Seige in Sydney

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Post by veya_victaous on Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:41 pm

http://www.news.com.au/national/a-man-is-holding-several-people-hostage-at-martin-place-cafe/story-fncynjr2-1227156241649

ARMED men are holding 40 to 50 people hostage at a cafe in Martin Place in Sydney.

There are reports that two gunman have taken hostages, some of which are standing with their hands up at the windows in the popular Lindt chocolate shop, which has two or three entrances. There is also a black and white flag being held up in a window. It is believed to be the Black Standard, a jihadist flag.

Lindt Australia CEO Steve Loane told news.com.au he believes there are 40 to 50 people inside the cafe, including customers and staff.

The government’s National Security Committee of Cabinet has met for briefings on the situation this morning.

In a statement, Tony Abbott said he had also spoken with NSW Premier Mike Baird and “offered him all possible Commonwealth support and assistance”.

“This is obviously a deeply concerning incident but all Australians should be reassured that our law enforcement and security agencies are well trained and equipped and are responding in a thorough and professional manner,” he said.

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:31 pm

Wow, didn't know this kind to thing happened in Oz. Where did they get the guns? I thot they were illegal.

What's the plan? Robbery? Ransom? Or just showing the colors?

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Post by veya_victaous on Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:41 pm

guy has a over under shotgun. You know the type like Victor uses to hunt Rabbits.

Seige in Sydney 354648-194b8a4a-83ee-11e4-917d-bf0f063a4996

it is ISIS wannbes
5 hours none dead, gunmen surrounded

Conveniently timed to block all reporting of major financial report on gov't spending due out today and the announcement that we are giving Rupert 11 billion for an old outdated copper network as part of liberals NBN "Not Broadband Network"(as opposed to Labours, National Broadband Network) as opposed to spending 15 Billion of Brand New state of the are fibre optic lines.

If no one dies this is a political stunt cover-up the only thing of note about this Cafe is it is opposite a TV station.

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:57 pm

I saw. Found this:

Yahoo wrote:SYDNEY (AP) — A gunman took an unknown number of people hostage inside a downtown Sydney chocolate shop and cafe at the height of Monday morning rush hour, with two people inside the cafe seen holding up a flag believed to contain an Islamic declaration of faith.

Four hours after the incident first erupted inside the Lindt Chocolat Cafe, New South Wales state Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione said police had not made direct contact with the gunman, did not know his motivation and were not sure how many people were being held inside.

"We have not yet confirmed it is a terrorism-related event," Scipione said. "We're dealing with a hostage situation with an armed offender and we are dealing with it accordingly."

The cafe is located in Martin Place, a plaza in the heart of the city's financial and shopping district that is packed with holiday shoppers this time of year. Many of those inside the cafe would have been taken hostage as they stopped in for their morning coffees.

Hundreds of police flooded into the area, streets were closed and offices evacuated. The public was told to stay away from Martin Place, home to the state premier's office, the Reserve Bank of Australia, and the headquarters of two of the nation's largest banks. The state parliament house is a few blocks away.

Television footage shot through the cafe's windows showed several people with their arms in the air and hands pressed against the glass, and two people holding up what appeared to be a black flag with white Arabic writing on it.

Seige in Sydney 9e6bd58a257b4131680f6a7067004a63

This image taken from video shows people holding up hands inside a cafe in Sydney, Australia Monday, …

Zain Ali, the head of the Islamic Studies Research Unit at the University of Auckland, said it was difficult to read the message because media images showed only the lower part of the flag. But he believed it was the Shahada, or declaration of faith, largely because a black flag with white writing in a contemporary context often contains that message. He said he could make out the word "Muhammad."

Ali said the Shahada translates as "There is no deity of worship except God (Allah), and Muhammad is the messenger of God." It is considered the first pillar of Islam's five pillars of faith, and has been used by groups like al-Qaida and Islamic State but wasn't invented by them, Ali said.

"We don't know whether this is politically motivated, although obviously there are some indications that it could be," Prime Minister Tony Abbott told reporters in the nation's capital, Canberra. "We have to appreciate that even in a society such as ours, there are people who would wish to do us harm."

