Seige in Sydney

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Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:41 am

http://www.news.com.au/national/a-man-is-holding-several-people-hostage-at-martin-place-cafe/story-fncynjr2-1227156241649

ARMED men are holding 40 to 50 people hostage at a cafe in Martin Place in Sydney.

There are reports that two gunman have taken hostages, some of which are standing with their hands up at the windows in the popular Lindt chocolate shop, which has two or three entrances. There is also a black and white flag being held up in a window. It is believed to be the Black Standard, a jihadist flag.

Lindt Australia CEO Steve Loane told news.com.au he believes there are 40 to 50 people inside the cafe, including customers and staff.

The government’s National Security Committee of Cabinet has met for briefings on the situation this morning.

In a statement, Tony Abbott said he had also spoken with NSW Premier Mike Baird and “offered him all possible Commonwealth support and assistance”.

“This is obviously a deeply concerning incident but all Australians should be reassured that our law enforcement and security agencies are well trained and equipped and are responding in a thorough and professional manner,” he said.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:31 am

Wow, didn't know this kind to thing happened in Oz. Where did they get the guns? I thot they were illegal.

What's the plan? Robbery? Ransom? Or just showing the colors?

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:41 am

guy has a over under shotgun. You know the type like Victor uses to hunt Rabbits.



it is ISIS wannbes
5 hours none dead, gunmen surrounded

Conveniently timed to block all reporting of major financial report on gov't spending due out today and the announcement that we are giving Rupert 11 billion for an old outdated copper network as part of liberals NBN "Not Broadband Network"(as opposed to Labours, National Broadband Network) as opposed to spending 15 Billion of Brand New state of the are fibre optic lines.

If no one dies this is a political stunt cover-up the only thing of note about this Cafe is it is opposite a TV station.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:57 am

I saw. Found this:

Yahoo wrote:SYDNEY (AP) — A gunman took an unknown number of people hostage inside a downtown Sydney chocolate shop and cafe at the height of Monday morning rush hour, with two people inside the cafe seen holding up a flag believed to contain an Islamic declaration of faith.

Four hours after the incident first erupted inside the Lindt Chocolat Cafe, New South Wales state Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione said police had not made direct contact with the gunman, did not know his motivation and were not sure how many people were being held inside.

"We have not yet confirmed it is a terrorism-related event," Scipione said. "We're dealing with a hostage situation with an armed offender and we are dealing with it accordingly."

The cafe is located in Martin Place, a plaza in the heart of the city's financial and shopping district that is packed with holiday shoppers this time of year. Many of those inside the cafe would have been taken hostage as they stopped in for their morning coffees.

Hundreds of police flooded into the area, streets were closed and offices evacuated. The public was told to stay away from Martin Place, home to the state premier's office, the Reserve Bank of Australia, and the headquarters of two of the nation's largest banks. The state parliament house is a few blocks away.

Television footage shot through the cafe's windows showed several people with their arms in the air and hands pressed against the glass, and two people holding up what appeared to be a black flag with white Arabic writing on it.



This image taken from video shows people holding up hands inside a cafe in Sydney, Australia Monday, …

Zain Ali, the head of the Islamic Studies Research Unit at the University of Auckland, said it was difficult to read the message because media images showed only the lower part of the flag. But he believed it was the Shahada, or declaration of faith, largely because a black flag with white writing in a contemporary context often contains that message. He said he could make out the word "Muhammad."

Ali said the Shahada translates as "There is no deity of worship except God (Allah), and Muhammad is the messenger of God." It is considered the first pillar of Islam's five pillars of faith, and has been used by groups like al-Qaida and Islamic State but wasn't invented by them, Ali said.

"We don't know whether this is politically motivated, although obviously there are some indications that it could be," Prime Minister Tony Abbott told reporters in the nation's capital, Canberra. "We have to appreciate that even in a society such as ours, there are people who would wish to do us harm."

A police spokeswoman said no injuries had been reported from the incident. Heavily armed officers were lined up outside the cafe, and a man with a backpack inside the cafe could be seen walking back and forth in front of the glass doors.

"Police have been in attendance and have controlled the situation from very early this morning," said Scipione, the police commissioner. "We are at this stage continuing to secure and make sure that we are doing all we can to bring this to a peaceful outcome."

Abbott said the National Security Committee of Cabinet met to be briefed on the situation.

"The whole point of politically motivated violence is to scare people out of being themselves," Abbott said. "Australia is a peaceful, open and generous society — nothing should ever change that. And that's why I would urge all Australians today to go about their business as usual."

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Lone Wolf on Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:15 pm


     FORTUNATELY for me, I don't live or work in Sydney.   The traffic flow around Sydney will be even more of a nightmare than usual Tuesday morning ~ what with whole blocks around there "locked down" and a couple of major roads blocked...

SO FAR everything points to a lone IS supporter wanting to make a political statement, though he possibly had some/a couple of supporters helping him plan his actions..   THE actual number of hostages is more like 20 or so (half those early guesses) ~ with 5 already released on Monday afternoon.

WITH that street full of Anti-Terrorist and Tactical Response cops, that nutter isn't going anywhere; while with him only being in a cafe, it will be easy for a sniper to take him out, if he actually hurts anyone..

