Why must we be......

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Post by Guest on Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:58 pm

First topic message reminder :

Better than them??

all across so many threads. about ISIS we keep seeing the words "we must be better than them" or "we must not stoop to their level"

the bleatings of those already beaten and preparing their own eulogy "I was better than you"

cowards and defeatists all

why the hell NOT fight fire with fire...if we HAVE to fight em with boots on the ground then relieve our fighters of ALL responsibility to the enemy period...no quarter no mercy and most certainly NO prisoners...UNTIL THEY learn to act a little civilised and respect human rights /geneva convention rules. IF they want to fight according to "allahs" rules then fine...and so should we...The we=st has the mightiest armies going and is crippled into helplesness in the face of savages....you couldnt make it up.....

and all with the encouragement, indeed coersion of the lefty defeatists and "peaceniks" who would sooner sell tgheir children into slavery of some islamic vson of hell than stand up and kick brutality in the bollocks first...

there is a simple change to the "golden rule".....do unto others as they would do unto you.....but do it first

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Post by Guest on Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:07 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Anyway this thread is not about me and whether I am a racist or not.....



Here is my answer to Zack on my proposed course of action against ISIS....




Doing something rather than doing nothing.Multi national forces deployed to restore order and security and to hunt down, arrest or take out the terrorist murderers.Only then will the full extent of what's been happening come to light.Then after a period of truth and reconciliation, a strong unity government needs to be established to take control

Lol! That's not a bad strategy and doesn't seem to break international law.

It's seems to be the strategy the West and UN are going to employ.


But as seen this happened in Afghanistan and because of the Iraq war, the foot was taken off the gas to complete the job there and in time allowed the Taliban to reform, of which is going to be the problem here, unless you take the vast majority of IS and those that support and fund them out.
The reality is this is a much better time to take them on than before because Muslim support against extremism has grown much bigger, to the point of fear from many themselves, which this should be capitalized on, taking on IS and obtaining the support of many Arab nations as well to take them on, as this will deny IS any propaganda platform

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Post by Cass on Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:58 pm

the multi-national forces MUST include troops from Middle Eastern countries and the western troops must ALL be exemplary - otherwise this is not going to work and we will end up again with a long drawn out occupation. I'm still not convinced that doing this will achieve anything except to bog us down and hand them a reason to continue.

Saudi, Egypt, Jordan etc....must get off the fence, condemn them publicly, provide resources and take an active part. they have to grow the balls and put up. But they wont cause they're all too worried about this visiting their countries and putting their positions of power in danger.

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Post by Guest on Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:07 pm

Cass wrote:the multi-national forces MUST include troops from Middle Eastern countries and the western troops must ALL be exemplary - otherwise this is not going to work and we will end up again with a long drawn out occupation. I'm still not convinced that doing this will achieve anything except to bog us down and hand them a reason to continue.

Saudi, Egypt, Jordan etc....must get off the fence, condemn them publicly, provide resources and take an active part. they have to grow the balls and put up. But they wont cause they're all too worried about this visiting their countries and putting their positions of power in danger.



There you go, what I have been saying already before, where they need to deny the extremists any propaganda platform, with arab nations taking the lead here, but on treating IS with Geneva rules on warfare I do not advocate, they do not hold such views and as seen those who face combat lose friends who become very much family, hence why i will not condemn those that shoot injured extremists. If we try men who are already under such strain it again plays into the extremists hand Cass and these extremists hold no such view to play fair or treat any humans with civility, they only know hate and use fear to control people, thus we must use the same to defeat them

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Post by Cass on Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:26 pm

Didge wrote:
Cass wrote:the multi-national forces MUST include troops from Middle Eastern countries and the western troops must ALL be exemplary - otherwise this is not going to work and we will end up again with a long drawn out occupation. I'm still not convinced that doing this will achieve anything except to bog us down and hand them a reason to continue.

Saudi, Egypt, Jordan etc....must get off the fence, condemn them publicly, provide resources and take an active part. they have to grow the balls and put up. But they wont cause they're all too worried about this visiting their countries and putting their positions of power in danger.

There you go, what I have been saying already before, where they need to deny the extremists any propaganda platform, with arab nations taking the lead here, but on treating IS with Geneva rules on warfare I do not advocate, they do not hold such views and as seen those who face combat lose friends who become very much family, hence why i will not condemn those that shoot injured extremists. If we try men who are already under such strain it again plays into the extremists hand Cass and these extremists hold no such view to play fair or treat any humans with civility, they only know hate and use fear to control people, thus we must use the same to defeat them

that's not warfare didge - that's murder plain and simple - same as a police officer who shoots a suspect who goes down injured and is no longer a threat but then empties his gun into him and kills him. How by prosecuting these incidents does it play into the terrorist's hand? It shows the exact opposite.


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Post by Guest on Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:31 pm

Cass wrote:
Didge wrote:

There you go, what I have been saying already before, where they need to deny the extremists any propaganda platform, with arab nations taking the lead here, but on treating IS with Geneva rules on warfare I do not advocate, they do not hold such views and as seen those who face combat lose friends who become very much family, hence why i will not condemn those that shoot injured extremists. If we try men who are already under such strain it again plays into the extremists hand Cass and these extremists hold no such view to play fair or treat any humans with civility, they only know hate and use fear to control people, thus we must use the same to defeat them

that's not warfare didge - that's murder plain and simple - same as a police officer who shoots a suspect who goes down injured and is no longer a threat but then empties his gun into him and kills him. How by prosecuting these incidents does it play into the terrorist's hand? It shows the exact opposite.




All warfare is murder Cass, lets face some home truths here, as no killing is morally right, but as seen those who fight against us in IS, have no compassion and use fear and genocide and thus to me lose any rights to any compassion. They murder and rape, they lost the rights to being classed as human the minute they joined IS. Prosecuting is a waste of time and money as is placing them in jails, as seen many do not turn away from this extremist, they are so indoctrinated, so why waste time and money on people that have no care for the human rights of others, sorry it is harsh but practical and the reality is I fail to see what is the use of keeping such scum alive

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Post by Cass on Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:33 pm

because it goes against everything we in the west supposedly stand for.

anyways got to go and do stuff.

later x

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Post by Guest on Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:35 pm

Cass wrote:because it goes against everything we in the west supposedly stand for.

anyways got to go and do stuff.

later x


Which is why we are not dealing with the problem of this extremism, we are playing into their hands because of our decency, and many wars are not won by being decent Cass, because war has always been a dirty business

All the best

x

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Post by veya_victaous on Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:45 pm

@didge
we play into their hand with out indecency, we are not always good and exemplary.

