Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

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Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:16 pm

First topic message reminder :



Likud Charter Calls for Destruction of Any Palestinian State

By Jonathan Weiler

Since virtually every comment on Hamas in American media includes the assertion that the group’s Charter rejects Israel’s right to exist, it’s worth noting the following from the Likud Platform of 1999:

a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”

b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel.
The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”

c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”

d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

There have been some updates to the platform more recently, reflecting Israel’s withdrawal of settlements from Gaza in 2005. But the Likud Party has *never* in its statements of principles, accepted a Palestinian State. Its electoral partner, Yisrael Beitenu, has likewise categorically rejected the possibility of an independent Palestinian State, insisting that the idea is nothing more than a ploy to facilitate the destruction of Israel.

The Hamas charter, of course, does more than just reject Israel as a sovereign political entity. It’s a vile document that echoes some of the worst anti-Semitic tropes of the modern era. But on the central question of one side denying the other’s legitimacy — it’s hard to ignore the symmetry between Likud – the party of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu – and Hamas.

Some defenders of Israel become indignant at the mention of these realities as scurrilous and spurious because the Likud platform quoted above is just an “old” statement of principles not reflective of the Party’s actions in power. But by that logic, the Hamas Charter, written over 25 years ago, cannot be said to be the sole controlling document of that organization, since much more recent statements and actions by its leadership have, at least some times, included an expressed willingness to pursue a long-term agreement with Israel. Furthermore, Hamas also agreed to join the Palestinian Authority in a unity government that accepts all previous PA agreements with Israel.

Too much political discussion in the United States about Israel/Palestine proceeds from the premise that Palestinians have no other interest than to destroy Israel and drive the Jews into the sea. Therefore, it is said, well-intentioned Israel has no viable negotiating partner for peace. The political reality on the ground does not conform to such a simple-minded tale of good vs. evil. Israeli hardliners in power have repeatedly rejected any basis for a viable Palestinian state. Indeed, Prime Minister Netanyahu’s qualified statement in support of a two-state solution in 2009 – which his American apologists repeatedly invoke to demonstrate his “moderate” bona fides – was characterized by a member of his own cabinet as “the spin of our lives.” In fact. Likud leaders have said unequivocally that no two-state deal is possible. And just three weeks ago, speaking at a press conference, Netanyahu said:

   “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.”

As David Horovitz wrote in The Times of Israel:

   “He wasn’t saying that he doesn’t support a two-state solution. He was saying that it’s impossible. This was not a new, dramatic change of stance by the prime minister. It was a new, dramatic exposition of his long-held stance.”

In other words, no independent Palestinian state. Period. Ever.

Arab leaders are accused *all the time* of making one set of (conciliatory) statements in front of some audiences in English, while revealing their (true) rejectionist feelings in front of others, in Arabic. To the extent that this is true, one could certainly say the same about Netanyahu – relatively conciliatory and reasonable-sounding statements for international audiences. And altogether different rhetoric for internal consumption. Bibi is, after all, a master – like many politicians – at speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

Since Palestine does not exist as a recognized independent state, there is no need for Israel’s rejectionists to call for Palestine’s “destruction.” But the consistent avowals of Israeli leaders – and the plain language of the party platforms that express their parties’ core beliefs – to prevent such a state from coming into being is not substantively different from the expressed desire of the Hamas Charter to reject Israel’s existence.

The beginnings of a more fair and balanced appreciation of the conflict would start with that acknowledgment.

http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/charter-destruction-palestinian.html


Last edited by Sassy on Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:21 pm

Perhaps Quill should listen to John Kerry a bit more:

“Israel is a Jewish state because its population is overwhelmingly Jewish, Jewish religious and historical holidays are its national holidays, and Hebrew is its national language. But Israeli demands that Palestinians recognize that Israel has been and remains the national homeland of the Jewish people is intended to require the Palestinians to affirm the legitimacy of Israel’s replacement of Palestine’s Arab population with its own. It also raises Arab fears of continuing differential treatment of Israel’s Arab citizens. Israelis are right to demand that Palestinians recognize the fact of the state of Israel and its legitimacy, which Palestinians in fact did in 1988 and again in 1993. They do not have the right to demand that Palestinians abandon their own national narrative, and the United States should not be party to such a demand,” wrote former national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski, former U.S. secretary of defense Frank Carlucci, former chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee Lee Hamilton, former U.S. trade representative Carla Hills, former under secretary of state for political affairs Thomas Pickering, and Henry Siegman, president of the U.S./Middle East Project (“Stand Firm, John Kerry,” Politico.com, 8 April 2014).

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/04/stand-firm-john-kerry-105483_full.html?print#.U-j7gGNY7IV

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Irn Bru on Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:18 pm

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:The image is sick and disgusting and but I've seen a lot worse in British Newspapers and on our television sets of bulldozers shoving hundreds of near skeletons of human beings being shoved into mass graves when places like Belsen concentration camp was discovered and what had been going on. Film of people lined up in a line alongside open tips being shot in the head and falling into a mass graves.
The BBC series World at War showed us all that and it's images and film like that that made the world aware of the Holocaust and the injustice against the Jews, the Gypsies and the miscreants.
There appears to be more outrage at the member who posted the picture than there is against the people that committed the awful act that caused that to happen to that child because I really don't see much evidence of that. And I also didn't see any condemnation of those who gather on a hillside just outside Gaza to watch and cheer as the missiles fly in.


You wanted proof Irn, here is your proof trying to downplay what Sassy posted.
Thus you are directing away blame or fault
It is either wrong to post without a warning or it is fine, it can only be one way or the other and here you even state it should have had a warning but do not tell sassy she should have used one.
Conclusion
Biased

So what part of 'a warning of graphic content wouldn't have gone amiss' is it that you do not understand? You read it and I would expect everyone else on this thread read it as well and any fair-minded person who read these words would see it as saying a warning wouldn't have gone amiss. Yet here you are trying to twist and turn it into something it isn't which is of course par for the course for you.

You're not only biased you are desperate as well.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Irn Bru on Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:45 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:Good grief, you really are good at fooling some people with nonsense like that. You describing the illegal settlements as something being built by wildcatters all in defiance of the Israeli government were something you were trying to pass off to Veya as the reason why they were being built.  I just joined that discussion after that by trying to explain to you that it had been the policy of the Israeli government to build these illegal settlements for over 40 years and it was part of their wider policy to continue with it. I even gave you the words that came right out of the mouth of Benjamin Netanyahu who said...

"The message is clear: we are here and will remain here. The settlement blocs are an indisputable part of Israel forever.

"This is acceptable to the great majority of Israel's citizens and is gradually being instilled in international consciousness."


And the statements by the Israeli minister about concentration camps in Gaza were not something that was written in private letters written by someone serving in the military. They were said by a minister in the Israeli government and they very detailed at that and they were published in the press. Here’s a reminder...

http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/columns/moshe-feiglin/my-gaza-solution/2014/07/23/

Hardly an off the cuff remark that would be looked back on later as something later to be regretted, is it?

Half arguments, half-truths!!!. Yes Quill, you’re right and it’s what you do best because there is no conspiracy going on, you just make out there is as shown in the remainder of your post.

Yes, half-arguments and half-truths, Irn.  You cry about the occupied lands, yet not a word about why.  The following tells the whole story (thanks to Didge):



Now, with Hamas/Gaza lighting off 1,300 missiles from the south, explain to me again about settlements.  It's nonsense...and you don't even know enough to state who is building settlements.  Certainly not the Israeli government.

The reason why Israel must hold those lands has been clear since 1967.  It's just good military judgment.  Yet that's the "half" you don't want to acknowledge: half-truths, half-arguments and half the picture.

Here's the other half: If the Islamic states would give up in their demand to wipe Israel off the map, we wouldn't need military plans and military solutions.  Oppps...duck, here comes another missile from Hamas.

This is precisely what I mean about half-truths, half-arguments, and half a picture.

I've explained to you why, Quill. They want the land for themselves and all at the expulsion of the Palestinian population not as a military buffer zone. You see, that's where your argument falls down because if it was a buffer zone between the Israeli settlements and the Palestinians then they wouldn't be building homes on it as that just moves the border further into the  West Bank and not further away from the Palestinians. Totally flawed and if that came from Didge then he has led you up the garden path.

Truths and half truths Quill.

You didn't mention the concentration camp statements by the Israeli minister - the statements you tried to pass of as nothing more than something that might be said between some people corresponding during a time of war. Another blogger made a connection between Gaza and  concentration camps and it was posted on this forum and Didge went absolutely ballistic. He was beside himself with fury stating he was absolutely disgusted that any such comments could be made yet I hear nothing from him about this other than maybe a whimper or two here and there. I'm just wondering if he will take issue with you on the casual way you have dismissed and swept aside these comments in the same way he did on that thread so I'll keep a watching brief on this to see if you will get the same reaction or whether this current round of mutual admiration will survive.
I'll keep a watching brief on this

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:57 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
Nems wrote:In my opinion Edds wasnt referring to a single incident but a pattern of behaviour over a period of time. The pattern being you always back Sassy without question no matter how appalling her behaviour.
Either that or you lie low until a ruck dies down and then bump other threads up the board.
As I previously said you do her no favours. We all know she gets preferential treatment - dont rub our noses in it.  Sad 

I'm sure Eds can speak for herself but I'll take you up on what you say. Give me an example where I have backed Sassy and where I have been wrong to do so?

This is just another example of the nonsense that has been going on for almost two years about a Sassy posse rubbish and now you are coming out with even more rubbish that I lie low until a ruck dies down.

Sorry, I have more to do with my time at the moment than spend it on here throughout the day and half the night and I'll post when I can.

Is that ok with you?

Wahey look forward to you puling Sassy for speaking on others behalf
Yeah right Rolling Eyes 
As for the rest if the cap fits etc

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:06 pm

Sassy wrote:So you don't believe in being polite when someone is dealing with something for you because it affects their site as well?

BTW, I did notice you 'defending' me, however I should not have needed defending, the thread should have been locked, it's no-one's business why I can't go but at least it gave Nems a chance for a laugh, with really showed her up as she knows the truth.

Thought it would be my fault !
No one expects you to go to Gaza you're an old woman for God's sake. But there are many other things you could do and would if you felt strongly enough Im sure. Trying to get elected to a parochial council will do nothing for Gaza but you are doing it for you aren't you?!
Sorry you may have lost your photos, I did try to warn you about those dodgy sites.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Irn Bru on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:09 pm

Sassy wrote:
Shady wrote:
Sassy wrote:I'm not denying it.   It's my money, and your money and Harvesmum's money etc that is being used to do that.   Unless we all speak up and demand it stops, our money will carry on helping that to happen.

Good afternoon Sassy.

So you posted a sad picture.You spoke up.And you demanded that it stops.

And millions of other people have done the same.

Guess what.It's still going on.

Yep, Vietnam carried on until enough people protested for long enough and tv viewers began to see what was really happening.

Correct and much of it inspired by the The Girl in the Picture: The Story of Kim Phuc, the 9 year old Vietnamese girl.

On June 8, 1972, nine-year-old Kim Phuc, severely burned by napalm, ran from her blazing village in South Vietnam and into the eye of history. Her photograph-one of the most unforgettable images of the twentieth century-was seen around the world and helped turn public opinion against the Vietnam War.

http://www.abebooks.com/9780140280210/Girl-Picture-Story-Kim-Phuc-0140280219/plp

That was the Photograph and an ITN Newscaster also caught the moment on video as well and that just goes to show that when the world at large is outraged by what it sees and it is strong enough then it can in fact help to bring about change.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:14 pm

Its simple, that photograph should not have been put on this site, There is no justification whatsoever. It showed an appalling lack of judgement. If any one else had upset and offended people like that they would have been taken to task. Because it was Sassy it gets minimised excused and explained away.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by scrat on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:26 pm

Nems wrote:Its simple, that photograph should not have been put on this site, There is no justification whatsoever. It showed an appalling lack of judgement. If any one else had upset and offended people like that they would have been taken to task. Because it was Sassy it gets minimised excused and explained away.  
If you're the same Nems that posts on flapfix, I did not hear your outrage at kaks postings of body parts and intestines etc, obviously you fear upsetting him and yet you spend an inordinate amount of time wanting to upset Sassy, why is that?
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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:33 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
Sassy wrote:

Yep, Vietnam carried on until enough people protested for long enough and tv viewers began to see what was really happening.