A police spokeswoman said no injuries had been reported from the incident. Heavily armed officers were lined up outside the cafe, and a man with a backpack inside the cafe could be seen walking back and forth in front of the glass doors.

"Police have been in attendance and have controlled the situation from very early this morning," said Scipione, the police commissioner. "We are at this stage continuing to secure and make sure that we are doing all we can to bring this to a peaceful outcome."

Abbott said the National Security Committee of Cabinet met to be briefed on the situation.

"The whole point of politically motivated violence is to scare people out of being themselves," Abbott said. "Australia is a peaceful, open and generous society — nothing should ever change that. And that's why I would urge all Australians today to go about their business as usual."

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Post by Cass on Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:31 am

looks like LE stormed in. Gun fire exchanged. people/hostages taken away in ambulance. CPR being performed on 2 people. No sign or word of gunman.......presumed to be dead? Hope so.

a pretend self styled sheik. On bail for sexual assault, accessory to ex-wifes murder.

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:26 am

He has been taken and hostages released. He had a shotgun. Iranian fellow, with several run-ins with the law. Past sex charges, although I look on that with a jaundiced eye, as bringing sex charges is the best way to discredit someone without evidence. Often a ruse by the authorities.

Couple of hostages injured, not sure how many. Anyway, it's over.

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If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:30 pm

A shotgun.  One shot, possibly two.  Not well thought out.

Dude, feed the kitties!

Seige in Sydney A4e32a02f1976d3efdc7b0de32707416

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Post by veya_victaous on Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:57 pm

Seems Police killed all the dead...

A little bit silly the way they stormed it, they had guys in full bomb suits and he only had a shot gun... was the spraying the room with bullets really necessary? where was the sharpshooter?
Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect
I know it is real life but that would be a fail or very poor on pretty much any video game.

RIP innocent hostages
So sad so close to the holidays Sad

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Post by veya_victaous on Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:27 pm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2874121/Far-right-group-leader-blames-left-wing-bigots-Sydney-hostage-crisis-terrorism-expert-says-racist-attacks-against-Australian-Muslims-likely.html

I personally know Ralph he is the chairman of the ADL and I have heard him claim to be ex-SAS,
look up Australian & New Zealand Military Imposters, http://www.anzmi.net/index.php/component/sobipro/?pid=349&sid=409:Cerminara

The website claims that while Mr Cerminara did serve in the Australian Army from 2002-2004, he was “unceremoniously” discharged on the grounds of “Retention Not in the Service Interest”.
He was discharged under the rank of Gunner, otherwise known as a Private. It is just above the level of Recruit.
“We get information from veterans all over Australia,” said Phill Hobson, a spokesman for the website.
“When we get the tip we go ahead and research the person. We look at their military history and write it up.
“He’s a mongrel, the people that served with him in the army have said all kinds of reports about his horrible behaviour while he was serving.
“We think he’s a stupid, idiotic nut case, he’s just stirring up trouble. Instead of trying to make the whole thing work, he’s making it worse.
“His views are not necessarily those of the people that he served with.”

he is just a racist nutbag his ideas are as fundamentalist as the terrorists.

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Post by veya_victaous on Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:07 pm

Thankfully the daily mail is Wrong about Aussies... one loon Wether Muslim or White doesn't not change our perceptions of the whole

Seige in Sydney B442y_CCIAA1sqV
http://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/australians-offer-to-ride-to-work-with-people-in-religious-a

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Post by veya_victaous on Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:49 pm

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/sunrise-host-natalie-barr-breaks-down-as-she-reveals-she-knows-the-brother-of-siege-victim-katrina-dawson/story-fnpilxz1-1227157787948

Seige in Sydney 787894-c686263a-84b0-11e4-a702-553dc58650c9

SUNRISE host Natalie Barr has broken down in tears on air this morning after learning she knows the brother of the woman killed in last night’s siege.

With her voice shaky and tears in her eyes, Barr revealed that 38-year-old Katrina Dawson’s brother is a lawyer who has worked for Channel Seven.

“I’m just finding out Katrina Dawson was the sister of a prominent barrister Sandy Dawson who has done some work at Channel Seven,” Barr said, almost struggling to get the words out.