Cass is 100% right.

That's why I support Our forces going in with the Kurds and anyone else wanting to join the fight against ISIS... but reality is they are not a threat to us, they may be a threat to some of the western interests in the middle east but they are still insignificant on the scale of world military power.

the Top ends of reports put their forces at up to 45,000 troops...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93_Iraq
and the when we invaded in 2003 UK alone sent 46,000 troops (of a far more professional quality)

the USA deployed 150,000 and that was while it had forces in Afghanistan,
the USA literally took control of all the territory ISIS now controls in a matter of days!!!

they are not a threat that cannot be dealt with without resorting to drastic measures.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:23 am

It's really not hard. If you want to consider yourself more moral or civilized than someone else, you have to behave in a way that's more moral or civilized than they do. Justifications can be safely thrown out the window, because there is nobody on earth who doesn't justify their actions. People very rarely tell themselves they're the bad guy, and almost never until after they've done something horrible.

When you talk of throwing out things like the Geneva Conventions, you mean torturing people, killing civilians, etc. These acts are why we don't like groups like IS. If you act like IS, you're no better than IS, no matter what rationale you use to defend it. You think the people in IS think of themselves as evil? Of course they don't, they think of us as evil and they can point to things such as what's already been mentioned in this thread to justify their violence and inhumanity.

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:34 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:It's really not hard. If you want to consider yourself more moral or civilized than someone else, you have to behave in a way that's more moral or civilized than they do. Justifications can be safely thrown out the window, because there is nobody on earth who doesn't justify their actions. People very rarely tell themselves they're the bad guy, and almost never until after they've done something horrible.

When you talk of throwing out things like the Geneva Conventions, you mean torturing people, killing civilians, etc. These acts are why we don't like groups like IS. If you act like IS, you're no better than IS, no matter what rationale you use to defend it. You think the people in IS think of themselves as evil? Of course they don't, they think of us as evil and they can point to things such as what's already been mentioned in this thread to justify their violence and inhumanity.


Sorry but wars are not won, by being squeaky clean and tough acts have to be carried out to win conflicts, there is again nothing moral about war, being as people are killed and the Geneva convention never contemplated the likes of groups like IS, who have no intention of abiding by it yet the west is suppose to apply it to the letter when fighting them, which places them at a distinct disadvantage.
So there is nothing moral or civilized about war in the first place, where it dehumanizes all those who fight in it, what you must not do is give an advantage to the enemy and this enemy has no care for any human life and thus new tactics need to be brought in where no quarter is given to them and their supporters. For over 10 years the west has been fighting a losing battle against Islamic extremism, because we have not taken the battle to those that fund them and support them, which is where the battle should taken with assassination squads. Having conventional battles with these groups has as seen never been successful and never will, thus you have to treat this enemy, as it treats others, with no compassion.

That is war

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Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:17 am

Does anyone believe that releasing the military from the constraints of complying with the Geneva Convention would actually defeat terrorism? Or would evidence showing that they don't comply just be used by the terrorists as propaganda to recruit even more to commit their heinous acts?

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:23 am

Irn Bru wrote:Does anyone believe that releasing the military from the constraints of complying with the Geneva Convention would actually defeat terrorism? Or would evidence showing that they don't comply just be used by the terrorists as propaganda to recruit even more to commit their heinous acts?

Seems to me they have no trouble recruiting as things stand at present

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:23 am

Irn Bru wrote:Does anyone believe that releasing the military from the constraints of complying with the Geneva Convention would actually defeat terrorism? Or would evidence showing that they don't comply just be used by the terrorists as propaganda to recruit even more to commit their heinous acts?



Look at the evidence Irn, conventional means have failed to defeat for example the Taliban, who again have launched an offensive and are gaining ground, the reality of which is we did not take the fight to the enemy as already stated. War is a difficult concept and if it means taking more difficult decisions then that is what you need to do to win. The reality is the extremists play on the weakness of being confined to the Geneva convention, of which they do not abide by, this point being valid, thus why should we apply any such compassion to a group of people that rape and murder others?
In war the reality is people die in combat, so why are people so squeamish to the Idea of assassinating our enemies, whether they be troops or those that fund them? The reality is this would be taking the fight to them and would mean less innocent civilians dying and would also show the west and strong, with a view to taking no shit from its enemies, again you have to be tough if you want to win, because if we go by the last 10 years, it has failed using conventional means

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:26 am

Irn Bru wrote:Does anyone believe that releasing the military from the constraints of complying with the Geneva Convention would actually defeat terrorism? Or would evidence showing that they don't comply just be used by the terrorists as propaganda to recruit even more to commit their heinous acts?

So far that's exactly what's happened. Every jihadi who joined up after the mid-2000s or so was shown mainstream media coverage of what was going on at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay.

I think a voice in the wilderness nobody's paid enough attention to (especially Obama) has been none other than Vice President Joe Biden, who called for special forces in smaller numbers doing precision targeting of actual terrorists (instead of what our regular forces often destroy, like wedding parties). Not only would it be a smaller investment in stopping terrorism, it would be a smarter investment, as special forces are light years beyond the average Army grunt and are the type that can turn an almost totally botched raid on bin Laden's compound into victory.

Special forces are widely heralded for their ability to hit the real bad guys and not civilians, and to know the difference -- they just make it their job to get it right; they're professional in ways a lot of the military doesn't seem to understand. I think if you want to fight terrorists, you don't abandon the rules of the civilized world, you just give the job to the very best you have, just like the terrorists only trust their best with planning attacks like what we've seen and let the dummies be suicide bombers.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:28 am

Nems wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:Does anyone believe that releasing the military from the constraints of complying with the Geneva Convention would actually defeat terrorism? Or would evidence showing that they don't comply just be used by the terrorists as propaganda to recruit even more to commit their heinous acts?

Seems to me they have no trouble recruiting as things stand at present

Well no, Nems, and as long as things like waterboarding and the humiliations of Abu Ghraib exist, they won't. Those things present their recruits with depictions of evil acts. What we have to do is marginalize IS and its allies in their own part of the world, so that they can't recruit.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:31 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:Does anyone believe that releasing the military from the constraints of complying with the Geneva Convention would actually defeat terrorism? Or would evidence showing that they don't comply just be used by the terrorists as propaganda to recruit even more to commit their heinous acts?



