God's Mentality

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Post by stardesk on Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:05 pm

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GOD’S MENTALITY

I cannot help but wonder what kind of mentality has God. When you spend money, time, and effort to make or create something, would you then allow something else to come along and demolish your creation? Would you stand back and watch as it’s being destroyed? Of course not, and yet this is exactly what God did, (assuming he exists, of course.) Having apparently created the Earth either he didn’t care or was helpless, whilst asteroids, ice-ages, volcanoes, earthquakes, and tsunamis, destroyed much of his creation. Was he responsible for the negative disasters that struck the planet? Did he create them on purpose to destroy a mistake? If so, then he is not the omnipotent, infallible, and loving father we are led to believe.

Moving on, he supposedly created all the animals and birds etc, and yet what do we find? Timid animals such as a Gazelle or Impala, being pounced on by lions and leopards, tearing at their throats and neck. Can you imagine the sheer terror and fear those timid creatures must have felt? Just one example of bird predation, during the mating season when Black Headed gulls have young in the nest, you will see Herring Gulls bomb down on the nest and grab the young, fly off with them and eat them.

I put these facts to a Jehovah’s Witness at my door, he quite seriously replied: ‘Oh, that’s all Satan’s fault.’ Need I say I had a good laugh at such ignorance. Poor old Satan, he’s been accused of just about every negative issue that exists on planet Earth. And yet, all he did was encourage Adam and Eve to become aware of themselves as self-aware, free-thinking individuals, with the ability to make decisions for themselves. Had that not have happened then they would have been no more than pets, subservient to God, running at his beck and call. I’m sitting here typing away on my laptop, the product of a free thinking, enquiring, inventive mind. Had Adam and Eve not awaken to future potential, we’d still be wandering around naked, rummaging and foraging for food in the wilds.
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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:09 pm

Eilzel wrote:
eddie wrote:Of course, some of us see God as in our own image, I would suppose? I'm not sure that's true for everyone.

I just see Him (for want of a better description) as like a loving father; he made us, gave us the tools for living our life and became our voice of reason.
When we go out into the big wide world we hear his voice in our conscience and we know right from wrong.


My version of this hasn't ever changed tbh. I offered this version to my son but never made him believe it, nor did I give him a religion. I allowed him to choose his own path, as I will my daughter when she is old enough.

Surprisingly, I did buy him the Usborne Children's bible as it has some good fables in it that teach good morals.
I always told him whenever he was troubled he should hold that book and let it fall open at a page and that story will help him.
It usually worked, strangely enough. Whatever the reason, it used to calm him down and I found it a nice way for him to find peace.

See this is where your interpretation contradicts itself for me Eds. You describe him as a 'loving father' who equips us to live our life. Lovely, but you ignore the fact that (and I hate to be repetitive) he then indirectly kills millions of children on a yearly basis by having also created malaria and other diseases.

People have to die you say. No problem. So in answer to the question of God's mentality, we can at best charge him (if he exists) with wanton manslaughter. This isn't a question of whether I believe or not by the way- but if he does exist then for what is he responsible- because to me it sounds like when good things happen or we have an inner conversation 'thank god' but when bad things happen 'not his fault'...


I agree with this chief.

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Post by eddie on Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:12 pm

Eilzel wrote:
eddie wrote:Of course, some of us see God as in our own image, I would suppose? I'm not sure that's true for everyone.

I just see Him (for want of a better description) as like a loving father; he made us, gave us the tools for living our life and became our voice of reason.
When we go out into the big wide world we hear his voice in our conscience and we know right from wrong.


My version of this hasn't ever changed tbh. I offered this version to my son but never made him believe it, nor did I give him a religion. I allowed him to choose his own path, as I will my daughter when she is old enough.

Surprisingly, I did buy him the Usborne Children's bible as it has some good fables in it that teach good morals.
I always told him whenever he was troubled he should hold that book and let it fall open at a page and that story will help him.
It usually worked, strangely enough. Whatever the reason, it used to calm him down and I found it a nice way for him to find peace.

See this is where your interpretation contradicts itself for me Eds. You describe him as a 'loving father' who equips us to live our life. Lovely, but you ignore the fact that (and I hate to be repetitive) he then indirectly kills millions of children on a yearly basis by having also created malaria and other diseases.

People have to die you say. No problem. So in answer to the question of God's mentality, we can at best charge him (if he exists) with wanton manslaughter. This isn't a question of whether I believe or not by the way- but if he does exist then for what is he responsible- because to me it sounds like when good things happen or we have an inner conversation 'thank god' but when bad things happen 'not his fault'...

Not me les. I'd never pick and choose God's "jobs"
I don't know why millions of children die? Is that not, in some cases like starvation, the fault of their own country?

Les you know I mentioned my friend who's daughter tragically died a few years ago, at a nursery by hanging? Well, she was a Hindu (extremely westernised but still a Hindi nonetheless), she has completely gone against God - and I understand that - she has ranted and raged against him, asking why he let her two year old baby die so needlessly.
She knows I believe in God and she has put it to me: why did He let her innocent baby die, and such a tragic and horrific death? (She was left hanging for twenty minutes before the nursery staff found her, they were prosecuted for negligence etc).
I cannot ever answer her. I have searched and searched my own head and heart and I can't answer her.

I still believe though. Does that make me horrid?

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:26 pm

eddie wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

See this is where your interpretation contradicts itself for me Eds. You describe him as a 'loving father' who equips us to live our life. Lovely, but you ignore the fact that (and I hate to be repetitive) he then indirectly kills millions of children on a yearly basis by having also created malaria and other diseases.

People have to die you say. No problem. So in answer to the question of God's mentality, we can at best charge him (if he exists) with wanton manslaughter. This isn't a question of whether I believe or not by the way- but if he does exist then for what is he responsible- because to me it sounds like when good things happen or we have an inner conversation 'thank god' but when bad things happen 'not his fault'...

Not me les. I'd never pick and choose God's "jobs"
I don't know why millions of children die? Is that not, in some cases like starvation, the fault of their own country?

Les you know I mentioned my friend who's daughter tragically died a few years ago, at a nursery by hanging? Well, she was a Hindu (extremely westernised but still a Hindi nonetheless), she has completely gone against God - and I understand that - she has ranted and raged against him, asking why he let her two year old baby die so needlessly.
She knows I believe in God and she has put it to me: why did He let her innocent baby die, and such a tragic and horrific death? (She was left hanging for twenty minutes before the nursery staff found her, they were prosecuted for negligence etc).
I cannot ever answer her. I have searched and searched my own head and heart and I can't answer her.

