Quack Doctor who claimed alkali kills cancer arrested

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Post by Guest on Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

First topic message reminder :

Cancer quack Robert O. Young is arrested and arraigned.

One of the most egregiously practicing non-physicians who claim to be able to cure cancer that I’ve ever encountered was arrested—yes, arrested!—and arraigned on criminal charges. I’m referring to “Dr. Alkaline” himself, he of the pH Miracle Living program and his Articles of Health blog, “Dr.” Robert O. Young.

Itnow strikes me as an excellent time to revisit, review, and discuss what sorts of pseudoscience and quackery Young advocates to treat cancer and—as is the case with so many dubious practitioners—multiple other serious diseases, such as lupus, type I diabetes (you read that right, not type II diabetes), metastatic prostate cancer, and cancer in general. (Not surprisingly, Young is also quite antivaccine, publishing anecdotes from parents who believe their child is “vaccine damaged” and appeals to support antivaccine groups like the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC).) Let’s take a look at what happened last week and why, given the law in California, I’m not sure that this case will be the slam dunk we’d all like it to be. The law in California could easily make it a difficult task for the prosecutor to secure a conviction, much less a 15 year sentence. First, however, for those who are not familiar with Dr. Young, it’s important to provide a little primer on who he is, what he does, and why I am so outraged that he’s been allowed to continue to practice for more than 20 years.

The disturbing saga of “Dr.” Robert O. Young

Robert O. Young is pretty famous as far as “alternative medicine” practitioners go, spawning acolytes like Errol Denton who’s been in a spot of similar legal trouble lately, who trained under Young and remains an admirer. Although I had heard of Young before and written about him more in an amusing than outraged manner, I really first became aware of Young through the case of a woman with breast cancer named Kim Tinkham. Not entirely coincidentally, Tinkham briefly became famous back in 2008 after having appeared on Oprah Winfrey’s daytime talk show in the context of her belief in The Secret, that mystical, magical, childish belief system that the universe will bring you what you want if you only want it badly enough. It’s a system of belief that goes far beyond the reasonable concept that people who want something badly enough will be more likely to try to obtain it and thus more likely to get it and into the realm of wish fulfillment, where “wishing makes it so,” a concept that is the central dogma of alternative medicine. At the time, she had recently been diagnosed with breast cancer, described as stage III, and was being urged to undergo surgery. She refused. In 2007, Tinkham appeared on The Oprah Winfrey Show.

In this interview, Kim Tinkham attributes her decision to “heal herself” to The Secret. Oprah, to her credit, was horrified and even called Tinkham “irresponsible” for not taking advantage of modern medicine. It turns out that the “alternative” practitioner she somehow found was Robert O. Young. It also unfortunately turns out that she died of her disease three years ago, losing her battle with breast cancer. In the interim, however, she did testimonials for Young, even going so far as to agree to appear in an hour-long interview with him.

Being a cancer surgeon and researcher, naturally I tend to write about cancer a lot more than other areas of medicine and science. It’s what I know best.  Over the weekend I heard some truly awesome news. One of the most egregiously practicing non-physicians who claim to be able to cure cancer that I’ve ever encountered was arrested—yes, arrested!—and arraigned on criminal charges. I’m referring to “Dr. Alkaline” himself, he of the pH Miracle Living program and his Articles of Health blog, “Dr.” Robert O. Young.

I’ve mentioned Robert O. Young from time to time on this blog, but it’s been at least a couple of years since I’ve discussed him other than in passing. Consequently, now strikes me as an excellent time to revisit, review, and discuss what sorts of pseudoscience and quackery Young advocates to treat cancer and—as is the case with so many dubious practitioners—multiple other serious diseases, such as lupus, type I diabetes (you read that right, not type II diabetes), metastatic prostate cancer, and cancer in general. (Not surprisingly, Young is also quite antivaccine, publishing anecdotes from parents who believe their child is “vaccine damaged” and appeals to support antivaccine groups like the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC).) Let’s take a look at what happened last week and why, given the law in California, I’m not sure that this case will be the slam dunk we’d all like it to be. The law in California could easily make it a difficult task for the prosecutor to secure a conviction, much less a 15 year sentence. First, however, for those who are not familiar with Dr. Young, it’s important to provide a little primer on who he is, what he does, and why I am so outraged that he’s been allowed to continue to practice for more than 20 years.

The disturbing saga of “Dr.” Robert O. Young

Robert O. Young is pretty famous as far as “alternative medicine” practitioners go, spawning acolytes like Errol Denton who’s been in a spot of similar legal trouble lately, who trained under Young and remains an admirer. Although I had heard of Young before and written about him more in an amusing than outraged manner, I really first became aware of Young through the case of a woman with breast cancer named Kim Tinkham. Not entirely coincidentally, Tinkham briefly became famous back in 2008 after having appeared on Oprah Winfrey’s daytime talk show in the context of her belief in The Secret, that mystical, magical, childish belief system that the universe will bring you what you want if you only want it badly enough. It’s a system of belief that goes far beyond the reasonable concept that people who want something badly enough will be more likely to try to obtain it and thus more likely to get it and into the realm of wish fulfillment, where “wishing makes it so,” a concept that is the central dogma of alternative medicine. At the time, she had recently been diagnosed with breast cancer, described as stage III, and was being urged to undergo surgery. She refused. In 2007, Tinkham appeared on The Oprah Winfrey Show:

In this interview, Kim Tinkham attributes her decision to “heal herself” to The Secret. Oprah, to her credit, was horrified and even called Tinkham “irresponsible” for not taking advantage of modern medicine. It turns out that the “alternative” practitioner she somehow found was Robert O. Young. It also unfortunately turns out that she died of her disease three years ago, losing her battle with breast cancer. In the interim, however, she did testimonials for Young, even going so far as to agree to appear in an hour-long interview with him (now thrown down the memory hole, although I captured a copy of all six ten-minute segments of it for posterity and only wish I could put them back up on YouTube without a DMCA takedown notice and even potentially copyright charge). In any case, Tinkham is only one of Young’s victims, and she was fortunate enough to have survived longer than I would have guessed initially.

