Islamoprejudice & Anti-Semitism:

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:15 pm

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ANTI-SEMITIC PROPAGANDA

Anti-Semitic propaganda maintained that:


—all Jews were responsible for the act of any Jew, e.g. “The murder of Ernst vom Rath did not slow legal measures aimed at solving the Jewish Problem, but rather sped them up. The Jews living in Germany had to pay a fine of a billion marks to discourage them from repeating the cowardly murder.” **

— Judaism was not a religion. “Argument 1: “You say that religion is a private matter. But you fight against the Jewish religion!” Counterargument: “Actually, the Jewish religion is nothing other than a doctrine to preserve the Jewish race.” (Adolf Hitler). “In resisting all government attempts to nationalize them, the Jews build a state within the state (Count Helmuth von Moltke). “To call this state a ‘religion’ was one of the cleverest tricks ever invented.” (Adolf Hitler). “From this first lie that Jewry is a religion, not a race, further lies inevitably follow.” (Adolf Hitler).”  **

— there was an International Jewish conspiracy to influence and then control governments, media,  the economy, etc.  **

— the Jews hated all non-Jews and they wanted to destroy the Gentiles and dominate the world **  Further “Whether or not there is an organized Jewish government recognized by all the Jews is less important that the fact that there is a unified and conscious Jewish desire for world power. This is proved by a variety of political events that are taking place in plain sight today.”  **

— due to inbreeding, Jews had more negative characteristics and passed on these negative characteristics to the next generation.  **

— a war against Judaism was a war against the devil **

— by distortions of the Torah and Talmud they claimed that Judaism teaches hatred **

— “The goal of the Jew is to make himself the ruler of humanity. Wherever he comes, he destroys works of culture. He is not a creative spirit, rather a destructive spirit.”  **  “The struggle for world domination will be fought entirely between us, between Germans and Jews.  All else is facade and illusion. Behind England stands Israel, and behind France, and behind the United States.  Even when we have driven the Jew out of Germany, he remains our world enemy.”  Adolf Hitler **

— “Nearly all major inventions were made by Aryans.”  The Jews had no real creativity **   “Wherever Jewry has appeared, it has never built anything. It has always and everywhere destroyed or torn down, sucking others dry to fill itself. From the days of the Romans to our day, Jewry in every century, in every people, was and remained a foreign body, a destroyer of real and ideal values, a denier of any upward progress, a plague for body and soul. It sneaks in through deceit and treachery, trickery and slyness, murder and assault, understanding how to establish itself.”  **

— a good Jew could not be a good German, that it was impossible for a Jew to honestly say “I am a “good German” and a “decent Jew”! Only a Jew has the insolence to make such a claim. I answer it only to reach the public and finally dispatch the absurd notion of the “decent Jew.” The fable of the “decent Jew” is not a German fable that has been handed down by our people and therefore something with educational value, but rather it is a shameless lie designed to lull the host people to sleep and appeal to hysterical weaklings.”  **  And further “And you think you can be a “good German”! True, you do speak German, just as your racial comrades in other countries speak English, French, Spanish, and Polish, but you are no more a German than they are Englishmen, Frenchmen, Spaniards, or Poles, since Jews are a foreign body in every people.” **

—  “Jewish law enjoins or permits Jews to murder non-Jews whenever feasible” **

—  “Jews are permitted to lie without moral or religious compunction” **

—  “Judaism condones the sexual molestation of young girls” ** “The Jewish youth lies in wait for hours on end….spying on the unsuspicious German girl he plans to seduce….he wants to contaminate her blood and remove her from the bosom of her own people. The Jew hates the white race and wants to lower its cultural level so that the Jews might dominate.” - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf **

—  there was no way to tell the true nature of Jews as they presented a false face. **

—  Jews were uniquely violent and untrustworthy compared to all the other peoples of the world. **

— Jews could not serve loyally in the military of Germany, and they were removed. **

— anti-Semitism was a reasonable response to a clear and present danger.  **  If Jews raised the issue of anti-Semitism they were doing it for devious reasons.  The Jewish people, once only tolerated, knew how to raise a hue and cry about discrimination and persecution, winning the sympathy of the world for the “poor Jews.” They increasingly infiltrated deep within our national organism, growing to have power over every single area of our national life. **

— there was a “Jewish problem” and that any measures taken against the Jews were reasonable and defensive.  **

— Jews are a “disease” infecting any nation they inhabit.  “For us, it is a problem of whether our nation can ever recover its health, whether the Jewish spirit can ever really be eradicated.  Don’t be misled into thinking you can fight a disease without killing the carrier, without destroying the bacillus.  Don’t think you can fight racial tuberculosis without taking care to rid the nation of the carrier of that racial tuberculosis.  This Jewish contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Jew, has been banished from our midst.”  Adolph Hitler **  “Each Jew individually, and Jewry as a whole, is without a home. Jewry undermines every people and every state that it infiltrates. It feeds as a parasite and a culture-killing worm in the host people. It grows and grows like weeds in the state, the community, and the family and infests the blood of humanity everywhere.  In brief, that is the pestilential nature of Jewry, against which every people, every state, every nation must, should, and wants to defend itself if it does not want to be the victim of this bloody plague.”  **







ANTI-Muslim/ISLAMOPHOBIC PROPAGANDA


“Islam constitutes a threat to the world at large.”  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

When Shi’ite Muslims were persecuted by Sunnis, they developed the doctrine of taqiyya, or concealment: They could lie about what they believed, denying aspects of their faith that were offensive to Sunnis…Closely related to this is the doctrine of kitman, or mental reservation, which is telling the truth, but not the whole truth, with an intention to mislead…Remember that the next time you see a Muslim spokesman on television professing his friendship with non-Muslim Americans and his loyalty to the United States. Of course, he may be telling the truth–but he may not be telling the whole truth or he may be just lying.  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

There are “many elements of traditional and mainstream Islam that are at variance with our system of government, our Constitution, and our entire way of life.”  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“There is no reliable way to distinguish a “moderate” Muslim who rejects the jihad ideology and Islamic supremacism from a “radical” Muslim who holds such ideas, even if he isn’t acting upon them at the moment.”  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“The misbegotten term “Islamo-fascism” is wholly redundant: Islam itself is a kind of fascism that achieves its full and proper form only when it assumes the powers of the state.” Robert Spencer,AFDI, SIOA, SION  

“There is no distinction in the American Muslim community between peaceful Muslims and jihadists.” Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“(Islam) is the only major world religion with a developed doctrine and tradition of warfare against unbelievers.”  Robert Spencer, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“Islam is of the devil” Rev. Terry Jones

“Islam is evil” Rev. Franklin Graham

“There is no escaping the unfortunate fact that Muslim government employees in law enforcement, the military and the diplomatic corps need to be watched for connections to terrorism.”  Rev. Franklin Graham

“Nearly all (emphasis added) of the Islamic organizations in the United States that define themselves as religiously or culturally Muslim in character have, today, been totally captured or dominated by radical fundamentalist elements…”  Steven Emerson

“U.S. Muslims are strategically aligning with LGBT people as part of their jihadist campaign to subjugate the West.”  Joseph Farrah, WND

”Devout Muslims should be prohibited from military service. Would Patton have recruited Nazis into his army?”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

Good Muslims lie to advance Islam, It’s the law. Atlas readers often hear me refer to taqiya - lies to advance Islam.” Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

