.
So Irn, where is your pointy now about how I used to smoke and how I admit I was an idiot for doing this?
You gtoing to need to wank off 5 more times?

That's fine Didge and it's as well to remember that whilst you are preaching and hectoring people on their lifestyles because it's not that straightforward, is it..



What a crock, your point was on scoring infantile points not caring about the issue.
Everyone now has seen that with their own eyes, because your comments were personal at the fact I used to smoke and that I have asthma.
I can happily admit I was stupid, but you would use that.
Speaks volumes about you Irn son

Didge, this isn't about scoring points, it's about people taking responsibility for their lifestyle choices and hopefully people reading your experiences will see that and learn from it and not make the same mistakes. You have been more than honest with that and that is to be commended and a real positive.

Anyway, it's late and I have work to do in the morning so busy busy busy as they say. Catch you tomorrow sometime.




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Friedrich Hayek

In other words a bunch of cap-doffers and forelock tuggers.
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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:26 am

veya_victaous wrote:@KD
cause he already lost

Bras freedom is NOT being able to afford health care for your wife and needing to walk miles to a crappy job..
He can believe that if he wants but I will fight against it. And I pay my taxes and have hardly used any of the health services they have paid for


You really are tallking so much shit Vyea.
Seriously, you think like other selfishly you know better when you do not.
That is what is wrong with the world today, where there is all the evidence in the world, you wish to blind to this and be a conspiracy nut.
That is your choice which shows nobody is forcing you and claims to making you decide is bullshit and that it is only advice and that you are stupid yourself for not listening.
On your head be it

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:29 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Brasidas wrote:


What a crock, your point was on scoring infantile points not caring about the issue.
Everyone now has seen that with their own eyes, because your comments were personal at the fact I used to smoke and that I have asthma.
I can happily admit I was stupid, but you would use that.
Speaks volumes about you Irn son

Didge, this isn't about scoring points, it's about people taking responsibility for their lifestyle choices and hopefully people reading your experiences will see that and learn from it and not make the same mistakes. You have been more than honest with that and that is to be commended and a real positive.

Anyway, it's late and I have work to do in the morning so busy busy busy as they say. Catch you tomorrow sometime.




Pleas spare me the bullshit, you are such a bad liar Irn.
At every turn you know every point I have made is right, instyead because you are constantly at odds with me you make it some personal vendetta.
Goodnight, all the best Irn.

I have to sleep too so take care

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:35 am

Brasidas wrote:
korban dallas wrote:
Am i a idiot Mmmmmmm

personal insults all ready
my what a waste of time you are one comment and straight away disparageing remarkes from the sites resident know it all and expert on absolutely any thing you care to mention  


perhaps if your attitude towards others views were not so hostile and derogatory of the individual you would not come across as the dick head you do come across as
i am sure that`s the general feeling   it would be funny if it wasn`t so pathetic

Sorry Korben, the fact you are not medically trained and think you know better, is pure ignorance.
There is no other way to describe it and if you dfo not take professional medical advice you only have yourself to blame.
Stop deflecting the main point here with idiotic points about how you feel about me. That is irrelevant, what is relevant is the fact you think you know better than people who are medically trained.
Now I find it very pathetic when people think they know best when they know utterly fuck all on this.
see thats your problem you make wild assumptions
not medicaly trained

like you ?
phd in ,what was it psychology  ? or bullshit which is more likely as i can see no evidence to support your claim of a phd in anything ,given the way you just can`t understand ...well anything it seems ,and especialy since you rarelyget your point across with out abuse or combative speech  you would think someone with your alleged qualifications would be better at personal interactions
so  i am willing to bet i have more medical training than you  and yes i do have some

also when you actually lucid your ok but when you act like a ignorant abusive twat your not so nice

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:30 am

Brasidas wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:@KD
cause he already lost

Bras freedom is NOT being able to afford health care for your wife and needing to walk miles to a crappy job..
He can believe that if he wants but I will fight against it. And I pay my taxes and have hardly used any of the health services they have paid for