LOCAL Muslim communities and leaders are already condemning his actions ~ as is to be largely expected these days ~ with 'multi-faith' meetings and prayer vigils held on Monday night...

OUTSIDE of Sydney city, the main effect on most people in NSW and Oz so far is that the main commercial TV stations have had continual news coverage since Monday arvo' ~ meaning that new episodes of "Person of Interest", "Bones" and "Castle" didn't make it to air, putting us another week behind..  

UNLESS someone has family or friends amongst the hostages, of course.      Surprised

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Cass on Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:31 pm

looks like LE stormed in. Gun fire exchanged. people/hostages taken away in ambulance. CPR being performed on 2 people. No sign or word of gunman.......presumed to be dead? Hope so.

a pretend self styled sheik. On bail for sexual assault, accessory to ex-wifes murder.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:26 pm

He has been taken and hostages released. He had a shotgun. Iranian fellow, with several run-ins with the law. Past sex charges, although I look on that with a jaundiced eye, as bringing sex charges is the best way to discredit someone without evidence. Often a ruse by the authorities.

Couple of hostages injured, not sure how many. Anyway, it's over.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Lone Wolf on Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:04 pm

Newcastle Herald wrote:
NSW Police have confirmed the siege is over.

Shots have been fired, but police have not confirmed details of injuries or casualties.
Two hostages were reported as seen with injuries.

3:13am: Multiple hostages have been taken away by emergency services
Ambulance crews have entered the Lindt Cafe in Martin Place after the police confronted the gunman.

2:48am: More from the SMH's James Robertson, on Martin Place:
"Hostages came out in two groups. The first, a group of about five, with their hands up. That was after initial gunshots were fired. Then, witnesses say, after the volley, another group of roughly five."

READ more @ http://www.theherald.com.au/story/2767019/siege-ends-as-police-storm-cafe/?cs=303
(Sydney) Daily Telegraph wrote:
Sydney cafe siege ends in early hours
  By Sam McKeith and Toby Mann;   AAP   December 16, 2014 3:31AM

"SYDNEY siege is over. More details to follow," NSW police confirmed via Twitter about 2.40am (AEDT) on Tuesday.
The confirmation came after an escalation in the crisis about 2am, when five more hostages ran from the cafe where a gunman had been holed up with as many as 20 others since around 10am on Monday.

Initial television footage showed one man running out with his arms raised to police, who patted him down and escorted him to safety.
Minutes later, two more men and two women raced outside and were directed away by police.
Their escape was followed by what sounded like rapid gunfire as heavily-armed officers stormed the cafe.

A second volley of shots erupted before the cafe filled with police and paramedics.
A woman, thought to be middle-aged, was among at least four people carried from the scene on stretchers.
There was no word on the fate of the gunman, earlier identified as a 50-year-old self-styled sheik, Man Haron Monis.

READ more @ http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/breaking-news/hostages-run-from-sydney-cafe/story-fni0xqi3-1227157419956

WITH Four TV networks and Two major newspaper groups on the scene throughout, there's sure to be plenty of video footage and regular updates online, as the day unfolds..

THE term "sheik" is pretty meaningless these days. Like 'Lord' and 'Lady', any fool can add it to their names - even make it permanent by Deed Poll, like Susan Renouf did several years ago.  
Those titles never did carry any genuine weight, anyways..  

[Look at the time ! Here I was, being mugged by two cats wanting breakfast @ 4:00 a.m. !  cat  cat].

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Lone Wolf on Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:47 pm

What a Face

JUST reported on TV that there's three dead.

TWO during the end to siege (one supposedly the gunmen), and one hostage has reportedly died in hospital from a heart attack..

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:30 pm

A shotgun.  One shot, possibly two.  Not well thought out.

Dude, feed the kitties!


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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:57 pm

Seems Police killed all the dead...

A little bit silly the way they stormed it, they had guys in full bomb suits and he only had a shot gun... was the spraying the room with bullets really necessary? where was the sharpshooter?
Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect
I know it is real life but that would be a fail or very poor on pretty much any video game.

RIP innocent hostages
So sad so close to the holidays Sad

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:27 pm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2874121/Far-right-group-leader-blames-left-wing-bigots-Sydney-hostage-crisis-terrorism-expert-says-racist-attacks-against-Australian-Muslims-likely.html

I personally know Ralph he is the chairman of the ADL and I have heard him claim to be ex-SAS,
look up Australian & New Zealand Military Imposters, http://www.anzmi.net/index.php/component/sobipro/?pid=349&sid=409:Cerminara

The website claims that while Mr Cerminara did serve in the Australian Army from 2002-2004, he was “unceremoniously” discharged on the grounds of “Retention Not in the Service Interest”.
He was discharged under the rank of Gunner, otherwise known as a Private. It is just above the level of Recruit.
“We get information from veterans all over Australia,” said Phill Hobson, a spokesman for the website.
“When we get the tip we go ahead and research the person. We look at their military history and write it up.
“He’s a mongrel, the people that served with him in the army have said all kinds of reports about his horrible behaviour while he was serving.
“We think he’s a stupid, idiotic nut case, he’s just stirring up trouble. Instead of trying to make the whole thing work, he’s making it worse.
“His views are not necessarily those of the people that he served with.”

he is just a racist nutbag his ideas are as fundamentalist as the terrorists.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:07 pm

Thankfully the daily mail is Wrong about Aussies... one loon Wether Muslim or White doesn't not change our perceptions of the whole


http://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/australians-offer-to-ride-to-work-with-people-in-religious-a

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:49 am

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/sunrise-host-natalie-barr-breaks-down-as-she-reveals-she-knows-the-brother-of-siege-victim-katrina-dawson/story-fnpilxz1-1227157787948



SUNRISE host Natalie Barr has broken down in tears on air this morning after learning she knows the brother of the woman killed in last night’s siege.