“Sandy Dawson, who I know and I have friends who know. A mother of three children. I’m just finding this out this morning.”

Ms Dawson, a barrister and mother of three children, aged eight, five and three, entered the Lindt Cafe yesterday morning to grab a coffee, reportedly part of her daily routine.

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Post by veya_victaous on Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:16 pm

http://www.buzzfeed.com/bradesposito/everyone-is-rather-upset-with-rupert-murdochs-latest-tweet

Media mogul Rupert Murdoch is taking a lot of criticism online for his latest tweet regarding the recent hostage situation in Sydney.

Rupert Murdoch @rupertmurdoch
AUST gets wake-call with Sydney terror. Only Daily Telegraph caught the bloody outcome at 2.00 am. Congrats.
7:19 AM - 16 Dec 14


Murdoch proves again why he is A massive fucking ----.
Rupert Wake the Fuck up to all the NOT TERRIFIED AUSSIES telling you and your fear monger fucktards to go fuck yourself

we wont hate our Aussie Muslim Brothers and Sisters Because your an old hated filled Piece of Shit that Should just fuck off and Die... yeah a wake up call the Guys that Owns most of the media is a racist dick that literally Uses the people murdered by a lone psycho to further his Politically motivated Hate Campaign!!!

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Post by eddie on Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:15 am

Why do Muslims want to terrorise people?
Sorry guys, but this was a Muslim, was it not?

These hardcore Muslims should be stopped.

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Post by Guest on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:29 am

eddie wrote:Why do Muslims want to terrorise people?
Sorry guys, but this was a Muslim, was it not?

These hardcore Muslims should be stopped.

Quite right as should all the ones in tacit agreement.
Time to stop contemplating our navels and fight back
Hard.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:07 am

eddie wrote:Why do Muslims want to terrorise people?
Sorry guys, but this was a Muslim, was it not?

These hardcore Muslims should be stopped.

He was also extremely short.  Radical shorties have to be watched very closely.  Shorties have a much different outlook on life.  They don't see things the same as decent, common folk like you and I.  Their view is aimed much lower, at more-or-less the lower strata of society.  Their perspective skews their social, and particularly their moral, and hence political ideas.

This is especially the case when they are veterans.  Veterans have special skills.  Shorties who are veterans have gone to special training sites, where they learn to disrupt society and bring the ideology or common outlook down to their level.  They aim lower, and as a result achieve much less.

Don't let the shorties take over.  There will be a meeting at the Longfellow's Lodge at 8 pm tonight to discuss what to do about the short problem. Cool

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Post by Guest on Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:35 am

This was awful, how one person can cause so much fear and heartbreak and not just for the people directly and indirectly involved Sad

How on earth this guy was out on bail I will never know No

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Post by eddie on Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:27 pm

Erm whatever Wolf.
This whole thread has been discussing the siege where a madman held people hostage and killed a few.
This wasn't a lonely outcast this was a Muslim attack.
Why are you all beating around the bush?

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:57 pm

eddie wrote:Erm whatever Wolf.
This whole thread has been discussing the siege where a madman held people hostage and killed a few.
This wasn't a lonely outcast this was a Muslim attack.
Why are you all beating around the bush?

NO Edds it was a lonely outcast
He was already basically excommunicated from the Muslim Community for Murdering his wife and falsely claiming to be a Cleric
He is as Muslim as the Crazy Guy that says Jesus wants him to kill abortion doctors...

he was roundly condemned STRAIGHT AWAY by all Muslim leaders here. It is only Murdoch papers that are even trying to suggest otherwise. really Murdoch is the biggest shit stirring hate monger out.


Glad to see that Here, were we do live together in peace, one loon has been called out for what he is One loon!!! the few Hundred hate messages have been drowned out by thousands of messages of unity from the community.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:58 pm



Enlarge
Caption

SYDNEY: More than 40 Australian Muslim groups on Monday (Dec 15) jointly condemned a siege at a Sydney cafe in which hostages were taken by an armed man and an Islamic flag displayed.

"We reject any attempt to take the innocent life of any human being or to instil fear and terror into their hearts," they said in a statement.

