Islamoprejudice & Anti-Semitism:

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ANTI-SEMITIC PROPAGANDA

Anti-Semitic propaganda maintained that:


—all Jews were responsible for the act of any Jew, e.g. “The murder of Ernst vom Rath did not slow legal measures aimed at solving the Jewish Problem, but rather sped them up. The Jews living in Germany had to pay a fine of a billion marks to discourage them from repeating the cowardly murder.” **

— Judaism was not a religion. “Argument 1: “You say that religion is a private matter. But you fight against the Jewish religion!” Counterargument: “Actually, the Jewish religion is nothing other than a doctrine to preserve the Jewish race.” (Adolf Hitler). “In resisting all government attempts to nationalize them, the Jews build a state within the state (Count Helmuth von Moltke). “To call this state a ‘religion’ was one of the cleverest tricks ever invented.” (Adolf Hitler). “From this first lie that Jewry is a religion, not a race, further lies inevitably follow.” (Adolf Hitler).”  **

— there was an International Jewish conspiracy to influence and then control governments, media,  the economy, etc.  **

— the Jews hated all non-Jews and they wanted to destroy the Gentiles and dominate the world **  Further “Whether or not there is an organized Jewish government recognized by all the Jews is less important that the fact that there is a unified and conscious Jewish desire for world power. This is proved by a variety of political events that are taking place in plain sight today.”  **

— due to inbreeding, Jews had more negative characteristics and passed on these negative characteristics to the next generation.  **

— a war against Judaism was a war against the devil **

— by distortions of the Torah and Talmud they claimed that Judaism teaches hatred **

— “The goal of the Jew is to make himself the ruler of humanity. Wherever he comes, he destroys works of culture. He is not a creative spirit, rather a destructive spirit.”  **  “The struggle for world domination will be fought entirely between us, between Germans and Jews.  All else is facade and illusion. Behind England stands Israel, and behind France, and behind the United States.  Even when we have driven the Jew out of Germany, he remains our world enemy.”  Adolf Hitler **

— “Nearly all major inventions were made by Aryans.”  The Jews had no real creativity **   “Wherever Jewry has appeared, it has never built anything. It has always and everywhere destroyed or torn down, sucking others dry to fill itself. From the days of the Romans to our day, Jewry in every century, in every people, was and remained a foreign body, a destroyer of real and ideal values, a denier of any upward progress, a plague for body and soul. It sneaks in through deceit and treachery, trickery and slyness, murder and assault, understanding how to establish itself.”  **

— a good Jew could not be a good German, that it was impossible for a Jew to honestly say “I am a “good German” and a “decent Jew”! Only a Jew has the insolence to make such a claim. I answer it only to reach the public and finally dispatch the absurd notion of the “decent Jew.” The fable of the “decent Jew” is not a German fable that has been handed down by our people and therefore something with educational value, but rather it is a shameless lie designed to lull the host people to sleep and appeal to hysterical weaklings.”  **  And further “And you think you can be a “good German”! True, you do speak German, just as your racial comrades in other countries speak English, French, Spanish, and Polish, but you are no more a German than they are Englishmen, Frenchmen, Spaniards, or Poles, since Jews are a foreign body in every people.” **

—  “Jewish law enjoins or permits Jews to murder non-Jews whenever feasible” **

—  “Jews are permitted to lie without moral or religious compunction” **

—  “Judaism condones the sexual molestation of young girls” ** “The Jewish youth lies in wait for hours on end….spying on the unsuspicious German girl he plans to seduce….he wants to contaminate her blood and remove her from the bosom of her own people. The Jew hates the white race and wants to lower its cultural level so that the Jews might dominate.” - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf **

—  there was no way to tell the true nature of Jews as they presented a false face. **

—  Jews were uniquely violent and untrustworthy compared to all the other peoples of the world. **

— Jews could not serve loyally in the military of Germany, and they were removed. **

— anti-Semitism was a reasonable response to a clear and present danger.  **  If Jews raised the issue of anti-Semitism they were doing it for devious reasons.  The Jewish people, once only tolerated, knew how to raise a hue and cry about discrimination and persecution, winning the sympathy of the world for the “poor Jews.” They increasingly infiltrated deep within our national organism, growing to have power over every single area of our national life. **

— there was a “Jewish problem” and that any measures taken against the Jews were reasonable and defensive.  **

— Jews are a “disease” infecting any nation they inhabit.  “For us, it is a problem of whether our nation can ever recover its health, whether the Jewish spirit can ever really be eradicated.  Don’t be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus.  Don’t think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis.  This Jewish contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Jew, has been banished from our midst.”  Adolph Hitler **  “Each Jew individually, and Jewry as a whole, is without a home. Jewry undermines every people and every state that it infiltrates. It feeds as a parasite and a culture-killing worm in the host people. It grows and grows like weeds in the state, the community, and the family and infests the blood of humanity everywhere.  In brief, that is the pestilential nature of Jewry, against which every people, every state, every nation must, should, and wants to defend itself if it does not want to be the victim of this bloody plague.”  **







ANTI-Muslim/ISLAMOPHOBIC PROPAGANDA


“Islam constitutes a threat to the world at large.”  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

When Shi’ite Muslims were persecuted by Sunnis, they developed the doctrine of taqiyya, or concealment: They could lie about what they believed, denying aspects of their faith that were offensive to Sunnis…Closely related to this is the doctrine of kitman, or mental reservation, which is telling the truth, but not the whole truth, with an intention to mislead…Remember that the next time you see a Muslim spokesman on television professing his friendship with non-Muslim Americans and his loyalty to the United States. Of course, he may be telling the truth–but he may not be telling the whole truth or he may be just lying.  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

There are “many elements of traditional and mainstream Islam that are at variance with our system of government, our Constitution, and our entire way of life.”  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“There is no reliable way to distinguish a “moderate” Muslim who rejects the jihad ideology and Islamic supremacism from a “radical” Muslim who holds such ideas, even if he isn’t acting upon them at the moment.”  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“The misbegotten term “Islamo-fascism” is wholly redundant: Islam itself is a kind of fascism that achieves its full and proper form only when it assumes the powers of the state.” Robert Spencer,AFDI, SIOA, SION  

“There is no distinction in the American Muslim community between peaceful Muslims and jihadists.” Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“(Islam) is the only major world religion with a developed doctrine and tradition of warfare against unbelievers.”  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“Islam is of the devil” Rev. Terry Jones

“Islam is evil” Rev. Franklin Graham

“There is no escaping the unfortunate fact that Muslim government employees in law enforcement, the military and the diplomatic corps need to be watched for connections to terrorism.”  Rev. Franklin Graham

“Nearly all (emphasis added) of the Islamic organizations in the United States that define themselves as religiously or culturally Muslim in character have, today, been totally captured or dominated by radical fundamentalist elements…”  Steven Emerson

“U.S. Muslims are strategically aligning with LGBT people as part of their jihadist campaign to subjugate the West.”  Joseph Farrah, WND

”Devout Muslims should be prohibited from military service. Would Patton have recruited Nazis into his army?”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

Good Muslims lie to advance Islam, It’s the law. Atlas readers often hear me refer to taqiya - lies to advance Islam.” Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

I believe that “Al-Qaeda is a manifestation of devout Islam ... It is Islam.”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“Arabic is not just another language like French or Italian, it is the spearhead of an ideological project that is deeply opposed to the United States.”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

I believe that “Hitler WAS inspired by Islam”  Pamela Geller, AFDI,SIOA, SION

“The ability to enjoy and produce knowledge and abstract thinking is simply lower in the Islamic world.”  Nicolai Sennels

One significant conclusion of my research was that having been raised in a Muslim environment – with Muslim parents and traditions – includes the risk of developing certain antisocial patterns.  Nicolai Sennels

As in many other nauseating situations, Islamonausea is a normal and natural reaction to something abnormal, not vice versa.  The nausea reflex is innate, and it is biologically natural and healthy to experience emotional and bodily discomfort with anything that is unpleasant, unhealthy or harmful.  ... The word Islamonausea can be used to describe a feeling of nausea, disgust, displeasure, discomfort or aversion that arises by itself when encountering Islam or Islamic culture, or whatever or whoever represents it. Nicolai Sennels

“Racism is the lowest form of human stupidity, but Islamophobia is the height of common sense.”  [SIOE motto]

“I would like to feel all warm and fuzzy and embrace the moderate Muslim/ meme but they show no evidence of their existence - not in any real number anyway. The only voices of reason in the Muslim world are lapsed Muslims or apostates.  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“It’s the Muslims who are dragging the rest of the world with them, in their genocidal dreams of annihilating goodness, creativity, production, inventiveness, benevolence, charity, medicine, technology, and all of the gifts of the Jews.  Our goodness makes them ill.”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

I believe that “Islam is a mental illness”.  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“The artifacts featured in this exhibit are stolen. Period. Stolen from the cultures conquered and Islamized, and the lands appropriated by the Muslims. The Met is passing off this stolen intellectual property as Islamic. It isn’t.”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

I believe that Islam is “the most insidious doctrine of hate. Islam can’t be reformed, but it can be eradicated. It can’t be molded, but it can be smashed.”  Ali Sina, SION

“We do not want to reform Islam. We want to eradicate it. Just as cancer cannot be reformed and the only way to cure the patient is to eradicate it, Islam cant be reformed either and it must be eradicated for the world to be saved.”  Ali Sina, FMU, SION

I believe that “Islam, like fascism, appeals to people with low self esteem and low intelligence.  Ali Sina, FMU, SION

I believe that “Every “moderate” Muslim is a potential terrorist.” Ali Sina, FMU, SION

I believe that “On the so-called Global War on Terrorism, GWOT, we have been quite clear along with a few other resolute souls. This should be a WAR AGAINST Islam and all Muslim faithful…At a practical level, this means that Shari’a and Islamic law are immediately outlawed. Any Muslim in America who adopts historical and traditional Shari’a will be subject to deportation. Mosques which adhere to Islamic law will be shut down permanently. No self-described or practicing Muslim, irrespective of his or her declarations to the contrary, will be allowed to immigrate to this country…” David Yerushalmi, SANE

I believe that “Muslim civilization is at war with Judeo-Christian civilization…The Muslim peoples, those committed to Islam as we know it today, are our enemies.”  David Yerushalmi, SANE

