JD's independence poll...

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JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:50 am

Just thought i would poll this and get the general gist of things on the forum...

I know I've a tidy rear, but try to stay focused on the poll folks.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Cass on Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:58 am

I voted on behalf of Mr. C.....his heart says FREEEEEEEDOOOOMMMMM, but he is smart he is and knows that it just isn't viable so his head says stay in the UK.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:04 am

Cass wrote:I voted on behalf of Mr. C.....his heart says FREEEEEEEDOOOOMMMMM, but he is smart he is and knows that it just isn't viable so his head says stay in the UK.


 Laughing 

Thanks Cass, tell Mr.C thanks for his vote! ::D:: 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:07 am

I voted for OH - Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedoooooooooooom!! ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:09 am

Definitely voted for them to eff off.

Shame they don't have the guts.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Lone Wolf on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:16 am

cheers 

Cry Freeeeeedom! OR DEATH....



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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:16 am

Sassy wrote:I voted for OH - Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedoooooooooooom!! ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: ::lightsab:: 
.  Smile Laughing 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:19 am

Lone Wolf wrote:cheers 

Cry Freeeeeedom!     OR DEATH....




Nice one Bee, it will be near death for the treasury once Scotland' commodity revenues stop flowing through London!

..should Scotland vote yes.

I will feel sorry for the many good people of England if there is yet another RW government elected after a possible Scottish departure  Crying or Very sad 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Eilzel on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:44 am

So much crap about one supporting the other financially; as if the whole debate should be about money. Whatever happened to heritage and shared culture and history? We have been a United Kingdom for over 300 years and those were the most prosperous centuries in the history of both nations. If the Scots go how long before Wales and Northern Ireland followed? What of our overseas territories? We benefit strategically, culturally and politically as one nation. Fortunately most Scots seem to agree.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:37 pm

Eilzel wrote:So much crap about one supporting the other financially; as if the whole debate should be about money. Whatever happened to heritage and shared culture and history? We have been a United Kingdom for over 300 years and those were the most prosperous centuries in the history of both nations. If the Scots go how long before Wales and Northern Ireland followed? What of our overseas territories? We benefit strategically, culturally and politically as one nation. Fortunately most Scots seem to agree.

Eilzel, tbh ...the daily mail and believers of it, as well as blackmail from other political parties are playing their  part In this..

But I'm a believer in that if a country wants to go it alone, then they should have that right, whichever country that is, what some are pissed off hearing is the nonsensical bleats about how Scotland would never manage it alone!!!...despite research and facts saying the opposite, Scotland as you may have heard would be a far richer country than England...

And if we do go it alone, it's those low paid , hard working English who will be left to no doubt tolerate many future RW governments...

The snobs, I couldn't give a monkeys about....you know, those who look down their beaks at others, I just can't stand that sort.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:59 pm

I hate centralized governments and think all countries should be independent, even Wales. I did think at the outset that the Scots stood no chance of winning a yes vote, but now that I hear Cyclops Brown has got involved on staying in the UK that's pretty much put the kiss of death on that, so they might just do it and leave.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:03 pm

Tess. wrote:I hate centralized governments and think all countries should be independent, even Wales.  I did think at the outset that the Scots stood no chance of winning a yes vote, but now that I hear Cyclops Brown has got involved on staying in the UK that's pretty much put the kiss of death on that, so they might just do it and leave.



Yeah, Gordon is involved now...there was a poll in my local paper to see if people thought he would have an effect on the campaign's result, most voted no in that one.

I agree that every country should be independent if they so wish and lie, you I thought for sure that a yes vote was out the windee...but with the three main parties blackmail and people saying daft things of Scotland it seems to have fired up some Scots.

.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:08 pm

Well you have 2 votes for being a cling-on (yourself and Iron) and 6 who want to set you adrift.

Looks like you'll get your wish.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Eilzel on Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:41 pm

^tess, where does that end though? Should Cornwall be independent? I heard that was what an admittedly tiny number wanted but should they if they wanted? How about those who want London and the SE to break off from the rest of England- it would be one of the richest city states in the world!