I believe that “Al-Qaeda is a manifestation of devout Islam ... It is Islam.”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“Arabic is not just another language like French or Italian, it is the spearhead of an ideological project that is deeply opposed to the United States.”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

I believe that “Hitler WAS inspired by Islam”  Pamela Geller, AFDI,SIOA, SION

“The ability to enjoy and produce knowledge and abstract thinking is simply lower in the Islamic world.”  Nicolai Sennels

One significant conclusion of my research was that having been raised in a Muslim environment – with Muslim parents and traditions – includes the risk of developing certain antisocial patterns.  Nicolai Sennels

As in many other nauseating situations, Islamonausea is a normal and natural reaction to something abnormal, not vice versa.  The nausea reflex is innate, and it is biologically natural and healthy to experience emotional and bodily discomfort with anything that is unpleasant, unhealthy or harmful.  ... The word Islamonausea can be used to describe a feeling of nausea, disgust, displeasure, discomfort or aversion that arises by itself when encountering Islam or Islamic culture, or whatever or whoever represents it. Nicolai Sennels

“Racism is the lowest form of human stupidity, but Islamophobia is the height of common sense.”  [SIOE motto]

“I would like to feel all warm and fuzzy and embrace the moderate Muslim/ meme but they show no evidence of their existence - not in any real number anyway. The only voices of reason in the Muslim world are lapsed Muslims or apostates.  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“It’s the Muslims who are dragging the rest of the world with them, in their genocidal dreams of annihilating goodness, creativity, production, inventiveness, benevolence, charity, medicine, technology, and all of the gifts of the Jews.  Our goodness makes them ill.”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

I believe that “Islam is a mental illness”.  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

“The artifacts featured in this exhibit are stolen. Period. Stolen from the cultures conquered and Islamized, and the lands appropriated by the Muslims. The Met is passing off this stolen intellectual property as Islamic. It isn’t.”  Pamela Geller, AFDI, SIOA, SION

I believe that Islam is “the most insidious doctrine of hate. Islam can’t be reformed, but it can be eradicated. It can’t be molded, but it can be smashed.”  Ali Sina, SION

“We do not want to reform Islam. We want to eradicate it. Just as cancer cannot be reformed and the only way to cure the patient is to eradicate it, Islam cant be reformed either and it must be eradicated for the world to be saved.”  Ali Sina, FMU, SION

I believe that “Islam, like fascism, appeals to people with low self esteem and low intelligence.  Ali Sina, FMU, SION

I believe that “Every “moderate” Muslim is a potential terrorist.” Ali Sina, FMU, SION

I believe that “On the so-called Global War on Terrorism, GWOT, we have been quite clear along with a few other resolute souls. This should be a WAR AGAINST Islam and all Muslim faithful…At a practical level, this means that Shari’a and Islamic law are immediately outlawed. Any Muslim in America who adopts historical and traditional Shari’a will be subject to deportation. Mosques which adhere to Islamic law will be shut down permanently. No self-described or practicing Muslim, irrespective of his or her declarations to the contrary, will be allowed to immigrate to this country…” David Yerushalmi, SANE

I believe that “Muslim civilization is at war with Judeo-Christian civilization…The Muslim peoples, those committed to Islam as we know it today, are our enemies.”  David Yerushalmi, SANE

“We love you Muslims because you are humans like us. We are all related to each other. We are all limbs of the body of mankind. But you are diseased. You are infected by a deadly cult that threatens our lives. Your humanity is destroyed. Like a limb infected by flesh eating disease, now you are a threat to the rest of mankind. We will do everything to save you, to make you see your folly, and to make you understand that you are victims of a gigantic lie, so you leave this lie, stop hating mankind and plotting for its destruction and it domination. But if all efforts fail and if you become a threat to our lives and the lives of our children, we must amputate you.”  Ali Sina, FMU, SION

There is a need for an “old fashioned war with wholesale slaughter including indiscriminate death of innocents and babes. down to the last Muslim, if necessary.”  John Joseph Jay, AFDI

The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.  ...  The Islamofeces cockroaches are on the march and if we do not kill them all, they shall kill us.  George M. Weinert V

“I’ve got an idea, let’s kill all Muslims.”  Jay Severin

“Rot in hell, Osama bin Laden.  One down, 1.8 billion to go ... many of ‘em inside U.S. borders, with the U.S. government at all levels kissing their asses.”  Debbie Schlussel

“I do not believe that our country can truly fulfill its divine purpose until we understand America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion destroyed.”  Rev. Rod Parsley

“Absolutely. If a Muslim who has—who is—a practicing Muslim who believes the word of the Koran to be the word of Allah, who abides by Islam, who goes to mosque and prays every Friday, who prays five times a day—this practicing Muslim, who believes in the teachings of the Koran, cannot be a loyal citizen to the United States of America.”  Brigitte Gabrie, ACT for Americal

Westerners “don’t want to judge anybody based on their [religion].  [But] Islam is not a religion. Islam is a very dangerous political ideology…. There is no such thing as radical Islam and regular Islam or spiritual Islam….There is only one Islam.”  Wafa Sultan, FMU

“What has the Arab world contributed except terror? The theocratic, repressive Arabic states do no significant science, no significant arts and culture.”  “Osama bin Laden is a very good Muslim - a model one, in fact, and one of the most devout in the 1400 years of Islam.”  David Horowitz, Freedom Center

“Sure America’s First Amendment protects freedom of religion. But the Founding Fathers and signatories of the Constitution undoubtedly would not have included rights in it for members of a religion that demands the destruction, persecution and invasion of the United States of America -and at best, the establishment of a shadow Constitution parallel to the American one, namely Islamic sharia law. No, that most certainly was not in the minds of America’s Founding Fathers.”  Eliana Benador

“America and the West are doomed to failure in this war unless they stand up and identify the real enemy: Islam.”  Brigitte Gabriel, ACT for America

“We are in a war against a political, theocratic, authoritarian ideology and it is called Islam!”  Rep. Allen West, (R-FL)

“The Muslim Representative from Minnesota was elected by the voters of that district and if American citizens don’t wake up and adopt the Virgil Goode position on immigration there will likely be many more Muslims elected to office and demanding the use of the Koran.”  Rep. Virgil H. Goode, Jr

“There are too many mosques in this country.”  -  “85 percent of American Muslim community leaders are an enemy living amongst us”  -  “no (American) Muslims cooperate in the war on terror”.  -  “I would say, you could say that 80-85 percent of mosques in this country are controlled by Islamic fundamentalists … Those who are in control.  The average Muslim, no, they are loyal, but they don’t work, they don’t come forward, they don’t tell the police.”  Rep. Peter King

“We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.”  Ann Coulter

Taught military personnel that they should take a “war on Islam” “to the civilian population wherever necessary,” which he likened to the bombardment of Dresden and nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Army Lt. Col. Matthew A. Dooley

So once one acknowledges the obvious, that there is fascistic behavior among a core of Muslims — specifically, a cult of violence and the wanton use of physical force to impose an ideology on others — the term “Islamo-Fascism” is entirely appropriate.  Dennis Prager

