What is tactical voting and why is it bad for democracy?

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Post by eddie on Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

What is tactical voting and why is it bad for democracy? - Page 3 Ecb1ef10

Tactical voting is not likely to disappear any time soon. As the country remains more divided than ever over Brexit, there has been an increase in tactical voting websites to help voters make their decisions. Yet the difficulty in predicting how people plan to vote, has meant that different tactical voting websites have made different recommendations. Its high time that we resolve this broken system of voting.

How can we change this?

We need an electoral system that works for voters, not one that voters have to try to workaround. Under a proportional system, the need for of tactical voting massively drops. That’s because, as there is more than one winner in each area, unless you decide to vote for a tiny fringe party there is a high chance you will get someone elected to represent you. The Single Transferable Vote (STV) form of proportional representation is even better as you can write down back up choices in case your first choice doesn’t get enough votes. STV gives people the chance to vote for their preferred candidate without the fear that their vote will go to waste.

It is now more important than ever, that the public is involved in decisions being made for the future of our country. With a voting system that allows people’s voices to be heard, we can introduce a fairer democracy.

”It is a damning indictment of an electoral system that it makes its voters change their behaviour to work around its failings”

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/what-is-tactical-voting-and-why-is-it-bad-for-democracy/

I understand why people do it, but for me, I would never, ever, vote tactically. I have to stay true to what I believe.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:00 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:If I could just interrupt the sidetrack for a second, this thread is really about whether tactical voting is a good thing or not.

I argue that if it's inevitable that, for example, the United States will elect a new president, and that this person will have a lot of power over the lives of millions of people, it's irresponsible to vote for someone who has no chance of winning when the two people who do have a chance to win are unequally bad.

In that case, the only choice, logically and morally, is to choose the better candidate, even if they're not as appealing to you as someone who is polling at less than 1 percent.

It's about choosing the option that is a combination of best and most realistic, which is a solid way to make every decision.

It's immoral to not vote for the person that you think will  e the best person for the job.  

You have to take the action that results in the greatest good for the greatest number of people, no?

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:01 pm

eddie wrote:
eddie wrote:

No, me neither.

Why wouldn’t you?

Don’t think you saw this.

Indeed Eddie

What is the point in tactical voting?
I live in a safe Conservative seat but would rather a Liberal win
If people place their own values second to ensuring the worst people obtain power

As happened in nazi germany. Then they have no idea on history

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:03 pm

Maddog wrote:
phildidge wrote:

Explain to me who is being destroyed and how?

On more time.  

Should the women that slept with Bill be destroyed?

One more time

How many times are you going to dodge every single point and question posed to you

Define destroyed?

Then answer why you believe only men should be destroyed based on your interpretation

Are you going to answer the many points I made

Or be like Quill?

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Post by eddie on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:06 pm

phildidge wrote:
eddie wrote:
eddie wrote:

No, me neither.

Why wouldn’t you?

Don’t think you saw this.

Indeed Eddie

What is the point in tactical voting?
I live in a safe Conservative seat but would rather a Liberal win
If people place their own values second to ensuring the worst people obtain power

As happened in nazi germany. Then they have no idea on history

For me, it’s about voting for the party I want not a party that will remove the “enemy”

I have to vote from the heart.

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:09 pm

eddie wrote:
phildidge wrote:

Indeed Eddie

What is the point in tactical voting?
I live in a safe Conservative seat but would rather a Liberal win
If people place their own values second to ensuring the worst people obtain power

As happened in nazi germany. Then they have no idea on history

For me, it’s about voting for the party I want not a party that will remove the “enemy”

I have to vote from the heart.

The point is this Eddie

None of he parties have the best interest of the people at heart. Just their own ideologies

If they had the people at heart, they would place them first over any policy

That is why elections are pointless.

The only time they ever come together is in times of war. When there is an even greater threat

How sad is that?

