Richard Dawkins Sparks Twitter Debate Over Aborting Down Syndrome Fetuses

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Post by Guest on Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Richard Dawkins’ brand of strident rationalism has won him many fans, but it can also leads to the occasional tone deaf comment on Twitter, with the academic’s latest offering a staunch defense of abortion if a fetus is diagnosed with Down Syndrome.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/20/richard-dawkins-sparks-twitter-debate-over-aborting-down-syndrome-fetuses_n_5694961.html?utm_hp_ref=uk



I wonder if he would say the same for those with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis?

Or no limbs?

I starting to think he loves controversy and attention.

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Post by Guest on Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:11 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

Well put, I'd just add that the true definition of morality is this:

If you see the need to provide and care for any living thing not capable of taking care of him or herself, you are moral (high five!).

Whether you're helping a prairie dog survive or a disabled human being, you're better off being the caring sort than the "fuck you if you can't keep up" sort.

Them are mah val-yews and bah Gawd Ah'm stickin' to 'em Smile Smile Smile Smile

Well Ben A hypothetical for you....

3 starving people/animals and you have enough food to keep 2 alive on basis do you choose which to help?
OR
3 Ebola Patients and 2 vials of Miracle cure?

finite resources means that while we might like to, we cannot actually save them all.  :::grouch:: 

Let them decide between them, because in most cases when you allow people to decide they do the right thing and allow others to live over themselves, trust me on this, where there is many cases of people sacrificing themselves. Yes there will be selfish ones, but there is always one willing to allow others to live, proving my point on the compassion of humanity

Night

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:16 am

Didge wrote:Anyway, must get some sleep, so catch you all later and this has become quite interesting which I am sure Victor and Stardesk would liken to add their views on this.

Night Ben and Veya

Night Didge!

I'll say, in my limited ability to speak/type at the mo' (damn that alcohol) that in our present state, we really do have the resources to provide for everyone born.

However, it might mean that the uber-rich have to live like me (horror!).

But yeah, if it weren't for the resource hoarders, we could provide for all of humanity. We might all have to take a hit in terms of living space, daily calorie count or tech available to us, but we're not so far gone that we couldn't take care of everyone alive today if we wanted to.

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:48 am

Didge wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

Well put, I'd just add that the true definition of morality is this:

If you see the need to provide and care for any living thing not capable of taking care of him or herself, you are moral (high five!).

Whether you're helping a prairie dog survive or a disabled human being, you're better off being the caring sort than the "fuck you if you can't keep up" sort.

Them are mah val-yews and bah Gawd Ah'm stickin' to 'em Smile Smile Smile Smile

Well Ben A hypothetical for you....

3 starving people/animals and you have enough food to keep 2 alive on basis do you choose which to help?
OR
3 Ebola Patients and 2 vials of Miracle cure?

finite resources means that while we might like to, we cannot actually save them all.  :::grouch:: 

Let them decide between them, because in most cases when you allow people to decide they do the right thing and allow others to live over themselves, trust me on this, where there is many cases of people sacrificing themselves. Yes there will be selfish ones, but there is always one willing to allow others to live, proving my point on the compassion of humanity

Night
But then Did you make the right choice? since the one most giving is now dead?  confused 

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:02 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Didge wrote:Anyway, must get some sleep, so catch you all later and this has become quite interesting which I am sure Victor and Stardesk would liken to add their views on this.

Night Ben and Veya

Night Didge!

I'll say, in my limited ability to speak/type at the mo' (damn that alcohol) that in our present state, we really do have the resources to provide for everyone born.

However, it might mean that the uber-rich have to live like me (horror!).

But yeah, if it weren't for the resource hoarders, we could provide for all of humanity. We might all have to take a hit in terms of living space, daily calorie count or tech available to us, but we're not so far gone that we couldn't take care of everyone alive today if we wanted to.

We could but as the expense of every other life form on the planet?
Morality is infinite and there are endless sides to its form..