Correct and much of it inspired by the The Girl in the Picture: The Story of Kim Phuc, the 9 year old Vietnamese girl.

On June 8, 1972, nine-year-old Kim Phuc, severely burned by napalm, ran from her blazing village in South Vietnam and into the eye of history. Her photograph-one of the most unforgettable images of the twentieth century-was seen around the world and helped turn public opinion against the Vietnam War.

http://www.abebooks.com/9780140280210/Girl-Picture-Story-Kim-Phuc-0140280219/plp

That was the Photograph and an ITN Newscaster also caught the moment on video as well and that just goes to show that when the world at large is outraged by what it sees and it is strong enough then it can in fact help to bring about change.

I remember it well. It was only when America saw the broadcast of the girl running naked down the road covered in napalm burns that they finally woke up to what was being done in their name. It changed the course of history, thankfully.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:27 pm

scrat wrote:
Nems wrote:Its simple, that photograph should not have been put on this site, There is no justification whatsoever. It showed an appalling lack of judgement. If any one else had upset and offended people like that they would have been taken to task. Because it was Sassy it gets minimised excused and explained away.  
If you're the same Nems that posts on flapfix, I did not hear your outrage at kaks postings of body parts and intestines etc, obviously you fear upsetting him and yet you spend an inordinate amount of time wanting to upset Sassy, why is that?

I wasn't on flap


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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:25 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Yes, half-arguments and half-truths, Irn.  You cry about the occupied lands, yet not a word about why.  The following tells the whole story (thanks to Didge):



Now, with Hamas/Gaza lighting off 1,300 missiles from the south, explain to me again about settlements.  It's nonsense...and you don't even know enough to state who is building settlements.  Certainly not the Israeli government.

The reason why Israel must hold those lands has been clear since 1967.  It's just good military judgment.  Yet that's the "half" you don't want to acknowledge: half-truths, half-arguments and half the picture.

Here's the other half: If the Islamic states would give up in their demand to wipe Israel off the map, we wouldn't need military plans and military solutions.  Oppps...duck, here comes another missile from Hamas.

This is precisely what I mean about half-truths, half-arguments, and half a picture.

I've explained to you why, Quill. They want the land for themselves and all at the expulsion of the Palestinian population not as a military buffer zone. You see, that's where your argument falls down because if it was a buffer zone between the Israeli settlements and the Palestinians then they wouldn't be building homes on it as that just moves the border further into the  West Bank and not further away from the Palestinians. Totally flawed and if that came from Didge then he has led you up the garden path.

Truths and half truths Quill.

You didn't mention the concentration camp statements by the Israeli minister - the statements you tried to pass of as nothing more than something that might be said between some people corresponding during a time of war. Another blogger made a connection between Gaza and  concentration camps and it was posted on this forum and Didge went absolutely ballistic. He was beside himself with fury stating he was absolutely disgusted that any such comments could be made yet I hear nothing from him about this other than maybe a whimper or two here and there. I'm just wondering if he will take issue with you on the casual way you have dismissed and swept aside these comments in the same way he did on that thread so I'll keep a watching brief on this to see if you will get the same reaction or whether this current round of mutual admiration will survive.
I'll keep a watching brief on this


Complete lies and utter babble, if Israel wanted to remove the people of Palestine they have had plenty of chances to actually do this and to claim as you do it is about land is a further lie, when Israel has withdrawn from occupying the Golan heights, the Sinea desert, Lebanon, Gaza, showing the complete fabrications you are making to the point I easily rubbished the claim made of an absurd comparison to Nazi concentration camps  which you had no answer to. Your argument hinges on claims made by people. I have made countless posts about the legality of attacking military areas, all of which I have also condemned Israel when they have used indiscriminate shelling. So it proves they do not want the land, If they did they would never have withdrawn from controlling all of thes lands




Notice the difference?


Your argument made on now what a politician states or an officer, is poor to say the least and has no validity, even your claims as seen to a concentration camp where I embarrassed you over your lack of understanding the difference between a concentration camp and a death camp, you failed to acknowledge your poor error. We have also seen poor claims to calling this like the Warsaw Ghetto:












This is not the same as the Holocaust: The Warsaw Ghetto, and the uprising, took place in the context of the Holocaust. The Nazi’s predominate focus was the systematic murder of six million Jews (among others they found inferior…) Jews were sought to be decimated for no reason other than their being Jewish. In the Holocaust in general, and more specifically in the Warsaw Ghetto, the Jews were rounded up by Nazis. This was not because of anything the Jews had done, but because they were Jewish. The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is part of a land-struggle between two warring parties. Jews do not seek to destroy the Arabs based on their faith, race, or character at all. Alternatively, Arab attacks on Jews predate any Israeli occupation, and this has always been a violent conflict.
This is war: Over the course of 60+ years of armed struggle, around 25,000 Palestinians have died. Most of the deaths occurred during the course of war, armed attacks or violent protest. To compare this to the Holocaust where 6 million innocent Jews were murdered in less than 6 years is cruel and dishonest. Additionally, it ignores the fact that these two instances have nothing in common other than the end result of death. The Jews were murdered in cold blood for no logical reason other than Hitler’s desire to deplete the world of their existence, while Palestinians have died as a tragic consequence of an Arab-provoked conflict.
There is no genocide in Gaza: Gaza’s population in 1967 was estimated at around 370,000. Today there are around 1.8 million Palestinians, a 500% increase. If Israel were conducting a genocide, Palestinians would not have multiplied five-fold. Additionally, the word genocide is defined as a deliberate killing of a large group of people based on ethnicity or nation. Israel does not seek to decimate the entire Muslim or Arab population. Once again, if it did, the population would not have grown.
Population density, deportations and murder: The Warsaw Ghetto’s population density was 24-times Gaza’s population density. By June 1943, the Warsaw Ghetto was liquidated of all its Jews. 254,000 were murdered at Treblinka, 100,000 died of starvation, disease or random executions, and the remaining 50,000 were either killed or deported to Nazi death and concentration camps. Gaza is not a concentration camp in the slightest. Israelis do not gas Palestinians to death, put them into ovens to burn their bodies, or force them into hard labor to “set them free.” In fact, Israel seeks to take care of Palestinians with food, medical supplies and health care. The fact that Hamas prevents Palestinians from accepting various assistance methods is not the fault of Israel but of Hamas.
Stay away from the Holocaust


Anti-Semites and anti-Israel activists alike have a peculiar selective memory. Many will both deny the Holocaust and compare modern day Israel to the Nazis. This absurd notion has no basis in reality, but it has never stopped anti-Semitic bigots before. They should either accept that 6 million Jews were brutally massacred as part of a genocidal scheme or stop using the Nazis as a comparison to deride Israel and the Jews. Even if these anti-Israel advocates accept the Holocaust, they willfully ignore facts and trivialize academic honesty for the sake of politics and Jew-hatred. It is the ultimate cruel, twisted irony that those who erroneously accuse Israel of committing genocide employ the actual genocide of the Jews in the Holocaust to defend the actions of Hamas, a group that actively attempts the genocide of the world’s remaining Jews.


The Warsaw Ghetto in the Context of the Holocaust


The Holocaust was the Nazis’ systematic murder of 6 million Jews between 1939 and 1945. The Nazis used gas chambers and bullets, but also starvation, disease and forced labor as a means of killing the Jews. Unless you believe the vilest of the anti-Semitic trope, the Jews were innocent victims of an evil genocidal campaign. The Jews fought no war against Germany, except according to the sick, twisted minds of Nazi leaders. Enemies of Israel could have chosen many other analogies, yet they chose the Warsaw Ghetto because of its emotional significance.


The Nazis established the Warsaw Ghetto on April 1, 1940. This narrow corridor of the Polish capital, 1.3 square miles, housed over 400,000 Jews until its final liquidation in 1943. Residents of the Warsaw Ghetto lived 6-7 per room and were given well below the necessary calorie-intake for sustaining life. Over 100,000 Jews died in the ghetto due to starvation, disease or random killings. The Nazis deported more than 254,000 Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto to the Treblinka death camp. Almost all of these innocent Jews were killed in Treblinka’s gas chambers. During the Warsaw Ghetto’s final liquidation starting on January 18, 1943, the Nazis killed or deported the remaining 56,000 Jews to concentration and death camps.


Gaza


It is sad that I must draw distinctions and elucidate the differences between the Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza. Gaza is a coastal strip of land 139 square miles in area (100 times the size of the Warsaw Ghetto). It is home to 1.8 million Palestinians, giving it a population density of around 13,000 people per square mile. The Warsaw Ghetto was nearly 24 times more densely populated.


In the course of more than 60 years of Israeli-Palestinian struggles, or even longer depending on how you define the conflict, approximately 25,000 Palestinians have died. This was during the course of a territorial struggle and many of those deaths were combatants. Palestinians participated in a bloody struggle to oust Jews from the land of Israel and lost. Instead of accepting a U.N.-sponsored plan to partition the land, the Arabs of Mandatory Palestine and six surrounding countries waged a brutal and bloody war to eradicate the Jews of Israel. From 1948-1967, Egypt occupied Gaza. After Egyptian belligerency in 1967, Israel preemptively attacked Egypt resulting in Israel’s capture of Gaza.


At the beginning of the 1948 War, approximately 60,000-80,000 Arabs lived in Gaza and an additional 200,000 Arabs fled to Gaza during the course of the war. In 1967, when Israel assumed control of the Gaza Strip, approximately 370,000 Palestinians lived there. If Israel’s intention were to eliminate the Palestinians, then it failed. Today, 1.8 million Arabs live in the Gaza Strip, a nearly 500% increase over less than 50 years. Bringing this back to the Warsaw Ghetto, the Warsaw Ghetto was liquidated of its 400,000 Jews over the course of less than three years through murder, starvation and disease. Over a nearly 50-year period, the Palestinian population of Gaza has increased five-fold.


Palestinian belligerence against Israel


Israeli civilians have suffered from terrorism emanating from the Gaza Strip since 1948. In the early days of the nascent Jewish State, Fedayeen attacks against Israeli civilians originated from the Gaza Strip. Attacks from Gaza on Israel’s civilian population have never ceased; they have only changed their form. Palestinians from Gaza have conducted shooting attacks, suicide bombings and rocket attacks on Israeli civilians. The mistake often made on the anti-Israel side is to confuse cause and effect. Palestinian terrorism against Israel created the security restrictions, not the other way around.


Israeli aid to Gaza


Though it should be abundantly clear by now that Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto have nothing in common, Israeli aid to the region should dispel that false notion. Israel facilitates the entry of an extraordinary amount of goods. Just look at the Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories’ website for details on what Israel is sending to Gaza daily. Israel provides water, electricity and has offered to help build desalination plants to aid the Palestinians. Those who claim that Israel occupies Gaza, which it does not, state that Israel is obliged under international law to provide for the Palestinians of Gaza. Israel provides all the aid while being under constant threat of attack by Hamas, Gaza’s rulers.


In addition to Israeli aid, the international community sends more aid to the Palestinians per capita than to any other group. Israel is reluctant to let certain items into Gaza because Hamas uses them for nefarious purposes. Instead of using cement to build homes, hospitals and schools, Hamas uses it to build underground bunkers and terror tunnels. Israel carefully evaluates what it does and does not allow into Gaza. Israel limits goods from entering Gaza because Hamas and other Palestinian groups use these materials for their terrorist infrastructure.


Conclusion


The Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza have nothing in common. The Warsaw Ghetto was a piece in the diabolical puzzle of the Jewish Holocaust by the Nazis. Gaza’s security situation is caused by Israeli reaction to Palestinian terrorism, or belligerence, if you prefer that term. The Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto committed no crime and did not provoke any Nazi aggression through violence. Palestinians in Gaza have been attacking the Jews of Israel since Israel’s founding. Through Fedayeen and terrorist attacks, Palestinians in Gaza have forced Israel to defend its citizens through measures that have had an adverse effect on other Palestinians in Gaza. The Nazis completely liquidated the Warsaw Ghetto in the course of three years, killing around 400,000 Jews. After over 60 years of struggle, including nearly 50 years of Jewish dominion over Gaza, around 25,000 Palestinians have been killed in the entire struggle (not just Gaza), many of whom were combatants. Under 50 years of Israeli control, Gaza has actually increased its population by 500%. Finally, Israel has performed an admirable job, under fire, of providing aid to the Palestinians, though much of that aid is seized by Hamas, a terrorist organization.


