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Post by phildidge on Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:16 pm

Londoners are leaving the capital in record numbers as property prices drive people to the south coast, official data shows. Figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) today revealed that 340,498 residents quit London to live in other parts of the UK.

It marks the highest rate of people fleeing the capital since the ONS began collecting data in 2012. Experts have blamed the exodus from London on inflated house prices and violent crime rates.

Over the same period, just 237,270 people migrated into the city from elsewhere in the UK, meaning that the capital lost a net 103,228 individuals to other parts of the country.

The record figure only relates to 2018 and therefore does not account for the recent slump in the market, which is widely attributed to the uncertainty surrounding Brexit. It also only tracks internal migration, and does not account for migration from sources outside the UK.

Christopher Snowdon, head of lifestyle economics at the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA) said that “property prices are a big deal” and the main cause of internal migration from London.

“Obviously people also want a better quality of life, but they also want access to good schools, to live in rural areas and to get away from the stabbings.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/06/26/record-numbers-people-leaving-london-property-prices-drive-people/

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:27 pm

The big thing I'd wonder about is where they're all going to work ... unless this is mostly retirees?

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Post by phildidge on Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:44 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:The big thing I'd wonder about is where they're all going to work ... unless this is mostly retirees?


Still commuting to London Ben to work

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Post by Jules on Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:50 pm

Some of my London-born relatives have moved from London to nearby counties. It's not just the crime tho, it's the crippling mortgage costs in London too - in fact that was a bigger reason.

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Post by phildidge on Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:00 pm

Jules wrote:Some of my London-born relatives have moved from London to nearby counties. It's not just the crime tho, it's the crippling mortgage costs in London too - in fact that  was a bigger reason.


That also plays a part and a fair point Jules

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:40 pm

London has a higher unemployment rate than the UK rate...



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Post by Victorismyhero on Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:03 am

build a wall round it to keep em in........


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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:25 pm

Jules wrote:Some of my London-born relatives have moved from London to nearby counties. It's not just the crime tho, it's the crippling mortgage costs in London too - in fact that  was a bigger reason.

As the OP says, "...experts have blamed the exodus from London on inflated house prices..."  We share the same challenge in California, although we have much more land area on which to eventually expand. Alas, London, like California, is just too popular, and it's driving prices up and up.

I lov London, but I wouldn't go back unless I was a billionaire. That's not a knock on London. It's a compliment on the city, but a curse on others, like me, who would be delighted to live there. As more and more people covet a place, the prices go up...supply and demand. My god, look at the prices out on the Hamptons, on Long Island, New York.

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Post by Fred Moletrousers on Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:18 pm

As Samuel Johnson so famously said: "When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life."

Bollocks. I live but a 40 minute train journey from the capital and I fuckin' hate the place!
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Post by phildidge on Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:24 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:As Samuel Johnson so famously said: "When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life."

Bollocks. I live but a 40 minute train journey from the capital and I fuckin' hate the place!


The place or the people?

Come on Fred, London is full of history and historical places. I mean you must love he Royal Albert Hall and have fond memories?
London has so much history and must not be seen as horrible, simple by how parts of it are now bad mate?

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:35 pm

Mass immigration pushes up demand for housing, and thereby pushes up costs of housing...


London is overcrowded, expensive, poor air quality, high crime, full of foreigners... public transport is hard work... driving/parking is increasingly difficult, plus there is an increasing war on motorists by local councils/police/traffic wardens who are ever more eager to try to slap a large fine on everyone for the most minor of incidents etc...



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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:21 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Mass immigration pushes up demand for housing, and thereby pushes up costs of housing...

London is overcrowded, expensive, poor air quality, high crime, full of foreigners... public transport is hard work... driving/parking is increasingly difficult, plus there is an increasing war on motorists by local councils/police/traffic wardens who are ever more eager to try to slap a large fine on everyone for the most minor of incidents etc...