With her voice shaky and tears in her eyes, Barr revealed that 38-year-old Katrina Dawson’s brother is a lawyer who has worked for Channel Seven.

“I’m just finding out Katrina Dawson was the sister of a prominent barrister Sandy Dawson who has done some work at Channel Seven,” Barr said, almost struggling to get the words out.

“Sandy Dawson, who I know and I have friends who know. A mother of three children. I’m just finding this out this morning.”

Ms Dawson, a barrister and mother of three children, aged eight, five and three, entered the Lindt Cafe yesterday morning to grab a coffee, reportedly part of her daily routine.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:16 am

http://www.buzzfeed.com/bradesposito/everyone-is-rather-upset-with-rupert-murdochs-latest-tweet

Media mogul Rupert Murdoch is taking a lot of criticism online for his latest tweet regarding the recent hostage situation in Sydney.

Rupert Murdoch @rupertmurdoch
AUST gets wake-call with Sydney terror. Only Daily Telegraph caught the bloody outcome at 2.00 am. Congrats.
7:19 AM - 16 Dec 14


Murdoch proves again why he is A massive fucking ----.
Rupert Wake the Fuck up to all the NOT TERRIFIED AUSSIES telling you and your fear monger fucktards to go fuck yourself

we wont hate our Aussie Muslim Brothers and Sisters Because your an old hated filled Piece of Shit that Should just fuck off and Die... yeah a wake up call the Guys that Owns most of the media is a racist dick that literally Uses the people murdered by a lone psycho to further his Politically motivated Hate Campaign!!!

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Lone Wolf on Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:07 am

veya_victaous wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2874121/Far-right-group-leader-blames-left-wing-bigots-Sydney-hostage-crisis-terrorism-expert-says-racist-attacks-against-Australian-Muslims-likely.html

I personally know Ralph he is the chairman of the ADL and I have heard him claim to be ex-SAS,
look up Australian & New Zealand Military Imposters, http://www.anzmi.net/index.php/component/sobipro/?pid=349&sid=409:Cerminara


The website claims that while Mr Cerminara did serve in the Australian Army from 2002-2004, he was “unceremoniously” discharged on the grounds of “Retention Not in the Service Interest”.
He was discharged under the rank of Gunner, otherwise known as a Private. It is just above the level of Recruit.
“We get information from veterans all over Australia,” said Phill Hobson, a spokesman for the website.
“When we get the tip we go ahead and research the person. We look at their military history and write it up.
“He’s a mongrel, the people that served with him in the army have said all kinds of reports about his horrible behaviour while he was serving.
“We think he’s a stupid, idiotic nut case, he’s just stirring up trouble. Instead of trying to make the whole thing work, he’s making it worse.
“His views are not necessarily those of the people that he served with.”

he is just a racist nutbag his ideas are as fundamentalist as the terrorists.



ONCE again the Daily Flail has shown just just what a fallacious dung heap it is...
And yet the likes of Ragg's, Tommy, Tess, and L'ilAndy still use it as one of their central references and "goto" sources..

TYPICAL Daily Failed ridiculous dross..


FOR THOSE who are not yet aware of how the SAS operates :
* Soldiers normally have a minimum of 3 years fulltime service before applying for SAS training ~ five years ago the Oz government introduced a "fast tracking" direct entry system for elitist recruits; but it's small quotas and stringent tests mean that these exceptions will only represent around 5-10% of each years intakes;
* SAS soldiers normally spend another 3-4 years training here in Oz before being deployed anywhere ~ with a minimum of 6-7 years f/t service, and most soldiers being promoted to officers ranks by the time they're sent o/s ~ IS IT any wonder that the Oz SAS is consistently ranked in the top 5 "Special Forces" units in the world
..

SO THERE is simply no way that someone who only spent a couple of years in a regular Army unit ~ whether in Oz, NZ, Britain, USA, Canada, Russia, China, South Africa, India or wherever ~ can claim to be "ex SAS/'Special Forces'/SEALS" !      

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Lone Wolf on Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:18 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Seems Police killed all the dead...

A little bit silly the way they stormed it, they had guys in full bomb suits and he only had a shot gun... was the spraying the room with bullets really necessary? where was the sharpshooter?
Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect
I know it is real life but that would be a fail or very poor on pretty much any video game.

RIP innocent hostages
So sad so close to the holidays Sad
Idea

THE Daily Telegraph reported earlier this morning (before the police 'stormed' the cafe..) that snipers were positioned "on the rooftops" opposite ~ and even had a photo' on their website purporting to be one of those snipers..

I TOO had thought that the police would use one of their snipers if things escalated. Surprised

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by eddie on Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:15 am

Why do Muslims want to terrorise people?
Sorry guys, but this was a Muslim, was it not?