Look at the evidence Irn, conventional means have failed to defeat for example the Taliban, who again have launched an offensive and are gaining ground, the reality of which is we did not take the fight to the enemy as already stated. War is a difficult concept and if it means taking more difficult decisions then that is what you need to do to win. The reality is the extremists play on the weakness of being confined to the Geneva convention, of which they do not abide by, this point being valid, thus why should we apply any such compassion to a group of people that rape and murder others?
In war the reality is people die in combat, so why are people so squeamish to the Idea of assassinating our enemies, whether they be troops or those that fund them? The reality is this would be taking the fight to them and would mean less innocent civilians dying and would also show the west and strong, with a view to taking no shit from its enemies, again you have to be tough if you want to win, because if we go by the last 10 years, it has failed using conventional means

I think the larger question is whether anybody from the West has the right to take out the Taliban, beyond seeking justice for terror attacks against the West. It's just like in Iraq -- Saddam should have been taken down by Iraqis, not by a U.S.-led coalition working on behalf of oil companies who just wanted access to the world's third-largest (and nationalized) oil reserves. People can see the truth with their own eyes no matter where they live, and they knew the "regime change" in Iraq was just another example of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:34 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Didge wrote:



Look at the evidence Irn, conventional means have failed to defeat for example the Taliban, who again have launched an offensive and are gaining ground, the reality of which is we did not take the fight to the enemy as already stated. War is a difficult concept and if it means taking more difficult decisions then that is what you need to do to win. The reality is the extremists play on the weakness of being confined to the Geneva convention, of which they do not abide by, this point being valid, thus why should we apply any such compassion to a group of people that rape and murder others?
In war the reality is people die in combat, so why are people so squeamish to the Idea of assassinating our enemies, whether they be troops or those that fund them? The reality is this would be taking the fight to them and would mean less innocent civilians dying and would also show the west and strong, with a view to taking no shit from its enemies, again you have to be tough if you want to win, because if we go by the last 10 years, it has failed using conventional means

I think the larger question is whether anybody from the West has the right to take out the Taliban, beyond seeking justice for terror attacks against the West. It's just like in Iraq -- Saddam should have been taken down by Iraqis, not by a U.S.-led coalition working on behalf of oil companies who just wanted access to the world's third-largest (and nationalized) oil reserves. People can see the truth with their own eyes no matter where they live, and they knew the "regime change" in Iraq was just another example of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss."



Well that is not looking at the bigger picture Ben or the fact there were plenty of terrorist training camps inside Afghanistan which were being used to train terrorists to target the west, so yes the Taliban are very much a threat to the west and if allowed to establish power again, this will happen again, with a an ever increasing threat to the west, where again they see the west as the enemy. Iraq is different and yes it was wrong to go to war there, but Afghanistan was justified

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Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:36 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:Does anyone believe that releasing the military from the constraints of complying with the Geneva Convention would actually defeat terrorism? Or would evidence showing that they don't comply just be used by the terrorists as propaganda to recruit even more to commit their heinous acts?



Look at the evidence Irn, conventional means have failed to defeat for example the Taliban, who again have launched an offensive and are gaining ground, the reality of which is we did not take the fight to the enemy as already stated. War is a difficult concept and if it means taking more difficult decisions then that is what you need to do to win. The reality is the extremists play on the weakness of being confined to the Geneva convention, of which they do not abide by, this point being valid, thus why should we apply any such compassion to a group of people that rape and murder others?
In war the reality is people die in combat, so why are people so squeamish to the Idea of assassinating our enemies, whether they be troops or those that fund them? The reality is this would be taking the fight to them and would mean less innocent civilians dying and would also show the west and strong, with a view to taking no shit from its enemies, again you have to be tough if you want to win, because if we go by the last 10 years, it has failed using conventional means

But the US military were released from complying with the Geneva Convention and there is plenty evidence around to show that in many occasions that it wasn't complied with. Stuff showing that has been used as propaganda to recruit new terrorists and over the past 10 years or so and things have got a whole lot worse with satellite groups claiming affiliation to groups like al-Qaeda springing up all over the place. The USA is now seen oven more as a big back Satan than it ever was.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:42 am

Didge wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Didge wrote:



Look at the evidence Irn, conventional means have failed to defeat for example the Taliban, who again have launched an offensive and are gaining ground, the reality of which is we did not take the fight to the enemy as already stated. War is a difficult concept and if it means taking more difficult decisions then that is what you need to do to win. The reality is the extremists play on the weakness of being confined to the Geneva convention, of which they do not abide by, this point being valid, thus why should we apply any such compassion to a group of people that rape and murder others?
In war the reality is people die in combat, so why are people so squeamish to the Idea of assassinating our enemies, whether they be troops or those that fund them? The reality is this would be taking the fight to them and would mean less innocent civilians dying and would also show the west and strong, with a view to taking no shit from its enemies, again you have to be tough if you want to win, because if we go by the last 10 years, it has failed using conventional means

I think the larger question is whether anybody from the West has the right to take out the Taliban, beyond seeking justice for terror attacks against the West. It's just like in Iraq -- Saddam should have been taken down by Iraqis, not by a U.S.-led coalition working on behalf of oil companies who just wanted access to the world's third-largest (and nationalized) oil reserves. People can see the truth with their own eyes no matter where they live, and they knew the "regime change" in Iraq was just another example of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss."



Well that is not looking at the bigger picture Ben or the fact there were plenty of terrorist training camps inside Afghanistan which were being used to train terrorists to target the west, so yes the Taliban are very much a threat to the west and if allowed to establish power again, this will happen again, with a an ever increasing threat to the west, where again they see the west as the enemy. Iraq is different and yes it was wrong to go to war there, but Afghanistan was justified

But then you get into practicalities, which is what I was gearing at before -- how is the U.S. supposed to step in and right the situation in Afghanistan? Nobody really can, besides the people of Afghanistan themselves (which some are trying to do). Better to let small groups of special forces fight the worst threats from regions like that than commit to a full-scale war you can't hope to win because people either hate you or are too scared to say otherwise. Treat it more like police work than a war.