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:16 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It's immoral to not vote for the person that you think will  e the best person for the job.  

You have to take the action that results in the greatest good for the greatest number of people, no?

No.

Stop acting like your vote is somehow saving the damn world.

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:18 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It's immoral to not vote for the person that you think will  e the best person for the job.  

You have to take the action that results in the greatest good for the greatest number of people, no?

As Germany did when they voted in the Nazis?

This is where democracy has its shortfalls

When fear takes control and people vote in a group of hateful people, that bought people a lie. Based off fear of others

It litterally brought about the ruin of germany

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:19 pm

phildidge wrote:
Maddog wrote:

On more time.  

Should the women that slept with Bill be destroyed?

One more time

How many times are you going to dodge every single point and question posed to you

Define destroyed?

Then answer why you believe only men should be destroyed based on your interpretation

Are you going to answer the many points I made

Or be like Quill?

"According to journalist Michael Isikoff, the Clinton campaign in 1992 spent $100,000 on private-detective work related to women. The approach, when rumors first popped up, was to get affidavits from women denying affairs — the reflex of most women is to avoid exposure — and, failing that, to use any discrediting tool at hand.

Hillary was fully on board. When a rock groupie told Penthouse in late 1991 that a state trooper approached her on Gov. Clinton’s behalf, Hillary said “we have to destroy her story.”"


Ask Hillary what it means. It's her words, not mine.


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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:21 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It's immoral to not vote for the person that you think will  e the best person for the job.  

You have to take the action that results in the greatest good for the greatest number of people, no?

No.

Stop acting like your vote is somehow saving the damn world.  

My vote is the single most powerful thing I own toward achieving the goal of saving the damn world.

I don't toss it aside and pretend that both major parties are as bad as one another.

Then again, I also don't carry water for rich greedy bastards who try to brainwash people into believing that if we were to do away with all regulations on business, we'd all be as rich as they are.

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:21 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:

You have to take the action that results in the greatest good for the greatest number of people, no?

No.

Stop acting like your vote is somehow saving the damn world.  

How is your view any different?

As you claim its immoral, based off no actual reason. To not vote for the best person that you percieve will be the best person for the job

Again many people thought Hitler was the best person for the Job

Wou;ld you claim it wa immoral to not vote for him, not based in hindisght?

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:24 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

No.

Stop acting like your vote is somehow saving the damn world.  

My vote is the single most powerful thing I own toward achieving the goal of saving the damn world.

I don't toss it aside and pretend that both major parties are as bad as one another.

Then again, I also don't carry water for rich greedy bastards who try to brainwash people into believing that if we were to do away with all regulations on business, we'd all be as rich as they are.

Well, I'll sleep a little better tonight. Cool

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:24 pm

And I'd also argue that if you're making a decision that you know won't result in the greatest good for the greatest number of people, you can't possibly call it moral.

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:25 pm

phildidge wrote:
Maddog wrote:

No.

Stop acting like your vote is somehow saving the damn world.  

How is your view any different?

As you claim its immoral, based off no actual reason. To not vote for the best person that you percieve will be the best person for the job

Again many people thought Hitler was the best person for the Job

Wou;ld you claim it wa immoral to not vote for him, not based in hindisght?

You wouldn't like my reasons.

That's how opinions work sometimes. Wink

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:26 pm

Maddog wrote:
phildidge wrote:

One more time

How many times are you going to dodge every single point and question posed to you

Define destroyed?

Then answer why you believe only men should be destroyed based on your interpretation

Are you going to answer the many points I made

Or be like Quill?

"According to journalist Michael Isikoff, the Clinton campaign in 1992 spent $100,000 on private-detective work related to women. The approach, when rumors first popped up, was to get affidavits from women denying affairs — the reflex of most women is to avoid exposure — and, failing that, to use any discrediting tool at hand.

Hillary was fully on board. When a rock groupie told Penthouse in late 1991 that a state trooper approached her on Gov. Clinton’s behalf, Hillary said “we have to destroy her story.”"