And that is what decentralization could lead to of course, lots of rich little city states and tiny countries- at the absolute mercy of the remaining power nations and populations like China, Russia, India etc- not mercy in a military sense either but also economic and in terms of resources.

Decentrilization has no limits; you might well decimate thw political landscape of the world and the ones to benefit would be the superstates.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:26 pm

BigAndy9 wrote:Well you have 2 votes for being a cling-on (yourself and Iron) and 6 who want to set you adrift.

Looks like you'll get your wish.


....oh, I wouldn't say I was a cling on Andy, and neither Irn...

But let's have some fun... Laughing 


Over the years, I've witnessed a fair bit of lap bouncing, folk can say here who is bouncing on whose lap the most...I will give my answer(s) in a wee while!! Laughing 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by gerber on Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:38 pm

I voted for the middle one but not a happy bunny JD..... I like to tick all the boxes for fun but on here no tick and I don't want spots.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:40 pm

gerber wrote:I voted for the middle one but not a happy bunny JD..... I like to tick all the boxes for fun but on here no tick and I don't want spots.

Ah , thanks for you vote Gerbs, I forgot you like voting and ticking!!, only a poll on posters can fix that!!!

I shall do my best next time!! Laughing 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:43 pm

Eilzel wrote:^tess, where does that end though? Should Cornwall be independent? I heard that was what an admittedly tiny number wanted but should they if they wanted? How about those who want London and the SE to break off from the rest of England- it would be one of the richest city states in the world!

And that is what decentralization could lead to of course, lots of rich little city states and tiny countries- at the absolute mercy of the remaining power nations and populations like China, Russia, India etc- not mercy in a military sense either but also economic and in terms of resources.

Decentrilization has no limits; you might well decimate thw political landscape of the world and the ones to benefit would be the superstates.

Iceland.  Cool 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Eilzel on Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:47 pm

Tess. wrote:
Eilzel wrote:^tess, where does that end though? Should Cornwall be independent? I heard that was what an admittedly tiny number wanted but should they if they wanted? How about those who want London and the SE to break off from the rest of England- it would be one of the richest city states in the world!

And that is what decentralization could lead to of course, lots of rich little city states and tiny countries- at the absolute mercy of the remaining power nations and populations like China, Russia, India etc- not mercy in a military sense either but also economic and in terms of resources.

Decentrilization has no limits; you might well decimate thw political landscape of the world and the ones to benefit would be the superstates.

Iceland.   Cool 

That doesn't really address my point you know.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by gerber on Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:48 pm

Tess. wrote:
Eilzel wrote:^tess, where does that end though? Should Cornwall be independent? I heard that was what an admittedly tiny number wanted but should they if they wanted? How about those who want London and the SE to break off from the rest of England- it would be one of the richest city states in the world!

And that is what decentralization could lead to of course, lots of rich little city states and tiny countries- at the absolute mercy of the remaining power nations and populations like China, Russia, India etc- not mercy in a military sense either but also economic and in terms of resources.

Decentrilization has no limits; you might well decimate thw political landscape of the world and the ones to benefit would be the superstates.

Iceland.   Cool 

All those spurting Geysers..........

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:00 pm

Now you are just talking dirty Gerbs  Wink 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by gerber on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:03 pm

Sassy wrote:Now you are just talking dirty Gerbs  Wink 

Geography might be the number one subject ticked in my school report........ ::dunno:: 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:06 pm

Ok, I'll believe you lol

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:12 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Tess. wrote:

Iceland.   Cool 

That doesn't really address my point you know.

My point is that a little country like Iceland's a hell of a lot better off since it told the EU what to do. And your point about tiny countries being at risk - there are such things as alliances: NATO for defence and what we used to have, the Commonwealth, for trade...

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by gerber on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:22 pm

Tess. wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

That doesn't really address my point you know.