I still believe though. Does that make me horrid?  

Is it the fault of their country? See this is it Eds, malaria, AIDs, typhoid etc, these are natural diseases which without science we wouldn't even be able to treat- billions have died over thousands of years, long before the state could even do anything. In Europe millions used to die of smallpox until science eradicated it entirely less than a century ago. God if he exists, made these diseases, God if he exists, has to be blamed.

I understand your friend turning against the idea of God, completely. My own argument against his existence is both from logical thought and reasoning and reading the science as well as the emotional point of view regarding needless suffering. It is horrid to think there is a God who would create a world where children die while murderous despots live to ripe old age.

It doesn't make you horrid to still believe; but in her shoes you might find it harder. In the shoes of a woman who lost 6 children to malaria and AIDs you might find it harder. If your whole family had been wiped out by a tsunami that 'the country' could do nothing about you might find it harder.

Of course many who do suffer these things still believe- I'd suggest that many are in places where they know no better however or where to claim not to believe could be detrimental. Some of course see such things as a test. Perhaps what you interpret as your personal experience with God makes you reluctant to see things from anothers point of view?

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Post by eddie on Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:43 pm

Perhaps les.
It's just when you feel you know something you just know, right?

Off for a bit. Will chat later xxx

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:46 pm

eddie wrote:Perhaps les.
It's just when you feel you know something you just know, right?

Off for a bit. Will chat later xxx

Conviction can be a powerful thing; chat later Eds x

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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:53 pm

Eilzel wrote:
eddie wrote:

Not me les. I'd never pick and choose God's "jobs"
I don't know why millions of children die? Is that not, in some cases like starvation, the fault of their own country?

Les you know I mentioned my friend who's daughter tragically died a few years ago, at a nursery by hanging? Well, she was a Hindu (extremely westernised but still a Hindi nonetheless), she has completely gone against God - and I understand that - she has ranted and raged against him, asking why he let her two year old baby die so needlessly.
She knows I believe in God and she has put it to me: why did He let her innocent baby die, and such a tragic and horrific death? (She was left hanging for twenty minutes before the nursery staff found her, they were prosecuted for negligence etc).
I cannot ever answer her. I have searched and searched my own head and heart and I can't answer her.

I still believe though. Does that make me horrid?  

Is it the fault of their country? See this is it Eds, malaria, AIDs, typhoid etc, these are natural diseases which without science we wouldn't even be able to treat- billions have died over thousands of years, long before the state could even do anything. In Europe millions used to die of smallpox until science eradicated it entirely less than a century ago. God if he exists, made these diseases, God if he exists, has to be blamed.

I understand your friend turning against the idea of God, completely. My own argument against his existence is both from logical thought and reasoning and reading the science as well as the emotional point of view regarding needless suffering. It is horrid to think there is a God who would create a world where children die while murderous despots live to ripe old age.

It doesn't make you horrid to still believe; but in her shoes you might find it harder. In the shoes of a woman who lost  6 children to malaria and AIDs you might find it harder. If your whole family had been wiped out by a tsunami that 'the country' could do nothing about you might find it harder.

Of course many who do suffer these things still believe- I'd suggest that many are in places where they know no better however or where to claim not to believe could be detrimental. Some of course see such things as a test. Perhaps what you interpret as your personal experience with God makes you reluctant to see things from anothers point of view?

i've always considered aids man made to be honest...

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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:40 pm

why we are "becoming" gods

OR why god DIDNT make us "slaves"

Hegel's treatment of the master and slave dialectic is highly complex and abstract, but we will attempt to communicate the gist of his argument in a way that non-specialists can follow. The starting point is the concept of self-consciousness.

Self-consciousness is, by definition, a consciousness that is able to reflect upon itself. While all non-human animals on earth display various levels of consciousness, none of them are self-conscious. Hegel asserts that self-consciousness cannot exist on its own. It needs something else with which to contrast itself. To know what it is, self-consciousness must be aware of what it is not. (In a later article, we will show how Hegel's idea has astonishing implications for the nature of God, and is the key to why evil exists.)

A self-consciousness needs otherness, but as soon it encounters otherness it also experiences, for the first time, fear. Otherness is foreign, a potential threat, something that stands in opposition. The self-consciousness wishes to exert its will to power over the other thing. It wants to possess it, discover its secrets, absorb it, subordinate it, but, crucially, not to destroy it. If the self-consciousness takes ownership of the other thing, it will no longer find it foreign, hostile and threatening. But if it destroys the other thing, the self-consciousness will no longer have anything with which to contrast itself and will start to unravel. It cannot exist without the presence of otherness, yet as soon as it takes possession of otherness, otherness is no longer truly other. How can self-consciousness overcome this dilemma? Hegel came up with a profound and dramatic answer - by otherness arriving in the shape of a second self-consciousness.

Self-consciousness, in order to become true self-consciousness, needs not just any external object - any otherness - but another self-consciousness. By observing this other self-consciousness, by learning what it does and how it behaves, the first self-consciousness starts to understand itself. It learns what it means to be a self-consciousness.

Imagine a human child growing up on a desert island without the presence of another human or even an animal. Would the child develop language, would it become self-conscious, would it even become human in any true sense? The harsh but unavoidable truth is that it wouldn't. We become human by growing up amongst other humans, by being taught and guided by adult humans, by socialising with humans, by developing relationships, good and bad, with other humans. We immerse ourselves in the pool of humanity and thereby become human. If we are unable to do that because we have extreme autism, or severe Down's Syndrome, or any other debilitating condition that makes proper social interaction impossible, then we will never be truly human but more like an animal.

Think of the God of Christianity, Islam and Judaism existing in complete isolation before he allegedly created the world. How would this God develop as a self-consciousness without anything or anyone else with which to contrast himself? To a Christian, Muslim or Jew that question is not only absurd but also blasphemous and heretical. But their conception of God is ridiculous and incredible beyond words. Their God is one that could never exist. They believe in a fantasy. No intelligent person could subscribe to their religious beliefs. We said in an earlier section that our religion is one that even an atheist could contemplate accepting. That is because it is consistent with science and philosophy, and does not rely on the absurdity of faith. If you are prepared to believe in a 15-yr-old virgin giving birth to the omnipotent, omniscient, perfect, timeless Son of God in a stable in the Middle East 2,000 years ago, you are prepared to believe in anything. You are far beyond the reach of rational debate. Atheists will, rightly, instantly reject everything you have to say.