Ask Hillary what it means. It's her words, not mine.


So you are happy to expose men and not women for infidelity?
Why is it okay to expose Clinton and not this woman that slept with him?
If its wrong to expose, why do you think its wrong to destroy her and not Clinton

Do you see how badly your argument falls down

Frankly I dont give a fuck about th whole situation

When you fuck a president, behind the first ladies back. Do you not think she is going to be pissed like any woman scorned?

You think this should offer her some protection?

Both Bill and the woman he slept with, knew what they were doing

I have zero sympathy for either of them

When caught this is the reality they will face and yet you seem to want to shield one side here

Your argument is so warped its hilarious

Again knowing what Clinton did and if he was then destroyed. Would you have batted an eyelid or made an argument about his life being destroyed?

Or do you hold some unequal value here?

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:26 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:And I'd also argue that if you're making a decision that you know won't result in the greatest good for the greatest number of people, you can't possibly call it moral.


Watch me.

It's moral to vote for the person who you feel is the best person for the job.

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:28 pm

Maddog wrote:
phildidge wrote:

How is your view any different?

As you claim its immoral, based off no actual reason. To not vote for the best person that you percieve will be the best person for the job

Again many people thought Hitler was the best person for the Job

Wou;ld you claim it wa immoral to not vote for him, not based in hindisght?

You wouldn't like my reasons.

That's how opinions work sometimes. Wink

It does not matter whether I like them or not

You clearly are dodging buddy

As what matters here and what you failed to apply in your argument is what is fair

You are happy for Bill to be destroyed but not the woman that fucked him regularly

Either its wrong to destroy both, or its okay to expose both

So which is it?

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:30 pm

phildidge wrote:
Maddog wrote:

"According to journalist Michael Isikoff, the Clinton campaign in 1992 spent $100,000 on private-detective work related to women. The approach, when rumors first popped up, was to get affidavits from women denying affairs — the reflex of most women is to avoid exposure — and, failing that, to use any discrediting tool at hand.

Hillary was fully on board. When a rock groupie told Penthouse in late 1991 that a state trooper approached her on Gov. Clinton’s behalf, Hillary said “we have to destroy her story.”"


Ask Hillary what it means. It's her words, not mine.


So you are happy to expose men and not women for infidelity?
Why is it okay to expose Clinton and not this woman that slept with him?
If its wrong to expose, why do you think its wrong to destroy her and not Clinton

Do you see how badly your argument falls down

Frankly I dont give a fuck about th whole situation

When you fuck a president, behind the first ladies back. Do you not think she is going to be pissed like any woman scorned?

You think this should offer her some protection?

Both Bill and the woman he slept with, knew what they were doing

I have zero sympathy for either of them

When caught this is the reality they will face and yet you seem to want to shield one side here

Your argument is so warped its hilarious

Again knowing what Clinton did and if he was then destroyed. Would you have batted an eyelid or made an argument about his life being destroyed?

Or do you hold some unequal value here?


I'm not trying to shield either side.

That is what Hillary did when attacking and trying to destroy the women that slept with her husband.

She used her considerable power and influence against mostly powerless women.

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:30 pm

phildidge wrote:
Maddog wrote:

You wouldn't like my reasons.

That's how opinions work sometimes. Wink

It does not matter whether I like them or not

You clearly are dodging buddy

As what matters here and what you failed to apply in your argument is what is fair

You are happy for Bill to be destroyed but not the woman that fucked him regularly

Either its wrong to destroy both, or its okay to expose both

So which is it?

Who gets to decide what is fair?

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:34 pm

Maddog wrote:
phildidge wrote:

So you are happy to expose men and not women for infidelity?
Why is it okay to expose Clinton and not this woman that slept with him?
If its wrong to expose, why do you think its wrong to destroy her and not Clinton

Do you see how badly your argument falls down

Frankly I dont give a fuck about th whole situation

When you fuck a president, behind the first ladies back. Do you not think she is going to be pissed like any woman scorned?

