If you had a gay child...

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If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

So many subjects on gay issues the now like marriage etc, but I feel the need to ask this question, I'm not really expecting the truth from every single poster on this...

And some may even say they wouldn't know until it happened to them,,,which is so true on certain subjects/predicaments, but if it were me who had a gay son, I know I would accept it...probably after a bit of time, bit I know whatever I would always love him and that his health and happiness would come before anything else...

But I put this question to others now, what in tour heart and mind feel would be more important to you as the parent of a gay child?...

Would you try to 'talk' your child out of being gay and continually fail to acknowledge it?..good luck with that one, would you disown them? Or would you continue to be the normal mad caring loving parents you are?

Be true to yourself here what would you do? Would the love you have for them still remain as it is now?, or would you somehow feel ashamed of your gay child?...

Cheers.

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:12 pm

Joy Division wrote:
sphinx wrote:

Yes it has been said - but the underpinning of that statement is open to legal challenge - a successful legal challenge can mean that vicars/priests are forced - registrars are already forced because they loose their jobs if refusing to do civil partnership ceremonies.



..well if Priests and other religious figures have such a strong belief in God and their bible , then the wage would only come second place Sphinx...they can resign if they truly feel  so strongly.

And you think that is acceptable do you?

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:24 pm

sphinx wrote:
Joy Division wrote:


..well if Priests and other religious figures have such a strong belief in God and their bible , then the wage would only come second place Sphinx...they can resign if they truly feel  so strongly.

And you think that is acceptable do you?


Absolutely...if they don't believe in carrying out their duties then they can't and should not be forced, their love and belief in their bible and God is so strong, then that is understandable.

What would you do if you were employed and your boss acted within the law to add an additional or duty to your job?, you can accept it and get on with it or you can leave...

And that's the beauty Sphinx, it is a free country here so you are free to leave if you don't agree with the additional duty within working hours...in fact it's hardly an additional chore, just opening up to gay marriage as well as heterosexual marriage.

And priests etc are on a salary , so why should they discriminate against gay people?..

Let them walk if they are not happy, or let another priest who is happy to conduct a gay marriage , we need to stop this discrimination and can be doing without prejudiced clergy.

Like everything else, we must move on and stop living the dark ages , just like when the poor had no right to vote or when women were often discriminated against.


Last edited by Joy Division on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:28 pm

...furthermore, there will be plenty other priests/vicars who will happily and freely carry out the conducting of gay marriages.

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:50 pm

JD would you willingly give up your home your job if you were being forced against what you believe , what happened to equality eh ? 

Why should a vicar/Pastor/Priest or whatever they call them in other faiths be bullied out of their job their homes , lol it seems equality is only for gays in your eyes

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:03 pm

VOD(original) wrote:JD would you willingly give up your home your job if you were being forced against what you believe , what happened to equality eh ? 

Why should a vicar/Pastor/Priest or whatever they call them in other faiths be bullied out of their job their homes , lol it seems equality is only for gays in your eyes

Oh no VOD, I'm for equality for everyone.

Nobody is asking priests to give up their home, but if they feel so strongly about gay marriage they can leave ...either way, their not forced you know.

We need to move in from these dark ages and progress has been made elsewhere , but this whole discrimination against gay people must end.

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:08 pm

Joy Division wrote:
VOD(original) wrote:JD would you willingly give up your home your job if you were being forced against what you believe , what happened to equality eh ? 

Why should a vicar/Pastor/Priest or whatever they call them in other faiths be bullied out of their job their homes , lol it seems equality is only for gays in your eyes

Oh no VOD, I'm for equality for everyone.

Nobody is asking priests to give up their home, but if they feel so strongly about gay marriage they can leave ...either way, their not forced you know.

We need to move in from these dark ages and progress has been made elsewhere , but this whole discrimination against gay people must end.





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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:09 pm

Thats not equality JD , you are discriminating people of faith now , equality means everyone you can't select who .

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:21 pm

Joy Division wrote:
sphinx wrote:

And you think that is acceptable do you?


Absolutely...if they don't believe in carrying out their duties then they can't and should not be forced, their love and belief in their bible and God is so strong, then that is understandable.

What would you do if you were employed and your boss acted within the law to add an additional or duty to your job?, you can accept it and get on with it or you can leave...

And that's the beauty Sphinx, it is a free country here so you are free to leave if you don't agree with the additional duty within working hours...in fact it's hardly an additional chore, just opening up to gay marriage as well as heterosexual marriage.

And priests etc are on a salary , so why should they discriminate against gay people?..

Let them walk if they are not happy, or let another priest who is happy to conduct a gay marriage , we need to stop this discrimination and can be doing without prejudiced clergy.