My point is that a little country like Iceland's a hell of a lot better off since it told the EU what to do.  And your point about tiny countries being at risk - there are such things as alliances: NATO for defence and what we used to have, the Commonwealth, for trade...

A very point Tess. Look at them go now......... Had their bankers in court as well..... Seem to have things pretty well sussed.

We do still have the Commonwealth but a little something in my small brain says the EU restrict what we can trade with them and vice versa......

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Eilzel on Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:03 pm

Tess. wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

That doesn't really address my point you know.

My point is that a little country like Iceland's a hell of a lot better off since it told the EU what to do.  And your point about tiny countries being at risk - there are such things as alliances: NATO for defence and what we used to have, the Commonwealth, for trade...

But what you are saying is that countries should be free to break up into however many pieces they like - which by default includes potentially an independent Cornwall and a city-state of London- how far do you think decentralization should go if it is simply down to the will of people of a certain area?

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:04 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Tess. wrote:

My point is that a little country like Iceland's a hell of a lot better off since it told the EU what to do.  And your point about tiny countries being at risk - there are such things as alliances: NATO for defence and what we used to have, the Commonwealth, for trade...

But what you are saying is that countries should be free to break up into however many pieces they like - which by default includes potentially an independent Cornwall and a city-state of London- how far do you think decentralization should go if it is simply down to the will of people of a certain area?


Street by street independence? Laughing 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:16 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Tess. wrote:

My point is that a little country like Iceland's a hell of a lot better off since it told the EU what to do.  And your point about tiny countries being at risk - there are such things as alliances: NATO for defence and what we used to have, the Commonwealth, for trade...

But what you are saying is that countries should be free to break up into however many pieces they like - which by default includes potentially an independent Cornwall and a city-state of London- how far do you think decentralization should go if it is simply down to the will of people of a certain area?


How far should they go?

Well how about BigAndy9sville?

Everybody's invited, as long as you're white, have the passports of yourself, parents and grandparents showing Englishness and you're wearing your jackboots (whatever they are).

 :::hitler: 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:22 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Tess. wrote:

My point is that a little country like Iceland's a hell of a lot better off since it told the EU what to do.  And your point about tiny countries being at risk - there are such things as alliances: NATO for defence and what we used to have, the Commonwealth, for trade...

But what you are saying is that countries should be free to break up into however many pieces they like - which by default includes potentially an independent Cornwall and a city-state of London- how far do you think decentralization should go if it is simply down to the will of people of a certain area?

Yeah - Republic of Tooting!


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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:28 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Tess. wrote:

My point is that a little country like Iceland's a hell of a lot better off since it told the EU what to do.  And your point about tiny countries being at risk - there are such things as alliances: NATO for defence and what we used to have, the Commonwealth, for trade...

But what you are saying is that countries should be free to break up into however many pieces they like - which by default includes potentially an independent Cornwall and a city-state of London- how far do you think decentralization should go if it is simply down to the will of people of a certain area?

Hi Eilzel 

I am sure Shady would love that, an independent Cornwall, which is not beyond the realms of fantasy being as they do have their own Celtic language though hardly used. I think though what you have to ask really is breaking off into smaller nations the answer, as quite rightly you are saying? If Scotland want their independence then to me it would be a shame, due to the history. What I do see though is history where nations have broken up into smaller independent nations of which to be honest many now struggle. Take again America, its power and Economics just like China, have come off being one unified nation, though they could have separated at some points in time to smaller independent nations, in fact in the states this did happen. What has to be asked is if nationalism is really a viable option, because it does weaken a nation for access to resources, wealth and security, sadly this is important. If anything yes there should be centralized power placed within each part of the UK, England included, but what would Scotland achieve which they do not already have now. Great Britain is unique to most, we are separate nations in a way, unified as one as well and that is why I fail to see why going seperate ways is off any benefit, though I am sure those who are Scottish will see otherwise.