“We love you Muslims because you are humans like us. We are all related to each other. We are all limbs of the body of mankind. But you are diseased. You are infected by a deadly cult that threatens our lives. Your humanity is destroyed. Like a limb infected by flesh eating disease, now you are a threat to the rest of mankind. We will do everything to save you, to make you see your folly, and to make you understand that you are victims of a gigantic lie, so you leave this lie, stop hating mankind and plotting for its destruction and it domination. But if all efforts fail and if you become a threat to our lives and the lives of our children, we must amputate you.”  Ali Sina, FMU, SION

There is a need for an “old fashioned war with wholesale slaughter including indiscriminate death of innocents and babes. down to the last Muslim, if necessary.”  John Joseph Jay, AFDI

The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.  ...  The Islamofeces cockroaches are on the march and if we do not kill them all, they shall kill us.  George M. Weinert V

“I’ve got an idea, let’s kill all Muslims.”  Jay Severin

“Rot in hell, Osama bin Laden.  One down, 1.8 billion to go ... many of ‘em inside U.S. borders, with the U.S. government at all levels kissing their asses.”  Debbie Schlussel

“I do not believe that our country can truly fulfill its divine purpose until we understand America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion destroyed.”  Rev. Rod Parsley

“Absolutely. If a Muslim who has—who is—a practicing Muslim who believes the word of the Koran to be the word of Allah, who abides by Islam, who goes to mosque and prays every Friday, who prays five times a day—this practicing Muslim, who believes in the teachings of the Koran, cannot be a loyal citizen to the United States of America.”  Brigitte Gabrie, ACT for Americal

Westerners “don’t want to judge anybody based on their [religion].  [But] Islam is not a religion. Islam is a very dangerous political ideology…. There is no such thing as radical Islam and regular Islam or spiritual Islam….There is only one Islam.”  Wafa Sultan, FMU

“What has the Arab world contributed except terror? The theocratic, repressive Arabic states do no significant science, no significant arts and culture.”  “Osama bin Laden is a very good Muslim - a model one, in fact, and one of the most devout in the 1400 years of Islam.”  David Horowitz, Freedom Center

“Sure America’s First Amendment protects freedom of religion. But the Founding Fathers and signatories of the Constitution undoubtedly would not have included rights in it for members of a religion that demands the destruction, persecution and invasion of the United States of America -and at best, the establishment of a shadow Constitution parallel to the American one, namely Islamic sharia law. No, that most certainly was not in the minds of America’s Founding Fathers.”  Eliana Benador

“America and the West are doomed to failure in this war unless they stand up and identify the real enemy: Islam.”  Brigitte Gabriel, ACT for America

“We are in a war against a political, theocratic, authoritarian ideology and it is called Islam!”  Rep. Allen West, (R-FL)

“The Muslim Representative from Minnesota was elected by the voters of that district and if American citizens don’t wake up and adopt the Virgil Goode position on immigration there will likely be many more Muslims elected to office and demanding the use of the Koran.”  Rep. Virgil H. Goode, Jr

“There are too many mosques in this country.”  -  “85 percent of American Muslim community leaders are an enemy living amongst us”  -  “no (American) Muslims cooperate in the war on terror”.  -  “I would say, you could say that 80-85 percent of mosques in this country are controlled by Islamic fundamentalists … Those who are in control.  The average Muslim, no, they are loyal, but they don’t work, they don’t come forward, they don’t tell the police.”  Rep. Peter King

“We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.”  Ann Coulter

Taught military personnel that they should take a “war on Islam” “to the civilian population wherever necessary,” which he likened to the bombardment of Dresden and nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Army Lt. Col. Matthew A. Dooley

So once one acknowledges the obvious, that there is fascistic behavior among a core of Muslims — specifically, a cult of violence and the wanton use of physical force to impose an ideology on others — the term “Islamo-Fascism” is entirely appropriate.  Dennis Prager

We would be looked upon as uncouth for suggesting that the only language all Muslims understand is that of blood and death and only death can stop them. As long as they survive on this planet, they will be a destabilizing influence and never allow civilized people to breathe freely. There is no hope of transforming the Muslims into a good peace-loving and noble community. As long as a Muslim lives, killing infidels comes to him/her as naturally as does attacking its prey comes to a wild and hungry beast. Muslims are brainwashed to do this by the Quran - the instruction manual of hate and terror. They can never be transformed into good citizens. And so the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. This is the harsh reality. And so we need to face the seemingly heartless and brutal fact of life that all Muslims need to be given the choice of leaving Islam voluntarily or being put out of harm’s way, i.e. put out of the way from harming anybody else! No other way has the prospect of resolving the Muslim problem across the globe.  War on Jihad site

It’s Time to Put the Coffee Down and Eradicate Islam in the West. This article included the passage “It’s time to join the war, not on “terror” (that oh-so soothing illusion,) but on Islam in the West. Most urgently, we must defend Israel as the frontline in the war against the spread of Islam.”  Jeanette Pryor on David Horowitz’ blog

“ Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene…. All immigrants bring exotic customs and attitudes, but Muslim customs are more troublesome than most.”  Daniel Pipes, MEF

Islam is “a violent political system bent on the overthrow of the governments of the world and world domination.  You’re dealing with not a religion, you’re dealing with a political system, and I think we should treat it as such, and treat its adherents as such as we would members of the communist party, members of some fascist group.”  Rev. Pat Robertson

“Do you really want someone representing you, who swears an oath on a Quran — a book that undermines our Constitution and says you should be killed? I’m Gary Boisclair, and I approve this message.”  Gary Boisclair (D-MI)

“It has been left to us to educate the uneducated of this country to the difference between Sikhism, Hinduism and Islam. Islam is a disease….it is a disease. Winston Churchill once said, ‘Islam in a man is the same as rabies in a dog’.”  Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (aka Tommy Robinson), EDL

“... every single Muslim watching this on YouTube: on 7/7 you got away with killing and maiming British citizens, you got away with it. Next time you think about it you’d better understand that we have built a network from one end of this country to the other end. We will not tolerate it and the Islamic community will feel the full force of the English Defence League if we see any of our citizens killed, maimed or hurt on British soil ever again.”  - Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (aka Tommy Robinson), EDL


Last edited by Didge on Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:23 pm

Thank you smelly for proving my point and it was easy, as you just proved you use the same arguments as the Nazi's did.


Boom

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Post by Guest on Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:28 pm

Oh my, do you wanna get schooled on this verse and others again?


Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." 

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Post by Guest on Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:38 pm

Didge wrote:Thank you smelly for proving my point and it was easy, as you just proved you use the same arguments as the Nazi's did.


Boom

your "point" is most laughable

you are attempting to compare the unprovoked persecution and ultimate genocide of the Jews by nazis to what is justified anger, resentment and bitterness towards a groups of Muslims who are anything but innocent and the feelings generated against them anything but unprovoked

the Jews did not bomb, murder,rape,steal from germans nor groom young German girls for gang rape by Jewish pedophiles

they did not bomb the German transport networks or demand only kosher meat be served or denigrate the German culture and religion

Muslims have done those things in EVERY non Muslim country they live in and continue to do so

you are human sewerage to compare Muslims who have shown themselves repeatedly to be the aggressor to Jews who were undeniable the victims of aggressions

what is worse is that in EVERY SINGLE country one earth you can find Muslims calling for the genocide of Jews

for you to compare the hurt feelings and sensitivities of Muslims to the near extermination of the Jews is worse than holocaust denial

but thats not even a new low for you

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Post by Guest on Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:49 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
Didge wrote:Thank you smelly for proving my point and it was easy, as you just proved you use the same arguments as the Nazi's did.


Boom

your "point" is most laughable

you are attempting to compare the unprovoked persecution and ultimate genocide of the Jews by nazis to what is justified anger, resentment and bitterness towards a groups of Muslims who are anything but innocent and the feelings generated against them anything but unprovoked  

the Jews did not bomb, murder,rape,steal from germans  nor groom young German girls for gang rape by Jewish pedophiles

they did not bomb the German transport networks or demand only kosher meat be served or denigrate the German culture and religion

Muslims have done those things in EVERY non Muslim country they live in and continue to do so

you are human sewerage to compare Muslims who have shown themselves repeatedly to be the aggressor to Jews who were undeniable the victims of aggressions

what is worse is that in EVERY SINGLE country one earth you can find Muslims calling for the genocide of Jews

for you to compare the hurt feelings and sensitivities of Muslims to the near extermination of the Jews is worse than holocaust denial

but thats not even a new low for you

Unprovoked? That is not what the Nazi's claimed of the Jews showing again how much of a right waly you are, seriously have you studied any non far right history, as it may help you to understand you are talking out of your arse.

They blamed the Jews for rapes

The blamed the Jews for crimes

They blamed the Jews for the loss of the First World War

They blamed Jews for trying to eradicate German Culture

They blamed for the Reichstag Fire.

I could go on but you still fail to see that the arguments used are exactly the same, which is so funny such an imbecile such as yourself hates the fact you use the same idiotic arguments the Nazi's did, lets look again for you.



Now change the word Jew to Muslim, Judaisms to Islam and you may start to get the picture

Good luck






—all Jews were responsible for the act of any Jew, e.g. “The murder of Ernst vom Rath did not slow legal measures aimed at solving the Jewish Problem, but rather sped them up. The Jews living in Germany had to pay a fine of a billion marks to discourage them from repeating the cowardly murder.” **

— Judaism was not a religion. “Argument 1: “You say that religion is a private matter. But you fight against the Jewish religion!” Counterargument: “Actually, the Jewish religion is nothing other than a doctrine to preserve the Jewish race.” (Adolf Hitler). “In resisting all government attempts to nationalize them, the Jews build a state within the state (Count Helmuth von Moltke). “To call this state a ‘religion’ was one of the cleverest tricks ever invented.” (Adolf Hitler). “From this first lie that Jewry is a religion, not a race, further lies inevitably follow.” (Adolf Hitler).” **

— there was an International Jewish conspiracy to influence and then control governments, media, the economy, etc. **

— the Jews hated all non-Jews and they wanted to destroy the Gentiles and dominate the world ** Further “Whether or not there is an organized Jewish government recognized by all the Jews is less important that the fact that there is a unified and conscious Jewish desire for world power. This is proved by a variety of political events that are taking place in plain sight today.” **

— due to inbreeding, Jews had more negative characteristics and passed on these negative characteristics to the next generation. **

— a war against Judaism was a war against the devil **

— by distortions of the Torah and Talmud they claimed that Judaism teaches hatred **

— “The goal of the Jew is to make himself the ruler of humanity. Wherever he comes, he destroys works of culture. He is not a creative spirit, rather a destructive spirit.” ** “The struggle for world domination will be fought entirely between us, between Germans and Jews. All else is facade and illusion. Behind England stands Israel, and behind France, and behind the United States. Even when we have driven the Jew out of Germany, he remains our world enemy.” Adolf Hitler **