I think the ying yang actually the best representation
When something is looked at in its whole it is equal parts good and bad, Black or white. Yet in either part, good or bad, there is an element of the other. It is all perspective what is good for one is often bad for another.. one being cannot gain with out another being losing. to give the starving child a fish for dinner is great for the child but terrible for the fish  :\\:[: 

Now with my belief that plants are equal to us in spiritual worth.
All things, Good or Bad, are ultimately equal depending on the perspective taken :::grouch:: 
kindness to rabbit is cruelty to the carrot.  Cool  .....And Vice versa so don't say I'm advocating Rabbit Cruelty  Rolling Eyes 

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:35 am

No, you're a damn bunny-boiler, here's the proof Veya Smile

I see what you're saying, but to me, corn must always serve me and my family. The corn can have us when we die, but we're going to eat it until that point ...

Remember, the starving child will eventually feed the worms that feed the fish!

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:44 am

eddie wrote:
Cass wrote:whoop de doo ......I am tired of "sound bites " to stir up controvery over a hard topic.....it can be discussed without a devil's advocate point of view.

Totally,agree Cass.
I am all,for free speech and debating emotive topics but he is very insensitive at times and taking the emotional route here people with Down's syndrome are some of the most loving and affectionate people you could ever wish to meet.

If I found out though, that I was having a DS baby, and it was early on in the pregnancy, would I keep it?
I'm not absolutely sure if I'm honest.


And that is really the point Dawkins was making. People should have that choice. And it shouldn't be seen as wrong for someone to make that choice.

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:01 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:No, you're a damn bunny-boiler, here's the proof Veya Smile

I see what you're saying, but to me, corn must always serve me and my family. The corn can have us when we die, but we're going to eat it until that point ...

Remember, the starving child will eventually feed the worms that feed the fish!

and IF you and your family were Corn or Fish?
You treat Humans as individuals but the not Fish and Corn? the Individual Fish the child eats will never eat the worms that fed on the child. So does the survival/life of the individual truly matter? since it didn't for the fish... why does it for the child?
the loss of one child will effect our species less than loss of Adult fish to MOST species of Fish on the planet (since We in our big brained wisdom have been smart enough to pollute their home and collapse much of the natural ecosystem)
Your opinion assumes you are always on top of the food chain, thus Your Whole Argument boils down to IF you are powerful it is right to do what ever you god dam like. which I know You don't agree with in other aspects.
No One wants to be a Hypocrite, So does "Might make Right?"  Suspect Suspect Suspect 

Oh and Why does any life form HAVE to serve another??? sounds like endorsement of Slavery to me tongue tongue tongue  or is it the corns natural place as designed by..... silent 

P.S.
The art of meditation is not to think of nothing but consider oneself nothing in order to view things free of perspectives. If you were to meditate on the feelings of the corn or the fish you might change your mind.  Razz 

Not that it matters, just accept that Humans are no less a beast than a shark, what we do in kindness can often Incredibly cruel to another other life form. We can justify it be whatever excuse we want but IF the world was fair and just, Why would A life count for so much more JUST because it belongs to a Bipedal hairless ape?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:06 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:No, you're a damn bunny-boiler, here's the proof Veya Smile

I see what you're saying, but to me, corn must always serve me and my family. The corn can have us when we die, but we're going to eat it until that point ...

Remember, the starving child will eventually feed the worms that feed the fish!

and IF you and your family were Corn or Fish?
You treat Humans as individuals but the not Fish and Corn? the Individual Fish the child eats will never eat the worms that fed on the child. So does the survival/life of the individual truly matter? since it didn't for the fish... why does it for the child?
the loss of one child will effect our species less than loss of Adult fish to MOST species of Fish on the planet (since We in our big brained wisdom have been smart enough to pollute their home and collapse much of the natural ecosystem)
Your opinion assumes you are always on top of the food chain, thus Your Whole Argument boils down to IF you are powerful it is right to do what ever you god dam like. which I know You don't agree with in other aspects.
No One wants to be a Hypocrite, So does "Might make Right?"  Suspect Suspect Suspect 

Oh and Why does any life form HAVE to serve another??? sounds like endorsement of Slavery to me tongue tongue tongue  or is it the corns natural place as designed by..... silent 

P.S.
The art of meditation is not to think of nothing but consider oneself nothing in order to view things free of perspectives. If you were to meditate on the feelings of the corn or the fish you might change your mind.  Razz 

Not that it matters, just accept that Humans are no less a beast than a shark, what we do in kindness can often Incredibly cruel to another other life form. We can justify it be whatever excuse we want but IF the world was fair and just, Why would A life count for so much more JUST because it belongs to a Bipedal hairless ape?