We would be looked upon as uncouth for suggesting that the only language all Muslims understand is that of blood and death and only death can stop them. As long as they survive on this planet, they will be a destabilizing influence and never allow civilized people to breathe freely. There is no hope of transforming the Muslims into a good peace-loving and noble community. As long as a Muslim lives, killing infidels comes to him/her as naturally as does attacking its prey comes to a wild and hungry beast. Muslims are brainwashed to do this by the Quran - the instruction manual of hate and terror. They can never be transformed into good citizens. And so the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim. This is the harsh reality. And so we need to face the seemingly heartless and brutal fact of life that all Muslims need to be given the choice of leaving Islam voluntarily or being put out of harm’s way, i.e. put out of the way from harming anybody else! No other way has the prospect of resolving the Muslim problem across the globe.  War on Jihad site

It’s Time to Put the Coffee Down and Eradicate Islam in the West. This article included the passage “It’s time to join the war, not on “terror” (that oh-so soothing illusion,) but on Islam in the West. Most urgently, we must defend Israel as the frontline in the war against the spread of Islam.”  Jeanette Pryor on David Horowitz’ blog

“ Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene…. All immigrants bring exotic customs and attitudes, but Muslim customs are more troublesome than most.”  Daniel Pipes, MEF

Islam is “a violent political system bent on the overthrow of the governments of the world and world domination.  You’re dealing with not a religion, you’re dealing with a political system, and I think we should treat it as such, and treat its adherents as such as we would members of the communist party, members of some fascist group.”  Rev. Pat Robertson

“Do you really want someone representing you, who swears an oath on a Quran — a book that undermines our Constitution and says you should be killed? I’m Gary Boisclair, and I approve this message.”  Gary Boisclair (D-MI)

“It has been left to us to educate the uneducated of this country to the difference between Sikhism, Hinduism and Islam. Islam is a disease….it is a disease. Winston Churchill once said, ‘Islam in a man is the same as rabies in a dog’.”  Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (aka Tommy Robinson), EDL

“... every single Muslim watching this on YouTube: on 7/7 you got away with killing and maiming British citizens, you got away with it. Next time you think about it you’d better understand that we have built a network from one end of this country to the other end. We will not tolerate it and the Islamic community will feel the full force of the English Defence League if we see any of our citizens killed, maimed or hurt on British soil ever again.”  - Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (aka Tommy Robinson), EDL


Last edited by Didge on Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:44 pm

there is no "interpreting"

i have shown you how muhhamd treated people

he said that he would fight them until they submitted to Islam paid the jizya or were killed

doesnt sounds like a rose garden to me

sounds like a choice between forced conversion and oppression or slaughter

if i put a gun to your head and said "you can either convert to Christianity,become my slave and pay me your wages or die"

are you really going to think "what a great guy smelly bandit is"

dont be stupid didge

you're defending forced conversion and oppression by trying to repackage it as something good

tell me didge

you're a non Christian living in Christian lands, if your life is so bad and you're being so badly persecuted then why don't you move to Syria or egypt where you cliam you will be treated better than you are now?

as for the old Christian communities in Muslim lands??

the old Christian communities in Iraq have been decimated by Muslims even though those communities were paying the jizya

all you have done is waffle and fabricate essays without any credibility, certainly there is nothing in any of your posts that are grounded in Islamic scripture

in fact there is no Islamic scripture of any kind in any of the posts you made

so nothing you have posted is based on Islam

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:47 pm

You have shown bugger all accept quote some verses out of context as seen by historicity which proves you wrong on every level.

It shows as stated people have different interpretations, even worse you are saying the earliest followers that Muhammad himself held in high esteem are now all liars, one moment


 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 


I mean why are some of the oldest churches in existence still found in Muslims lands, again refuting any bollocks that you are stating and showing that because of western influence in Muslim countries has seen a rise in recent years of persecutions of Christians


You cannot refute history as you badly do, it is the one thing that shows up your poor arguments smelly

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:56 pm

Muhammads earliest followers immediately waged war on each other after his death

how do you think the sunni shia divide came about???

they were not men of peace they were psychopaths like muhhamad

you are answering your own question on the church issue




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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:03 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:Muhammads earliest followers immediately waged war on each other after his death

how do you think the sunni shia divide came about???

they were not men of peace they were psychopaths like muhhamad

you are answering your own question on the church issue




Goal post change alert, so now it is not about non-Muslims but how Muslims fight each other, just as Christians have done also for centuries.


Sorry what argument do you want to debate here, because clearly you have ducked out of the non_Muslim one now


I have work to do, so please post something viable to your points and you are really clutching at straws



Byee

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:11 pm

Didge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:Muhammads earliest followers immediately waged war on each other after his death

how do you think the sunni shia divide came about???

they were not men of peace they were psychopaths like muhhamad

you are answering your own question on the church issue




Goal post change alert, so now it is not about non-Muslims but how Muslims fight each other, just as Christians have done also for centuries.


Sorry what argument do you want to debate here, because clearly you have ducked out of the non_Muslim one now


I have work to do, so please post something viable to your points and you are really clutching at straws



Byee

not ducking anything

im providing background

you're claim is that Muhammad followers treated non Muslims fairly even though muhhamd never did and even though the first thing they did when he died was start killing each other

how is it possible that Muslims who are happy to murder other Muslims and cannot even treat each other fairly will be able to treat subjugated non Muslims who they were warring with fairly??

when you're done running way please explain how that logic works??

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:14 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
Didge wrote:

Goal post change alert, so now it is not about non-Muslims but how Muslims fight each other, just as Christians have done also for centuries.


Sorry what argument do you want to debate here, because clearly you have ducked out of the non_Muslim one now


I have work to do, so please post something viable to your points and you are really clutching at straws



Byee

not ducking anything

im providing background

you're claim is that Muhammad followers treated non Muslims fairly even though muhhamd never did and even though the first thing they did when he died was start killing each other

how is it possible that Muslims who are happy to murder other Muslims and cannot even treat each other fairly will be able to treat subjugated non Muslims who they were warring with fairly??

when you're done running way please explain how that logic works??


No you are now changing the context of the debate from claiming how Muslims treat Non-Muslims, which shows you have utterly no case.

Muslims are also not meant to kill each other and I do not run away, I just easily show up your poor arguments, even worse where you have no case against Muslims on Non-Muslims, you now change the debate to something else, which to me is hilarious, as all you are doing is proving even more my point on how people interpret religion different, just as they do within many faiths, so thanks for that, you make it too easy


Come one, for once be grown up and debate like a man eh

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:44 pm

Didge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

not ducking anything

im providing background

you're claim is that Muhammad followers treated non Muslims fairly even though muhhamd never did and even though the first thing they did when he died was start killing each other

how is it possible that Muslims who are happy to murder other Muslims and cannot even treat each other fairly will be able to treat subjugated non Muslims who they were warring with fairly??

when you're done running way please explain how that logic works??


No you are now changing the context of the debate from claiming how Muslims treat Non-Muslims, which shows you have utterly no case.

Muslims are also not meant to kill each other and I do not run away, I just easily show up your poor arguments, even worse where you have no case against Muslims on Non-Muslims, you now change the debate to something else, which to me is hilarious, as all you are doing is proving even more my point on how people interpret religion different, just as they do within many faiths, so thanks for that, you make it too easy


Come one, for once be grown up and debate like a man eh

once again your doing a "choose a side" fuck up and now reading what im saying to you

im asking you how it is possible that Muslims who cannot even treat each other fairly will treat subjugated non Muslims fairly??

your argumnet becomes even more baseless when we look at the following

66:2
Allah hath made lawful for you (Muslims) absolution from your oaths (of such a kind), and Allah is your Protector. He is the Knower, the Wise.

