The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

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Re: The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:37 pm

“Israel must withdraw from all the settlements and dismantle the wall within Palestinian territory.
Then, perhaps, we may at last see some justice for Palestinians.”

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At the end of 2010, our over 1,600 signatories included six rabbis; 110 professors (including five Fellows of the Royal Society and two fellows of the British Academy); 150 medical and academic doctors; several OBEs, CBEs and MBEs, six knights, one Member of Parliament and one member of the House of Lords.

The list includes Helen Bamber OBE, Prof Zygmunt Bauman, Sir Geoffrey Bindman, Rex Bloomstein, Sir Anthony Caro, Prof Stan Cohen, Jenny Diski, Moris Farhi MBE, Bella Freud, Stephen Fry, Prof Eric Hobsbawm, Dr Julian Huppert MP, Prof Mary Kaldor, Nicolas Kent, Beeban Kidron, Baroness Oona King, Prof Francesca Klug OBE, Mike Leigh, Miriam Margolyes OBE, Mike Marqusee, Dr Jonathan Miller, Rabbi Jeffrey Newman, Sophie Okonedo OBE, Prof Susie Orbach, Prof Jacqueline Rose FBA, Mike Rosen, Rabbi Elizabeth Tikvah Sarah, Alexei Sayle, Prof Lynne Segal, Will Self, Sir Antony Sher, Prof Avi Shlaim FBA, Gillian Slovo, Sir Tom Stoppard, Dame Janet Suzman and Zoë Wanamaker CBE

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Re: The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:41 pm

Max Blumenthal sums the situation up exactly as posted in SM's thread.

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Re: The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2014 1:53 pm

As a liberal Zionist, certain statements are expected from me at times like this, so let's get it out of the way:
1. The kidnap and murder of three Israeli teenagers was an abominable crime.

2. So was the kidnap and murder of a Palestinian teenager.

3. Palestinians have a right to a state of their own, secure in its own borders,

4. But so does Israel.

5. Hamas is a wholly malevolent organization who would be recognized as neo-Nazis if they happened to be white Christians.

6. The Israeli government, whatever my disagreements with it, is still a liberal democracy doing its best under highly adverse circumstances.

7. This doesn't mean that every innocent Palestinian killed isn't a tragedy, but...

8. War is war.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/war-is-war-why-i-stand-with-israel-9601001.html


This I found the most interesting point which shows how badly hypocritical people are:


A simple illustration: in the Hobbesian nightmare that is Bashar al-Assad's Syria, about 9,000 children have been killed since the civil war began in 2011. Nine thousand. That's the equivalent of a large British secondary school reduced to ashes every six months.

Forgive me if I'm merely being unobservant, but where is the international campaign against the Syrian regime? Is it hiding? Did campuses all over the world hold a “Syrian Genocide Week”, and I just wasn't paying attention?

I think not, somehow. This is not “criticism”, this is obsession.



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Re: The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:09 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Phildidge wrote:As a liberal Zionist, certain statements are expected from me at times like this, so let's get it out of the way:
1. The kidnap and murder of three Israeli teenagers was an abominable crime.

Agreed.

2. So was the kidnap and murder of a Palestinian teenager.

Agreed.

3. Palestinians have a right to a state of their own, secure in its own borders,

Israel don't agree on this. They want to splinter the West Bank into tiny settlements - so no borders

4. But so does Israel.

But the Israeli establishment want the whole West Bank and leave tiny settlements for Palestinians.

5. Hamas is a wholly malevolent organization who would be recognized as neo-Nazis if they happened to be white Christians.


You can say the same about those who back Natanyahu. Who have openly called for a Palestinian Holocaust.

6. The Israeli government, whatever my disagreements with it, is still a liberal democracy doing its best under highly adverse circumstances.

No. For reasons explained above. It may have been relatively more liberal under certain governments. But leaders like Barak still didn't want a 2 state solution with secure borders.

7. This doesn't mean that every innocent Palestinian killed isn't a tragedy, but...

8. War is war.

Those with the greatest power have a greater reponsibility.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/war-is-war-why-i-stand-with-israel-9601001.html


This I found the most interesting point which shows how badly hypocritical people are:


A simple illustration: in the Hobbesian nightmare that is Bashar al-Assad's Syria, about 9,000 children have been killed since the civil war began in 2011. Nine thousand. That's the equivalent of a large British secondary school reduced to ashes every six months.