Fair play to them if they do go that way, but any English saying good riddance are just being spiteful and not thankful for the Scottish contribution to Britain, me myself I hope they stay, as we make for a better nation united together

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Eilzel on Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:35 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

But what you are saying is that countries should be free to break up into however many pieces they like - which by default includes potentially an independent Cornwall and a city-state of London- how far do you think decentralization should go if it is simply down to the will of people of a certain area?

Hi Eilzel 

I am sure Shady would love that, an independent Cornwall, which is not beyond the realms of fantasy being as they do have their own Celtic language though hardly used. I think though what you have to ask really is breaking off into smaller nations the answer, as quite rightly you are saying? If Scotland want their independence then to me it would be a shame, due to the history. What I do see though is history where nations have broken up into smaller independent nations of which to be honest many now struggle. Take again America, its power and Economics just like China, have come off being one unified nation, though they could have separated at some points in time to smaller independent nations, in fact in the states this did happen. What has to be asked is if nationalism is really a viable option, because it does weaken a nation for access to resources, wealth and security, sadly this is important. If anything yes there should be centralized power placed within each part of the UK, England included, but what would Scotland achieve which they do not already have now. Great Britain is unique to most, we are separate nations in a way, unified as one as well and that is why I fail to see why going seperate ways is off any benefit, though I am sure those who are Scottish will see otherwise.

Fair play to them if they do go that way, but any English saying good riddance are just being spiteful and not thankful for the Scottish contribution to Britain, me myself I hope they stay, as we make for a better nation united together

Well said didge! Pretty much captures my feeling on this too. Uncertain futures mean nations are stronger when they are closer- I know there are some in America (and Texas is one the springs to mind) that would like their state to separate from the Union- but I imagine most Americans would recoil in horror at such an idea, or at least frown at it in obscenity- perhaps some of our Yankee friends here can tell us  Cool 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:46 pm

Eilzel wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Hi Eilzel 

I am sure Shady would love that, an independent Cornwall, which is not beyond the realms of fantasy being as they do have their own Celtic language though hardly used. I think though what you have to ask really is breaking off into smaller nations the answer, as quite rightly you are saying? If Scotland want their independence then to me it would be a shame, due to the history. What I do see though is history where nations have broken up into smaller independent nations of which to be honest many now struggle. Take again America, its power and Economics just like China, have come off being one unified nation, though they could have separated at some points in time to smaller independent nations, in fact in the states this did happen. What has to be asked is if nationalism is really a viable option, because it does weaken a nation for access to resources, wealth and security, sadly this is important. If anything yes there should be centralized power placed within each part of the UK, England included, but what would Scotland achieve which they do not already have now. Great Britain is unique to most, we are separate nations in a way, unified as one as well and that is why I fail to see why going seperate ways is off any benefit, though I am sure those who are Scottish will see otherwise.

Fair play to them if they do go that way, but any English saying good riddance are just being spiteful and not thankful for the Scottish contribution to Britain, me myself I hope they stay, as we make for a better nation united together

Well said didge! Pretty much captures my feeling on this too. Uncertain futures mean nations are stronger when they are closer- I know there are some in America (and Texas is one the springs to mind) that would like their state to separate from the Union- but I imagine most Americans would recoil in horror at such an idea, or at least frown at it in obscenity- perhaps some of our Yankee friends here can tell us  Cool 
Well all I can say is that, if you scale it down and deal with the concept of centralization, looking back at every single thing that's been centralized it's gone downhill. When I was a kid there were small London boroughs. Each one had its own small town hall, knew it's people, outgoings were small and everything worked fine. Then they joined up and immediately bigger town halls were built, and like Topsy they grew and grew, so you end up paying for ten times the number of staff; scale up and you get the EU, spending billions on bigger and more splendid Euro-palaces, costs spiral out of control, more senseless rules and regulations come into force and people become numbers, statistics.