So who is “Dr.” Robert O. Young? Let’s take a look at his claimed credentials.

As Dr. Stephen Barrett notes, two of Young’s doctoral degrees were received from diploma mills and that Robert Bradford, who was convicted of laetrile smuggling in the 1970s didn’t, even have a college degree. Also, Clayton College of Natural Health was a nonaccredited correspondence school that taught a panoply of quackery. Not long after the state of Alabama began requiring accreditation for license renewal, the Clayton College of Natural Health closed in 2010. As Dr. Barrett drolly notes, the Clayton College of Natural Health did (and does) serve one good purpose, “Its credentials are a reliable sign of someone not to consult for advice.” No kidding. And, even though he claims to have an ND degree, the school from which he obtained it was not accredited, which means that Young’s ND degree is even more worthless than an ND from an “accredited” college of naturopathic medicine, as hard as to believe that’s possible. As The Eleventh Doctor would say, “Basically… run.”

But what about cancer? This is what Young claims to be able to treat is most commonly associated with. I think it’s helpful to read this particular manifesto he wrote a few years ago that sums up his view of cancer, What Is The Cause of Cancer? Is There A Cure? Then read my deconstruction from nearly seven years ago. The sheer level of quackery encompassed in Young’s ideas hurts my neurons. To him, cancer is not a mass of cells that have somehow freed themselves from the normal homeostatic controls that keep human cells differentiated, happy, and not growing out of control. To young, cancer is a “poisonous acidic liquid. But he’s not even consistent, because elsewhere he refers to cancer as “cell that has been spoiled or poisoned by metabolic or gastrointestinal acids” and the tumor mass as “body’s protective mechanism to encapsulate spoiled or poisoned cells from excess acid that has not been properly eliminated through urination, perspiration, defecation or respiration” and the “body’s solution to protect healthy cells and tissues.” These concepts, which aren’t even self-consistent in many areas, are so wrong on so many levels that it would take enormous amounts of verbiage to deconstruct them again.

Young is a perfect example of one aspect of quacks that distinguishes them from practitioners of science-based medicine. Science-based medicine recognizes the complexity of disease; it delves into that complexity, trying to make sense out of it and use that knowledge to develop better treatments for disease. Quacks choose to make sense of disease another way, and that way would be insulting to disease, if disease had feelings, in that they often tend to boil all disease down to one cause or a handful of tightly related causes. I’ve often wondered why. It’s more than just the fact that they don’t understand the science behind disease. After all, Young appears to understand acid-base science, but he only understands it at a very superficial level, demonstrating once again that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. What I end up wondering again and again is whether Young actually believes this nonsense. I suppose that on one level it doesn’t really matter. It continues to harm patients and it needs to be stopped.

Here are some key observations that came immediately to mind. First, Robert O. Young appears to be filthy rich from his business endeavors, so much so that he’s considered a flight risk because of his wealth and the numerous facilities around the world where he promotes his program. It’s mentioned elsewhere in the story that one patient paid $120,000 for treatments at his ranch. In the news report, it states that people seeking “treatment” at Young’s ranch pay up to $2,495 a night to stay there, with an image superimposed of a a price list ranging from $1,295 to $2,495 a night. There are top flight hotels in big cities that don’t charge that much for their luxury suites.

According to the Medical Board of California, here’s how the law ultimately caught up with “Dr.” Young:

   The Medical Board worked in conjunction with the San Diego District Attorney’s Office after an undercover investigator infiltrated Young’s avocado ranch where he was illegally treating patients. Both the Medical Board’s investigator and an investigator from the San Diego District Attorney’s Office were diagnosed with diseases and offered very pricy treatments. Many of Young’s patients were actually chronically ill and spent sums of up to $50,000 for Young’s treatment.

   Young is the author of the “pH Miracle,” a diet designed to “alkalinize the body. However, Young took it a step too far when he went beyond advocating dietary changes and began using intravenous treatments on patients housed at his avocado ranch in Valley Center.

So, basically, the law did an undercover sting operation and caught Young making bogus diagnoses and offering treatments for them. The sad thing to me, however, is the strong implication that if Young had advocated only dietary changes to treat cancer, he wouldn’t have gotten in trouble even though there is no evidence that dietary changes can cure any cancer. That is the state the law regulating medical practice, not just in California, but in many states.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/01/27/cancer-quack-robert-o-young-is-arrested-and-arraigned-but-will-he-be-convicted/

Phrased it as it was very long.   I hope this man is put away for a very long time.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:54 am

PhilDidge wrote:
eddie wrote:

I don't know about anything  else,  but my dad died of the chemo.
Even his oncologist told us that.


As much as I adore you Eddie please do not lie, an oncologist could not know that chemo killed your father, he could only guess, as only an autopsy could say what killed him, I mean no disrespect but please do not bullshit, he could not know what killed your father

every time chemo is suggested it is a guess a gamble on an already sick persons life , if you adore eddie you wouldn't call her a liar, she is not a liar cancer is a sensitive subject especially when it is one of your parents . You do not know what was said to eddie about her dad , the only one talking bullshit is you here .