These hardcore Muslims should be stopped.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:29 am

eddie wrote:Why do Muslims want to terrorise people?
Sorry guys, but this was a Muslim, was it not?

These hardcore Muslims should be stopped.

Quite right as should all the ones in tacit agreement.
Time to stop contemplating our navels and fight back
Hard.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:07 pm

eddie wrote:Why do Muslims want to terrorise people?
Sorry guys, but this was a Muslim, was it not?

These hardcore Muslims should be stopped.

He was also extremely short.  Radical shorties have to be watched very closely.  Shorties have a much different outlook on life.  They don't see things the same as decent, common folk like you and I.  Their view is aimed much lower, at more-or-less the lower strata of society.  Their perspective skews their social, and particularly their moral, and hence political ideas.

This is especially the case when they are veterans.  Veterans have special skills.  Shorties who are veterans have gone to special training sites, where they learn to disrupt society and bring the ideology or common outlook down to their level.  They aim lower, and as a result achieve much less.

Don't let the shorties take over.  There will be a meeting at the Longfellow's Lodge at 8 pm tonight to discuss what to do about the short problem. Cool

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:35 pm

This was awful, how one person can cause so much fear and heartbreak and not just for the people directly and indirectly involved Sad

How on earth this guy was out on bail I will never know No

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Lone Wolf on Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:06 pm

eddie wrote:
Why do Muslims want to terrorise people?
Sorry guys, but this was a Muslim, was it not?

These hardcore Muslims should be stopped.
Idea

WHY DO RW evangelical Teabaggers and Rabid anti-guvmn't Militants want to terrorise people ?


SAME reasons that Christian, Hindu, Sikh, Shinto, Buddhist, Separatist, Marxist and RW Militant "Terrorists" go out and try to "scare the beejeezus" out of sections of whole communities...

THE whole 'raison d'etre' of any and all "terroristm" worthy of the title is to terrorise, paralyse, stigmatise, and generally cause as much disturbance and mayhem as possible..


These hardcore Right Wing loonytoon Tory greedy Economic Rationalist cargo cult Teabaggers should be stopped !   I concur..      

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Lone Wolf on Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:30 pm

Nems wrote:
eddie wrote:
Why do Muslims want to terrorise people?
Sorry guys, but this was a Muslim, was it not?

These hardcore Muslims should be stopped.

Quite right as should all the ones in tacit agreement.
Time to stop contemplating our navels and fight back
Hard.


Suspect       AFTER you two - and all like-minded simple solution knee-jerkers of the same lazy mindset - have locked away, or preferably exterminated, all of the protesting and rallying groups in the world ~

THE Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Calathumpians, tree-huggers and cargo-cultists, Marxists and Tea Bag Militants, anti-slavery and anti-fascism protestors, Israelis and Palestinians, Kindergarten classes, Nationalists and Separatists, G10/G20 anarchists, teenagers in general, Trade Unionists and Coalminers, short and tall people, Fat people..

THAT would be a very empty, dry and boring old world you lot have created.  Until those robotic cybermen android overlords of veya's beloved T3/RoboCop-styled Dystopian future started rolling down your empty streets..      pale

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by eddie on Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:27 pm

Erm whatever Wolf.
This whole thread has been discussing the siege where a madman held people hostage and killed a few.
This wasn't a lonely outcast this was a Muslim attack.
Why are you all beating around the bush?

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:57 pm

eddie wrote:Erm whatever Wolf.
This whole thread has been discussing the siege where a madman held people hostage and killed a few.
This wasn't a lonely outcast this was a Muslim attack.
Why are you all beating around the bush?

NO Edds it was a lonely outcast
He was already basically excommunicated from the Muslim Community for Murdering his wife and falsely claiming to be a Cleric
He is as Muslim as the Crazy Guy that says Jesus wants him to kill abortion doctors...

he was roundly condemned STRAIGHT AWAY by all Muslim leaders here. It is only Murdoch papers that are even trying to suggest otherwise. really Murdoch is the biggest shit stirring hate monger out.


Glad to see that Here, were we do live together in peace, one loon has been called out for what he is One loon!!! the few Hundred hate messages have been drowned out by thousands of messages of unity from the community.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:58 pm



Enlarge
Caption

SYDNEY: More than 40 Australian Muslim groups on Monday (Dec 15) jointly condemned a siege at a Sydney cafe in which hostages were taken by an armed man and an Islamic flag displayed.

"We reject any attempt to take the innocent life of any human being or to instil fear and terror into their hearts," they said in a statement.

The black flag shown at a window in the Lindt cafe was one commonly used by militant groups bearing the shahada, or profession of faith in Islam. It said: "There is no God but Allah; Mohammed is his messenger."

The Muslim groups said the inscription "is not representative of a political statement, but reaffirms a testimony of faith that has been misappropriated by misguided individuals that represent no-one but themselves".

"Any such despicable act only serves to play into the agendas of those who seek to destroy the goodwill of the people of Australia and to further damage and ridicule the religion of Islam and Australian Muslims throughout this country," it added.

"Our immediate thoughts go to the hostages and their loved ones. We pray for their safety and hope this matter is resolved quickly and peacefully."

Religious leaders across Australia on Monday called on their followers to unite and pray for a peaceful end to the Sydney siege.