You really are tallking so much shit Vyea.
Seriously, you think like other selfishly you know better when you do not. NO THAT IS YOU!!!! CLEARLY YOU SAID THE GUY IS FREE TO NOT BE ABLE TO AFFORD GAS AND MEDICINE FOR HIS WIFE but It is anti freedom to allow people to eat what they want??? You're are a hypocrite and caught out clearly being a hypocrite Freedom hating Cap doffing pathetic excuse for a citizen that doesn't want to look after other in society ONLY want to deny them stuff, never give, just deny and take away
That is what is wrong with the world today, People like you have faith instead of education that's what is wrong IF you understood chemistry and biology you;d also be calling out some of the spurious claims made as BULLSHIT where there is all the evidence in the world, Really? are you sure about that Razz Razz Razz you wish to blind to this and be a conspiracy nut.
That is your choice which shows nobody is forcing you and claims to making you decide is bullshit and that it is only advice and that you are stupid yourself for not listening. AND this is why you are arrogant WHO SAID I personally don't look after myself? I just respect other rights to Ignore that and live happy if they need medical care later fine that's what we pay taxes for.
On your head be it

AS repeatable shown YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND CHEMISTRY OR PHYSICS
You are faith driven even in your beliefs that there is all the evidence in the world,
Umm sorry
but find it... I will pull it apart for you

You wanna know some other stats, no Vegan has lived to 100
the average vegetarian in the west has more health issues in old age and shorter life span than omnivores. (globally this is offset but the longer living Japanese)


Greatest gains in life expectancy come from universal Health care, MORE than anything else and investment in healthcare to all members of society regardless of their vices As can be seem by dramatic rise in Australian and Japanese life expectancy compared to the USA since there introduction
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=life+expectancy+in+australia&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=KWX-VNX3A-bSmAXbw4L4DA

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/australian-men-have-thirdhighest-life-expectancy-in-the-world/story-e6frg8y6-1226920319378

Note the UK is not in top 10 for either gender
Aussies are 3rd longest living males and 7th longest living females


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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:35 am


Live Life
Enjoy Cake
Ignore Brasidas
cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:37 am

korban dallas wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Sorry Korben, the fact you are not medically trained and think you know better, is pure ignorance.
There is no other way to describe it and if you dfo not take professional medical advice you only have yourself to blame.
Stop deflecting the main point here with idiotic points about how you feel about me. That is irrelevant, what is relevant is the fact you think you know better than people who are medically trained.
Now I find it very pathetic when people think they know best when they know utterly fuck all on this.
see thats your problem you make wild assumptions
not medicaly trained

like you ?
phd in ,what was it psychology  ? or bullshit which is more likely as i can see no evidence to support your claim of a phd in anything ,given the way you just can`t understand ...well anything it seems ,and especialy since you rarelyget  your point across with out abuse or combative speech  you would think someone with your alleged qualifications would be better at personal interactions
so  i am willing to bet i have more medical training than you  and yes i do have some

also when you actually lucid your ok but when you act like a ignorant abusive twat your not so nice


So nothing to actually counter my poiints just another left winger throwing his dummies out of the pram because he knows he is wrong..
If you are silly enough to think you know more than medically trained people and wish to take the risk of not listening to them, be my guest.
I mean what next, you will be telling me of natural cures of cancer.
If you do not not want to listen to me and be my guest, this is your choice, nobody is forcing you to be silly, you can be silly all by yourself.
I wish you the best of luck beinmg silly not listening to sound advice thinking you know best, when you dont. Even I do not claim to know everything and never have.
Happy to take the bet also on medical knowledge being as I worked in the NHS and have a good working understanding of medical problems.
Not concered with what you believe, that is you trying to deflect the central point here os listening to sound medical advice from the experts, of which I do not even claim to be an expert


Last edited by Brasidas on Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:43 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