Like everything else, we must move on and stop living the dark ages , just like when the poor had no right to vote or when women were often discriminated against.

So you think it is acceptable that people should be forced to choose between working and what they truly believe?

I mean the law states that is is legal for the morning after pill to be prescribed but if a pharmacist believes it wrong they can refuse to prescribe and not loose their job. Pregnancy termination is legal but medical staff who believe termination is wrong can refuse to be involved and not loose their job.

At the moment religious officers have the same protection (registrars do not) but a legal challenge may change it so that religious officers are given the choice of doing something that they believe it totally wrong or leaving their job with no hope of ever working in that field again.

I take it you would be happy for doctors and nurses to be forced to carry out abortions they are morally opposed to with the choice of do the termination or resign and never work as a doctor/nurse again?

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:24 pm

Joy Division wrote:
VOD(original) wrote:JD would you willingly give up your home your job if you were being forced against what you believe , what happened to equality eh ? 

Why should a vicar/Pastor/Priest or whatever they call them in other faiths be bullied out of their job their homes , lol it seems equality is only for gays in your eyes

Oh no VOD, I'm for equality for everyone.

Nobody is asking priests to give up their home, but if they feel so strongly about gay marriage they can leave ...either way, their not forced you know.

We need to move in from these dark ages and progress has been made elsewhere , but this whole discrimination against gay people must end.

If the law is challenged so that vicars priests rabbis, imans, etc have no choice but to perform marriages that are against their belief their refusal to do so will mean loosing their homes because their homes are tied to their position, loosing their job, and never being able to do that job again because doing that job will mean being forced to do something they believe is wrong.

You want to switch from discrimination against gays to discrimination against those with religious beliefs - both are equally wrong.

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by harvesmom on Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:35 pm

sphinx wrote:
harvesmom wrote:It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I had a gay child, and I wouldn't give a chuff what 'the Church' thought. Its not just gay weddings they oppose, I married a man who had been divorced (for 6 years before I met him) and despite the fact that I had been christened, confirmed and had been a regular churchgoer for 27 years the vicar refused to marry us. Then he thought about it, rang and said if you both attend church for the next 6 months and prove your faith I will consider it. I told him to do one....

I have no time for the C of E, yes they update their decisions, female vicars is an example, but this is only because congregations are dwindling, those church roofs don't pay for themselves. Times are changing, public opinion is changing and its in the churches best interests to keep up.

The ironic thing being a suggestion that is is the updating of decisions that is resulting in the dwindling congregations.  Faiths which are less flexible including Catholics and Islam are far less affected by attendance drop off.

I probably should have added that my wedding was 20 years ago, maybe things have changed by now I don't know. I've been divorced since so maybe the vicar was right lol.

I can only speak from personal experience, if I walked into my local C of E church on Sunday there would be a congregation of around 10 people, all of who would be over the age of 60. 20 years ago it would have been packed. The local Catholic church isn't doing much better either. Something has to change that's for sure.

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Eilzel on Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:10 am

The situation is the same here Harves. The only full churches are those on the outskirts if the city centre, where African communities fill up the small Baptist and Pentacostal churches.

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:09 am

sphinx wrote:
Joy Division wrote:

Oh no VOD, I'm for equality for everyone.

Nobody is asking priests to give up their home, but if they feel so strongly about gay marriage they can leave ...either way, their not forced you know.

We need to move in from these dark ages and progress has been made elsewhere , but this whole discrimination against gay people must end.

If the law is challenged so that vicars priests rabbis, imans, etc have no choice but to perform marriages that are against their belief their refusal to do so will mean loosing their homes because their homes are tied to their position, loosing their job, and never being able to do that job again because doing that job will mean being forced to do something they believe is wrong.

You want to switch from discrimination against gays to discrimination against those with religious beliefs - both are equally wrong.


..there will be other priests and vicar's who are far more open minded and accepting who will line up to take over the jobs should other protests walk out or refuse to perform marriage ceremonies...
I remember recently there was uproar about a Muslim who due to her religion was forbidden to sell alcohol(even though many do) and the view of some on here was to shut up and get on with it or leave...
What is so different about vicars and priests?

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Eilzel on Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:30 am

sphinx wrote:
Joy Division wrote:

Oh no VOD, I'm for equality for everyone.

Nobody is asking priests to give up their home, but if they feel so strongly about gay marriage they can leave ...either way, their not forced you know.

We need to move in from these dark ages and progress has been made elsewhere , but this whole discrimination against gay people must end.

If the law is challenged so that vicars priests rabbis, imans, etc have no choice but to perform marriages that are against their belief their refusal to do so will mean loosing their homes because their homes are tied to their position, loosing their job, and never being able to do that job again because doing that job will mean being forced to do something they believe is wrong.