Mosques, synagogues and churches across the country welcomed worshippers on Monday night, in what their leaders said was a show of community solidarity. "In times of great adversity it is imperative that we remain calm, united and stand together," Lebanese Muslim Association president Samier Dandan said.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/australian-Muslim-groups/1530242.html


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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:00 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:Why do Muslims want to terrorise people?
Sorry guys, but this was a Muslim, was it not?

These hardcore Muslims should be stopped.

He was also extremely short.  Radical shorties have to be watched very closely.  Shorties have a much different outlook on life.  They don't see things the same as decent, common folk like you and I.  Their view is aimed much lower, at more-or-less the lower strata of society.  Their perspective skews their social, and particularly their moral, and hence political ideas.

This is especially the case when they are veterans.  Veterans have special skills.  Shorties who are veterans have gone to special training sites, where they learn to disrupt society and bring the ideology or common outlook down to their level.  They aim lower, and as a result achieve much less.

Don't let the shorties take over.  There will be a meeting at the Longfellow's Lodge at 8 pm tonight to discuss what to do about the short problem. Cool

Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool
Yes more must be done to stop the Militant Midgets
Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:02 pm

also this is actually the third siege this year the other 2 Tattooed up Good old White Anglo Aussies!!!

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by eddie on Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:43 pm

Look I'm not saying all Muslims kill people.
I'm saying; call a spade a spade.

The guy did it in the name of Islam
Just like the one who gunned down the children in Pakistan today.

Just because we don't want to come across as "racist" or "religionists" or whatever, doesn't mean we can't condemn those that do,things in the name of religion.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:34 pm

Yeah but I could go kill a bunch a people in the name of Newsfix
Does that mean that it was supported or in anyway condoned by members here?
AND as pointed out people do stuff in the name of things all the time but we don't focus on unless it is the 'dreaded Muslims'

Currently any outsider with a violent streak will be attracted to radical Islam just like in the 90's it was Satanist and the trench coat Mafia, basically WHATEVER mainstream media is scaring the masses with is going to attract the kind of person that wants an excuse to kill other people. It has very little to do with the group itself as the Media Identifies this man as Muslim even though he did not belong to any Mosque or religious organisation.

Pakistan is much more complex there is a massive economic divide between the tribal north west and the more westernised south east, this has fuelled fundamentalism in the poorer areas combined with US actions on the Afghan boarder has made it a place teeming with disposed that can easily be convinced by the unscrupulous. there is religion but there is also huge tribal and socio-economic divides. Again our Mainstream media always condenses this down to 'Islam' when really it is more about the new billionaires raping their fellow citizens and the collapse of old institutions that were more tied to religion instead of capitalism (just like in the west, it was one of the factors that drove the Napoleonic wars)

so lets call a spade a spade
Most attacks on western interests come in response to our corporations being immoral and unscrupulous in their treatment of locals they often engage in corruption to over ride local political processes. Our corporations literally murder and steal their way across the World STILL, US Fruit companies basically funded Farq in South America and as we know Al queda and the Taliban were both funded by US Oil and gas interests.

Anyway THIS WAS NOT ONE THIS WAS A LOON ALREADY GOING TO JAIL but questions are being asked about why he was let out on bail, and why he had recently been dropped from terror watch lists

Murdoch media is LYING and Promoting hatred, they are responsible for the avocation of multiple wars. they promote division in the community they promote exasperating the gap between rich and poor, they promote Greed and inequality they promote the idea that pushing people into poverty makes you 'smart investor' using your inheritance to prevent others form achieving success through hard work.
AND while all the news was happening the Australian govt bought an 11 billion dollar piece of rubbish of a Murdoch controlled conglomerate netting Rupert Approximately 4 billion Dollars of tax payer money.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Eilzel on Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:20 am

Whatever the guys mental condition we must acknowledge that this was an ISIS inspired attack. They called for attacks like this by Muslims in western nations. Would this have happened as it did were there not the whole ME crisis right now? If IS had not called for lone wolf attacks would this man have still been inspired to go and take hostages this way? I find it hard to believe he would- same as with what happened in Canada.

I do not blame all Muslims. But this was an IS inspired attacked, and IS are Islamist fanatics- don't pretend religion is nothing to do with it when it blatantly is.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:43 am

Eilzel wrote:Whatever the guys mental condition we must acknowledge that this was an ISIS inspired attack. They called for attacks like this by Muslims in western nations. Would this have happened as it did were there not the whole ME crisis right now? If IS had not called for lone wolf attacks would this man have still been inspired to go and take hostages this way? I find it hard to believe he would- same as with what happened in Canada.

I do not blame all Muslims. But this was an IS inspired attacked, and IS are Islamist fanatics- don't pretend religion is nothing to do with it when it blatantly is.

yes ISIS inspired
And does ISIS represent Islam?
NO it does not

would it have happened anyway?
Probably it is the THIRD this year, one of the others was almost identical
a Man on bail for murdering his estranged wife took hostages in a strip club
The other 2 were Anglo Aussies.

Again whole bunch of crazy include the Recently added 'On Trial for the Murder of his ex-Wife'
so was it Islam or maybe the fact that he would be going to jail for a very long time soon that led to the decision and basically suicidal actions?