Hegel was fascinated by what would happen when a self-consciousness first encountered a second self-consciousness. The first self-consciousness would certainly now have another object with which to contrast itself, but this would be no simple object that could be straightforwardly owned and negated as all the previous objects had been. In fact, this other self-consciousness might be a serious threat. Also, the first self-consciousness is plunged into an identity crisis. It is no longer unique. Not only that, perhaps, the first self-consciousness worries, the other self-consciousness might want to try to own and negate it as if it were just another object.
Imagine two humans who have been raised in perfect isolation suddenly coming into contact with one another. What will they do? How will they behave? Hegel says that each requires recognition from the other: recognition that they are independent self-consciousnesses that are not mere objects to be owned and negated. What if the other refuses to provide that recognition?

If another self-consciousness does not acknowledge that I am also a self-consciousness, my whole identity is at stake. I am thrust into an existential crisis. Who am I? What am I? What will become of me? Does my existence have meaning?
When prisoners of war are being broken, one of the main tactics used is to dehumanise them, depersonalise them, refuse to acknowledge their humanity, their existence as anything other than objects. Many people have gone insane when subjected to this treatment. If you travelled the globe and were never once acknowledged as a human being by anyone you met, if you were ignored at every turn, if you were treated as invisible, you would soon no longer be human in any functioning sense. Quite simply, we cannot be human without acknowledgement of our humanity by other humans. Most people take their identity for granted, but it is astonishingly fragile, as many prisoners of war discover to their cost. The Jews in Nazi death camps were stripped of all of their humanity. They were turned, metaphorically, and even literally in some cases, into objects. One survivor, the great writer Primo Levi once dared to ask a guard, "Why?" regarding some incident. The response he got was infinitely chilling: "Here, there is no 'why'."

Recognition is not just important, it is a matter of life and death. Our whole existence hinges on it. Without it, we are objects. We are not human. We might as well be dead.

Hegel says that in the first encounter between two self-consciousnesses, the outcome is so critical, so much is riding on it, that in effect it becomes a fight to the death. Yet death must not happen. If either is killed, the other is denied the possibility of recognition and loses the chance to be a proper self-consciousness. (Remember that Hegel says that a self-consciousness cannot exist in the absence of another self-consciousness. Self-consciousness is social and plural, never singular.)
So, while each person fights as if to the death, the struggle does not actually end in death because that would be the end for both self-consciousnesses, both the victor and vanquished. The only way for the situation to be resolved is for one self-consciousness to, finally, submit to the other i.e. for one to prove to be more cowardly and weak than the other, less able to put everything on the line in order to win, less willing to risk death itself.

So, both have survived and both can now acknowledge the other, but a terrible and infinitely fateful asymmetry has entered the equation. The struggle has ended with the complete victory of one over the other. The victor is the master and the vanquished his slave. The victor was prepared to fight to the death; the vanquished wasn't. He gave up. The victor is courageous and the vanquished a coward. The victor is strong and the vanquished weak. The master controls and the slave is controlled. The master is the ruler and the slave is the ruled.
This struggle has, symbolically, been going on since the dawn of humanity. We have all participated in the struggle and we are now all either masters or slaves. It's easy to know which. If you work for another person, you are a slave. If you can be fired, you are a slave. If others control your life, you are a slave. If you are fearful of what others might do, you are a slave. If you have to await the decisions of others, you are a slave. The freer and the more independent you are, the more you resemble a master.

Although it seems that everything is perfectly set up for the master, Hegel says that this is not the case. Certainly, the master can put the slave to work and live excellently off the slave's hard toil. He can indulge in play all day long if he wishes. While the slave labours from dusk until dawn, the master lives a life of leisure and ease. Yet he is dissatisfied. He was hoping for acknowledgement from another self-consciousness, another person, but now he finds it hard to see the slave as anything other than an object. The asymmetry in their relationship means that there is no equality in the recognition for which they fought. The slave hates being viewed as a thing, and the master can barely tolerate being looked at by the slave.

But a new and amazing dialectic takes over. The master, living off the labour of the slaves, does no work himself. But the slave's work, bit by bit, begins to change the environment. Fields are cultivated, buildings constructed, goods manufactured. In all of this work, something of the slave is turning into physical form. His consciousness is becoming externally objectified. He realises he has a mind of his own, that he's capable of creation, and of ordering his environment. He becomes proud of his achievements. His self-assurance steadily builds. He no longer feels so wretched and worthless in comparison with the master.

When the slave and master survey the world, the slave sees the fruit of his own work, while the master sees the outcome of another's work. The slave finds that his consciousness is appearing all around him in the shape of the work he has performed. He is finding a way to attain recognition and deeper understanding of his own consciousness other than solely through the approval of another self-consciousness. He grows as a person. He pours himself into his work. He learns things and becomes increasingly skilled. The master, on the other hand, is becoming lazy and inept, with none of his own work to show for his time.

As the dialectic unfolds, the slave, theoretically, should become more and more powerful until he is the equal of the master. At that point the master will no longer be able to treat him as anything other than a free man. Each side has achieved what it wants. The slave is no longer deemed less than human, and the master at last gets the recognition he craves from an equal. The master-slave dialectic has culminated in an outcome that preserves the two most valuable features of the dialectic: the master's freedom, and the slave's skilful work. Now the slave can enjoy the master's freedom, and the master can acquire the skills of the slave.

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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:49 pm

Absolutely facinating Victor, have copied it to my notebook to reread, because it takes some thinking about.

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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:54 pm

when you have wrapped your head round the implications for "being" in that we can proceed further.
I warn you there will be some mathematical concepts and constructs involved......

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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:56 pm

this however provides the concepts for why the creator didnt create another creator of equal power as companion/equal etc...

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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:57 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:when you have wrapped your head round the implications for "being" in that we can proceed further.
I warn you there will be some mathematical concepts and constructs involved......

That's fine, I like the sound of that.

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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:09 pm

OK, I can absolutely see the relevance of the juxtaposition between the first and second consciousness in relation to man. Not sure how this relates to a sense of 'god' though, or is that the next part of the equation?

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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:21 pm

just substitute gods for men

If god had created an equal the same fight would have ensued. Even a "lesser god" would have been capable of cosmic levels of harm and damage...so the creator made the the universe (though as you will see this is not strictly the full truth) capable of producing beings...us and potentially billions of others which have the potential of "becoming" his equal.(remember the word "becoming"...its what we are all at) he made the ultimate "slave", in order for us to become the ultimate being.........

the concept of "slave" in this is not quite right...we are not slaves to anything but our nature, in our relationship to the creator we are merely lesser weaker "becomings"

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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:25 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:just substitute gods for men

If god had created an equal the same fight would have ensued. Even a "lesser god" would have been capable of cosmic levels of harm and damage...so the creator made the the universe (though as you will see this is not strictly the full truth) capable of producing beings...us and potentially billions of others which have the potential of "becoming" his equal.(remember the word "becoming"...its what we are all at) he made the ultimate "slave", in order for us to become the ultimate being.........

the concept of "slave" in this is not quite right...we are not slaves to anything but our nature, in our relationship to the creator we are merely lesser weaker "becomings"

Ok, but this still presumes a type of 'god' who made a universe that would have life evolve on it, in order for those who evolved to strive to become equal to the 'god', which in turn would give him validity. Doesn't it?