As the horrific events unfold on Mount Sinjar and the Yazidis there face a massacre at the hands of the Islamic State, the world must be outraged by a real genocide occurring in our time. By falsely hijacking the example of the Warsaw Ghetto in an attempt to exploit the memory of the Holocaust, anti-Israel advocates demean the memory of the Holocaust, falsely malign Israel, and desensitize the world to actual genocides occurring in our midst.

If you still think that the Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza are comparable situations you are either willfully ignorant or delusional.






http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/no-gaza-is-not-the-warsaw-ghetto/

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:34 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
Sassy wrote:

Yep, Vietnam carried on until enough people protested for long enough and tv viewers began to see what was really happening.

Correct and much of it inspired by the The Girl in the Picture: The Story of Kim Phuc, the 9 year old Vietnamese girl.

On June 8, 1972, nine-year-old Kim Phuc, severely burned by napalm, ran from her blazing village in South Vietnam and into the eye of history. Her photograph-one of the most unforgettable images of the twentieth century-was seen around the world and helped turn public opinion against the Vietnam War.

http://www.abebooks.com/9780140280210/Girl-Picture-Story-Kim-Phuc-0140280219/plp

That was the Photograph and an ITN Newscaster also caught the moment on video as well and that just goes to show that when the world at large is outraged by what it sees and it is strong enough then it can in fact help to bring about change.




And yet we see in both Syria and Iraq real genocide of groups of people and yet there are no protests from the left, why is that?
I mean you have both just argued there is more than ever a reason to do so to act against ISIS who are systematically butchering Innocent people.
Does this conflict matter less now to you and Sassy or is it really about the hatred of Israel, because as seen you have just proven the poor disparity at protesting where there is real genocide going on in Iraq and Syria?

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:27 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Sassy wrote:

Yep, Vietnam carried on until enough people protested for long enough and tv viewers began to see what was really happening.

Correct and much of it inspired by the The Girl in the Picture: The Story of Kim Phuc, the 9 year old Vietnamese girl.

On June 8, 1972, nine-year-old Kim Phuc, severely burned by napalm, ran from her blazing village in South Vietnam and into the eye of history. Her photograph-one of the most unforgettable images of the twentieth century-was seen around the world and helped turn public opinion against the Vietnam War.

http://www.abebooks.com/9780140280210/Girl-Picture-Story-Kim-Phuc-0140280219/plp

That was the Photograph and an ITN Newscaster also caught the moment on video as well and that just goes to show that when the world at large is outraged by what it sees and it is strong enough then it can in fact help to bring about change.




And yet we see in both Syria and Iraq real genocide of groups of people and yet there are no protests from the left, why is that?
I mean you have both just argued there is more than ever a reason to do so to act against ISIS who are systematically butchering Innocent people.
Does this conflict matter less now to you and Sassy or is it really about the hatred of Israel, because as seen you have just proven the poor disparity at protesting where there is real genocide going on in Iraq and Syria?


ISIS is a terrorist Group unsanctioned by the UN
ISRAEL is a UN Nation..

Are you Now telling me ISIS and ISRAEL are the same thing????

If not why are you putting them side by side and using one to excuse another?


AND I have said that ISIS are worse, I said when they first entered Iraq the west should Bomb their strategic positions to stop the snowball effect that they have now had.
BUT and it is a BIG BUT... ISIS is a Terrorist group therefore I don't expect it to meet the Minimum standards of Humane warfare... at least not in a way where protests and verbal admonishment is going to do anything.

ISRAEL is supposed to be BETTER than them. It should be Standing Head and Shoulders above the rest in it's Humanitarian engagement of warfare BUT it is not, while not as bad as ISIS it is definitely as bad as Hamas... and in lot a ways the ONLY group in the region that in my opinion has acted in a way to DESERVE western Support is the Kurds.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:32 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Yes, half-arguments and half-truths, Irn.  You cry about the occupied lands, yet not a word about why.  The following tells the whole story (thanks to Didge):



Now, with Hamas/Gaza lighting off 1,300 missiles from the south, explain to me again about settlements.  It's nonsense...and you don't even know enough to state who is building settlements.  Certainly not the Israeli government.

The reason why Israel must hold those lands has been clear since 1967.  It's just good military judgment.  Yet that's the "half" you don't want to acknowledge: half-truths, half-arguments and half the picture.

Here's the other half: If the Islamic states would give up in their demand to wipe Israel off the map, we wouldn't need military plans and military solutions.  Oppps...duck, here comes another missile from Hamas.

This is precisely what I mean about half-truths, half-arguments, and half a picture.

I've explained to you why, Quill. They want the land for themselves and all at the expulsion of the Palestinian population not as a military buffer zone. You see, that's where your argument falls down because if it was a buffer zone between the Israeli settlements and the Palestinians then they wouldn't be building homes on it as that just moves the border further into the  West Bank and not further away from the Palestinians. Totally flawed and if that came from Didge then he has led you up the garden path.

Truths and half truths Quill.

You didn't mention the concentration camp statements by the Israeli minister - the statements you tried to pass of as nothing more than something that might be said between some people corresponding during a time of war. Another blogger made a connection between Gaza and  concentration camps and it was posted on this forum and Didge went absolutely ballistic. He was beside himself with fury stating he was absolutely disgusted that any such comments could be made yet I hear nothing from him about this other than maybe a whimper or two here and there. I'm just wondering if he will take issue with you on the casual way you have dismissed and swept aside these comments in the same way he did on that thread so I'll keep a watching brief on this to see if you will get the same reaction or whether this current round of mutual admiration will survive.
I'll keep a watching brief on this


Complete lies and utter babble, if Israel wanted to remove the people of Palestine they have had plenty of chances to actually do this and to claim as you do it is about land is a further lie, when Israel has withdrawn from occupying the Golan heights, the Sinea desert, Lebanon, Gaza, showing the complete fabrications you are making to the point I easily rubbished the claim made of an absurd comparison to Nazi concentration camps  which you had no answer to. Your argument hinges on claims made by people. I have made countless posts about the legality of attacking military areas, all of which I have also condemned Israel when they have used indiscriminate shelling. So it proves they do not want the land, If they did they would never have withdrawn from controlling all of thes lands




Notice the difference?


Your argument made on now what a politician states or an officer, is poor to say the least and has no validity, even your claims as seen to a concentration camp where I embarrassed you over your lack of understanding the difference between a concentration camp and a death camp, you failed to acknowledge your poor error. We have also seen poor claims to calling this like the Warsaw Ghetto:












This is not the same as the Holocaust: The Warsaw Ghetto, and the uprising, took place in the context of the Holocaust. The Nazi’s predominate focus was the systematic murder of six million Jews (among others they found inferior…) Jews were sought to be decimated for no reason other than their being Jewish. In the Holocaust in general, and more specifically in the Warsaw Ghetto, the Jews were rounded up by Nazis. This was not because of anything the Jews had done, but because they were Jewish. The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is part of a land-struggle between two warring parties. Jews do not seek to destroy the Arabs based on their faith, race, or character at all. Alternatively, Arab attacks on Jews predate any Israeli occupation, and this has always been a violent conflict.
This is war: Over the course of 60+ years of armed struggle, around 25,000 Palestinians have died. Most of the deaths occurred during the course of war, armed attacks or violent protest. To compare this to the Holocaust where 6 million innocent Jews were murdered in less than 6 years is cruel and dishonest. Additionally, it ignores the fact that these two instances have nothing in common other than the end result of death. The Jews were murdered in cold blood for no logical reason other than Hitler’s desire to deplete the world of their existence, while Palestinians have died as a tragic consequence of an Arab-provoked conflict.
There is no genocide in Gaza: Gaza’s population in 1967 was estimated at around 370,000. Today there are around 1.8 million Palestinians, a 500% increase. If Israel were conducting a genocide, Palestinians would not have multiplied five-fold. Additionally, the word genocide is defined as a deliberate killing of a large group of people based on ethnicity or nation. Israel does not seek to decimate the entire Muslim or Arab population. Once again, if it did, the population would not have grown.
Population density, deportations and murder: The Warsaw Ghetto’s population density was 24-times Gaza’s population density. By June 1943, the Warsaw Ghetto was liquidated of all its Jews. 254,000 were murdered at Treblinka, 100,000 died of starvation, disease or random executions, and the remaining 50,000 were either killed or deported to Nazi death and concentration camps. Gaza is not a concentration camp in the slightest. Israelis do not gas Palestinians to death, put them into ovens to burn their bodies, or force them into hard labor to “set them free.” In fact, Israel seeks to take care of Palestinians with food, medical supplies and health care. The fact that Hamas prevents Palestinians from accepting various assistance methods is not the fault of Israel but of Hamas.
Stay away from the Holocaust


Anti-Semites and anti-Israel activists alike have a peculiar selective memory. Many will both deny the Holocaust and compare modern day Israel to the Nazis. This absurd notion has no basis in reality, but it has never stopped anti-Semitic bigots before. They should either accept that 6 million Jews were brutally massacred as part of a genocidal scheme or stop using the Nazis as a comparison to deride Israel and the Jews. Even if these anti-Israel advocates accept the Holocaust, they willfully ignore facts and trivialize academic honesty for the sake of politics and Jew-hatred. It is the ultimate cruel, twisted irony that those who erroneously accuse Israel of committing genocide employ the actual genocide of the Jews in the Holocaust to defend the actions of Hamas, a group that actively attempts the genocide of the world’s remaining Jews.


The Warsaw Ghetto in the Context of the Holocaust


The Holocaust was the Nazis’ systematic murder of 6 million Jews between 1939 and 1945. The Nazis used gas chambers and bullets, but also starvation, disease and forced labor as a means of killing the Jews. Unless you believe the vilest of the anti-Semitic trope, the Jews were innocent victims of an evil genocidal campaign. The Jews fought no war against Germany, except according to the sick, twisted minds of Nazi leaders. Enemies of Israel could have chosen many other analogies, yet they chose the Warsaw Ghetto because of its emotional significance.


The Nazis established the Warsaw Ghetto on April 1, 1940. This narrow corridor of the Polish capital, 1.3 square miles, housed over 400,000 Jews until its final liquidation in 1943. Residents of the Warsaw Ghetto lived 6-7 per room and were given well below the necessary calorie-intake for sustaining life. Over 100,000 Jews died in the ghetto due to starvation, disease or random killings. The Nazis deported more than 254,000 Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto to the Treblinka death camp. Almost all of these innocent Jews were killed in Treblinka’s gas chambers. During the Warsaw Ghetto’s final liquidation starting on January 18, 1943, the Nazis killed or deported the remaining 56,000 Jews to concentration and death camps.


Gaza


It is sad that I must draw distinctions and elucidate the differences between the Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza. Gaza is a coastal strip of land 139 square miles in area (100 times the size of the Warsaw Ghetto). It is home to 1.8 million Palestinians, giving it a population density of around 13,000 people per square mile. The Warsaw Ghetto was nearly 24 times more densely populated.


In the course of more than 60 years of Israeli-Palestinian struggles, or even longer depending on how you define the conflict, approximately 25,000 Palestinians have died. This was during the course of a territorial struggle and many of those deaths were combatants. Palestinians participated in a bloody struggle to oust Jews from the land of Israel and lost. Instead of accepting a U.N.-sponsored plan to partition the land, the Arabs of Mandatory Palestine and six surrounding countries waged a brutal and bloody war to eradicate the Jews of Israel. From 1948-1967, Egypt occupied Gaza. After Egyptian belligerency in 1967, Israel preemptively attacked Egypt resulting in Israel’s capture of Gaza.