— “Nearly all major inventions were made by Aryans.” The Jews had no real creativity ** “Wherever Jewry has appeared, it has never built anything. It has always and everywhere destroyed or torn down, sucking others dry to fill itself. From the days of the Romans to our day, Jewry in every century, in every people, was and remained a foreign body, a destroyer of real and ideal values, a denier of any upward progress, a plague for body and soul. It sneaks in through deceit and treachery, trickery and slyness, murder and assault, understanding how to establish itself.” **

— a good Jew could not be a good German, that it was impossible for a Jew to honestly say “I am a “good German” and a “decent Jew”! Only a Jew has the insolence to make such a claim. I answer it only to reach the public and finally dispatch the absurd notion of the “decent Jew.” The fable of the “decent Jew” is not a German fable that has been handed down by our people and therefore something with educational value, but rather it is a shameless lie designed to lull the host people to sleep and appeal to hysterical weaklings.” ** And further “And you think you can be a “good German”! True, you do speak German, just as your racial comrades in other countries speak English, French, Spanish, and Polish, but you are no more a German than they are Englishmen, Frenchmen, Spaniards, or Poles, since Jews are a foreign body in every people.” **

— “Jewish law enjoins or permits Jews to murder non-Jews whenever feasible” **

— “Jews are permitted to lie without moral or religious compunction” **

— “Judaism condones the sexual molestation of young girls” ** “The Jewish youth lies in wait for hours on end….spying on the unsuspicious German girl he plans to seduce….he wants to contaminate her blood and remove her from the bosom of her own people. The Jew hates the white race and wants to lower its cultural level so that the Jews might dominate.” - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf **

— there was no way to tell the true nature of Jews as they presented a false face. **

— Jews were uniquely violent and untrustworthy compared to all the other peoples of the world. **

— Jews could not serve loyally in the military of Germany, and they were removed. **

— anti-Semitism was a reasonable response to a clear and present danger. ** If Jews raised the issue of anti-Semitism they were doing it for devious reasons. The Jewish people, once only tolerated, knew how to raise a hue and cry about discrimination and persecution, winning the sympathy of the world for the “poor Jews.” They increasingly infiltrated deep within our national organism, growing to have power over every single area of our national life. **

— there was a “Jewish problem” and that any measures taken against the Jews were reasonable and defensive. **

— Jews are a “disease” infecting any nation they inhabit. “For us, it is a problem of whether our nation can ever recover its health, whether the Jewish spirit can ever really be eradicated. Don’t be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus. Don’t think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis. This Jewish contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Jew, has been banished from our midst.” Adolph Hitler ** “Each Jew individually, and Jewry as a whole, is without a home. Jewry undermines every people and every state that it infiltrates. It feeds as a parasite and a culture-killing worm in the host people. It grows and grows like weeds in the state, the community, and the family and infests the blood of humanity everywhere. In brief, that is the pestilential nature of Jewry, against which every people, every state, every nation must, should, and wants to defend itself if it does not want to be the victim of this bloody plague.” **

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Post by Guest on Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:53 pm

Professor Wolfgang Benz (pictured), Director of the Center for Research on Anti-Semitism at the Technical University, Berlin, in an interview with Qantara talks about the structural similarities in the stigmatisation of Muslims and Jews in Europe.
Qantara: Herr Benz, your article in the Süddeutsche Zeitung, which draws parallels between current Islamophobia and the Berlin Anti-Semitism Dispute in the 19th century, has caused some strong reactions. Has this surprised you?

Benz: I expected a reaction of the sort. Back in September 2008 when I organised a conference on the similarities between Islamophobia and anti-Semitism at the Technical University of Berlin, I could already see what I was setting in motion. Those who have been most critical of me on the Internet were not even present at the conference. Their reaction was simply a Pavlovian reflex. And some of them already knew before the event that they were going to condemn it.

Here we were comparing anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, for those people that amounted to a wicked sin. To some of the critics I was on a par with those who deny the Holocaust. To give way before a politically determined storm of outrage, however, would be contradictory to the spirit of scholarship.
Qantara: Why do you think the debate has been so virulent?

Benz: As a historian, I am not really qualified to offer such an explanation. It's up to the psychologists and psychoanalysts to explain why it is that we evidently need someone to demonise. We are dealing with a small but vocal group that seems to be concerned that the Holocaust could maybe lose its unique features, that Israel will be damaged.

Qantara: You talk about structural parallels between anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. But the stereotypes applied to Jews are not the same as those used applied to Muslims. Muslims, for example, are denigrated as being resistant to modernity.

Benz: But these are only differences of degree. The structural similarities in the stigmatisation of the respective minorities are greater. Part of the stereotype, for example, is the allegation of self-segregation, that is that the minority, supposedly, does not want to integrate and is happy to simply enjoy the advantages of living at the cost of the majority. These are alienation and conspiracy theories, like the notion that minorities want to take over our country or, as we have at the moment, to Islamise us.

In the 19th century it was the Jews, now, supposedly, it is Islam that is threatening the West. We attribute an otherness to the respective minorities, something which must not be taken away from them. They are the common attributes which prejudice can lock on to and build on.

Qantara: Why don't you see any differences?

Benz: I am interested in the ostensible arguments that the majority society used against the Jews and what they are now applying to Muslims. To a large extent it is about ascribing attributes. This means that Muslims are in fact different from the Muslims that exist in the imaginations of those who are anti-Islam. Just as Jews are actually different to the idea of them that anti-Semites have.

I don't mean to say that there are no differences between Jews and Muslims. But the mechanisms of exclusion and discrimination are not only similar; they also share the same motivation. The majority in a society needs foreign minorities, someone to blame for the feeling of being threatened, their alienation and subjugation fantasies. This strengthens the cohesion of the majority society and helps it to find neat, tidy explanations and definitions for what is going on in the world.




What smelly failed to comprehend is he is looking to excuse hating Muslims off using the same arguments the Nazi's did by claiming it is justified by extremists arguments and their actions, what he cannot deny is he uses the exact same arguments of hate


Try again dummy

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Post by Guest on Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:59 pm

it is irrelevant what the Nazis "claimed"

the FACT remains that the Jews did not bomb the German transport networks as Muslims have done in several countries

the Jews did not behead German soldiers or attack German bases as Muslims have done in several countries

the Jews did not murder critics of Judaism as Muslims did in the Netherlands and in several other countries

the above diatribe sounds like it comes straight out of the qur'an and the hadiths

in fact there are dozens of you tube videos that show Muslim clerics saying pretty much the same things

please explain how Muslims holding up signs saying "god bless Hitler" and "kill the Jews" be victims of the same hatred suffered by the Jews when the Muslim are doing the same as the Nazis??


the is no comparison between the propaganda against the Jews and the very real actions of Muslims today

9/11
7/7
bali
mumbia
beslan
Russian metro
madrid
boston
scotland
lockerbie

the list of terror attacks carried out by Muslims is endless and they are responsible for the hatred they receive and are deserving of it all

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Post by Guest on Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:01 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:it is irrelevant what the Nazis "claimed"

the FACT remains that the Jews did not bomb the German transport networks as Muslims have done in several countries

the Jews did not behead German soldiers or attack German bases as Muslims have done in several countries

the Jews did not murder critics of Judaism as Muslims did in the Netherlands and in several other countries

the above diatribe sounds like it comes straight out of the qur'an and the hadiths

in fact there are dozens of you tube videos that show Muslim clerics saying pretty much the same things

please explain how Muslims holding up signs saying "god bless Hitler" and "kill the Jews" be victims of the same hatred suffered by the Jews when the Muslim are doing the same as the Nazis??


the is no comparison between the propaganda against the Jews and the very real actions of Muslims today

9/11
7/7
bali
mumbia
beslan
Russia
madrid
boston
scotland
lockerbie

the list of terror attacks carried out by Muslims is endless and they are responsible for the hatred they receive and are deserving of it all


Again all irrelevant to the debate on the fact you use the same arguments.

Again all you are doing is using extremist actions to justify your hate arguments,the same as the Nazi's


What you have not done is show how they are different, all you are doing is justifying the same arguments used off some extremist action.


Try again Dummy

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Post by Guest on Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:15 pm

The smelly argument, see how it is similar and from one of his own favorite sites (  I will highlight similar excuses)




Hitler believed that Aryan superiority was being threatened particularly by the Jewish race who, he argued, were lazy and had contributed little to world civilization. (Hitler ignored the fact that some of his favourite composers and musicians were Jewish). He claimed that the "Jewish youth lies in wait for hours on end aatanically glaring at and spying on the unconscious girl whom he plans to seduce, adulterating her blood with the ultimate idea of bastardizing the white race which they hate and thus lowering its cultural and political level so that the Jew might dominate."

According to Hitler, Jews were responsible for everything he did not like, including modern art, pornography and prostitution. Hitler also alleged that the Jews had been responsible for losing the First World War. Hitler also claimed that Jews, who were only about 1% of the population, were slowly taking over the country. They were doing this by controlling the largest political party in Germany, the German Social Democrat Party, many of the leading companies and several of the country's newspapers. The fact that Jews had achieved prominent positions in a democratic society was, according to Hitler, an argument against democracy: "a hundred blockheads do not equal one man in wisdom."


Hitler believed that the Jews were involved with Communists in a joint conspiracy to take over the world. Like Henry Ford, Hitler claimed that 75% of all Communists were Jews. Hitler argued that the combination of Jews and Marxists had already been successful in Russia and now threatened the rest of Europe. He argued that the communist revolution was an act of revenge that attempted to disguise the inferiority of the Jews.

In Mein Kampf Hitler declared that: "The external security of a people in largely determined by the size of its territory. If he won power Hitler promised to occupy Russian land that would provide protection and lebensraum (living space) for the German people. This action would help to destroy the Jewish/Marxist attempt to control the world: "The Russian Empire in the East is ripe for collapse; and the end of the Jewish domination of Russia will also be the end of Russia as a state."


https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/nsdap.html

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:51 pm

Sassy wrote:
eddie wrote:
No,sassy we are too tiny a country to keep letting people come in and take the piss, which some people do.
Eds 52 countries have higher population per square mile than we do, very civilised countries.


