Has Britain changed for the better? 1945-2013 scenarios

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Post by eddie on Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:32 pm

SCHOOL-1945 vs. 2013




Scenario : Johnny and Mark get into a fight after school.

1945 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends.

2013 - Police called, and they arrest Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it. Both children go to anger management programmes for 3 months. School governors hold meeting to implement bullying prevention programmes.




Scenario : Robbie disruptive in Class - other students cannot work.

1945 - Robbie sent to the office and given six of the best by the Principal. Returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.

2013 - Robbie given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. Tested for ADHD - result deemed to be positive. Robbie's parents get fortnightly disability payments and school gets extra funding from government because Robbie has a disability.





Scenario : Billy breaks a window in his neighbour's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.

1945 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.

2013 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy removed to foster care; joins a gang; ends up in jail.




Scenario : Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.

1945 - Mark gets glass of water from Principal to take aspirin with. Passes exams, becomes a solicitor.

2013 - Police called, car searched for drugs and weapons. Mark expelled from school for drug taking. Ends up as a drop out.




Scenario : Johnny takes apart leftover fireworks from Bonfire Night, puts them in a paint tin & blows up a wasp's nest.

1945 - Wasps die.

2013 - Police & Anti-Terrorism Squad called. Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, investigate parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated. Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly in an airplane again.




Scenario : Johnny falls over while running during morning break and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. She hugs him to comfort him.

1945 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing footie. No damage done.

2013 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in prison. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy and ends up gay.




Ok so far-fetched but possibly not so far-fetched in some cases??


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Post by nicko on Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:05 pm

eddie, I'm a lot older than you, but it was just as you'v said.
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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:34 pm

Brilliant - and not so far fetched! I specially liked the bit about taking apart the fireworks - my own son and his mates did this; didn't blow up any wasps' nests but did remove his eyebrows! How times change, and how did this ridiculous nonsense take such a hold?

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:10 pm

Tesstacious wrote:Brilliant - and not so far fetched!  I specially liked the bit about taking apart the fireworks - my own son and his mates did this; didn't blow up any wasps' nests but did remove his eyebrows!  How times change, and how did this ridiculous nonsense take such a hold?


the grey faceless ones, of the hive mind took over. If its fun dont do it, if its effective and cheap, replace it with something ineffective and expensive....you WILL be assimilated...
you are a CRIMINAL if you dont think like us, act like us and more importantly, unthinkingly agree with us at ALL times....

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:15 pm

Can anybody cite an instance in which any of the ridiculous scenarios happened?

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:17 pm

eddie wrote:                      SCHOOL-1945 vs. 2013




Scenario : Johnny and Mark get into a fight after school.

1945 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends.

2013 - Police called, and they arrest Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it. Both children go to anger management programmes for 3 months. School governors hold meeting to implement bullying prevention programmes.




Scenario : Robbie disruptive in Class - other students cannot work.

1945 - Robbie sent to the office and given six of the best by the Principal. Returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.

2013 - Robbie given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. Tested for ADHD - result deemed to be positive. Robbie's parents get fortnightly disability payments and school gets extra funding from government because Robbie has a disability.





Scenario : Billy breaks a window in his neighbour's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.

1945 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.

2013 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy removed to foster care; joins a gang; ends up in jail.




Scenario : Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.

1945 - Mark gets glass of water from Principal to take aspirin with. Passes exams, becomes a solicitor.

2013 - Police called, car searched for drugs and weapons. Mark expelled from school for drug taking. Ends up as a drop out.




Scenario : Johnny takes apart leftover fireworks from Bonfire Night, puts them in a paint tin & blows up a wasp's nest.

1945 - Wasps die.

2013 - Police & Anti-Terrorism Squad called. Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, investigate parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated. Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly in an airplane again.




Scenario : Johnny falls over while running during morning break and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. She hugs him to comfort him.

1945 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing footie. No damage done.

2013 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in prison. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy and ends up gay.




Ok so far-fetched but possibly not so far-fetched in some cases??


You just know I'm not going to be one to nod along with this  Smile 

1, But some kids simply got battered; ended up insecure and pushed around all their lives. The bullies remain bullies forever.

2. Sometimes however teachers just went overboard and exercised ridiculous levels of abuse against children which were uncalled for and left some pupils scarred both emotionally and physically.

3. While another kids dad whipped him with the belt out of pure frustration but the boy never cared telling anyone cause no one would believe him anyway- if he got whipped he MUST have done something wrong right? Kid ends up resenting father.