The black flag shown at a window in the Lindt cafe was one commonly used by militant groups bearing the shahada, or profession of faith in Islam. It said: "There is no God but Allah; Mohammed is his messenger."

The Muslim groups said the inscription "is not representative of a political statement, but reaffirms a testimony of faith that has been misappropriated by misguided individuals that represent no-one but themselves".

"Any such despicable act only serves to play into the agendas of those who seek to destroy the goodwill of the people of Australia and to further damage and ridicule the religion of Islam and Australian Muslims throughout this country," it added.

"Our immediate thoughts go to the hostages and their loved ones. We pray for their safety and hope this matter is resolved quickly and peacefully."

Religious leaders across Australia on Monday called on their followers to unite and pray for a peaceful end to the Sydney siege.

Mosques, synagogues and churches across the country welcomed worshippers on Monday night, in what their leaders said was a show of community solidarity. "In times of great adversity it is imperative that we remain calm, united and stand together," Lebanese Muslim Association president Samier Dandan said.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/australian-Muslim-groups/1530242.html

Seige in Sydney Three-faiths-

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:00 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:Why do Muslims want to terrorise people?
Sorry guys, but this was a Muslim, was it not?

These hardcore Muslims should be stopped.

He was also extremely short.  Radical shorties have to be watched very closely.  Shorties have a much different outlook on life.  They don't see things the same as decent, common folk like you and I.  Their view is aimed much lower, at more-or-less the lower strata of society.  Their perspective skews their social, and particularly their moral, and hence political ideas.

This is especially the case when they are veterans.  Veterans have special skills.  Shorties who are veterans have gone to special training sites, where they learn to disrupt society and bring the ideology or common outlook down to their level.  They aim lower, and as a result achieve much less.

Don't let the shorties take over.  There will be a meeting at the Longfellow's Lodge at 8 pm tonight to discuss what to do about the short problem. Cool

Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool
Yes more must be done to stop the Militant Midgets
Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:02 pm

also this is actually the third siege this year the other 2 Tattooed up Good old White Anglo Aussies!!!

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Post by eddie on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:43 pm

Look I'm not saying all Muslims kill people.
I'm saying; call a spade a spade.

The guy did it in the name of Islam
Just like the one who gunned down the children in Pakistan today.

Just because we don't want to come across as "racist" or "religionists" or whatever, doesn't mean we can't condemn those that do,things in the name of religion.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:34 pm

Yeah but I could go kill a bunch a people in the name of Newsfix
Does that mean that it was supported or in anyway condoned by members here?
AND as pointed out people do stuff in the name of things all the time but we don't focus on unless it is the 'dreaded Muslims'

Currently any outsider with a violent streak will be attracted to radical Islam just like in the 90's it was Satanist and the trench coat Mafia, basically WHATEVER mainstream media is scaring the masses with is going to attract the kind of person that wants an excuse to kill other people. It has very little to do with the group itself as the Media Identifies this man as Muslim even though he did not belong to any Mosque or religious organisation.

Pakistan is much more complex there is a massive economic divide between the tribal north west and the more westernised south east, this has fuelled fundamentalism in the poorer areas combined with US actions on the Afghan boarder has made it a place teeming with disposed that can easily be convinced by the unscrupulous. there is religion but there is also huge tribal and socio-economic divides. Again our Mainstream media always condenses this down to 'Islam' when really it is more about the new billionaires raping their fellow citizens and the collapse of old institutions that were more tied to religion instead of capitalism (just like in the west, it was one of the factors that drove the Napoleonic wars)

so lets call a spade a spade
Most attacks on western interests come in response to our corporations being immoral and unscrupulous in their treatment of locals they often engage in corruption to over ride local political processes. Our corporations literally murder and steal their way across the World STILL, US Fruit companies basically funded Farq in South America and as we know Al queda and the Taliban were both funded by US Oil and gas interests.

