This is why debate is stifled...

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Post by eddie on Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:30 pm

It all depends upon who posts the story.

Work it out

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Post by Ben Reilly on Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:33 pm

That's not just a NewsFix problem, that's a pretty much entire-internet problem.

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Post by eddie on Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:54 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:That's not just a NewsFix problem, that's a pretty much entire-internet problem.

Then it still sucks.
And it kills debate.

And it kills being open-minded

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Post by Maddog on Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:57 pm

eddie wrote:It all depends upon who posts the story.

Work it out  

Yup, or the source.


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Post by eddie on Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:04 pm

Maddog wrote:
eddie wrote:It all depends upon who posts the story.

Work it out  

Yup, or the source.


Oh definitely. Which is pretty much the same thing really and also why I don't tend to rely on articles or media outlets.

Pinch of salt...in most cases Hot air until I am convinced otherwise.

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Post by eddie on Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:46 pm

Assumption: that's what kills debate

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:18 am


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Post by Andy on Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:00 am

There are some that never start threads, but wait, then take the juxtaposed view.
There are others who start 100's of threads, virally all on the same topic.

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Post by nicko on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:26 am

Bit like you and Lurker then ! But then your too thick to realise it. Your post proves it!
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Post by Andy on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:34 am

How many threads have I started ?
How many have you started?
Go compare.

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Post by nicko on Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:44 pm

When I joined this Forum Imentioned that I rarely start posts ,I prefer to comment on them . The threads you start are either near the knuckle or rabid outbursts of abuse !
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Post by Andy on Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:57 pm

So thread creation lies largely with the brilliant Lurker, Quill and myself with interesting a varied posts, and Dodge with Corbyn posts.
Therein lies the problem of diminishing posts and posters.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:58 pm

nicko wrote:When I joined this Forum Imentioned that I rarely start posts ,I prefer to comment on them . The threads you start are either near the knuckle or rabid outbursts of abuse !

I don't think that's fair, nick. Andy is involved and interested, and that's what makes him post. Sometimes his sense of humor comes into play--eg, his limericks--other times he is serious, sometimes, again, he is angered by events. But he's always active and sharp of mind.

By the same token, his sharp wit can sometimes anger others...and that's where you come in. I know you like to play the politics of the forum, but don't be consumed by it.

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Post by nicko on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:21 pm

I don't play Politics Quill ,I just call out rabid left wingers,and answer them as they deserve to be answered ,that,s all !
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Post by eddie on Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:04 pm

That's the problem actually. People place themselves into political camps and then won't listen to the other side.

It's dumb.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:11 pm

People here (and all over the internet) decide that if someone's on the "other side," they're automatically incorrect, lying, evil, ugly and stinky.

It's a real problem, I wish the right-wingers hadn't started it Twisted Evil This is why debate is stifled... 2984306523 This is why debate is stifled... 4214183177

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Post by eddie on Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:12 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:People here (and all over the internet) decide that if someone's on the "other side," they're automatically incorrect, lying, evil, ugly and stinky.

It's a real problem, I wish the right-wingers hadn't started it Twisted Evil This is why debate is stifled... 2984306523 This is why debate is stifled... 4214183177


I know your last line was a joke but it is a real problem.

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Post by JulesV on Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:26 pm

In forums 'debate' is usually used as a golden opportunity to exchange unpleasantries. That's just the way it is.

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Post by Maddog on Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:42 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:People here (and all over the internet) decide that if someone's on the "other side," they're automatically incorrect, lying, evil, ugly and stinky.

It's a real problem, I wish the right-wingers hadn't started it Twisted Evil This is why debate is stifled... 2984306523 This is why debate is stifled... 4214183177

What would happen if people could debate with attributing "wings" to positions.

Just state what you support or don't, regardless of what "wing" you think supports it.

You know, like I do. Cool

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Post by eddie on Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:43 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:People here (and all over the internet) decide that if someone's on the "other side," they're automatically incorrect, lying, evil, ugly and stinky.

It's a real problem, I wish the right-wingers hadn't started it Twisted Evil This is why debate is stifled... 2984306523 This is why debate is stifled... 4214183177

What would happen if people could debate with attributing "wings" to positions.

Just state what you support or don't, regardless of what "wing" you think supports it.

You know, like I do. Cool  

Amen! Me too!!

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:58 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:People here (and all over the internet) decide that if someone's on the "other side," they're automatically incorrect, lying, evil, ugly and stinky.