But there are about 200 countries in the world so we are already one of the most populated quarter.....!
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Post by Guest on Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:05 pm

Wonder why people go to some of these on holiday then:

1 Macau (China)
2 Monaco
3 Singapore
4 Hong Kong (China)
5 Gibraltar (UK)
6 Vatican City
7 Bahrain
8 Malta
9 Bermuda (UK)
10 Sint Maarten (Netherlands)
11 Maldives
12 Bangladesh
13 Jersey (UK)
14 Guernsey (UK)
15 Palestine[6]
16 Saint Martin (France)
17 Taiwan
18 Barbados
19 Mauritius
20 Mayotte (France)
21 San Marino
22 Aruba (Netherlands)
23 South Korea
24 Nauru
25 Lebanon
26 Tuvalu
27 Saint Barthélemy (France)
28 Rwanda
29 Puerto Rico (US)
30 Netherlands
31 Comoros
32 Haiti
33 India
34 Israel
35 Belgium
36 Burundi
37 Martinique (France)
38 Curaçao (Netherlands)
39 Japan
40 Philippines
41 Réunion (France)
42 Marshall Islands
43 Sri Lanka
44 United States Virgin Islands (US)
45 El Salvador
46 Grenada
47 Guam (US)
48 American Samoa (US)
49 Saint Lucia
50 Vietnam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_population_density

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:18 am

Eilzel wrote:To be fair this has all gone slightly off topic. Regardless of immigration the fact is that the arguments compared in the OP are of the same kind; anti Semitic Nazi views of the Jews are the same as the Far Right and conservative views against Muslims today, the same.

You cannot defend the indefensible. And sass and didge are right it is born of the typical scape goating tendency that reveals itself in times of economic difficulty. Attacking Muslims does nothing to help the national situation, bur it does make small minded people feel they have someone to blame...

Disagree on a couple of points, Les.  I have a very difficult time seeing Muslims as anything but conservative.  They may appear to us to be the new leftist cause, but that's due to our own politics.  There's no reason to feel if we achieved all our liberal causes, we would find a like-minded liberal at the end of the rainbow. As soon as we can dispose of the contemporary RW prejudice against Muslims, we can strip everything away and see that there is no such thing as a liberal Muslim.

We are today caught up in a wrinkle in history, brought on by the anomaly of Israel in the Middle East.  But we are perhaps too quick to bestow the title of liberal on Muslims or the Islamic cause.  After all, these are people who are anti-education, anti-freedoms, anti-female and, let's face it, anti-reason.  I have a hard time seeing the Taliban or Al-Qaeda as the new left.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:23 am

Yet again, you miss the point entirely. Nobody is doing anything but condemning the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. But there are millions of Muslims out there who condemn them as well, who are leading perfectly normal lives and contributing to society. There are the people who are being treated in the manner set out in the OP.

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:28 am

Sassy wrote:Yet again, you miss the point entirely.   Nobody is doing anything but condemning the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.   But there are millions of Muslims out there who condemn them as well, who are leading perfectly normal lives and contributing to society.   There are the people who are being treated in the manner set out in the OP.

And they are the people who voted in Hamas in Gaza, and Hamas is Iran. And Iran is wanting nuclear weapons...for what? Medium range missiles on the Mediterranean shore?

Not my idea of a liberal.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:30 am

A New Muslim Renaissance is Here

Rabia Chaudry

April 16, 2014
American Muslims are becoming thought, cultural leaders and reviving perspectives on religious inclusion

History is witness to a time past when the Islamic civilization produced globally unparallelled architecture, literature, science, philosophy, theological discourse, and cultural influences – influences so strong it made European nobles want to dress like Muslims. Critics of Islam and Muslims scoff at this romanticism, asserting that Muslims have not produced anything great since the Middle Ages and most likely will never again. The inherent bigotry and even fallacy of that argument aside, for those critics I have to say, look out, a new Muslim renaissance is upon us.

In the midst of growing anti-Muslim sentiment in the US since 9/11, or perhaps thanks to it, this generation of Muslims is abandoning the traditional professions expected from immigrant parents (doctors, engineers, business people) and entering fields we all once thought were closed to us. The last decade has seen a steady and sure emergence of American Muslims as artists, writers, performers, activists, media personalities and intellectuals (on a global scale Muslims rank as top intellectuals). Inside the DC beltway you see evidence of this shift as well. Young American Muslims are working in national security, public diplomacy, foreign policy, politics – we have our share of hacks and wonks now too.

In a climate where America still finds itself in an uncomfortable dance with Islam, the fact that Muslims themselves are becoming thought and culture leaders in America has tremendous prospects. Anti-shariah bills loom large across the country, violence against Muslims happens and is encouraged, the homeland security apparatus is still figuring out how to work with Muslims as partners and not suspects, and a large swath of the public cannot even stomach something as innocuous as Muslims being in a patriotic coca-cola ad. But instead of being cowed, young American Muslims have reacted by demanding to tell their own stories, become influencers, and claiming their rightful place in US institutions and discourse.

This dynamism hasn’t been limited to the intersection of American Muslims with the prevailing culture. In the past five years American Muslims are leading movements to revive or reform perspectives on religious inclusion, most notably the inclusion of women and LGBTQ Muslims in sacred spaces.

On the issue of women’s leadership, inclusion, and status in Islam, there is a clear call to revive the traditions of female scholarship, leadership, and open mosque spaces. It’s no small thing that the Grand Mufti of Egypt Shaykh Ali Gomaa has acknowledged the permissibility of women leading men in prayer in the Western context after the persistence of female North American Muslim activists and scholars on the issue. A movement to explore the spaces allotted women in American mosques has lead to a larger discussion on what it means to be “Unmosqued”, or be part of a generation that feels little relevance and connection to any place of worship. “Muslim feminism” is being taken seriously by Western Muslims as the antidote to patriarchal expressions of Islam. The long standing idea, from the colonial period onward, that mosques and religious leadership are male spaces is finding its match not in a global Muslim arena, but in a Western Muslim one.

Similar to other faith traditions in the US, Islamic orthodoxy and traditionalism is being challenged on the issue of LGBTQ inclusion. A progressive Muslim movement is forcing Muslim debate and discussion on the limits of tolerance and inclusion. While the prevailing rulings of the theological boundaries on homosexual lifestyles are unlikely to change anytime soon, Western Muslim institutions have been moved to adopt a position similar to Orthodox Jewish leaders. A public recognition by a major Muslim organization of universal human dignity, and the right not to be discriminated against based on sexual orientation, would be nearly impossible to find in Muslim majority countries today, and just as difficult to find in the US a decade ago.

Social challenges such as finding suitable marriage partners is pushing conversation on interfaith marriage, traditionally an option for Muslim men, but now seriously being discussed among American Muslim women. Not just discussed, but supported by some religious leadership.

An interesting trend on these issues is that American Muslims by and large seek religious validation for revisiting and reforming rulings. They even depend on traditional Islamic principles such as ijtihad to, some may say, do away with other traditional Islamic principles. As such, a modern Islamic orthodoxy with Western Muslim scholarship at the helm, grounded in faith but embracing pluralism and change, seems to be the balance most American Muslims are gravitating towards

It’s heady, scary, and exciting to watch the face and discourse of American Muslims change and expand before your eyes. The Islam I grew up with in America is not the Islam my children are experiencing. The possibilities for their lives are much more expansive than the possibilities for my life were. The largely comfortable integration and success of American Muslims that sets them apart from their counterparts in Europe also lends space for these possibilities. From tremendously increased participation in American civic and cultural life, to pressing internal demands on religious orthodoxy, another generation or two will see a vastly different American Islam that will likely have an impact on Muslims globally. From marginalized minority, American Muslims are poised to become mainstream leaders and influencers. And it’s no small irony that while historians bemoan conquest and Western colonialism as the death knell for Islam’s “Golden Age”, this new Muslim renaissance is growing out of the West itself.

Rabia Chaudry is an attorney and the founder and president of the Safe Nation Collaborative.

http://time.com/65094/look-out-for-the-new-Muslim-renaissance/

There you go.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:34 am

Without Wiki-ing it, perhaps you would like to tell us, from your font of knowledge, which country in the world has the largest number of Muslims Quill?   And how about those in Bosnia etc?

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:38 am

I just realized I am arguing with the biggest anti-semite in the house.

Not much discussion to be hand here. Carry on...

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:42 am

Oh dear, yet another cop out.   So if I criticised Bush I would be anti-American, yet you criticise Bush.   I criticise the Israel government.   There's a lot of governments I criticise funnily enough.

You on the other hand are anti Muslim, regardless of where they come from or what they do, your prejudice is blatant.   You don't do it just against the Taliban etc, you say they are all like it.   Your hypocrisy, when you have the gall to talk about racism against the black man, when you show exactly the same attitude against Muslims, is appalling.

In fact, you are probably just a prejudiced against the American Muslims in the article I just posted. I hope none live near you, you would be the horrible old man shouting at them in the street.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:25 am

Original Quill wrote:
Sassy wrote:Yet again, you miss the point entirely.   Nobody is doing anything but condemning the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.   But there are millions of Muslims out there who condemn them as well, who are leading perfectly normal lives and contributing to society.   There are the people who are being treated in the manner set out in the OP.

And they are the people who voted in Hamas in Gaza, and Hamas is Iran.  And Iran is wanting nuclear weapons...for what?  Medium range missiles on the Mediterranean shore?

Not my idea of a liberal.


Sorry daft and absurd logic, millions voted for Hitler and yet did not imagine he would commit genocide, a rather poor and inept stereotype, I expect better from you quill, as poor as your RW and Mormon stereotype view.
You are suggesting any person of a set faith will always be as it dictates, that is again utter nonsense, and as a former Judge, you would know, no such logic dictates any human cannot be able to think for itself, even if swayed by religion, because they can. You ignore all scientific knowledge of humans by stating a rather absurd view point, built by now a book?

Behave, your argument is absurd

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:31 am

Original Quill wrote:
Eilzel wrote:To be fair this has all gone slightly off topic. Regardless of immigration the fact is that the arguments compared in the OP are of the same kind; anti Semitic Nazi views of the Jews are the same as the Far Right and conservative views against Muslims today, the same.

You cannot defend the indefensible. And sass and didge are right it is born of the typical scape goating tendency that reveals itself in times of economic difficulty. Attacking Muslims does nothing to help the national situation, bur it does make small minded people feel they have someone to blame...

Disagree on a couple of points, Les.  I have a very difficult time seeing Muslims as anything but conservative.  They may appear to us to be the new leftist cause, but that's due to our own politics.  There's no reason to feel if we achieved all our liberal causes, we would find a like-minded liberal at the end of the rainbow.  As soon as we can dispose of the contemporary RW prejudice against Muslims, we can strip everything away and see that there is no such thing as a liberal Muslim.