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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:45 pm

ahh..well heres the rub...and part of the second part..

the creator DIDNT actually make the universe per se. The universe made the creator and at the same time was a consequence of the creator "becoming"

O.K so how do we resolve that paradox?

A few requisite concepts....

The most fundamental question of all is why anything should exist at all. The religiously minded assert that God has always existed and always will. They define him as all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-present, all-perfect, all-good, all-forgiving, all-just, all-compassionate. He is the Prime Mover, the First Cause, the original link in the chain of existence. All explanations come back, finally, to God. So, the answer to every fundamental question is simply "God". If God wills it, it happens. But is that any kind of satisfactory explanation? The problem of the existence of evil is one that mainstream religion has never answered in any credible way. If God is everywhere, why is the world so imperfect, why do so many people not believe in God, why does he seem so remote, why is he incommunicado?

Atheists declare that "God" is no meaningful explanation of anything. After all, one could simply answer "God" to everything. Why is the sky blue? Because God made it that way. How did life originate? God created it. Why does anything happen? Because God wills it. This is the antithesis of scientific and philosophical enquiry. In all great periods in the development of the human mind, "God" has been ignored in order to create room for progress. In the contemporary world, Muslims invoke Allah to explain everything. Virtually every sentence uttered by a Muslim contains the phrase "insha'Allah" - "God willing". Islam is now a primitive, backward religion that has turned its back on science and philosophy and retreated into religious fanaticism.

Anyone can legitimately ask how God himself came into existence and acquired those sublime qualities of his. What was the cause of God? If he had no cause then how can that be? How can anything exist outside the chain of causal necessity? What did God do in the infinite time before he created the world? What does God want from us? Why doesn't he make it clear what he expects us to do? Isn't he cruel and heartless to create a place - hell - where finite beings will receive an infinite sentence out of all possible proportion to any crime committed by any mortal. How can this be just? How can a Supreme Being of love, forgiveness, justice and compassion create hell?

There are innumerable contradictions and mysteries that leave no thinking person satisfied.

No process of understanding the universe can begin from the starting point of "God" because God himself, rather than the universe, then becomes the Supreme Mystery that must be explained in order to explain his creation. If God is the answer to all the questions of the universe then what is the answer to God? We are no further forward. We have simply pushed the explanation back one stage, achieved nothing and answered nothing. We have created the illusion of an answer, but no actual answer.

So God, for the time being, must be ignored.

Returning to the original question, why does anything exist at all? It is not because of God but for another reason. The English writer T.H. White said in The Once and Future King (about King Arthur):

"Anything not forbidden is compulsory."

Nothingness, the absence of everything, a state of no content where events never take place, is the logical "zero-point energy" of the universe. It is the simplest state conceivable. It requires nothing. No effort has to be exerted to create it. It is the lowest energy state possible because it contains no energy. The energy level is eternally zero. Nothing can be more stable than nothingness because nothing ever happens to destabilise it. There is nothing to which anything ever could happen. The "path of least resistance" begins and ends here. If such a state were logically possible then it would certainly happen since it is the simplest possible system, requiring no effort, no things, nothing at all.

The great Illuminist Leibniz introduced the Principle of Sufficient Reason:
"...we can find no true or existent fact, no true assertion, without there being a sufficient reason why it is thus and not otherwise..."

There is a prima facie sufficient reason why there should be nothing rather than something - nothing could ever be simpler, more stable and require less work than nothingness. And if there is perfect nothingness then there can never be "something" because how could something emerge from nothingness? There is nothing there from which to emerge.

So there is only one reason why existence is not eternal nothingness and infinite void - this state is forbidden. It is quite simply impossible. If it were possible then it would certainly exist and there would be no universe as we know it.

It is not God who makes it impossible. It is the properties of nothingness itself. Immanuel Kant asserted in his critique of the ontological "proof" of the existence of God that existence is not a predicate i.e. it is not a property that things can either possess or lack. For someone to say that unicorns exist, he must be able to point to an example in the real world of a unicorn. If he can't then he's talking nonsense. Merely saying that something exists does not give it the property of existence in the real world. You must demonstrate its existence. A good explanation of Kant's subtle argument can be found here:

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/theistic-proofs/the-ontological-argument/st-anselms-ontological-argument/existence-is-not-a-predicate/


let me know when you have thought about this ...

he he aint philosophy fun.....





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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:57 pm

Can completely see this, (although I think he should have said that ALL fundamental religions, not just Islam are blocking progress).   But a state of nothingness is the most simple and point zero.   Once you have even the tiniest amount of energy, things change and continue to change.   And the fact that we exist shows that point zero simply cannot be.   And 'because it is' is simply not acceptable, not even when we were children.   'Why' has always been at the forefront of even a child's mind.

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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:14 pm

Ok sass the (easy) mathematical bit follows...but tomorrow...I'm off to bed now...blessed be :-)

BTW, the quotes and texts I'm using are from another group, not one I subscribe to but they are a good depositry of "modern gnostic thinking" They do have a different world view to me, but there basic sources are the same as mine, therefore I feel validated in using them...save me hours of typing. But some of the views in the texts (which are THEIR interpretation as they are also political in nature) are not necessarily mine....and do not appear in the original ideas except in a basic non discriminatory form...ie...as you say ALL fundamental religions, as opposed to making capital out of naming a few...)

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Post by Guest on Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:16 pm

Blessed be Victor, sleep well. I look forward to the next instalment.

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Post by veya_victaous on Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:31 am

victorisnotamused wrote:just substitute gods for men

If god had created an equal the same fight would have ensued. Even a "lesser god" would have been capable of cosmic levels of harm and damage...so the creator made the the universe (though as you will see this is not strictly the full truth) capable of producing beings...us and potentially billions of others which have the potential of "becoming" his equal.(remember the word "becoming"...its what we are all at) he made the ultimate "slave", in order for us to become the ultimate being.........

the concept of "slave" in this is not quite right...we are not slaves to anything but our nature, in our relationship to the creator we are merely lesser weaker "becomings"

what if god(s) are not creators? did God(s) make Life or did life Make God(s)?