4. This is equally ridiculous but can't think an equally ridiculous counter haha.

5. Kids fire fireworks at people; at pets; at buildings; the fireworks blow up in their faces causing permanent injury- and society wonders how this could happen  Rolling Eyes 

6. Kids are sexually abused but can't tell anyone; they never can; and go to the grave often without ever being able to share the suffering that pained them. Meanwhile actual gay kids are forced to keep shtum through fear of the law and subject to social humiliation and suspicion.

I know all those above are ridiculous and intended to be. But the reason I don't honestly see the funny side is because shit like that is designed to give the impression EVERY social change is a bad thing and we would do better to just wind the clocks right back to a time when everything was 'perfect'. It wasn't perfect; their were problems people just didn't want to know about them so pretended they didn't exist; the servile wife, the abusive teacher, the abused son or daughter, the closeted gay, the black second-class citizens etc- things changed for a reason. We may have problems now but they had problems then too.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:25 pm

Eilzel wrote:
eddie wrote:                      SCHOOL-1945 vs. 2013




Scenario : Johnny and Mark get into a fight after school.

1945 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends.

2013 - Police called, and they arrest Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it. Both children go to anger management programmes for 3 months. School governors hold meeting to implement bullying prevention programmes.




Scenario : Robbie disruptive in Class - other students cannot work.

1945 - Robbie sent to the office and given six of the best by the Principal. Returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.

2013 - Robbie given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. Tested for ADHD - result deemed to be positive. Robbie's parents get fortnightly disability payments and school gets extra funding from government because Robbie has a disability.





Scenario : Billy breaks a window in his neighbour's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.

1945 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.

2013 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy removed to foster care; joins a gang; ends up in jail.




Scenario : Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.

1945 - Mark gets glass of water from Principal to take aspirin with. Passes exams, becomes a solicitor.

2013 - Police called, car searched for drugs and weapons. Mark expelled from school for drug taking. Ends up as a drop out.




Scenario : Johnny takes apart leftover fireworks from Bonfire Night, puts them in a paint tin & blows up a wasp's nest.

1945 - Wasps die.

2013 - Police & Anti-Terrorism Squad called. Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, investigate parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated. Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly in an airplane again.




Scenario : Johnny falls over while running during morning break and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. She hugs him to comfort him.

1945 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing footie. No damage done.

2013 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in prison. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy and ends up gay.




Ok so far-fetched but possibly not so far-fetched in some cases??


You just know I'm not going to be one to nod along with this  Smile 

1, But some kids simply got battered; ended up insecure and pushed around all their lives. The bullies remain bullies forever.

2. Sometimes however teachers just went overboard and exercised ridiculous levels of abuse against children which were uncalled for and left some pupils scarred both emotionally and physically.

3. While another kids dad whipped him with the belt out of pure frustration but the boy never cared telling anyone cause no one would believe him anyway- if he got whipped he MUST have done something wrong right? Kid ends up resenting father.

4. This is equally ridiculous but can't think an equally ridiculous counter haha.

5. Kids fire fireworks at people; at pets; at buildings; the fireworks blow up in their faces causing permanent injury- and society wonders how this could happen  Rolling Eyes 

6. Kids are sexually abused but can't tell anyone; they never can; and go to the grave often without ever being able to share the suffering that pained them. Meanwhile actual gay kids are forced to keep shtum through fear of the law and subject to social humiliation and suspicion.

I know all those above are ridiculous and intended to be. But the reason I don't honestly see the funny side is because shit like that is designed to give the impression EVERY social change is a bad thing and we would do better to just wind the clocks right back to a time when everything was 'perfect'. It wasn't perfect; their were problems people just didn't want to know about them so pretended they didn't exist; the servile wife, the abusive teacher, the abused son or daughter, the closeted gay, the black second-class citizens etc- things changed for a reason. We may have problems now but they had problems then too.

its ok we all know the real reason... Smile 

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:27 pm

You know I saw you had answered and just knew it would be some boring, pointless comment that contributes nothing-you're good at them you know...


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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:28 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:Can anybody cite an instance in which any of the ridiculous scenarios happened?
We don't have to - wouldn't have time anyway, there'd be too many instances. Try reading the papers, watching the news, going into a school..... plenty there.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:30 pm

Eilzel wrote:You know I saw you had answered and just knew it would be some boring, pointless comment that contributes nothing-you're good at them you know...


but none the less true... Smile 

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:37 pm

Tesstacious wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Can anybody cite an instance in which any of the ridiculous scenarios happened?
We don't have to - wouldn't have time anyway, there'd be too many instances.  Try reading the papers, watching the news, going into a school..... plenty there.

