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Post by Maddog on Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:54 am

HONG KONG — Antigovernment protesters in Hong Kong mounted their fiercest challenge to the authorities on Monday, disrupting more than 200 airline flights, occupying malls and blocking roadways and rail lines to snarl the commute for hundreds of thousands of workers.

The protesters called for a general strike in an effort to halt daily life across the semiautonomous Chinese territory, wielding a potentially powerful new tool in their weekslong campaign against the Hong Kong government.

Hong Kong’s values of efficiency, hard work and, increasingly, a dedication to public protest are colliding as protesters from across society test the limits of the city’s police force. Officers on Monday fired tear gas near shopping malls and residential areas and arrested at least 82 people, while the city’s leader warned that efforts to “topple Hong Kong” could destroy livelihoods and push the city “to the verge of a very dangerous situation.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/world/asia/hong-kong-general-strike.html

Seems like it's close to kicking off over there. I have part of a letter they can borrow to send Beijing.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.


Good luck to them. Unlike colonists of 250 years ago, the folks of Hong Kong are not in a very strong position to take on or even bloody the nose of their oppressors.

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Post by 'Wolfie on Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:18 am

Basketball

We've been getting reports of increasing unrest and growing protests in Hong Kong nearly every night on TV news for the last couple of months...

Ever since the Chinese guvm'nt announced that they were introducing a new law that would allow them to take Hong Kong citizens across into Chinese courts to face trial..

It must be remembered that Hong Kong is part of China, but with it's own "constitution", laws and courts  --  this situation would be like Washington telling the state gov'ts of Texas, California or any other US state that they were imposing a new rule where they can arbitrarily take people to Wahington D.C. to face trial over state-legislated issues.

What those protesters in Hong Kong need is a few mainlanders, and a few Chinese politicians, to back their position, so that they can get a bit of "critical mass" behind their demands..

It worked in Russia in the 1990s...

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Post by Maddog on Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:25 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote: Basketball

We've been getting reports of increasing unrest and growing protests in Hong Kong nearly every night on TV news for the last couple of months...

Ever since the Chinese guvm'nt announced that they were introducing a new law that would allow them to take Hong Kong citizens across into Chinese courts to face trial..

It must be remembered that Hong Kong is part of China, but with it's own "constitution", laws and courts  --  this situation would be like Washington telling the state gov'ts of Texas, California or any other US state that they were imposing a new rule where they can arbitrarily take people to Wahington D.C. to face trial over state-legislated issues.

What those protesters in Hong Kong need is a few mainlanders, and a few Chinese politicians, to back their position, so that they can get a bit of "critical mass" behind their demands..

It worked in Russia in the 1990s...

Russia was collapsing in the 90's. China is not. China is more like Great Britain of 1775, than Russia of 1991.

It's going to be interesting to see how far China want's to push this, and the world response considering what an economic and military power they are.

In a strange twist, the folks of Hong Kong may wish they never got independence from the Brits. They are kind of on their own.

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Post by nicko on Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:05 am

There's plenty of Countries that have descended into chaos since they kicked the Brits out !
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Post by Original Quill on Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:47 pm

Shut down the Hong Kong airport today.

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Post by Syl on Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:56 pm

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/12/asia/hong-kong-police-airport-intl-hnk/index.html

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Post by Eilzel on Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:06 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote: Basketball

We've been getting reports of increasing unrest and growing protests in Hong Kong nearly every night on TV news for the last couple of months...

Ever since the Chinese guvm'nt announced that they were introducing a new law that would allow them to take Hong Kong citizens across into Chinese courts to face trial..

It must be remembered that Hong Kong is part of China, but with it's own "constitution", laws and courts  --  this situation would be like Washington telling the state gov'ts of Texas, California or any other US state that they were imposing a new rule where they can arbitrarily take people to Wahington D.C. to face trial over state-legislated issues.

What those protesters in Hong Kong need is a few mainlanders, and a few Chinese politicians, to back their position, so that they can get a bit of "critical mass" behind their demands..

It worked in Russia in the 1990s...

Russia was collapsing in the 90's. China is not. China is more like Great Britain of 1775, than Russia of 1991.

It's going to be interesting to see how far China want's to push this, and the world response considering what an economic and military power they are.

In a strange twist, the folks of Hong Kong may wish they never got independence from the Brits. They are kind of on their own.

I have a friend from HK (now a British citizen) who says it would've been better if HK never rejoined China. She told me that 8 years ago, before the problems. Sad times when a colonial power is more desirable than your natural country.

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Post by nicko on Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:02 am

The Chinese can't be seen giving in to these people, unless something changes, I see a lot of corpses lying around !
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Post by Maddog on Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:04 am

Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Russia was collapsing in the 90's. China is not. China is more like Great Britain of 1775, than Russia of 1991.

It's going to be interesting to see how far China want's to push this, and the world response considering what an economic and military power they are.

In a strange twist, the folks of Hong Kong may wish they never got independence from the Brits. They are kind of on their own.

I have a friend from HK (now a British citizen) who says it would've been better if HK never rejoined China. She told me that 8 years ago, before the problems. Sad times when a colonial power is more desirable than your natural country.

I think the idea situation would have been if they had been their own country. I have no idea why that didn't happen. Of course I don't know much about the negotiations or run up the British handing over the keys.

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:48 am

Maddog wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Russia was collapsing in the 90's. China is not. China is more like Great Britain of 1775, than Russia of 1991.

It's going to be interesting to see how far China want's to push this, and the world response considering what an economic and military power they are.

In a strange twist, the folks of Hong Kong may wish they never got independence from the Brits. They are kind of on their own.