Anyway THIS WAS NOT ONE THIS WAS A LOON ALREADY GOING TO JAIL but questions are being asked about why he was let out on bail, and why he had recently been dropped from terror watch lists

Murdoch media is LYING and Promoting hatred, they are responsible for the avocation of multiple wars. they promote division in the community they promote exasperating the gap between rich and poor, they promote Greed and inequality they promote the idea that pushing people into poverty makes you 'smart investor' using your inheritance to prevent others form achieving success through hard work.
AND while all the news was happening the Australian govt bought an 11 billion dollar piece of rubbish of a Murdoch controlled conglomerate netting Rupert Approximately 4 billion Dollars of tax payer money.

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Eilzel on Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:20 pm

Whatever the guys mental condition we must acknowledge that this was an ISIS inspired attack. They called for attacks like this by Muslims in western nations. Would this have happened as it did were there not the whole ME crisis right now? If IS had not called for lone wolf attacks would this man have still been inspired to go and take hostages this way? I find it hard to believe he would- same as with what happened in Canada.

I do not blame all Muslims. But this was an IS inspired attacked, and IS are Islamist fanatics- don't pretend religion is nothing to do with it when it blatantly is.

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:43 pm

Eilzel wrote:Whatever the guys mental condition we must acknowledge that this was an ISIS inspired attack. They called for attacks like this by Muslims in western nations. Would this have happened as it did were there not the whole ME crisis right now? If IS had not called for lone wolf attacks would this man have still been inspired to go and take hostages this way? I find it hard to believe he would- same as with what happened in Canada.

I do not blame all Muslims. But this was an IS inspired attacked, and IS are Islamist fanatics- don't pretend religion is nothing to do with it when it blatantly is.

yes ISIS inspired
And does ISIS represent Islam?
NO it does not

would it have happened anyway?
Probably it is the THIRD this year, one of the others was almost identical
a Man on bail for murdering his estranged wife took hostages in a strip club
The other 2 were Anglo Aussies.

Again whole bunch of crazy include the Recently added 'On Trial for the Murder of his ex-Wife'
so was it Islam or maybe the fact that he would be going to jail for a very long time soon that led to the decision and basically suicidal actions?

Maybe part of the issue is actually the fact we let murders out on bail Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect I have no idea why we do confused both cases it seem it was just delaying the inevitable and giving them a couple of months of freedom while bureaucracy took it's time.

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Eilzel on Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:54 pm

I certainly agree the system is part of the problem. Does IS represent Islam? No, no one group or person can claim that- but is their ideology rooted in Islam? Yes it is. Do millions of Muslims see them as pursuing an Islamic cause? Yes they do. IS is as representative of Islam to its supporters as the Pope is of Christianity to Catholics. Back to what happened in Sydney, other similar attacks have happened sure, but this one was inspired by Islam, the man openly demonstrated as much.

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:29 pm

Eilzel wrote:I certainly agree the system is part of the problem. Does IS represent Islam? No, no one group or person can claim that- but is their ideology rooted in Islam? Yes it is. Do millions of Muslims see them as pursuing an Islamic cause? Yes they do. IS is as representative of Islam to its supporters as the Pope is of Christianity to Catholics. Back to what happened in Sydney, other similar attacks have happened sure, but this one was inspired by Islam, the man openly demonstrated as much.

NO IT IS NOT
how can you claim that a Minority, in a minority region, with minimal support is representative of the Majority? equal to the Enshrined representative?
A more reasonable comparison to the Pope(there in not a central figure in Islam), in Australia at least, is Grand Mufti Ibrahim Abu Mohamed, the country's highest Islamic office holder.
'The Grand Mufti and the Australian National Imam Council condemn this criminal act unequivocally and reiterate that such actions are denounced in part and in whole in Islam,' Professor Mohamed said in a statement.


Do Million MORE Muslims see ISIS as evil backwater terrorists (like Quill and Ben see George Bush voting rednecks) HELL YEAH
the numbers are not even close over 90% of Muslims groups CONDEMN ISIS FULLY !!!

a Crazy Person's INSPIRATION doesn't mean shit. It is No more valid than saying TV and Movies caused the School shooting in the USA.