You really are tallking so much shit Vyea.
Seriously, you think like other selfishly you know better when you do not.  NO THAT IS YOU!!!! CLEARLY YOU SAID THE GUY IS FREE TO NOT BE ABLE TO AFFORD GAS AND MEDICINE FOR HIS WIFE but It is anti freedom to allow people to  eat what they want??? You're are a hypocrite and caught out clearly being a hypocrite Freedom hating Cap doffing pathetic excuse for a citizen that doesn't want to look after other in society ONLY want to deny them stuff, never give, just deny and take away
That is what is wrong with the world today, People like you have faith instead of education that's what is wrong IF you understood chemistry and biology you;d also be calling out some of the spurious claims made as BULLSHIT  where there is all the evidence in the world, Really? are you sure about that  Razz  Razz  Razz  you wish to blind to this and be a conspiracy nut.
That is your choice which shows nobody is forcing you and claims to making you decide is bullshit and that it is only advice and that you are stupid yourself for not listening. AND this is why you are arrogant WHO SAID I personally don't look after myself? I just respect other rights to Ignore that and live happy if they need medical care later fine that's what we pay taxes for.
On your head be it

AS repeatable shown YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND CHEMISTRY OR PHYSICS
You are faith driven even in your beliefs that there is all the evidence in the world,  
Umm sorry
but find it...  I will pull it apart for you

You wanna know some other stats, no Vegan has lived to 100
the average vegetarian in the west has more health issues in old age and shorter life span than omnivores. (globally this is offset but the longer living Japanese)


Greatest gains in life expectancy come from universal Health care, MORE than anything else and investment in healthcare to all members of society regardless of their vices As can be seem by dramatic rise in Australian and Japanese life expectancy compared to the USA since there introduction
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=life+expectancy+in+australia&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=KWX-VNX3A-bSmAXbw4L4DA

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/australian-men-have-thirdhighest-life-expectancy-in-the-world/story-e6frg8y6-1226920319378

Note the UK is not in top 10 for either gender
Aussies are 3rd longest living males and 7th longest living females




::::rotgdflmmfa::::rotgdflmmfa
Chemistry and Physics?
Do I need to futher debate such an imbecile after avoding every point I make.
This is why some of the left are utterly cluelss, and should have a warning sign placed on their heads.
Veya the same poster who basically wished two religious poster would die of cancer because they were giving their view of alterntaive cures for cancer and rightly countered their views as wrong to now also use the same stupidity they used in their arguments.
Seriously you are on ignorant fuckwit Veya and you have gladly proven this to the forum and even more so a hypocrit.
Now he makes a racist claim about how on average some people live longer as if it has something to do with being born to a land?
Seriously you cannot make it up how much of an idiot you are Veya.
You think they are living longer based on being born a man made concept called Australian or because of healthier lifestyles?


Last edited by Brasidas on Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:15 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:46 am

So to sum uip the left want people to be selfiish and be irresponsible with their bodies in life and then think the rich should pick up the tab for their irresponsiblity.
Yes you should enjoy life and to the full, but by also be responsible when doing so.
So I am glad healthy people do not listen to selfish left wing ignorance as seen here they all advicate people being selsih and placing unnecessary greif to families, all because they advocate people being unhealthy and irresponsible.
They want to grow up to become ill after ensuring this possibility is increased by their lifestyle. They then increase the chances of them dying younger than expected and leave a family to struggle and grieve at this lost which all could have been prevented in the vast majorioty of cases with a healthier lifestyle.
They had this choice of course, they choose themselves to be irresponible and increased the chances of illness by not listening.

No wonder less and less people are not left wing with the above poor selfish mentality.