You think this should offer her some protection?

Both Bill and the woman he slept with, knew what they were doing

I have zero sympathy for either of them

When caught this is the reality they will face and yet you seem to want to shield one side here

Your argument is so warped its hilarious

Again knowing what Clinton did and if he was then destroyed. Would you have batted an eyelid or made an argument about his life being destroyed?

Or do you hold some unequal value here?

This is why your view is so fucked up


I'm not trying to shield either side.

That is what Hillary did when attacking and trying to destroy the women that slept with her husband.

She used her considerable power and influence against mostly powerless women.      

This is why your view is so fucked up

You are neither bother that two people were having an affair

Or the fact one of them was a president

You only care how the scorned victim here acted to this

You dont defend Bill from eing attacked

You attack the victim here Hilary, for being angered at the fact she was being lied to and knowing someone she knew was fucking her husband

And you are angered at her reaction here

I do not back what Hilary did, but you have about as much sense of reality as a lame duck here in understanding. When you center your anger on Hilary. Its nothing to do with this, but your political bias and i cannot stand Hilary clinton

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:34 pm

Maddog wrote:
phildidge wrote:

It does not matter whether I like them or not

You clearly are dodging buddy

As what matters here and what you failed to apply in your argument is what is fair

You are happy for Bill to be destroyed but not the woman that fucked him regularly

Either its wrong to destroy both, or its okay to expose both

So which is it?

Who gets to decide what is fair?

Apparantly you have by deciding what it means to be destroyed as unfair

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:44 pm

Maddog wrote:
phildidge wrote:

So you are happy to expose men and not women for infidelity?
Why is it okay to expose Clinton and not this woman that slept with him?
If its wrong to expose, why do you think its wrong to destroy her and not Clinton

Do you see how badly your argument falls down

Frankly I dont give a fuck about th whole situation

When you fuck a president, behind the first ladies back. Do you not think she is going to be pissed like any woman scorned?

You think this should offer her some protection?

Both Bill and the woman he slept with, knew what they were doing

I have zero sympathy for either of them

When caught this is the reality they will face and yet you seem to want to shield one side here

Your argument is so warped its hilarious

Again knowing what Clinton did and if he was then destroyed. Would you have batted an eyelid or made an argument about his life being destroyed?

Or do you hold some unequal value here?


I'm not trying to shield either side.

That is what Hillary did when attacking and trying to destroy the women that slept with her husband.

She used her considerable power and influence against mostly powerless women.      

See what I mean?

To you is only about what Hilary did

Not the fact she found out her husband was fucking another woman

The world went against Bill on this, when they found out

Did you cry over this spilt milk and yet you want to defend a woman who jumped into bed with him fucking him?

Frankly again i do noit care who they all fuck

But your view to target Hilary here, when she was the victim to Bills infidelity, because she acted in anger.

Is not me defending her acts, but at least understanding how a woman scorned might act

The reality is you place more blame on hilary being a victim and reacting to knowing her husband was fucking another woman

You are basically ignoring how she felt and saying she basically has to suck it up

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:57 pm

phildidge wrote:
Maddog wrote:


I'm not trying to shield either side.

That is what Hillary did when attacking and trying to destroy the women that slept with her husband.

She used her considerable power and influence against mostly powerless women.      

See what I mean?

To you is only about what Hilary did

Not the fact she found out her husband was fucking another woman

The world went against Bill on this, when they found out

Did you cry over this spilt milk and yet you want to defend a woman who jumped into bed with him fucking him?

Frankly again i do noit care who they all fuck

But your view to target Hilary here, when she was the victim to Bills infidelity, because she acted in anger.