I didn't ask for all of them, just one.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:42 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Tesstacious wrote:
We don't have to - wouldn't have time anyway, there'd be too many instances.  Try reading the papers, watching the news, going into a school..... plenty there.

I didn't ask for all of them, just one.

Okay - quick google...

"A 12 year-old boy was arrested at Tasker Milward School in Haverfordwest yesterday (Thursday) following a disturbance on the school site.

A spokesman for Dyfed-Powys Police said they had received a call at about 1.50pm of “an ongoing incident” at the school. The spokesman added: “Two children had attended the site, and were causing a disturbance and being abusive therefore police assistance was requested.

“A 12 year-old boy was arrested on suspicion of criminal damage and section 5 Public Order Act, and has now been bailed pending further enquiries. A 13 year old girl was also taken from the scene by officers.” Social media postings later suggested that a knife was involved but police said that no weapons were involved in the incident.

http://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/10928786.Boy__12__arrested_after_disturbance_at_Tasker_Milward_School/

So basically a 12 yr old boy and 13 yr old girl having a ruck. Blown out of all proportion.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:43 pm

Well, I was born in 1945, and this total tosh.   London was a complete mess, bomb damage everywhere.   My grandparents lived in a council flat in Wandsworth, one of many.   There was a tiny toilet by the front door, a coal hod in the tiny hall, the kitchen was 8x6 and had a bath against one wall with a geyser to heat the water.   The water from the geyser had to be poured into a bucket emptied into the kitchen sink to wash, it was the only basin.

There was terrible smog, if you think today's is bad, you should have lived in the early 50s.

Public transport outside of the cities was negligible, if you lived in the country, your way of getting to the nearest town were very few and far between and unless you had a car, which was considered a total luxury.   You had to walk down the street to go to the phonebox, because not many people had a phone.   We didn't get a TV until about 1955, although I used to love the radio.

TB was rife, my Mum got it and was in hospital for 2 years and not allowed to see my brother and myself in case we got it, I had friends who died from diptheria and measles.   Two of my cousins got polio and one ended up in an iron lung.   Education ended for many at 14, there was asbestos floating round factories which they knew about but never bothered to tell anyone, people were dying everyday from industrial accidents, I could go on all day.

I think someone not only has they rose coloured specs on, they have added filters.

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:50 pm

Sassy wrote:Well, I was born in 1945, and this total tosh.   London was a complete mess, bomb damage everywhere.   My grandparents lived in a council flat in Wandsworth, one of many.   There was a tiny toilet by the front door, a coal hod in the tiny hall, the kitchen was 8x6 and had a bath against one wall with a geyser to heat the water.   The water from the geyser had to be poured into a bucket emptied into the kitchen sink to wash, it was the only basin.

There was terrible smog, if you think today's is bad, you should have lived in the early 50s.

Public transport outside of the cities was negligible, if you lived in the country, your way of getting to the nearest town were very few and far between and unless you had a car, which was considered a total luxury.   You had to walk down the street to go to the phonebox, because not many people had a phone.   We didn't get a TV until about 1955, although I used to love the radio.

TB was rife, my Mum got it and was in hospital for 2 years and not allowed to see my brother and myself in case we got it, I had friends who died from diptheria and measles.   Two of my cousins got polio and one ended up in an iron lung.   Education ended for many at 14, there was asbestos floating round factories which they knew about but never bothered to tell anyone, people were dying everyday from industrial accidents, I could go on all day.

I think someone not only has they rose coloured specs on, they have added filters.

Well said Sass. You know I've lost count of the amount of records I've read of people grumbling in history about 'modern society'. From ancient Greece and Rome, medieval England, the 18th century, the Edwardians, and (funnily enough) people in the 40s, 50s and 60s complaining about how society was degenerating from their childhoods  Rolling Eyes 

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:51 pm

Sassy wrote:Well, I was born in 1945, and this total tosh.   London was a complete mess, bomb damage everywhere.   My grandparents lived in a council flat in Wandsworth, one of many.   There was a tiny toilet by the front door, a coal hod in the tiny hall, the kitchen was 8x6 and had a bath against one wall with a geyser to heat the water.   The water from the geyser had to be poured into a bucket emptied into the kitchen sink to wash, it was the only basin.

There was terrible smog, if you think today's is bad, you should have lived in the early 50s.

Public transport outside of the cities was negligible, if you lived in the country, your way of getting to the nearest town were very few and far between and unless you had a car, which was considered a total luxury.   You had to walk down the street to go to the phonebox, because not many people had a phone.   We didn't get a TV until about 1955, although I used to love the radio.