2:225
Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

so essentially any oaths made by Muslims can be discarded at will including the pact of protection made by paying jizya - which manifests itself in the persecution of religious minorities that we see happening in all Muslim countries

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:48 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
Didge wrote:


No you are now changing the context of the debate from claiming how Muslims treat Non-Muslims, which shows you have utterly no case.

Muslims are also not meant to kill each other and I do not run away, I just easily show up your poor arguments, even worse where you have no case against Muslims on Non-Muslims, you now change the debate to something else, which to me is hilarious, as all you are doing is proving even more my point on how people interpret religion different, just as they do within many faiths, so thanks for that, you make it too easy


Come one, for once be grown up and debate like a man eh

once again your doing a "choose a side" fuck up and now reading what im saying to you

im asking you how it is possible that Muslims who cannot even treat each other fairly will treat subjugated non Muslims fairly??

your argumnet becomes even more baseless when we look at the following

66:2
Allah hath made lawful for you (Muslims) absolution from your oaths (of such a kind), and Allah is your Protector. He is the Knower, the Wise.

2:225
Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

so essentially any oaths made by Muslims can be discarded at will including the pact of protection made by paying jizya - which manifests itself in the persecution of religious minorities that we see happening in all Muslim countries


Because your argument is utterly absurd, as countless Muslims through history have treated each other very well, again you go off how some do, which is no different to how Christians did the same, showing again how lame your argument is.

Now I am with you if you condemn all 3 Abrahamic faiths, of which I do, you though poorly only condemn one, when all have had followers commit wrongs.

Paying a tax, which is less than what Muslims pay is actually a benefit, because you less well hit than the Muslims, you are exempt military service and you are also protected with this tax, just as all people of this nation are today when they pay tax, or do you now believe we are wrong to pay taxes?

Behave you really are talking bollocks now

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:04 pm

Didge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

once again your doing a "choose a side" fuck up and now reading what im saying to you

im asking you how it is possible that Muslims who cannot even treat each other fairly will treat subjugated non Muslims fairly??

your argumnet becomes even more baseless when we look at the following

66:2
Allah hath made lawful for you (Muslims) absolution from your oaths (of such a kind), and Allah is your Protector. He is the Knower, the Wise.

2:225
Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

so essentially any oaths made by Muslims can be discarded at will including the pact of protection made by paying jizya - which manifests itself in the persecution of religious minorities that we see happening in all Muslim countries


Because your argument is utterly absurd, as countless Muslims through history have treated each other very well, again you go off how some do, which is no different to how Christians did the same, showing again how lame your argument is.

Now I am with you if you condemn all 3 Abrahamic faiths, of which I do, you though poorly only condemn one, when all have had followers commit wrongs.

Paying a tax, which is less than what Muslims pay is actually a benefit, because you less well hit than the Muslims, you are exempt military service and you are also protected with this tax, just as all people of this nation are today when they pay tax, or do you now believe we are wrong to pay taxes?

Behave you really are talking bollocks now

protected from whom??

the only people who had to pay jizya were people living in lands CONQUERED by Muslim armies

the only threat to those people WERE the Muslim conquerors, so they had to either convert to Islam or pay the Muslim authorities protection money and accept restricted rights or face slaughter

you keep ignoring the fact that religious minorities in Muslim lands are brutally persecuted across the world on a daily basis by Muslims

the only threat non Muslims need protecting from in Muslim lands are Muslims






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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:09 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
Didge wrote:


Because your argument is utterly absurd, as countless Muslims through history have treated each other very well, again you go off how some do, which is no different to how Christians did the same, showing again how lame your argument is.

Now I am with you if you condemn all 3 Abrahamic faiths, of which I do, you though poorly only condemn one, when all have had followers commit wrongs.

Paying a tax, which is less than what Muslims pay is actually a benefit, because you less well hit than the Muslims, you are exempt military service and you are also protected with this tax, just as all people of this nation are today when they pay tax, or do you now believe we are wrong to pay taxes?

Behave you really are talking bollocks now

protected from whom??

the only people who had to pay jizya were people living in lands CONQUERED by Muslim armies

the only threat to those people WERE the Muslim conquerors, so they had to either convert to Islam or pay the Muslim authorities protection money and accept restricted rights or face slaughter

you keep ignoring the fact that religious minorities in Muslim lands are brutally persecuted across the world on a daily basis by Muslims

the only threat non Muslims need protecting from in Muslim lands are Muslims







Odd do not our taxes go towards our own armed forces and Police to protect us, again stop talking bollocks.

Again the Christians did the exact same thing when they created new Frankish Kingdoms during the Crusades.

There was no threat to them from the Muslim conquerors, the money was for protection from attack outside, hence why the money was paid back as shown when they could not protect them. Again the only people exempt from paying this served in the armed forces, showing again you are talking babble.

I am not denying today there has been a rise in persecutions to religious minorities, not once have I denied this, but history shows in the past it was very different, especially at the origins of Islam, more so compared to the west where they ousted or made convert many Jews and Muslims, showing you have not a scooby doo what you are talking about.

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:55 pm

yes our taxes go towards financing our military which protects us from outside forces

the Muslims armies where the outside forces who then demanded a tax from the population they had conquered to not slaughter them

waffle as much as you want didge

but the jizya is an extortion tax taken by Muslims in exchange for not killing non Muslims who refuse to convert to Islam

the qur'an clearly says that Muslim armies must fight non Muslims until they either convert to Islam or pay the jizya and accept second class status or face massacre

its the price for refusing to be forced to convert to Islam during occupation






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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:58 pm

an extortion tax which they back back if they are not able to protect them, one moment


 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 


Sorry when you have something intelligent to say, then please do post it because you are talking out of your arse.....




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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:05 pm

Didge wrote:an extortion tax which they back back if they are not able to protect them, one moment


 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 


Sorry when you have something intelligent to say, then please do post it because you are talking out of your arse.....




The Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, which controls the city of Al-Raqqa, announced that it had signed a "Security" pact with the Christian residents of Al-Raqqa in return for their embracing the laws of dhimma – protection. In a statement dated February 23, 2014, that ISIS published in the city, the organization said that it posed three alternatives to Christians who had fled Al-Raqqa, but now sought to return:

Convert to Islam
Accept the conditions of dhimma
Reject these offers and face war

The statement claimed the agreement to sign the pact was reached at a meeting between representatives of ISIS and the Christian community.

The pact's wording and clauses follow dhimma pacts made by medieval Islamic states, with a few modifications that take consideration of modern developments, such as the ban on using megaphones to broadcast prayers. The text opens with a polemic against Christianity, quoting Quranic verses claiming Islam's superiority over Christianity and the veracity of Islamic theological positions.

It then states: "This is the protection that Abdallah Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi, the commander of the faithful, granted the Christians of Al-Raqqa. He granted security to their lives, their property, their churches and their progeny in Al-Raqqa. Their churches and their surroundings will not be destroyed or harmed, nor will their property. They will not be coerced with regard to their religion [i.e. they will not be forced to convert to Islam], and none of them will be harmed."