Is not me defending her acts, but at least understanding how a woman scorned might act

The reality is you place more blame on hilary being a victim and reacting to knowing her husband was fucking another woman

You are basically ignoring how she felt and saying she basically has to suck it up

She doesn't have to accept it.

But she doesn't get to use her power and influence to fuck over women that Bill was sleeping with, to protect Bill.

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Post by eddie on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:00 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:And I'd also argue that if you're making a decision that you know won't result in the greatest good for the greatest number of people, you can't possibly call it moral.


Watch me.

It's moral to vote for the person who you feel is the best person for the job.

Well that’s how I feel too but I don’t think you can call someone “immoral” for their voting choice.

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:01 pm

Maddog wrote:
phildidge wrote:

See what I mean?

To you is only about what Hilary did

Not the fact she found out her husband was fucking another woman

The world went against Bill on this, when they found out

Did you cry over this spilt milk and yet you want to defend a woman who jumped into bed with him fucking him?

Frankly again i do noit care who they all fuck

But your view to target Hilary here, when she was the victim to Bills infidelity, because she acted in anger.

Is not me defending her acts, but at least understanding how a woman scorned might act

The reality is you place more blame on hilary being a victim and reacting to knowing her husband was fucking another woman

You are basically ignoring how she felt and saying she basically has to suck it up

She doesn't have to accept it.

But she doesn't get to use her power and influence to fuck over women that Bill was sleeping with, to protect Bill.


Oh I see but the media has the power to fuck over a President, when he fucks around

I am sorry, but you seem to being arguing the most fucked up imbalanced view point here

Wnat to rethink your argument

If its wrong to fuck over people when they are unfaithful, why do you only make allowances on one of the parties here?

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:03 pm

"Of course, she’s not responsible for his wanderings. But as a fully vested member of Bill’s political operation, Hillary had as much interest in forcefully rebutting all allegations of sexual misconduct as he did.

Bill’s private affairs were never truly private because they always had potential political ramifications, and often directly involved his conduct in office. This is why he corrupted everyone around him who had, as the price of admission, to help him lie and cover up.

Hillary was always with the sisterhood, except when one of the sisters piped up about Bill having sex with her or grossly mistreating her, in which case Hillary was with the patriarchy — i.e., her powerful, entitled husband — all the way."

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:05 pm

phildidge wrote:
Maddog wrote:

She doesn't have to accept it.

But she doesn't get to use her power and influence to fuck over women that Bill was sleeping with, to protect Bill.


Oh I see but the media has the power to fuck over a President, when he fucks around

I am sorry, but you seem to being arguing the most fucked up imbalanced view point here

Wnat to rethink your argument

If its wrong to fuck over people when they are unfaithful, why do you only make allowances on one of the parties here?

Politicians are in a different class that the general public.

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:05 pm

eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:


Watch me.

It's moral to vote for the person who you feel is the best person for the job.

Well that’s how I feel too but I don’t think you can call someone “immoral” for their voting choice.


And that is how Hitler came to power Eddie, as the German people felt he was the best person for the job
Just as the Italians did with Mussolini
Maddog thinks its moral to vote for a person who they feel is the best person for the job and that is what the German people doid for the time
Maybe Maddog can explain the morality in this choice?

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:06 pm

"One of the procured was Paula Jones. When she came forward, she was abused as trailer-park trash. Even though her sexual harassment suit was dubious, her story of a gross come-on by Clinton in a hotel room was credible, and she told numerous people about it at the time.

Hillary apparently didn’t spare a moment’s thought why her husband the governor would have wanted a private meeting with a 24-year-old state employee. She interviewed superlawyer Bob Bennett to handle the case and insisted on a hard-line defense. Bennett spread rumors of nude pictures of Jones and had another lawyer subpoena men to try to find evidence of Jones’ alleged promiscuity."

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:07 pm

Maddog wrote:
phildidge wrote:


Oh I see but the media has the power to fuck over a President, when he fucks around

I am sorry, but you seem to being arguing the most fucked up imbalanced view point here

Wnat to rethink your argument

If its wrong to fuck over people when they are unfaithful, why do you only make allowances on one of the parties here?