We are today caught up in a wrinkle in history, brought on by the anomaly of Israel in the Middle East.  But we are perhaps too quick to bestow the title of liberal on Muslims or the Islamic cause.  After all, these are people who are anti-education, anti-freedoms, anti-female and, let's face it, anti-reason.  I have a hard time seeing the Taliban or Al-Qaeda as the new left.

Again collective balderdash based upon a time era, how about we take you back a couple of hundred years and see other faiths like Christian doing the same, would your logic fit there, or has in the west many have been able to overcome religious indoctrination?
Here in the West we progressed and advanced not out of any love but war and taking from others, this enabled us to have time to think and reflect, whilst others struggled. Now we see many Muslims in the west progress, why? If this means they can just like many Christians did, why cannot many who follow anther absurd religion in Islam. They are all worthy of being critical about, but it is people that make a religion, and as seen people when faced with new views change, because they see that there is actually another view.

There is no denying the hate now with Israel and Palestine, but again blaming does not solve hate, only forgiving and reconciliation helps unite people

The Taiban like any religious group is born out of fear, a fear of losing control for people used to being in control, but a minority makes a view point to see all a group as if they are one, sorry that is also lame. I would rather help to see a faith just as Christianity did, move forward with progression and blaming and casting is not going to achieve that


Last edited by Didge on Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:33 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:33 am

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

And they are the people who voted in Hamas in Gaza, and Hamas is Iran.  And Iran is wanting nuclear weapons...for what?  Medium range missiles on the Mediterranean shore?

Not my idea of a liberal.


Sorry daft and absurd logic, millions voted for Hitler and yet did not imagine he would commit genocide, a rather poor and inept stereotype, I expect better from you quill, as poor as your RW and Mormon stereotype view.
You are suggesting any person of a set faith will always be as it dictates, that is again utter nonsense, and as a former Judge, you would know, no such logic dictates any human cannot be able to think for itself, even if swayed by religion, because they can. You ignore all scientific knowledge of humans by stating a rather absurd view point, built by now a book?

Behave, your argument is absurd  


I don't know much about the Hamas etc..but Didge that is certainly spot on about the Germans and Hitler...

Quill...your a former Judge too?...

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:33 am

Sassy wrote:Without Wiki-ing it, perhaps you would like to tell us, from your font of knowledge, which country in the world has the largest number of Muslims Quill?   And how about those in Bosnia etc?

Indonesian, number two is Pakistan  study 

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 am

smelly_bandit wrote:it is irrelevant what the Nazis "claimed"

the FACT remains that the Jews did not bomb the German transport networks as Muslims have done in several countries

the Jews did not behead German soldiers or attack German bases as Muslims have done in several countries

the Jews did not murder critics of Judaism as Muslims did in the Netherlands and in several other countries

the above diatribe sounds like it comes straight out of the qur'an and the hadiths

in fact there are dozens of you tube videos that show Muslim clerics saying pretty much the same things

please explain how Muslims holding up signs saying "god bless Hitler" and "kill the Jews" be victims of the same hatred suffered by the Jews when the Muslim are doing the same as the Nazis??


the is no comparison between the propaganda against the Jews and the very real actions of Muslims today

9/11
7/7
bali
mumbia
beslan
Russian metro
madrid
boston
scotland
lockerbie

the list of terror attacks carried out by Muslims is endless and they are responsible for the hatred they receive and are deserving of it all

The thing I can't believe is that people like yourself act like these things came out of thin air. They, of course, did not. To many Muslims, we (the West) have stolen their land in Palestine, starved their children in Iraq, put military bases around their holy cities in Saudi Arabia, bombed their wedding parties and family homes in Afghanistan, toppled their democratically elected governments in Iran and many other places ... and the list goes on.

I'm not saying any terrorist attack is ever justified, but in the face of what the West has done in Islamic countries, how can we possibly sit back and think nobody's going to get pissed off enough to strike back?

And of course they'll tell themselves they do it for their religion, just as many Western nutters, particularly Americans, say the same thing. Any population that worships anything will eventually have people killing in the name of what they worship, because we're great at concluding that "God" is always on our side and against those assholes.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:19 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:it is irrelevant what the Nazis "claimed"

the FACT remains that the Jews did not bomb the German transport networks as Muslims have done in several countries

the Jews did not behead German soldiers or attack German bases as Muslims have done in several countries

the Jews did not murder critics of Judaism as Muslims did in the Netherlands and in several other countries

the above diatribe sounds like it comes straight out of the qur'an and the hadiths

in fact there are dozens of you tube videos that show Muslim clerics saying pretty much the same things

please explain how Muslims holding up signs saying "god bless Hitler" and "kill the Jews" be victims of the same hatred suffered by the Jews when the Muslim are doing the same as the Nazis??


the is no comparison between the propaganda against the Jews and the very real actions of Muslims today

9/11
7/7
bali
mumbia
beslan
Russian metro
madrid
boston
scotland
lockerbie

the list of terror attacks carried out by Muslims is endless and they are responsible for the hatred they receive and are deserving of it all

The thing I can't believe is that people like yourself act like these things came out of thin air. They, of course, did not. To many Muslims, we (the West) have stolen their land in Palestine, starved their children in Iraq, put military bases around their holy cities in Saudi Arabia, bombed their wedding parties and family homes in Afghanistan, toppled their democratically elected governments in Iran and many other places ... and the list goes on.

I'm not saying any terrorist attack is ever justified
, but in the face of what the West has done in Islamic countries, how can we possibly sit back and think nobody's going to get pissed off enough to strike back?

And of course they'll tell themselves they do it for their religion, just as many Western nutters, particularly Americans, say the same thing. Any population that worships anything will eventually have people killing in the name of what they worship, because we're great at concluding that "God" is always on our side and against those assholes.

you kinda just did justify it


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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:41 am

this is the most surreal and sinister twist of logic and perversion of facts i have ever seen

the left are attempting to compare the vilification, oppression ghettoisation and eventual industrialized extermination of the Jewish population by a government regime with something that isn't happening to Muslims

where are the ghettos filled with Muslims across europe??

where are the death camps filled with Muslims across europe??

where is the state run propaganda department generating propaganda against Muslims??

where is the mobs smashing the windows of Muslim run businesses??

none of these things are happening to Muslims anywhere in europe or the west

in fact the opposite is happening

Muslims are allowed to bomb our cities with impunity, after 9/11 and 7/7 the governments state run propaganda departments immediately issued productions explaining how Muslims are peaceful and Islam is a religion of peace and how it isnt "all of them"

the police and security services where immediately braced for a wave of backlash against Muslim communities that never came

Muslims are allowed to dictated that their halal meat is to be the only option served

Muslims are allowed to have sexual segregation due to their religious obligations

Muslims are even allowed to govern themselves in a parallel legal system run outside the reach of the law of the land

no

to compare what happened to the Jews to the luxury and protection that the Muslims of the west currently enjoy is the worst perversion of morality and makes holocaust denial trivial



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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:11 am

secondly

we must look at what the left are saying here and be careful that their very nazi like propaganda is exposed

the left are attempting to portray the Muslims of europe and the world as victims instead of the very obvious aggressors that they are

i would like to use part of bens post to expose the perversion of logic

ben says


"in the face of what the West has done in Islamic countries, how can we possibly sit back and think nobody's going to get pissed off enough to strike back?"


this reaction that you believe is justifiable ben is what we call "cause and effect"

you have made the claim that the terrorist attacks across europe are justified (in Muslim minds) by what the west have done to Muslim lands

this is cause and effect

the effect is retaliation

the cause is the Wests actions in Muslim lands

that logic is exactly what is happening in europe in reference to the growing anger and resentment to Muslims

allow me to draw it in crayon for the left

if smelly bandit punches Ben in the face, is Ben going to like or dislike smelly bandit??

the answer is of course ben will dislike smelly bandit

the same reasoning can be applied to Muslims

over the last 30 odd years Muslims have been repeatedly punching the west in the face, attacking our people raping our children etc etc

over the past decade those punches have gotten more frequent and harder hitting

therefore the growing feelings of resentment and anger against the Muslim population is a direct reaction to the actions of these Muslim populations

it is cause and effect, action and reaction, consequences

what the left are attempting to do is reverse this natural order of things to achieve the opposite effect

the flawed logic used by the left is as follows

smelly bandit punches ben in the face

as a result ben dislikes smellybandit

*insert left logic here*

ben is a hatemonger for disliking smellybandit and smellybandit is the victim of bens undeserved hate

the logic of the left is broken and relies on ignoring reality and altering facts or fabricating facts and perverting chronology

for this to work the actions of the aggressor have to be ignored

so for the above example, the fact that smelly has punched ben in the face HAS to be ignored in order for ben to be vilified

OR

the punching in the face needs to be falsely justified by something ben has done to smelly previously  

if the actions of smelly ARE factored into the equation then ben cannot be the hatemonger since he is reacting naturally to aggression leveled against him  

and if smellys actions cannot be ignored then then they have to be justified and if justification is too difficult then they need to be fabricated

either way this propaganda is designed primarily to portray the victim as the aggressor or hatemonger

but ben has correctly spotted the flaw in the logic with his very astute observation



"in the face of what the West has done in Islamic countries, how can we possibly sit back and think nobody's going to get pissed off enough to strike back?"


indeed Ben, how in the face of the repeated Muslim attacks on western countries can anyone in the west possibly sit back and think nobody's going to get pissed off enough to start hating Muslims for their actions???

it is a dirty piece of propaganda that would make Goebbels green with envy

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:44 am

PMSL, still not able to show his arguments are not the same, just more  justification for using the same arguments and still cannot show how they are different prejudice arguments.


We are not talking about the same events that have happened but the same prejudice arguments being used, seriously how dim are you smelly?


Try again dummy

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:58 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:it is irrelevant what the Nazis "claimed"

the FACT remains that the Jews did not bomb the German transport networks as Muslims have done in several countries

the Jews did not behead German soldiers or attack German bases as Muslims have done in several countries

the Jews did not murder critics of Judaism as Muslims did in the Netherlands and in several other countries

the above diatribe sounds like it comes straight out of the qur'an and the hadiths

in fact there are dozens of you tube videos that show Muslim clerics saying pretty much the same things

please explain how Muslims holding up signs saying "god bless Hitler" and "kill the Jews" be victims of the same hatred suffered by the Jews when the Muslim are doing the same as the Nazis??


the is no comparison between the propaganda against the Jews and the very real actions of Muslims today

9/11
7/7
bali
mumbia
beslan
Russian metro
madrid
boston
scotland
lockerbie

the list of terror attacks carried out by Muslims is endless and they are responsible for the hatred they receive and are deserving of it all

The thing I can't believe is that people like yourself act like these things came out of thin air. They, of course, did not. To many Muslims, we (the West) have stolen their land in Palestine, starved their children in Iraq, put military bases around their holy cities in Saudi Arabia, bombed their wedding parties and family homes in Afghanistan, toppled their democratically elected governments in Iran and many other places ... and the list goes on.