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:43 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:



Look at the evidence Irn, conventional means have failed to defeat for example the Taliban, who again have launched an offensive and are gaining ground, the reality of which is we did not take the fight to the enemy as already stated. War is a difficult concept and if it means taking more difficult decisions then that is what you need to do to win. The reality is the extremists play on the weakness of being confined to the Geneva convention, of which they do not abide by, this point being valid, thus why should we apply any such compassion to a group of people that rape and murder others?
In war the reality is people die in combat, so why are people so squeamish to the Idea of assassinating our enemies, whether they be troops or those that fund them? The reality is this would be taking the fight to them and would mean less innocent civilians dying and would also show the west and strong, with a view to taking no shit from its enemies, again you have to be tough if you want to win, because if we go by the last 10 years, it has failed using conventional means

But the US military were released from complying with the Geneva Convention and there is plenty evidence around to show that in many occasions that it wasn't complied with. Stuff showing that has been used as propaganda to recruit new terrorists and over the past 10 years or so and things have got a whole lot worse with satellite groups claiming affiliation to groups like al-Qaeda springing up all over the place. The USA is now seen oven more as a big back Satan than it ever was.


Not to the extent I am talking about where by and large they did apply to the Geneva convention and as seen conventional methods have not worked. Sorry but you are wrong on recruiting as it is women and children deaths that gain the best propaganda, which as seen is not what I am talking about. The US before these conflicts were seen this way all for one reason Israel, where again because the arabs have never accepted Israel they have used terrorism to attack the west, so even without invasions this would have still grown, showing how short sighted people are on the islamic terrorist threat, which is easily proven by the fact other groups like Boko Harem have formed not through any invasion

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:45 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Didge wrote:



Well that is not looking at the bigger picture Ben or the fact there were plenty of terrorist training camps inside Afghanistan which were being used to train terrorists to target the west, so yes the Taliban are very much a threat to the west and if allowed to establish power again, this will happen again, with a an ever increasing threat to the west, where again they see the west as the enemy. Iraq is different and yes it was wrong to go to war there, but Afghanistan was justified

But then you get into practicalities, which is what I was gearing at before -- how is the U.S. supposed to step in and right the situation in Afghanistan? Nobody really can, besides the people of Afghanistan themselves (which some are trying to do). Better to let small groups of special forces fight the worst threats from regions like that than commit to a full-scale war you can't hope to win because people either hate you or are too scared to say otherwise. Treat it more like police work than a war.



If you read my answers Ben, it has always been about using special forces to assassinate these militants and their supporters, which you have to fight such groups with terror also, to make them live in fear, where they do not know when or who is going to be hit next

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:50 am

Just thought I should add, history has shown that conventional forces deployed against ideologically motivated guerrillas don't work, from Vietnam to the Soviet war against Afghanistan (and many others, including freaking Israel under Roman rule). If IS-cum-allies ever get fighter jets, bombers, battleships and aircraft carriers, we can send in regular military to fight them and it won't matter what the rules are. Until that point, sending a battleship in to fight IS is like trying to hit a mosquito with a rocket launcher.

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Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:50 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:



Look at the evidence Irn, conventional means have failed to defeat for example the Taliban, who again have launched an offensive and are gaining ground, the reality of which is we did not take the fight to the enemy as already stated. War is a difficult concept and if it means taking more difficult decisions then that is what you need to do to win. The reality is the extremists play on the weakness of being confined to the Geneva convention, of which they do not abide by, this point being valid, thus why should we apply any such compassion to a group of people that rape and murder others?
In war the reality is people die in combat, so why are people so squeamish to the Idea of assassinating our enemies, whether they be troops or those that fund them? The reality is this would be taking the fight to them and would mean less innocent civilians dying and would also show the west and strong, with a view to taking no shit from its enemies, again you have to be tough if you want to win, because if we go by the last 10 years, it has failed using conventional means

But the US military were released from complying with the Geneva Convention and there is plenty evidence around to show that in many occasions that it wasn't complied with. Stuff showing that has been used as propaganda to recruit new terrorists and over the past 10 years or so and things have got a whole lot worse with satellite groups claiming affiliation to groups like al-Qaeda springing up all over the place. The USA is now seen oven more as a big back Satan than it ever was.


Not to the extent I am talking about where by and large they did apply to the Geneva convention and as seen conventional methods have not worked. Sorry but you are wrong on recruiting as it is women and children deaths that gain the best propaganda, which as seen is not what I am talking about. The US before these conflicts were seen this way all for one reason Israel, where again because the arabs have never accepted Israel they have used terrorism to attack the west, so even without invasions this would have still grown, showing how short sighted people are on the islamic terrorist threat, which is easily proven by the fact other groups like Boko Harem have formed not through any invasion

Not so sure it was on such a small scale as you think it is. But in any event even on a small scale these violations have been used to recruit even more terrorists. So if non compliance was widespread to the extent that you want it to be then it's going to be even worse as they would have even more material evidence to use - surely?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:51 am

Didge wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Didge wrote:



Well that is not looking at the bigger picture Ben or the fact there were plenty of terrorist training camps inside Afghanistan which were being used to train terrorists to target the west, so yes the Taliban are very much a threat to the west and if allowed to establish power again, this will happen again, with a an ever increasing threat to the west, where again they see the west as the enemy. Iraq is different and yes it was wrong to go to war there, but Afghanistan was justified

But then you get into practicalities, which is what I was gearing at before -- how is the U.S. supposed to step in and right the situation in Afghanistan? Nobody really can, besides the people of Afghanistan themselves (which some are trying to do). Better to let small groups of special forces fight the worst threats from regions like that than commit to a full-scale war you can't hope to win because people either hate you or are too scared to say otherwise. Treat it more like police work than a war.



If you read my answers Ben, it has always been about using special forces to assassinate these militants and their supporters, which you have to fight such groups with terror also, to make them live in fear, where they do not know when or who is going to be hit next

Well, we're at least agreed there. I still don't think you call yourself the good guy while using the same tactics as the bad guy. That's hypocritical and undercuts most of the reasoning behind opposing groups like IS in the first place. In my opinion.

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Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:54 am

Didge wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Didge wrote:



Well that is not looking at the bigger picture Ben or the fact there were plenty of terrorist training camps inside Afghanistan which were being used to train terrorists to target the west, so yes the Taliban are very much a threat to the west and if allowed to establish power again, this will happen again, with a an ever increasing threat to the west, where again they see the west as the enemy. Iraq is different and yes it was wrong to go to war there, but Afghanistan was justified

But then you get into practicalities, which is what I was gearing at before -- how is the U.S. supposed to step in and right the situation in Afghanistan? Nobody really can, besides the people of Afghanistan themselves (which some are trying to do). Better to let small groups of special forces fight the worst threats from regions like that than commit to a full-scale war you can't hope to win because people either hate you or are too scared to say otherwise. Treat it more like police work than a war.