The pact incorporates the following restrictions on the Christians:

They are forbidden to build new churches or rebuild destroyed ones.
They must not showcase crosses or religious books, and they are forbidden to use megaphones to broadcast their prayers.
They must not read their books out loud in front of Muslims or sound their bells.
They must not carry out any hostile actions against ISIS, or provide refuge to spies or persons wanted by ISIS. They must inform ISIS of any "conspiracy" against it.
They must refrain from any display of worship outside their church.
They may not prevent any member of their community from converting to Islam.
They must honor Islam and the Muslims, and not offend their religion in any way.
The Christians committed to pay a poll tax of "4 golden dinars" i.e. 17 grams of gold for the wealthy, 8.5 for middle income owners, and half of that for the poor.
They are forbidden to carry weapons.
They are forbidden to sell pork or wine to the Muslims or publicly consume them.
They must comply with any additional restrictions that ISIS may impose on their dress, trade or other matters.

In conclusion ISIS stated that as long as the Christians comply with these restrictions they will be protected. If they violate them, they will be treated as enemies at war.

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/7859.htm

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:06 pm

A jihadist group in Syria has demanded that Christians in the northern city of Raqqa pay a levy in gold and accept curbs on their faith, or face death.

The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIS) said it would give Christian residents "protection" if they agreed to the list of conditions.

The announcement came in a statement posted online.

Correspondents say ISIS is trying to implement an extreme interpretation of Islamic law in areas it controls.

Raqqa, seized by ISIS last year, was the first provincial capital to be completely in the hands of rebels.
'Risking the sword'

The directive from ISIS, citing the Islamic concept of "dhimma", requires Christians in the city to pay tax of around half an ounce (14g) of pure gold in exchange for their safety.

t says Christians must not make renovations to churches, display crosses or other religious symbols outside churches, ring church bells or pray in public.

Christians must not carry arms, and must follow other rules imposed by ISIS (also known as ISIL) on their daily lives.

The statement said the group had met Christian representatives and offered them three choices - they could convert to Islam, accept ISIS' conditions, or reject their control and risk being killed.

"If they reject, they are subject to being legitimate targets, and nothing will remain between them and ISIS other than the sword," the statement said.

A group of 20 Christian leaders chose to accept the new set of rules, ISIS said.

Raqqa was once home to about 300,000 people, with less than 1% Christian, according to AFP news agency.

Many Christians fled after ISIS started attacking and burning churches.

The group has been accused of serious abuses in the areas it controls.

Raqqa has seen fierce violence between ISIS and rival groups fighting the forces of President Bashar al-Assad.

More than 2,000 people are believed to have been killed since Western-backed and Islamist groups attacked ISIS strongholds in early January.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26366197

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:07 pm

Sorry are we back to the modern world and where you are unable to disprove the historicity I showed.

All that shows is there are Muslims with your view point, again their interpretation.

Try again

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:08 pm

Slaughter in Syria: 45 Christians Killed by Islamists in Sadad and Thrown into Mass Graves

SADAD, Syria (Catholic Online) - We have regularly covered the plight of Christians in Syria and will continue to do so. That is because they are our brothers and sisters. We are called to "bear one another's burdens and fulfill the law of Christ." (Gal. 6:2) As we evaluate the various conflicts in the Middle East it is vitally important to be informed by news sources which paint the full picture of what is happening.

Christians preceded Muslims in calling Syria their home. They must not be forced to leave this ancient and holy land. We are living in a new missionary age and there is a growing persecution of the Church on a global scale. It has different faces. Whether in the West, where the memory of Christian influence fades under increasing persecution inflicted by rabid secularism and godless materialism and nihilism, or in the East, which bleeds under the overt persecution from Jihadists, the challenge we face grows daily and cries out for prayer, solidarity and action.

It is important for us to remember that Christians in Syria were there long before the Muslims. We have a two thousand year history in the Middle East. Syria was the home of many monks, mystics and missionaries of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Some of the most beautiful of the Patristic writings were penned by Syrian Saints and the Liturgy and hymnody of the early Church was enriched by the worship of those same wonderful saints. Now, our brethren are shedding their blood because they profess the Christian faith. We Must Not Remain Silent!

Christians in Syria now make up less than 10% of the population. They are suffering intense, ongoing and fierce persecution. A 2012 report in the British newspaper, The Independent entitled, The plight of Syria's Christians gives a very different assessment than we what too often read in the news in the United States. The situation facing Christians in Syria grows more urgent daily.

The reporter, Kim Sengupta, interviewed the Haddads, a Christian family which was then fleeing Homs:

We left because they were trying to kill us," said 18-year-old Noura Haddad. She is now staying with relations in the town of Zahle in the Bekaa Valley: "They wanted to kill us because we were Christians. They were calling us Kaffirs, even little children saying these things. Those who were our neighbors turned against us. At the end, when we ran away, we went through balconies. We did not even dare go out on the street in front of our house. I've kept in touch with the few Christian friends left back home, but I cannot speak to my Muslim friends any more. I feel very sorry about that."

Melkite Catholic Archbishop Archbishop Issam John Darwish told the Independent that the increase of violence against Christians is the work of Jihadists. He stated, "I have raised this with officials in the West, they must bring peace. The jihadis will not stop here, the war will spread to Europe. What will England be like in ten or 15 years?"

In October of 2012, the body of a beloved Greek Orthodox priest, Fr Fadi Haddad, 43, was found along the side of a road. He had been mutilated. His eyes were gouged out. A young mother and close family friend told Aid to the Church in Need:

My family and friends very much feel under threat. People from the area have said that extremists have gone through the streets shouting 'Alawites to the grave, Christians to Beirut'. They want to kick us out. They say that if Christians refuse to leave they will end up in the grave like the Alawites. (a Shia sect)

Nobody seems to care what is happening to us Christians in Syria. The government we had in the past was bad but at least we were safe. At least we could walk the streets. You'd never think you might be bombed by extremists. Not anymore. Now it's very scary. Now they are bombing churches. Look at what has happened to our churches in places like Aleppo and Homs. The extremists threaten us Christians when we want to celebrate major feasts like Christmas and Easter. They don't want us in the area at all.

Greek Orthodox Patriarch Ignatius IV Hazim presided over Fr Haddad's funeral Liturgy. He had ordained him to the Holy Priesthood in 1995. He called the slain priest a "martyr of reconciliation and harmony". He added: "We strongly condemn this brutal and barbaric act against civilians, the innocent and the men of God who strive to be apostles of peace." A bomb went off during Fr. Haddad's funeral.

The News Service of the Pontifical Mission Society, Agenzia Fides, is one of the most reliable and consistent sources of news on the horrible, ongoing, intensifying persecution of Christians in Syria. On October 31, 2013, they published a report of a recent massacre of 45 Christians by Islamist militias. It is set forth below:

*****

"What happened in Sadad is the most serious and biggest massacre of Christians in Syria in the past two years and a half": this was stressed by Archbishop Selwanos Boutros Alnemeh, Syriac Orthodox Metropolitan of Homs and Hama, in illustrating to Fides the tragic death toll in the Christian town of Sadad, invaded by Islamist militias a week ago and then re-conquered by the Syrian army.

"45 innocent civilians were martyred for no reason, and among them several women and children, many thrown into mass graves. Other civilians were threatened and terrorized. 30 were wounded and 10 are still missing. For one week, 1,500 families were held as hostages and human shields.

Among them children, the elderly, the young, men and women. Some of them fled on foot travelling 8 km. from Sadad to Al-Hafer to find refuge. About 2,500 families fled from Sadad, taking only their clothes, due to the irruption of armed groups and today they are refugees scattered between Damascus, Homs, Fayrouza, Zaydal, Maskane, and Al-Fhayle".