Even over here, there used to be little offices for each council department, I'd walk into the car tax office and get served straight away - then they merged everything into one magnificent new building, it takes you half an hour to find a parking space, there are queues of people and it takes ten times longer to get dealt with. I know you'll say that's nothing to do with independent countries, but it is - it's the same thing. Independence works better, centralization's a disaster.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Cass on Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:48 pm

Eilzel wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Hi Eilzel 

I am sure Shady would love that, an independent Cornwall, which is not beyond the realms of fantasy being as they do have their own Celtic language though hardly used. I think though what you have to ask really is breaking off into smaller nations the answer, as quite rightly you are saying? If Scotland want their independence then to me it would be a shame, due to the history. What I do see though is history where nations have broken up into smaller independent nations of which to be honest many now struggle. Take again America, its power and Economics just like China, have come off being one unified nation, though they could have separated at some points in time to smaller independent nations, in fact in the states this did happen. What has to be asked is if nationalism is really a viable option, because it does weaken a nation for access to resources, wealth and security, sadly this is important. If anything yes there should be centralized power placed within each part of the UK, England included, but what would Scotland achieve which they do not already have now. Great Britain is unique to most, we are separate nations in a way, unified as one as well and that is why I fail to see why going seperate ways is off any benefit, though I am sure those who are Scottish will see otherwise.

Fair play to them if they do go that way, but any English saying good riddance are just being spiteful and not thankful for the Scottish contribution to Britain, me myself I hope they stay, as we make for a better nation united together

Well said didge! Pretty much captures my feeling on this too. Uncertain futures mean nations are stronger when they are closer- I know there are some in America (and Texas is one the springs to mind) that would like their state to separate from the Union- but I imagine most Americans would recoil in horror at such an idea, or at least frown at it in obscenity- perhaps some of our Yankee friends here can tell us  Cool 

Believe it or not there are a lot more than Texas....it all goes back to States Rights which are in the constitution - The federal govt was really just a way of bringing together vastly different states under 1 roof but still allowing them vast autonomy in certain areas but now the lines have become so blurred and consequently there are constant lawsuits headed to the supreme court for the very same reason.

personally i don't ever want any of the states to leave the union - we started as a nation (evenutally) and that is the way it should be - rather different for Scotland. They were basically taken over cause Liz 1 did not have kids. I read somewhere that California actually has the 6th largest economy in the WORLD.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Eilzel on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:07 pm

Cass wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Well said didge! Pretty much captures my feeling on this too. Uncertain futures mean nations are stronger when they are closer- I know there are some in America (and Texas is one the springs to mind) that would like their state to separate from the Union- but I imagine most Americans would recoil in horror at such an idea, or at least frown at it in obscenity- perhaps some of our Yankee friends here can tell us  Cool 

Believe it or not there are a lot more than Texas....it all goes back to States Rights which are in the constitution - The federal govt was really just a way of bringing together vastly different states under 1 roof but still allowing them vast autonomy in certain areas but now the lines have become so blurred and consequently there are constant lawsuits headed to the supreme court for the very same reason.

personally i don't ever want any of the states to leave the union - we started as a nation (evenutally) and that is the way it should be - rather different for Scotland. They were basically taken over cause Liz 1 did not have kids. I read somewhere that California actually has the 6th largest economy in the WORLD.

I can believe it of California; I'm quite sure some states will boost others but of course as I'm sure you agree these things are not all about money.

Scotland wasn't a full political partner with England until 1707 though; even if we did 'break up' now, we'd still have the same Queen and the situation would have returned to its pre-Union but post Liz I scenario. Scotland and England becoming the UK was an agreement, a partnership- they weren't colonized or conquered; and even if you do take James I & VI being the start of it all, the King was a Scot  Smile 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Eilzel on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:10 pm

Tess. wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Well said didge! Pretty much captures my feeling on this too. Uncertain futures mean nations are stronger when they are closer- I know there are some in America (and Texas is one the springs to mind) that would like their state to separate from the Union- but I imagine most Americans would recoil in horror at such an idea, or at least frown at it in obscenity- perhaps some of our Yankee friends here can tell us  Cool 
Well all I can say is that, if you scale it down and deal with the concept of centralization, looking back at every single thing that's been centralized it's gone downhill.  When I was a kid there were small London boroughs.  Each one had its own small town hall, knew it's people, outgoings were small and everything worked fine.  Then they joined up and immediately bigger town halls were built, and like Topsy they grew and grew, so you end up paying for ten times the number of staff; scale up and you get the EU, spending billions on bigger and more splendid Euro-palaces, costs spiral out of control, more senseless rules and regulations come into force and people become numbers, statistics.  