That's ironic, tommy.  You are usually saying that penalties are too light on criminals in the UK.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:16 am

Sentences given to convicted criminals are definitely too soft...


I was talking about the wide range of large fines/financial penalties that are inflicted on the every day law abiding citizen when they are just trying to drive their legally owned/insured/taxed vehicle, around london...!


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/25/one-three-british-motorists-fined-every-year-experts-say-automation/


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Post by Original Quill on Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:41 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Sentences given to convicted criminals are definitely too soft...


I was talking about the wide range of large fines/financial penalties that are inflicted on the every day law abiding citizen when they are just trying to drive their legally owned/insured/taxed vehicle, around london...!


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/25/one-three-british-motorists-fined-every-year-experts-say-automation/

But tommy...those are convicted criminals.  You say  "law abiding citizens" but by your own definition, these are fines for breaking the law.  Just because you identify with some of them, doesn't make them different than anyone else who is convicted of a crime. Equal justice under the law, remember?

Apparently you want a special class of people...call it: those who are like me.  Is that much different than racism?

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Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:31 am

Ben Reilly wrote:The big thing I'd wonder about is where they're all going to work ... unless this is mostly retirees?

Some people will travel miles to work in London, so they're not necessarily looking for work where they live. Commuters to London often push house prices up in other areas too.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:32 am

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Sentences given to convicted criminals are definitely too soft...


I was talking about the wide range of large fines/financial penalties that are inflicted on the every day law abiding citizen when they are just trying to drive their legally owned/insured/taxed vehicle, around london...!


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/25/one-three-british-motorists-fined-every-year-experts-say-automation/

But tommy...those are convicted criminals.  You say  "law abiding citizens" but by your own definition, these are fines for breaking the law.  Just because you identify with some of them, doesn't make them different than anyone else who is convicted of a crime.  Equal justice under the law, remember?

Apparently you want a special class of people...call it: those who are like me.  Is that much different than racism?

Getting a parking fine doesn't make someone a convicted criminal.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:45 am

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Sentences given to convicted criminals are definitely too soft...


I was talking about the wide range of large fines/financial penalties that are inflicted on the every day law abiding citizen when they are just trying to drive their legally owned/insured/taxed vehicle, around london...!


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/25/one-three-british-motorists-fined-every-year-experts-say-automation/

But tommy...those are convicted criminals.  You say  "law abiding citizens" but by your own definition, these are fines for breaking the law.  Just because you identify with some of them, doesn't make them different than anyone else who is convicted of a crime.  Equal justice under the law, remember?

Apparently you want a special class of people...call it: those who are like me.  Is that much different than racism?


A parking ticket or a penalty charge for straying into a bus lane etc, does not count as a criminal conviction...


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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:01 pm



Thought quill would understand basic principle of law... with him being a lawyer etc...!?


lol!



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Post by Original Quill on Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:11 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

But tommy...those are convicted criminals.  You say  "law abiding citizens" but by your own definition, these are fines for breaking the law.  Just because you identify with some of them, doesn't make them different than anyone else who is convicted of a crime.  Equal justice under the law, remember?

Apparently you want a special class of people...call it: those who are like me.  Is that much different than racism?


A parking ticket or a penalty charge for straying into a bus lane etc, does not count as a criminal conviction...

Tommy...if it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and waddles like a duck...there's a strong possibility that it is a duck.  You say: "Ticket"?  "Penalty"? Penalty for what?  Anything unlawful, illegal, against the law, illicit, illegitimate is defined as criminal.  Just because you want it to be something different, don't make it so.

Did you think that was a birthday party they were holding down at the courthouse?

Evil or Very Mad

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Post by Raggamuffin on Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:31 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


A parking ticket or a penalty charge for straying into a bus lane etc, does not count as a criminal conviction...

Tommy...if it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and waddles like a duck...there's a strong possibility that it is a duck.  You say: "Ticket"?  "Penalty"?  Penalty for what?  Anything unlawful, illegal, against the law, illicit, illegitimate is defined as criminal.  Just because you want it to be something different, don't make it so.

