Ohio jury awards $11 million to bakery owners targeted by Oberlin College student protests - This highlights the problem of SJW Insanity from the left

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Post by phildidge on Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:42 pm

First topic message reminder :

Bakery filed the libel suit after student boycott, allegations of racism,

The owners of an Ohio bakery who sued for libel after being targeted by student protests won Friday an $11 million verdict against Oberlin College.

A Lorain County jury ordered Oberlin to pay $11 million in compensatory damages to Gibson’s Bakery, a local fixture since 1885 that was beset by protests and racism allegations after three black students were arrested for shoplifting the day after the 2016 presidential election.

“The jury saw that Oberlin College went out of their way to harm a good family and longtime business in their community for no real reason, and the jury said we aren’t going to tolerate that in our community anymore,” Owen Rarric, an attorney for the Gibsons, told Legal Insurrection.

The award, which could triple at Tuesday’s hearing on punitive damages, came as a warning to universities that encourage social-justice activism as student protests spill from the campus to the local community.

“The verdict sends a strong message that colleges and universities cannot simply wind up and set loose student social justice warriors and then wash their hands of the consequences,” said Cornell Law School professor William Jacobson, who runs the conservative Legal Insurrection website.


https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jun/7/ohio-jury-awards-11-million-to-bakery-owners-targe/

http://www.chroniclet.com/Local-News/2019/06/07/Gibson-s-Bakery-v-Oberlin-College-More-than-11-million-awarded.html

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:13 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Not so.  If a disgruntled employee runs into the plant and kills his boss and co-workers, the employer isn't criminally liable.

What you haven't proved is facts showing that the College was involved in instructing and organizing those students and faculty who did this.

We're not talking about criminal law though are we?

No, but we are talking about intentional torts.  If an element of a cause involves intent, there has to be a purposeful connection.  It's not negligence or some other loosey-goosey nexus.

That's what is missing in this suit.  There is no clear agency connection to the college such that it can be held responsible.

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Post by phildidge on Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:25 am

Original Quill wrote:
phildidge wrote:A company, any company is liable for the actions of its employees. Hence why the Jury rightly found the college guilty. There is a mass of evidence and I have only produced some of this so far. Its clear the defendents also got caught out lying. So there is no way in helll they willl win on appeal and rightly so. Its about time such frar leftist extremists got taken to task.

Only if the actions were within the scope of the employee agency is the employer responsible for the employee actions.

I'm afraid you've got got it wrong.

I have not got anything wrong and there is an easy way to show you are talking out of your arse

Jordan Perterson was given two warning letters by his own University over Bill C16 due to his comments. They warned him the University would be responsible for what he has said. So you are talking out of your arse. An employer is responsible for the actions of its employees, whilst they are working within that employment. Which is exactly what happened here and why they were found rightly guilty. The fact you keep ignoring the evidence shows you are either being utterly stupid here or deliberately ignoring this, because you want to defend a Far left extremist college. I am going to go for the later

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:54 am

I'd like to know what would have happened if the staff had not got involved. Would they have tried to stop the students from disrupting the business or what? I've been reading about Oberlin and the students generally have form for this sort of thing, but this time it caused damage, anguish, and suffering to a local business.

I think colleges do need to be responsible for what their students do. If students are damaging local businesses they should be chucked out. You can't run a college and then turn a blind eye to students running amok like this.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:43 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I'd like to know what would have happened if the staff had not got involved. Would they have tried to stop the students from disrupting the business or what? I've been reading about Oberlin and the students generally have form for this sort of thing, but this time it caused damage, anguish, and suffering to a local business.

If you want to focus on the staff, I don't object.  If the staff conducted themselves unlawfully, they should be named individually in the lawsuit.  Anyone for whom there are facts connecting them individually with unlawful activity, should be sued.

Raggamuffin wrote:I think colleges do need to be responsible for what their students do.

