Conservatism is no more

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Conservatism is no more Empty Conservatism is no more

Post by Original Quill on Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:33 am

It once stood for minimal government, lower debt and deficit, zero regulation and policing the world. Under Trump, we have government by omniscient emergency, the highest debt and deficit in history, rampant tariffs and withdrawal from even associating with the world...let alone being the police. We also seem to be run by the Kremlin, once the great foe of conservatives.

Conservatives are without meaning. They no longer have any cause or purpose. All conservatism means anymore is kissing a certain psychotic's ass. Indeed, conservatism is dead.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Conservatism is no more Empty Re: Conservatism is no more

Post by Maddog on Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:11 pm

Original Quill wrote:It once stood for minimal government, lower debt and deficit, zero regulation and policing the world.  Under Trump, we have government by omniscient emergency, the highest debt and deficit in history, rampant tariffs and withdrawal from even associating with the world...let alone being the police.  We also seem to be run by the Kremlin, once the great foe of conservatives.

Conservatives are without meaning.  They no longer have any cause or purpose.  All conservatism means anymore is kissing a certain psychotic's ass.  Indeed, conservatism is dead.

Conservatism never stood for policing the world. That would be neoconservatism.

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pa·ter·nal·ism

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The policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest.
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Conservatism is no more Empty Re: Conservatism is no more

Post by Original Quill on Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:23 pm

Well, I take neo-conservatism to mean conservatism. Advanced by Professor Leo Strauss, University of Chicago, neoconservatism was a RW response to the increasingly pacifist foreign policy of the Democratic Party, and the growing New Left and counterculture. Neoconservatives typically advocate the promotion of democracy and American national interest in international affairs, including peace through strength (by means of military force), and are known for espousing disdain for communism and for political radicalism.

It is the peace through strength that brings conservatives and neoconservatives into frequent conflicts. So far from bringing real peace, they are frequently called upon to test their strength. Or, they feel they must continually show off their strength. They brought the war in Iraq under false pretenses...all of their own doing.

Trump is neither conservative nor neoconservative, which is my point. Trump has taken over the Republican Party, and it now bears his brand. Trump's brand is diametrically opposed to the old.

Republicans cannot go back to the old values...not after they have condemned and abandoned them. To try is to make them a political joke. More important, they risk alienating the base, which has glued itself to Trump. The old Republican now has to defend the new values of increased debt and deficits, expanded government for white nationalist causes, and isolation with military build up.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Conservatism is no more Empty Re: Conservatism is no more

Post by Maddog on Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:54 pm

Original Quill wrote:Well, I take neo-conservatism to mean conservatism.  Advanced by Professor Leo Strauss, University of Chicago,  neoconservatism was a RW response to the increasingly pacifist foreign policy of the Democratic Party, and the growing New Left and counterculture.  Neoconservatives typically advocate the promotion of democracy and American national interest in international affairs, including peace through strength (by means of military force), and are known for espousing disdain for communism and for political radicalism.

It is the peace through strength that brings conservatives and neoconservatives into frequent conflicts.  So far from bringing real peace, they are frequently called upon to test their strength.  Or, they feel they must continually show off their strength.  They brought the war in Iraq under false pretenses...all of their own doing.

Trump is neither conservative nor neoconservative, which is my point.  Trump has taken over the Republican Party, and it now bears his brand.  Trump's brand is diametrically opposed to the old.

Republicans cannot go back to the old values...not after they have condemned and abandoned them.  To try is to make them a political joke.  More important, they risk alienating the base, which has glued itself to Trump.  The old Republican now has to defend the new values of increased debt and deficits, expanded government for white nationalist causes, and isolation with military build up.

Neo conservativism is a new twist.

The hint is in the "neo" part. tongue

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The policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest.
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Conservatism is no more Empty Re: Conservatism is no more

Post by Maddog on Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:55 pm

Original Quill wrote:Well, I take neo-conservatism to mean conservatism.  Advanced by Professor Leo Strauss, University of Chicago,  neoconservatism was a RW response to the increasingly pacifist foreign policy of the Democratic Party, and the growing New Left and counterculture.  Neoconservatives typically advocate the promotion of democracy and American national interest in international affairs, including peace through strength (by means of military force), and are known for espousing disdain for communism and for political radicalism.

It is the peace through strength that brings conservatives and neoconservatives into frequent conflicts.  So far from bringing real peace, they are frequently called upon to test their strength.  Or, they feel they must continually show off their strength.  They brought the war in Iraq under false pretenses...all of their own doing.

Trump is neither conservative nor neoconservative, which is my point.  Trump has taken over the Republican Party, and it now bears his brand.  Trump's brand is diametrically opposed to the old.

Republicans cannot go back to the old values...not after they have condemned and abandoned them.  To try is to make them a political joke.  More important, they risk alienating the base, which has glued itself to Trump.  The old Republican now has to defend the new values of increased debt and deficits, expanded government for white nationalist causes, and isolation with military build up.

Trump is more of a populist and a paleo conservative.

Paleoconservatives support restrictions on immigration, decentralization, trade tariffs and protectionism, economic nationalism, isolationism and a return to traditional conservative ideals relating to gender, ethnicity, and race.