I have a 65-year-old friend who is planning on retiring soon, and he is also planning on being dead by age 80. That’s his financial plan. He has enough money in savings to finance 15 golden years in some comfort, and he is wagering on the fact that men in his family are not long-lived.
That’s one kind of financial planning, but what if he’s wrong? Paradoxically, this friend is healthy and fit, and works hard to stay that way. So maybe he will defy the longevity statistics and live a long—and destitute—life.
The fact is, retirement planning is a riddle, and millions of Baby Boomers are learning that they simply don’t have enough information to make sound decisions. We don’t know the hour of our death—or even the decade in most cases—so we don’t know how long our money needs to last, which means we have no idea how much to put by.
Given this conundrum, some people simply throw up their hands and live for today. They spend their money, and pay little attention to their health. Those include the nearly half of all retirees with zero savings. Others are more prudent, denying themselves certain luxuries today to secure their financial future. But what makes some of us prudent and others care-free?
Psychological scientists are very interested in the dynamics of future planning, in part because people are so bad at it. There is circumstantial evidence that people who are financially irresponsible also take poor care of themselves—smoking more, eating lousy, rarely exercising—while the financially secure are also healthier. Is it possible that a single underlying trait is shaping behaviors that promote both health and wealth?
That’s the idea that two scientists at Washington University in St. Louis have been exploring. Lamar Pierce and Timothy Gubler have been focusing on a particular style of thinking, called temporal discounting, that they believe may be key to both financial well-being and health. Simply put, people who take a long perspective and value the future are more apt to do things that make that future a good one, while those who discount the future focus on immediate desires and needs.
That’s the theory, which Pierce and Gubler tested in an elaborate study involving real working Americans’ lives and decisions. They arranged to work with a large industrial laundry with facilities in several states. The company had recently instituted a company-wide wellness program that offered annual health screenings, including 42 blood tests and a survey of health habits. The scientists gathered data over two years on more than 200 workers.
The idea was to see if these workers’ financial prudence—or lack of it—predicted their efforts to stay healthy. So to start, the scientists gathered information on all the employees’ contributions to the company’s 401(k) plan. The company had a 6 percent default plan—that is, unless otherwise specified, workers contribute 6 percent of their salary to the plan, which is tax-exempt and matched by the company. The laundry workers averaged only about $39,000 a year, so while the company match is an effective raise of 6 percent, it shows up in the workers’ paychecks as a slight but unwelcome cut in take-home pay. In other words, it is a good measure of time perspective in decision making.
The scientists wanted to compare 401(k) contributors and non-contributors on a particular kind of health measure—how much they were willing to change a documented health risk. They scientists used the initial health screening to “shock” the workers into an awareness of their risks. This was not hard to do, since almost all of them had at least one abnormal blood test—unhealthy cholesterol or glucose levels, for example—and one in four had an extremely abnormal result. Nurses delivered any bad news, and asked for permission to send the results to the worker’s personal physician—adding to the shock. Workers also received a report card on risky health behaviors, anticipated future health risks, and personalized suggestions for health improvement.
Then they followed the laundry workers for two years, to see if any of them took steps to address health risks in their initial reports. The idea was to see if any such changes were correlated with financial planning.
And they were, clearly. As reported in a forthcoming issue of the journal Psychological Science, those who saved for the future by contributing to a 401(k)—these were the workers who successfully improved their lab results and corrected unhealthy lifestyles over the course of the study, resulting in fewer sick days. Indeed, they improved about 27 percent more than non-savers on these health measures.
Pierce and Gubler are not insensitive to these laundry workers’ financial plight. It’s hard to get by on $39,000 and every dollar counts today. But they ran an analysis that rules out the possibility that urgent need is what links poor savings and poor health. Instead, the findings suggest that a more fundamental and robust underlying trait—a way of thinking about time–contributes to both financial and bodily health.
This is good news, but only for those who are predisposed to think to the future. For those who don’t, it’s bad news, because such underlying cognitive styles are highly resistant to change. This was evident in the laundry workers’ savings patters. Even though this company used a default strategy to nudge all workers into prudent savings, many did the paperwork to drop out of the savings plan soon after. They did not see increased future wealth as a good tradeoff for a poorer payday.


http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/were-only-human/the-future-is-long-for-the-healthy-wealthy-and-wise.html

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by eddie on Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:12 am

I want to make this one point:
I think there are many many people who are over-drinkng, far more than figures will ever show.