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:18 am

VOD(original) wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


As much as I adore you Eddie please do not lie, an oncologist could not know that chemo killed your father, he could only guess, as only an autopsy could say what killed him, I mean no disrespect but please do not bullshit, he could not know what killed your father

every time chemo is suggested it is a guess a gamble on an already sick persons life , if you adore eddie you wouldn't call her a liar, she is not a liar cancer is a sensitive subject especially when it is one of your parents . You do not know what was said to eddie about her dad , the only one talking bullshit is you here .

Actually true friends do not shy away from speaking their minds to each other and for someone who claims to have me on ignore you obviously keep lying yourself.
Yes cancer is a sensitive subject which you and your husband do not seem to realise how much so it is with his utterly stupid advice on the subject.
So yes again I do know what was said, because again an oncologist would not say that it would be unprofessional.

So take your fake bullshit and swivel it, this is why so many get angry because of you and your husbands stupidity on medical treatment for cancer as countless times you have been proven to be wrong and advise dangerous advice to people.

So I will say what I like, if Eddie has issue with that she will take it up with me, not some deranged born again freak

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:29 am

PhilDidge wrote:
VOD(original) wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


As much as I adore you Eddie please do not lie, an oncologist could not know that chemo killed your father, he could only guess, as only an autopsy could say what killed him, I mean no disrespect but please do not bullshit, he could not know what killed your father

every time chemo is suggested it is a guess a gamble on an already sick persons life , if you adore eddie you wouldn't call her a liar, she is not a liar cancer is a sensitive subject especially when it is one of your parents . You do not know what was said to eddie about her dad , the only one talking bullshit is you here .

Actually true friends do not shy away from speaking their minds to each other and for someone who claims to have me on ignore you obviously keep lying yourself.
Yes cancer is a sensitive subject which you and your husband do not seem to realise how much so it is with his utterly stupid advice on the subject.
So yes again I do know what was said, because again an oncologist would not say that it would be unprofessional.

So take your fake bullshit and swivel it, this is why so many get angry because of you and your husbands stupidity on medical treatment for cancer as countless times you have been proven to be wrong and advise dangerous advice to people.

So I will say what I like, if Eddie has issue with that she will take it up with me, not some deranged born again freak  

That's what friends are for, a true friend will speak up when they think you're in the wrong. We'd all be fucked if our friends just told us what we want to hear in deference to our delicate little feelings.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:26 am

PhilDidge wrote:
eddie wrote:

I don't know about anything  else,  but my dad died of the chemo.
Even his oncologist told us that.


As much as I adore you Eddie please do not lie, an oncologist could not know that chemo killed your father, he could only guess, as only an autopsy could say what killed him, I mean no disrespect but please do not bullshit, he could not know what killed your father

so oncologist are only telling the truth when they say what you want them..lol

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:27 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Actually true friends do not shy away from speaking their minds to each other and for someone who claims to have me on ignore you obviously keep lying yourself.
Yes cancer is a sensitive subject which you and your husband do not seem to realise how much so it is with his utterly stupid advice on the subject.
So yes again I do know what was said, because again an oncologist would not say that it would be unprofessional.

So take your fake bullshit and swivel it, this is why so many get angry because of you and your husbands stupidity on medical treatment for cancer as countless times you have been proven to be wrong and advise dangerous advice to people.

So I will say what I like, if Eddie has issue with that she will take it up with me, not some deranged born again freak  

That's what friends are for, a true friend will speak up when they think you're in the wrong. We'd all be fucked if our friends just told us what we want to hear in deference to our delicate little feelings.

but your all banging on about how cruel it is to debate chemo because people are suffering cancer , and keep trying to prove chemo cures when it does not , it puts cancer into remission that is not a cure if it were cured it would cease to exist not go into remission .

phildidge - insult after insult calling me a born again freak , you don't debate you get angry it shows in your replies . You seem like a spoiled child everyone has to see it your way or you spit your dummy out and throw your toys out of the pram , its about time you grew up , you think you know everything but you know nothing you copy and paste things from wiki and expect us to believe you have knowledge when you have about as much knowledge as a dead flea  lol! 

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:28 am

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


As much as I adore you Eddie please do not lie, an oncologist could not know that chemo killed your father, he could only guess, as only an autopsy could say what killed him, I mean no disrespect but please do not bullshit, he could not know what killed your father

so oncologist are only telling the truth when they say what you want them to say..lol

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:29 am

VOD(original) wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

That's what friends are for, a true friend will speak up when they think you're in the wrong. We'd all be fucked if our friends just told us what we want to hear in deference to our delicate little feelings.

but your all banging on about how cruel it is to debate chemo because people are suffering cancer , and keep trying to prove chemo cures when it does not , it puts cancer into remission that is not a cure if it were cured it would cease to exist not go into remission .

phildidge - insult after insult calling me a born again freak , you don't debate you get angry it shows in your replies . You seem like a spoiled child everyone has to see it your way or you spit your dummy out and throw your toys out of the pram , its about time you grew up , you think you know everything but you know nothing you copy and paste things from wiki and expect us to believe you have knowledge when you have about as much knowledge as a dead flea  lol! 


lol...don't forget you are talking to herr dick..tator...who would force treatment on to people and ignore information on how people have lived longer without treatment.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:40 am

VOD(original) wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

That's what friends are for, a true friend will speak up when they think you're in the wrong. We'd all be fucked if our friends just told us what we want to hear in deference to our delicate little feelings.

but your all banging on about how cruel it is to debate chemo because people are suffering cancer , and keep trying to prove chemo cures when it does not , it puts cancer into remission that is not a cure if it were cured it would cease to exist not go into remission .

phildidge - insult after insult calling me a born again freak , you don't debate you get angry it shows in your replies . You seem like a spoiled child everyone has to see it your way or you spit your dummy out and throw your toys out of the pram , its about time you grew up , you think you know everything but you know nothing you copy and paste things from wiki and expect us to believe you have knowledge when you have about as much knowledge as a dead flea  lol! 