Students are the customers of colleges and universities.  Perhaps, similarly, businesses need to be responsible for what their customers do.  In that case, Gibson's Bakery should be suing themselves, because their customers defamed them and boycotted their business.

Raggamuffin wrote: If students are damaging local businesses they should be chucked out. You can't run a college and then turn a blind eye to students running amok like this.

Gibson's Bakery is perfectly able to "chuck out" any customers they feel are unwanted.  Leave the colleges or other businesses out of it.  Leave anyone out of it for whom there is no connection.

Or, writ larger, go the other way and include the whole government in your troubles...make it responsible for your problems.  Socialized medicine.  Or, price limits on housing, medicines or petrol.  I would agree with something like that.

But as long as we live in a private economy, you can't just pick someone (or some entity) off the streets, and make them responsible for all that ails you (or your business).

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:47 pm

I mean the students should be chucked out of the college, and the staff should be sacked. If you invite a bunch of students to your college, you should make sure they behave and do not cause disruption in the town or do not harass local businesses and libel them with impunity.

The bakery didn't pick someone off the street, they picked the people who aided and abetted the students - ie, college staff. The college is responsible for what their staff do whilst they're at work. The college students have form for this kind of thing, and the trustees should have been aware of that.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:03 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I mean the students should be chucked out of the college, and the staff should be sacked. If you invite a bunch of students to your college, you should make sure they behave and do not cause disruption in the town or do not harass local businesses and libel them with impunity.

The bakery didn't pick someone off the street, they picked the people who aided and abetted the students - ie, college staff. The college is responsible for what their staff do whilst they're at work. The college students have form for this kind of thing, and the trustees should have been aware of that.

You are trying to create a 'status' crime. Purport to educate people, be responsible for their crimes. The world doesn't work that way.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:05 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I mean the students should be chucked out of the college, and the staff should be sacked. If you invite a bunch of students to your college, you should make sure they behave and do not cause disruption in the town or do not harass local businesses and libel them with impunity.

The bakery didn't pick someone off the street, they picked the people who aided and abetted the students - ie, college staff. The college is responsible for what their staff do whilst they're at work. The college students have form for this kind of thing, and the trustees should have been aware of that.

You are trying to create a 'status' crime.  Purport to educate people, be responsible for their crimes.  The world doesn't work that way.

No I'm not. Some of the staff were clearly involved in the libel anyway, but even if they hadn't been, why on earth should they accept this kind of behaviour from their students being conducted from college premises? They condoned it when they should have condemned it and dealt with the trouble makers who used their facilities. A college has a reputation to uphold, but this college doesn't seem to mind having a dodgy reputation.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:06 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

You are trying to create a 'status' crime.  Purport to educate people, be responsible for their crimes.  The world doesn't work that way.

No I'm not. Some of the staff were clearly involved in the libel anyway, but even if they hadn't been, why on earth should they accept this kind of behaviour from their students being conducted from college premises? They condoned it when they should have condemned it and dealt with the trouble makers who used their facilities. A college has a reputation to uphold, but this college doesn't seem to mind having a dodgy reputation.

Put reputations aside, as it lends nothing to the issue (or is the college accused of not upholding it's reputation?).

Gibson's Bakery also allowed the trouble makers to use their facilities. If that is the criterion, then they also share responsibility.

Indeed, the town of Oberlin, Ohio permitted trouble makers to use their facilities, as did the state of Ohio. The Ohio Turnpike and I-40 must be used to get there, so didn't the US Government allow the trouble makers to use their facilities? Blame everyone.

If the claim doesn't require specific intent, we could go on forever. Or, be specific in showing an intent on the part of the college.

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Post by gelico on Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:42 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

No I'm not. Some of the staff were clearly involved in the libel anyway, but even if they hadn't been, why on earth should they accept this kind of behaviour from their students being conducted from college premises? They condoned it when they should have condemned it and dealt with the trouble makers who used their facilities. A college has a reputation to uphold, but this college doesn't seem to mind having a dodgy reputation.