If you read my answers Ben, it has always been about using special forces to assassinate these militants and their supporters, which you have to fight such groups with terror also, to make them live in fear, where they do not know when or who is going to be hit next

The US used special forces to hunt down Bin Laden using the very best intelligence that they had and how long did it take to bump him off?

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:54 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:


Not to the extent I am talking about where by and large they did apply to the Geneva convention and as seen conventional methods have not worked. Sorry but you are wrong on recruiting as it is women and children deaths that gain the best propaganda, which as seen is not what I am talking about. The US before these conflicts were seen this way all for one reason Israel, where again because the arabs have never accepted Israel they have used terrorism to attack the west, so even without invasions this would have still grown, showing how short sighted people are on the islamic terrorist threat, which is easily proven by the fact other groups like Boko Harem have formed not through any invasion

Not so sure it was on such a small scale as you think it is. But in any event even on a small scale these violations have been used to recruit even more terrorists. So if non compliance was widespread to the extent that you want it to be then it's going to be even worse as they would have even more material evidence to use - surely?



All irrelevant Irn, the fact is we have pussy footed around for too long with these extremists and it is time to take the battle to them, and people using compassion, towards groups of people that deserve none is both short sighted and naive, they need to be eradicated and if you take out those that fund them as well, they are then losing the ability to fund their means to fight. Things will always get worse before they get better, but as seen by instilling fear, with assassinations, they first of all know the west means business and second it will mean they have to try and run and hide. People have to stop being naive here, this is war and has been going on for years and they will not stop until we crush them and their ability and means to fight with

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:56 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:



If you read my answers Ben, it has always been about using special forces to assassinate these militants and their supporters, which you have to fight such groups with terror also, to make them live in fear, where they do not know when or who is going to be hit next

The US used special forces to hunt down Bin Laden using the very best intelligence that they had and how long did it take to bump him off?


He was in hiding, where there is a lot of hate preachers and funders who are not in hiding, plus the fact we can send as we have already forces into both Syria and Iraq to assassinate their forces, people need to stop being weak minded here as it plays into the enemies hand

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:57 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Didge wrote:



Well that is not looking at the bigger picture Ben or the fact there were plenty of terrorist training camps inside Afghanistan which were being used to train terrorists to target the west, so yes the Taliban are very much a threat to the west and if allowed to establish power again, this will happen again, with a an ever increasing threat to the west, where again they see the west as the enemy. Iraq is different and yes it was wrong to go to war there, but Afghanistan was justified

But then you get into practicalities, which is what I was gearing at before -- how is the U.S. supposed to step in and right the situation in Afghanistan? Nobody really can, besides the people of Afghanistan themselves (which some are trying to do). Better to let small groups of special forces fight the worst threats from regions like that than commit to a full-scale war you can't hope to win because people either hate you or are too scared to say otherwise. Treat it more like police work than a war.



If you read my answers Ben, it has always been about using special forces to assassinate these militants and their supporters, which you have to fight such groups with terror also, to make them live in fear, where they do not know when or who is going to be hit next

The US used special forces to hunt down Bin Laden using the very best intelligence that they had and how long did it take to bump him off?

But there's the kicker -- most of the really good intel that led to killing him came after the U.S. gave up torturing terrorist suspects!

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Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:01 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:


Not to the extent I am talking about where by and large they did apply to the Geneva convention and as seen conventional methods have not worked. Sorry but you are wrong on recruiting as it is women and children deaths that gain the best propaganda, which as seen is not what I am talking about. The US before these conflicts were seen this way all for one reason Israel, where again because the arabs have never accepted Israel they have used terrorism to attack the west, so even without invasions this would have still grown, showing how short sighted people are on the islamic terrorist threat, which is easily proven by the fact other groups like Boko Harem have formed not through any invasion

Not so sure it was on such a small scale as you think it is. But in any event even on a small scale these violations have been used to recruit even more terrorists. So if non compliance was widespread to the extent that you want it to be then it's going to be even worse as they would have even more material evidence to use - surely?



All irrelevant Irn, the fact is we have pussy footed around for too long with these extremists and it is time to take the battle to them, and people using compassion, towards groups of people that deserve none is both short sighted and naive, they need to be eradicated and if you take out those that fund them as well, they are then losing the ability to fund their means to fight. Things will always get worse before they get better, but as seen by instilling fear, with assassinations, they first of all know the west means business and second it will mean they have to try and run and hide. People have to stop being naive here, this is war and has been going on for years and they will not stop until we crush them and their ability and means to fight with

How on earth can handing the terrorists even more propaganda showing US troops failing to comply with the Geneva Convention by indulging in acts similar to what we have already seen be irrelevant? It's as good as any poster campaign as any to get even more to rally to their ridiculous cause.

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:04 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:



All irrelevant Irn, the fact is we have pussy footed around for too long with these extremists and it is time to take the battle to them, and people using compassion, towards groups of people that deserve none is both short sighted and naive, they need to be eradicated and if you take out those that fund them as well, they are then losing the ability to fund their means to fight. Things will always get worse before they get better, but as seen by instilling fear, with assassinations, they first of all know the west means business and second it will mean they have to try and run and hide. People have to stop being naive here, this is war and has been going on for years and they will not stop until we crush them and their ability and means to fight with

How on earth can handing the terrorists even more propaganda showing US troops failing to comply with the Geneva Convention by indulging in acts similar to what we have already seen be irrelevant? It's as good as any poster campaign as any to get even more to rally to their ridiculous cause.