Remember:

"It's OK to eat fish, 'cause they don't have any feelings ... "

- Nirvana

I get what you're saying. But I'm pro- our race of naked apes; if I was corn I'd surely be saying death to humans and if you pop me, I'm-a pop you right back (or at least get stuck in your teeth).

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:25 am

@Ben
you think Kurt pulled the trigger with his toes  Suspect 

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@But I'm pro- our race of naked apes;
TM says the same thing about Anglos  Twisted Evil Twisted Evil 

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:26 am

veya_victaous wrote:@Ben
you think Kurt pulled the trigger with his toes  Suspect 

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@But I'm pro- our race of naked apes;
TM says the same thing about Anglos  Twisted Evil Twisted Evil 

Yeah, well. When they visit the moon I'll sit up Smile

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:52 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:



@But I'm pro- our race of naked apes;
TM says the same thing about Anglos  
Twisted Evil Twisted Evil 

Yeah, well. When they visit the moon I'll sit up Smile

You think UK need to try and reach the moon?  confused confused confused confused 
 tongue tongue tongue tongue tongue tongue 

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Post by Guest on Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:31 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:

Let them decide between them, because in most cases when you allow people to decide they do the right thing and allow others to live over themselves, trust me on this, where there is many cases of people sacrificing themselves. Yes there will be selfish ones, but there is always one willing to allow others to live, proving my point on the compassion of humanity

Night
But then Did you make the right choice? since the one most giving is now dead?  confused 

I have given them the choice to decide, my choice allows them to decide on whether they deem who should survive, and is the best way to solve the problem

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Post by Guest on Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:32 am

Eilzel wrote:
eddie wrote:

Totally,agree Cass.
I am all,for free speech and debating emotive topics but he is very insensitive at times and taking the emotional route here people with Down's syndrome are some of the most loving and affectionate people you could ever wish to meet.

If I found out though, that I was having a DS baby, and it was early on in the pregnancy, would I keep it?
I'm not absolutely sure if I'm honest.


And that is really the point Dawkins was making. People should have that choice. And it shouldn't be seen as wrong for someone to make that choice.

Sorry Eilzel but women rightly already have choice, you defend him too much because it was his other points on the right to exist that people are pissed off about.
So no the point he was making was being elitist

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:10 am

Didge wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:

Let them decide between them, because in most cases when you allow people to decide they do the right thing and allow others to live over themselves, trust me on this, where there is many cases of people sacrificing themselves. Yes there will be selfish ones, but there is always one willing to allow others to live, proving my point on the compassion of humanity

Night
But then Did you make the right choice? since the one most giving is now dead?  confused 

I have given them the choice to decide, my choice allows them to decide on whether they deem who should survive, and is the best way to solve  the problem

or escape the hard choice  Suspect It solves your problem by abstaining and making someone else make the hard choice  Rolling Eyes 

personally i think that it unfair, I wouldn't want the doctor to make me choose and to know that some died because they choose to let me have it. So as the Doctor I would just make the choice all things being equal I would leave it to the random hand of fate. (I do so all the time by assigning random happening to equal course of action, like If that bird lands there I will do whatever it is I was considering that is of no great importance or damned if you do damned if you don't circumstances)

OK smarty pants I will make it harder

Hospital situation say in a war zone like Palestine.  silent  or Earthquake natural disaster area.
you have 3 identical patents (all Unconscious, equal back stories and families, equal chance of survival IF the stay connected to the machines)
the power goes off and the back up generator can only support 2 of the life support systems...
what do you do?