Maybe part of the issue is actually the fact we let murders out on bail Suspect Suspect Suspect Suspect I have no idea why we do confused both cases it seem it was just delaying the inevitable and giving them a couple of months of freedom while bureaucracy took it's time.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Eilzel on Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:54 am

I certainly agree the system is part of the problem. Does IS represent Islam? No, no one group or person can claim that- but is their ideology rooted in Islam? Yes it is. Do millions of Muslims see them as pursuing an Islamic cause? Yes they do. IS is as representative of Islam to its supporters as the Pope is of Christianity to Catholics. Back to what happened in Sydney, other similar attacks have happened sure, but this one was inspired by Islam, the man openly demonstrated as much.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:29 am

Eilzel wrote:I certainly agree the system is part of the problem. Does IS represent Islam? No, no one group or person can claim that- but is their ideology rooted in Islam? Yes it is. Do millions of Muslims see them as pursuing an Islamic cause? Yes they do. IS is as representative of Islam to its supporters as the Pope is of Christianity to Catholics. Back to what happened in Sydney, other similar attacks have happened sure, but this one was inspired by Islam, the man openly demonstrated as much.

NO IT IS NOT
how can you claim that a Minority, in a minority region, with minimal support is representative of the Majority? equal to the Enshrined representative?
A more reasonable comparison to the Pope(there in not a central figure in Islam), in Australia at least, is Grand Mufti Ibrahim Abu Mohamed, the country's highest Islamic office holder.
'The Grand Mufti and the Australian National Imam Council condemn this criminal act unequivocally and reiterate that such actions are denounced in part and in whole in Islam,' Professor Mohamed said in a statement.


Do Million MORE Muslims see ISIS as evil backwater terrorists (like Quill and Ben see George Bush voting rednecks) HELL YEAH
the numbers are not even close over 90% of Muslims groups CONDEMN ISIS FULLY !!!

a Crazy Person's INSPIRATION doesn't mean shit. It is No more valid than saying TV and Movies caused the School shooting in the USA.


THANK Fully I live in a Nation that will work on the route causes
Not one of the Points is Islam.. Mental health treatment, Bail conditions, ties with Iran (we should have listen to them about this Loon) Watch lists and Intelligence agencies

http://www.news.com.au/national/how-did-sydney-siege-gunman-man-haron-monis-slip-through-the-cracks/story-fncynjr2-1227159015884


Some of Australia’s most influential voices have admitted mistakes were made, and hopefully developments will come from these reviews.

“The system did not adequately deal with this individual, there’s no doubt about that,” Mr Abbott said today.

“This is why we’ve got to constantly be asking ourselves is this the best we can do. Frankly we’ve got to always be better.”

Even Tony Abbott Is not suggest Islam has Anything to do with this


And to ADD some extra Crazy to this LOON he was a Shiite Muslim A.k.a. on ISIS's kill list. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:35 am

Also no one is blaming guns Neutral
as the one he used is a tool and needed by farmers.

Actually really proud of how smart and reasonable my nation and fellow citizens are being about this pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat

it is a loon we know we don't do the best on mental health and we have very soft bail rules it is the biggest one but not the only one this year... and interstign if it woudl have got the international attention if he didn't put up the IS-like flag (it isn't actually but quite similar)

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Cass on Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:15 am

veya_victaous wrote:
eddie wrote:Erm whatever Wolf.
This whole thread has been discussing the siege where a madman held people hostage and killed a few.
This wasn't a lonely outcast this was a Muslim attack.
Why are you all beating around the bush?

NO Edds it was a lonely outcast
He was already basically excommunicated from the Muslim Community for Murdering his wife and falsely claiming to be a Cleric
He is as Muslim as the Crazy Guy that says Jesus wants him to kill abortion doctors...

he was roundly condemned STRAIGHT AWAY by all Muslim leaders here. It is only Murdoch papers that are even trying to suggest otherwise. really Murdoch is the biggest shit stirring hate monger out.

Glad to see that Here, were we do live together in peace, one loon has been called out for what he is One loon!!! the few Hundred hate messages have been drowned out by thousands of messages of unity from the community.

totally agree
#illridewithyou



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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:04 am

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/how-scene-of-tragedy-blossomed-into-a-sea-of-flowers/story-fnj3rq0y-1227159293041

The ever growing Sea of Flowers


Lines for Blocks to Add more


Messages of Grief



Messages of Hope



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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:13 am

veya wrote:Also no one is blaming guns Neutral
as the one he used is a tool and needed by farmers.

Guns are an inanimate object. You can't blame them for an intentional act.

Gun control is only about removing the opportunity that guns present...for the mentally ill, for the drunk, for the quick tempered or abusive person.

If a person has a plan, and it involves shooting someone, he will lay his hands on a gun. Case in point right here.

I think it's dangerous and misleading to argue that gun control is a panacea for all gun deaths. Gun control just removes the immediate opportunity.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:50 am

Original Quill wrote:
veya wrote:Also no one is blaming guns Neutral
as the one he used is a tool and needed by farmers.

Guns are an inanimate object.  You can't blame them for an intentional act.

Gun control is only about removing the opportunity that guns present...for the mentally ill, for the drunk, for the quick tempered or abusive person.

If a person has a plan, and it involves shooting someone, he will lay his hands on a gun.  Case in point right here.