Easy, its called defeating them and taking out those who spout the propaganda means they have less means to do so also, the point you are missing, stop being a wet fish, your approach has failed and has continued to fail, because you need to toughen up to hard decisions, one of which is to kill those around these groups, who have lost the ability of being classed with any compassion as they show none to the west.
The fact is, even where we have helped in Libya has failed and not stopped any propaganda, so that point is utterly moot, we need to execute murderers and any that promote that crap and fund them, stop being naive

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Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:11 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:



All irrelevant Irn, the fact is we have pussy footed around for too long with these extremists and it is time to take the battle to them, and people using compassion, towards groups of people that deserve none is both short sighted and naive, they need to be eradicated and if you take out those that fund them as well, they are then losing the ability to fund their means to fight. Things will always get worse before they get better, but as seen by instilling fear, with assassinations, they first of all know the west means business and second it will mean they have to try and run and hide. People have to stop being naive here, this is war and has been going on for years and they will not stop until we crush them and their ability and means to fight with

How on earth can handing the terrorists even more propaganda showing US troops failing to comply with the Geneva Convention by indulging in acts similar to what we have already seen be irrelevant? It's as good as any poster campaign as any to get even more to rally to their ridiculous cause.


Easy, its called defeating them and taking out those who spout the propaganda means they have less means to do so also, the point you are missing, stop being a wet fish, your approach has failed and has continued to fail, because you need to toughen up to hard decisions, one of which is to kill those around these groups, who have lost the ability of being classed with any compassion as they show none to the west.
The fact is, even where we have helped in Libya has failed and not stopped any propaganda, so that point is utterly moot, we need to execute murderers and any that promote that crap and fund them, stop being naive

I'm not being a 'wet fish' as you call it and just being realistic in trying to explain that propaganda showing the military committing acts similar to what we have already seen is a tool that they use with great effectiveness and is going to make things even worse.

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:16 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:


Easy, its called defeating them and taking out those who spout the propaganda means they have less means to do so also, the point you are missing, stop being a wet fish, your approach has failed and has continued to fail, because you need to toughen up to hard decisions, one of which is to kill those around these groups, who have lost the ability of being classed with any compassion as they show none to the west.
The fact is, even where we have helped in Libya has failed and not stopped any propaganda, so that point is utterly moot, we need to execute murderers and any that promote that crap and fund them, stop being naive

I'm not being a 'wet fish' as you call it and just being realistic in trying to explain that propaganda showing the military committing acts similar to what we have already seen is a tool that they use with great effectiveness and is going to make things even worse.


Dear me the propaganda used by the extremists is of claims to raping and killing children, most people do not bat an eyelid to extremists dying and they do not make use of extremists dying in their propaganda, because such a tactic would gain little sympathy, showing you are not understanding what they are using as propaganda, where my means is to take out extremists, not women and children. In fact there was hardly a case of women and children being raped or murdered, but it did not stop them using this tactic. The reality is we need to take on also their ability to use propaganda, to deny them this use, which we need to target also. Again wars are not won, by fighting with one hand tied behind your back and these groups are growing and being well funded by members from Arab states that hold a radical religious view, of which they need to be targeted

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Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:22 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:


Easy, its called defeating them and taking out those who spout the propaganda means they have less means to do so also, the point you are missing, stop being a wet fish, your approach has failed and has continued to fail, because you need to toughen up to hard decisions, one of which is to kill those around these groups, who have lost the ability of being classed with any compassion as they show none to the west.
The fact is, even where we have helped in Libya has failed and not stopped any propaganda, so that point is utterly moot, we need to execute murderers and any that promote that crap and fund them, stop being naive

I'm not being a 'wet fish' as you call it and just being realistic in trying to explain that propaganda showing the military committing acts similar to what we have already seen is a tool that they use with great effectiveness and is going to make things even worse.


Dear me the propaganda used by the extremists is of claims to raping and killing children, most people do not bat an eyelid to extremists dying and they do not make use of extremists dying in their propaganda, because such a tactic would gain little sympathy, showing you are not understanding what they are using as propaganda, where my means is to take out extremists, not women and children. In fact there was hardly a case of women and children being raped or murdered, but it did not stop them using this tactic. The reality is we need to take on also their ability to use propaganda, to deny them this use, which we need to target also. Again wars are not one, by fighting with one hand tied behind your back and these groups are growing and being well funded by members from Arab states that hold a radical religious view



Read this.

Spc. Patrick Resta, 29, a National Guardsman from Philadelphia, served in Jalula, where there was a small prison camp at his base. He was with the 252nd Armor, First Infantry Division, for nine months beginning in March 2004. He recalled his supervisor telling his platoon point-blank, "The Geneva Conventions don't exist at all in Iraq, and that's in writing if you want to see it."


These are confessions from people who actually fought against terrorists and there are a lot more here.

http://www.alternet.org/story/56761/confessions_from_u.s._soldiers_in_iraq_on_the_brutal_treatment_of_civilians

Yep, that really helped a lot in defeating terrorists didn't it?


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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:25 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:


Dear me the propaganda used by the extremists is of claims to raping and killing children, most people do not bat an eyelid to extremists dying and they do not make use of extremists dying in their propaganda, because such a tactic would gain little sympathy, showing you are not understanding what they are using as propaganda, where my means is to take out extremists, not women and children. In fact there was hardly a case of women and children being raped or murdered, but it did not stop them using this tactic. The reality is we need to take on also their ability to use propaganda, to deny them this use, which we need to target also. Again wars are not one, by fighting with one hand tied behind your back and these groups are growing and being well funded by members from Arab states that hold a radical religious view



Read this.

Spc. Patrick Resta, 29, a National Guardsman from Philadelphia, served in Jalula, where there was a small prison camp at his base. He was with the 252nd Armor, First Infantry Division, for nine months beginning in March 2004. He recalled his supervisor telling his platoon point-blank, "The Geneva Conventions don't exist at all in Iraq, and that's in writing if you want to see it."


These are confessions from people who actually fought against terrorists and there are a lot more here.

http://www.alternet.org/story/56761/confessions_from_u.s._soldiers_in_iraq_on_the_brutal_treatment_of_civilians

Yep, that really helped a lot in defeating terrorists didn't it?



Sorry but biased articles are not something I take any head to, where the reality is some misfits troops does not reflect the fact the vast majority of troops did behave and apply the Geneva convention, where again you see it is around civilians, where most people will not give two monkey's about terrorists dying.
You are avoiding my points

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Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:56 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:


Dear me the propaganda used by the extremists is of claims to raping and killing children, most people do not bat an eyelid to extremists dying and they do not make use of extremists dying in their propaganda, because such a tactic would gain little sympathy, showing you are not understanding what they are using as propaganda, where my means is to take out extremists, not women and children. In fact there was hardly a case of women and children being raped or murdered, but it did not stop them using this tactic. The reality is we need to take on also their ability to use propaganda, to deny them this use, which we need to target also. Again wars are not one, by fighting with one hand tied behind your back and these groups are growing and being well funded by members from Arab states that hold a radical religious view



Read this.