It's a real problem, I wish the right-wingers hadn't started it Twisted Evil This is why debate is stifled... 2984306523 This is why debate is stifled... 4214183177

What would happen if people could debate with attributing "wings" to positions.

Just state what you support or don't, regardless of what "wing" you think supports it.

You know, like I do. Cool  

Rolling Eyes lol!

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Post by Maddog on Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:40 pm

eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

What would happen if people could debate with attributing "wings" to positions.

Just state what you support or don't, regardless of what "wing" you think supports it.

You know, like I do. Cool  

Amen! Me too!!

This is why debate is stifled... Embar11

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:58 pm

False equivalency.

One is the greatest president we ever had, whose only sin was his skin color.

The other the most selfish and criminal president we've ever had, whose only virtue is he sleeps late in the morning.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:34 am

eddie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:People here (and all over the internet) decide that if someone's on the "other side," they're automatically incorrect, lying, evil, ugly and stinky.

It's a real problem, I wish the right-wingers hadn't started it Twisted Evil This is why debate is stifled... 2984306523 This is why debate is stifled... 4214183177


I know your last line was a joke but it is a real problem.

Actually, it was half-serious. Back in the early '90s, the Republicans set out to destroy Bill Clinton at the same time Fox News became much more angry and a number of books by right-wingers vilifying the left came out, with titles like "Godless," "Treason," etc.

Then they started saying stuff like, because a few companies had their employees saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas," we were trying to abolish their religion. It's a whole stupid thing.


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Post by Maddog on Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:38 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:


I know your last line was a joke but it is a real problem.

Actually, it was half-serious. Back in the early '90s, the Republicans set out to destroy Bill Clinton at the same time Fox News became much more angry and a number of books by right-wingers vilifying the left came out, with titles like "Godless," "Treason," etc.

Then they started saying stuff like, because a few companies had their employees saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas," we were trying to abolish their religion. It's a whole stupid thing.


Both sides do it.

They do it on this forum, and they do it everywhere else.

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Post by 'Wolfie on Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:21 am

eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:
What would happen if people could debate with attributing "wings" to positions.

Just state what you support or don't, regardless of what "wing" you think supports it.

You know, like I do. Cool  

Amen! Me too!!
.
.
This is why debate is stifled... 3489511464

Self delusion..      Doubled..

This is why debate is stifled... 3489511464

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:51 am

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:


I know your last line was a joke but it is a real problem.

Actually, it was half-serious. Back in the early '90s, the Republicans set out to destroy Bill Clinton at the same time Fox News became much more angry and a number of books by right-wingers vilifying the left came out, with titles like "Godless," "Treason," etc.

Then they started saying stuff like, because a few companies had their employees saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas," we were trying to abolish their religion. It's a whole stupid thing.


Both sides do it.

They do it on this forum, and they do it everywhere else.

"Both sides do it" is the most lazy-brained argument on the 'net. Everyone here is stupider for having been subjected to it.

You get zero points. And may God have mercy on your soul.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:06 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Both sides do it.

They do it on this forum, and they do it everywhere else.

"Both sides do it" is the most lazy-brained argument on the 'net. Everyone here is stupider for having been subjected to it.

You get zero points. And may God have mercy on your soul.

I don't need points from someone on one of the sides doing it. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:35 am

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:

Actually, it was half-serious. Back in the early '90s, the Republicans set out to destroy Bill Clinton at the same time Fox News became much more angry and a number of books by right-wingers vilifying the left came out, with titles like "Godless," "Treason," etc.

Then they started saying stuff like, because a few companies had their employees saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas," we were trying to abolish their religion. It's a whole stupid thing.


That's the lie that covers their

Both sides do it.

They do it on this forum, and they do it everywhere else.

That's the lie that covers all their other lies.  Democrats have no reason to lie.  They  represent the common interest.

Republicans represent the special interests, and need to conceal that fact from the common pool of voters.  How would it look to say, I represent the rich and privileged 1%, yet I am asking for your vote?  Bad narrative...anyone can see.

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Post by Fred Moletrousers on Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:00 am

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

That's the lie that covers their

Both sides do it.

They do it on this forum, and they do it everywhere else.

That's the lie that covers all their other lies.  Democrats have no reason to lie.  They  represent the common interest.

Republicans represent the special interests, and need to conceal that fact from the common pool of voters.  How would it look to say, I represent the rich and privileged 1%, yet I am asking for your vote?  Bad narrative...anyone can see.

All politicians have a reason to lie, Quill, be it either ambition or an attempt to cover up something in their past.
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Post by gelico on Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:47 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

That's the lie that covers their

Both sides do it.