I think it's dangerous and misleading to argue that gun control is a panacea for all gun deaths.  Gun control just removes the immediate opportunity.

the differences are in
the amount of dead. the speed in which they can kill so many people etc etc..
Gun control does limit the Vast majority of gun deaths, there is no need for semi automatic rifles or handguns in the community, which would have potentially done a lot more damage with more deaths.

the things we know GUN CONTROL Saves Thousands of lives that why we are hardly in double digits for gun deaths while USA is 5 figures year after year.
The thing is you cannot achieve a Zero sum as you then need to move stupidly too far the other way. I still expected some to call for tighter gun control and expected to see more Anti-islam stuff in the media, the idea of reaching a Zero Sum is silly we are not trying to do that just make it the minimum. removing most guns from the community does successfully do that. it is not just opportunity it is attitude towards gun violence, 'the castle defence', 'stand your ground' rubbish that inevitably goes with a nation where most citizens are gun owners. we inevitably see Police move to 'siege' mentality as a result of trying to enforce laws where so many are equipped to murder them.

it is more surprising that the real reasons and causes and possible preventions are being discussed.. we are actually talking and acting like adults pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat pirat Unheard of after national tragedy pirat pirat pirat pirat

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:16 am

Gun control only limits opportunity. It cannot stop a person determined to get his hand of a firearm.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:50 am

Original Quill wrote:Gun control only limits opportunity.  It cannot stop a person determined to get his hand of a firearm.

NOPE it has a massive impact on the social norms, public opinion and Behaviours around Fire arms and the Police attitude to citizens when arresting them.
Much more than Just access and opportunity they are the Immediate changes but in less than 2 decades the attitudes towards citizen with guns and the needs of citizens to own guns changes dramatically. When they first got rid of them people went on about self defence and how that was a valid 'need' now that would get you looked at like a potential murderer and definitely a bit of a nutjob for suggesting you need a gun to protect yourself.

Like I said in the other thread
the US cant even begin to address a lot of issues around Racism Because every one is too worried (with good reason) that the other guy is going to shoot them.
I can Guarantee you attitudes change when everyone knows the other guy isn't going to shoot them.

Even Ben has said he owns a hand gun for protection.
Here that would make him a weirdo nutjob Or a Criminal, either way many people would report him to the police, If he was licensed he would be likely to lose it for expressing the idea of using against another human being.

we have a 10th your population but only a 1000th of your gun deaths, statically the difference is hundreds to 1 in lives lost.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Lone Wolf on Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:10 am

eddie wrote:  
Look I'm not saying all Muslims kill people.

YES, you have before now, and likely will do so again...

I'm saying; call a spade a spade.

You, Elizel and Nems are the ons calling a spade a shovel..

The guy did it in the name of Islam

He could have also done it in the name of Fred or Gertrude and the result would have beeen the same !

Just like the one who gunned down the children in Pakistan today.

THE TALIBAN murdered those children, in the end ~ they are beyond any religious zalotry..

Just because we don't want to come across as "racist" or "religionists" or whatever, doesn't mean we can't condemn those that do, things in the name of religion.

Just because somebody kills in the "name" of a religion DOESN'T mean that they genuinely believed their religion "makes" them do anything..
He was also a loner and a nutter with a criminal record



Last edited by Lone Wolf on Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:29 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Lone Wolf on Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:27 am

eddie wrote:
Erm whatever Wolf.
This whole thread has been discussing the siege where a madman held people hostage and killed a few.
This wasn't a lonely outcast this was a Muslim attack.
Why are you all beating around the bush?

Rolling Eyes

UNFORTUNATELY neither you, Nems (or Ragg's on a couple of other threads..) could be bothered to make yourselves a genuine part of any discussions on this subject...

YOU three always dive into your usual hatemongering routines and personal agendas "right from the get go" !

WHAT exactly is a "Muslim attack" then, eddie ?  
WAS Timothy McVeigh a "Christian attack" ?
WAS the Tokyo subway gassing a "Shinto attack" ?
WAS Rajiv Ghandi's assassination a "Sikh attack" ?


YOU really do talk a load of rubbish in the name of religious bigotry..      

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Eilzel on Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:25 pm

It's Islamic terrorism if the culprit is waving a black Islamic flag and claiming to want an ISIS flag.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:32 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Gun control only limits opportunity.  It cannot stop a person determined to get his hand of a firearm.

NOPE it has a massive impact on the social norms, public opinion and Behaviours around Fire arms and the Police attitude to citizens when arresting them.
Much more than Just access and opportunity they are the Immediate changes but in less than 2 decades the attitudes towards citizen with guns and the needs of citizens to own guns changes dramatically. When they first got rid of them people went on about self defence and how that was a valid 'need' now that would get you looked at like a potential murderer and definitely a bit of a nutjob for suggesting you need a gun to protect yourself.

Like I said in the other thread
the US cant even begin to address a lot of issues around Racism Because every one is too worried (with good reason) that the other guy is going to shoot them.
I can Guarantee you attitudes change when everyone knows the other guy isn't going to shoot them.

Even Ben has said he owns a hand gun for protection.
Here that would make him a weirdo nutjob Or a Criminal, either way many people would report him to the police, If he was licensed he would be likely to lose it for expressing the idea of using against another human being.

we have a 10th your population but only a 1000th of your gun deaths, statically the difference is hundreds to 1 in lives lost.