My real concern is why.

Why? Why are people compelled to "escape" through alcohol?
Solve that and you'll solve the problem of over-drinking and binge-drinking.

Also, on topic, I agree with Katie Hopkins (I sort of agree with her a lot actually) that if you can afford to get yourslrf in that much shit ie over-drinking, over-eating etc then you can afford to get yourself out of it.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:16 am

eddie wrote:I want to make this one point:
I think there are many many people who are over-drinkng, far more than figures will ever show.

My real concern is why.

Why? Why are people compelled to "escape" through alcohol?
Solve that and you'll solve the problem of over-drinking and binge-drinking.

Also, on topic, I agree with Katie Hopkins (I sort of agree with her a lot actually) that if you can afford to get yourslrf in that much shit ie over-drinking, over-eating etc then you can afford to get yourself out of it.

Well said, the point is people need to be responsible for the choices they make in life.
Others though seem to want to excuse people for being irresponsible.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by eddie on Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:21 am

Brasidas wrote:
eddie wrote:I want to make this one point:
I think there are many many people who are over-drinkng, far more than figures will ever show.

My real concern is why.

Why? Why are people compelled to "escape" through alcohol?
Solve that and you'll solve the problem of over-drinking and binge-drinking.

Also, on topic, I agree with Katie Hopkins (I sort of agree with her a lot actually) that if you can afford to get yourslrf in that much shit ie over-drinking, over-eating etc then you can afford to get yourself out of it.

Well said, the point is people need to be responsible for the choices they make in life.
Others though seem to want to excuse people for being irresponsible.

I think that's where the world started to go wrong tbh
We teach children about consequences, even my three year old knows if she does something she has her own consequences (obviously simplified)

Where and when did we learn to drop our responsiblites for our actions???

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:28 am

eddie wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

Well said, the point is people need to be responsible for the choices they make in life.
Others though seem to want to excuse people for being irresponsible.

I think that's where the world started to go wrong tbh
We teach children about consequences, even my three year old knows if she does something she has her own consequences (obviously simplified)

Where and when did we learn to drop our responsiblites for our actions???

No idea Eddie and its on many aspects we are in complete reverses as to what we teach our children.
I think the problem started when people became better off and had less to struggle to survive with.
I know that sounds bad, but I think its true. When people can have many things, they over induldge on them not fearing the consequences in many cases until its to late. If you have less, you tend to respect more what you do not have.
What are our basic needs? When you have more than you need people tend to less respect what they have.
Well that is how I think society is going wrong.
We have become a very spoilt species.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by eddie on Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:55 pm

Sorry for the late reply had a totally mad day.

I'm always thinking about this topic didge; what makes some of these rich and overnight successes become hooked on drugs? Amy Winehouse being a good example.
I know it's a generalisation too, but there are so many people I know, who have a drink nearly every day - it's like the only way they can relax after work.

I know when my other half is off we tend to say "hey shall we get some wine?"
If he's off a week that's a lot of bottles of wine! Why do we need it? I actually am not a massive drinker tbf, but will alwsys join in if someone has one!

Drugs are so easy to get now didge! On almost every street corner or every ten houses in a block.
It's scary.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:52 pm

Brasidas wrote:
korban dallas wrote:
see thats your problem you make wild assumptions
not medicaly trained

like you ?
phd in ,what was it psychology  ? or bullshit which is more likely as i can see no evidence to support your claim of a phd in anything ,given the way you just can`t understand ...well anything it seems ,and especialy since you rarelyget  your point across with out abuse or combative speech  you would think someone with your alleged qualifications would be better at personal interactions
so  i am willing to bet i have more medical training than you  and yes i do have some

also when you actually lucid your ok but when you act like a ignorant abusive twat your not so nice