Did you think that was a birthday party they were holding down at the courthouse?

Evil or Very Mad

You don't go to court for a parking ticket, you just pay a fine.

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:59 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Tommy...if it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and waddles like a duck...there's a strong possibility that it is a duck.  You say: "Ticket"?  "Penalty"?  Penalty for what?  Anything unlawful, illegal, against the law, illicit, illegitimate is defined as criminal.  Just because you want it to be something different, don't make it so.

Did you think that was a birthday party they were holding down at the courthouse?

Evil or Very Mad

You don't go to court for a parking ticket, you just pay a fine.

My point exactly. And what is the fine for? Why, for breaking the law--otherwise known as a criminal offense.

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Post by Vintage on Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:40 pm

I lived and worked there for a while and loved it, it was so easy to get around unlike where I lived previously and now. I agree the museums and places of interest are amazing but so crowded, overcrowded would be a better word. I used to go back quite often but the fun went out of it a long time ago. Its just as has been said dirty, crowded, expensive, there's traffic chaos and a gold mine for the boroughs in motoring fines and buying your way into areas which had no restrictions until lately not to mention thieves and pickpockets having returned in large numbers. House prices are ridiculous even in what were once working class areas and as for rents who can afford them I don't know. Its a shame.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:59 pm



Quill... these are not criminal offences... you do not get arrested by police for these things... the police don't even get involved... you don't go to court... you don't get convicted of anything... and you don't get a criminal record for the things I'm talking about either...


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Post by Original Quill on Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:48 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

Quill... these are not criminal offences... you do not get arrested by police for these things... the police don't even get involved... you don't go to court... you don't get convicted of anything... and you don't get a criminal record for the things I'm talking about either...

Tommy, you're part confused, and part making this up.  These are criminal offenses.  Initially, the cops don't have to get involved except to serve you the ticket.  If you behave, the courts will be gentle on you.  The courts will impose fines, and strong-armed tactics are not necessary.  But the cops sure will get involved if you ignore an order, or a warrant from the court.

Here's the way it works: when you sign the ticket (or if it's a parking ticket), it's your promise to appear...like bail.  You will get a notice to simply pay the fire (tantamount to pleading guilty), or you can contest the matter.  They let you bypass the whole matter by paying the fine (which, again, is pleading guilty).  If you choose to contest the matter, it's the same as any criminal trial.

For the record, if you pay the fine you do get a record.  If you contest the matter, there is a record of it.  If you are found guilty, there is a record.  Even if you're found not guilty, there is a record.  If you ignore the court order, you get a bench warrant (and the cops will take you in for ignoring a court order)...and, trust me, there is a record. If there were no records, everyone would just ignore the matter and go about their sweet way.

When you get a ticket, you got caught.  You either paid a fine or contested it.  If you contested, you had a trial; you are either found guilty, or not guilty.  The court disposes of the matter depending on what you chose to do.  Now, what part of criminal procedure don't you understand?

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:45 am



Quill... It is you who are a little confused here...

Quill said...

"...Tommy, you're part confused, and part making this up.  These are criminal offenses.  Initially, the cops don't have to get involved except to serve you the ticket.  If you behave, the courts will be gentle on you..."


Here in UK... the things I'm talking about... ARE NOT TICKETS ISSUED BY ANY POLICE OFFICERS!!!

AND NOT DEALT WITH BY ANY COURT IF A PERSON WISHES TO APPEAL!!!

So... with that said... the rest of your above post is wrong too...!

You might be 100% correct if talking about what happens in the USA... but that is not true for what happens here in the UK...!




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Post by Original Quill on Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:14 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

Quill... It is you who are a little confused here...

Quill said...

"...Tommy, you're part confused, and part making this up.  These are criminal offenses.  Initially, the cops don't have to get involved except to serve you the ticket.  If you behave, the courts will be gentle on you..."