And cosmic levels of chaos harm and damage are occurring constantly so look like other gods are about  Cool 

God's Mentality - Page 6 Galaxies_wideweb__470x394,2

2 galaxies collide each speck of light in the image is a star the equivalent of hundreds of millions of Nuclear explosions slamming into each other. if our planet was there is woudl be vaporised in an instant if it wasn't torn asunder by the vast gravitation fields forces twisting ENTIRE GALAXIES apart




ohh and 4 billion more years we'll be in this (one of those dots would be our sun)


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Post by Guest on Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:35 am

That's the next stage and the maths that are involved, and Victor is saying that the universe made 'god', but we are not speaking of 'god' as the Abrahamic 'god', but a spiritual energy force.

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Post by Guest on Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:06 am

Sassy wrote:That's the next stage and the maths that are involved, and Victor is saying that the universe made 'god', but we are not speaking of 'god' as the Abrahamic 'god', but a spiritual energy force.


So he is talking not of any ' God' ,but of a spiritual energy force?

He really should have told me! Laughing

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Post by veya_victaous on Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:07 am

@sassy
I took to say they were made together, one cannot exist with out the other.

I see that 'god' force as not a god at all but an unthinking flow with no desire (like a river). I see god(s) as the other forces that twist and funnel the flow (Like the rocks beneath the surface).
and just like a River when the Rocks create conflicting currents in flow you get the Chaos of the Rapids.

And Just like the one can 'predict' the flow of the rapids with enough knowledge of the rocks beneath the surface, maybe one can make predictions of the spirit if we know enough about the gods.  :::grouch:: 

I see Stars as manifestation of the gods for the immense energy and unseen forces that they exert. they make, define and move the universe.... Plus like the clip I posted from Lawrence Krauss, we are the children of the stars because the only place in the universe where much of the atoms that make our molecular structure can be created is in the heart/belly of a star (Nuclear Fission). the only way the could get here to be made into us is via supernova, we can only exist thanks to the death of an ancient star (the Jesus star  ::alahoo::  ::alahoo::  ::alahoo:: )

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Post by Guest on Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:05 pm

Well in which case Veya, I think Victor's next instalment might interest you as well.

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Post by Guest on Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:42 pm

Hokaayyyyyyy

So, how could the statement "nothing exists" ever be demonstrated? It is impossible by definition because we exist, the world exists, the universe exists. There is no correspondence between the concept of nothingness and the real world. It is a purely hypothetical concept. Atheists would argue that exactly the same is true of God: can anyone point to God and prove that he is any more real than a unicorn? But some people might contend that these are all just word games, so let's try to think more deeply about nothingness. Would it have dimensions e.g. length, breadth and height? In other words, could an imaginary being travel backwards and forwards in nothingness? If so, nothingness is not nothingness: at the very least it has physical dimensions. It is an enormous physical space - empty, certainly - but a space nevertheless with the basic properties of space, which are not those of absolute nothingness (which would have no properties at all). Theoretically, we could divide "dimensional nothingness" into an infinite number of tiny cubic cells, each a unit long in terms of breadth, height and length (in whatever scale of measurement we choose).
If that type of dimensional nothingness doesn't work then what about nothingness without physical dimensions (i.e. such that an imaginary being couldn't travel through it)?

Now we arrive at the central teaching of xxxxxxxxx, the one idea from which everything else - the whole of existence - flows. It is extremely abstract initially, but soon we will make it much more concrete: with reference to the most mysterious objects in the universe - black holes.

In its most abstract form, xxxxxxxxxx states that just as "dimensional nothingness" can be broken down into hypothetical basic units, so can "dimensionless nothingness". In this case, the basic units are mental rather than physical, and the imaginary being could indeed travel through this nothingness, but mentally rather than physically.

No matter how you examine the issue, you can never define any state of absolute nothingness. It is an impossible state. The concept is incoherent.

Conversely, we can easily demonstrate the existence of "something" by simply pointing to anything in the world. And even if we adopt absolute skepticism and doubt the genuine existence of everything we see around us, we are still left with Descartes' famous dictum that what we cannot doubt is that thinking is taking place: "I think therefore I am." Thought, at least, exists, and that is the central irrefutable fact of existence that no one can possibly challenge.

The answer to the question, "Why is there something rather than nothing?" is that the state of nothingness is impossible. It is not even definable.

What the universe unquestionably contains, and has always contained, is the prerequisites for thoughts, for thinking. Even if a trillion trillion years ago there wasn't a single living thing in existence in the universe, what that primordial universe certainly contained was the potential to make intelligent thinking an actuality at some point in the future.

Descartes famously divided the universe into two incompatible substances - matter (res extensa: extended substance, having dimensions and capable of being divided); and mind (res cogitans: thinking substance, having no dimensions and therefore incapable of being physically divided). This dualistic description of reality has, in one way or another, dominated human thinking ever since. The insurmountable problem it presents is how matter and mind can interact if they are entirely separate substances. For that reason, science has denied the existence of the mental universe and become entirely materialistic, contending that "mind" is some mysterious by-product of the physical world. But no scientist has ever come close to explaining how consciousness arises from atoms.

We use a slightly different terminology for Descartes' proposal about the nature of reality. What he calls extended substance, we call "dimensional substance", and what he calls thinking substance, we call "dimensionless substance". We then invoke Leibniz's Principle of Sufficient Reason. Is there any sufficient reason why dimensional substance should be privileged over dimensionless substance? i.e. is there some obvious reason why it is legitimate for scientists and materialists to dispose of the possibility of dimensionless substance? On the face of it, the only thing we can be sure of is thinking, which most people regard as non-materialistic. Conversely, is there some obvious reason why idealist thinkers should dispose of dimensional substance and deny the existence of the material world? On the face of it, everyone takes the existence of the material world for granted. It seems utterly undeniable.

We are left with a hopeless standoff. How do we proceed? This is where dialectical logic plays a decisive role. The dialectical approach treats the dimensional substance as the thesis and the dimensionless substance as the antithesis then combines them into a higher synthesis.

Thesis - dimensional substance

Antithesis - dimensionless substance

Synthesis - dimensional/dimensionless substance i.e. we replace Descartes' two separate, incompatible substances with a single substance that has two dialectical aspects: dimensional and dimensionless. This is technically called dialectical monism. Descartes' problem of how to make two different substances interact is thus overcome because now there is only one substance, but with two aspects: physical and mental, dimensional and dimensionless, which perpetually interact dialectically.