TB was rife, my Mum got it and was in hospital for 2 years and not allowed to see my brother and myself in case we got it, I had friends who died from diptheria and measles.   Two of my cousins got polio and one ended up in an iron lung.   Education ended for many at 14, there was asbestos floating round factories which they knew about but never bothered to tell anyone, people were dying everyday from industrial accidents, I could go on all day.

I think someone not only has they rose coloured specs on, they have added filters.
Swings and roundabouts Sassy. One working earner on basic wage could support his whole family easily, take his pick of jobs or places to rent out of the local paper, get his bins emptied twice a week for the princely sum of a few pounds a year in rates. Plenty of school places mostly in walking distance of your house, strong community spirit even in built-up areas (like Chelsea my home town), play streets where kids played in the open safely... it's endless, good and bad in both eras, but I think this thread's about using common sense, and the past wins that contest hands down.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:01 pm

Well, we will have to agree to disagree, because although some things have gone OTT, I think the number of people who died or were badly injured at work, etc, the children who died from diseases that are now preventable, the children who suffered abuse and were never believed etc makes the OTT of today look like a picnic.

I would rather, much rather, they were a bit OTT than the terrible things that went on then, that people took for granted and never even thought to question. As for communities, I have a community, I had one where I used to live, my daughter lives in a very close knit community in a very diverse neighbourhood. Go back to what was going on in 1945, no way.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:31 pm

Tesstacious wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

I didn't ask for all of them, just one.

Okay - quick google...

"A 12 year-old boy was arrested at Tasker Milward School in Haverfordwest yesterday (Thursday) following a disturbance on the school site.

A spokesman for Dyfed-Powys Police said they had received a call at about 1.50pm of “an ongoing incident” at the school.  The spokesman added: “Two children had attended the site, and were causing a disturbance and being abusive therefore police assistance was requested.

“A 12 year-old boy was arrested on suspicion of criminal damage and section 5 Public Order Act, and has now been bailed pending further enquiries.  A 13 year old girl was also taken from the scene by officers.”   Social media postings later suggested that a knife was involved but police said that no weapons were involved in the incident.

http://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/10928786.Boy__12__arrested_after_disturbance_at_Tasker_Milward_School/

So basically a 12 yr old boy and 13 yr old girl having a ruck.  Blown out of all proportion.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:36 pm

Tesstacious wrote:
Tesstacious wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

I didn't ask for all of them, just one.

Okay - quick google...

"A 12 year-old boy was arrested at Tasker Milward School in Haverfordwest yesterday (Thursday) following a disturbance on the school site.

A spokesman for Dyfed-Powys Police said they had received a call at about 1.50pm of “an ongoing incident” at the school.  The spokesman added: “Two children had attended the site, and were causing a disturbance and being abusive therefore police assistance was requested.

“A 12 year-old boy was arrested on suspicion of criminal damage and section 5 Public Order Act, and has now been bailed pending further enquiries.  A 13 year old girl was also taken from the scene by officers.”   Social media postings later suggested that a knife was involved but police said that no weapons were involved in the incident.

http://www.westerntelegraph.co.uk/news/10928786.Boy__12__arrested_after_disturbance_at_Tasker_Milward_School/

So basically a 12 yr old boy and 13 yr old girl having a ruck.  Blown out of all proportion.

That could be almost anything, and we have no idea what became of them. Proves nothing, and you cannot judge the state of everyday life by what you see in the news media. The news media highlight the most unusual events, not the most common events.

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:37 pm

Sassy wrote:Well, we will have to agree to disagree, because although some things have gone OTT, I think the number of people who died or were badly injured at work, etc, the children who died from diseases that are now preventable, the children who suffered abuse and were never believed etc makes the OTT of today look like a picnic.

I would rather, much rather, they were a bit OTT than the terrible things that went on then, that people took for granted and never even thought to question.   As for communities, I have a community, I had one where I used to live, my daughter lives in a very close knit community in a very diverse neighbourhood.   Go back to what was going on in 1945, no way.

I (obviously) wasn't around in the 40s/50s. But I consider the fact I am gay and look back on how different things may have been with that in mind.

If I considered acting on my feelings I could be jailed.
I could never be in a 'real' marriage, but may have ended up in a sham one ruining my life and that of some poor girl.
My Dad would have rejected me (I know this, because my Dad was incredibly homophobic until only around 10 years ago when his attitude started to change).
My mixed race relationship would have shunned by society.
No relationship I ever had would have been taken seriously, and in any case, a relationship would have been much harder to come about since every gay person would have been very secret about it and I'm not camp at all so no one would ever know.
I could be fired from a job if my employer found out I was gay.

