Our liabilities to others

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:48 pm

prompted by something quill said in the arizona teacher thread in US news......


Quote "Look for a counter-suit against the parents: husband alleging failure to inform HIM (vicarious liability for the boy)."

Where do our liabilitis towards others end?

if you saw some one dying in the gutter and you failed to stop and help

or failed to summon help

are you guilty of anything

does it matter WHY you failed to help?

If you saw a child fall and start crying with no parent evident...would you help/summon help
if not why not

(and I would totally accept the argument for not helping that involves the "i'm not getting near someone elses child cos some bastard will raise the paedo flag"(tho thats not an excuse not to summon help if the fall was serious)

As a trained works first aider, mountain rescue/leader trained first aider and military/industrial trained first aider (which is rather more robust than the first two mentioned as you are trained to deal with major trauma..i.e gunshot wounds, cainsaw injuries etc) and carrying as I do 3 first aid kits in the car one for minor injuries stings grazes and splinters, one for more serious stuff, and one full trauma kit including israeli bandages, blood stop granules and blood stop gauze as well as the much deprecated (in civil use) torniquets, I wouldnt hesitate to get in there if necessary. It wouldnt be the first time "grandads magic salve" has been applied to the unfortunate result of childish over exuberance....Nor the first time the israeli bandage has been used on the unfortunate result of over zealous use of the accelerator.......
(all carried cos 1...I shoot and 2 I and others in the woodland I own use a chainsaw regularly)


that aside what of other liabilities (vicarious liability as per quills post)
I do know in the UK it is a crime NOT to report a crime......so not reporting something that affects another in that sense is unlawful (but only if it can be proved that you knew....)
If YOU knew someone was abusing or taking advantage of a vulnerable person ...would you act...even if it meant personal danger? or only if you could "keep out of it" Or would you say "nope...none of my business"?

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:51 pm

There's no legal duty to report a crime in the UK though.

I reported something to the police, and I never heard a word back, so what's the point?

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:53 pm

there is ragga...since its a crime to "conceal a crime"

as for your second point...I'll give you that....90% of the time police aint interested.....

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Post by Thorin on Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:54 pm

So what you are saying is blood sucking lawyers. Have created a society, that now people are too afraid to do what they are trained to do or even to help someone. In case they are blamed, for things going wrong?

I think its a sad reality that people ae feeling this way but would argue that still many people think through instinct to help others. Not thinking about the consequences at the time. We hear about it all the time with people saving lives. What we hear less so is when it does go wrong or people are sued for trying to help someone. That would be interesting to find out how much that does actually happen mate.

Great thread by the way and your points on  liability are excellent

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:59 pm

phildidge wrote:So what you are saying is blood sucking lawyers. Have created a society, that now people are too afraid to do what they are trained to do or even to help someone. In case they are blamed, for things going wrong?

I think its a sad reality that people ae feeling this way but would argue that still many people think through instinct to help others. Not thinking about the consequences at the time. We hear about it all the time with people saving lives. What we hear less so is when it does go wrong or people are sued for trying to help someone. That would be interesting to find out how much that does actually happen mate.

Great thread by the way and your points on  liability are excellent

of course our liability to others surely must extend beyond the mere rquirements of Law, there are "moral liabilities" too
See the question of helping an injured "other" is not AFAIK a legal requirement (but it is in france for instance)...but it certainly is a moral requirement

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:03 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:there is ragga...since its a crime to "conceal a crime"

as for your second point...I'll give you that....90% of the time police aint interested.....

There is no legal obligation to contact the police, but the information you give them could bring a criminal to justice.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/reporting-crime

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Post by Thorin on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:05 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:
phildidge wrote:So what you are saying is blood sucking lawyers. Have created a society, that now people are too afraid to do what they are trained to do or even to help someone. In case they are blamed, for things going wrong?

I think its a sad reality that people ae feeling this way but would argue that still many people think through instinct to help others. Not thinking about the consequences at the time. We hear about it all the time with people saving lives. What we hear less so is when it does go wrong or people are sued for trying to help someone. That would be interesting to find out how much that does actually happen mate.

Great thread by the way and your points on  liability are excellent

of course our liability to others surely must extend beyond the mere rquirements of Law, there are "moral liabilities" too
See the question of helping an injured "other" is not AFAIK a legal requirement (but it is in france for instance)...but it certainly is a moral requirement


I completely agree mate 100%

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:35 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:prompted by something quill said in the arizona teacher thread in US news......