Science, hitherto, has been the study of a single aspect of existence: the dimensional, physical, material aspect. The other aspect - the dimensionless, mental, immaterial aspect has remained the exclusive arena of religion and metaphysics.



The xxxxxxxxx refer to the mental aspect of existence as the Psychocosmos and the physical aspect as the Hylocosmos. It must be emphasized that there are not two separate universes - just one universe with two radically different aspects. Jesuit Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, famous for his concept of the noosphere, talked about two types of energy. One type is called "tangential" and is equivalent to the energy of the physical universe as studied by scientists. Teilhard de Chardin refers to this as the energy of the "without of things". The other is called "radial" and is equivalent to spiritual or psychic energy. This is the energy of the "within of things".

The xxxxxxxxx draw a similar distinction. Physical energy is the energy of the dimensional aspect of existence (the "outer" aspect) while Psychic energy is the energy of the dimensionless aspect of existence (the "inner" aspect). Because there is only one fundamental substance, one fundamental energy, physical and psychic energies are different aspects of the same thing. When energy acquires dimensions it is physical and when it loses dimensions it is psychic. The universe has an inner aspect - a "within" (which is dimensionless), and an outer aspect - a "without" (which is dimensional). Science ignores the within because it is not amenable to conventional scientific study, although its effects manifest themselves everywhere in science, and especially in psychology.


The dimensional aspect of existence is associated with the dimensions of space and time. The dimensionless aspect, since it has no dimensions, is outside of space and time. This is the key aspect to existence: an aspect outside of space and time perpetually interacting dialectically with an aspect inside space and time. All of the weird and wonderful phenomena of the universe are the products of this ultimate dichotomy.
Does this sound crazy? Then consider the evidence provided by black holes.

---------------------------------more to follow-------------------------------------------------

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Post by eddie on Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:24 pm

To much info overload Victor  :asbluras: 

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Post by Guest on Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:43 pm

philosophy can be a bitch  lol! 

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Post by Guest on Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:22 pm

Thanks Victor, going to study all of it, I'm facinated. I've always thought that now they can actually picture the brain while we are thinking and mentally working, it's almost like the 'within' mental energy can be measured. In which case, would it become the 'without'!

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Post by Guest on Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:40 pm

Bet you didnt EVER think I woud be allied to them. as I said...not one....but well "in" with them....

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Post by Guest on Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:08 pm

Stunned me lol!!!!!!!!!

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:00 am

@Victor
it is generally accepted that a state of true nothingness cannot exist, recent discoveries around dark matter/energy support this assumption. Science and Spirituality do not need to be in conflict they can work with each other.

http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/


Albert Einstein was the first person to realize that empty space is not nothing. Space has amazing properties, many of which are just beginning to be understood. The first property that Einstein discovered is that it is possible for more space to come into existence. Then one version of Einstein's gravity theory, the version that contains a cosmological constant, makes a second prediction: "empty space" can possess its own energy. Because this energy is a property of space itself, it would not be diluted as space expands. As more space comes into existence, more of this energy-of-space would appear. As a result, this form of energy would cause the Universe to expand faster and faster. Unfortunately, no one understands why the cosmological constant should even be there, much less why it would have exactly the right value to cause the observed acceleration of the Universe.  

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:06 am

 
veya_victaous wrote:@Victor
it is generally accepted that a state of true nothingness cannot exist, recent discoveries around dark matter/energy support this assumption. Science and Spirituality do not need to be in conflict they can work with each other.

http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/

Albert Einstein was the first person to realize that empty space is not nothing. Space has amazing properties, many of which are just beginning to be understood. The first property that Einstein discovered is that it is possible for more space to come into existence. Then one version of Einstein's gravity theory, the version that contains a cosmological constant, makes a second prediction: "empty space" can possess its own energy. Because this energy is a property of space itself, it would not be diluted as space expands. As more space comes into existence, more of this energy-of-space would appear. As a result, this form of energy would cause the Universe to expand faster and faster. Unfortunately, no one understands why the cosmological constant should even be there, much less why it would have exactly the right value to cause the observed acceleration of the Universe.  

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 cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers 

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:48 am

The dimensional aspect of existence is associated with the dimensions of space and time. The dimensionless aspect, since it has no dimensions, is outside of space and time. This is the key aspect to existence: an aspect outside of space and time perpetually interacting dialectically with an aspect inside space and time. All of the weird and wonderful phenomena of the universe are the products of this ultimate dichotomy.

I take issue with this, I do not (nor most Buddhist) believe that dimensions are limited to Space and Time.

I propose that we are in fact the 4th dimension and there is quite probably dimension beyond our which we are incapable of truly comprehending.
1st dimension is width (or possibly height but for simplicity lets call it the 'x-axis' )
2nd dimension is height (or vice versa we will call lit the 'y-axis')
3rd is depth (or the 'z-axis')
Now all the above dimension we can adequately portray in our dimension, in a 3rd dimension space it would be possible to represent a 2nd dimension 'object' , in a 2nd dimensional space it is possible to represent a 1st dimensional 'object'.
( I use 'object' as an abstract term, the universe is an 'object' and also consists of 'objects')

within our 4th dimensional space we can represent all 3rd dimension objects but cannot make a complete representation of a 4th dimensional 'object' (time) because we are 4th dimensional beings and subject to time, in a single instance we can only perceive the 3rd dimensional object, by 'living' the 4th dimension we experience consecutive instance of the other 3 dimensions (in the form of 3rd dimensional 'objects') as we move along the 4th axis. (a good way to visualise this is analogue Film, a series of single images that display consecutively)

if we then theorise that, just as a 3rd dimensional 'object' is consecutive instances of 2nd dimensional 'objects' (3D printers is a good way to visualise the way that a 3rd dimensional object is consecutive 'layers' or 2nd dimensional objects).

Then we can also theorise that a 5th dimension would be consecutive instances of the 4th dimensional 'objects'...... Now this is the point we stop and meditate because this is where the 'divine' begins, to reach enlightenment one is in 'comprehension' of the 4th dimension allowing one to pass onto the 5th dimension which is as mysterious/incomprehensible as the 4th dimension is to the 3rd. or the 2nd is to the 3rd which is easier to demonstrate

from a 2nd dimension state (that only posses an x-axis and y-axis) no information about the depth (z-axis) is given, so in a practical example if you gave a sculptor a 2nd dimensional image say a triangle, it gives them nothing to go by regarding 3rd dimensional form it could just as equally be a prism or a pyramid or multiple deviations of either, From a single 2nd dimension instance one could not differentiate. but given multiple 2nd dimensional images one could garner a reasonable idea about the true form of the 3rd dimensional object.