Forgive me if I'm merely being unobservant, but where is the international campaign against the Syrian regime? Is it hiding? Did campuses all over the world hold a “Syrian Genocide Week”, and I just wasn't paying attention?

I think not, somehow. This is not “criticism”, this is obsession.



Read my reply above.


I have Zack, did you read this, which is my point showing that both sides are wrong and hence why only looking to one is wrong:







I have been writing about your conflict for more than three decades. Invariably, I find myself delving into the same themes time and again. The nature of the conflict remains the same. You coexist, and short of self-inflicted catastrophe, you are destined to coexist until the end of time. You must now choose to live in harmony and peace, or in self-consuming enmity and hate.

No Israeli or Palestinian child should ever die for a cause that defies reality and reason. Taking teens hostage and horrifically killing them in cold blood, or abducting a child and grisly burning him alive defies your religious beliefs and the basic tenets of your humanity.

Like beasts, the militant madmen among you creep in the shadows for their prey, to satisfy their lust for revenge and retribution. They disgrace you as a people and a nation, while poisoning the next generations with hostility and disdain, robbing them of their future and destroying the little hope left to live in harmony and peace.




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alon-benmeir/an-open-letter-to-the-isr_b_5578303.html

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Re: The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

Post by The Puzzler on Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:59 pm

It is Israel's Jewishness that offends the most, which is why there's never such a big fuss about Muslim oppression of other Muslims. Especially ISIS carving off thousands of Shia's heads, or the countless other sectarian Muslim killings, that's just a blip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini#Ties_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II
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Re: The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:01 pm

The Puzzler wrote:It is Israel's Jewishness that offends the most, which is why there's never such a big fuss about Muslim oppression of other Muslims. Especially ISIS carving off thousands of Shia's heads, or the countless other sectarian Muslim killings, that's just a blip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini#Ties_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II



Yet far many more Muslims signed up and fought and even died to defend nations not of their own in WW2 on the allied side.

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Re: The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

Post by The Puzzler on Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:16 pm

Phildidge wrote:
The Puzzler wrote:It is Israel's Jewishness that offends the most, which is why there's never such a big fuss about Muslim oppression of other Muslims. Especially ISIS carving off thousands of Shia's heads, or the countless other sectarian Muslim killings, that's just a blip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini#Ties_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II



Yet far many more Muslims signed up and fought and even died to defend nations not of their own in WW2 on the allied side.
Yes - but the links between Palestine and the Nazis cannot be ignored. It helps to explain why Israel is so defensive, if Palestine and other Arab countries had their way, Israel would be a glass carpark. At the end of the day Didge, we agree on this in that both sides need to seek reconciliation. Extremists like Sassy and SM are the reason the conflict rages on, neither Zionists nor Hamas supporters/Islamists want to accept any portion of blame.
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Re: The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:19 pm

The Puzzler wrote:
Phildidge wrote:



Yet far many more Muslims signed up and fought and even died to defend nations not of their own in WW2 on the allied side.
Yes - but the links between Palestine and the Nazis cannot be ignored. It helps to explain why Israel is so defensive, if Palestine and other Arab countries had their way, Israel would be a glass carpark.


No the only link is due to the Grand Muffti and even Jewish extremists were working for Admiral Canaris in Palestine.

Hamas is the problem within Palestine

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Re: The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

Post by The Puzzler on Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:23 pm

Phildidge wrote:
The Puzzler wrote:
Yes - but the links between Palestine and the Nazis cannot be ignored. It helps to explain why Israel is so defensive, if Palestine and other Arab countries had their way, Israel would be a glass carpark.


No the only link is due to the Grand Muffti and even Jewish extremists were working for Admiral Canaris in Palestine.

Hamas is the problem within Palestine
And one of the links you just quoted says that Hamas would be globally condemned as neo nazis if they were white Christians. Which is why it always amuses me that anyone who has issues with political Islam aka Islamism is labelled far right, when in actual fact islamic terror groups and islamofascist political entities have far more in common with Nazi ideology.
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Re: The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:38 pm

The Puzzler wrote:
Phildidge wrote:


No the only link is due to the Grand Muffti and even Jewish extremists were working for Admiral Canaris in Palestine.