No again you lie, that is the only insult i have given to you and you are a born again freak, you butted your nose in here and got your fingers burnt again, clearly not understanding friendships either. I do not think I know everything, but of the things I do know well I present well, which is a big difference and the only two I see moaning most of the time, is you and your husband. The fact is if you think the pair of you can debate when you deny everything

So not on ignore after all then, telling porkies again

Funny how you think I have little knowledge and yet am able to spank your pants in a debate ha ha ha ha

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:41 am

PhilDidge wrote:
VOD(original) wrote:

but your all banging on about how cruel it is to debate chemo because people are suffering cancer , and keep trying to prove chemo cures when it does not , it puts cancer into remission that is not a cure if it were cured it would cease to exist not go into remission .

phildidge - insult after insult calling me a born again freak , you don't debate you get angry it shows in your replies . You seem like a spoiled child everyone has to see it your way or you spit your dummy out and throw your toys out of the pram , its about time you grew up , you think you know everything but you know nothing you copy and paste things from wiki and expect us to believe you have knowledge when you have about as much knowledge as a dead flea  lol! 


No again you lie, that is the only insult and you are a born again freak, you butted your nose in here and got your fingers burnt again, clearly not understanding friendships either. I do not think I know everything, but of the things I do know well I present well, which is a big difference and the only two I see moaning most of the time, is you and your husband. The fact is if you think the pair of you can debate when you deny everything

So not on ignore after all then, telling porkies again

lol at herr dick...tator, forced anyone to take poison lately, or is it your morning off.... Smile 

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:42 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Actually true friends do not shy away from speaking their minds to each other and for someone who claims to have me on ignore you obviously keep lying yourself.
Yes cancer is a sensitive subject which you and your husband do not seem to realise how much so it is with his utterly stupid advice on the subject.
So yes again I do know what was said, because again an oncologist would not say that it would be unprofessional.

So take your fake bullshit and swivel it, this is why so many get angry because of you and your husbands stupidity on medical treatment for cancer as countless times you have been proven to be wrong and advise dangerous advice to people.

So I will say what I like, if Eddie has issue with that she will take it up with me, not some deranged born again freak  

That's what friends are for, a true friend will speak up when they think you're in the wrong. We'd all be fucked if our friends just told us what we want to hear in deference to our delicate little feelings.


Hi Ben

Any logical or sensible person would know this, funny how others do not showing what poor freinds they must make

 lol! 

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:43 am

PhilDidge wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

That's what friends are for, a true friend will speak up when they think you're in the wrong. We'd all be fucked if our friends just told us what we want to hear in deference to our delicate little feelings.


Hi Ben

Any logical or sensible person would know this, funny how others do not showing what poor freinds they must make

 lol! 

just wondering would a sensible friend force his friend to take poison...

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:47 am

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Hi Ben

Any logical or sensible person would know this, funny how others do not showing what poor freinds they must make

 lol! 

just wondering would a sensible friend force his friend to take poison...


No idea, chemo is not a poison, but a treatment for many people which can work and is the best effective method at the moment of which any intelligent person would know, but you would allow them to do the following with your bad advice:



Dying from untreated cancer can mean unrelenting pain that leaves you the choice of being drugged up with narcotics or being in agony.

Dying from untreated cancer can mean unrelenting vomiting from a bowel obstruction. It can mean having a nasogastric tube to drain your digestive juices and prevent you from throwing up. Alternatively, it can mean having to have a tube sticking out of your stomach to drain its fluids.

Dying from untreated cancer can mean bleeding because you don’t have enough platelets to clot. The bleeding can come in many forms. It can be bleeding into the brain, in essence a hemorrhagic stroke. It can mean bleeding from the rectum or vomiting blood incessantly. And, because so many transfusions are all too often necessary, immune reactions can chew up new platelets as fast as they’re infused. Yes, paradoxically, even when a cancer patient’s immune system is suppressed in late stage cancer, frequently it does work against the one thing you don’t want it to: Transfusions of blood products.

Dying from untreated cancer can mean horrific cachexia. Think Nazi concentration camp survivor. think starving Africans. Think famine. Think having cheeks so sunken that your face looks like the skull underlying it.

Dying from untreated cancer can mean your lungs progressively filling with fluid from tumor infiltration. Think choking on your own secretions. Think a progressive shortness of breath. Think an unrelenting feeling of suffocation but with no possibility of relief ever.

Dying from cancer can mean having your belly fill with ascites fluid due to a liver chock full of tumor.

Dying from cancer can mean a progressive decline in mental function due to brain metastases.

Dying from cancer can mean so many other horrific things happening to you that they are way to numerous to include a comprehensive list in a blog post, even a post by a blogger as regularly logorrheic as I am.

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Post by eddie on Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:22 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
eddie wrote:

I don't know about anything  else,  but my dad died of the chemo.
Even his oncologist told us that.