I'm not saying any terrorist attack is ever justified
, but in the face of what the West has done in Islamic countries, how can we possibly sit back and think nobody's going to get pissed off enough to strike back?

And of course they'll tell themselves they do it for their religion, just as many Western nutters, particularly Americans, say the same thing. Any population that worships anything will eventually have people killing in the name of what they worship, because we're great at concluding that "God" is always on our side and against those assholes.

you kinda just did justify it


Not really -- saying we should have predicted someone would try to retaliate is not the same as saying as innocent people deserved to die.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:52 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

you kinda just did justify it


Not really -- saying we should have predicted someone would try to retaliate is not the same as saying as innocent people deserved to die.

Of course it's not. And it's very nice having someone seeing the other side of the coin and what we have done to them and why we should have expected retaliation.

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:33 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Disagree on a couple of points, Les.  I have a very difficult time seeing Muslims as anything but conservative.  They may appear to us to be the new leftist cause, but that's due to our own politics.  There's no reason to feel if we achieved all our liberal causes, we would find a like-minded liberal at the end of the rainbow.  As soon as we can dispose of the contemporary RW prejudice against Muslims, we can strip everything away and see that there is no such thing as a liberal Muslim.

We are today caught up in a wrinkle in history, brought on by the anomaly of Israel in the Middle East.  But we are perhaps too quick to bestow the title of liberal on Muslims or the Islamic cause.  After all, these are people who are anti-education, anti-freedoms, anti-female and, let's face it, anti-reason.  I have a hard time seeing the Taliban or Al-Qaeda as the new left.

Again collective balderdash based upon a time era, how about we take you back a couple of hundred years and see other faiths like Christian doing the same, would your logic fit there, or has in the west many have been able to overcome religious indoctrination?
Here in the West we progressed and advanced not out of any love but war and taking from others, this enabled us to have time to think and reflect, whilst others struggled. Now we see many Muslims in the west progress, why? If this means they can just like many Christians did, why cannot many who follow anther absurd religion in Islam. They are all worthy of being critical about, but it is people that make a religion, and as seen people when faced with new views change, because they see that there is actually another view.

There is no denying the hate now with Israel and Palestine, but again blaming does not solve hate, only forgiving and reconciliation helps unite people

The Taiban like any religious group is born out of fear, a fear of losing control for people used to being in control, but a minority makes a view point to see all a group as if they are one, sorry that is also lame. I would rather help to see a faith just as Christianity did, move forward with progression and blaming and casting is not going to achieve that

Unfortunately, we are dealing with the present, Didge.  We don't need a long exegesis into history; we have all the elements before us in the here and now.   In terms of modern ideas and parlance, our championing of Muslims is a progressive movement.  You agree to that and I agree to that.  Muslims are being unfairly discriminated against in the west, and it is well and good for progressives to rise up and defend them, just as we would with any minority group.  

My point is that we have to distinguish the championing of Muslims in their contemporary situation, from the tenets of Islam itself.  The inarticulate see only one issue out there as they lack tolerance (or capacity) for a more complex appreciation.  We can do everything in our power to oppose discrimination against Muslims--and well we should--but we must realize we are basically liberating a conservative people.  It's kinda like three-dimensional chess, Didge: there's another level to consider.

When I see posters calling Muslims liberals, I see they are confusing the subject with their own sympathies.  Again, they are not perceiving a three-dimensional view; everything is black/white, right/wrong, good/bad, or whatever metaphor you wish.  

Such perceptions are why we fall into this malaise of confusing geopolitical situations such as the current one in Egypt today.  We in the west simply misunderstand...again, because we are only seeing two dimensions.  Liberating Egypt from a Mubarak is a good thing, we feel.  It's progressive and brings the country into the modern era.  But then, the so-called liberated people proceed to implement a spate of laws that potentially toss Egypt back into the dark ages.  We are horrified.  What is happening?  How can they do this?

So the military again takes over.  Then, arguments arise that split the liberals themselves.  On the one hand the military is a usurper for oligarchy.  It is a throwback to Mubarak.  On the other hand, others claim the military is rescuing a struggling democracy from a vicious theocracy.  It's anti-democracy!  No, it's saving democracy!  In the end, what is really happening is we simply aren't appreciating the third-dimension: we are the liberals; they are conservatives.  We are championing the liberation of people, who in turn want a vicious theocracy.

Conservatives undergo this kind of primitive thinking all the time (notwithstanding that you, as a conservative, may not).  They see black person...ergo crime.  They see female person...ergo apron.  In this country, they see Hispanic...ergo illegal immigrant--two-dimensional thinking.  But as more progressive, politically astute people, we liberals see the complexities: We are the liberals, Muslims are conservative.

It is altogether proper that we should fight for the Muslims' rights, but don't confuse what you are doing with who they are.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:24 pm

Quill defending Muslims, that's completely priceless!!

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:25 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Sassy wrote:Without Wiki-ing it, perhaps you would like to tell us, from your font of knowledge, which country in the world has the largest number of Muslims Quill?   And how about those in Bosnia etc?

Indonesian, number two is Pakistan   study 

Give the man a coconut lol

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:27 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

And they are the people who voted in Hamas in Gaza, and Hamas is Iran.  And Iran is wanting nuclear weapons...for what?  Medium range missiles on the Mediterranean shore?

Not my idea of a liberal.


Sorry daft and absurd logic, millions voted for Hitler and yet did not imagine he would commit genocide, a rather poor and inept stereotype, I expect better from you quill, as poor as your RW and Mormon stereotype view.
You are suggesting any person of a set faith will always be as it dictates, that is again utter nonsense, and as a former Judge, you would know, no such logic dictates any human cannot be able to think for itself, even if swayed by religion, because they can. You ignore all scientific knowledge of humans by stating a rather absurd view point, built by now a book?

Behave, your argument is absurd  

Please, please say that he didn't tell you he used to be a judge.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:36 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

Again collective balderdash based upon a time era, how about we take you back a couple of hundred years and see other faiths like Christian doing the same, would your logic fit there, or has in the west many have been able to overcome religious indoctrination?
Here in the West we progressed and advanced not out of any love but war and taking from others, this enabled us to have time to think and reflect, whilst others struggled. Now we see many Muslims in the west progress, why? If this means they can just like many Christians did, why cannot many who follow anther absurd religion in Islam. They are all worthy of being critical about, but it is people that make a religion, and as seen people when faced with new views change, because they see that there is actually another view.

There is no denying the hate now with Israel and Palestine, but again blaming does not solve hate, only forgiving and reconciliation helps unite people

The Taiban like any religious group is born out of fear, a fear of losing control for people used to being in control, but a minority makes a view point to see all a group as if they are one, sorry that is also lame. I would rather help to see a faith just as Christianity did, move forward with progression and blaming and casting is not going to achieve that

Unfortunately, we are dealing with the present, Didge.  We don't need a long exegesis into history; we have all the elements before us in the here and now.   In terms of modern ideas and parlance, our championing of Muslims is a progressive movement.  You agree to that and I agree to that.  Muslims are being unfairly discriminated against in the west, and it is well and good for progressives to rise up and defend them, just as we would with any minority group.  

My point is that we have to distinguish the championing of Muslims in their contemporary situation, from the tenets of Islam itself.  The inarticulate see only one issue out there as they lack tolerance (or capacity) for a more complex appreciation.  We can do everything in our power to oppose discrimination against Muslims--and well we should--but we must realize we are basically liberating a conservative people.  It's kinda like three-dimensional chess, Didge: there's another level to consider.

When I see posters calling Muslims liberals, I see they are confusing the subject with their own sympathies.  Again, they are not perceiving a three-dimensional view; everything is black/white, right/wrong, good/bad, or whatever metaphor you wish.  

Such perceptions are why we fall into this malaise of confusing geopolitical situations such as the current one in Egypt today.  We in the west simply misunderstand...again, because we are only seeing two dimensions.  Liberating Egypt from a Mubarak is a good thing, we feel.  It's progressive and brings the country into the modern era.  But then, the so-called liberated people proceed to implement a spate of laws that potentially toss Egypt back into the dark ages.  We are horrified.  What is happening?  How can they do this?

So the military again takes over.  Then, arguments arise that split the liberals themselves.  On the one hand the military is a usurper for oligarchy.  It is a throwback to Mubarak.  On the other hand, others claim the military is rescuing a struggling democracy from a vicious theocracy.  It's anti-democracy!  No, it's saving democracy!  In the end, what is really happening is we simply aren't appreciating the third-dimension: we are the liberals; they are conservatives.  We are championing the liberation of people, who in turn want a vicious theocracy.

Conservatives undergo this kind of primitive thinking all the time (notwithstanding that you, as a conservative, may not).  They see black person...ergo crime.  They see female person...ergo apron.  In this country, they see Hispanic...ergo illegal immigrant--two-dimensional thinking.  But as more progressive, politically astute people, we liberals see the complexities: We are the liberals, Muslims are conservative.

It is altogether proper that we should fight for the Muslims' rights, but don't confuse what you are doing with who they are.



First few points agree, second half, no, because you again reply on concepts and not individuality. 

Christianity through Pauline teaching was anti democracy, you know this more than any, because it was proven by the fact religious leaders tries to hold this back and this is the point. All 3 of the Abrahamic faiths are barbaric, even Christianity, people neglect that Jesus is meant to return to commit mass genocide by killing billions, that is on a par with many of the biblical Prophets.

The problem is though is you perform any poor perception as you are doing is no better than what you charge others with is it? You are like me thinking how can they not see this view point, but you argue well but not on this because you fall prey to what you argue against them, logic.

A Muslim, like any Christian, Hindu, etc can be as they want to be, you think because a faith has been adhered to just as it once was here will never change, even though we see many Muslims progress being against even their own religious views? Come on, you k now this, change happens even in any faith and those people prove it

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:40 pm

Sassy wrote:
Didge wrote:


Sorry daft and absurd logic, millions voted for Hitler and yet did not imagine he would commit genocide, a rather poor and inept stereotype, I expect better from you quill, as poor as your RW and Mormon stereotype view.
You are suggesting any person of a set faith will always be as it dictates, that is again utter nonsense, and as a former Judge, you would know, no such logic dictates any human cannot be able to think for itself, even if swayed by religion, because they can. You ignore all scientific knowledge of humans by stating a rather absurd view point, built by now a book?