Politicians are in a different class that the general public.


So you do not believe in equality then?

You think its fair game to destroy people if they hold a certain positon in life?
I would love for you to explain the morality on this, because that you place such an emphasis on morality?

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:07 pm

phildidge wrote:
eddie wrote:

Well that’s how I feel too but I don’t think you can call someone “immoral” for their voting choice.


And that is how Hitler came to power Eddie, as the German people felt he was the best person for the job
Just as the Italians did with Mussolini
Maddog thinks its moral to vote for a person who they feel is the best person for the job and that is what the German people doid for the time
Maybe Maddog can explain the morality in this choice?

What is the moral way to vote, old wise one?

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:09 pm

Maddog wrote:
phildidge wrote:


Oh I see but the media has the power to fuck over a President, when he fucks around

I am sorry, but you seem to being arguing the most fucked up imbalanced view point here

Wnat to rethink your argument

If its wrong to fuck over people when they are unfaithful, why do you only make allowances on one of the parties here?

Politicians are in a different class that the general public.


Are they? Or have you decided they are?

So your whole argument falls down

That you do not mind people being destroyed when its based on a subjective standard that you hold?
Correct?

So you really are not bothered about people being destroyed based on status. But to use tvictims to make just about the most pettiest and childish argument against a scorned woman


Last edited by phildidge on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:10 pm

phildidge wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Politicians are in a different class that the general public.


So you do not believe in equality then?

You think its fair game to destroy people if they hold a certain positon in life?
I would love for you to explain the morality on this, because that you place such an emphasis on morality?

The rule for anyone in the public sphere are much different. Courts have ruled that time and time again.

That's why many people stay out of politics. They lose the privacy and some of the rights they enjoy as citizens.

It's why we treat the families of politicians differently than the politician themselves.

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Post by Maddog on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:11 pm

phildidge wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Politicians are in a different class that the general public.


Are they? Or have you decided they are?
So your whole argument falls down
That you do not mind people being destroyed when its based on a subjective standard that you hold?
Correct
So you really are not bothered about people being destroyed but to use them as victims to make just about the most pettiest and childish argument against a scorned woman

The courts have.

Good night princess.


You're not much fun when you get worked up like this. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:12 pm

Maddog wrote:
phildidge wrote:


So you do not believe in equality then?

You think its fair game to destroy people if they hold a certain positon in life?
I would love for you to explain the morality on this, because that you place such an emphasis on morality?

The rule for anyone in the public sphere are much different. Courts have ruled that time and time again.

That's why many people stay out of politics. They lose the privacy and some of the rights they enjoy as citizens.

It's why we treat the families of politicians differently than the politician themselves.  


What rule and who decided this?

No such court rules this way

Courts rule on the law

You are simple injecting bullshit and trying to decide an inequality stance based on your own perverse views

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:13 pm

Maddog wrote:
phildidge wrote:


Are they? Or have you decided they are?
So your whole argument falls down
That you do not mind people being destroyed when its based on a subjective standard that you hold?
Correct
So you really are not bothered about people being destroyed but to use them as victims to make just about the most pettiest and childish argument against a scorned woman

The courts have.

Good night princess.


You're not much fun when you get worked up like this. Rolling Eyes


I am not the one worked up, when you call me a princess buddy

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:17 pm

Maddog wrote:
phildidge wrote:


And that is how Hitler came to power Eddie, as the German people felt he was the best person for the job
Just as the Italians did with Mussolini
Maddog thinks its moral to vote for a person who they feel is the best person for the job and that is what the German people doid for the time
Maybe Maddog can explain the morality in this choice?

What is the moral way to vote, old wise one?