So from a single instance of the 4th dimension (one life) we cannot possibly hope to perceive the true state of the 5th dimension, only through multiple instances of the 4th dimension can we hope to gain a a better understanding of the true form of the 5th dimension (enlightenment).

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:15 am



 ::D:: 

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Post by stardesk on Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:48 pm

Fascinating, and for me liking philosophy, excellent comments folks. I haven’t time now but will try to answer the ‘nothingness’ question tomorrow. For the time being here’s another piece on God’s mentality.

Having mowed the lawns this morning, and whilst sitting in the sun, looking round at all the flowers now blossoming, and the shrubs and trees leafing up and some with blossoms, it occurred to me that if I didn’t bother with it anymore, just left it, it wouldn’t be long before weeds grew in profusion and took over, spoiling the whole garden. But surely, this just what God did, (assuming he exists of course.) He supposedly created everything but then seems to have sat back and left it, not bothering with the blemishes, not caring if his creation was being spoiled through his neglect. What kind of gardener who cared about his creation would do that? Having created something, would you sit back and watch something or someone come along and spoil it? Of course you wouldn’t.
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Post by eddie on Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:58 pm

stardesk wrote:Fascinating, and for me liking philosophy, excellent comments folks. I haven’t time now but will try to answer the ‘nothingness’ question tomorrow. For the time being here’s another piece on God’s mentality.

Having mowed the lawns this morning, and whilst sitting in the sun, looking round at all the flowers now blossoming, and the shrubs and trees leafing up and some with blossoms, it occurred to me that if I didn’t bother with it anymore, just left it, it wouldn’t be long before weeds grew in profusion and took over, spoiling the whole garden. But surely, this just what God did, (assuming he exists of course.) He supposedly created everything but then seems to have sat back and left it, not bothering with the blemishes, not caring if his creation was being spoiled through his neglect. What kind of gardener who cared about his creation would do that? Having created something, would you sit back and watch something or someone come along and spoil it? Of course you wouldn’t.

Perhaps he had faith in us.
Perhaps he has more than one garden.
Perhaps he wasn't as fussed about it as we think he might've been.
Perhaps the phone rang and it was a really long call.

Hallo star, hope you're well  sunny 

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Post by veya_victaous on Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:39 pm

eddie wrote:
stardesk wrote:Fascinating, and for me liking philosophy, excellent comments folks. I haven’t time now but will try to answer the ‘nothingness’ question tomorrow. For the time being here’s another piece on God’s mentality.

Having mowed the lawns this morning, and whilst sitting in the sun, looking round at all the flowers now blossoming, and the shrubs and trees leafing up and some with blossoms, it occurred to me that if I didn’t bother with it anymore, just left it, it wouldn’t be long before weeds grew in profusion and took over, spoiling the whole garden. But surely, this just what God did, (assuming he exists of course.) He supposedly created everything but then seems to have sat back and left it, not bothering with the blemishes, not caring if his creation was being spoiled through his neglect. What kind of gardener who cared about his creation would do that? Having created something, would you sit back and watch something or someone come along and spoil it? Of course you wouldn’t.

Perhaps he had faith in us.
Perhaps he has more than one garden.
Perhaps he wasn't as fussed about it as we think he might've been.
Perhaps the phone rang and it was a really long call.

Hallo star, hope you're well  sunny 

 Laughing Laughing Laughing  I really like that one  Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing 

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Post by stardesk on Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:07 am

Good morning Veya, quite well thanks, I hope you are too.

NOTHINGNESS
I’ve given a lot of thought to the question of ‘nothingness,’ and these are my thoughts on the subject.

For we humans to envisage a nothingness is impossible. To understand it, would seem to be beyond our brain’s capabilities. Try if you will, to sit quiet and empty your mind, think of nothing. You can’t do it, for the mind is geared to work 24/7, that’s why we dream, for the mind needs to work non-stop. Thus to understand a universal nothingness is impossible. Also my philosophical reasoning tells me that to  understand the concept of no Universe is also beyond our reasoning. There are two opposites which govern just about everything: positive and negative. Neither one can exist without the other, for they give each other a quality, quantity, balance, the opportunity to function. Thus a ‘nothingness’ is, to my mind and reasoning impossible. How can you have a universe come into existence from nothing? Surely, though it is beyond our understanding, life, however we define it, must have existed in some way for all eternity. Even if there are universes in other dimensions that means they are still existing, though perhaps in a different space and time.
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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:13 pm

Hi Star...I repost part of one of the above posts, which shows YOUR conclusion to be reasonable....


Returning to the original question, why does anything exist at all? It is not because of God but for another reason. The English writer T.H. White said in The Once and Future King (about King Arthur):

"Anything not forbidden is compulsory."

Nothingness, the absence of everything, a state of no content where events never take place, is the logical "zero-point energy" of the universe. It is the simplest state conceivable. It requires nothing. No effort has to be exerted to create it. It is the lowest energy state possible because it contains no energy. The energy level is eternally zero. Nothing can be more stable than nothingness because nothing ever happens to destabilise it. There is nothing to which anything ever could happen. The "path of least resistance" begins and ends here. If such a state were logically possible then it would certainly happen since it is the simplest possible system, requiring no effort, no things, nothing at all.

The great Illuminist Leibniz introduced the Principle of Sufficient Reason:
"...we can find no true or existent fact, no true assertion, without there being a sufficient reason why it is thus and not otherwise..."

There is a prima facie sufficient reason why there should be nothing rather than something - nothing could ever be simpler, more stable and require less work than nothingness. And if there is perfect nothingness then there can never be "something" because how could something emerge from nothingness? There is nothing there from which to emerge.

So there is only one reason why existence is not eternal nothingness and infinite void - this state is forbidden. It is quite simply impossible. If it were possible then it would certainly exist and there would be no universe as we know it.

It is not God who makes it impossible. It is the properties of nothingness itself. Immanuel Kant asserted in his critique of the ontological "proof" of the existence of God that existence is not a predicate i.e. it is not a property that things can either possess or lack. For someone to say that unicorns exist, he must be able to point to an example in the real world of a unicorn. If he can't then he's talking nonsense. Merely saying that something exists does not give it the property of existence in the real world. You must demonstrate its existence. A good explanation of Kant's subtle argument can be found here:

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/theistic-proofs/the-ontological-argument/st-anselms-ontological-argument/existence-is-not-a-predicate/

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Post by stardesk on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:34 pm

Hi Victor, excellent philosophical arguements aren't they. But there's one comment I've picked out to bolster my own claims that evolution is true:

'Merely saying that something exists does not give it the property of existence in the real world. You must demonstrate its existence.'
And that statement says it all. The existance of god cannot be proved, it is a mental desire and wish to believe in him. Whereas with evolution there is a mountain of evidence, worked on, analysed, dated, etc etc, by scientists in several different fields of study, from all over the world, who will inspect and analyse someone elses work, verifying or even debunking it, there are no more false claims as happened years ago with Piltdown Man. That was a hoax but thankfully that sort of thing doesn't happen these days.