As much as I adore you Eddie please do not lie, an oncologist could not know that chemo killed your father, he could only guess, as only an autopsy could say what killed him, I mean no disrespect but please do not bullshit, he could not know what killed your father

Didge, after my dad died, myself and my mum went in to see the oncologist, a lady.
We asked her what my dad died of, exactly.
She told us his organs had closed down and that his body couldn't handle the chemotherapy.
We said to her "But his latest scan showed the chemo was killing off the cancer cells! The tumours were shrinking!"
The doctor said that, unfortunately, as well as chemo killing off cancerous cells it also kills off healthy cells.
I said to her "So the chemo, effectively, killed him then?"
She answered "Effectively, yes"

I asked why the hell had he been given such harsh doses? And she she told me they didn't always know and each person and cancer was different - what works for one doesn't always work for another.

Hence my reason for repeatedly saying that doctors don't always know what they're doing, they wing it, at times.

Oh and not to mention that certain tablets they gave him clashed terribly with his high-blood pressure  tablets and caused him to collapse due to lack of potassium!
An "error" made by a doctor which caused him to be hospitalised so they could treat the potassium levels and whereby he caught the virus C Dif.

So please, don't call me a fucking liar didge just because it doesn't tally with your own set-in-stone opinions.
Sometimes you are WRONG. Hard for you to comprehend that, isn't it?


Last edited by eddie on Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:26 pm

eddie wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


As much as I adore you Eddie please do not lie, an oncologist could not know that chemo killed your father, he could only guess, as only an autopsy could say what killed him, I mean no disrespect but please do not bullshit, he could not know what killed your father

Didge, after my dad died, myself and my mum went in to see the oncologist, a lady.
We asked her what my dad died of, exactly.
She told us his organs had closed down and that his body couldn't handle the chemotherapy.
We said to her "But his latest scan showed the chemo was killing off the cancer cells! The tumours were shrinking!"
The doctor said that, unfortunately, as well as chemo killing off cancerous cells it also kills off healthy cells.
I said to her "So the chemo, effectively, killed him then?"
She answered "Effectively, yes"

I asked why the hell had he been given such harsh doses? And she she told me they didn't always know and each person and cancer was different - what works for one doesn't always work for another.

Hence my reason for repeatedly saying that doctors don't always know what they're doing, they wing it, at times.

Oh and not to mention that certain tablets they gave him clashed terribly with his high-blood pressure  tablets and caused him to collapse due to lack of potassium!
An "error" made by a doctor which caused him to be hospitalised so they could treat the potassium levels and whereby he caught the virus C Dif.

So please, don't call me a fucking liar didge just because it doesn't tally with your own set-in-stone opinions.
Sometimes you are WRONG. Hard for you to comprehend that, isn't it?


I feel for you eddie...nothing you could have done...we do the best we can at the time with the information we have...

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Post by eddie on Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:28 pm

Thanks HF.
I dislike being called a liar.
Jesus! Like I'd lie about something like that??!!!

_________________
WHEN YOU TALK, YOU ARE ONLY REPEATING WHAT YOU ALREADY KNOW.
BUT IF YOU LISTEN, YOU MAY LEARN SOMETHING NEW.

~ Dalai Lama
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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:31 pm

eddie wrote:Thanks HF.
I dislike being called a liar.
Jesus! Like I'd lie about something like that??!!!

no worries Eddie, ignore didge he has his agenda... Smile 

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:31 pm

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:
eddie wrote:

Didge, after my dad died, myself and my mum went in to see the oncologist, a lady.
We asked her what my dad died of, exactly.
She told us his organs had closed down and that his body couldn't handle the chemotherapy.
We said to her "But his latest scan showed the chemo was killing off the cancer cells! The tumours were shrinking!"
The doctor said that, unfortunately, as well as chemo killing off cancerous cells it also kills off healthy cells.
I said to her "So the chemo, effectively, killed him then?"
She answered "Effectively, yes"

I asked why the hell had he been given such harsh doses? And she she told me they didn't always know and each person and cancer was different - what works for one doesn't always work for another.

Hence my reason for repeatedly saying that doctors don't always know what they're doing, they wing it, at times.

Oh and not to mention that certain tablets they gave him clashed terribly with his high-blood pressure  tablets and caused him to collapse due to lack of potassium!
An "error" made by a doctor which caused him to be hospitalised so they could treat the potassium levels and whereby he caught the virus C Dif.

So please, don't call me a fucking liar didge just because it doesn't tally with your own set-in-stone opinions.
Sometimes you are WRONG. Hard for you to comprehend that, isn't it?


I feel for you eddie...nothing you could have done...we do the best we can at the time with the information we have...
yes we do

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:32 pm

eddie wrote:Thanks HF.
I dislike being called a liar.
Jesus! Like I'd lie about something like that??!!!

you wouldn't lie x

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Post by eddie on Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:34 pm

VOD(original) wrote:
eddie wrote:Thanks HF.
I dislike being called a liar.
Jesus! Like I'd lie about something like that??!!!

you wouldn't lie x

I never think people are lying Vod, I always assume they are posting the truth.

Thanks for your support x

_________________
WHEN YOU TALK, YOU ARE ONLY REPEATING WHAT YOU ALREADY KNOW.
BUT IF YOU LISTEN, YOU MAY LEARN SOMETHING NEW.

~ Dalai Lama
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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:39 pm

eddie wrote:
VOD(original) wrote:

you wouldn't lie x

I never think people are lying Vod, I always assume they are posting the truth.