I have a friend from HK (now a British citizen) who says it would've been better if HK never rejoined China. She told me that 8 years ago, before the problems. Sad times when a colonial power is more desirable than your natural country.

I think the idea situation would have been if they had been their own country. I have no idea why that didn't happen. Of course I don't know much about the negotiations or run up the British handing over the keys.  

Hong Kong was never really a 'colonial possession'. It was taken as part of the Treaty of Nanking at the end of the First Opium Wars and later, as part of an agreement to gain more territory, was made part of a 'lease' agreement for 99 years. In 1997 that lease expired. The balance of power had changed a LOT since 1898 by then, and Britain could hardly renege on that agreement, so it was just a formality. It certainly wasn't in Britain's interests to create conflict over the islands, and HK was in NO position to fight for sovereignty.

It was part of Qing China, it became part of British Empire. It has never been an independent state. Before the British it was an unimportant island.

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Post by nicko on Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:14 am

If they keep poking the Dragon, they'll get "breathed" on !
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Post by Original Quill on Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:33 pm

nicko wrote:If they keep poking the Dragon, they'll get "breathed" on !

Do you think that is a good thing? The British never clarified Hong Kong's status vis-à-vis China, before they cut and ran. Conceivably, Hong Kong is an independent state.

There are moral questions. Do you believe that China is correct in just moving the military in and taking over? How about Taiwan...clearly, it is next? Perhaps Japan down the road?

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:45 pm

Original Quill wrote:
nicko wrote:If they keep poking the Dragon, they'll get "breathed" on !

Do you think that is a good thing?  The British never clarified Hong Kong's status vis-à-vis China, before they cut and ran.  Conceivably, Hong Kong is an independent state.

There are moral questions.  Do you believe that China is correct in just moving the military in and taking over?  How about Taiwan...clearly, it is next?  Perhaps Japan down the road?

For reasons I mentioned above, HK was never an independent state. It was part of China, handed over to the UK temporarily as part of a series of treaties.

Now, I do not agree with the CCP's treatment of HK, not at all, but it isn't as simple as HK being a formerly free nation. It was a colonial holding, then returned to its historic motherland. The problem for the people of HK is that that meant going from a democratic, hand off, faraway colonial power - to an authoritarian, stifling super state.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:06 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Do you think that is a good thing?  The British never clarified Hong Kong's status vis-à-vis China, before they cut and ran.  Conceivably, Hong Kong is an independent state.

There are moral questions.  Do you believe that China is correct in just moving the military in and taking over?  How about Taiwan...clearly, it is next?  Perhaps Japan down the road?

For reasons I mentioned above, HK was never an independent state. It was part of China, handed over to the UK temporarily as part of a series of treaties.

Now, I do not agree with the CCP's treatment of HK, not at all, but it isn't as simple as HK being a formerly free nation. It was a colonial holding, then returned to its historic motherland. The problem for the people of HK is that that meant going from a democratic, hand off, faraway colonial power - to an authoritarian, stifling super state.

Well, you are closer to the problem than I.  I only know what the national networks are reporting over here.

The issue that started this is 'extradition' to the mainland for certain alleged criminals.  Now that sounds a lot like two independent states quibbling over an extradition treaty.  How, if Hong Kong is jurisdictionally undifferentiated from the mainland, does extradition even come up?

The other thing that bothers me is--as I've said before--law is only a grid superimposed over a political situation to establish legitimacy.  This looks a lot like a revolution, not quibbling over a legal matter.  China is a powerful military state.  I see a lot of danger for anyone claiming independence in the region...especially if loudmouthed, but weak-kneed Donald Trump is in charge of the opposition.

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:13 am

Original Quill wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Do you think that is a good thing?  The British never clarified Hong Kong's status vis-à-vis China, before they cut and ran.  Conceivably, Hong Kong is an independent state.

There are moral questions.  Do you believe that China is correct in just moving the military in and taking over?  How about Taiwan...clearly, it is next?  Perhaps Japan down the road?

For reasons I mentioned above, HK was never an independent state. It was part of China, handed over to the UK temporarily as part of a series of treaties.

Now, I do not agree with the CCP's treatment of HK, not at all, but it isn't as simple as HK being a formerly free nation. It was a colonial holding, then returned to its historic motherland. The problem for the people of HK is that that meant going from a democratic, hand off, faraway colonial power - to an authoritarian, stifling super state.

Well, you are closer to the problem than I.  I only know what the national networks are reporting over here.

The issue that started this is 'extradition' to the mainland for certain alleged criminals.  Now that sounds a lot like two independent states quibbling over an extradition treaty.  How, if Hong Kong is jurisdictionally undifferentiated from the mainland, does extradition even come up?

The other thing that bothers me is--as I've said before--law is only a grid superimposed over a political situation to establish legitimacy.  This looks a lot like a revolution, not quibbling over a legal matter.  China is a powerful military state.  I see a lot of danger for anyone claiming independence in the region...especially if loudmouthed, but weak-kneed Donald Trump is in charge of the opposition.

Hong Kong was given some autonomy after being handed over, but was never to be considered a fully fledged separate state from China. It never has been and unfortunately probably never will be. It cannot, however, be compared with Taiwan - which separated absolutely from the mainland after the civil war (despite what BOTH 'Chinas' may say). It has its own full government and is a potential future UN member state. Hong Kong is neither of those things. It has far more in common with Scotland and England than China and Taiwan.

Other nations in the region cannot be compared, since none were ever part of China. If you want comparisons, compare Hong Kong with Tibet and Xijiang, the two other autonomous regions that were annexed by the Qing and remained part of communist China.

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