Admittedly this position applies only to gay people then and now; but similar lists could be applied to black people or people of other races; women; children; etc.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:59 pm

1945 Husband rapes his wife, gets away with it

2014, Husband gets prosecuted


1945 children get abused and have nothing to turn to and vastly offenders many get away with this...

2014 children still get abused but much more help is around for them, they are given confidence to speak up, many more are being convicted


1945 Hardly any woman in middle class jobs roles let alone as business heads.


2014 many more are no empowered to run business yet more work need to be done.



1945 wives are treated like doormats, not allowed in many cases to have lives for themselves and are at the beck and call of their husbands.


2014 wives are as liberated as men to have what life they wish to have within the marriage.



1945 no checks for people in positions working with vulnerable people.


2014 now we have plenty of checks to help prevent any criminality.



I could go on the list is endless and whilst there maybe so some real daft laws or principles held today as rightly pointed out by Eddie, the views I have showed clearly outweigh the backward views that were held in 1945 in many areas I have shown. Clearly life is much better for people today and yes things still need sorting as some rules are absurd, but am sure many who faced untold discrimination because they were women, gay, minorities, religious, now enjoy the same equality that others have showing far more how life is better today for all than it was in 1945

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:09 pm

Great alternative list didge  ::D:: 

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:51 pm

yer...right, and both lots are somewhat missing the obvious.....

we have gained a lot over the years, but we have also given up a lot....that we need not have done...

discipline in schools is at an all time low
general respect in life is at an all time low
your ability to choose (almost anything) is at an all time low
you are a victim of the nanny state which dictates many many of your choices
you are forced to accept responsibility for others against your wish and against all common sense...
example of that one....
car driver...dark country road....wanker on bike with no lights and dark clothes OR alternatively drunken wanker in dark clothes staggering along on wrong side of road....BANG.....who is automatically in the wrong...who's insurance gets hammered who's licence gets suspended....who (possibly) goes to jail? And dont tell me it doesnt happen....

bloody cyclists in road race, 6 or 8 abreast come round corner on wrong side....who gets done...??

the fact that it happens AT ALL...is wrong...

Another example...there are a LOT of rather "old fashioned" remedies about things like (and I'm sure you oldies will remember them) like gentian violet and acriflavin used on scrapes grazes and minor burns brilliant stuff, and NOTHING has ever replaced them that is as effective, quick and simple....GONE...because some plonkers "misused "them...so everyone suffers....Now dont get me wrong a lot of "old" medicines were a bit dubious but those two were not..... and there are plenty others.

then we have creosote...again banned from public use because a few idiots misused it...splashing it around like water,,,,what do we have to put up with...creosote "substitute" which is neither creosote NOR an effective substitute, and is about 5 times the price.

you are controlled and watched how you express yourself, you have to talk in riddles because plain speech could be deemed "offensive" to someone, somewhere.




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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:09 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:Can anybody cite an instance in which any of the ridiculous scenarios happened?

When my son was at primary he fell and was very distressed, when I went to collect him Mrs Haig apologised to me, I asked her whatever for and she told me my boy was so distressed without thinking she gave him a hug. It was against the rules to hug a child and so she had to tell me.
I told her the only problem I would have had would be with a teacher who can stand by an upset child and not want to comfort that child.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:11 pm

Nems wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Can anybody cite an instance in which any of the ridiculous scenarios happened?

When my son was at primary he fell and was very distressed, when I went to collect him Mrs Haig apologised to me, I asked her whatever for and she told me my boy was so distressed without thinking she gave him a hug. It was against the rules to hug a child and so she had to tell me.
I told her the only problem I would have had would be with a teacher who can stand by an upset child and not want to comfort that child.

OK, but one ill advised rule doesn't prove that entire list.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:13 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Nems wrote:

When my son was at primary he fell and was very distressed, when I went to collect him Mrs Haig apologised to me, I asked her whatever for and she told me my boy was so distressed without thinking she gave him a hug. It was against the rules to hug a child and so she had to tell me.
I told her the only problem I would have had would be with a teacher who can stand by an upset child and not want to comfort that child.

OK, but one ill advised rule doesn't prove that entire list.

You asked someone to cite an incident - I did

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:13 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Nems wrote:

When my son was at primary he fell and was very distressed, when I went to collect him Mrs Haig apologised to me, I asked her whatever for and she told me my boy was so distressed without thinking she gave him a hug. It was against the rules to hug a child and so she had to tell me.
I told her the only problem I would have had would be with a teacher who can stand by an upset child and not want to comfort that child.

OK, but one ill advised rule doesn't prove that entire list.