Here in UK... the things I'm talking about... ARE NOT TICKETS ISSUED BY ANY POLICE OFFICERS!!!

AND NOT DEALT WITH BY ANY COURT IF A PERSON WISHES TO APPEAL!!!

So... with that said... the rest of your above post is wrong too...!

You might be 100% correct if talking about what happens in the USA... but that is not true for what happens here in the UK...!

So maybe it doesn't exist. Maybe London is idyllic and there are no problems. If it's nothing, ignore it.

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:17 am

Quill....a speeding ticket or parking ticket is NOT a criminal offence....at least not here...they are civil offences, which is a different matter altogether. Also whilst the matter may be on record, that is again NOT the same thing as a criminal record, for instance it cannot be used to say exclude you from a job (as long as you haven't got more than so many points on you licence if the job involves driving for the employer. The level that kicks in at is at the employer and his insurers discretion, and the points are only on your licence for 3 years.).

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:27 am

Victorismyhero wrote:Quill....a speeding ticket or parking ticket is NOT a criminal offence....at least not here...they are civil offences, which is a different matter altogether. Also whilst the matter may be on record, that is again NOT the same thing as a criminal record, for instance it cannot be used to say exclude you from a job (as long as you haven't got more than so many points on you licence if the job involves driving for the employer. The level that kicks in at is at the employer and his insurers discretion, and the points are only on your licence for 3 years.).

I know, I know. They changed the law to make it civil, so they could move more cases through. But, if you don't show up, watch how fast the court will issue a warrant. Same as a criminal matter.

A record is a record. If you don't show up, it can be used to show you are undependable.

An employer can use anything. He may have to defend his actions, but he can use anything.

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People leaving London in record numbers as crime and cost drive them to the coast Empty Re: People leaving London in record numbers as crime and cost drive them to the coast

Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Jun 29, 2019 12:46 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Mass immigration pushes up demand for housing, and thereby pushes up costs of housing...


London is overcrowded, expensive, poor air quality, high crime, full of foreigners... public transport is hard work... driving/parking is increasingly difficult, plus there is an increasing war on motorists by local councils/police/traffic wardens who are ever more eager to try to slap a large fine on everyone for the most minor of incidents etc...




Anyway... now quill has stopped derailing the thread... my points again on the op...



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People leaving London in record numbers as crime and cost drive them to the coast Empty Re: People leaving London in record numbers as crime and cost drive them to the coast

Post by Original Quill on Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:10 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Mass immigration pushes up demand for housing, and thereby pushes up costs of housing...


London is overcrowded, expensive, poor air quality, high crime, full of foreigners... public transport is hard work... driving/parking is increasingly difficult, plus there is an increasing war on motorists by local councils/police/traffic wardens who are ever more eager to try to slap a large fine on everyone for the most minor of incidents etc...




Anyway... now quill has stopped derailing the thread... my points again on the op...

It wouldn't be derailing if tommy would just accept the truth.  But it is crucial to his whole thesis: there is an artificial distinction between good guys and bad guys. There is not!  You break the law, you are a criminal.

Since the whole thread is based on the principle that certain law breakers are not criminals, it fails of it's own weight.  There's nothing left, but to point out that this is typical RW thinking.  They start with whom they like, and work backwards into an absurd theory...in this case, it is 'what is criminal law' (tommy: it's not for the guys I like; it's those brown-skinned people).  This result-oriented reasoning is what you get when one is untrained in thinking.

RW'ers are so preoccupied with short-sighted selfishness that they lose track of all sense.  They think in terms of slogans, bumper stickers and rhymes, and never really probe.  At some point their brains--like any other muscle--atrophy and all they are left with are their mental trinkets.

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Normal is broken.

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People leaving London in record numbers as crime and cost drive them to the coast Empty Re: People leaving London in record numbers as crime and cost drive them to the coast

Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:01 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


Anyway... now quill has stopped derailing the thread... my points again on the op...