At the beginning of the 1948 War, approximately 60,000-80,000 Arabs lived in Gaza and an additional 200,000 Arabs fled to Gaza during the course of the war. In 1967, when Israel assumed control of the Gaza Strip, approximately 370,000 Palestinians lived there. If Israel’s intention were to eliminate the Palestinians, then it failed. Today, 1.8 million Arabs live in the Gaza Strip, a nearly 500% increase over less than 50 years. Bringing this back to the Warsaw Ghetto, the Warsaw Ghetto was liquidated of its 400,000 Jews over the course of less than three years through murder, starvation and disease. Over a nearly 50-year period, the Palestinian population of Gaza has increased five-fold.


Palestinian belligerence against Israel


Israeli civilians have suffered from terrorism emanating from the Gaza Strip since 1948. In the early days of the nascent Jewish State, Fedayeen attacks against Israeli civilians originated from the Gaza Strip. Attacks from Gaza on Israel’s civilian population have never ceased; they have only changed their form. Palestinians from Gaza have conducted shooting attacks, suicide bombings and rocket attacks on Israeli civilians. The mistake often made on the anti-Israel side is to confuse cause and effect. Palestinian terrorism against Israel created the security restrictions, not the other way around.


Israeli aid to Gaza


Though it should be abundantly clear by now that Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto have nothing in common, Israeli aid to the region should dispel that false notion. Israel facilitates the entry of an extraordinary amount of goods. Just look at the Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories’ website for details on what Israel is sending to Gaza daily. Israel provides water, electricity and has offered to help build desalination plants to aid the Palestinians. Those who claim that Israel occupies Gaza, which it does not, state that Israel is obliged under international law to provide for the Palestinians of Gaza. Israel provides all the aid while being under constant threat of attack by Hamas, Gaza’s rulers.


In addition to Israeli aid, the international community sends more aid to the Palestinians per capita than to any other group. Israel is reluctant to let certain items into Gaza because Hamas uses them for nefarious purposes. Instead of using cement to build homes, hospitals and schools, Hamas uses it to build underground bunkers and terror tunnels. Israel carefully evaluates what it does and does not allow into Gaza. Israel limits goods from entering Gaza because Hamas and other Palestinian groups use these materials for their terrorist infrastructure.


Conclusion


The Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza have nothing in common. The Warsaw Ghetto was a piece in the diabolical puzzle of the Jewish Holocaust by the Nazis. Gaza’s security situation is caused by Israeli reaction to Palestinian terrorism, or belligerence, if you prefer that term. The Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto committed no crime and did not provoke any Nazi aggression through violence. Palestinians in Gaza have been attacking the Jews of Israel since Israel’s founding. Through Fedayeen and terrorist attacks, Palestinians in Gaza have forced Israel to defend its citizens through measures that have had an adverse effect on other Palestinians in Gaza. The Nazis completely liquidated the Warsaw Ghetto in the course of three years, killing around 400,000 Jews. After over 60 years of struggle, including nearly 50 years of Jewish dominion over Gaza, around 25,000 Palestinians have been killed in the entire struggle (not just Gaza), many of whom were combatants. Under 50 years of Israeli control, Gaza has actually increased its population by 500%. Finally, Israel has performed an admirable job, under fire, of providing aid to the Palestinians, though much of that aid is seized by Hamas, a terrorist organization.


As the horrific events unfold on Mount Sinjar and the Yazidis there face a massacre at the hands of the Islamic State, the world must be outraged by a real genocide occurring in our time. By falsely hijacking the example of the Warsaw Ghetto in an attempt to exploit the memory of the Holocaust, anti-Israel advocates demean the memory of the Holocaust, falsely malign Israel, and desensitize the world to actual genocides occurring in our midst.

If you still think that the Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza are comparable situations you are either willfully ignorant or delusional.






http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/no-gaza-is-not-the-warsaw-ghetto/

Didge old bean, I think you need to keep up to date certainly in respect of the Golan Heights where Israel have just recently granted the first Golan Heights oil drilling license to Genie Energy, a company advised by Dick Cheney in which Jacob Rothschild and Rupert Murdoch hold significant shares. There are also approximately 20,000 Israeli settlers already in the region so your claim that Israel have withdrawn is a mistake on your part or it’s just a pack of lies.

Israel isn’t really interested in occupying the Sinai desert, or Lebanon, but they are interested in Gaza hence the statements by the Israeli minister that the land is theirs and the setting up of concentration camps should be a start in ridding the place of the Palestinians who don’t fit in and succumb to Jewish rule. They withdrew from Gaza because they could hardly turn it into the virtual prison camp it is and treat the residents there in the way they have been doing over these last few years if their very own citizens were in there could they?

And you only embarrassed yourself on the other thread in the way you blew your top by failing to recognise that the author clearly made a difference between the earlier concentration camps he was talking about prior to them becoming the disgusting death camps. The Red mist came down and you just became completely irrational to the point that it was just pure rage and obvious that you were not thinking things through properly.

And yet here we have an Israeli minister making a case for concentration camps in Gaza and do I see the same sort of reaction from you? No, not a dickie. Quill even dismisses the whole thing and bats it away as trivial and the sort of thing that people would say in private correspondence but would probably regret it later.  Quill ‘gets it’ you said earlier and I’m wondering why you are not responding to this in much the same way as you did on the other thread.
Would you mind telling me where you found that image you have thrown up comparing concentration camps and Gaza because I’d like to see the source that it came from?

The rest of your post is just basically C&P written by someone who lives in New York and the sort of thing that you complain about others doing so I take it that there will be no more said about that when you see it.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:50 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Sassy wrote:

Yep, Vietnam carried on until enough people protested for long enough and tv viewers began to see what was really happening.

Correct and much of it inspired by the The Girl in the Picture: The Story of Kim Phuc, the 9 year old Vietnamese girl.

On June 8, 1972, nine-year-old Kim Phuc, severely burned by napalm, ran from her blazing village in South Vietnam and into the eye of history. Her photograph-one of the most unforgettable images of the twentieth century-was seen around the world and helped turn public opinion against the Vietnam War.

http://www.abebooks.com/9780140280210/Girl-Picture-Story-Kim-Phuc-0140280219/plp

That was the Photograph and an ITN Newscaster also caught the moment on video as well and that just goes to show that when the world at large is outraged by what it sees and it is strong enough then it can in fact help to bring about change.




And yet we see in both Syria and Iraq real genocide of groups of people and yet there are no protests from the left, why is that?
I mean you have both just argued there is more than ever a reason to do so to act against ISIS who are systematically butchering Innocent people.
Does this conflict matter less now to you and Sassy or is it really about the hatred of Israel, because as seen you have just proven the poor disparity at protesting where there is real genocide going on in Iraq and Syria?

Didge, something is being done about ISIS and if you didn't know that you have been seriously out of touch with what is going on. Our government are doing something in assisting the Americans against ISIS by providing humanitarian aid to those fleeing from the terror and you will also find that British Tornado jet fighters will be in the region shortly backing up the US led fight to halt these nutters.

I absolutely support that action so please don't for a moment try to make out that I do not care. Yet in Israel we see our government still selling military hardware to them whilst calling for restraint. They have also sent NHS staff out to Gaza to help treating the wounded possibly caused by the very hardware we are supplying them with.
Israel has has every right to defend it's borders in a proportionate way against the rocket attacks and they have a thriving defence industry of their own that is more than capable of doing that.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:51 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:


Complete lies and utter babble, if Israel wanted to remove the people of Palestine they have had plenty of chances to actually do this and to claim as you do it is about land is a further lie, when Israel has withdrawn from occupying the Golan heights, the Sinea desert, Lebanon, Gaza, showing the complete fabrications you are making to the point I easily rubbished the claim made of an absurd comparison to Nazi concentration camps  which you had no answer to. Your argument hinges on claims made by people. I have made countless posts about the legality of attacking military areas, all of which I have also condemned Israel when they have used indiscriminate shelling. So it proves they do not want the land, If they did they would never have withdrawn from controlling all of thes lands




Notice the difference?


Your argument made on now what a politician states or an officer, is poor to say the least and has no validity, even your claims as seen to a concentration camp where I embarrassed you over your lack of understanding the difference between a concentration camp and a death camp, you failed to acknowledge your poor error. We have also seen poor claims to calling this like the Warsaw Ghetto:












This is not the same as the Holocaust: The Warsaw Ghetto, and the uprising, took place in the context of the Holocaust. The Nazi’s predominate focus was the systematic murder of six million Jews (among others they found inferior…) Jews were sought to be decimated for no reason other than their being Jewish. In the Holocaust in general, and more specifically in the Warsaw Ghetto, the Jews were rounded up by Nazis. This was not because of anything the Jews had done, but because they were Jewish. The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is part of a land-struggle between two warring parties. Jews do not seek to destroy the Arabs based on their faith, race, or character at all. Alternatively, Arab attacks on Jews predate any Israeli occupation, and this has always been a violent conflict.
This is war: Over the course of 60+ years of armed struggle, around 25,000 Palestinians have died. Most of the deaths occurred during the course of war, armed attacks or violent protest. To compare this to the Holocaust where 6 million innocent Jews were murdered in less than 6 years is cruel and dishonest. Additionally, it ignores the fact that these two instances have nothing in common other than the end result of death. The Jews were murdered in cold blood for no logical reason other than Hitler’s desire to deplete the world of their existence, while Palestinians have died as a tragic consequence of an Arab-provoked conflict.
There is no genocide in Gaza: Gaza’s population in 1967 was estimated at around 370,000. Today there are around 1.8 million Palestinians, a 500% increase. If Israel were conducting a genocide, Palestinians would not have multiplied five-fold. Additionally, the word genocide is defined as a deliberate killing of a large group of people based on ethnicity or nation. Israel does not seek to decimate the entire Muslim or Arab population. Once again, if it did, the population would not have grown.
Population density, deportations and murder: The Warsaw Ghetto’s population density was 24-times Gaza’s population density. By June 1943, the Warsaw Ghetto was liquidated of all its Jews. 254,000 were murdered at Treblinka, 100,000 died of starvation, disease or random executions, and the remaining 50,000 were either killed or deported to Nazi death and concentration camps. Gaza is not a concentration camp in the slightest. Israelis do not gas Palestinians to death, put them into ovens to burn their bodies, or force them into hard labor to “set them free.” In fact, Israel seeks to take care of Palestinians with food, medical supplies and health care. The fact that Hamas prevents Palestinians from accepting various assistance methods is not the fault of Israel but of Hamas.
Stay away from the Holocaust


Anti-Semites and anti-Israel activists alike have a peculiar selective memory. Many will both deny the Holocaust and compare modern day Israel to the Nazis. This absurd notion has no basis in reality, but it has never stopped anti-Semitic bigots before. They should either accept that 6 million Jews were brutally massacred as part of a genocidal scheme or stop using the Nazis as a comparison to deride Israel and the Jews. Even if these anti-Israel advocates accept the Holocaust, they willfully ignore facts and trivialize academic honesty for the sake of politics and Jew-hatred. It is the ultimate cruel, twisted irony that those who erroneously accuse Israel of committing genocide employ the actual genocide of the Jews in the Holocaust to defend the actions of Hamas, a group that actively attempts the genocide of the world’s remaining Jews.


The Warsaw Ghetto in the Context of the Holocaust


The Holocaust was the Nazis’ systematic murder of 6 million Jews between 1939 and 1945. The Nazis used gas chambers and bullets, but also starvation, disease and forced labor as a means of killing the Jews. Unless you believe the vilest of the anti-Semitic trope, the Jews were innocent victims of an evil genocidal campaign. The Jews fought no war against Germany, except according to the sick, twisted minds of Nazi leaders. Enemies of Israel could have chosen many other analogies, yet they chose the Warsaw Ghetto because of its emotional significance.


The Nazis established the Warsaw Ghetto on April 1, 1940. This narrow corridor of the Polish capital, 1.3 square miles, housed over 400,000 Jews until its final liquidation in 1943. Residents of the Warsaw Ghetto lived 6-7 per room and were given well below the necessary calorie-intake for sustaining life. Over 100,000 Jews died in the ghetto due to starvation, disease or random killings. The Nazis deported more than 254,000 Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto to the Treblinka death camp. Almost all of these innocent Jews were killed in Treblinka’s gas chambers. During the Warsaw Ghetto’s final liquidation starting on January 18, 1943, the Nazis killed or deported the remaining 56,000 Jews to concentration and death camps.