Thanks for your support x

I know that's how i am to eddie your welcome x

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Post by Stephenmarra on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:04 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:

That's what friends are for, a true friend will speak up when they think you're in the wrong. We'd all be fucked if our friends just told us what we want to hear in deference to our delicate little feelings.


Hi Ben

Any logical or sensible person would know this, funny how others do not showing what poor freinds they must make

 lol! 

Sorry Didge, if  any friend of mine  that  was in the habit of calling me a liar would very much be an ex friend.
An asshole, an ignorant tw** or stupid c*** is all good and possibly sound advice from a friend but liar that's a no-no.
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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:09 pm

I don't think for one instant Eddie lied, who would lie about their father's death!!!!


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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:23 pm

And if your friend is that special to you the last thing you do is call her/him a liar on a public forum .

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:26 pm

eddie wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


As much as I adore you Eddie please do not lie, an oncologist could not know that chemo killed your father, he could only guess, as only an autopsy could say what killed him, I mean no disrespect but please do not bullshit, he could not know what killed your father

Didge, after my dad died, myself and my mum went in to see the oncologist, a lady.
We asked her what my dad died of, exactly.
She told us his organs had closed down and that his body couldn't handle the chemotherapy.
We said to her "But his latest scan showed the chemo was killing off the cancer cells! The tumours were shrinking!"
The doctor said that, unfortunately, as well as chemo killing off cancerous cells it also kills off healthy cells.
I said to her "So the chemo, effectively, killed him then?"
She answered "Effectively, yes"

I asked why the hell had he been given such harsh doses? And she she told me they didn't always know and each person and cancer was different - what works for one doesn't always work for another.

Hence my reason for repeatedly saying that doctors don't always know what they're doing, they wing it, at times.

Oh and not to mention that certain tablets they gave him clashed terribly with his high-blood pressure  tablets and caused him to collapse due to lack of potassium!
An "error" made by a doctor which caused him to be hospitalised so they could treat the potassium levels and whereby he caught the virus C Dif.

So please, don't call me a fucking liar didge just because it doesn't tally with your own set-in-stone opinions.
Sometimes you are WRONG. Hard for you to comprehend that, isn't it?

Sorry Bullshit, the Chemo will weaken his immune system, that is a reality, but to say it is killing him is medically wrong on so many levels , so I am afraid to me you are a liar on this, because there is no way an oncologist would say he died of chemo, because he would of died because of complications due to the chemo.
So no I will not accept your claim on any level, no matter how sensitive this is

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:28 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
eddie wrote:

Didge, after my dad died, myself and my mum went in to see the oncologist, a lady.
We asked her what my dad died of, exactly.
She told us his organs had closed down and that his body couldn't handle the chemotherapy.
We said to her "But his latest scan showed the chemo was killing off the cancer cells! The tumours were shrinking!"
The doctor said that, unfortunately, as well as chemo killing off cancerous cells it also kills off healthy cells.
I said to her "So the chemo, effectively, killed him then?"
She answered "Effectively, yes"

I asked why the hell had he been given such harsh doses? And she she told me they didn't always know and each person and cancer was different - what works for one doesn't always work for another.

Hence my reason for repeatedly saying that doctors don't always know what they're doing, they wing it, at times.

Oh and not to mention that certain tablets they gave him clashed terribly with his high-blood pressure  tablets and caused him to collapse due to lack of potassium!
An "error" made by a doctor which caused him to be hospitalised so they could treat the potassium levels and whereby he caught the virus C Dif.

So please, don't call me a fucking liar didge just because it doesn't tally with your own set-in-stone opinions.
Sometimes you are WRONG. Hard for you to comprehend that, isn't it?

Sorry Bullshit, the Chemo will weaken his immune system, that is a reality, but to say it is killing him is medically wrong on so many levels , so I am afraid to me you are a liar on this, because there is no way an  oncologist would say he died of chemo, because he would of died because of complications due to the chemo.
So no I will not accept your claim on any level, no matter how sensitive this is

so herr dick..tator is still claiming to know more than the specialist looking after them..

 Shocked 

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:30 pm

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Sorry Bullshit, the Chemo will weaken his immune system, that is a reality, but to say it is killing him is medically wrong on so many levels , so I am afraid to me you are a liar on this, because there is no way an  oncologist would say he died of chemo, because he would of died because of complications due to the chemo.
So no I will not accept your claim on any level, no matter how sensitive this is

so herr dick..tator is still claiming to know more than the specialist looking after them..

 Shocked 



Well thanks for the waffle, but let me know when you have anything intelligent to say, because lets face it you really are as thick as shit son ha ha

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:31 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

so herr dick..tator is still claiming to know more than the specialist looking after them..

 Shocked 



Well thanks for the waffle, but let me know when you have anything intelligent to say, because lets face it you really are as thick as shit son ha ha

and right back at you herr dick..tator... Smile 

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:31 pm

Oh for crying out loud Phil, stop talking rubbish.   As Eddie says, chemo is a balancing act, with advanced cancer they are trying to find the dose that will kill off the cancer before you, and sometimes when someone is very sick they can't judge that dose exactly.   You would die from the cancer anyway, so you take a chance.   Mostly it works, occasionally your system is weaker than they think and it doesn't.   To deny it is to deny how chemo works.   Thankfully, most of the time the balancing act kills of the cancer, but if you are sicker than they think and weaker than they think, it doesn't.   Stop being such a bloody know all.