They do it on this forum, and they do it everywhere else.

That's the lie that covers all their other lies.  Democrats have no reason to lie.  They  represent the common interest.

Republicans represent the special interests, and need to conceal that fact from the common pool of voters.  How would it look to say, I represent the rich and privileged 1%, yet I am asking for your vote?  Bad narrative...anyone can see.


AOC?



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Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:47 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

That's the lie that covers all their other lies.  Democrats have no reason to lie.  They  represent the common interest.

Republicans represent the special interests, and need to conceal that fact from the common pool of voters.  How would it look to say, I represent the rich and privileged 1%, yet I am asking for your vote?  Bad narrative...anyone can see.

All politicians have a reason to lie, Quill, be it either ambition or an attempt to cover up something in their past.

Nonsense. Those who are helping the people have nothing to lie about. Those who are helping special interests have everything to lie about. It's about votes.

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Post by Thorin on Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:26 pm

gelico wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

That's the lie that covers all their other lies.  Democrats have no reason to lie.  They  represent the common interest.

Republicans represent the special interests, and need to conceal that fact from the common pool of voters.  How would it look to say, I represent the rich and privileged 1%, yet I am asking for your vote?  Bad narrative...anyone can see.


AOC?




Spot on Gelico


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Post by Thorin on Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:27 pm

phildidge wrote:
gelico wrote:


AOC?




Spot on Gelico



https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/11/elizabeth-warren-punts-dna-test-native-american-an/

Or How about Elizabeth Warren?

As Fred says all Politicians often lie. The question is finding the very minor few honest ones

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Post by Fred Moletrousers on Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:35 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:

All politicians have a reason to lie, Quill, be it either ambition or an attempt to cover up something in their past.

Nonsense.  Those who are helping the people have nothing to lie about.  Those who are helping special interests have everything to lie about.  It's about votes.

"I did NOT have sexual relations with that woman..." Now, just which politician said that....

Of course it's about votes. But it is NOT nonsense to say that all politicians have a reason to lie, be it either ambition or cover up...it is your assertion that "those who are helping  the people have nothing to lie about" that is patent nonsense.

It you are seriously trying to convince me that Democrats in the USA never lie when trying to get themselves elected to office or when their mistakes or even criminal acts have been uncovered,  be it when contesting the mayoralty of a one-horse town with a population of a few hundred or the presidency of the country - then, frankly, I believe that you are seriously deluded.
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Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:54 pm

Fred M. wrote:"I did NOT have sexual relations with that woman..." Now, just which politician said that....

That's a personal matter, of no impact on the state.  Fucking around on your wife is of no real interest to the voters.

What is of interest to the state is, President Clinton balanced the budget for the first time since before WWII.  He left $286-billion in the cash register as he walked out the door.

Of course, Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld quickly used up that money in a useless war, of which Cheney was a war profiteer.  What was the name of Cheney's company...Bilgewater or sump'n?  By October 2008 we were on the brink of a second Great Depression, but Cheney's pockets were loaded.  That's Republican special interests being served, at a cost to the hapless general interest.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/making-sense-of-the-blackwater-connection/

Fortunately, Obama cured the situation, but not easily.  He turned things around.  It was the start of the upward economic climb that we enjoy today. What is it they say about the US parties: Republicans always make messes, which Democrats have to clean up.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:22 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Nonsense.  Those who are helping the people have nothing to lie about.  Those who are helping special interests have everything to lie about.  It's about votes.

"I did NOT have sexual relations with that woman..." Now, just which politician said that....

Of course it's about votes. But it is NOT nonsense to say that all politicians have a reason to lie, be it either ambition or cover up...it is your assertion that "those who are helping  the people have nothing to lie about" that is patent nonsense.

It you are seriously trying to convince me that Democrats in the USA never lie when trying to get themselves elected to office or when their mistakes or even criminal acts have been uncovered,  be it when contesting the mayoralty of a one-horse town with a population of a few hundred or the presidency of the country - then, frankly, I believe that you are seriously deluded.

He's deluded.

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Post by Fred Moletrousers on Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:36 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Fred M. wrote:"I did NOT have sexual relations with that woman..." Now, just which politician said that....

That's a personal matter, of no impact on the state.  Fucking around on your wife is of no real interest to the voters.

What is of interest to the state is, President Clinton balanced the budget for the first time since before WWII.  He left $286-billion in the cash register as he walked out the door.