Exactly. And as didge's list proves what Tess said, it's swings and roundabouts- a lot is better now though and it would take little to remove certainly 'silly' rules. I know if I was given a choice I wouldn't want things to go back to the way they were- not even 20 years ago.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:56 pm

Nems wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Nems wrote:

When my son was at primary he fell and was very distressed, when I went to collect him Mrs Haig apologised to me, I asked her whatever for and she told me my boy was so distressed without thinking she gave him a hug. It was against the rules to hug a child and so she had to tell me.
I told her the only problem I would have had would be with a teacher who can stand by an upset child and not want to comfort that child.

OK, but one ill advised rule doesn't prove that entire list.

You asked someone to cite an incident - I did

Nobody was actually hurt in the incident you cited -- but in the original list, people were expelled, arrested, jailed, forced into anger management, forced onto powerful drugs, etc. No comparison and I'm surprised you don't see that.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:06 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Nems wrote:

You asked someone to cite an incident - I did

Nobody was actually hurt in the incident you cited -- but in the original list, people were expelled, arrested, jailed, forced into anger management, forced onto powerful drugs, etc. No comparison and I'm surprised you don't see that.

If I had chosen to pursue a complaint against the teacher I could have done. Kinell!

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:12 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Sassy wrote:Well, we will have to agree to disagree, because although some things have gone OTT, I think the number of people who died or were badly injured at work, etc, the children who died from diseases that are now preventable, the children who suffered abuse and were never believed etc makes the OTT of today look like a picnic.

I would rather, much rather, they were a bit OTT than the terrible things that went on then, that people took for granted and never even thought to question.   As for communities, I have a community, I had one where I used to live, my daughter lives in a very close knit community in a very diverse neighbourhood.   Go back to what was going on in 1945, no way.

I (obviously) wasn't around in the 40s/50s. But I consider the fact I am gay and look back on how different things may have been with that in mind.

If I considered acting on my feelings I could be jailed.
I could never be in a 'real' marriage, but may have ended up in a sham one ruining my life and that of some poor girl.
My Dad would have rejected me (I know this, because my Dad was incredibly homophobic until only around 10 years ago when his attitude started to change).
My mixed race relationship would have shunned by society.
No relationship I ever had would have been taken seriously, and in any case, a relationship would have been much harder to come about since every gay person would have been very secret about it and I'm not camp at all so no one would ever know.
I could be fired from a job if my employer found out I was gay.

Admittedly this position applies only to gay people then and now; but similar lists could be applied to black people or people of other races; women; children; etc.

Absolutely Les, in fact you could have easily been in prison. When I think of all the bad things that were happening them it beats me how people romanticise it. In the flat under my Nan was a girl who dared to get pregnant, the way she was treated was abhorrent. I'm very pleased to say not by my Nan and Grandad because they recognised peoples frailties and didn't pass judgment, but that was unusual. So Health and Safety has gone a bit the other way. Better that, than the people who were getting severely injured doing they job and then were shoved on the scrap heap.

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Post by eddie on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:16 pm

The whole point is, is that people have become scared to be themselves ie teachers and policeman.

My sons teacher rang me and told me he was being too chatty in class.
I said "well if he doesn't stop, kick his arse out of the classroom or stick him in detention!"

You know what she said?
"Oh right, is that ok with you?"

 Shocked 

I said "erm yes?? Aren't you the teacher? It's your classroom do as you see fit!"

She told me that some parents create havoc when their children are made to have detention for talking....the teacher told me "You've no idea how hard it is sometimes  to get parents on our side!"

That is something very new to modern Britain!

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:17 pm

Nems wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:
Nems wrote:

You asked someone to cite an incident - I did

Nobody was actually hurt in the incident you cited -- but in the original list, people were expelled, arrested, jailed, forced into anger management, forced onto powerful drugs, etc. No comparison and I'm surprised you don't see that.

If I had chosen to pursue a complaint against the teacher I could have done. Kinell!
\

And are you sure that if you had complained, the teacher would be sacked and end up in a Muslim street gang, your son would be put into five years of therapy and "end up gay," you'd be shot full of Ritalin and forced to eat Halal veal, etc.?

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:18 pm

and then again sass i suppose its quite fair that should I be the unlucky motorist who flattens some brain dead pillock on his bike at 1 in the morning because he hasnt got lights OR light coloured clothes I WILL be blamed....its automatic, in fact I understand its POLICY to blame the motorist........

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:19 pm

However the fact that the girl was treated abhorrently did mean that less young girls made that mistake.