Gaza


It is sad that I must draw distinctions and elucidate the differences between the Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza. Gaza is a coastal strip of land 139 square miles in area (100 times the size of the Warsaw Ghetto). It is home to 1.8 million Palestinians, giving it a population density of around 13,000 people per square mile. The Warsaw Ghetto was nearly 24 times more densely populated.


In the course of more than 60 years of Israeli-Palestinian struggles, or even longer depending on how you define the conflict, approximately 25,000 Palestinians have died. This was during the course of a territorial struggle and many of those deaths were combatants. Palestinians participated in a bloody struggle to oust Jews from the land of Israel and lost. Instead of accepting a U.N.-sponsored plan to partition the land, the Arabs of Mandatory Palestine and six surrounding countries waged a brutal and bloody war to eradicate the Jews of Israel. From 1948-1967, Egypt occupied Gaza. After Egyptian belligerency in 1967, Israel preemptively attacked Egypt resulting in Israel’s capture of Gaza.


At the beginning of the 1948 War, approximately 60,000-80,000 Arabs lived in Gaza and an additional 200,000 Arabs fled to Gaza during the course of the war. In 1967, when Israel assumed control of the Gaza Strip, approximately 370,000 Palestinians lived there. If Israel’s intention were to eliminate the Palestinians, then it failed. Today, 1.8 million Arabs live in the Gaza Strip, a nearly 500% increase over less than 50 years. Bringing this back to the Warsaw Ghetto, the Warsaw Ghetto was liquidated of its 400,000 Jews over the course of less than three years through murder, starvation and disease. Over a nearly 50-year period, the Palestinian population of Gaza has increased five-fold.


Palestinian belligerence against Israel


Israeli civilians have suffered from terrorism emanating from the Gaza Strip since 1948. In the early days of the nascent Jewish State, Fedayeen attacks against Israeli civilians originated from the Gaza Strip. Attacks from Gaza on Israel’s civilian population have never ceased; they have only changed their form. Palestinians from Gaza have conducted shooting attacks, suicide bombings and rocket attacks on Israeli civilians. The mistake often made on the anti-Israel side is to confuse cause and effect. Palestinian terrorism against Israel created the security restrictions, not the other way around.


Israeli aid to Gaza


Though it should be abundantly clear by now that Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto have nothing in common, Israeli aid to the region should dispel that false notion. Israel facilitates the entry of an extraordinary amount of goods. Just look at the Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories’ website for details on what Israel is sending to Gaza daily. Israel provides water, electricity and has offered to help build desalination plants to aid the Palestinians. Those who claim that Israel occupies Gaza, which it does not, state that Israel is obliged under international law to provide for the Palestinians of Gaza. Israel provides all the aid while being under constant threat of attack by Hamas, Gaza’s rulers.


In addition to Israeli aid, the international community sends more aid to the Palestinians per capita than to any other group. Israel is reluctant to let certain items into Gaza because Hamas uses them for nefarious purposes. Instead of using cement to build homes, hospitals and schools, Hamas uses it to build underground bunkers and terror tunnels. Israel carefully evaluates what it does and does not allow into Gaza. Israel limits goods from entering Gaza because Hamas and other Palestinian groups use these materials for their terrorist infrastructure.


Conclusion


The Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza have nothing in common. The Warsaw Ghetto was a piece in the diabolical puzzle of the Jewish Holocaust by the Nazis. Gaza’s security situation is caused by Israeli reaction to Palestinian terrorism, or belligerence, if you prefer that term. The Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto committed no crime and did not provoke any Nazi aggression through violence. Palestinians in Gaza have been attacking the Jews of Israel since Israel’s founding. Through Fedayeen and terrorist attacks, Palestinians in Gaza have forced Israel to defend its citizens through measures that have had an adverse effect on other Palestinians in Gaza. The Nazis completely liquidated the Warsaw Ghetto in the course of three years, killing around 400,000 Jews. After over 60 years of struggle, including nearly 50 years of Jewish dominion over Gaza, around 25,000 Palestinians have been killed in the entire struggle (not just Gaza), many of whom were combatants. Under 50 years of Israeli control, Gaza has actually increased its population by 500%. Finally, Israel has performed an admirable job, under fire, of providing aid to the Palestinians, though much of that aid is seized by Hamas, a terrorist organization.


As the horrific events unfold on Mount Sinjar and the Yazidis there face a massacre at the hands of the Islamic State, the world must be outraged by a real genocide occurring in our time. By falsely hijacking the example of the Warsaw Ghetto in an attempt to exploit the memory of the Holocaust, anti-Israel advocates demean the memory of the Holocaust, falsely malign Israel, and desensitize the world to actual genocides occurring in our midst.

If you still think that the Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza are comparable situations you are either willfully ignorant or delusional.






http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/no-gaza-is-not-the-warsaw-ghetto/

Didge old bean, I think you need to keep up to date certainly in respect of the Golan Heights where Israel have just recently granted the first Golan Heights oil drilling license to Genie Energy, a company advised by Dick Cheney in which Jacob Rothschild and Rupert Murdoch hold significant shares. There are also approximately 20,000 Israeli settlers already in the region so your claim that Israel have withdrawn is a mistake on your part or it’s just a pack of lies.
Hilarious and more abusrdity, are they occupying the Golan heights?
No, you need to stop being taking in by the commie shite you read mate


Israel isn’t really interested in occupying the Sinai desert, or Lebanon, but they are interested in Gaza hence the statements by the Israeli minister that the land is theirs and the setting up of concentration camps should be a start in ridding the place of the Palestinians who don’t fit in and succumb to Jewish rule. They withdrew from Gaza because they could hardly turn it into the virtual prison camp it is and treat the residents there in the way they have been doing over these last few years if their very own citizens were in there could they?
Really, is that why they pulled out in 2005 then?
You see your arguments are baseless and groundless as seen Israel would have never pulled ou tif their intent was to occupy. AS to prison camp is both comical and far from the reality when as seen Hamas is well funded and provided with substantial funds which instead of proving provisions for the people of Gaza they buy and smuggle in arms, so I suggest you rethink that daft claim 

And you only embarrassed yourself on the other thread in the way you blew your top by failing to recognise that the author clearly made a difference between the earlier concentration camps he was talking about prior to them becoming the disgusting death camps. The Red mist came down and you just became completely irrational to the point that it was just pure rage and obvious that you were not thinking things through properly.
Actually you did when I had to educate you on the difference between a concentration camp and a death camp for you to even worse claim the article did not mention German concentration camps, that was embarrassing on your part which you still try and twist out of ha ha. So no red mist it was just easy to show how idiotic your views were

And yet here we have an Israeli minister making a case for concentration camps in Gaza and do I see the same sort of reaction from you? No, not a dickie. Quill even dismisses the whole thing and bats it away as trivial and the sort of thing that people would say in private correspondence but would probably regret it later.  Quill ‘gets it’ you said earlier and I’m wondering why you are not responding to this in much the same way as you did on the other thread.
So your argument hinges on the view of one minister, score Irn, he now represents all Israel and all Israeli people does he? You see it is daft fallacy associations that people use on Muslims with claims like this and fall prey to doing the same school boy error

Would you mind telling me where you found that image you have thrown up comparing concentration camps and Gaza because I’d like to see the source that it came from?
Look up for yourself there is plenty showing Gaza doing very well:

http://www.counter-intifada.org/2011/06/unexpected-admissions-part-ii-one-mall-too-many/


The rest of your post is just basically C&P written by someone who lives in New York and the sort of thing that you complain about others doing so I take it that there will be no more said about that when you see it.


The rest of my post clearly shows how absurd your claims are and the fact as seen you have no response because to claim a comparison is daft and utterly stupid on your part,but hey ho. So Irn if Hamas who buys and importing rockets and other arms from Iran, decided to actually turn Gaza into a free enterprise instead of an Islamist tyranny built on hate, which the irony is it survives on the charity of Israel?
You know this daft comparison you claim, how it is a concentration camp, where Israel , which every day including when there is conflicts on, sends trucks laden with food and medicine into Gaza to prevent a humanitarian crisis that the Hamas as seen has created, I mean explain to me why they have not instead used the money of which they have had plenty to build up Gaza? It is a question you lefties ignore boundlessly, because if Hamas demilitarizes, there would be no conflict, there would actually be a road to peace

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:55 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:




And yet we see in both Syria and Iraq real genocide of groups of people and yet there are no protests from the left, why is that?
I mean you have both just argued there is more than ever a reason to do so to act against ISIS who are systematically butchering Innocent people.
Does this conflict matter less now to you and Sassy or is it really about the hatred of Israel, because as seen you have just proven the poor disparity at protesting where there is real genocide going on in Iraq and Syria?

Didge, something is being done about ISIS and if you didn't know that you have been seriously out of touch with what is going on.  Our government are doing something in assisting the Americans against ISIS by providing humanitarian aid to those fleeing from the terror and you will also find that British Tornado jet fighters will be in the region shortly backing up the US led fight to halt these nutters.

I absolutely support that action so please don't for a moment try to make out that I do not care. Yet in Israel we see our government still selling military hardware to them whilst calling for restraint. They have also sent NHS staff out to Gaza to help treating the wounded possibly caused by the very hardware we are supplying them with.
Israel has has every right to defend it's borders in a proportionate way against the rocket attacks and they have a thriving defence industry of their own that is more than capable of doing that.

Really something is being done, only now is something being done and what did you and other lefties do to protest?
Fuck all, it shows the absurdity of your claims and how they are utterly hypocritical it also shows that there is a real crisis in Ira and not Palestine, which further proves how you and others get it wrong.
The fact is this crisis has been going on for months in Iraq and not once have we seen any call to protest, where real genocide has gone on for months, it proves that the view on Israel is hate based to protest and shows the hypocrisy by some on the left. As seen it has taken months for any action to happen


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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:04 am

Deluded as ever Didge and remember the reference to concentration camps were made by the author=, not me, and he clearly made the point that there was a difference in what the earlier concentration camps were and the the death camps they became.
And as I expected there has been no reaction in any to the Israeli ministers concentration camp statements and obviously no desire to pull Quill up on the way he just tossed it aside as pretty much nothing. That' what I expected and that's what I got which leads me to the conclusion that you are not even near even handed on the situation in Gaza Your mask slipped ages ago and it shows even more now with your latest offerings.
Can't see that image in the link you gave me. Can I have the actual source please.

The Golan Heights.

http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-grants-golan-heights-oil-license-2013-2

Oh dear.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:07 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:




And yet we see in both Syria and Iraq real genocide of groups of people and yet there are no protests from the left, why is that?
I mean you have both just argued there is more than ever a reason to do so to act against ISIS who are systematically butchering Innocent people.
Does this conflict matter less now to you and Sassy or is it really about the hatred of Israel, because as seen you have just proven the poor disparity at protesting where there is real genocide going on in Iraq and Syria?

Didge, something is being done about ISIS and if you didn't know that you have been seriously out of touch with what is going on.  Our government are doing something in assisting the Americans against ISIS by providing humanitarian aid to those fleeing from the terror and you will also find that British Tornado jet fighters will be in the region shortly backing up the US led fight to halt these nutters.

I absolutely support that action so please don't for a moment try to make out that I do not care. Yet in Israel we see our government still selling military hardware to them whilst calling for restraint. They have also sent NHS staff out to Gaza to help treating the wounded possibly caused by the very hardware we are supplying them with.
Israel has has every right to defend it's borders in a proportionate way against the rocket attacks and they have a thriving defence industry of their own that is more than capable of doing that.

Really something is being done, only now is something being done and what did you and other lefties do to protest?
Fuck all, it shows the absurdity of your claims and how they are utterly hypocritical it also shows that there is a real crisis in Ira and not Palestine, which further proves how you and others get it wrong.
The fact is this crisis has been going on for months in Iraq and not once have we seen any call to protest, where real genocide has gone on for months, it proves that the view on Israel is hate based to protest and shows the hypocrisy by some on the left. As seen it has taken months for any action to happen


Er Didge. Where were your protests and what were you doing doing over the past month or two whilst all this was going on?