It still gives you the chance that untested treatments never will.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:32 pm

Sassy wrote:Oh for crying out loud Phil, stop talking rubbish.   As Eddie says, chemo is a balancing act, with advanced cancer they are trying to find the dose that will kill off the cancer before you, and sometimes when someone is very sick they can't judge that dose exactly.   You would die from the cancer anyway, so you take a chance.   Mostly it works, occasionally your system is weaker than they think and it doesn't.   To deny it is to deny how chemo works.   Thankfully, most of the time the balancing act kills of the cancer, but if you are sicker than they think and weaker than they think, it doesn't.   Stop being such a bloody know all.


I am not talking rubbish if you think for one minute an oncologist would sy that, then you are daft also, because that is bullshit

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:34 pm

Really? Because that is exactly what the oncologist explains to you.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:36 pm

Sassy wrote:Really?   Because that is exactly what the oncologist explains to you.


Yes really, chemo weakens many parts of our system, but it would not directly kill you what would is because you are weaken you are then susceptible to many medical problems, so again an oncologist would not say the chemo directly killed him

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:38 pm

sassy is right so is eddie , my uncle had so much chemo and radiotherapy he died because of that .
Besides from this i think this is getting rather personal and philddige you are bang out of order here, just stop calling eddie a liar please its very cruel .


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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:40 pm

Stephenmarra wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Hi Ben

Any logical or sensible person would know this, funny how others do not showing what poor freinds they must make

 lol! 

Sorry Didge, if  any friend of mine  that  was in the habit of calling me a liar would very much be an ex friend.
An asshole, an ignorant tw** or stupid c*** is all good and possibly sound advice from a friend but liar that's a no-no.


Hence why you would have no friends, being honest to a friend knowing they have lied is able to help that friend get past why they needed to lie, and Ben agrees with me, showing why an honest friend is way better than one that just is like a pet dog only in agreement

Billy no mates if you have views like that, or are just a sheep and would have no real friends

Go figure

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:40 pm

we are discussing someones death aren't we, someones father, do you think now would be a good time to give it a rest...
I'm pretty sure eddie is not stupid and knows what the specialist said..

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:41 pm

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:we are discussing someones death aren't we, someones father, do you think now would be a good time to give it a rest...
I'm pretty sure eddie is not stupid and knows what the specialist said..
well said x

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:43 pm

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:we are discussing someones death aren't we, someones father, do you think now would be a good time to give it a rest...
I'm pretty sure eddie is not stupid and knows what the specialist said..


I am not knocking her father, I am not in agreement over what an oncologist said, simple as that, if someone makes a claim i see to be false I will challenge it

Eddie is not stupid, but nobody and mean nobody tells the truth on everything and here Eddie's views are one that are very skeptical of chemo thus to me biased

I have nothing against here and she knows this but I have a right to my view

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:46 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Godisgoodallthetime wrote:we are discussing someones death aren't we, someones father, do you think now would be a good time to give it a rest...
I'm pretty sure eddie is not stupid and knows what the specialist said..


I am not knocking her father, I am not in agreement over what an oncologist said, simple as that, if someone makes a claim i see to be false I will challenge it

Eddie is not stupid, but nobody and mean nobody tells the truth on everything and here Eddie's views are one that are very skeptical of chemo thus to me biased

I have nothing against here and she knows this but I have a right to my view  

just drop it eh, you've said your piece, if I were you i would send eddie a pm and apologise, if you haven't already...

she knows what she heard she has always said the same but let's just leave it, keep to topic or something else...

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:46 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Sassy wrote:Really?   Because that is exactly what the oncologist explains to you.


Yes really, chemo weakens many parts of our system, but it would not directly kill you what would is because you are weaken you are then susceptible to many medical problems, so again an oncologist would not say the chemo directly killed him

OMG, you have just shown you don't know a thing about chemo.

What the drugs all have in common is that they attack and kill cells that are in the process of dividing and multiplying. The different drugs work on cells at different stages of division. At any one time, there will be cells at each of the stages of cell division. So, one drug might kill cancer cells that are making new DNA just before they start to divide. And another drug may kill cells that are halfway through the dividing process. By combining drugs, cancer doctors make sure even more cancer cells are killed. Having cycles of treatment also increases the cell killing power of chemotherapy. Cancer cells that were resting when you had your first treatment may be dividing when you have your second. So they will survive the first time, but get killed off next time.

Normal cells and tissues also grow by dividing and multiplying. Individual cells divide into 2 identical daughter cells. But cancer cells divide much more often than normal cells. So at any one point in time, there are more cancer cells dividing than normal cells. The chemotherapy works because it kills more cancer cells than it does normal cells.

This gives us a clue about how chemotherapy affects the body. Any normal cells in the body that divide fairly often will be affected by chemotherapy. Some of the cells of tissues that divide quickly will die off and take time to be replaced.


http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-help/about-cancer/cancer-questions/how-does-chemotherapy-affect-the-body

And sometimes because of that, if you are weaker and sicker than they think, the chemo kills you. Its a chance you take to give you some hope of living. Which is exactly why the quicker they treat you and the less advanced the cancer and the stronger you are, the more chance you have of the cancer being killed and you getting better.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:48 pm

Sassy wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Yes really, chemo weakens many parts of our system, but it would not directly kill you what would is because you are weaken you are then susceptible to many medical problems, so again an oncologist would not say the chemo directly killed him

OMG, you have just shown you don't know a thing about chemo.