The fact that young single female getting pregnant is no longer even considered a mistake yet alone treated abhorrently means more young females are doing so which means more babies born into less than ideal lives.

Yes I know some single mums do a cracking job - that does not make the lives of the children of the many who do not any better

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:25 pm

sphinx wrote:However the fact that the girl was treated abhorrently did mean that less young girls made that mistake.

The fact that young single female getting pregnant is no longer even considered a mistake yet alone treated abhorrently means more young females are doing so which means more babies born into less than ideal lives.

Yes I know some single mums do a cracking job - that does not make the lives of the children of the many who do not any better

Wrong, that's a myth.   What happened was they went to the women down the street who used a knitting needle and many of them died, or they went to mother and baby homes and had their babes taken from them.   Many of them spent years trying to find the babies they they weren't allowed to keep and were traumatised for life.   That's why people like the Magdelene Sisters got away with what they did.

How can anyone think that is better?

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:26 pm

eddie wrote:The whole point is, is that people have become scared to be themselves ie teachers and policeman.

My sons teacher rang me and told me he was being too chatty in class.
I said "well if he doesn't stop, kick his arse out of the classroom or stick him in detention!"

You know what she said?
"Oh right, is that ok with you?"

 Shocked 

I said "erm yes?? Aren't you the teacher? It's your classroom do as you see fit!"

She told me that some parents create havoc when their children are made to have detention for talking....the teacher told me "You've no idea how hard it is sometimes  to get parents on our side!"

That is something very new to modern Britain!

I understand 'the whole point' Eds. But the danger here is the painting of the past as a model of how society should have remained; when as didge and sass and I have shown you could easily do a list the other way. I remember you posting that story and it is silly and no one denies things have got silly in schools in many areas- but it is the direct of comparison with a glorious past that never existed we are objecting to.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:28 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:and then again sass i suppose its quite fair that should I be the unlucky motorist who flattens some brain dead pillock on his bike at 1 in the morning because he hasnt got lights OR light coloured clothes I WILL be blamed....its automatic, in fact I understand its POLICY to blame the motorist........

Yep, totally recognise some things have gone too far, but in comparison to the number of people who had terrible lives because of what was allowed then, it's no contest in my book.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:29 pm

This is turning into such a beautifully absurd thread; my inner Discordian approves  ::D:: 

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Post by eddie on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:36 pm

Eilzel wrote:
eddie wrote:The whole point is, is that people have become scared to be themselves ie teachers and policeman.

My sons teacher rang me and told me he was being too chatty in class.
I said "well if he doesn't stop, kick his arse out of the classroom or stick him in detention!"

You know what she said?
"Oh right, is that ok with you?"

 Shocked 

I said "erm yes?? Aren't you the teacher? It's your classroom do as you see fit!"

She told me that some parents create havoc when their children are made to have detention for talking....the teacher told me "You've no idea how hard it is sometimes  to get parents on our side!"

That is something very new to modern Britain!

I understand 'the whole point' Eds. But the danger here is the painting of the past as a model of how society should have remained; when as didge and sass and I have shown you could easily do a list the other way. I remember you posting that story and it is silly and no one denies things have got silly in schools in many areas- but it is the direct of comparison with a glorious past that never existed we are objecting to.


Oh I know!! I didn't think that times past were any better tbh. You can find good and bad in all times.


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Post by Eilzel on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:37 pm

eddie wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

I understand 'the whole point' Eds. But the danger here is the painting of the past as a model of how society should have remained; when as didge and sass and I have shown you could easily do a list the other way. I remember you posting that story and it is silly and no one denies things have got silly in schools in many areas- but it is the direct of comparison with a glorious past that never existed we are objecting to.


Oh I know!! I didn't think that times past were any better tbh. You can find good and bad in all times.


Exactly  Smile  Sadly though things like this are what we hear with a touch of the 'genuine' from conservative groups  Rolling Eyes 

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:38 pm

No sassy what you are prepared to is is swap a new class of victim for an old one...
would you be so blase if it was your OH that was being led away to start 3 yrs for "death by dangerous driving" under those circumstances...Personally I recon you'd be raising Cain

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:42 pm

Sassy wrote:
sphinx wrote:However the fact that the girl was treated abhorrently did mean that less young girls made that mistake.

The fact that young single female getting pregnant is no longer even considered a mistake yet alone treated abhorrently means more young females are doing so which means more babies born into less than ideal lives.

Yes I know some single mums do a cracking job - that does not make the lives of the children of the many who do not any better

Wrong, that's a myth.   What happened was they went to the women down the street who used a knitting needle and many of them died, or they went to mother and baby homes and had their babes taken from them.   Many of them spent years trying to find the babies they they weren't allowed to keep and were traumatised for life.   That's why people like the Magdelene Sisters got away with what they did.