Quote "Look for a counter-suit against the parents: husband alleging failure to inform HIM (vicarious liability for the boy)."

Where do our liabilitis towards others end?

if you saw some one dying in the gutter and you failed to stop and help

or failed to summon help

are you guilty of anything

does it matter WHY you failed to help?

If you saw a child fall and start crying with no parent evident...would you help/summon help
if not why not

(and I would totally accept the argument for not helping that involves the "i'm not getting near someone elses child cos some bastard will raise the paedo flag"(tho thats not an excuse not to summon help if the fall was serious)

As a trained works first aider, mountain rescue/leader trained first aider and military/industrial trained first aider (which is rather more robust than the first two mentioned as you are trained to deal with major trauma..i.e gunshot wounds, cainsaw injuries etc) and carrying as I do 3 first aid kits in the car one for minor injuries stings grazes and splinters, one for more serious stuff, and one full trauma kit including israeli bandages, blood stop granules and blood stop gauze as well as the much deprecated (in civil use) torniquets, I wouldnt hesitate to get in there if necessary. It wouldnt be the first time "grandads magic salve" has been applied to the unfortunate result of childish over exuberance....Nor the first time the israeli bandage has been used on the unfortunate result of over zealous use of the accelerator.......
(all carried cos 1...I shoot and 2 I and others in the woodland I own use a chainsaw regularly)

The rule of the law is, if you have accepted, or otherwise have the duty to help others, you are liable. There are, of course, exceptions/limitations for first responders, or good samaritans.

It’s tricky, because a lot of people have licenses for one job, but not for the other. A bus driver who is a part-time first responder is well-advised to follow his duty as a bus driver when serving as a bus driver.

I’ve encountered a situation where a woman fell and cut a knee, badly bleeding, and when we got on board the bus driver (whom I knew to be a licensed fireman--I am on the Board of the transit company) declined to help.

His eyes fell on me somewhat pleadingly, and I understood and dressed the lady’s wound myself. Because he’s a licensed professional, he would not only undertake liability for himself, but by assuming to aid, he would also undertake liability for the bus company.

Victor wrote:that aside what of other liabilities (vicarious liability as per quills post)

Vicarious liability is a matter of status to the wrongdoer. For example, parents have vicarious liability for their under aged children, as in the sex charge in the teacher/sex story.

Victor wrote:I do know in the UK it is a crime NOT to report a crime......so not reporting something that affects another in that sense is unlawful (but only if it can be proved that you knew....)

In some cases, even if you didn’t know. Vicariously liability is an absolute liability after the fact of the event or crime.

Victor wrote:If YOU knew someone was abusing or taking advantage of a vulnerable person ...would you act...even if it meant personal danger? or only if you could "keep out of it" Or would you say "nope...none of my business"?

Complex area of law, especially on the civil side. There are different rules for, say, civil fraud with elder victims. Also, you are never required to put yourself in danger.

As for the “none of my business” abstention, that is the general rule, but with many, many exceptions. Lawyers look for those exceptions…that is their job.

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:39 pm

so are we, or are we not "my brothers keeper"

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Patience my Ass......I' m gonna KILLsomething

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:45 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:so are we, or are we not "my brothers keeper"

It depends. Do you have a legal relationship with your brother? Are you his guardian? Or, on the other hand, have you undertaken the responsibility, such as a license or employment?

The general rule is, you are not. But with lots of exceptions and limitations.

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Post by Thorin on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:49 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:so are we, or are we not "my brothers keeper"


I dont think he is getting your point at all mate

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:51 pm

I think Quill is looking at it from merely the Legal view point.....
In law there is no humanity....

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Patience my Ass......I' m gonna KILLsomething

.(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)

[b]I DONT BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Thorin on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:53 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:I think Quill is looking at it from merely the Legal view point.....
In law there is no humanity....


Agreed, often lawyers fails the ethical and moral test. Like I say and this is one area I think greed plays a part in lawyer mentality and why they are ethically wrong in thinking. Sadly tomany of them its all about the money.