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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:08 am

Lets have a look at what THE DEPUTY SPEAKER OF THE KNESSET actually said shall we:

Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset Moshe Feiglin's comments come after one of his far-right Knesset colleagues Ayelet Shaked previously called for the mothers of Hamas members to be targeted.

World Bulletin / News Desk

Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset and member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, Moshe Feiglin, has called for the use of concentration camps for the “conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.”

Sharing a plan for the destruction of Gaza in a letter addressed to Netanyahu on his Facebook page on August 1, Feiglin wrote “What is required now is that we internalize the fact that Oslo is finished, that this is our country – our country exclusively, including Gaza.”

Feiglin's comments come after one of his far-right Knesset colleagues Ayelet Shaked previously called for the mothers of Hamas members to be targeted.

In his letter, Feiglin urged Netanyahu to “turn Gaza into Jaffa, a flourishing Israeli city with a minimum number of hostile civilians,” in reference to a Palestinian coastal city that was ethnically cleansed by in 1948 and incorporated into present-day Israel.

He called for tent encampments where the Palestinian civilian population would be “concentrated” to be established along the Sinai border until relevant emigration destinations are determined, adding that the supply of electricity and water to the formerly populated areas will be disconnected while they are “shelled with maximum fire power” in order to destroy the civilian and military infrastructure of Hamas as well as its means of communication and of logistics.

“Those who insist on staying, if they can be proven to have no affiliation with Hamas, will be required to publicly sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel, and receive a blue ID card similar to that of the Arabs of East Jerusalem,” he said.

Feiglin, who in January blasted Netanyahu for allowing his son to date a non-Jew, or a 'Gentile', also caused uproar among Palestinians when he participated in a raid on the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Islam's third holiest site, in East Jerusalem in March.

http://www.worldbulletin.net/world/141870/israeli-official-calls-for-concentration-camps-in-gaza

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:09 am

Sassy wrote:Lets have a look at what THE DEPUTY SPEAKER OF THE KNESSET actually said shall we:

Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset Moshe Feiglin's comments come after one of his far-right Knesset colleagues Ayelet Shaked previously called for the mothers of Hamas members to be targeted.

World Bulletin / News Desk

Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset and member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, Moshe Feiglin, has called for the use of concentration camps for the “conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.”

Sharing a plan for the destruction of Gaza in a letter addressed to Netanyahu on his Facebook page on August 1, Feiglin wrote “What is required now is that we internalize the fact that Oslo is finished, that this is our country – our country exclusively, including Gaza.”

Feiglin's comments come after one of his far-right Knesset colleagues Ayelet Shaked previously called for the mothers of Hamas members to be targeted.

In his letter, Feiglin urged Netanyahu to “turn Gaza into Jaffa, a flourishing Israeli city with a minimum number of hostile civilians,” in reference to a Palestinian coastal city that was ethnically cleansed by in 1948 and incorporated into present-day Israel.

He called for tent encampments where the Palestinian civilian population would be “concentrated” to be established along the Sinai border until relevant emigration destinations are determined, adding that the supply of electricity and water to the formerly populated areas will be disconnected while they are “shelled with maximum fire power” in order to destroy the civilian and military infrastructure of Hamas as well as its means of communication and of logistics.

“Those who insist on staying, if they can be proven to have no affiliation with Hamas, will be required to publicly sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel, and receive a blue ID card similar to that of the Arabs of East Jerusalem,” he said.

Feiglin, who in January blasted Netanyahu for allowing his son to date a non-Jew, or a 'Gentile', also caused uproar among Palestinians when he participated in a raid on the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Islam's third holiest site, in East Jerusalem in March.

http://www.worldbulletin.net/world/141870/israeli-official-calls-for-concentration-camps-in-gaza

Nail head

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:09 am

Irn Bru wrote:Deluded as ever Didge and remember the reference to concentration camps were made by the author=, not me, and he clearly made the point that there was a difference in what the earlier concentration camps were and the the death camps they became.
And as I expected there has been no reaction in any to the Israeli ministers concentration camp statements and obviously no desire to pull Quill up on the way he just tossed it aside as pretty much nothing. That' what I expected and that's what I got which leads me to the conclusion that you are not even near even handed on the situation in Gaza Your mask slipped ages ago and it shows even more now with your latest offerings.
Can't see that image in the link you gave me. Can I have the actual source please.

The Golan Heights.

http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-grants-golan-heights-oil-license-2013-2

Oh dear.


Hilarious, is that all you have one link, where Israel has no authority to authorize any such exploration?

Oh dear, you best try again.
So one Minister, is that all you have, shall I post countless Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranians, all calling for the extermination of Jews in Israel?
Is that what you want to play, because you will lose badly and it is a poor argument because as seen it is the views of some people not all.
What about Quill?
You not big enough to debate him, you nee me to step in?
Best you fight you own arguments, is quite funny seeing you struggle with him

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:12 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:

Really something is being done, only now is something being done and what did you and other lefties do to protest?
Fuck all, it shows the absurdity of your claims and how they are utterly hypocritical it also shows that there is a real crisis in Ira and not Palestine, which further proves how you and others get it wrong.
The fact is this crisis has been going on for months in Iraq and not once have we seen any call to protest, where real genocide has gone on for months, it proves that the view on Israel is hate based to protest and shows the hypocrisy by some on the left. As seen it has taken months for any action to happen


Er Didge. Where were your protests and what were you doing doing over the past month or two whilst all this was going on?


I am not the one calling for any protests though am I on anything, hilarious again, it is you and other hypocritical lefties being show up for how you are selective over what you protest, where as seen there is a far greater crisis going on in both Syria and Iraq
Talk about a copout response.

Try again

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:14 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:

Really something is being done, only now is something being done and what did you and other lefties do to protest?
Fuck all, it shows the absurdity of your claims and how they are utterly hypocritical it also shows that there is a real crisis in Ira and not Palestine, which further proves how you and others get it wrong.
The fact is this crisis has been going on for months in Iraq and not once have we seen any call to protest, where real genocide has gone on for months, it proves that the view on Israel is hate based to protest and shows the hypocrisy by some on the left. As seen it has taken months for any action to happen


Er Didge. Where were your protests and what were you doing doing over the past month or two whilst all this was going on?


Yea, what marches did he instigate, what letters to MPs did he write, where was he protesting? He was doing what all of us were, thinking how horrible it was and sitting frustrated, knowing the only peoplle who could do anything about it Cameron and Obama if they chose to arm the Kurds. However, in the case of Israel/Gaza, we can do something about it by not buying Israeli goods etc and sending aid to Gaza. Which we are doing, in droves, and which DEC (Distasters Emergency Committee) have done on TV and received an amazing responce.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:14 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:Deluded as ever Didge and remember the reference to concentration camps were made by the author=, not me, and he clearly made the point that there was a difference in what the earlier concentration camps were and the the death camps they became.
And as I expected there has been no reaction in any to the Israeli ministers concentration camp statements and obviously no desire to pull Quill up on the way he just tossed it aside as pretty much nothing. That' what I expected and that's what I got which leads me to the conclusion that you are not even near even handed on the situation in Gaza Your mask slipped ages ago and it shows even more now with your latest offerings.
Can't see that image in the link you gave me. Can I have the actual source please.

The Golan Heights.

http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-grants-golan-heights-oil-license-2013-2

Oh dear.


Hilarious, is that all you have one link, where Israel has no authority to authorize any such exploration?

Oh dear, you best try again.
So one Minister, is that all you have, shall I post countless Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranians, all calling for the extermination of Jews in Israel?
Is that what you want to play, because you will lose badly and it is a poor argument because as seen it is the views of some people not all.
What about Quill?
You not big enough to debate him, you nee me to step in?
Best you fight you own arguments, is quite funny seeing you struggle with him

It was reported in the FT. Isn't that good enough for you?

It was you that brought Quill into the discussion by saying that he 'gets it' so don't blame me for bringing up his views - views that you are obviously not prepared to take on in the same way you did with the author who mentioned concentration camps.

You're getting angry again.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:17 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:


Hilarious, is that all you have one link, where Israel has no authority to authorize any such exploration?

Oh dear, you best try again.
So one Minister, is that all you have, shall I post countless Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranians, all calling for the extermination of Jews in Israel?
Is that what you want to play, because you will lose badly and it is a poor argument because as seen it is the views of some people not all.
What about Quill?
You not big enough to debate him, you nee me to step in?
Best you fight you own arguments, is quite funny seeing you struggle with him

It was reported in the FT. Isn't that good enough for you?

It was you that brought Quill into the discussion by saying that he 'gets it' so don't blame me for bringing up his views - views that you are obviously not prepared to take on in the same way you did  with the author who mentioned concentration camps.

You're getting angry again.

I suggest you read your own article again.
He does get it right, very much so on his views, points as seen you are not able to counter them, which I find most amusing.
Your infantile attempts to goad me make me laugh, as this is all you can counter with views on me.
Bless, you need a cuddle mate ha ha

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:19 am

Sassy wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:

Er Didge. Where were your protests and what were you doing doing over the past month or two whilst all this was going on?


Yea, what marches did he instigate, what letters to MPs did he write, where was he protesting?   He was doing what all of us were, thinking how horrible it was and sitting frustrated, knowing the only peoplle who could do anything about it Cameron and Obama if they chose to arm the Kurds.   However, in the case of Israel/Gaza, we can do something about it by not buying Israeli goods etc and sending aid to Gaza.   Which we are doing, in droves, and which DEC (Distasters Emergency Committee) have done on TV and received an amazing responce.


I do not need to do anything because I am not protesting against Israel, I am not hypocritical on protesting which is the point you miss, it proves beyond doubt some of you lefties are nothing but Jew haters and luckily some of us are against such poor racism and will stand against antisemitism

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Irn Bru on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:24 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:


Hilarious, is that all you have one link, where Israel has no authority to authorize any such exploration?

Oh dear, you best try again.
So one Minister, is that all you have, shall I post countless Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranians, all calling for the extermination of Jews in Israel?
Is that what you want to play, because you will lose badly and it is a poor argument because as seen it is the views of some people not all.
What about Quill?
You not big enough to debate him, you nee me to step in?
Best you fight you own arguments, is quite funny seeing you struggle with him

It was reported in the FT. Isn't that good enough for you?

It was you that brought Quill into the discussion by saying that he 'gets it' so don't blame me for bringing up his views - views that you are obviously not prepared to take on in the same way you did  with the author who mentioned concentration camps.

You're getting angry again.

I suggest you read your own article again.
He does get it right, very much so on his views, points as seen you are not able to counter them, which I find most amusing.
Your infantile attempts to goad me make me laugh, as this is all you can counter with views on me.
Bless, you need a cuddle mate ha ha

Are you saying that the Israeli minister has got it right or that Quill is right to dismiss it as just something trivial to be discarded as if it didn't matter? Which is it.

I'm not goading you Didge, I'm just looking for consistency in your arguments - something that is sadly lacking.

I'll pass on the cuddle thanks. Have to go for now old bean as our fridge freezer has packed in and the milk has gone off and I have an engineer on the way but I'll check in later to see if you have managed to find the courage to take on the views of the Israeli minister. Please don't let me down

 Smile 


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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:24 am

Didge wrote:
Sassy wrote:

Yea, what marches did he instigate, what letters to MPs did he write, where was he protesting?   He was doing what all of us were, thinking how horrible it was and sitting frustrated, knowing the only peoplle who could do anything about it Cameron and Obama if they chose to arm the Kurds.   However, in the case of Israel/Gaza, we can do something about it by not buying Israeli goods etc and sending aid to Gaza.   Which we are doing, in droves, and which DEC (Distasters Emergency Committee) have done on TV and received an amazing responce.


I do not need to do anything because I am not protesting against Israel, I am not hypocritical on protesting which is the point you miss, it proves beyond doubt some of you lefties are nothing but Jew haters and luckily some of us are against such poor racism and will stand against antisemitism

So basically, you won't complain about civilians anywhere getting killed, but you will complain if other complain about civilians getting killed.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:27 am

Sassy wrote:
Didge wrote:


I do not need to do anything because I am not protesting against Israel, I am not hypocritical on protesting which is the point you miss, it proves beyond doubt some of you lefties are nothing but Jew haters and luckily some of us are against such poor racism and will stand against antisemitism

So basically, you won't complain about civilians anywhere getting killed, but you will complain if other complain about civilians getting killed.