Put reputations aside, as it lends nothing to the issue (or is the college accused of not upholding it's reputation?).

Gibson's Bakery also allowed the trouble makers to use their facilities.  If that is the criterion, then they also share responsibility.

Indeed, the town of Oberlin, Ohio permitted trouble makers to use their facilities, as did the state of Ohio.  The Ohio Turnpike and I-40 must be used to get there, so didn't the US Government allow the trouble makers to use their facilities?  Blame everyone.

If the claim doesn't require specific intent, we could go on forever.  Or, be specific in showing an intent on the part of the college.


this is a non argument quill. it's quite ridiculous

of course the bakery allowed them to use their facilities. it's when they break the law (stealing) that it becomes a problem

the state allowed them to use the Ohio Turnpike, but if they had been speeding or dunk it would be a problem

you see how it works?

the college should have made it clear from the outset and the beginnings of any threats that

''any student found to be trashing up the joint with food in protest, or indeed causing any other damage will be expelled and the fees non refundable''

quite simple and civilised, don't you think?

i'm with raggs on this

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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:04 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

No I'm not. Some of the staff were clearly involved in the libel anyway, but even if they hadn't been, why on earth should they accept this kind of behaviour from their students being conducted from college premises? They condoned it when they should have condemned it and dealt with the trouble makers who used their facilities. A college has a reputation to uphold, but this college doesn't seem to mind having a dodgy reputation.

Put reputations aside, as it lends nothing to the issue (or is the college accused of not upholding it's reputation?).

Gibson's Bakery also allowed the trouble makers to use their facilities.  If that is the criterion, then they also share responsibility.

Indeed, the town of Oberlin, Ohio permitted trouble makers to use their facilities, as did the state of Ohio.  The Ohio Turnpike and I-40 must be used to get there, so didn't the US Government allow the trouble makers to use their facilities?  Blame everyone.

If the claim doesn't require specific intent, we could go on forever.  Or, be specific in showing an intent on the part of the college.

The bakery didn't allow trouble makers to use their facilities - that's just absurd. Nobody caused trouble except shoplifters, who got kicked out and arrested, and those afterwards who disrupted the business. I don't think they were in there buying bagels. Is that really the best you can come up with?

It's clear that you approve of these students, and you don't give a toss about the suffering on the part of the bakers. You were like that re riots - you thought people should not mind their cars being trashed. You have a very strange attitude.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:22 pm

gelico wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Put reputations aside, as it lends nothing to the issue (or is the college accused of not upholding it's reputation?).

Gibson's Bakery also allowed the trouble makers to use their facilities. If that is the criterion, then they also share responsibility.

Indeed, the town of Oberlin, Ohio permitted trouble makers to use their facilities, as did the state of Ohio. The Ohio Turnpike and I-40 must be used to get there, so didn't the US Government allow the trouble makers to use their facilities? Blame everyone.

If the claim doesn't require specific intent, we could go on forever. Or, be specific in showing an intent on the part of the college.


this is a non argument quill. it's quite ridiculous

of course the bakery allowed them to use their facilities. it's when they break the law (stealing) that it becomes a problem

the state allowed them to use the Ohio Turnpike, but if they had been speeding or dunk it would be a problem

you see how it works?

the college should have made it clear from the outset and the beginnings of any threats that

''any student found to be trashing up the joint with food in protest, or indeed causing any other damage will be expelled and the fees non refundable''

quite simple and civilised, don't you think?

i'm with raggs on this

Speeding and drunk driving and “break[ing] the law (stealing)” are criminal matters. As Raggs made it clear, this is not a criminal matter.

This is a civil matter, in which the question is…is the college responsible?

You say the college should have made it clear from the outset and the beginnings of any threats, that anyone trashing in protest, or causing damage, will be expelled, etc. The claim in the lawsuit was not for physical damage, but for defamation and secondary boycott. So you're not even in the ball park on this.