A vote that is based on "amoral" politics

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Post by JulesV on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:18 pm

Jules wrote:Many other things apart from tactical voting - affect democracy.
A monetary advantage helps. In theory it shouldn't cos there's a limit to how much can be donated to a party for an election campaign. The MP's get around this rule in various ways.

It galling when the donations come from people living outside the country, too.

The gov't also occasionally changes county boundaries - in a seemingly  random way - at least it looks random to my layman eyes. What is tactical voting and why is it bad for democracy? - Page 3 2190311264

I have quoted my own post here, to give some examples of how the political parties themselves damage democracy.  

I don't want to go offtopic but in a thread about how democracy gets damaged, the true culprits should be blamed, not the voters.

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:24 pm

Jules wrote:
Jules wrote:Many other things apart from tactical voting - affect democracy.
A monetary advantage helps. In theory it shouldn't cos there's a limit to how much can be donated to a party for an election campaign. The MP's get around this rule in various ways.

It galling when the donations come from people living outside the country, too.

The gov't also occasionally changes county boundaries - in a seemingly  random way - at least it looks random to my layman eyes. What is tactical voting and why is it bad for democracy? - Page 3 2190311264

I have quoted my own post here, to give some examples of how the political parties themselves damage democracy.  

I don't want to go offtopic but in a thread about how democracy gets damaged, the true culprits should be blamed, not the voters.


Those are your perceptions of what is wrong with democracy

What is wrong with democracy is only one issue

When hate takes hold as a majority

That is the only downfall of democracy and where it then leads to authoritarianism

People have argued morality here and never define this, because its so subjective

Where nations go wrong as when they never work togewther on important issues

One things they are morally better than the other

Hate is wrong and why I will never vote now for Labour or Tory

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Post by JulesV on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:27 pm

So here are three examples of politicians trying to cheat the democratic process:

1. The RW parties are now infighting amongst themselves and Farage is angrily threatening to report Boris for illegal activities and corruption, as peerages are being offered to rivals to stand down. Shocked Shocked https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-nigel-farage-threatens-20885677#ICID=Android_TMNewsApp_AppShare

2. The electoral commission ruled that Boris had overspent during the EU referendum after he funnelled £675,000 through to another political party to avoid spending limits". https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/02/boris-johnson-vote-leave-overspend-eu-referendum-labour-mp-ian-lucas

3. There is also the issue of possible Russian interference. Not yet proven but investigations are pending.

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Post by JulesV on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:31 pm

phildidge wrote:

What is wrong with democracy is only one issue

Hate is wrong and why I will never vote now for Labour or Tory
I hear you, Didge. Cool

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:33 pm

Jules wrote:So here are three examples of politicians trying to cheat the democratic process:

1. The RW parties are now infighting amongst themselves and Farage is angrily threatening to report Boris for illegal activities and corruption, as peerages are being offered to rivals to stand down. Shocked  Shocked  https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-nigel-farage-threatens-20885677#ICID=Android_TMNewsApp_AppShare

2. The electoral commission ruled that Boris had overspent during the EU referendum after he funnelled £675,000  through to another political party to avoid spending limits". https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/02/boris-johnson-vote-leave-overspend-eu-referendum-labour-mp-ian-lucas

3. There is also the issue of possible Russian interference. Not yet proven but investigations are pending.


You mean you bias against right wing, correct?

How about Labour being under investigation for institutional antisemitism

Or how aboyt even today this?

https://order-order.com/2019/11/15/labour-candidate-reported-police-claimed-false-declaration/

Or this?

https://order-order.com/2019/11/15/labours-candidate-claims-voted-bnp-said-wants-rip-israel/

Or this?

https://order-order.com/2019/11/15/labour-candidates-campaign-reported-police-office-bust/

If you are going to be fair, then do not be biasd as you are here

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Post by Thorin on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:34 pm

Jules wrote:
phildidge wrote:

What is wrong with democracy is only one issue

Hate is wrong and why I will never vote now for Labour or Tory
I hear you, Didge. Cool


No worries Jules

I am off to bed

Night and all the best

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Post by JulesV on Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:58 pm

Same here.
Btw I was leaving it up to you to provide examples of LW politicians cheating. Smile
Night Didge.