Of course, Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld quickly used up that money in a useless war, of which Cheney was a war profiteer.  What was the name of Cheney's company...Bilgewater or sump'n?  By October 2008 we were on the brink of a second Great Depression, but Cheney's pockets were loaded.  That's Republican special interests being served, at a cost to the hapless general interest.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/making-sense-of-the-blackwater-connection/

Fortunately, Obama cured the situation, but not easily.  He turned things around.  It was the start of the upward economic climb that we enjoy today.  What is it they say about the US parties: Republicans always make messes, which Democrats have to clean up.

I am not doubting the good that Clinton (and Obama for that matter) may have done for the nation, and, for the record, I quite liked and respected both of them.

But he lied, and his lie falls into my category of attempting a cynical cover-up - of his wrongdoing at the expense of his former employee's reputation. And it may well have been "just a personal matter" and "fucking around on his wife" but, by God, the Republicans milked it for all that it was worth in exactly the same way that the Democrats are milking Trump's apparently sordid background for their own political purposes.

I had you down as the least likely candidate in this place for the Moletrousers Prize for Naive Thought, but on this issue I have to say that I am astounded that anyone can honestly believe that one bunch of politicians are at the pinnacle of moral rectitude while another are all destined for an eternity of suffering in the fires of hell.
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Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:01 pm

Fred M. wrote:I am not doubting the good that Clinton (and Obama for that matter) may have done for the nation, and, for the record, I quite liked and respected both of them.

But he lied, and his lie falls into my category of attempting a cynical cover-up - of his wrongdoing at the expense of his former employee's reputation. And it may well have been "just a personal matter" and "fucking around on his wife" but, by God, the Republicans milked it for all that it was worth in exactly the same way that the Democrats are milking Trump's apparently sordid background for their own political purposes.

It's a false equivalency. Clinton was cheating on his wife; Trump is organized crime, cheating on his country by conspiring with the Russians.

I'll be kind and let you withdraw Trump. Compare Obama with Cheney...a fairer example of conservatism at work. One of my primary arguments is that the left works for the general interest, while the right works for special interests.

Nowhere is this more clearly seen than in a comparison of their first moves in office. While cleaning up the economic mess left by the Republicans, Obama went right to work trying to deliver meaningful services: healthcare. He was focused on the general interest.

Contrast this with Cheney, who went right to work starting a costly war, in which the wealthy and privileged got wealthier and more privileged. Cheney was focused on the special interests.

If you like, we’ll include Trump. What did he accomplish, besides fooking over healthcare? That’s right…a massive tax cut for corporations, which was cashed in through buy-backs of the rich. Trump was focused on the special interests as well.

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Post by eddie on Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:23 pm

'Wolfie wrote:
eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:
What would happen if people could debate with attributing "wings" to positions.

Just state what you support or don't, regardless of what "wing" you think supports it.

You know, like I do. Cool  

Amen! Me too!!
.
.
This is why debate is stifled... 3489511464

Self delusion..      Doubled..

This is why debate is stifled... 3489511464

Well...see...I make up my mind based on reasoning and common sense  Mostly, I am pretty LW but I won't support a stupid LW idea simply because it's LW.
So, no self delusion here my friend.

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Post by nicko on Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:31 pm

+1
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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:42 pm

I honestly don't understand anybody who can support their political party (or their country, for that matter) no matter what it does. It's the stupidest thing.

If your thinking and beliefs guide you toward aligning with a certain party, that's fine. If that party then screws the pooch, don't say the pooch was asking for it. Criticize the party, leave it if you're that disgusted, but don't defend bad policies or behavior.

Just an aside: I think the point Quill's trying to make is that voters should be more outraged by politicians' lies to cover up misdeeds that harm the nation than by politicians' lies to cover up misdeeds in their personal lives, and I agree.

Clinton's lies to cover up his affair had no real effect on me or any other American citizen (besides Monica Lewinsky, Hilary Clinton and Chelsea Clinton). Neither did Trump's lies to cover up his affairs, so I don't really care about them either, other than to point out the hypocrisy of Republican Trump supporters who claim to value the family and marriage (which they do loudly and often).

Trump's lies to cover up the damage he's done to America do affect me and the American people, and those lies I do care about.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:58 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:I honestly don't understand anybody who can support their political party (or their country, for that matter) no matter what it does. It's the stupidest thing.

If your thinking and beliefs guide you toward aligning with a certain party, that's fine. If that party then screws the pooch, don't say the pooch was asking for it. Criticize the party, leave it if you're that disgusted, but don't defend bad policies or behavior.