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:54 pm

So, Quill, there I am in my woodland and the guy on the neighbouring plot has an accident with his chainsaw.
I have both the equipment AND the training to use it(no licence required btw, anyone can do first aid "to the best of their ability and knowlege" )
Do I or do I not intervene?
first summon help
second control bleeding and maintain airway

time is of the essence



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If at any time in 2018 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2019 AINT gonna be any different

Patience my Ass......I' m gonna KILLsomething

.(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)

[b]I DONT BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Original Quill on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:57 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:I think Quill is looking at it from merely the Legal view point.....
In law there is no humanity....

Humanity is a separate issue.

The law is a tool.  It depends on how you use it.

For example, Trump uses it for inhumane purposes, such as caging children.  Obama used it for humane purposes, such as healthcare.

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Post by Thorin on Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:57 pm

Hope you do not mind Victor, but going to place this story here? Happy to start another thread, just think its valuable to your thread here.




https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/youth-charges-into-flames-to-save-niece/

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Post by Thorin on Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:04 pm

I will ad one point that is countering the blood sucking nature of lawyers today when have a go heroes act to save people. There is now plenty of go fund me pages to help these heroes. I think this is just about one of the only aspects of social mediia. That brings said stories to everyone to help those who suffer from such tragedies/

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:05 pm

good on him, top man

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Patience my Ass......I' m gonna KILLsomething

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Post by Thorin on Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:08 pm

Victorismyhero wrote:So, Quill, there I am in my woodland and the guy on the neighbouring plot has an accident with his chainsaw.
I have both the equipment AND the training to use it(no licence required btw, anyone can do first aid "to the best of their ability and knowlege" )
Do I or do I not intervene?
first summon help
second control bleeding and maintain airway

time is of the essence




Such an injury would be major trauma and time really is of the essence to act. Due to the threat of major blood loss. If you do not act that person will clearly die. A person can lose a couple of pints within minutes. Even quicker if an artery has been severed. Hence action is required immediately in order to save that persons life. Of course its important to call the emrgencies services, but its imperative that the person is treated first to stem the loss of blood.

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Post by Maddog on Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:32 pm

We have good Samaritan laws the protect people that help others.

As for off duty fireman not rendering aid, I've never heard of it. The fireman I know are going to help regardless of being on duty.

I've seen them do it. But I hang with a high class of people.

Sometimes I wonder what country Quill lives in.

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Post by eddie on Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:52 pm

phildidge wrote:
Victorismyhero wrote:so are we, or are we not "my brothers keeper"


I dont think he is getting your point at all mate

No, I don’t think he is either. Not sure why.

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Post by Thorin on Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:13 pm

eddie wrote:
phildidge wrote:


I dont think he is getting your point at all mate

No, I don’t think he is either.  Not sure why.

Indeed and he has avoided Victors conundrum

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:38 pm

I'd say in general, if you see someone who needs help, and you don't have a pressing reason you can't render some assistance, you're not a very good person.

If you, a mother of three, sees a man drowning, and you call the emergency number but don't dive in to save him, because you have three kids dependent on you and you don't want to risk your life, you should have a clear conscience.

If you, a man, sees a child fall from a tree and break an arm, and you simply call the emergency number but do no more because you're afraid someone's going to call you a pedo, you're a piece of shit.

I do think we have a moral obligation (who cares what the law says) to help one another. But I also think we have the right to decide how far we're going to go to help someone in light of our other obligations.

Not even the most successful people ever got anywhere without a LOT of help -- you could even argue that most successful people got more help than the average person.

To help is human, and part of being a person is helping other people, whether it's to find the cure for a disease or to give the last of your cash to a woman who's mother just died and doesn't have the money for a bus ticket.

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Post by eddie on Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:52 pm

Good points Benjamin.

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:53 am

Victorismyhero wrote:So, Quill, there I am in my woodland and the guy on the neighbouring plot has an accident with his chainsaw.
I have both the equipment AND the training to use it(no licence required btw, anyone can do first aid "to the best of their ability and knowlege" )
Do I or do I not intervene?
first summon help
second control bleeding and maintain airway

time is of the essence

In the US?  Give him field tourniquets, stabilize him, and call the paras.  You're covered by good samaritan protections.

Try and do anything more that you are not trained for--say open heart surgery, for instance--and you are inviting liability.

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Post by nicko on Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:38 am

"open heart surgery" for fucks sake Quill ,get a grip !
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Post by Original Quill on Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:05 pm

nicko wrote: "open heart surgery" for fucks sake Quill ,get a grip !

Well, I use the hyperbole to make a point. You can tend to the essentials til the medics get there, but don't go beyond the essentials.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

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