Hamas is the problem within Palestine
And one of the links you just quoted says that Hamas would be globally condemned as neo nazis if they were white Christians. Which is why it always amuses me that anyone who has issues with political Islam aka Islamism is labelled far right, when in actual fact islamic terror groups and islamofascist political entities have far more in common with Nazi ideology.



Sorry disagree on that, completely different political extremism.
Hamas would be one of the few to the exception to this rule having a racial hatred, but again they do not claim Arab racial superiority, so there is little to link to Nazi ideology.

The sad part is at one point both the Arab Legion and the Palmach fought together for the British in the Middle East in WW2

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Re: The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:14 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Phildidge wrote:


I have Zack, did you read this, which is my point showing that both sides are wrong and hence why only looking to one is wrong:







I have been writing about your conflict for more than three decades. Invariably, I find myself delving into the same themes time and again. The nature of the conflict remains the same. You coexist, and short of self-inflicted catastrophe, you are destined to coexist until the end of time. You must now choose to live in harmony and peace, or in self-consuming enmity and hate.

No Israeli or Palestinian child should ever die for a cause that defies reality and reason. Taking teens hostage and horrifically killing them in cold blood, or abducting a child and grisly burning him alive defies your religious beliefs and the basic tenets of your humanity.

Like beasts, the militant madmen among you creep in the shadows for their prey, to satisfy their lust for revenge and retribution. They disgrace you as a people and a nation, while poisoning the next generations with hostility and disdain, robbing them of their future and destroying the little hope left to live in harmony and peace.




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alon-benmeir/an-open-letter-to-the-isr_b_5578303.html

Ok, so what would your final solution (no, not that kind) be? This is fundamentally about land. So let's start there. What would your borders look like, or what do you think they should look like?


No this is about peace and two nations living in peace, united in peace, for going the past problems, which started after one side went to war after becoming an independent nation.
I would choose the borders that were given in 1948, but this may be too difficult now due to demographic changes, so make what areas there are now into a nation.
What are you going to do about Hamas, and why are you not even concerned about Hamas?
I am very concerned at the Zionists also, which both these groups are preventing peace. You see in any conflict when you have two opposing extremist groups conflicts will continue and why casting blame on either side will not change anything, what will is people, both Palestinian and Jewish uniting to end the violence and hate

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Re: The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:34 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:You would have peace in 10 minutes if borders were resolved along the lines of 1948.

Changing borders to take into account current demographics is always going to be a problem. And always has been.

Who said I wasn't concerned by Hamas? But who controls them? That's why Israel making peace with Iran is critical. This will resolve the Hamas problem.

The extreme, hardcore Zionists will not be persuaded or stopped that easily. The resettlement of Gaza was just the tip of the iceberg. And Gaza wasn't even that religiously important to them. What do you think will happen if they give up large Chuncks of the West Bank? Maybe even East Jerusalem.


Come on lets face it the area is not that religiously important to the Palestinians Zack and that is the real problem here is religion in its literal form, where you will always find a problem.
It works both ways where Iran who has for years vowed to wipe out Israel, has to also work towards this peace and prove they also wish to want Israel to exist also, this has not exactly been forth coming has it
Again if the Jewish people stand up united against the Zionists it will happen, the same happen with people standing up to Apatheid in South Africa, so anything is possible. No retribution happened there to those who imposed apartheid, in fact what happened was reconciliation, which is needed here.
So again I am all for both seeking peace, blaming one or the other will accomplish nothing as has been the case for decades, but one thing is needed, is to unite on both sides, against both extremists

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Re: The Israeli aim? To destroy the 2-state solution

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:59 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Apart from East Jerusalem, you're right. There is no religious importance to the WB for the Palestinians. But there importance for the Zionists.

Irans rhetoric about Israel isn't as entrenched as you think. Diplomatic ties are already improving. Esp. With ISIS in the situation.


Yes but is that more to do with a threat to Shia Muslims than it is to do with any peace with Israel?
Iran and Saudi have always been at odds with each other, and both have clearly influenced groups in conflicts, so it is going to take more than just Iran to solve this issue with peace, hence I know it is going to be difficult.
As I say, the friendship maybe more about enemies enemy is my friend at this given moment!

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