The archbishop continued: "There is no electricity, water and telephone in the city. All the houses of Sadad were robbed and property looted. The churches are damaged and desecrated, deprived of old books and precious furniture. Schools, government buildings, municipal buildings have been destroyed, along with the post office, the hospital and the clinic".

"What happened in Sadad - he says - is the largest massacre of Christians in Syria and the second in the Middle East, after the one in the Church of Our Lady of Salvation in Iraq, in 2010".

Archbishop Selwanos Boutros Alnemeh concluded: "We have shouted aid to the world but no one has listened to us. Where is the Christian conscience? Where is human consciousness? Where are my brothers? I think of all those who are suffering today in mourning and discomfort: We ask everyone to pray for us".

Sadad is a small town of 15,000 people, mostly Syriac Orthodox Christians, located 160 km north of Damascus. It has 14 churches and a monastery with four priests.

http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=53030

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DAMASCUS, SYRIA (Worthy News)– Eighty Christians were killed and thousands more displaced after Islamic militants attacked the strategic Syrian town of Kessab near the Turkish border on March 21, according to Barnabas Aid.

About 2,000 Armenian Christians fled Kessab as their homes were looted and their churches desecrated. Barnabas Aid partners are providing food, clothing and other essentials since many hurriedly left their homes empty-handed.

Following the Islamist takeover of the town, Syria launched a counter-offensive to regain control of the region. But national tensions increased after the Turkish military shot down a Syrian jet that had strayed over the border during a mission over Kessab.

Turkey has sided with the Islamist rebels in the Syrian civil war, providing them with supplies and allowing hundreds of rebels to freely cross its borders.

The Armenian National Committee of America has written President Barack Obama calling on him to stop Turkey — a member of NATO — from facilitating attacks by foreign fighters associated with US-designated terrorist groups.

The ANCA said Turkey's actions were a bitter reminder of the Armenian genocide (1894 to 1923) when Turks killed more than 1.5 million Armenian and Assyrian Christians.

http://www.worthynews.com/12839-syrian-islamists-kill-80-Christians-displace-thousands-more

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:09 pm

Syria rebels 'beheaded a Christian and fed him to the dogs' as fears grow over Islamist atrocities

Syrian rebels beheaded a Christian man and fed his body to dogs, according to a nun who says the West is ignoring atrocities committed by Islamic extremists.

The nun said taxi driver Andrei Arbashe, 38, was kidnapped after his brother was heard complaining that fighters against the ruling regime behaved like bandits.

She said his headless corpse was found by the side of the road, surrounded by hungry dogs. He had recently married and was soon to be a father.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2255103/Syria-rebels-beheaded-Christian-fed-dogs-fears-grow-Islamist-atrocities.html#ixzz2zd0HzPij


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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:09 pm

Interesting:


The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) is a not for profit press monitoring organization with headquarters in Washington, D.C. MEMRI publishes and distributes free English language translations of Arabic, Persian, Urdu, Pashto, and Turkish media reports.[1] The institute was co-founded in 1998 by Yigal Carmon, a former Israeli military intelligence officer and Meyrav Wurmser, an Israeli-born, American political scientist. MEMRI states that its goal is to "bridge the language gap that exists between the Middle East and the West". Critics charge that it aims to portray the Arab and Muslim world in a negative light, through the production and dissemination of inaccurate translations and by selectively translating views of extremists while deemphasizing or ignoring mainstream opinions.

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:09 pm

Syrian Christians Accuse Islamist Rebels of Destroying Church Crosses, Pillaging Homes During Town Seizure

Radical Islamist rebels have seized a predominantly Christian town in northwest Syria in recent days and reportedly destroyed crosses on churches, pillaged homes and beheaded at least one opponent in a neighboring area, according to accounts conveyed from Syria on social media.

According to various media accounts, rebels from the Al Qaeda-affiliated Al-Nusra Front, Ahrah al Sham, the Islamic Front and Chechen jihadists on Sunday gained control over Kassab, a town of 1,700 residents who are mostly Armenian Christians who now fear for their future there.

The Christian Broadcasting Network reported that 80 people have been killed and at least three churches desecrated as Syrian Christians have all but abandoned the town.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/27/syrian-Christians-accuse-islamist-rebels-of-destroying-church-crosses-pillaging-homes-during-town-seizure/

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:12 pm

Terrible, more examples of persecution by extremists

Now back to the debate, evidence please?

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:13 pm

so once again example after example after example of how jizya works in the Muslim world

but didge wants us to ignore it all and focus on his imaginary history where this type of thing never happened

sure pal

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:14 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:so once again example after example after example of how jizya works in the Muslim world

but didge wants us to ignore it all and focus on his imaginary history where this type of thing never happened

sure pal


How many Muslim nations have the Jizya as law?

I mean surely if we are to believe smelly it would be all of them

Take your time

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:15 pm

Didge wrote:Terrible, more examples of persecution by extremists

Now back to the debate, evidence please?

the evidence is there for you to see

you said that the jizya guaranteed safety for non Muslims

in Syria Christians pay the jizya and yet are still murdered by Muslims, so how are they being protected if they are being killed by the very people they are paying to protect them??



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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:16 pm

Didge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:so once again example after example after example of how jizya works in the Muslim world

but didge wants us to ignore it all and focus on his imaginary history where this type of thing never happened

sure pal


How many Muslim nations have the Jizya as law?

I mean surely if we are to believe smelly it would be all of them

Take your time

more deflection

deal with the examples at hand

you said that jizya guarantees protection

i have just given you half a dozen examples that prove it does not

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:18 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
Didge wrote:


How many Muslim nations have the Jizya as law?

I mean surely if we are to believe smelly it would be all of them

Take your time

more deflection

deal with the examples at hand

you said that jizya guarantees protection

i have just given you half a dozen examples that prove it does not  


I just did, you have given me examples of mainly extremists, that is very poor, it is you using guilt by association and again cannot show all Muslim nations using this tax today, here:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya


I do marvel at your persistence to be wrong here, but it really shows your poor attempt at clutching at straws

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:28 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
Didge wrote:


How many Muslim nations have the Jizya as law?

I mean surely if we are to believe smelly it would be all of them

Take your time

more deflection

deal with the examples at hand

you said that jizya guarantees protection

i have just given you half a dozen examples that prove it does not  

Most people get this, is odd that you do not, so again:




Under Islamic law, jizya or jizyah (Arabic: جزية‎ ǧizyah IPA: [dʒizja]; Ottoman Turkish: cizye;) is a per capita tax levied on a section of an Islamic state's non-Muslim subjects, who meet certain criteria. The tax is and was to be levied on able-bodied adult males of military age and "affording power"[1] (but with specific exemptions).[2][3] From the point of view of the Muslim rulers, jizya was a material proof of the non-Muslims' acceptance of subjection to the state and its laws, "just as for the inhabitants it was a concrete continuation of the taxes paid to earlier regimes."[4] In return, non-Muslim subjects were permitted to practice their faith, to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy, to be entitled to the Muslim state's protection from outside aggression, and to be exempted from military service and from the zakat tax levied upon Muslim citizens



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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:32 pm

Thus conclusion to the verse showing smelly as wrong.

It cannot be a verse specific to fight all non-Muslims, as seen, only men pay the tax and many people are exempt from paying, including women and children. It is for their protection from outside aggression. Thus the verses is clearly in the context of those Non-Muslim men who refuse to pay the Jizya and would thus have no meaning in regards to all Non-Muslims.