Evolution has been demonstrated as a reality, a fact, that can longer be refuted, as hard as Creationists try.

I'm pleased to see this comment which compliments my own belief as stated earlier:
'If it were possible then it would certainly exist (nonthingness) and there would be no universe as we know it.'Excellent. Thanks Victor.
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Post by eddie on Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:53 pm

God's Mentality - Page 6 Image30

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Post by stardesk on Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:58 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:this however provides the concepts for why the creator didnt create another creator of equal power as companion/equal etc...
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Hi Victor. I've been told on several occasions that all the evils in this world, and natural catastrophes are Satan's doing. If that's the case then to my mind he is as powerful as God. God being aware of all things past, present, and future, he would have known what Satan was going to turn out like, therefore, if he's so powerful, why didn't he eliminate Satan right from the start?

It would seem as though God delliberately put a bug in the fruit bowl, and let the fruit go bad.

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Post by Guest on Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:03 pm

One would think that 'God' would work his powers and give good people a peaceful death rather than the harrowing, traumatic and hugely painful deaths some have to endure.

Good question there stars, regards to why God' did not eliminate Satan.

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Post by stardesk on Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:29 pm

Hi JD. Yes it's always puzzled me as to why He allowed evil, and as you said, painful sickness to invade us. When we study DNA, genetics, and viruses etc, we find these attributes are a natural process, especially viruses which as you know, change from time to time, to combat anti-viral vaccinations, such as the flu virus. If God created viruses as well, the he deliberately placed a time bomb on the planet. What a nasty being he is.

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Post by Guest on Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:35 pm

stardesk wrote:Hi JD. Yes it's always puzzled me as to why He allowed evil, and as you said, painful sickness to invade us. When we study DNA, genetics, and viruses etc, we find these attributes are a natural process, especially viruses which as you know, change from time to time, to combat anti-viral vaccinations, such as the flu virus. If God created viruses as well, the he deliberately placed a time bomb on the planet. What a nasty being he is.

Absolutely agree! How you doing Stardesk, this has been a very interesting thread. Victor has pointed me towards some reading, altogether the kind of thread we should have more of.

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Post by Guest on Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:44 pm

stardesk wrote:Hi JD. Yes it's always puzzled me as to why He allowed evil, and as you said, painful sickness to invade us. When we study DNA, genetics, and viruses etc, we find these attributes are a natural process, especially viruses which as you know, change from time to time, to combat anti-viral vaccinations, such as the flu virus. If God created viruses as well, the he deliberately placed a time bomb on the planet. What a nasty being he is.


Hey I definitely agree Stars, he deliberately planted so much disease in our DNA, and it's not the fact we have to die, it's the way many folk die.

It just doesn't add up eh mate, as I don't think we are in for anything better in the afterlife...apart from being pain free.

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Post by Eilzel on Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:16 pm

Joy Division wrote:
stardesk wrote:Hi JD. Yes it's always puzzled me as to why He allowed evil, and as you said, painful sickness to invade us. When we study DNA, genetics, and viruses etc, we find these attributes are a natural process, especially viruses which as you know, change from time to time, to combat anti-viral vaccinations, such as the flu virus. If God created viruses as well, the he deliberately placed a time bomb on the planet. What a nasty being he is.


Hey I definitely agree Stars, he deliberately planted so much disease in our DNA, and it's not the fact we have to die, it's the way many folk die.

It just doesn't add up eh mate, as I don't think we are in for anything better in the afterlife...apart from being pain free.

Sums up my point on this too JD- no reason for it; unless God is flawed, or cruel, or doesn't care.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:16 am

stardesk wrote:Good morning Veya, quite well thanks, I hope you are too.

NOTHINGNESS
I’ve given a lot of thought to the question of ‘nothingness,’ and these are my thoughts on the subject.

For we humans to envisage a nothingness is impossible. To understand it, would seem to be beyond our brain’s capabilities. Try if you will, to sit quiet and empty your mind, think of nothing. You can’t do it, for the mind is geared to work 24/7, that’s why we dream, for the mind needs to work non-stop. Thus to understand a universal nothingness is impossible. Also my philosophical reasoning tells me that to  understand the concept of no Universe is also beyond our reasoning. There are two opposites which govern just about everything: positive and negative. Neither one can exist without the other, for they give each other a quality, quantity, balance, the opportunity to function. Thus a ‘nothingness’ is, to my mind and reasoning impossible. How can you have a universe come into existence from nothing? Surely, though it is beyond our understanding, life, however we define it, must have existed in some way for all eternity. Even if there are universes in other dimensions that means they are still existing, though perhaps in a different space and time.

Agreed

on a lighter note name impossible things

1. to truly do nothing
2. cut something in 'half' with out both sides being equal

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Post by stardesk on Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:19 pm

Hi Sassy, hope you're keeping well and healthy. I'm ok thanks.

It's nice to see some of you in agreement with me, but where's Dibley and Gigatt? I'm surprised they're not here preaching creation from their pulpit.

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:21 pm

stardesk wrote:Hi Sassy, hope you're keeping well and healthy. I'm ok thanks.

It's nice to see some of you in agreement with me, but where's Dibley and Gigatt? I'm surprised they're not here preaching creation from their pulpit.

They left, with claims of being 'bullied off'    lol!    As if!  Rolling Eyes 

I'm doing well thanks Stardesk and my brother and I are taking my Dad on holiday at the end of next month, at 92 he wants to go before he can't manage it any more!

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Post by Guest on Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:31 pm

Sassy wrote:
stardesk wrote:Hi Sassy, hope you're keeping well and healthy. I'm ok thanks.

It's nice to see some of you in agreement with me, but where's Dibley and Gigatt? I'm surprised they're not here preaching creation from their pulpit.

They left, with claims of being 'bullied off'    lol!    As if!  Rolling Eyes 

I'm doing well thanks Stardesk and my brother and I are taking my Dad on holiday at the end of next month, at 92 he wants to go before he can't manage it any more!


92 eh!! ... He has seen so many changes in life!
Ah, bless him Sass, and I hope you all have a great time Smile

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