THANK Fully I live in a Nation that will work on the route causes
Not one of the Points is Islam.. Mental health treatment, Bail conditions, ties with Iran (we should have listen to them about this Loon) Watch lists and Intelligence agencies

http://www.news.com.au/national/how-did-sydney-siege-gunman-man-haron-monis-slip-through-the-cracks/story-fncynjr2-1227159015884


Some of Australia’s most influential voices have admitted mistakes were made, and hopefully developments will come from these reviews.

“The system did not adequately deal with this individual, there’s no doubt about that,” Mr Abbott said today.

“This is why we’ve got to constantly be asking ourselves is this the best we can do. Frankly we’ve got to always be better.”

Even Tony Abbott Is not suggest Islam has Anything to do with this


And to ADD some extra Crazy to this LOON he was a Shiite Muslim A.k.a. on ISIS's kill list. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:35 pm

Also no one is blaming guns Neutral
as the one he used is a tool and needed by farmers.

Actually really proud of how smart and reasonable my nation and fellow citizens are being about this pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat

it is a loon we know we don't do the best on mental health and we have very soft bail rules it is the biggest one but not the only one this year... and interstign if it woudl have got the international attention if he didn't put up the IS-like flag (it isn't actually but quite similar)

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Cass on Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:15 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
eddie wrote:Erm whatever Wolf.
This whole thread has been discussing the siege where a madman held people hostage and killed a few.
This wasn't a lonely outcast this was a Muslim attack.
Why are you all beating around the bush?

NO Edds it was a lonely outcast
He was already basically excommunicated from the Muslim Community for Murdering his wife and falsely claiming to be a Cleric
He is as Muslim as the Crazy Guy that says Jesus wants him to kill abortion doctors...

he was roundly condemned STRAIGHT AWAY by all Muslim leaders here. It is only Murdoch papers that are even trying to suggest otherwise. really Murdoch is the biggest shit stirring hate monger out.

Glad to see that Here, were we do live together in peace, one loon has been called out for what he is One loon!!! the few Hundred hate messages have been drowned out by thousands of messages of unity from the community.

totally agree
#illridewithyou



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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:04 pm

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/how-scene-of-tragedy-blossomed-into-a-sea-of-flowers/story-fnj3rq0y-1227159293041

The ever growing Sea of Flowers
Seige in Sydney 288556-f001a448-8583-11e4-9f59-4e93e361b697

Lines for Blocks to Add more
Seige in Sydney 288794-15660540-8588-11e4-9f59-4e93e361b697

Messages of Grief
Seige in Sydney 290177-786e5baa-8584-11e4-9f59-4e93e361b697
Seige in Sydney 291760-2c9c9936-8583-11e4-9f59-4e93e361b697

Messages of Hope
Seige in Sydney 290413-2b787696-8584-11e4-9f59-4e93e361b697
Seige in Sydney 290257-7be214b6-8584-11e4-9f59-4e93e361b697
Seige in Sydney 291680-2dcaeca4-8583-11e4-9f59-4e93e361b697

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:13 pm

veya wrote:Also no one is blaming guns Neutral
as the one he used is a tool and needed by farmers.

Guns are an inanimate object. You can't blame them for an intentional act.

Gun control is only about removing the opportunity that guns present...for the mentally ill, for the drunk, for the quick tempered or abusive person.

If a person has a plan, and it involves shooting someone, he will lay his hands on a gun. Case in point right here.

I think it's dangerous and misleading to argue that gun control is a panacea for all gun deaths. Gun control just removes the immediate opportunity.

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:50 pm

Original Quill wrote:
veya wrote:Also no one is blaming guns Neutral
as the one he used is a tool and needed by farmers.

Guns are an inanimate object.  You can't blame them for an intentional act.

Gun control is only about removing the opportunity that guns present...for the mentally ill, for the drunk, for the quick tempered or abusive person.

If a person has a plan, and it involves shooting someone, he will lay his hands on a gun.  Case in point right here.