What the drugs all have in common is that they attack and kill cells that are in the process of dividing and multiplying. The different drugs work on cells at different stages of division. At any one time, there will be cells at each of the stages of cell division. So, one drug might kill cancer cells that are making new DNA just before they start to divide. And another drug may kill cells that are halfway through the dividing process. By combining drugs, cancer doctors make sure even more cancer cells are killed. Having cycles of treatment also increases the cell killing power of chemotherapy. Cancer cells that were resting when you had your first treatment may be dividing when you have your second. So they will survive the first time, but get killed off next time.

Normal cells and tissues also grow by dividing and multiplying. Individual cells divide into 2 identical daughter cells. But cancer cells divide much more often than normal cells. So at any one point in time, there are more cancer cells dividing than normal cells. The chemotherapy works because it kills more cancer cells than it does normal cells.

This gives us a clue about how chemotherapy affects the body. Any normal cells in the body that divide fairly often will be affected by chemotherapy. Some of the cells of tissues that divide quickly will die off and take time to be replaced.


http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-help/about-cancer/cancer-questions/how-does-chemotherapy-affect-the-body

And sometimes because of that, if you are weaker and sicker than they think, the chemo kills you.   Its a chance you take to give you some hope of living.   Which is exactly why the quicker they treat you and the less advanced the cancer and the stronger you are, the more chance you have of the cancer being killed and you getting better.


I do not know and you post a link showing you do not know, pathetic.

No the chemo has made you weak and it never directly kills you, but many things kill you because of chemo weakening someone, so again you are talking shit, no where in your link does it state it directly kills you


Pathetic

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:51 pm

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


I am not knocking her father, I am not in agreement over what an oncologist said, simple as that, if someone makes a claim i see to be false I will challenge it

Eddie is not stupid, but nobody and mean nobody tells the truth on everything and here Eddie's views are one that are very skeptical of chemo thus to me biased

I have nothing against here and she knows this but I have a right to my view  

just drop it eh, you've said your piece, if I were you i would send eddie a pm and apologise, if you haven't already...

she knows what she heard she has always said the same but let's just leave it, keep to topic or something else...


Do pipe down you little shit, I have nothing to apologise for, if you do not like the debate, then tough shit, you are the most insensitive shit with all your idiotic threads on the most dangerous advice to people, because you are an ignorant shit

This subject matters to me, so get bent

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:54 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Godisgoodallthetime wrote:

just drop it eh, you've said your piece, if I were you i would send eddie a pm and apologise, if you haven't already...

she knows what she heard she has always said the same but let's just leave it, keep to topic or something else...


Do pipe down you little shit, I have nothing to apologise for, if you do not  like the debate, then tough shit, you are the  most insensitive shit with all your idiotic threads on the most dangerous advice to people, because you are an ignorant shit

This subject matters to me, so get bent  

hey keep digging, I was actually trying to help...there might be some in here awaiting treatment that might be uneasy too bt you carry on... Smile 

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:54 pm

Chemo kills normal cells as well as the cancer cells, the oncologist, if your cancer is very advanced and you are weak, will tell you from the start it is a balancing act. If he/she doesn't, they are not following the protocol they are supposed to.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:55 pm

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Do pipe down you little shit, I have nothing to apologise for, if you do not  like the debate, then tough shit, you are the  most insensitive shit with all your idiotic threads on the most dangerous advice to people, because you are an ignorant shit

This subject matters to me, so get bent  

hey keep digging, I was actually trying to help...there might be some in here awaiting treatment that might be uneasy too bt you carry on... Smile 

You help? Ha Ha, no thanks the only thing you offer is hate son, which the irony of you claiming to be Christians is just comical.


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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:56 pm

Sassy wrote:Chemo kills normal cells as well as the cancer cells, the oncologist, if your cancer is very advanced and you are weak, will tell you from the start it is a balancing act.   If he/she doesn't, they are not following the protocol they are supposed to.


Yes it does kill normal cells, but again is not what kills you, so again no where would any claim the chemo was what directly killed them

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:01 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Sassy wrote:Chemo kills normal cells as well as the cancer cells, the oncologist, if your cancer is very advanced and you are weak, will tell you from the start it is a balancing act.   If he/she doesn't, they are not following the protocol they are supposed to.


Yes it does kill normal cells, but again is not what kills you, so again no where would any claim the chemo was what directly killed them

it kills normal cells, what happens when it kills too many cells for the body to recover, or the cells are in a vital organ??

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:04 pm

Godisgoodallthetime wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Yes it does kill normal cells, but again is not what kills you, so again no where would any claim the chemo was what directly killed them

it kills normal cells, what happens when it kills too many cells for the body to recover, or the cells are in a vital organ??


The body becomes weak and many normal other medical problems which are easily treatable are not here because the patient is too weak to fight them, but it is one of these other medical problems that kills them

Chemo plays a part I do not deny this never have, but not directly kills, hence why I very much doubt an oncologist would say as claimed

Simple

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:11 pm

Rolling Eyes 

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:15 pm

alkaline balance in the body can help with stopping cancer forming in my opinion...

I remember seeing bicarb being looked at and their was an idea from Canada that showed promise and has disappeared..

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:18 pm

Yea, thats why the bloke is being prosecuted, because he has killed people with that idea.

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Post by Guest on Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:23 pm

Sassy wrote:Yea, thats why the bloke is being prosecuted, because he has killed people with that idea.

I think it is more likely he is being prosecuted as the pharma companies hold all the cards...

bicarb was showing great promise on animals, can't for the life of me remember what the cure coming from Canada was!!! how annoying..

even hemp has shown some great signs..

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