It wouldn't be derailing if tommy would just accept the truth.  But it is crucial to his whole thesis: there is an artificial distinction between good guys and bad guys.  There is not!  You break the law, you are a criminal.

Since the whole thread is based on the principle that certain law breakers are not criminals,
it fails of it's own weight.  There's nothing left, but to point out that this is typical RW thinking.  They start with whom they like, and work backwards into an absurd theory...in this case, it is 'what is criminal law' (tommy: it's not for the guys I like; it's those brown-skinned people).  This result-oriented reasoning is what you get when one is untrained in thinking.

RW'ers are so preoccupied with short-sighted selfishness that they lose track of all sense.  They think in terms of slogans, bumper stickers and rhymes, and never really probe.  At some point their brains--like any other muscle--atrophy and all they are left with are their mental trinkets.



No quill... you are completely wrong about what this thread is about!



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People leaving London in record numbers as crime and cost drive them to the coast Empty Re: People leaving London in record numbers as crime and cost drive them to the coast

Post by Original Quill on Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:17 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

It wouldn't be derailing if tommy would just accept the truth.  But it is crucial to his whole thesis: there is an artificial distinction between good guys and bad guys.  There is not!  You break the law, you are a criminal.

Since the whole thread is based on the principle that certain law breakers are not criminals,
it fails of it's own weight.  There's nothing left, but to point out that this is typical RW thinking.  They start with whom they like, and work backwards into an absurd theory...in this case, it is 'what is criminal law' (tommy: it's not for the guys I like; it's those brown-skinned people).  This result-oriented reasoning is what you get when one is untrained in thinking.

RW'ers are so preoccupied with short-sighted selfishness that they lose track of all sense.  They think in terms of slogans, bumper stickers and rhymes, and never really probe.  At some point their brains--like any other muscle--atrophy and all they are left with are their mental trinkets.



No quill... you are completely wrong about what this thread is about!

Haha...no I'm not. The problem with you is, you bring your own misperceptions into a discussion about your own misperceptions. It's all a tautology.

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People leaving London in record numbers as crime and cost drive them to the coast Empty Re: People leaving London in record numbers as crime and cost drive them to the coast

Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:10 pm

phildidge wrote:Londoners are leaving the capital in record numbers as property prices drive people to the south coast, official data shows. Figures released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) today revealed that 340,498 residents quit London to live in other parts of the UK.

It marks the highest rate of people fleeing the capital since the ONS began collecting data in 2012. Experts have blamed the exodus from London on inflated house prices and violent crime rates.

Over the same period, just 237,270 people migrated into the city from elsewhere in the UK, meaning that the capital lost a net 103,228 individuals to other parts of the country.

The record figure only relates to 2018 and therefore does not account for the recent slump in the market, which is widely attributed to the uncertainty surrounding Brexit.  It also only tracks internal migration, and does not account for migration from sources outside the UK.

Christopher Snowdon, head of lifestyle economics at the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA) said that “property prices are a big deal” and the main cause of internal migration from London.

“Obviously people also want a better quality of life, but they also want access to good schools, to live in rural areas and to get away from the stabbings.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/06/26/record-numbers-people-leaving-london-property-prices-drive-people/


A reminder of the OP, for quill...!



And to add a statistic that gives an indication of the numbers of foreigners that arrived into london, and into England...


This link shows a graph of NI numbers issued to foreign arrivals in 2018...

576,450 in England as a whole...

With 240,810 of them turning up in London!!!


https://lginform.local.gov.uk/reports/lgastandard?mod-metric=58&mod-area=E92000001&mod-group=AllRegions_England&mod-type=namedComparisonGroup



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Post by Original Quill on Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:44 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:And to add a statistic that gives an indication of the numbers of foreigners that arrived into london, and into England...

You treat them better that we do, no doubt.  Trump is shameless.  When he's in the dock in New York, it will be better.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

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