I think it's dangerous and misleading to argue that gun control is a panacea for all gun deaths.  Gun control just removes the immediate opportunity.

the differences are in
the amount of dead. the speed in which they can kill so many people etc etc..
Gun control does limit the Vast majority of gun deaths, there is no need for semi automatic rifles or handguns in the community, which would have potentially done a lot more damage with more deaths.

the things we know GUN CONTROL Saves Thousands of lives that why we are hardly in double digits for gun deaths while USA is 5 figures year after year.
The thing is you cannot achieve a Zero sum as you then need to move stupidly too far the other way. I still expected some to call for tighter gun control and expected to see more Anti-islam stuff in the media, the idea of reaching a Zero Sum is silly we are not trying to do that just make it the minimum. removing most guns from the community does successfully do that. it is not just opportunity it is attitude towards gun violence, 'the castle defence', 'stand your ground' rubbish that inevitably goes with a nation where most citizens are gun owners. we inevitably see Police move to 'siege' mentality as a result of trying to enforce laws where so many are equipped to murder them.

it is more surprising that the real reasons and causes and possible preventions are being discussed.. we are actually talking and acting like adults pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat Unheard of after national tragedy pirat pirat pirat pirat

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:16 pm

Gun control only limits opportunity. It cannot stop a person determined to get his hand of a firearm.

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:50 pm

Original Quill wrote:Gun control only limits opportunity.  It cannot stop a person determined to get his hand of a firearm.

NOPE it has a massive impact on the social norms, public opinion and Behaviours around Fire arms and the Police attitude to citizens when arresting them.
Much more than Just access and opportunity they are the Immediate changes but in less than 2 decades the attitudes towards citizen with guns and the needs of citizens to own guns changes dramatically. When they first got rid of them people went on about self defence and how that was a valid 'need' now that would get you looked at like a potential murderer and definitely a bit of a nutjob for suggesting you need a gun to protect yourself.

Like I said in the other thread
the US cant even begin to address a lot of issues around Racism Because every one is too worried (with good reason) that the other guy is going to shoot them.
I can Guarantee you attitudes change when everyone knows the other guy isn't going to shoot them.

Even Ben has said he owns a hand gun for protection.
Here that would make him a weirdo nutjob Or a Criminal, either way many people would report him to the police, If he was licensed he would be likely to lose it for expressing the idea of using against another human being.

we have a 10th your population but only a 1000th of your gun deaths, statically the difference is hundreds to 1 in lives lost.

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Eilzel on Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:25 am

It's Islamic terrorism if the culprit is waving a black Islamic flag and claiming to want an ISIS flag.

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:32 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Gun control only limits opportunity.  It cannot stop a person determined to get his hand of a firearm.

NOPE it has a massive impact on the social norms, public opinion and Behaviours around Fire arms and the Police attitude to citizens when arresting them.
Much more than Just access and opportunity they are the Immediate changes but in less than 2 decades the attitudes towards citizen with guns and the needs of citizens to own guns changes dramatically. When they first got rid of them people went on about self defence and how that was a valid 'need' now that would get you looked at like a potential murderer and definitely a bit of a nutjob for suggesting you need a gun to protect yourself.

Like I said in the other thread
the US cant even begin to address a lot of issues around Racism Because every one is too worried (with good reason) that the other guy is going to shoot them.
I can Guarantee you attitudes change when everyone knows the other guy isn't going to shoot them.

Even Ben has said he owns a hand gun for protection.
Here that would make him a weirdo nutjob Or a Criminal, either way many people would report him to the police, If he was licensed he would be likely to lose it for expressing the idea of using against another human being.

we have a 10th your population but only a 1000th of your gun deaths, statically the difference is hundreds to 1 in lives lost.

Like I said, "Gun control only limits opportunity.  It cannot stop a person determined to get his hand of a firearm."  I'm all for things like education, background checks, tightening laws on access, but they are no guarantee.  For example:

*  Gun control is not going to stop racism.

*  Gun control is not going to stop police brutality.

*  Gun control is not going to stop crime.

I speak up not because I am not pleased about the things that have happened in Oz regarding limits on firearms, but to say that the road is much tougher in the US.  In America, limiting the gun is not merely a matter of eliminating the reasons to have a gun.  The firearm in this country is the equivalent of the flag or the bible in any other country.  