Behave, your argument is absurd  

Please, please say that he didn't tell you he used to be a judge.  



Sassy, I really respect Quill, no matter what you may think of him, he like us all has faults, but his views are very interesting. We may not agree at times, but I know that the respect is mutual, as we once were at odds, not once have we ever descended to any abuse since though, to me that says it all. He is way better than me at subjects, as I guess he will agree I on others, maybe not, but he does not shy away from real debate.

Please do not drag me into squabbles sassy, as I respect you also, as i do many here

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:46 pm

Didge wrote:
Sassy wrote:

Please, please say that he didn't tell you he used to be a judge.  



Sassy, I really respect Quill, no matter what you may think of him, he like us all has faults, but his views are very interesting. We may not agree at times, but I know that the respect is mutual, as we once were at odds, not once have we ever descended to any abuse since though, to me that says it all. He is way better than me at subjects, as I guess he will agree I on others, maybe not, but he does not shy away from real debate.

Please do not drag me into squabbles sassy, as I respect you also, as i do many here

I realise you respect him Didge, and that is why I think it is disgusting that he told you such a bloody great lie. I'll leave it at that.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:51 pm

Sassy wrote:
Didge wrote:



Sassy, I really respect Quill, no matter what you may think of him, he like us all has faults, but his views are very interesting. We may not agree at times, but I know that the respect is mutual, as we once were at odds, not once have we ever descended to any abuse since though, to me that says it all. He is way better than me at subjects, as I guess he will agree I on others, maybe not, but he does not shy away from real debate.

Please do not drag me into squabbles sassy, as I respect you also, as i do many here

I realise you respect him Didge, and that is why I think it is disgusting that he told you such a bloody great lie.   I'll leave it at that.


Sorry but that is not respecting my view but trying to persuade it, because you are not letting go, it is nothing more than a grudge and a disagreement, both of you too stubborn to realise, you would rather be at odds, that is absurd and over what? A war of words? 

I will not be swayed on anyone, as much as I may mock stupidity, I would never wish any misfortune to any here. As is it really better to be bitter or love?

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:55 pm

Didge wrote:
Sassy wrote:

I realise you respect him Didge, and that is why I think it is disgusting that he told you such a bloody great lie.   I'll leave it at that.


Sorry but that is not respecting my view but trying to persuade it, because you are not letting go, it is nothing more than a grudge and a disagreement, both of you too stubborn to realise, you would rather be at odds, that is absurd and over what? A war of words? 

I will not be swayed on anyone, as much as I may mock stupidity, I would never wish any misfortune to any here. As is it really better to be bitter or love?

I'm not trying to persuade you, I'm telling you it's the truth. What you do about is completely up to you.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:29 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Unfortunately, we are dealing with the present, Didge.  We don't need a long exegesis into history; we have all the elements before us in the here and now.   In terms of modern ideas and parlance, our championing of Muslims is a progressive movement.  You agree to that and I agree to that.  Muslims are being unfairly discriminated against in the west, and it is well and good for progressives to rise up and defend them, just as we would with any minority group.  

My point is that we have to distinguish the championing of Muslims in their contemporary situation, from the tenets of Islam itself.  The inarticulate see only one issue out there as they lack tolerance (or capacity) for a more complex appreciation.  We can do everything in our power to oppose discrimination against Muslims--and well we should--but we must realize we are basically liberating a conservative people.  It's kinda like three-dimensional chess, Didge: there's another level to consider.

When I see posters calling Muslims liberals, I see they are confusing the subject with their own sympathies.  Again, they are not perceiving a three-dimensional view; everything is black/white, right/wrong, good/bad, or whatever metaphor you wish.  

Such perceptions are why we fall into this malaise of confusing geopolitical situations such as the current one in Egypt today.  We in the west simply misunderstand...again, because we are only seeing two dimensions.  Liberating Egypt from a Mubarak is a good thing, we feel.  It's progressive and brings the country into the modern era.  But then, the so-called liberated people proceed to implement a spate of laws that potentially toss Egypt back into the dark ages.  We are horrified.  What is happening?  How can they do this?

So the military again takes over.  Then, arguments arise that split the liberals themselves.  On the one hand the military is a usurper for oligarchy.  It is a throwback to Mubarak.  On the other hand, others claim the military is rescuing a struggling democracy from a vicious theocracy.  It's anti-democracy!  No, it's saving democracy!  In the end, what is really happening is we simply aren't appreciating the third-dimension: we are the liberals; they are conservatives.  We are championing the liberation of people, who in turn want a vicious theocracy.

Conservatives undergo this kind of primitive thinking all the time (notwithstanding that you, as a conservative, may not).  They see black person...ergo crime.  They see female person...ergo apron.  In this country, they see Hispanic...ergo illegal immigrant--two-dimensional thinking.  But as more progressive, politically astute people, we liberals see the complexities: We are the liberals, Muslims are conservative.

It is altogether proper that we should fight for the Muslims' rights, but don't confuse what you are doing with who they are.



First few points agree, second half, no, because you again reply on concepts and not individuality. 

Christianity through Pauline teaching was anti democracy, you know this more than any, because it was proven by the fact religious leaders tries to hold this back and this is the point. All 3 of the Abrahamic faiths are barbaric, even Christianity, people neglect that Jesus is meant to return to commit mass genocide by killing billions, that is on a par with many of the biblical Prophets.

The problem is though is you perform any poor perception as you are doing is no better than what you charge others with is it? You are like me thinking how can they not see this view point, but you argue well but not on this because you fall prey to what you argue against them, logic.

A Muslim, like any Christian, Hindu, etc can be as they want to be, you think because a faith has been adhered to just as it once was here will never change, even though we see many Muslims progress being against even their own religious views? Come on, you k now this, change happens even in any faith and those people prove it

"even though we see many Muslims progress being against even their own religious views?"

what does this mean??

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:29 pm

::D:: 

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:47 pm

Happy days smelly again has no answer/

 lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  


So easy

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Post by Guest on Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:21 am

What's it mean didge??

I don't understand

Please teach me

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:20 am

Didge wrote:
Sassy wrote:

Please, please say that he didn't tell you he used to be a judge.  



Sassy, I really respect Quill, no matter what you may think of him, he like us all has faults, but his views are very interesting. We may not agree at times, but I know that the respect is mutual, as we once were at odds, not once have we ever descended to any abuse since though, to me that says it all. He is way better than me at subjects, as I guess he will agree I on others, maybe not, but he does not shy away from real debate.

Please do not drag me into squabbles sassy, as I respect you also, as i do many here

Without comment, thank you Didge.  It is the point I have been trying to make: honesty and objectivity make the day.

_________________
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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Original Quill on Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:48 am

smelly_bandit wrote:What's it mean didge??

I don't understand

Please teach me

Smelly, without meaning any insult, there are things you will probably never understand.  This is a conversation between intellectuals, who understand reason, and who respect logic.  I don't want to leave you out, but then I don't see that you need to know what is going on.

Follow...or don't follow, as you wish.  We are talking about interpretation of certain themes such as Christian humanism and Muslim conservatism.  We don't cotton to any quick analyses.  We sure as hell don't invite any conservative quips.  We are discussing a complex question of doctrine.

But, as I say, I don't want to leave you out.  Ask away, any questions. If you are seriously interested, I would love to discuss.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

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Original Quill
Original Quill

Posts : 30435
Join date : 2013-12-19
Age : 54
Location : Northern California

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Post by Guest on Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:50 am

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:



Sassy, I really respect Quill, no matter what you may think of him, he like us all has faults, but his views are very interesting. We may not agree at times, but I know that the respect is mutual, as we once were at odds, not once have we ever descended to any abuse since though, to me that says it all. He is way better than me at subjects, as I guess he will agree I on others, maybe not, but he does not shy away from real debate.

Please do not drag me into squabbles sassy, as I respect you also, as i do many here

Without comment, thank you Didge.  It is the point I have been trying to make: honesty and objectivity make the day.


No problem Quill and hope you are having a wonderful weekend.

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Post by Guest on Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:52 am

smelly_bandit wrote:What's it mean didge??

I don't understand

Please teach me


Yep we always knew that, thanks for finally admitting you don't understand anything, is about time, well done and congratulations for at last being Honest you are clueless.

You want to be taught, how were Christians once and some still are in the west?


If you know the answer to that, it will help you understand

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Post by Guest on Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:02 am

Original Quill wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:What's it mean didge??

I don't understand

Please teach me

Smelly, without meaning any insult, there are things you will probably never understand.  This is a conversation between intellectuals, who understand reason, and who respect logic.  I don't want to leave you out, but then I don't see that you need to know what is going on.

Follow...or don't follow, as you wish.  We are talking about interpretation of certain themes such as Christian humanism and Muslim conservatism.  We don't cotton to any quick analyses.  We sure as hell don't invite any conservative quips.  We are discussing a complex question of doctrine.