People die daily world over and little is said or done by many people, and i know my words will have no affect, unless governments are forced to change, hence why I am not hypocritical to claim to change something as you are. If you advocate protests as you do then you protests against all conflicts and as seen there has been a far worse humanitarian crisis going on, and not a peep out of some of you lefties about it. It proves more than anything there is some real hate based perceptions of Israel and Jews.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:31 am

Didge wrote:
Sassy wrote:

So basically, you won't complain about civilians anywhere getting killed, but you will complain if other complain about civilians getting killed.

People die daily world over and little is said or done by many people, and i know my words will have no affect, unless governments are forced to change, hence why I am not hypocritical to claim to change something as you are. If you advocate protests as you do then you protests against all conflicts and as seen there has been a far worse humanitarian crisis going on, and not a peep out of some of you lefties about it. It proves more than anything there is some real hate based perceptions of Israel and Jews.


So basically you are a sit on your arse kind of bloke, who will complain about anyone who feels strongly about kids being killed and actually tries to do something about it in an area they think they can make a difference in.   So what does that make you?


BTW, already written to my MP about sending aid to the Kurds, as I did about Gaza, given what I could to DEC for Gaza, if they do one to help those that ISIS has left destitute I'll try and give to that as well. Write on behalf of Amnesty International about all kinds of problems in many areas and although I might not be well enough to march anymore I find ways of helping as many injustices as I possibly can. You just moan about people protesting and say they should protest about something else while sitting back and doing nothing about anything.


Last edited by Sassy on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:33 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:

I suggest you read your own article again.
He does get it right, very much so on his views, points as seen you are not able to counter them, which I find most amusing.
Your infantile attempts to goad me make me laugh, as this is all you can counter with views on me.
Bless, you need a cuddle mate ha ha

Are you saying that the Israeli minister has got it right or that Quill is right to dismiss it as just something trivial to be discarded as if it didn't matter? Which is it.

I'm not goading you Didge, I'm just looking for consistency in your arguments - something that is sadly lacking.

I'll pass on the cuddle thanks. Have to go for now old bean as our fridge freezer has packed in and the milk has gone off and I have an engineer on the way but I'll check in later to see if you have managed to find the courage to take on the views of the Israeli minister. Please don't let me down

 Smile 


Quill has got it right and again the views of one minister who wants to remove people is just one person where again your argument hinges on one out of 700 Parliament members, where as stated I can supply countless Hamas leaders, Iranian etc, calling for the extermination of the Jews. It shows your argument lacks any merit, one person does not nor does it happen here or many places enact a wish they have. So lets go over his views then shall we?
Do I agree with his views, partly, he wishes to take out the Hamas extremists, I have no issue with that, he wants to remove people who are anti Israel, nope I do not agree with that.
So there you have my views, what about your views to the many calling for the extermination of the Jews, where there is countless who have called for this?
You see this is why your argument falls flat

Thus you hinge on a poor point as seen

I think you are just getting pissed, because I am easily able to quash your arguments.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:36 am

Sassy wrote:
Didge wrote:

People die daily world over and little is said or done by many people, and i know my words will have no affect, unless governments are forced to change, hence why I am not hypocritical to claim to change something as you are. If you advocate protests as you do then you protests against all conflicts and as seen there has been a far worse humanitarian crisis going on, and not a peep out of some of you lefties about it. It proves more than anything there is some real hate based perceptions of Israel and Jews.


So basically you are a sit on your arse kind of bloke, who will complain about anyone who feels strongly about kids being killed and actually tries to do something about it in an area they think they can make a difference in.   So what does that make you?    

No I am the kind of bloke that looks out for people I know, like my family and friends, because as seen there is nothing I can do about many conflicts and murders that go on around the world, that is the reality. I give money to charities, to help. Now you can kid yourself that you can do something but even all your efforts amount to nothing, that is the reality of your protests.
So I am very helpful to people here who need me, I can make no difference to a conflict elsewhere, you just will not accept that reality

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:36 am

One man who is a member of parliament, a speaker in the parliament and a member of the ruling party.   Not just some odd soul sat at the back talking about stuff no-one else does.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:38 am

Didge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:

Are you saying that the Israeli minister has got it right or that Quill is right to dismiss it as just something trivial to be discarded as if it didn't matter? Which is it.

I'm not goading you Didge, I'm just looking for consistency in your arguments - something that is sadly lacking.

I'll pass on the cuddle thanks. Have to go for now old bean as our fridge freezer has packed in and the milk has gone off and I have an engineer on the way but I'll check in later to see if you have managed to find the courage to take on the views of the Israeli minister. Please don't let me down

 Smile 


Quill has got it right and again the views of one minister who wants to remove people is just one person where again your argument hinges on one out of 700 Parliament members, where as stated I can supply countless Hamas leaders, Iranian etc, calling for the extermination of the Jews. It shows your argument lacks any merit, one person does not nor does it happen here or many places enact a wish they have. So lets go over his views then shall we?
Do I agree with his views, partly, he wishes to take out the Hamas extremists, I have no issue with that, he wants to remove people who are anti Israel, nope I do not agree with that.
So there you have my views, what about your views to the many calling for the extermination of the Jews, where there is countless who have called for this?
You see this is why your argument falls flat

Thus you hinge on a poor point as seen

I think you are just getting pissed, because I am easily able to quash your arguments.


Thats what you always say when you have been shown up, been seen through so many times. How can anyone get pissed at you when you are obviously apathetic and don't give a damn about anyone, anywhere as long as you are ok.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:41 am

Sassy wrote:One man who is a member of parliament, a speaker in the parliament and a member of the ruling party.   Not just some odd soul sat at the back talking about stuff no-one else does.

And how many Hamas authority figures have called for the extermination of Jews and yet you back Hamas, a terrorist Islamist party.
I am though against extremist Zionists and as seen i do not agree with his views, but have no issue with him wanting to take out extremists, who would?

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:42 am

Sassy wrote:
Didge wrote:

Quill has got it right and again the views of one minister who wants to remove people is just one person where again your argument hinges on one out of 700 Parliament members, where as stated I can supply countless Hamas leaders, Iranian etc, calling for the extermination of the Jews. It shows your argument lacks any merit, one person does not nor does it happen here or many places enact a wish they have. So lets go over his views then shall we?
Do I agree with his views, partly, he wishes to take out the Hamas extremists, I have no issue with that, he wants to remove people who are anti Israel, nope I do not agree with that.
So there you have my views, what about your views to the many calling for the extermination of the Jews, where there is countless who have called for this?
You see this is why your argument falls flat

Thus you hinge on a poor point as seen

I think you are just getting pissed, because I am easily able to quash your arguments.


Thats what you always say when you have been shown up, been seen through so many times.   How can anyone get pissed at you when you are obviously apathetic and don't give a damn about anyone, anywhere as long as you are ok.


Hilarious, anything else you want to spit your dummy out over with yet more points about me and not the debate?

take your time

They claim the right are hateful, well as seen, you see the best hate from within some on the left

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:45 am

Didge wrote:
Sassy wrote:One man who is a member of parliament, a speaker in the parliament and a member of the ruling party.   Not just some odd soul sat at the back talking about stuff no-one else does.

And how many Hamas authority figures have called for the extermination of Jews and yet you back Hamas, a terrorist Islamist party.
I am though against extremist Zionists and as seen i do not agree with his views, but have no issue with him wanting to take out extremists, who would?

He didn't stop at Hamas read it again:

   Lets have a look at what THE DEPUTY SPEAKER OF THE KNESSET actually said shall we:

   Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset Moshe Feiglin's comments come after one of his far-right Knesset colleagues Ayelet Shaked previously called for the mothers of Hamas members to be targeted.

   World Bulletin / News Desk

   Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset and member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, Moshe Feiglin, has called for the use of concentration camps for the “conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.”

   Sharing a plan for the destruction of Gaza in a letter addressed to Netanyahu on his Facebook page on August 1, Feiglin wrote “What is required now is that we internalize the fact that Oslo is finished, that this is our country – our country exclusively, including Gaza.”

   Feiglin's comments come after one of his far-right Knesset colleagues Ayelet Shaked previously called for the mothers of Hamas members to be targeted.

   In his letter, Feiglin urged Netanyahu to “turn Gaza into Jaffa, a flourishing Israeli city with a minimum number of hostile civilians,” in reference to a Palestinian coastal city that was ethnically cleansed by in 1948 and incorporated into present-day Israel.

   He called for tent encampments where the Palestinian civilian population would be “concentrated” to be established along the Sinai border until relevant emigration destinations are determined, adding that the supply of electricity and water to the formerly populated areas will be disconnected while they are “shelled with maximum fire power” in order to destroy the civilian and military infrastructure of Hamas as well as its means of communication and of logistics.

   “Those who insist on staying, if they can be proven to have no affiliation with Hamas, will be required to publicly sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel, and receive a blue ID card similar to that of the Arabs of East Jerusalem,” he said.

   Feiglin, who in January blasted Netanyahu for allowing his son to date a non-Jew, or a 'Gentile', also caused uproar among Palestinians when he participated in a raid on the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Islam's third holiest site, in East Jerusalem in March.

   http://www.worldbulletin.net/world/141870/israeli-official-calls-for-concentration-camps-in-gaza

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:48 am

Didge wrote:
Sassy wrote:


Thats what you always say when you have been shown up, been seen through so many times.   How can anyone get pissed at you when you are obviously apathetic and don't give a damn about anyone, anywhere as long as you are ok.


Hilarious, anything else you want to spit your dummy out over with yet more points about me and not the debate?

take your time

They claim the right are hateful, well as seen, you see the best hate from within some on the left


Back to your usual phrases when you have been shown up. Getting boring now. Your lack of intelligence is only exceeded by your apathy at what is happening to children, literally being blown limb from limb.

And apparently, people who object to that are seen as hateful in your eyes. Ah well Didgelet, takes all kinds to make a world.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:50 am

Sassy wrote:
Didge wrote:

And how many Hamas authority figures have called for the extermination of Jews and yet you back Hamas, a terrorist Islamist party.
I am though against extremist Zionists and as seen i do not agree with his views, but have no issue with him wanting to take out extremists, who would?

He didn't stop at Hamas read it again:

   Lets have a look at what THE DEPUTY SPEAKER OF THE KNESSET actually said shall we:

   Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset Moshe Feiglin's comments come after one of his far-right Knesset colleagues Ayelet Shaked previously called for the mothers of Hamas members to be targeted.

   World Bulletin / News Desk

   Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Knesset and member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, Moshe Feiglin, has called for the use of concentration camps for the “conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.”

   Sharing a plan for the destruction of Gaza in a letter addressed to Netanyahu on his Facebook page on August 1, Feiglin wrote “What is required now is that we internalize the fact that Oslo is finished, that this is our country – our country exclusively, including Gaza.”

   Feiglin's comments come after one of his far-right Knesset colleagues Ayelet Shaked previously called for the mothers of Hamas members to be targeted.

   In his letter, Feiglin urged Netanyahu to “turn Gaza into Jaffa, a flourishing Israeli city with a minimum number of hostile civilians,” in reference to a Palestinian coastal city that was ethnically cleansed by in 1948 and incorporated into present-day Israel.

   He called for tent encampments where the Palestinian civilian population would be “concentrated” to be established along the Sinai border until relevant emigration destinations are determined, adding that the supply of electricity and water to the formerly populated areas will be disconnected while they are “shelled with maximum fire power” in order to destroy the civilian and military infrastructure of Hamas as well as its means of communication and of logistics.

   “Those who insist on staying, if they can be proven to have no affiliation with Hamas, will be required to publicly sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel, and receive a blue ID card similar to that of the Arabs of East Jerusalem,” he said.

   Feiglin, who in January blasted Netanyahu for allowing his son to date a non-Jew, or a 'Gentile', also caused uproar among Palestinians when he participated in a raid on the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Islam's third holiest site, in East Jerusalem in March.

   http://www.worldbulletin.net/world/141870/israeli-official-calls-for-concentration-camps-in-gaza



A member of the governing Likud party and a long-time rival of its chairman, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Moshe Feiglin currently serves as the Knesset's (Israeli parliament) deputy speaker. An advocate of personal liberty and self-identified libertarian on domestic policy, he's also a hawk who makes headlines with his hard-line stance toward Palestinians.