Even over here, there used to be little offices for each council department, I'd walk into the car tax office and get served straight away - then they merged everything into one magnificent new building, it takes you half an hour to find a parking space, there are queues of people and it takes ten times longer to get dealt with.  I know you'll say that's nothing to do with independent countries, but it is - it's the same thing.  Independence works better, centralization's a disaster.

Independence works for small populations Tess. Do you think for example, if London became independent, that suddenly there'd be no queues or congestion of waiting around? People cite Iceland, Norway etc as bastions of how wonderful a country can be- well they do have relatively tiny populations- not difficult to maintain a sense of organization and familiarity when you have 12 people in a town (I exaggerate somewhat  Wink )...

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Cass on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:12 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Cass wrote:

Believe it or not there are a lot more than Texas....it all goes back to States Rights which are in the constitution - The federal govt was really just a way of bringing together vastly different states under 1 roof but still allowing them vast autonomy in certain areas but now the lines have become so blurred and consequently there are constant lawsuits headed to the supreme court for the very same reason.

personally i don't ever want any of the states to leave the union - we started as a nation (evenutally) and that is the way it should be - rather different for Scotland. They were basically taken over cause Liz 1 did not have kids. I read somewhere that California actually has the 6th largest economy in the WORLD.

I can believe it of California; I'm quite sure some states will boost others but of course as I'm sure you agree these things are not all about money.

Scotland wasn't a full political partner with England until 1707 though; even if we did 'break up' now, we'd still have the same Queen and the situation would have returned to its pre-Union but post Liz I scenario. Scotland and England becoming the UK was an agreement, a partnership- they weren't colonized or conquered; and even if you do take James I & VI being the start of it all, the King was a Scot  Smile 

Well of course he was - there is no way he would have turned down being King of England with all the wealth that entailed (he was a strange one was our James) - but I think that a lot of the Scottish nobels had been bought off to agree to the "informal takeover" - they had all played both sides for so long and it was all about getting as much power and money and lands as they could get their greedy little hands on. Hence the overthrow of Mary QOS - it was a political power play - although she didn't help herself one little bit when it came to abduction by Bothwell and the silly moo should have gone straight to France instead of seeking help and asylum from Liz....

sorry I digress.....at the end of the day Scotland was conquered albeit without much bloodshed.

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Eilzel on Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:21 pm

Cass wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

I can believe it of California; I'm quite sure some states will boost others but of course as I'm sure you agree these things are not all about money.

Scotland wasn't a full political partner with England until 1707 though; even if we did 'break up' now, we'd still have the same Queen and the situation would have returned to its pre-Union but post Liz I scenario. Scotland and England becoming the UK was an agreement, a partnership- they weren't colonized or conquered; and even if you do take James I & VI being the start of it all, the King was a Scot  Smile 

Well of course he was - there is no way he would have turned down being King of England with all the wealth that entailed (he was a strange one was our James) - but I think that a lot of the Scottish nobels had been bought off to agree to the "informal takeover" - they had all played both sides for so long and it was all about getting as much power and money and lands as they could get their greedy little hands on. Hence the overthrow of Mary QOS - it was a political power play - although she didn't help herself one little bit when it came to abduction by Bothwell and the silly moo should have gone straight to France instead of seeking help and asylum from Liz....

sorry I digress.....at the end of the day Scotland was conquered albeit without much bloodshed.