PS we're Doctors  Wink Laughing 

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Post by nicko on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:13 am

Have a fcking break down?
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Post by FluffyBunny on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:16 am

Eilzel wrote:
eddie wrote:

Totally,agree Cass.
I am all,for free speech and debating emotive topics but he is very insensitive at times and taking the emotional route here people with Down's syndrome are some of the most loving and affectionate people you could ever wish to meet.

If I found out though, that I was having a DS baby, and it was early on in the pregnancy, would I keep it?
I'm not absolutely sure if I'm honest.

And it shouldn't be seen as wrong for someone to make that choice.

Yes it should. It's barbaric.

Are you saying that it's ok to abort DS babies??

I can understand if the child would literally have zero quality of life but this is not the case with DS children is it. I can't quite believe people are saying this in all honesty.

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Post by FluffyBunny on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:26 am

This to me is quite close to the concept of 'designer babies' where women want to be able to select the gender of their child,eye colour, hair colour etc

It is a very dangerous road to start down. Aborting children because they are not conventionally 'perfect'.

DS children can lead very fulfilling happy lives. None of us know,even those of us born as 'normal' people how long we will last,we could be hit by a bus tomorrow. Or God forbid have an accident that severely impacts on our quality of life.

Should we just be put down then like a lame dog??

I can't get to grips with this mentality at all, I do find it disturbing.

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:37 am

FluffyBunny wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
And it shouldn't be seen as wrong for someone to make that choice.

Yes it should. It's barbaric.

Are you saying that it's ok to abort DS babies??

I can understand if the child would literally have zero quality of life but this is not the case with DS children is it. I can't quite believe people are saying this in all honesty.

People abort for simple reasons such as not intending to get pregnant or feeling they cannot accept the responsibility of bringing up a child. If someone becomes pregnant with a DS baby and knows this, and feel they cannot cope with the added responsibility in bringing up a DS child then it should be the woman's right to abort that child. Why should they be forced to have a DS child they don't feel they can give proper care to?

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Post by nicko on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:39 am

It's the womans body why should anyone especially a man tell a woman what to do?
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Post by FluffyBunny on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:56 am

Eilzel wrote:
FluffyBunny wrote:

Yes it should. It's barbaric.

Are you saying that it's ok to abort DS babies??

I can understand if the child would literally have zero quality of life but this is not the case with DS children is it. I can't quite believe people are saying this in all honesty.

People abort for simple reasons such as not intending to get pregnant or feeling they cannot accept the responsibility of bringing up a child. If someone becomes pregnant with a DS baby and knows this, and feel they cannot cope with the added responsibility in bringing up a DS child then it should be the woman's right to abort that child. Why should they be forced to have a DS child they don't feel they can give proper care to?

But they don't have to.
The lady could give the baby up for adoption to a loving family where the child would be well looked after.

I am not suggesting a lady bring up a baby against her will,but the child does not have to be done away with just because it has DS.

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:14 pm

FluffyBunny wrote:This to me is quite close to the concept of 'designer babies' where women want to be able to select the gender of their child,eye colour, hair colour etc

It is a very dangerous road to start down. Aborting children because they are not conventionally 'perfect'.

DS children can lead very fulfilling happy lives. None of us know,even those of us born as 'normal' people how long we will last,we could be hit by a bus tomorrow. Or God forbid have an accident that severely impacts on our quality of life.

Should we just be put down then like a lame dog??
well we just put down the dog  Suspect  same logic, why do we do it to the dog? what ever reason you give well back at ya  Wink 
P.S. I generally don't believe we should be putting down dogs unless they are in untreatable pain put so I apply the same to humans  Cool  
But like the Dogs fate, reality is harsh, choices are sometimes bleak  Neutral 


I can't get to grips with this mentality at all, I do find it disturbing.

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Post by FluffyBunny on Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:25 pm

I think you are straying off the original point Veya.

I agree that we certainly should not put down animals unless they are in untreatable agony they cannot withstand and it is my view that that humans who face the same agonising pain should be able to take their own life, if they have no quality of life and feel they cannot go on.