Thus smelly's concept on the verse is very wrong to how many Muslim see this and how it has been throughout its history


Next

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:41 pm

Didge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

more deflection

deal with the examples at hand

you said that jizya guarantees protection

i have just given you half a dozen examples that prove it does not  


I just did, you have given me examples of mainly extremists, that is very poor, it is you using guilt by association and again cannot show all Muslim nations using this tax today, here:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya


I do marvel at your persistence to be wrong here, but it really shows your poor attempt at clutching at straws

not mainly extremists

Muslims

the Christians paid jizya to Muslims for protection and are still being killed by those same Muslims

why are you denying this is happening??

you're the one clutching at straws here didge

im giving you real time examples of how jizya is being applied by Muslims on non Muslims in Muslim countries and the best rebuttal you have is a wikipedia explanation as to what jizya is supposed to be on paper

you're "counter" doesn't reflect reality so your counter point is wrong



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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:42 pm

Didge wrote:Thus conclusion to the verse showing smelly as wrong.

It cannot be a verse specific to fight all non-Muslims, as seen, only men pay the tax and many people are exempt from paying, including women and children. It is for their protection from outside aggression. Thus the verses is clearly in the context of those Non-Muslim men who refuse to pay the Jizya and would thus have no meaning in regards to all Non-Muslims.


Thus smelly's concept on the verse is very wrong to how many Muslim see this and how it has been throughout its history


Next


Dear me, smelly you have no case on verse 9:29, so stop being a wally as read my post above

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:47 pm

So not only does smelly used the same prejudice arguments the Nazi's did, he even is being exposed for not understanding bugger all about Islam, showing how prejudice views can twist the mind of those with hate.


Again easily done to expose your prejudice warped views smelly


Better luck next time, try actually studying, as it may help


Catch you another time

bye

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:01 pm

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."  

the hadiths state

Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists (which includes Christians), invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

as we can see both the qur'an and the hadith are in agreement with how non Muslims are to be treated

now let us look at how Muslims apply their religion, and how non Muslims are treated by Muslims

**************************

The Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, which controls the city of Al-Raqqa, announced that it had signed a "Security" pact with the Christian residents of Al-Raqqa in return for their embracing the laws of dhimma – protection. In a statement dated February 23, 2014, that ISIS published in the city, the organization said that it posed three alternatives to Christians who had fled Al-Raqqa, but now sought to return:

Convert to Islam
Accept the conditions of dhimma
Reject these offers and face war

The statement claimed the agreement to sign the pact was reached at a meeting between representatives of ISIS and the Christian community.

The pact's wording and clauses follow dhimma pacts made by medieval Islamic states, with a few modifications that take consideration of modern developments, such as the ban on using megaphones to broadcast prayers. The text opens with a polemic against Christianity, quoting Quranic verses claiming Islam's superiority over Christianity and the veracity of Islamic theological positions.

It then states: "This is the protection that Abdallah Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi, the commander of the faithful, granted the Christians of Al-Raqqa. He granted security to their lives, their property, their churches and their progeny in Al-Raqqa. Their churches and their surroundings will not be destroyed or harmed, nor will their property. They will not be coerced with regard to their religion [i.e. they will not be forced to convert to Islam], and none of them will be harmed."

The pact incorporates the following restrictions on the Christians:

They are forbidden to build new churches or rebuild destroyed ones.
They must not showcase crosses or religious books, and they are forbidden to use megaphones to broadcast their prayers.
They must not read their books out loud in front of Muslims or sound their bells.
They must not carry out any hostile actions against ISIS, or provide refuge to spies or persons wanted by ISIS. They must inform ISIS of any "conspiracy" against it.
They must refrain from any display of worship outside their church.
They may not prevent any member of their community from converting to Islam.
They must honor Islam and the Muslims, and not offend their religion in any way.
The Christians committed to pay a poll tax of "4 golden dinars" i.e. 17 grams of gold for the wealthy, 8.5 for middle income owners, and half of that for the poor.
They are forbidden to carry weapons.
They are forbidden to sell pork or wine to the Muslims or publicly consume them.
They must comply with any additional restrictions that ISIS may impose on their dress, trade or other matters.

In conclusion ISIS stated that as long as the Christians comply with these restrictions they will be protected. If they violate them, they will be treated as enemies at war.

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/7859.htm

***************************

let us examine what the ISIS is saying and whether or not what they are saying is in violation of Islamic doctrine

In a statement dated February 23, 2014, that ISIS published in the city, the organization said that it posed three alternatives to Christians who had fled Al-Raqqa, but now sought to return:

Convert to Islam
Accept the conditions of dhimma
Reject these offers and face war


"When you meet your enemies who are polytheists (which includes Christians), invite them to three courses of action.
- Islamic scripture

the organization said that it posed three alternatives to Christians - application of Islamic scripture

Invite them to (accept) Islam - Islamic scripture

Convert to Islam - option one offered by ISIS

If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. - Islamic scripture

Accept the conditions of dhimma - option two offered by ISIS

If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them" Islamic scripture

Reject these offers and face war option three offered by ISIS

so in conclusion we see that the concept of jizya is exactly what has been offered by the Muslim extremist group ISIS who have not only received payment but broken their own covenant and murdered Christians anyway


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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:30 pm

Hilarious, and a prime example of somebody unable to admit they are wrong.

Smelly you can keep using some modern examples of extremists, but that does not prove anything other than as stated all along in regards to interpretations.

Historicity proves you wrong on every levels.

Again as shown it is only meant to be paid by able bodied men, thus the verse cannot be anything other than in regards to those who do not pay the Jiyza, even more so when the Quran clearly instructs not to transgress, unless a Muslim nation is transgressed itself.

You do struggle with desperation and is no point going around in a circle with a simpleton who cannot even comprehend something so simple of which even the vast majority of scholars disagree with you, which might also have been a clue for you, let alone the history.


DOH

Again get an education in history, it may help

Good luck

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:45 pm

there is no interpretation

the ISIS is echoing the exact rules and criteria that are laid out by muhhamd in the hadith

i even colour coded it for you

see??

"When you meet your enemies who are polytheists (which includes Christians), invite them to three courses of action.
- Islamic scripture

the organization said that it posed three alternatives to Christians - application of Islamic scripture


Invite them to (accept) Islam - Islamic scripture

Convert to Islam - option one offered by ISIS


If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. - Islamic scripture

Accept the conditions of dhimma - option two offered by ISIS


If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them" Islamic scripture

Reject these offers and face war option three offered by ISIS


where have the ISIS gone wrong??

how have their misinterpreted what muhhamad meant???



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Post by SEXY MAMA on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:48 pm

Smelly did you bother to read my post????

 ::dunno:: 

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:49 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:Smelly did you bother to read my post????

 ::dunno:: 



Don't be silly sexy. he is not interested in what the many within Islam teach.

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:51 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:Smelly did you bother to read my post????

 ::dunno:: 

it wasn't YOUR post

if you want me to read what you say then i suggest you use your own words and your own thoughts and stop hiding behind what other people have done

when you post the words and essays of other people and present them as your own you lose the debate mama, because those people are not present to address any questions i may raise with what THEY (not you) are saying

so no i didnt read it




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Post by SEXY MAMA on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:54 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
SEXY MAMA wrote:Smelly did you bother to read my post????