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pa·ter·nal·ism

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The policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest.
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Conservatism is no more Empty Re: Conservatism is no more

Post by Original Quill on Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:12 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Well, I take neo-conservatism to mean conservatism. Advanced by Professor Leo Strauss, University of Chicago, neoconservatism was a RW response to the increasingly pacifist foreign policy of the Democratic Party, and the growing New Left and counterculture. Neoconservatives typically advocate the promotion of democracy and American national interest in international affairs, including peace through strength (by means of military force), and are known for espousing disdain for communism and for political radicalism.

It is the peace through strength that brings conservatives and neoconservatives into frequent conflicts. So far from bringing real peace, they are frequently called upon to test their strength. Or, they feel they must continually show off their strength. They brought the war in Iraq under false pretenses...all of their own doing.

Trump is neither conservative nor neoconservative, which is my point. Trump has taken over the Republican Party, and it now bears his brand. Trump's brand is diametrically opposed to the old.

Republicans cannot go back to the old values...not after they have condemned and abandoned them. To try is to make them a political joke. More important, they risk alienating the base, which has glued itself to Trump. The old Republican now has to defend the new values of increased debt and deficits, expanded government for white nationalist causes, and isolation with military build up.

Trump is more of a populist and a paleo conservative.

Paleoconservatives support restrictions on immigration, decentralization, trade tariffs and protectionism, economic nationalism, isolationism and a return to traditional conservative ideals relating to gender, ethnicity, and race.

Paleo-conservatism and neo-conservatism pose a difference without a distinction. The two ideas are a reflection of different times, different issues. A paleocon is responding to the 30's and 40's and the New Deal, while a neocon is responding to the 60's and 70's and the New Left.

Populism goes back even further, and it is a reflection of the tensions between the 'average' and the 'elite'.

I don't think Trump is any of the above. He is an opportunist. He has no philosophy and no real agenda. But his influence on the Republican Party is such as to bring down all prior meaning to conservatism. He has wrapped conservatives (except those who have rejected Republicanism) in a cloak of contradictions, from which they will never recover.*

* Although, never put away the notion that Putin may well be running things from the wings.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Conservatism is no more Empty Re: Conservatism is no more

Post by Maddog on Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:37 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Trump is more of a populist and a paleo conservative.

Paleoconservatives support restrictions on immigration, decentralization, trade tariffs and protectionism, economic nationalism, isolationism and a return to traditional conservative ideals relating to gender, ethnicity, and race.

Paleo-conservatism and neo-conservatism pose a difference without a distinction.  The two ideas are a reflection of different times, different issues.  A paleocon is responding to the 30's and 40's and the New Deal, while a neocon is responding to the 60's and 70's and the New Left.

Populism goes back even further, and it is a reflection of the tensions between the 'average' and the 'elite'.

I don't think Trump is any of the above.  He is an opportunist.  He has no philosophy and no real agenda.  But his influence on the Republican Party is such as to bring down all prior meaning to conservatism.  He has wrapped conservatives (except those who have rejected Republicanism) in a cloak of contradictions, from which they will never recover.*

* Although, never put away the notion that Putin may well be running things from the wings.

There is no expiration date on ideology. Rolling Eyes


Last edited by Maddog on Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Conservatism is no more Empty Re: Conservatism is no more

Post by nicko on Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:10 pm

Quill, do you honestly believe Putin is telling Trump what to do ?
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Post by Lurker on Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:40 am

nicko wrote:Quill, do you honestly believe Putin is telling Trump what to do ?

You damn strait he is. I think this photo proves it:

Conservatism is no more Trump886

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Conservatism is no more Empty Re: Conservatism is no more

Post by Original Quill on Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:43 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Paleo-conservatism and neo-conservatism pose a difference without a distinction.  The two ideas are a reflection of different times, different issues.  A paleocon is responding to the 30's and 40's and the New Deal, while a neocon is responding to the 60's and 70's and the New Left.

Populism goes back even further, and it is a reflection of the tensions between the 'average' and the 'elite'.

I don't think Trump is any of the above.  He is an opportunist.  He has no philosophy and no real agenda.  But his influence on the Republican Party is such as to bring down all prior meaning to conservatism.  He has wrapped conservatives (except those who have rejected Republicanism) in a cloak of contradictions, from which they will never recover.*

* Although, never put away the notion that Putin may well be running things from the wings.

There is no expiration date on ideology. Rolling Eyes

No, bo 'use-by' date...but circumstances can end enthusiasm on certain ideas. Republican ideas that we should keep debt and deficit down to a minimum, for example. Gone now.

So, who is going to champion that, and how embarrassed is s/he to call him/herself a Republican?

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Conservatism is no more Empty Re: Conservatism is no more

Post by Original Quill on Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:47 am

nicko wrote:Quill, do you honestly believe Putin is telling Trump what to do ?

Well, I have two choices. One, Trump is brilliant. Two, Putin is calling the shots.

Trump thinks that windmills cause cancer...which one would you choose?

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Conservatism is no more Empty Re: Conservatism is no more

Post by Lurker on Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:08 pm

Conservatism has become fascism ....

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