Spc. Patrick Resta, 29, a National Guardsman from Philadelphia, served in Jalula, where there was a small prison camp at his base. He was with the 252nd Armor, First Infantry Division, for nine months beginning in March 2004. He recalled his supervisor telling his platoon point-blank, "The Geneva Conventions don't exist at all in Iraq, and that's in writing if you want to see it."


These are confessions from people who actually fought against terrorists and there are a lot more here.

http://www.alternet.org/story/56761/confessions_from_u.s._soldiers_in_iraq_on_the_brutal_treatment_of_civilians

Yep, that really helped a lot in defeating terrorists didn't it?



Sorry but biased articles are not something I take any head to, where the reality is some misfits troops does not reflect the fact the vast majority of troops did behave and apply the Geneva convention, where again you see it is around civilians, where most people will not give two monkey's about terrorists dying.
You are avoiding my points

You don't like the source and the words of men who actually fought in Iraq are dismissed out of hand.

Well that will be that then.



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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:59 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:


Sorry but biased articles are not something I take any head to, where the reality is some misfits troops does not reflect the fact the vast majority of troops did behave and apply the Geneva convention, where again you see it is around civilians, where most people will not give two monkey's about terrorists dying.
You are avoiding my points

You don't like the source and the words of men who actually fought in Iraq are dismissed out of hand.

Well that will be that then.




Basically when they paint a very biased picture, when again the vast majority of servicemen who served did not break rules, so it shows how malicious you are to paint such a poor picture where again your view backs mine on this being against innocent civilians, of which is what is used for propaganda, not dead terrorists or extremists

So thanks

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:36 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:Does anyone believe that releasing the military from the constraints of complying with the Geneva Convention would actually defeat terrorism? Or would evidence showing that they don't comply just be used by the terrorists as propaganda to recruit even more to commit their heinous acts?

So far that's exactly what's happened. Every jihadi who joined up after the mid-2000s or so was shown mainstream media coverage of what was going on at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay.

I think a voice in the wilderness nobody's paid enough attention to (especially Obama) has been none other than Vice President Joe Biden, who called for special forces in smaller numbers doing precision targeting of actual terrorists (instead of what our regular forces often destroy, like wedding parties). Not only would it be a smaller investment in stopping terrorism, it would be a smarter investment, as special forces are light years beyond the average Army grunt and are the type that can turn an almost totally botched raid on bin Laden's compound into victory.

Special forces are widely heralded for their ability to hit the real bad guys and not civilians, and to know the difference -- they just make it their job to get it right; they're professional in ways a lot of the military doesn't seem to understand. I think if you want to fight terrorists, you don't abandon the rules of the civilized world, you just give the job to the very best you have, just like the terrorists only trust their best with planning attacks like what we've seen and let the dummies be suicide bombers.

+100 to what Biden said Smile

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Post by Cass on Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:03 pm

[quote="Didge"]
Irn Bru wrote:

All irrelevant Irn, the fact is we have pussy footed around for too long with these extremists and it is time to take the battle to them, and people using compassion, towards groups of people that deserve none is both short sighted and naive, they need to be eradicated and if you take out those that fund them as well, they are then losing the ability to fund their means to fight. Things will always get worse before they get better, but as seen by instilling fear, with assassinations, they first of all know the west means business and second it will mean they have to try and run and hide. People have to stop being naive here, this is war and has been going on for years and they will not stop until we crush them and their ability and means to fight with

take the battle to them? pre-emptive strikes in other words? just what Hitler and the Japanese did in WW2. That Didge would be the start of a very slippery slope into world chaos.

as it stands there is no formal declaration of war - just this vague notion that we are fighting a war on terror

I again state you just cannot throw off the Geneva Convention when you get frustrated. you either stand by it fully or you disregard it and pay the cost.

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Post by Cass on Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:10 pm

going back to a post of Ben's about Biden.....I agree in theory it sounds good but nothing concrete will happen unless the Arab countries fully participate and also stop funding them and stop allowing them to set up camps etc...but that ain't going to happen anytime soon.

realistically what will really happen? the whole region has been in uproar for thousands of years and my guess is that it will continue till the end of time.

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:27 pm

Again the wet letteuce appeaser lefties are being disingenious....

of course western troops should not be utterly released from obligations under the geneva convention and then deliberate stupidity of the left doesnt want to see this obvious fact

the western troops should be released form the geneva convention ONLY in as much as it applies to enemy combatants, and specifically ...NO prisoners ...remember these Isis types are terrorists and mass murderers...they do not deserve trial, since there is nothing a trial will achieve...membership of such an organisation, fighting under its flag etc is in toto proof of guilt.....and as such should receive the ultimate penalty sumararily.

in particular they should issue the troops with expanding ammunition


Last edited by victorisnotamused on Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Cass on Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:32 pm

victor please stop with the name calling thanks.

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:47 pm

more over I havnt seen ONE sensible suggestion from the limp salad brigade white flag battalion as to what they suggest we do about Isis (practically, not appeaser theory) because...fairly soon they WILL pose a threat to the west...either directly or via terrorists on the streets here....how many are already here in place waiting? how many more will sneak back in???
dont forget our noble security services admit to knowing only a fraction of those who have gone off to the party in the desert...a fraction....so a whole shed load will be comming back here trained and with even more radicalised ideas.....

All I can say is god help you city types


Last edited by victorisnotamused on Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:48 pm

Cass wrote:victor please stop with the name calling thanks.

ok I'll edit them to merely tell it how it is.....

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:59 pm

Cass wrote:
Didge wrote:

take the battle to them? pre-emptive strikes in other words? just what Hitler and the Japanese did in WW2. That Didge would be the start of a very slippery slope into world chaos.

as it stands there is no formal declaration of war - just this vague notion that we are fighting a war on terror

I again state you just cannot throw off the Geneva Convention when you get frustrated. you either stand by it fully or you disregard it and pay the cost.