But, as I say, I don't want to leave you out.  Ask away, any questions.  If you are seriously interested, I would love to discuss.

oh don't worry quill, you couldn't possibly insult me

understand reason and respect logic??

sure pal because you're so big on reason and logic aren't you

your argument tactics consist of waffle, until the point you're over matched and then you resort to the leftist default of calling anyone you haven't managed to bore off the thread, some kind of "ist" or "phobe"

you will have to forgive me my lack of awe at your "intellect"

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Post by Guest on Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:03 am

PMSL a smelly response with as usual no response to the debate, guess as he said he does not understand is the reality, poor chap

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Post by Guest on Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:16 am

smelly_bandit wrote:secondly

we must look at what the left are saying here and be careful that their very nazi like propaganda is exposed

the left are attempting to portray the Muslims of europe and the world as victims instead of the very obvious aggressors that they are

i would like to use part of bens post to expose the perversion of logic

ben says


"in the face of what the West has done in Islamic countries, how can we possibly sit back and think nobody's going to get pissed off enough to strike back?"


this reaction that you believe is justifiable ben is what we call "cause and effect"

you have made the claim that the terrorist attacks across europe are justified (in Muslim minds) by what the west have done to Muslim lands

this is cause and effect

the effect is retaliation

the cause is the Wests actions in Muslim lands

that logic is exactly what is happening in europe in reference to the growing anger and resentment to Muslims

allow me to draw it in crayon for the left

if smelly bandit punches Ben in the face, is Ben going to like or dislike smelly bandit??

the answer is of course ben will dislike smelly bandit

the same reasoning can be applied to Muslims

over the last 30 odd years Muslims have been repeatedly punching the west in the face, attacking our people raping our children etc etc

over the past decade those punches have gotten more frequent and harder hitting

therefore the growing feelings of resentment and anger against the Muslim population is a direct reaction to the actions of these Muslim populations

it is cause and effect, action and reaction, consequences

what the left are attempting to do is reverse this natural order of things to achieve the opposite effect

the flawed logic used by the left is as follows

smelly bandit punches ben in the face

as a result ben dislikes smellybandit

*insert left logic here*

ben is a hatemonger for disliking smellybandit and smellybandit is the victim of bens undeserved hate

the logic of the left is broken and relies on ignoring reality and altering facts or fabricating facts and perverting chronology

for this to work the actions of the aggressor have to be ignored

so for the above example, the fact that smelly has punched ben in the face HAS to be ignored in order for ben to be vilified

OR

the punching in the face needs to be falsely justified by something ben has done to smelly previously  

if the actions of smelly ARE factored into the equation then ben cannot be the hatemonger since he is reacting naturally to aggression leveled against him  

and if smellys actions cannot be ignored then then they have to be justified and if justification is too difficult then they need to be fabricated

either way this propaganda is designed primarily to portray the victim as the aggressor or hatemonger

but ben has correctly spotted the flaw in the logic with his very astute observation



"in the face of what the West has done in Islamic countries, how can we possibly sit back and think nobody's going to get pissed off enough to strike back?"


indeed Ben, how in the face of the repeated Muslim attacks on western countries can anyone in the west possibly sit back and think nobody's going to get pissed off enough to start hating Muslims for their actions???

it is a dirty piece of propaganda that would make Goebbels green with envy

anyhoo

back to the thread

the last piece of the leftist propaganda effort relies on association fallacy and disassociation

sounds complicated?? its not really  

association fallacy is a basic tactic used by the left and Muslims to achieves their agendas and their objectives and it is your basic generalizing and stereotyping

the left tend to publicly use it to deflect criticism AWAY from their chosen ethnic groups

for example

"all whites are racist because of the KKK" (never hear a lefty argue against this one)

"all Muslims are terrorists because of A-Q"

"all blacks are savages because of the west side boys"

all of the above are examples of association fallacy and examples of the straw man argument attacked by the left whenever they are presented with honest criticism directed at their chosen ethnic group

any argumnet anyone presents against the lefts chosen ethnic group is replaced with a straw man that is similar to one of the above type of examples, which is then easy to attack and disprove, the actual argumnet is ignored out of hand  

this is one type of association fallacy

the other type is one that the left use without reservation when referencing Islam and Muslims and blacks and any other minority or ethnic group

it is the type that exploits the kind of Muslims that we do want, the kind that wake up, pray and go about their day without concern for what others are doing or not doing - your average peace loving, hard working citizen

these people who the  left claim to be defending are in fact nothing but commodities and resources, pawns to be used

so here is how it works

the left hold up a normal peaceful tolerant person who happens to be a Muslim, they hold them up and say "this is a Muslim"

they then use reverse association fallacy to superimpose all his positive qualities onto the entire worldwide Muslim population    

considering the vast majority of the entire worldwide population of Muslims live outside the western democracies, it stands to reason that the type of Muslim who lives in peace with his non Muslim neighbors and chooses tolerance over religious bigotry lives IN the western democracies, and therefore represents only a small minority of the total worldwide population of Muslims

when we consider this logical fact we see that in reality there is really no difference between a person saying

"all Muslims are terrorist because of AL-Q" and what the left do which is to say that "all Muslims are not terrorists because their poster boy puppet is not a terrorist"

both views are generalizing and incorrect, however the lefts argumnet is justified within their own minds since they apply a further layer of illogical reasoning which is disassociation

how this works is as follows

the left looks at their beloved Muslims and are trapped by the fact that the world is burning under the banner of Islam and Muslims are committing atrocities that even the left cannot sweep under the carpet  

the problem for the left comes from the simple fact that their poster boy is a Muslim but OBL and his clones are also ALL Muslims

so what the left do is they first create a sub division within the ranks of Muslims, dividing the Muslim population into "extremist" and "moderate" groups - which ironically relies entirely on stereotyping  ::D::

so now the left have created their two mythical groups of Muslims - one for protecting and one for condemning

unfortunately this master plan has been sabotaged by both groups of Muslims because when we see the fabricated stereotype of a "moderate Muslim" talking about beheading people or blowing himself up at a Scottish airport - the smoke dissipates and the mirrors are shattered, the myth fails and the truth is revealed

the truth is that both "groups" are actually religiously identical  

so the left, are left with no other option but disassociation, and they do this by separating and disassociating the actions,words,thoughts and deeds of the "extremist" group from Islam and Muslims and label them as "not Muslim"

very similar to a king stripping a noble of their titles or a priest being disavowed by the church

OBL??? not Muslim

abu hamza?? not Muslim

choudary?? not Muslim

etc etc etc

incredibly this IS the logic and strategy used by the left, unfortunately it doesn't work since no one on earth can fire a Muslim from being a Muslim

so in summary

the left take poster boy A and they say "this Muslim is not a Muslim"

Islamoprejudice & Anti-Semitism:  - Page 2 God-n-14


they then take poster boy B and they say "this Muslim is not only a real Muslim but is ALL Muslims"

Islamoprejudice & Anti-Semitism:  - Page 2 Arabia13


its very similar to what the nazis did

"this German is not a German"

Islamoprejudice & Anti-Semitism:  - Page 2 German11

"but THIS German IS a German"

Islamoprejudice & Anti-Semitism:  - Page 2 Hitler10

unfortunately


this Muslim  Islamoprejudice & Anti-Semitism:  - Page 2 God-n-14 and this Muslim Islamoprejudice & Anti-Semitism:  - Page 2 Arabia13

both read this book

Islamoprejudice & Anti-Semitism:  - Page 2 Quran-10

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Post by Guest on Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:27 am

smelly_bandit wrote:

back to the thread

the last piece of the leftist propaganda effort relies on association fallacy and disassociation

sounds complicated?? its not really  

association fallacy is a basic tactic used by the left and Muslims to achieves their agendas and their objectives and it is your basic generalizing and stereotyping

the left tend to publicly use it to deflect criticism AWAY from their chosen ethnic groups

for example

"all whites are racist because of the KKK" (never hear a lefty argue against this one)

"all Muslims are terrorists because of A-Q"

"all blacks are savages because of the west side boys"

all of the above are examples of association fallacy and examples of the straw man argument attacked by the left whenever they are presented with honest criticism directed at their chosen ethnic group

any argumnet anyone presents against the lefts chosen ethnic group is replaced with a straw man that is similar to one of the above type of examples, which is then easy to attack and disprove, the actual argumnet is ignored out of hand  

this is one type of association fallacy

the other type is one that the left use without reservation when referencing Islam and Muslims and blacks and any other minority or ethnic group

it is the type that exploits the kind of Muslims that we do want, the kind that wake up, pray and go about their day without concern for what others are doing or not doing - your average peace loving, hard working citizen

these people who the  left claim to be defending are in fact nothing but commodities and resources, pawns to be used

so here is how it works

the left hold up a normal peaceful tolerant person who happens to be a Muslim, they hold them up and say "this is a Muslim"

they then use reverse association fallacy to superimpose all his positive qualities onto the entire worldwide Muslim population    

considering the vast majority of the entire worldwide population of Muslims live outside the western democracies, it stands to reason that the type of Muslim who lives in peace with his non Muslim neighbors and chooses tolerance over religious bigotry lives IN the western democracies, and therefore represents only a small minority of the total worldwide population of Muslims

when we consider this logical fact we see that in reality there is really no difference between a person saying

"all Muslims are terrorist because of AL-Q" and what the left do which is to say that "all Muslims are not terrorists because their poster boy puppet is not a terrorist"

both views are generalizing and incorrect, however the lefts argumnet is justified within their own minds since they apply a further layer of illogical reasoning which is disassociation

how this works is as follows

the left looks at their beloved Muslims and are trapped by the fact that the world is burning under the banner of Islam and Muslims are committing atrocities that even the left cannot sweep under the carpet  

the problem for the left comes from the simple fact that their poster boy is a Muslim but OBL and his clones are also ALL Muslims

so what the left do is they first create a sub division within the ranks of Muslims, dividing the Muslim population into "extremist" and "moderate" groups - which ironically relies entirely on stereotyping  ::D::

so now the left have created their two mythical groups of Muslims - one for protecting and one for condemning

unfortunately this master plan has been sabotaged by both groups of Muslims because when we see the fabricated stereotype of a "moderate Muslim" talking about beheading people or blowing himself up at a Scottish airport - the smoke dissipates and the mirrors are shattered, the myth fails and the truth is revealed

the truth is that both "groups" are actually religiously identical  

so the left, are left with no other option but disassociation, and they do this by separating and disassociating the actions,words,thoughts and deeds of the "extremist" group from Islam and Muslims and label them as "not Muslim"

very similar to a king stripping a noble of their titles or a priest being disavowed by the church

OBL??? not Muslim

abu hamza?? not Muslim

choudary?? not Muslim

etc etc etc

incredibly this IS the logic and strategy used by the left, unfortunately it doesn't work since no one on earth can fire a Muslim from being a Muslim

so in summary

the left take poster boy A and they say "this Muslim is not a Muslim"

]



Hilarious and yet again smelly seeks to excuse the same arguments of prejudice against Muslims as the Nazi's did, that does not show that they are not of the same nature and hate.

All you are doing is using the examples of extreme Muslims to use hate prejudice similar arguments the Nazi's did against the Jews and not once have you been able to dispute that

PMSL


Try again dummy

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Post by Guest on Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:30 am

13. Guilt by Association

Arguing that all members of a group are like some other members of that group, or are responsible for what those others have done.

Example: Those who attacked the United States on September 11, 2001 were Muslims; therefore, all Muslims are potential terrorist threats to the United States.

Example: Fred Phelps, a Christian minister, argues that “God Hates Fags” and travels to gay funerals, including that of Matthew Shephard, to contend that these gay people are “burning in hell”; since Phelps is a Christian, then Christians are all hateful toward gay people.

http://www.uwec.edu/ranowlan/logical%20fallacies.html

Epic fail again by smelly

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