The gun has significant symbolism in America, which admittedly is always going to be wrapped up in reasons like self-defense, government tyranny, crime prevention and and other excuses.  But those reasons are not what is next to the heart for the average American; what is next to the heart is the symbolism of the gun.  Over the centuries the firearm has become synonymous with freedom and the ability to go anywhere and do anything (that is lawful).  Gun control laws are looked upon like communism or socialism: that which seeks to limit and curtail the capacity of man to be all he or she wants to be.

When I speak of the 'average American' I am not necessarily speaking of everyone in the absolute.  Rather, I am speaking of a strong theme in America, undoubtedly which gets stronger the farther right one goes.  There is yet a strong left in this country, and certainly a strong sentiment for gun control.

Indeed, as long as gun control is stymied, there is going to be opportunity--opportunity to lay hands on firearms in easy reach.  That's what I would see as the limited extent of gun control.  But I just mention that standing in the way (in America) is this almost religious devotion to the symbol of what RW'ers perceive as the core value of their America.  When you think "guns" (in America), think flag and bible.

The following is a typical, oft-seen picture representing American patriotism:

Seige in Sydney Minuteman

What is he holding?

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:01 pm

@Quill
Umm same here
Seige in Sydney Ned%20Kelly%20%27Such%20is%20Life%27%20Sticker

Seige in Sydney 3001194041_d5caf7f0cb_z


after the port Arthur massacre their was public support for the idea something had to be done, it probably helped that the move was implemented by John Howard one of the most RW prime ministers. (imagine If Reagan did it)

the thing is we are now 18 years on and people have got over it, the idea that 'a gun does not protect' many at the time complained about but that is majority opinion by a long way. So that is what I am pointing out that the US mental link between guns and patriotism will fade Like ours has.... Because well 'the safety' the reduction in gun deaths, the fact police don't draw there guns on people by default.

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:26 pm

veya_victaous wrote:@Quill
Umm same here
Seige in Sydney Ned%20Kelly%20%27Such%20is%20Life%27%20Sticker

Seige in Sydney 3001194041_d5caf7f0cb_z


after the port Arthur massacre their was public support for the idea something had to be done, it probably helped that the move was implemented by John Howard one of the most RW prime ministers. (imagine If Reagan did it)

the thing is we are now 18 years on and people have got over it, the idea that 'a gun does not protect'  many at the time complained about but that is majority opinion by a long way. So that is what I am pointing out that the US mental link between guns and patriotism will fade Like ours has.... Because well 'the safety' the reduction in gun deaths, the fact police don't draw there guns on people by default.

I guess it isn't the same thing, then.

On the other hand, if as you predict the gun affection will fade...good.

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:40 pm

@quill
John Howard may have been RW but
no one can deny he looked out for the best interest of Australia and was a shocked by the port Arthur massacre as anyone else.

It is a Shame that after Columbine it Didn't happen in the USA
Unfortunately I think you have all become too Accepting of it, like mass shooting are just part of Life and can't be avoided... I have actually heard Americans say that.

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Seige in Sydney Empty Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:14 pm

veya_victaous wrote:@quill
John Howard may have been RW but
no one can deny he looked out for the best interest of Australia and was a shocked by the port Arthur massacre as anyone else.

It is a Shame that after Columbine it Didn't happen in the USA
Unfortunately I think you have all become too Accepting of it, like mass shooting are just part of Life and can't be avoided... I have actually heard Americans say that.

I don't know whether to call it acceptance, or inevitable.  The world underestimates the power of national symbols, although we are learning, watching the power of the Korarn in Muslim life.

A national symbol represents a creed.  A creed may be religious, or it may be patriotic.  It evokes a group dedication and devotion of the highest order.  For example, Scots might find pride in wearing a kilt.  It's just a little thing, but when you find the authorities trying to take it away, you start a riot.

The flag, the bald eagle, the Washington Monument, the Lincoln Memorial, Mount Rushmore, the Star Spangled Banner, or even Yankee Doodle are all symbols of the American way of life.  So is the gun.  Try to take it away, and it's not only depriving one of his property, but it's an affront to his very pride and affection for his heritage.

That's what we are up against.  It's a much bigger challenge than just passing a law.

Well...we know that.  They've tried and failed. It is what it is.

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