But,as I repeat,this is not the case for DS children is it? They are not in agonising pain and can lead happy rewarding lives.

I don't quite understand the comparison or the point you are trying to make therefore.

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Post by nicko on Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:09 pm

Fluffy, you say "the child could be adopted" Lets be honest, there are very few who would adopt a D.S child.
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Post by Guest on Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:36 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:

I have given them the choice to decide, my choice allows them to decide on whether they deem who should survive, and is the best way to solve  the problem

or escape the hard choice  Suspect It solves your problem by abstaining and making someone else make the hard choice  Rolling Eyes 

personally i think that it unfair, I wouldn't want the doctor to make me choose and to know that some died because they choose to let me have it. So as the Doctor I would just make the choice all things being equal I would leave it to the random hand of fate. (I do so all the time by assigning random happening to equal course of action, like If that bird lands there I will do whatever it is I was considering that is of no great importance or damned if you do damned if you don't circumstances)
You may think it is unfair, but it is the best possible approach, because it places those facing the dilemma to choose between themselves, again people have been placed in this position before and people decide between themselves. By allowing them to decide they decide their own fate, as I should not have to decide the fate of people facing such a burden

OK smarty pants I will make it harder

Hospital situation say in a war zone like Palestine.  silent  or Earthquake natural disaster area.
you have 3 identical patents (all Unconscious, equal back stories and families, equal chance of survival IF the stay connected to the machines)
the power goes off and the back up generator can only support 2 of the life support systems...
what do you do?

PS we're Doctors  Wink Laughing 

Turn them all off and preserve the back up generator for more critical patients, I would then have nurses operate manual portable oxygen to help them breath and to administer fluids and drugs to help their blood circulation, thus still giving all of them a chance, though this chance has diminshed

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Post by Guest on Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:56 pm

Eilzel wrote:
FluffyBunny wrote:

Yes it should. It's barbaric.

Are you saying that it's ok to abort DS babies??

I can understand if the child would literally have zero quality of life but this is not the case with DS children is it. I can't quite believe people are saying this in all honesty.

People abort for simple reasons such as not intending to get pregnant or feeling they cannot accept the responsibility of bringing up a child. If someone becomes pregnant with a DS baby and knows this, and feel they cannot cope with the added responsibility in bringing up a DS child then it should be the woman's right to abort that child. Why should they be forced to have a DS child they don't feel they can give proper care to?


I think that is where people are not the sort of people who would make good parents, being as any good parent, would take on such a responsibility, those that choose to abort take the easy option, which means they want the issue option of having to do less, which does not bode well when you think about it.
What gets me is this line of being able to abort because the child might be different and with technology with genetics showing any deformities that a baby will have, so what next, any that have severe asthma?
Missing limbs?
Cystic Fibrosis?
Blind?
Deaf?

Where do you draw the line on imperfections Eilzel, where in the above all will be an added requirement of the parents to do far more to help and assist their children?
What next, if it is male or female?
If we are meddle with nature, are we then playing again what we call God?
Again I am all for choice, but this choice should be based on a necessity, not where a couple is trying to start a family and then are just wanting the perfect child, thus making a mockery of creating life, as we all take that chance when we decide to have a family.

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Post by FluffyBunny on Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:57 pm

Didge wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

People abort for simple reasons such as not intending to get pregnant or feeling they cannot accept the responsibility of bringing up a child. If someone becomes pregnant with a DS baby and knows this, and feel they cannot cope with the added responsibility in bringing up a DS child then it should be the woman's right to abort that child. Why should they be forced to have a DS child they don't feel they can give proper care to?


I think that is where people are not the sort of people who would make good parents, being as any good parent, would take on such a responsibility, those that choose to abort take the easy option, which means they want the issue option of having to do less, which does not bode well when you think about it.
What gets me is this line of being able to abort because the child might be different and with technology with genetics showing any deformities that a baby will have, so what next, any that have severe asthma?
Missing limbs?
Cystic Fibrosis?
Blind?
Deaf?