You want to switch from discrimination against gays to discrimination against those with religious beliefs - both are equally wrong.

There have already been assurances that such challenges will fail. Is this pure paranoid speculation on your part? The law wont change again, nor will it be forced to by the EU (as you UKIPpers like to get all hot and bothered about), since many EU countries don't even allow gay unions to be recognized in law at all.

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:36 am

I'm interested in knowing whether the people arguing in favor of religious freedom supported that Muslim bus driver in the U.K. who wanted to pull the bus over and pray five times daily ...

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:47 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:I'm interested in knowing whether the people arguing in favor of religious freedom supported that Muslim bus driver in the U.K. who wanted to pull the bus over and pray five times daily ...


...a very good question Ben, it seems to suit using religion only as and when it suits some.

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:16 am

OK shop assistant - job description serve goods to customers

Bus Driver - job description drive bus specific routes with specific stops to specific time tables

Vicar/priest/rabbi/iman - job description follow religious texts and rules within such texts to guide congregation in worship of deity.

Serving alcohol is a reasonable expectation of a shop assistant.
Pulling over to pray 5 times a day is unreasonable in a bus driver

For many religious ministers marriage is sacrosanct and is only between man and woman and same sex marriage is against the very texts they have learned from and believe in.

I am not talking about the 18 year old entering seminary who can meditate on their beliefs and look at changing career I am talking about the 45 year old minister who has a 25 year solid career behind him who is being asked to do something that is the very opposite of what his job should be.

To that individual (it seems nobody gets that I am coming from the point of the view of individuals here) what is being asked is tantamount to handing a doctor a box of syringes containing deadly poison and telling them to go and inject their every patient with them.

Becoming a religious minister is not a simple case of filling out an application form (shop assistant) or having an extra driving licence (my ex held his bus licence and it is not a massive undertaking). It is a huge commitment that will include degree level study, as well as very personal assessment, and a deep level of true belief. I think some people need to stop and think exactly what the phrase "its not a job its a calling" mean.

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Eilzel on Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:32 am

sphinx wrote:OK shop assistant - job description serve goods to customers

Bus Driver - job description drive bus specific routes with specific stops to specific time tables

Vicar/priest/rabbi/iman - job description follow religious texts and rules within such texts to guide congregation in worship of deity.

Serving alcohol is a reasonable expectation of a shop assistant.
Pulling over to pray 5 times a day is unreasonable in a bus driver

For many religious ministers marriage is sacrosanct and is only between man and woman and same sex marriage is against the very texts they have learned from and believe in.

I am not talking about the 18 year old entering seminary who can meditate on their beliefs and look at changing career I am talking about the 45 year old minister who has a 25 year solid career behind him who is being asked to do something that is the very opposite of what his job should be.

To that individual (it seems nobody gets that I am coming from the point of the view of individuals here) what is being asked is tantamount to handing a doctor a box of syringes containing deadly poison and telling them to go and inject their every patient with them.

Becoming a religious minister is not a simple case of filling out an application form (shop assistant) or having an extra driving licence (my ex held his bus licence and it is not a massive undertaking).  It is a huge commitment that will include degree level study, as well as very personal assessment, and a deep level of true belief.  I think some people need to stop and think exactly what the phrase "its not a job its a calling" mean.

2 points.

1. Why are you talking about something that isn't even happening?

2. What if (hypothetical question) a new Archbishop of Canterbury or Pope (or head of whatever religion you wish), in the future, decrees same-sex marriage ok; and believe it their mandate from God to see this become a reality in church?

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:35 am

Eilzel wrote:
sphinx wrote:OK shop assistant - job description serve goods to customers

Bus Driver - job description drive bus specific routes with specific stops to specific time tables

Vicar/priest/rabbi/iman - job description follow religious texts and rules within such texts to guide congregation in worship of deity.

Serving alcohol is a reasonable expectation of a shop assistant.
Pulling over to pray 5 times a day is unreasonable in a bus driver

For many religious ministers marriage is sacrosanct and is only between man and woman and same sex marriage is against the very texts they have learned from and believe in.

I am not talking about the 18 year old entering seminary who can meditate on their beliefs and look at changing career I am talking about the 45 year old minister who has a 25 year solid career behind him who is being asked to do something that is the very opposite of what his job should be.

To that individual (it seems nobody gets that I am coming from the point of the view of individuals here) what is being asked is tantamount to handing a doctor a box of syringes containing deadly poison and telling them to go and inject their every patient with them.