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Post by 'Wolfie on Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:19 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It's immoral to not vote for the person that you think will  e the best person for the job.  

You have to take the action that results in the greatest good for the greatest number of people, no?
Razz

Nope...

Maddog will vote for whomever Maddog considers to be the best option to fit Maddog's far-right 'free markets'/"beggar thy neighbour"/'greed is good' agenda..

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Post by 'Wolfie on Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:26 am

eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:


Watch me.

It's moral to vote for the person who you feel is the best person for the job.

Well that’s how I feel too but I don’t think you can call someone “immoral” for their voting choice.
Cool

No surprise to see DopeyDawg repeatedly misusing the term "(im)moral" on here...

His Dopeyness is far and away the 'best' perpetrator at abusing, misusing and butchering the English language on NF, merely to bolster his usual greed-fuelled corporatist ideals..

Whatever helps him 'sleep better at night'.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:16 am

eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:And I'd also argue that if you're making a decision that you know won't result in the greatest good for the greatest number of people, you can't possibly call it moral.


Watch me.

It's moral to vote for the person who you feel is the best person for the job.

Well that’s how I feel too but I don’t think you can call someone “immoral” for their voting choice.

If you vote for someone who clearly intends to enact immoral policies, you are immoral and I will call you that.

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Post by 'Wolfie on Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:52 am

Arrow

Morality and "libertarianism" are mutually exclusive...

Maddog is living evidence of that sad little fact..

Now, be honest --  has anyone here ever met a 'moral' libertarian (Or any kind of self-serving corporatist type..). 

Putting 'capital'/finance/big bosses "head and shoulders" before and above looking after the environment, the poor, the crippled and damaged, the average workers, will never have good outcomes..

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Post by Maddog on Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:22 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:

Well that’s how I feel too but I don’t think you can call someone “immoral” for their voting choice.

If you vote for someone who clearly intends to enact immoral policies, you are immoral and I will call you that.

Ow we have to define moral and immoral policies. Wink

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Post by eddie on Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:51 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:And I'd also argue that if you're making a decision that you know won't result in the greatest good for the greatest number of people, you can't possibly call it moral.


Watch me.

It's moral to vote for the person who you feel is the best person for the job.

Well that’s how I feel too but I don’t think you can call someone “immoral” for their voting choice.

If you vote for someone who clearly intends to enact immoral policies, you are immoral and I will call you that.


Well obviously, but look at Tony Blair! He was voted in and turned out to be an immoral prick but no one could have known.

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:28 pm

phildidge wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Try using Google. There are plenty of articles that explain why she is so disliked and touch on her behavior that creates that extreme dislike.  

Explain to me why she should be held accountable for the sexual abuses of her husband?

The dislikes of her are based on her being loyal to her husband

I have never understood this.

Have you been faithful?

The vast majority of people have not been faithful in the US

She has been punished for simple stikcing by the person she loves

Is oit wrong to still love someone, when they abused your love?

Are now we to judge how she should act on this?

In her position we would all act different, but we are not her and yet the nation acts as if they can decide

It shows they have no clue of love

Gotta say, I think you're right on. How can one fault her for taking the high road and making her marriage work. She's doing what she wants, and as you say about voting, Red...let the chips fall as they may. It's her personal choice, about her life.

I have no sympathy for the 'enabler' theory. First, it's one of those touchy-feely, psychobabble theories. Second, enable-checking is only meaningful where there is nothing valuable in the offing. If your boyfriend is a drunk, and you are buying liquor for him, there's nothing redeeming about that. But, Hilary has been working to save her marriage. and to her it is valuable. The saving grace is that she has also been rehabilitative in her efforts. I bet Bill won't wander off again.

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