 ::dunno:: 

it wasn't YOUR post

if you want me to read what you say then i suggest you use your own words and your own thoughts and stop hiding behind what other people have done

when you post the words and essays of other people and present them as your own you lose the debate mama, because those people are not present to address any questions i may raise with what THEY (not you) are saying

so no i didnt read it





Ok so when i write to you in my own words you say, well thats just YOUR opinion

And now im showing you other Muslims have the same view as me!

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Post by SEXY MAMA on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:55 pm

Didge wrote:
SEXY MAMA wrote:Smelly did you bother to read my post????

 ::dunno:: 



Don't be silly sexy. he is not interested in what the many within Islam teach.

Yeah you are right!

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:58 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
SEXY MAMA wrote:Smelly did you bother to read my post????

 ::dunno:: 

it wasn't YOUR post

if you want me to read what you say then i suggest you use your own words and your own thoughts and stop hiding behind what other people have done

when you post the words and essays of other people and present them as your own you lose the debate mama, because those people are not present to address any questions i may raise with what THEY (not you) are saying

so no i didnt read it






 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 


Says the many who plagiarizes other idiots from the web.


I am still astounded at how simple you are over things, even when you have shattering evidence to refute your claims.


Only able bodied men pay the Jiyza


DOH

Oh dear smelly claim busted

It was that simple, but had to break it down over countless pages for you still not to get it, even show you countless historicity and you still do not get it, no point trying to teach something to someone when as seen you cannot learn the basics


DOH

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:00 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

it wasn't YOUR post

if you want me to read what you say then i suggest you use your own words and your own thoughts and stop hiding behind what other people have done

when you post the words and essays of other people and present them as your own you lose the debate mama, because those people are not present to address any questions i may raise with what THEY (not you) are saying

so no i didnt read it





Ok so when i write to you in my own words you say, well thats just YOUR opinion

And now im showing you other Muslims have the same view as me!


Yep Islamic scholars don;t know as much as smelly on Islam, one moment.

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:

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Post by SEXY MAMA on Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:03 pm

I keep advising him to actually go out and meet some Muslims in real life.  ::D:: 

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:16 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

it wasn't YOUR post

if you want me to read what you say then i suggest you use your own words and your own thoughts and stop hiding behind what other people have done

when you post the words and essays of other people and present them as your own you lose the debate mama, because those people are not present to address any questions i may raise with what THEY (not you) are saying

so no i didnt read it





Ok so when i write to you in my own words you say, well thats just YOUR opinion

And now im showing you other Muslims have the same view as me!

mama the day you write ANYTHING in your own words is the day i eat my shoes, socks and all

you see mama, when we are talking about Islam, there multiple facets that need to be considered

we need to look at what the scripture is actually saying

we need to understand how you Muslims view your scripture

we need to understand what the hadiths are and how they contribute to the overall doctrine of Islam

we need to look at how abrogation affects the final message

and then we need to view how that all doctrine is being applied in today's world by Muslims and what religious behavior is emerging as a result of that application

we need to examine all facets to understand the whole

but you dont ever do that, in fact you never use qur'anic scripture, the hadiths or real life examples of Islam in action to validate anything you say

you only ever say "the qur'an says XYZ" or "Islam teaches ABC" but you never substantiate it

so unfortunately mama anything you say that cannot be check against Islamic scripture and histroy for support and validation IS only your opinion











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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:18 pm

This really made me chuckle:


so unfortunately mama anything you say that cannot be check against Islamic scripture and histroy for support and validation IS only your opinion 


PMSL after providing countless historicity to smelly himself ha ha ha ha


Epic own goal from smelly

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Post by SEXY MAMA on Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:22 pm

Lol!

As a practising Muslim you never bother to learn from me. I have told you many times ( over 3 years now) how us Muslim view our Quran and how we abide by it. What really goes on in our Mosques and how we integrate!


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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:23 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:I keep advising him to actually go out and meet some Muslims in real life.  ::D:: 

and what will that show me mama??

it wont show me that im wrong on Islam it will simply show me what i already know - that Muslims are just people like everyone else and yet Islam will still remain a demonic and evil ideology that possesses the power to corrupt those people and twist them into savage maniacs

Nazism had the same evil power over the human mind and soul, and yet not every German succumbed, but those who did, were monsters

you are and example of a good person who is resisting the evil influence of Islam because you live in the west

if you live in Iraq or saudi Arabia or Pakistan and were raised under an ultra conservative Wahhabi household, do you still think you would be as liberal as you are??




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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:25 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:Lol!

As a practising Muslim you never bother to learn from me. I have told you many times ( over 3 years now) how us Muslim view our Quran and how we abide by it. What really goes on in our Mosques and how we integrate!


there is nothing you can teach me about Islam mama

what you can tell me is how YOU view your qur'an and how YOU abide by it and what goes on in YOUR mosque and how YOU integrate

YOU are not every Muslim in the world



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Post by SEXY MAMA on Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:28 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
SEXY MAMA wrote:Lol!

As a practising Muslim you never bother to learn from me. I have told you many times ( over 3 years now) how us Muslim view our Quran and how we abide by it. What really goes on in our Mosques and how we integrate!


there is nothing you can teach me about Islam mama

what you can tell me is how YOU view your qur'an and how YOU abide by it and what goes on in YOUR mosque and how YOU integrate

YOU are not every Muslim in the world



True im not every Muslim in the world but im the ONLY Muslim you know Smelly!


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Post by SEXY MAMA on Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:33 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
SEXY MAMA wrote:I keep advising him to actually go out and meet some Muslims in real life.  ::D:: 

and what will that show me mama??

it wont show me that im wrong on Islam it will simply show me what i already know - that Muslims are just people like everyone else and yet Islam will still remain a demonic and evil ideology that possesses the power to corrupt those people and twist them into savage maniacs

Nazism had the same evil power over the human mind and soul, and yet not every German succumbed, but those who did, were monsters

you are and example of a good person who is resisting the evil influence of Islam because you live in the west

if you live in Iraq or saudi Arabia or Pakistan and were raised under an ultra conservative Wahhabi household, do you still think you would be as liberal as you are??

     


I would still be the same person. How can you say i dont practice Islam? I do it daily.

Living anywhere i would still speak out against discrimination.

What you fail to understand is that is that shit happens within ALL communities race and religion.

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:34 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

and what will that show me mama??

it wont show me that im wrong on Islam it will simply show me what i already know - that Muslims are just people like everyone else and yet Islam will still remain a demonic and evil ideology that possesses the power to corrupt those people and twist them into savage maniacs

Nazism had the same evil power over the human mind and soul, and yet not every German succumbed, but those who did, were monsters

you are and example of a good person who is resisting the evil influence of Islam because you live in the west

if you live in Iraq or saudi Arabia or Pakistan and were raised under an ultra conservative Wahhabi household, do you still think you would be as liberal as you are??

     


I would still be the same person. How can you say i dont practice Islam? I do it daily.

Living anywhere i would still speak out against discrimination.

What you fail to understand is that is that shit happens within ALL communities race and religion.

No you wouldn't be the same person

We are all of us products of our environments and the results of indoctrination

What do you think parenting is if not indoctrination??

You speak out against discrimination because you have had that value instilled in you through your close association with western morals and standards

Being raise in ultra conservative Saudi Arabia would instil different values

OBL was Saudi Arabian, what if you were raised by him do you still think you would be the same person??

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