Like I said, "Gun control only limits opportunity.  It cannot stop a person determined to get his hand of a firearm."  I'm all for things like education, background checks, tightening laws on access, but they are no guarantee.  For example:

*  Gun control is not going to stop racism.

*  Gun control is not going to stop police brutality.

*  Gun control is not going to stop crime.

I speak up not because I am not pleased about the things that have happened in Oz regarding limits on firearms, but to say that the road is much tougher in the US.  In America, limiting the gun is not merely a matter of eliminating the reasons to have a gun.  The firearm in this country is the equivalent of the flag or the bible in any other country.  

The gun has significant symbolism in America, which admittedly is always going to be wrapped up in reasons like self-defense, government tyranny, crime prevention and and other excuses.  But those reasons are not what is next to the heart for the average American; what is next to the heart is the symbolism of the gun.  Over the centuries the firearm has become synonymous with freedom and the ability to go anywhere and do anything (that is lawful).  Gun control laws are looked upon like communism or socialism: that which seeks to limit and curtail the capacity of man to be all he or she wants to be.

When I speak of the 'average American' I am not necessarily speaking of everyone in the absolute.  Rather, I am speaking of a strong theme in America, undoubtedly which gets stronger the farther right one goes.  There is yet a strong left in this country, and certainly a strong sentiment for gun control.

Indeed, as long as gun control is stymied, there is going to be opportunity--opportunity to lay hands on firearms in easy reach.  That's what I would see as the limited extent of gun control.  But I just mention that standing in the way (in America) is this almost religious devotion to the symbol of what RW'ers perceive as the core value of their America.  When you think "guns" (in America), think flag and bible.

The following is a typical, oft-seen picture representing American patriotism:



What is he holding?

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:01 pm

@Quill
Umm same here





after the port Arthur massacre their was public support for the idea something had to be done, it probably helped that the move was implemented by John Howard one of the most RW prime ministers. (imagine If Reagan did it)

the thing is we are now 18 years on and people have got over it, the idea that 'a gun does not protect' many at the time complained about but that is majority opinion by a long way. So that is what I am pointing out that the US mental link between guns and patriotism will fade Like ours has.... Because well 'the safety' the reduction in gun deaths, the fact police don't draw there guns on people by default.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:26 am

veya_victaous wrote:@Quill
Umm same here





after the port Arthur massacre their was public support for the idea something had to be done, it probably helped that the move was implemented by John Howard one of the most RW prime ministers. (imagine If Reagan did it)

the thing is we are now 18 years on and people have got over it, the idea that 'a gun does not protect'  many at the time complained about but that is majority opinion by a long way. So that is what I am pointing out that the US mental link between guns and patriotism will fade Like ours has.... Because well 'the safety' the reduction in gun deaths, the fact police don't draw there guns on people by default.

I guess it isn't the same thing, then.

On the other hand, if as you predict the gun affection will fade...good.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by veya_victaous on Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:40 am

@quill
John Howard may have been RW but
no one can deny he looked out for the best interest of Australia and was a shocked by the port Arthur massacre as anyone else.

It is a Shame that after Columbine it Didn't happen in the USA
Unfortunately I think you have all become too Accepting of it, like mass shooting are just part of Life and can't be avoided... I have actually heard Americans say that.

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Lone Wolf on Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:44 am

Smile

ONE extra aspect to the "American love affair with their guns" has to include the fact that the half dozen largest non-government gun manufacturers in the world ~ including the likes of Colt, Winchester, Ruger, Remington ~ are incessantly working to protect their market, and look after their own interests...

THE gun manufacturers control the NRA..
THEY also "own" several American politicians..
AND they both openly and secretly back 'gun rights' and 'open carry' protests, as well as financing militia and KKK groups..


A situation unknown in any other country in the world !

EVEN the Czech-Russian Kalashnikov corporation opened a manufacturing facility in the USA at the beginning of this year, to meet the North American demand for legitimate sales of "AK**" firearms..

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Re: Seige in Sydney

Post by Original Quill on Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:14 am

veya_victaous wrote:@quill
John Howard may have been RW but
no one can deny he looked out for the best interest of Australia and was a shocked by the port Arthur massacre as anyone else.

It is a Shame that after Columbine it Didn't happen in the USA
Unfortunately I think you have all become too Accepting of it, like mass shooting are just part of Life and can't be avoided... I have actually heard Americans say that.

I don't know whether to call it acceptance, or inevitable.  The world underestimates the power of national symbols, although we are learning, watching the power of the Korarn in Muslim life.

A national symbol represents a creed.  A creed may be religious, or it may be patriotic.  It evokes a group dedication and devotion of the highest order.  For example, Scots might find pride in wearing a kilt.  It's just a little thing, but when you find the authorities trying to take it away, you start a riot.

The flag, the bald eagle, the Washington Monument, the Lincoln Memorial, Mount Rushmore, the Star Spangled Banner, or even Yankee Doodle are all symbols of the American way of life.  So is the gun.  Try to take it away, and it's not only depriving one of his property, but it's an affront to his very pride and affection for his heritage.

That's what we are up against.  It's a much bigger challenge than just passing a law.

Well...we know that.  They've tried and failed. It is what it is.

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