Feiglin has been vocal supporter of Israel's current military operation in Gaza and recently advocated turning Gaza into a new Yafo, a peaceful enclave in the southern part of Tel Aviv, largely inhabited by Israeli Arabs.

"There are two factors," Feiglin tells me about the conflict in Gaza. "Historically, Gaza has always part of Israel. There's no difference between Gaza and Yafo, for example, except that Yafo was recaptured in 1948. The whole discussion should be about rightness, not about occupation. Gaza belongs to the Jews."

In an open letter to PM Netanyahu, Feiglin argued for the killing of Hamas fighters and their supporters. Following the operation, hostile Palestinian families would be deported to a number of countries, first passing through tent encampments near the border with Egypt. After the operation Gaza would become a "flourishing Israeli city with a minimum of hostile residents," Feiglin wrote.

Feiglin's solution sparked outrage in Israel and abroad. In response, Feiglin told CNN's Wolf Blitzer that he's not advocating for genocide, but for removal. Feiglin's views seem to be rooted in the idea that to plant the seeds of a liberal order you must remove Hamas and those who fight Israel and bank on those who accept Israel's presence.

Whether this is feasible morally or operationally is another matter.

Controversial and unique

Indeed, Feiglin, a regular guest on Israeli TV and an eloquent and calm orator, is commonly perceived as one of the more controversial figures in Israeli politics. Politically he is a mixed bag, accompanying his hawkishness with strong emphasis on personal liberty within the state of Israel.

His brand of Orthodox Judaism coupled with a strong belief in domestic freedom within the rule of law, stand out among his peers on the right. For example, Feiglin has been an advocate of legalizing marijuana and ending U.S. aid to Israel. He also advocates ending the military draft, and calls for "free market capitalism tempered by charity."

When high-profile politicians such as Danny Danon and foreign minister Avigdor Liberman pushed for a loyalty oath or a biometric ID, Feiglin lamented that such laws would endanger the rights of the individual.

In fact, Feiglin has warned that "whoever thinks that the state is the supreme value edges uncomfortably close to fascism."

Perhaps the guiding principle of Feiglin's domestic political philosophy is best encapsulated by a Ralph Waldo Emerson quote that can be found on his office wall in the Knesset: "Good men mustn't obey the laws too well."

"The quote applies to everything," Feiglin assures me. "Every responsible citizen should understand that we need laws, but on the other hand the country's political leadership should know that laws are not a religion. And most laws we simply don't keep so well."

Feiglin's positions may seem confusing because the Israeli political milieu, while deeply tribal, is broadly perceived—among pundits and constituents alike—as a battle between the right, seen as anti-Arab and religious, and the left, viewed as secular and pro-peace.

In addition to such simplified perceptions, politicians are defined and remembered for past indiscretions. In the eyes of Tel Aviv's left-leaning middle class, both Netanyahu and Feiglin are recalled for their opposition to the Oslo peace process of the 1990s.

However, now that even some of the chief architects of Oslo are speaking publicly against the peace process, Feiglin might find himself absolved of past sins while the antipathy towards Netanyahu runs deeper and is unlikely to change.

http://reason.com/archives/2014/08/10/can-moshe-feiglin-reconcile-libertariani


Now again I do not support all his views, but does he have the backing of the whole Parliment on his views?

No, it shows why your argument is poor to say the least but again you back Hamas, an Islamist terrorist organisation, at least I can choose to condemn his views, not sure how you can support a terrorist organisation that shots Palestinians out of hand with unfair mock trials. You see you ignore the countless times Hamas leaders have called for the extermination of the Jews, being as you are not under such a threat, you think not of what this may lead also to such poor views given back, based around defending themselves but here it is to the extreme.
See we can all posts articles, at least this is more balanced

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:52 am

Sassy wrote:
Didge wrote:


Hilarious, anything else you want to spit your dummy out over with yet more points about me and not the debate?

take your time

They claim the right are hateful, well as seen, you see the best hate from within some on the left


Back to your usual phrases when you have been shown up.   Getting boring now.   Your lack of intelligence is only exceeded by your apathy at what is happening to children, literally being blown limb from limb.

And apparently, people who object to that are seen as hateful in your eyes.   Ah well Didgelet, takes all kinds to make a world.


So bored you reply, showing a complete contradiction and also again you can only post about me, which shows you have nothing of worth or the slightest ounce of intelligence to even have a good debate with me, Irn can but you just make me laugh!

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:54 am

Didgelet dear, show me one post where I have backed Hamas, I have only ever talked about what is happening to the CIVILIAN population and what the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT are doing, not the Jewish people, and have complained about what is happening to the JEWISH peace group IN ISRAEL. Did a thread about the horrible things that are happening to them. They are the ones I have been in contact with for years, they are the ones protesting about what their GOVERNMENT is doing. You go back to your rocking chair so you can continue to be apathetic.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:56 am

Oh, BTW, do you want me to bring up all your posts where you came on threads just to attack me and not talk about the subject. There are so many of them dear.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:57 am

Sassy wrote:Didgelet dear, show me one post where I have backed Hamas, I have only ever talked about what is happening to the CIVILIAN population and what the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT are doing, not the Jewish people, and have complained about what is happening to the JEWISH peace group IN ISRAEL.   Did a thread about the horrible things that are happening to them.    They are the ones I have been in contact with for years, they are the ones protesting about what their GOVERNMENT is doing.   You go back to your rocking chair so you can continue to be apathetic.


Excellent so you agree hamas need to go for their to be peace then Stassi?
As it is Hamas that creates the civilian deaths, by placing Military instillation's within civilian areas. How they use funds to buy arms to attack Israel and yet do not allow access to the civilian population to use tunnels or build them bomb shelters. How they rule through a strict Islamic rule of law. How they should demilitarize and thus seek peace with Israel then?


So do you back hamas or not?

take your time Stassi

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:58 am

Sassy wrote:Oh, BTW, do you want me to bring up all your posts where you came on threads just to attack me and not talk about the subject.   There are so many of them dear.


Be my guest, I can find hundreds more where you have attacked me and countless others not debating, happy to make you look a right tit

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:01 am

Course you are Didge, now I have something constructive to do, and you obviously don't care about what is happening to anyone, you have said so, and you are now in your 'trying to be clever and failing miserably' mode, so see you later, when you can not care about lots of other things and moan about people who do. Ta ra chuck, have a nice day not caring.

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:05 am

Sassy wrote:Course you are Didge, now I have something constructive to do, and you obviously don't care about what is happening to anyone, you have said so, and you are now in your 'trying to be clever and failing miserably' mode, so see you later, when you can not care about lots of other things and moan about people who do.   Ta ra chuck, have a nice day not caring.

Ah the old guilt trip card being played, sorry does not work, this is a debate on view of a conflict and how you are exposed for hatred for Israel and hypocritical.
I care about a great many things, one of them is the survival of the Jews.

But amusing you use such poor debating skills yet again

Have fun

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by gerber on Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:18 am

I vividly remember the Saigon news coverage.........................And it did appear to change the world then.

As for the call for concentration camps I had a look at his face book. Then he had more than 2000 followers one day after posting. Goodness knows how many now. Israel is facing a political maelstrom. More and more are leaning to the right. Netty needs to keep them sweet to ensure being reelected.


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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:22 am

gerber wrote:I vividly remember the Saigon news coverage.........................And it did appear to change the world then.  

As for the call for concentration camps I had a look at his face book.  Then he had more than 2000 followers one day after posting.  Goodness knows how many now.  Israel is facing a political maelstrom.  More and more are leaning to the right.  Netty needs to keep them sweet to ensure being reelected.


Indeed Gerbs, but 'Nettie' has always been one of the most extreme of the Lukid party

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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

Post by Original Quill on Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:15 pm

Irn Bru wrote:I've explained to you why, Quill. They want the land for themselves and all at the expulsion of the Palestinian population not as a military buffer zone. You see, that's where your argument falls down because if it was a buffer zone between the Israeli settlements and the Palestinians then they wouldn't be building homes on it as that just moves the border further into the  West Bank and not further away from the Palestinians. Totally flawed and if that came from Didge then he has led you up the garden path.

We are beyond that point, Irn.  I’m asking a different question:  Without giving up my point that the government is not doing it, which department in the Israeli government do you allege is building these developments?  You say it's not being done by private means.  Well, which is it?

Irn Bru wrote:You didn't mention the concentration camp statements by the Israeli minister - the statements you tried to pass of as nothing more than something that might be said between some people corresponding during a time of war.

I did answer that.  Twice I have made the point that I thought that was wrong of him.

Irn Bru wrote:Another blogger made a connection between Gaza and  concentration camps and it was posted on this forum and Didge went absolutely ballistic. He was beside himself with fury stating he was absolutely disgusted that any such comments could be made yet I hear nothing from him about this other than maybe a whimper or two here and there. I'm just wondering if he will take issue with you on the casual way you have dismissed and swept aside these comments in the same way he did on that thread so I'll keep a watching brief on this to see if you will get the same reaction or whether this current round of mutual admiration will survive.

I'll keep a watching brief on this

Didge is passionate about the whole issue…and good for him.  It’s one to get passionate about.

You seem to be more concerned about the tone of my response, than the truth of it.  I am not Didge, much to my misfortune.  He cares about what he is writing, and he writes some very good things.  He hit the nail on the head what with posting the clip on why Israel occupies the land it does.  As you see, I have copied it and reposted it myself.

I don’t get upset.  I try to look at things dispassionately.  It’s a waste of my time to get personal.  I try to isolate the central core of an issue, and dispassionately ask questions that get to the answer.  

For example, I am asking one question right now.  What is at the core of the dispute between the Islamic world and Israel?    Everyone is hung up on the Hamas/Gaza aggression against Israel…and there are those who are trying to turn it around and accuse Israel back.  But that’s starting the race halfway down the racetrack.  Something went on before.  

That’s what I mean about “Truths and half truths Quill.”   You are only telling half the truth, if you begin with Hamas/Gaza’s attack on Israel.  It’s only half the history.  Consequently, you end up with only half-arguments.  More to the point, you are not getting to the core.  As I said in another post, you are playing ‘Wack-A-Mole.’

You see, the intemperate words of some Israeli minister somewhere, pale in comparison to the real question.  Why is this all happening?  Who doesn’t like what?  Hamas fires off missiles; Israel responds with the invasion; the whole world runs about like a bunch of wild banshees; nobody is in charge of the show.  Nobody even knows what is the question.

And—to repeat myself once again—because I like the points made there—all of this is just a prelude for the next round.  If we settle this crisis, we only catch our breath for the next crisis.  And it’s because no one is in charge of the show.

So, let’s have less noise, and more responsibility.  It seems to be de rigueur nowadays for Muslims to deny they ever said they want Israel to be driven into the sea.  http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2009/05/07/jews-driven-into-the-sea-at-last/   They disclaim that sentiment today, and on the surface, but don’t bet it won’t return if the US stops supporting Israel.  If Israel showed one ounce of weakness, anywhere, you can bet that you would hear it again.

In closing, let me borrow the words of the above cited web of Commentary:

Commentary wrote:There are those who will see this map as proof that a two-state solution is impossible. But if the Palestinians ever decide that they actually want to live in peace alongside Israel, there is little doubt — and as proven by past Israeli offers of statehood and territorial concessions to the Palestinians — such a state would easily come into existence. The obstacle to such a state is not the Jews who currently live in parts of the West Bank. It is that the Palestinians and the terror groups that lead them are less interested in a Palestinian state — no matter what its borders might be — than they are in continuing their war against Israel. The continued demand that any Palestinian state must be devoid of Jews and that small isolated Jewish communities inside the West Bank must be forcibly uprooted demonstrates their bad faith on the question of peaceful coexistence.

That's pretty much the way I see it. Someone over there wants it to go on and on and on...

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars

Someone is above the rule of law in America.
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Re: Warning, contains things that might upset you. Netanyahu boasting about Manipulating America and derailing Oslo peace process

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