Becoming a religious minister is not a simple case of filling out an application form (shop assistant) or having an extra driving licence (my ex held his bus licence and it is not a massive undertaking).  It is a huge commitment that will include degree level study, as well as very personal assessment, and a deep level of true belief.  I think some people need to stop and think exactly what the phrase "its not a job its a calling" mean.

2 points.

1. Why are you talking about something that isn't even happening?

2. What if (hypothetical question) a new Archbishop of Canterbury or Pope (or head of whatever religion you wish), in the future, decrees same-sex marriage ok; and believe it their mandate from God to see this become a reality in church?

Point 1 - we will see.

Point 2 - that is a problem generated within the faith and is therefore up to them to sort out. If a legal challenge results in religious establishments being forced it is a problem generated outside the faith and is therefore beyond them to sort out.

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Eilzel on Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:40 am

sphinx wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

2 points.

1. Why are you talking about something that isn't even happening?

2. What if (hypothetical question) a new Archbishop of Canterbury or Pope (or head of whatever religion you wish), in the future, decrees same-sex marriage ok; and believe it their mandate from God to see this become a reality in church?

Point 1 - we will see.

Point 2 - that is a problem generated within the faith and is therefore up to them to sort out.  If a legal challenge results in religious establishments being forced it is a problem generated outside the faith and is therefore beyond them to sort out.

We will indeed see. But if a challenge was raised it wouldn't get much support outside any given religious institution. And as I say the EU couldn't do anything since many EU states currently don't recognize same-sex unions at all.

I raised point 2 because the trouble would then be an internal problem for a given sect; and what would your argument be then- if let's say the CofE (and I use it as the most familiar church, this can count for any); changed its policy; that would doubtless leave some within the church, to use your term 'discriminated against'. But if it is a change within the church- would you oppose this?

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:44 am

Eilzel wrote:
sphinx wrote:

Point 1 - we will see.

Point 2 - that is a problem generated within the faith and is therefore up to them to sort out.  If a legal challenge results in religious establishments being forced it is a problem generated outside the faith and is therefore beyond them to sort out.

We will indeed see. But if a challenge was raised it wouldn't get much support outside any given religious institution. And as I say the EU couldn't do anything since many EU states currently don't recognize same-sex unions at all.

I raised point 2 because the trouble would then be an internal problem for a given sect; and what would your argument be then- if let's say the CofE (and I use it as the most familiar church, this can count for any); changed its policy; that would doubtless leave some within the church, to use your term 'discriminated against'. But if it is a change within the church- would you oppose this?

Anything within a sect would be none of my business - it is my business when my society seeks to enforce change from the outside.

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Eilzel on Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:52 am

sphinx wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

We will indeed see. But if a challenge was raised it wouldn't get much support outside any given religious institution. And as I say the EU couldn't do anything since many EU states currently don't recognize same-sex unions at all.

I raised point 2 because the trouble would then be an internal problem for a given sect; and what would your argument be then- if let's say the CofE (and I use it as the most familiar church, this can count for any); changed its policy; that would doubtless leave some within the church, to use your term 'discriminated against'. But if it is a change within the church- would you oppose this?

Anything within a sect would be none of my business - it is my business when my society seeks to enforce change from the outside.

So you don't mind the church moving forward by itself and leaving others behind; by which I mean you don't mind the church hierarchy imposing uncomfortable views on its conservative congregation members- you just don't want society in general to do the same. I understand that, I even agree with that  Smile 

Aside from that you seem to be expressing a lot of concern about something very unlikely (like 99% unlikely) to even happen- UKIP fearmongering?

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Re: If you had a gay child...

Post by Guest on Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:16 am

Eilzel wrote:
sphinx wrote:

Anything within a sect would be none of my business - it is my business when my society seeks to enforce change from the outside.

So you don't mind the church moving forward by itself and leaving others behind; by which I mean you don't mind the church hierarchy imposing uncomfortable views on its conservative congregation members- you just don't want society in general to do the same. I understand that, I even agree with that  Smile 

Aside from that you seem to be expressing a lot of concern about something very unlikely (like 99% unlikely) to even happen- UKIP fearmongering?

Thing is change from within a congregation is a very different animal - it tends to come from the majority of the congregation, and die hards can split and seek another church or establish their own (how many different branches of Christianity are there?)

A change from outside is oblivious of Congregational opinion and more to the point there is no way for the die hards to find solace - all other churches will be bound by the same rules and the die hards cannot set up their own breakaway church because it would also be bound by the very thing they are wanting to object to.

As for the likeliness - you have your opinion and I have mine. I have seen detailed legal breakdown of both why it is possible and why it is not possible and being the cynic I am I suspect that someone somewhere will try it out - just because it is there.

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