So nothing to actually counter my poiints just another left winger throwing his dummies out of the pram because he knows he is wrong..
If you are silly enough to think you know more than medically trained people and wish to take the risk of not listening to them, be my guest.
I mean what next, you will be telling me of natural cures of cancer.
If you do not not want to listen to me and be my guest, this is your choice, nobody is forcing you to be silly, you can be silly all by yourself.
I wish you the best of luck beinmg silly not listening to sound advice thinking you know best, when you dont. Even I do not claim to know everything and never have.
Happy to take the bet also on medical knowledge being as I worked in the NHS and have a good working understanding of medical problems.
Not concered with what you believe, that is you trying to deflect the central point here os listening to sound medical advice from the experts, of which I do not even claim to be an expert
natural cures of cancer

20 Medical Studies That Show Cannabis Can Be A Potential Cure Cancer
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/08/23/20-medical-studies-that-prove-cannabis-can-cure-cancer/

natural enough for you ?

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:39 pm

Brasidas wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

You really are tallking so much shit Vyea.
Seriously, you think like other selfishly you know better when you do not.  NO THAT IS YOU!!!! CLEARLY YOU SAID THE GUY IS FREE TO NOT BE ABLE TO AFFORD GAS AND MEDICINE FOR HIS WIFE but It is anti freedom to allow people to  eat what they want??? You're are a hypocrite and caught out clearly being a hypocrite Freedom hating Cap doffing pathetic excuse for a citizen that doesn't want to look after other in society ONLY want to deny them stuff, never give, just deny and take away
That is what is wrong with the world today, People like you have faith instead of education that's what is wrong IF you understood chemistry and biology you;d also be calling out some of the spurious claims made as BULLSHIT  where there is all the evidence in the world, Really? are you sure about that  Razz  Razz  Razz  you wish to blind to this and be a conspiracy nut.
That is your choice which shows nobody is forcing you and claims to making you decide is bullshit and that it is only advice and that you are stupid yourself for not listening. AND this is why you are arrogant WHO SAID I personally don't look after myself? I just respect other rights to Ignore that and live happy if they need medical care later fine that's what we pay taxes for.
On your head be it

AS repeatable shown YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND CHEMISTRY OR PHYSICS
You are faith driven even in your beliefs that there is all the evidence in the world,  
Umm sorry
but find it...  I will pull it apart for you

You wanna know some other stats, no Vegan has lived to 100
the average vegetarian in the west has more health issues in old age and shorter life span than omnivores. (globally this is offset but the longer living Japanese)


Greatest gains in life expectancy come from universal Health care, MORE than anything else and investment in healthcare to all members of society regardless of their vices As can be seem by dramatic rise in Australian and Japanese life expectancy compared to the USA since there introduction
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=life+expectancy+in+australia&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=KWX-VNX3A-bSmAXbw4L4DA

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/australian-men-have-thirdhighest-life-expectancy-in-the-world/story-e6frg8y6-1226920319378

Note the UK is not in top 10 for either gender
Aussies are 3rd longest living males and 7th longest living females




::::rotgdflmmfa::::rotgdflmmfa
Chemistry and Physics?
Do I need to futher debate such an imbecile after avoding every point I make. Umm it clearly has my answers written in Bold not this Oh no I'm losing claim they aren't addressing my point defence.. you can only use that IF you A make a Point or B didn't have you point addressed
This is why some of the left are utterly cluelss, and should have a warning sign placed on their heads.
Veya the same poster who basically wished two religious poster would die of cancer because they were giving their view of alterntaive cures for cancer and rightly countered their views as wrong to now also use the same stupidity they used in their arguments.
Seriously you are on ignorant fuckwit Veya and you have gladly proven this to the forum and even more so a hypocrit.
Now he makes a racist claim about how on average some people live longer as if it has something to do with being born to a land?
Seriously you cannot make it up how much of an idiot you are Veya.
You think they are living longer based on being born a man made concept called Australian or because of healthier lifestyles?