How can anyone think that is better?

No the myth is that it did not happen at all

The reality is it was less common.

I have seen enough children who would have had far better lives if they had been taken from their birth mothers and put up for adoption even allowing for the problems that come with adoption. To be honest some of the mothers would have had better lives as well.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:46 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:No sassy what you are prepared to is is swap a new class of victim for an old one...
would you be so blase if it was your OH that was being led away to start 3 yrs for "death by dangerous driving" under those circumstances...Personally I recon you'd be raising Cain

Victor I very much doubt that if you hadn't been drinking and the cyclist had no lights and no reflector vest that that would happen. And yes, if it did, obviously anyone would fight it. But in comparison to the iniquities that the workforce put up with and businesses got away with back then, it's a fight worth taking on.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:47 pm

sphinx wrote:
Sassy wrote:

Wrong, that's a myth.   What happened was they went to the women down the street who used a knitting needle and many of them died, or they went to mother and baby homes and had their babes taken from them.   Many of them spent years trying to find the babies they they weren't allowed to keep and were traumatised for life.   That's why people like the Magdelene Sisters got away with what they did.

How can anyone think that is better?

No the myth is that it did not happen at all

The reality is it was less common.

I have seen enough children who would have had far better lives if they had been taken from their birth mothers and put up for adoption even allowing for the problems that come with adoption.  To be honest some of the mothers would have had better lives as well.

I'm saying nothing after that, I'm too appalled.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:52 pm

ah well H&S is a different matter to road law....
one does NOT predicate upon the other...
so clearly we could have had one without the other...
the problem in the argument is that along with whats good is the presence of an awful lot of crap.
we are, aside from the desirable and necessary, subject to being regulated into fluffy pink bump suits and then regulated out of existence....

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:53 pm

sphinx wrote:
Sassy wrote:

Wrong, that's a myth.   What happened was they went to the women down the street who used a knitting needle and many of them died, or they went to mother and baby homes and had their babes taken from them.   Many of them spent years trying to find the babies they they weren't allowed to keep and were traumatised for life.   That's why people like the Magdelene Sisters got away with what they did.

How can anyone think that is better?

No the myth is that it did not happen at all

The reality is it was less common.

I have seen enough children who would have had far better lives if they had been taken from their birth mothers and put up for adoption even allowing for the problems that come with adoption.  To be honest some of the mothers would have had better lives as well.


 Shocked Shocked Shocked 

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:55 pm

Sphinx, try reading

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2007/oct/31/familyandrelationships.women

During the Second World War, child adoption remained an issue of concern on the Home Front, and the continuities and changes resulting from this period are examined in chapter seven. Just as in the First World War, the issues of war orphans and a rise in rates of illegitimacy prompted a reassessment of adoption policy and practice.

http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/806


Last edited by Sassy on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:55 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Nems wrote:

If I had chosen to pursue a complaint against the teacher I could have done. Kinell!
\

And are you sure that if you had complained, the teacher would be sacked and end up in a Muslim street gang, your son would be put into five years of therapy and "end up gay," you'd be shot full of Ritalin and forced to eat Halal veal, etc.?

How can we know?!

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:57 pm

Sassy wrote:
sphinx wrote:

No the myth is that it did not happen at all

The reality is it was less common.

I have seen enough children who would have had far better lives if they had been taken from their birth mothers and put up for adoption even allowing for the problems that come with adoption.  To be honest some of the mothers would have had better lives as well.

I'm saying nothing after that, I'm too appalled.

What appals you? That there are children who would have suffered less if removed from their birth mothers and been adopted or that I have spoken of it?

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:59 pm

sphinx wrote:
Sassy wrote:

I'm saying nothing after that, I'm too appalled.

What appals you?  That there are children who would have suffered less if removed from their birth mothers and been adopted or that I have spoken of it?

All of it, but your very first sentence is so wrong it's just off the scale.

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Post by Guest on Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:26 pm

No I am not wrong - I am not talking pregnancies I am talking unmarried mothers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy_and_sexual_health_in_the_United_Kingdom wrote:
Births to teenagers increased during the 1960s and peaked in 1971 at 50.6 per thousand of the population. Since 1971 they have gradually fallen to their lowest level since the mid Fifties. The proportion occurring outside marriage has increased from around one in six in the 1950s to nine in every ten in 2006. Teenage abortion rates are currently at their highest rate since legalisation in 1968. Although the number of conceptions are falling the proportion ending in abortion has increased over the last ten years.


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