Just an aside: I think the point Quill's trying to make is that voters should be more outraged by politicians' lies to cover up misdeeds that harm the nation than by politicians' lies to cover up misdeeds in their personal lives, and I agree.

Clinton's lies to cover up his affair had no real effect on me or any other American citizen (besides Monica Lewinsky, Hilary Clinton and Chelsea Clinton). Neither did Trump's lies to cover up his affairs, so I don't really care about them either, other than to point out the hypocrisy of Republican Trump supporters who claim to value the family and marriage (which they do loudly and often).

Trump's lies to cover up the damage he's done to America do affect me and the American people, and those lies I do care about.

Well stated. Building false equivalencies is something RW'ers do often. They have to...they are rarely working on behalf of the general pool of voters. Yet they want votes. What to do? Lie to the voters.

To point out the affair about Clinton/Lewinsky is embarrassing, but it is not the kind of lie I mean. It's a lie to his wife, not a lie to the voters. It might lose him some respect, but not necessarily votes. I think you saw that, with much of the Democrats staying with him.

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Post by eddie on Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:24 pm

“To point out the affair about Clinton/Lewinsky is embarrassing, but it is not the kind of lie I mean. It's a lie to his wife, not a lie to the voters. It might lose him some respect, but not necessarily votes”

It would matter to me. I don’t like people who lie to their families. It means they can lie to just about anyone.
A lie is a lie.

Don’t white wash it.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:39 pm

eddie wrote:“To point out the affair about Clinton/Lewinsky is embarrassing, but it is not the kind of lie I mean. It's a lie to his wife, not a lie to the voters. It might lose him some respect, but not necessarily votes”

It would matter to me. I don’t like people who lie to their families. It means they can lie to just about anyone.
A lie is a lie.

Don’t white wash it.  

Precisely.  In the realm of "family" a lie about infidelity is important.  In the political realm, much less so.  In the wake of the Bill Clinton infidelity, American voters were not that bothered.  Clinton retained high favorability ratings on a steady basis:

This is why debate is stifled... Pgrx6libduardcwevxqh8a

Bill Clinton had a rating of 73% in 1999, and ended his term with a 66%.

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Post by Maddog on Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:14 am

eddie wrote:“To point out the affair about Clinton/Lewinsky is embarrassing, but it is not the kind of lie I mean. It's a lie to his wife, not a lie to the voters. It might lose him some respect, but not necessarily votes”

It would matter to me. I don’t like people who lie to their families. It means they can lie to just about anyone.
A lie is a lie.

Don’t white wash it.  

It was a lie, under oath, in a civil court case in regards to a pattern of sexual abuse of other women.

He didn't get the name Slick Willy because he was honest and forthright.

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Post by Maddog on Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:16 am

Ben Reilly wrote:I honestly don't understand anybody who can support their political party (or their country, for that matter) no matter what it does. It's the stupidest thing.

If your thinking and beliefs guide you toward aligning with a certain party, that's fine. If that party then screws the pooch, don't say the pooch was asking for it. Criticize the party, leave it if you're that disgusted, but don't defend bad policies or behavior.

Just an aside: I think the point Quill's trying to make is that voters should be more outraged by politicians' lies to cover up misdeeds that harm the nation than by politicians' lies to cover up misdeeds in their personal lives, and I agree.

Clinton's lies to cover up his affair had no real effect on me or any other American citizen (besides Monica Lewinsky, Hilary Clinton and Chelsea Clinton). Neither did Trump's lies to cover up his affairs, so I don't really care about them either, other than to point out the hypocrisy of Republican Trump supporters who claim to value the family and marriage (which they do loudly and often).

Trump's lies to cover up the damage he's done to America do affect me and the American people, and those lies I do care about.

His lie was perjury in a court case.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:58 am

Sleep America slept.

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Post by JulesV on Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:41 am

Do you mean sleep-walking, Quill? As in people being dozy?

"They sleepwalked their way into disaster."  is a phrase I sometimes see in political commentaries. Smile

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Post by JulesV on Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:48 am

Original Quill wrote: ...
Precisely.  In the realm of "family" a lie about infidelity is important.  In the political realm, much less so.  In the wake of the Bill Clinton infidelity, American voters were not that bothered. …...
.

Political power is a strong aphrodisiac to women which is why prime ministers and presidents, kings and princes are at such high risk of committing infidelity. Smile

Clearly not all of them have the willpower and moral rectitude to resist the charms of the many attractive, forward women who are always buzzing around them.

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