Umm Ok so you still don't get it. Or do you just hate science Suspect Suspect Your arguments are weird You believe something because of poor science funded by people making money but don't believe the real science like evolutionary biologists, anthropologists etc. confused



They were promoting something that we Know does not effect cancer and definitely not a cure. Like you they were promoting something based on hearsay rather than understanding.
NONE of the things you are talking about ACTUALLY have any studies that say they cause cancer or death earlier then A LOT of other things. they have studies that say the increased probability based on varying factors. But real numbers show contact sports are more dangerous than a life time of low level obesity. Smoking causes blood clots on the brain but not as many as being in the Highs school football team Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes But we like football media makes money off it so media doesn't promote those studies (and I mean real football not soccer)


YES our HEALTHY Life style that includes drinking and smoking and high sugar high fat diets confused confused confused So even then the Health can be attributed to a more outdoors lifestyle cleaner air (maybe?) but more likely it is down to our really good relatively well funded public hospital system.
YES where you live make a Huge difference to your life expectancy... that is a harsh fact of life that many a person that would be saved without even a concern in Australia due to the public hospital system, dies in many poorer nations.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:55 pm

eddie wrote:Sorry for the late reply had a totally mad day.

I'm always thinking about this topic didge; what makes some of these rich and overnight successes become hooked on drugs? Amy Winehouse being a good example.
I know it's a generalisation too, but there are so many people I know, who have a drink nearly every day - it's like the only way they can relax after work.

I know when my other half is off we tend to say "hey shall we get some wine?"
If he's off a week that's a lot of bottles of wine! Why do we need it? I actually am not a massive drinker tbf, but will alwsys join in if someone has one!

Drugs are so easy to get now didge! On almost every street corner or every ten houses in a block.
It's scary.

Evolutionary Biology If you are European particularly.
we still have about 15,000 years of adaptation to Ethanol (drinking alcohol) and resistance to pentanol.
As consuming these over dirty water meant you were less like to swallow some deadly bacteria most Europeans have a desire for alcohol rooted in their brain chemistry. Beyond that Alcohol and the 'freedom to get intoxicated' shows tribal success alcohol production requires reasonable sized tribe working together with high level of territorial stability (due to the fermentation time if you did have a camp site for a long time you'd never see the results) and the first requirement for freedom to get intoxicated is not having risk of lions or other big predator.

People often talk like alcohol or salt consumerist is higher than before, it isn't.
Refrigeration has greatly reduced salt consumption(we eat a lot less salt preserved meats) but we still have the brain chemistry to 'like salt' again it comes back to liking salt meant that you could more happily live off the store preserved food that was what was available for last 30,000 or so years.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:59 pm

have you ever noticed that say with Omega 3 etc
they say contain you daily intake needs then go on to say it is as much omega as so many kilos of tuna...

what caveman ate that much fish, basically a full days total consumption in fish alone? and still consumed the vast amounts of berries etc that are also 'your daily requirements'...Suspect
This is the difference between dieticians and even nutritionists and Biologists and evolutionary biologists.
ONE is advertising a product Wink

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:50 am

korban dallas wrote:
Brasidas wrote:


So nothing to actually counter my poiints just another left winger throwing his dummies out of the pram because he knows he is wrong..
If you are silly enough to think you know more than medically trained people and wish to take the risk of not listening to them, be my guest.
I mean what next, you will be telling me of natural cures of cancer.
If you do not not want to listen to me and be my guest, this is your choice, nobody is forcing you to be silly, you can be silly all by yourself.
I wish you the best of luck beinmg silly not listening to sound advice thinking you know best, when you dont. Even I do not claim to know everything and never have.
Happy to take the bet also on medical knowledge being as I worked in the NHS and have a good working understanding of medical problems.
Not concered with what you believe, that is you trying to deflect the central point here os listening to sound medical advice from the experts, of which I do not even claim to be an expert
natural cures of cancer

20 Medical Studies That Show Cannabis Can Be A Potential Cure Cancer
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/08/23/20-medical-studies-that-prove-cannabis-can-cure-cancer/

natural enough for you ?