Where do you draw the line on imperfections Eilzel, where in the above all will be an added requirement of the parents to do far more to help and assist their children?
What next, if it is male or female?
If we are meddle with nature, are we then playing again what we call God?
Again I am all for choice, but this choice should be based on a necessity, not where a couple is trying to start a family and then are just wanting the perfect child, thus making a mockery of creating life, as we all take that chance when we decide to have a family.

Agree completely.
That's why I said its a dangerous mentality and road to go down because before you know it any child perceived to be 'imperfect' in some way will not be considered good enough.

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Post by FluffyBunny on Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:59 pm

nicko wrote:Fluffy, you say "the child could be adopted"  Lets be honest, there are very few who would adopt a D.S child.

Actually Nicko, i did not know that.

I would have thought that there was plenty of couples who have been unable to conceive themselves and would not disregard a child just because it was DS. Possibly I am being naive here.

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:15 pm

Didge, if someone has never even had a chikd they would have no idea if they will be a good parent or not. You cannot judge someone a bad parent though just because they would not choose to have a child who was DS.

Fluffy, abortion is never ideal, and there are already thousands if children waiting to be adopted. It would be irresponsible to bring a baby into the world, especially one that needs extra care, which then needs to be found and placed with adoptive parents who are both willing and able.

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Post by Guest on Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:42 pm

Eilzel wrote:Didge, if someone has never even had a chikd they would have no idea if they will be a good parent or not. You cannot judge someone a bad parent though just because they would not choose to have a child who was DS.

Fluffy, abortion is never ideal, and there are already thousands if children waiting to be adopted. It would be irresponsible to bring a baby into the world, especially one that needs extra care, which then needs to be found and placed with adoptive parents who are both willing and able.

You are avoiding all the points Eilzel, whether you think it is right or wrong for me to judge is very irrelevant, want is though is people trying for a family and then aborting if that child has imperfections or abnormalities, where again where do you draw the line, as if you open the door to this you open up a big can of worms, and then again people are aborting for the simple fact they refuse to take on added responsibility, as that is what it boils down to.I am not against abortion if it is a necessity, not though because a parent does not want to love a child who has imperfections. Most people who have children with abnormalities still love them as they would any other child, so what is stopping others from doing the same?
To me it has everything to do with people thinking they cannot cope  and thus they take the easy option, where it should not matter, who start a family and accept the fact, you have a child, which is all that matters, to love and raise them.
So again where do you draw the line Eilzel?
Missing limbs?
Cystic Fibrosis?
Blind?
Deaf?
Are you claiming people have a right to abort when trying for a family just because their child may have an imperfection?

Did Nick deserve to be aborted or does he look full of life to you?





How about Stephen Hawkins?

All I can say is thank goodness they were given the chance of life

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:49 pm

A mother may want to have a child she will see grow up and have a long life, this is less likely if the child is DS. I'm just saying if a mother should have that choice. I don't know why a mother may feel she cannot cope but it could happen- Its a difficult subject didge- but do you think a mother should be forced to have a child under such circumstances?

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Post by Guest on Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:56 pm

Eilzel wrote:A mother may want to have a child she will see grow up and have a long life, this is less likely if the child is DS. I'm just saying if a mother should have that choice. I don't know why a mother may feel she cannot cope but it could happen- Its a difficult subject didge- but do you think a mother should be forced to have a child under such circumstances?

That is irrelevant, all face that children face the risk they may not live to be old, basing this on a disorder again opens a can of worms, and where do women who have the genetic gene with breast cancer or men with prostrate do not have children based on your philosophy here?
Does that happen?
I doubt it, so why again if it is a case of long life is it only seeming to be a case if they are DS?
You see the arguments used are absurd, because on other even more life threatening disorders the same rule you apply really does not happen.
I think that if you are wanting to have a family, and this is natures course for the child born this way, then you accept that and love that child as it is their child, no matter if this child is born with no arms, deaf, blind, DS etc it should not matter, because this is their child.
Abortion should be only out of necessity, not because you do not want to love a child because it has a certain abnormality

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