Wasn't everything power politics back then; that's how nations are born- I don't see too many Germans of today in the various provinces saying they want to break away since it was only Bismark's bullying they are together in the first place  Wink 

Besides the Scots benefited as much as the rest of the UK from being the leaders of the British Empire, which was itself a major draw to the Union in the first place. I think we'll agree to disagree on our interpretation of 'conquered'  Cool 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Cass on Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:41 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Cass wrote:

Well of course he was - there is no way he would have turned down being King of England with all the wealth that entailed (he was a strange one was our James) - but I think that a lot of the Scottish nobels had been bought off to agree to the "informal takeover" - they had all played both sides for so long and it was all about getting as much power and money and lands as they could get their greedy little hands on. Hence the overthrow of Mary QOS - it was a political power play - although she didn't help herself one little bit when it came to abduction by Bothwell and the silly moo should have gone straight to France instead of seeking help and asylum from Liz....

sorry I digress.....at the end of the day Scotland was conquered albeit without much bloodshed.

Wasn't everything power politics back then; that's how nations are born- I don't see too many Germans of today in the various provinces saying they want to break away since it was only Bismark's bullying they are together in the first place  Wink 

Besides the Scots benefited as much as the rest of the UK from being the leaders of the British Empire, which was itself a major draw to the Union in the first place. I think we'll agree to disagree on our interpretation of 'conquered'  Cool 

Hey being married to a Scot for 24 years has had some influence on me. I even have a bloody picture of Bannockburn in my dining room. 700 years this June.

(this would now be the place for FTL to insert a smiley face wearing a kilt and blowing on bagpipes but alas I am not her)

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:31 pm

This is ridiculous. The UK should be part of the Nation of Europe.  Razz  Razz  Razz  Razz  Razz 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:11 pm

Cass wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Wasn't everything power politics back then; that's how nations are born- I don't see too many Germans of today in the various provinces saying they want to break away since it was only Bismark's bullying they are together in the first place  Wink 

Besides the Scots benefited as much as the rest of the UK from being the leaders of the British Empire, which was itself a major draw to the Union in the first place. I think we'll agree to disagree on our interpretation of 'conquered'  Cool 

Hey being married to a Scot for 24 years has had some influence on me. I even have a bloody picture of Bannockburn in my dining room. 700 years this June.

(this would now be the place for FTL to insert a smiley face wearing a kilt and blowing on bagpipes but alas I am not her)



Hey Cass love it!!!...smiley Queen FTL....give our Cass what she wants,,,please put a bagpipe playing smilie up!!!!!!!! Laughing 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:59 am

Eilzel wrote:
Tess. wrote:
Well all I can say is that, if you scale it down and deal with the concept of centralization, looking back at every single thing that's been centralized it's gone downhill.  When I was a kid there were small London boroughs.  Each one had its own small town hall, knew it's people, outgoings were small and everything worked fine.  Then they joined up and immediately bigger town halls were built, and like Topsy they grew and grew, so you end up paying for ten times the number of staff; scale up and you get the EU, spending billions on bigger and more splendid Euro-palaces, costs spiral out of control, more senseless rules and regulations come into force and people become numbers, statistics.  

Even over here, there used to be little offices for each council department, I'd walk into the car tax office and get served straight away - then they merged everything into one magnificent new building, it takes you half an hour to find a parking space, there are queues of people and it takes ten times longer to get dealt with.  I know you'll say that's nothing to do with independent countries, but it is - it's the same thing.  Independence works better, centralization's a disaster.

Independence works for small populations Tess. Do you think for example, if London became independent, that suddenly there'd be no queues or congestion of waiting around? People cite Iceland, Norway etc as bastions of how wonderful a country can be- well they do have relatively tiny populations- not difficult to maintain a sense of organization and familiarity when you have 12 people in a town (I exaggerate somewhat  Wink )...
I wasn't being serious about the Republic of Tooting - I never even mentioned making parts of England independent - you did. I'm talking about separate countries being independent, i.e. England, and forming alliances with friendly countries to help each other, but not to be ruled by them! I think England would manage somehow.  Rolling Eyes 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Stephenmarra on Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:24 am