I just PMSL.
Do you understand the word maybe?
Maybe is not a cure.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:52 am

Second Veya seems to think there is no need to be responsible for ourselves then why should anyone be responsible for others?
That is what you are saying Veya, as the concept is being responsible which we all have to be for others and not just ourselves.
We as huamans further cause problems to our bodies because we are not responsible with them, you either advocate responsibility or you do not, which would mean you back nobody being responsible with anything.

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:56 am

Brasidas wrote:
korban dallas wrote:
natural cures of cancer

20 Medical Studies That Show Cannabis Can Be A Potential Cure Cancer
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/08/23/20-medical-studies-that-prove-cannabis-can-cure-cancer/

natural enough for you ?

I just PMSL.
Do you understand the word maybe?
Maybe is not a cure.
yes i understand it perfectly well
same as kemo therapy maybe cure your cancer
or certain drugs maybe cure your cancer

cured
relieve (a person or animal) of the symptoms of a disease or condition.



or are you claiming we have cured cancer








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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:58 am

korban dallas wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

I just PMSL.
Do you understand the word maybe?
Maybe is not a cure.
yes i understand it perfectly well
same as kemo therapy maybe cure your cancer
or certain drugs maybe cure your cancer

cured
relieve (a person or animal) of the symptoms of a disease or condition.



or are you claiming we have cured cancer









Do you?
You just posted natural cures for cancer.
Chemo does not cure cancer either, seriously you said you understand more medically than myself, that was just easily disproved.

I suggest you read some real science:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/medical-marijuana-as-the-new-herbalism-part-2-cannabis-does-not-cure-cancer/

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:07 am

Brasidas wrote:Second Veya seems to think there is no need to be responsible for ourselves then why should anyone be responsible for others?
That is what you are saying Veya, as the concept is being responsible which we all have to be for others and not just ourselves.
We as huamans further cause problems to our bodies because we are not responsible with them, you either advocate responsibility or you do not, which would mean you back nobody being responsible with anything.

Nail head

IT is called FREEDOM
You Freedom hater

Responsibility is for the STATE to worry about

Why should individuals be responsible if the state wont be

why not just kill the rich guy and take his stuff
why not shot cops
If society anit helping those in need to give more money to the rich Fucking BURN IT
JUST END SOCIETY NOW
Your opinion make me not believe in democracy
FREEDOM TO WATCH YOUR WIFE SUFFER WHEN NOT WALKING MILES FOR A PITTANCE!! is what you want!!!
you selfish greedy piece of shit

YOU ARE WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE WORLD..

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Re: The Cost Of Living - Alcohol And The NHS Funding Debate

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:12 am

Brasidas wrote:
korban dallas wrote:
yes i understand it perfectly well
same as kemo therapy maybe cure your cancer
or certain drugs maybe cure your cancer

cured
relieve (a person or animal) of the symptoms of a disease or condition.



or are you claiming we have cured cancer









Do you?
You just posted natural cures for cancer.
Chemo does not cure cancer either, seriously you said you understand more medically than myself, that was just easily disproved.

I suggest you read some real science:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/medical-marijuana-as-the-new-herbalism-part-2-cannabis-does-not-cure-cancer/
No i pointed out a possible herbal cure for cancer as was your request

quote
"I mean what next, you will be telling me of natural cures of cancer."


but you have obviously done more than 20 Medical Studies to dismiss expert opinion ,i look forward to reading your report ,and which journal will i find that in exactly oh!!! that right the hitch-hikers guide to bullshit    and uninformed ramblings and delusions of  importance  ....hence nobody including me take you seriously
your a bit of a also ran i am afraid


http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/cannabis/healthprofessional/page4


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