Behave Cass that is nonsense, these extremists are at war with us, as we are at war with them and have been for over a decade, and we the west have made plenty of pre-emptive strikes over history, its called being strategically ahead of your enemy. Seriously your view is one of naivety, where you are basically hoping a set of extremists groups whos goal is world domination, do not want to attack us? Whos objective to obtain this goal is one of terror where as seen no matter if IS or Boko Haram, they murder, rape and commit genocide?
It is nothing to do with frustration, the object of war is to win, where an enemy which was never considered when forming the Geneva convention, which plays to no rules but its own, lose the standing of any Geneva convention. We are talking about talking on pure evil as we once did in WW2 with both the Japanese and Hitler and we never quivered from making difficult decisions then to take them on, where I will give you a prime example as I did to Zack. The Assassination of Reinhard Heydrich, which even though the risks were known there would be reprisals, of which there was the complete obliteration of a village after he died, the decision to take him out was strategically the correct one, being as he had gotten the whole of the Czechs to basically near collaborate, with policies that ensured workers increased output. His death was instrumental in this cooperation collapsing. You see I can give you countless examples of where difficult and what you would class today are not following the Geneva convention, sorry, but you do not win wars by playing fully by the rules, nobody ever has.
We are up against pure evil here, who do not play by any rules.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:21 pm

Cass wrote:going back to a post of Ben's about Biden.....I agree in theory it sounds good but nothing concrete will happen unless the Arab countries fully participate and also stop funding them and stop allowing them to set up camps etc...but that ain't going to happen anytime soon.

realistically what will really happen? the whole region has been in uproar for thousands of years and my guess is that it will continue till the end of time.

region was fine until WW1 and the fall of the Ottoman empire Suspect Suspect Suspect

And I'm guessing they will take seriously requests to stop funding terrorist when the USA and others also take seriously the idea of not funding terrorists?? Suspect Suspect Suspect

pot calling the kettle black really, the 2 biggest funding of terrorists comes from the USA and Russia has been for 50 years. No No

the Whole Middle east funds terrorist argument is really quite Bullshit, not saying they don't, but USA literally provides TAX BREAKS for it own companies that fund terrorists in the Middle East, South America and Africa. let alone the LONG LONG history of the CIA doing exactly that too, and no official effort has ever been made to Stop the CIA funding terrorists.

Despite what Didge thinks...
You cant expect the others to not commit the crimes, that you are only too willing to commit against them.

In fact half the problem is that the USA(and west) has been doing these despicable things in other nations, so there is A LOT of negativity in those nations towards the USA.

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Post by Guest on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:32 pm

Sorry Veya that is a load of gobbledygook and is shortsighted to the problem of Islamic terrorism and you are basically now trying to defend IS committing acts of genocide based off what crimes by the US exactly, when these acts committed by IS are against different religious groups? That is what you are basically saying.

To say the region was fine is also not following history where it has been problematic for centuries, is also short sighted and to claim it is the US funding these terrorists is one load of horseshit. Seriously you are trying to defend Islamic terrorism based off what by America exactly again?

There is no comparrison

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Post by veya_victaous on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:53 am

@Didge
I'm not defending it
I'm just saying To suggest that the ISSUE is Middle eastern Funding of terrorism is Silly as the USA and Russia put much more money into terrorist funding.
We cant EXPECT PEOPLE TO STOP IF WE ARE DOING THE SAME THING, I know you disagree and believe Might is Right Rolling Eyes
but hey your and English men with a history of terrorism and Oppression than eclipses the middle east. the middle east has hardly ever got further than north Africa in it oppression. England and an Empire of theft and oppression, Nationalised terrorism of native peoples on which the sun never set

I'm Not saying the USA funds ISIS but they Definitely fund other terrorists (IDF for example)
let alone in South America, UNC and FARQ both funded by Chiquita Bananas from the USA
http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/08/02/3466915/chiquita-colombia-ruling/
IF you want an example of Worse by the USA Check out that link US Company is allowed by US law to fund terrorists to massacre a native tribe in order to steal their land and clear the forests for Banana plantations...


The Region was doing better in terms of peace than Europe from 15th-18th centuries

AND NONE of my Post even refers to ISIS.. it is referring to the blame some are trying to place on Iran, UAE and Saudi Arabia WHICH may not be good but are no more responsible than we are.
the Fact is WE recruit for ISIS or other extremists by not fastidiously holding the higher moral ground.

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Post by Guest on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:58 am

Dear me, they never directly funded terrorism, what they did was fund  puppet dictatorships to their cost which is very different and to claim they were doing better in the 15th to 18th centuries is again utterly wrong considering they were actively the aggressor in fighting other nations as well as within themselves. I have never viewed the Imperialism of the west in the 19th century as ever right so you are as per usual way off the mark and have always viewed this as wrong where it will still takes decades to correct the wrongs of this done alone in Africa.

You are very much misguided about Iran and Saudi, both theocracies, which have been behind much terrorism and its funding and nobody with any common sense would views these nations as anything short of barbaric in their laws, where they have suppressed any opposition. Their views is one based upon religious ideology, where only now Iran sees the threat of IS have they started to fear the problem they may cause, where they seek to look to the west themselves, but their laws are still barbaric.

Anyway have to go until tomorrow

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Post by veya_victaous on Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:35 am

Nope USA Directly funded FARQ AND UNC both Terrorist organisation
USA directly funded AL QUEDA against the Russians

I am NOT SAYING ANY ONE IS GOOD
I AM SAYING WE ARE JUST AS EVIL

STOP trying to justify our action and our gov't greed while giving condemnation to others for doing the same or less. We are just as bad, we do not have the high moral ground. If we had the High moral ground then we could show the truth and these organisations would struggle to recruit but WE CAN'T.. we can show their horrors but they can show ours and us trying to deny it just makes us look like Liars... And if we are Liar why should they believe us?
If we are to win then we need to win hearts and minds

remember currently... WE are the Empire
Why must we be...... - Page 5 EmpireOnBackwaterPlanet-EGTW
Why must we be...... - Page 5 03iraq_n081103

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Post by Guest on Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:54 am

Yet more bollocks, if you do not like the actions of the US, that is your issue not mine and have never stated they do not make mistakes, which is you using a poor deflection tactic yet again from dealing with the problem here.
Your knowledge of history is appalling and you ability to understand a problem in how tactically it should be dealt with.
The reality is nobody denies the US makes mistakes, that does not excuse not dealing with IS, who are a massive threat, who murders innocent women and children in cold blood, because they are of different religious groups or ethnic, thus again your arguments are nothing but mere deflection, when IS goal is world domination based under a barbaric ideology. America may have its faults but it has freedom for its citizens, maybe you need to go and live under IS and then tell me how wonderful they are and then you might stop with all the bull and deflection you keep coming out with

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