More or less agree with Les "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts"  I think we're all stronger united than going our separate ways.
Besides what the hell would they have to complain and whine  about if they got independence ?   Smile
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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Cass on Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:48 am

Stephenmarra wrote:More or less agree with Les "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts"  I think we're all stronger united than going our separate ways.
Besides what the hell would they have to complain and whine  about if they got independence ?   Smile

well you could say the same thing about the English - although there is always Wales to pick on  ::hndbg::

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Stephenmarra on Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:59 am

Cass wrote:
Stephenmarra wrote:More or less agree with Les "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts"  I think we're all stronger united than going our separate ways.
Besides what the hell would they have to complain and whine  about if they got independence ?   Smile

well you could say the same thing about the English - although there is always Wales to pick on  ::hndbg::
Hmmm ! Not really, we English whine about as you say the Welsh, Irish and the French also north v south, whereas those north of  the border only have us.
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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:08 am

Stephenmarra wrote:
Cass wrote:

well you could say the same thing about the English - although there is always Wales to pick on  ::hndbg::
Hmmm ! Not really, we English whine about as you say the Welsh, Irish and the French also north v south, whereas those north of  the border only have us.



...but your a Scotsman living in England are you not Stephen?

Just the way you worded 'we English' as if you were English!

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Eilzel on Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:42 am

Tess, I was answering to your point of supporting decentralisation in general, a point of yours you seem to gave actually forgotten about- this is the problem see when some presents an argument a you respond to a number if points with one word (Iceland), you have ended up forgetting your own post I responded to haha

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Stephenmarra on Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:09 pm

Joy Division wrote:
Stephenmarra wrote:
Hmmm ! Not really, we English whine about as you say the Welsh, Irish and the French also north v south, whereas those north of  the border only have us.



...but your a Scotsman living in England are you not Stephen?

Just the way you worded 'we English' as if you were English!


No, Cumbrian born and bred although my brother lives over the border, married a Scottish lass , one kid English the other born in Scotland so it's fun when the international  Football or Rugby's  on. To be fair I live less than 20 min's from Scotland.
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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Cass on Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:05 pm

Stephenmarra wrote:
Joy Division wrote:



...but your a Scotsman living in England are you not Stephen?

Just the way you worded 'we English' as if you were English!


No, Cumbrian born and bred although my brother lives over the border, married a Scottish lass , one kid English the other born in Scotland so it's fun when the international  Football or Rugby's  on. To be fair I live less than 20 min's from Scotland.

it's like that in ours during the Ryder Cup - although I pretend to care, i really feel more like  Sleep 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:33 pm

Stephenmarra wrote:
Joy Division wrote:



...but your a Scotsman living in England are you not Stephen?

Just the way you worded 'we English' as if you were English!


No, Cumbrian born and bred although my brother lives over the border, married a Scottish lass , one kid English the other born in Scotland so it's fun when the international  Football or Rugby's  on. To be fair I live less than 20 min's from Scotland.


I gotcha Stephen.

You e kind of hot the best of both countries where you are then?...

Been down to the sands centre in Carlisle a couple of times, been to Carlise itself quite often actually!,used to go to the bingo down there, they built a new one not far from where the old one was.


..we won a thousand quid on a link game down there back in 1999, teckle!! Cool 

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Re: JD's independence poll...

Post by gerber on Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:36 pm

Joy Division wrote:
Stephenmarra wrote:


No, Cumbrian born and bred although my brother lives over the border, married a Scottish lass , one kid English the other born in Scotland so it's fun when the international  Football or Rugby's  on. To be fair I live less than 20 min's from Scotland.


I gotcha Stephen.

You e kind of hot the best of both countries where you are then?...

Been down to the sands centre in Carlisle a couple of times, been to Carlise itself quite often actually!,used to go to the bingo down there, they built a new one not far from where the old one was.


..we won a thousand quid on a link game down there  back in 1999, teckle!! Cool 

Two fat ducks.......................  ::hndbg:: 

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