Turning to the liability for defamation and secondary boycott issues, why do you think that the college had any responsibility? What is your basis? What connection do you point to that makes the college responsible?

I have the feeling that you look upon a college as a parent, where parents are responsible as long as the child is a minor. But the students are not minors, and the college is not a parent.

There must be some independent connection to the events, in order to hold the college responsible. Did the college defame the bakery? How? Did the college organize a secondary boycott? How? What facts do you have to show a connection of the college to any of these matters?

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:26 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:The bakery didn't allow trouble makers to use their facilities - that's just absurd. Nobody caused trouble except shoplifters, who got kicked out and arrested, and those afterwards who disrupted the business. I don't think they were in there buying bagels. Is that really the best you can come up with?

Right, now I think you are on the right track. The people responsible are the people who participated in the defamation and boycott, and did any other bad deeds.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:31 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:It's clear that you approve of these students, and you don't give a toss about the suffering on the part of the bakers. You were like that re riots - you thought people should not mind their cars being trashed. You have a very strange attitude.

Why do you care about me? Why has your concern suddenly shifted to "my attitude"? This is not about me. Stick to the message and do not attack the messenger.

The point: What is the connection of the college to the events complained of?

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Post by phildidge on Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:44 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:It's clear that you approve of these students, and you don't give a toss about the suffering on the part of the bakers. You were like that re riots - you thought people should not mind their cars being trashed. You have a very strange attitude.

Why do you care about me?  Why has your concern suddenly shifted to "my attitude"?  This is not about me.  Stick to the message and do not attack the messenger.

The point: What is the connection of the college to the events complained of?

The College Employees

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Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:44 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:It's clear that you approve of these students, and you don't give a toss about the suffering on the part of the bakers. You were like that re riots - you thought people should not mind their cars being trashed. You have a very strange attitude.

Why do you care about me?  Why has your concern suddenly shifted to "my attitude"?  This is not about me.  Stick to the message and do not attack the messenger.

The point: What is the connection of the college to the events complained of?

Because you're saying very silly things, which shows that you really don't have an argument any more. Come on, your last post was absurd.

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Post by phildidge on Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:45 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:The bakery didn't allow trouble makers to use their facilities - that's just absurd. Nobody caused trouble except shoplifters, who got kicked out and arrested, and those afterwards who disrupted the business. I don't think they were in there buying bagels. Is that really the best you can come up with?

Right, now I think you are on the right track.  The people responsible are the people who participated in the defamation and boycott, and did any other bad deeds.

Which again was also College employees and as they are representatives of the College. The College is liable for their actions

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:28 pm

Agency theory in American law says employees are not agents in the sense that they represent, or can speak for the college. They must be authorized.

Employees are just employees.  They can speak only for themselves.

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Post by phildidge on Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:30 pm

Original Quill wrote:Agency theory in American law says employees are not agents in the sense that they represent, or can speak for the college.  They must be authorized.

Employees are just employees.  They can speak only for themselves.

And yet the court and the jury disagrees with you. Employers are responsible for the actioons of their employees and thousands of lawsuits won porove you are simple a complete imbicille

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:59 pm

phildidge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Agency theory in American law says employees are not agents in the sense that they represent, or can speak for the college.  They must be authorized.

Employees are just employees.  They can speak only for themselves.

And yet the court and the jury disagrees with you. Employers are responsible for the actioons of their employees and thousands of lawsuits won porove you are simple a complete imbicille

The distinction being, the employer authorized the agency, in order for the employer to be held.  Many thousands of more cases are lost because the law doesn't permit agency without authority. The case will lose on appeal.

We've been all over this fact before.  And, there has been several pages in which I have discussed it with others.  It's frustrating...if you would just learn to read, Idiot!

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Post by phildidge on Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:00 pm

Original Quill wrote:
phildidge wrote:

And yet the court and the jury disagrees with you. Employers are responsible for the actioons of their employees and thousands of lawsuits won porove you are simple a complete imbicille

The distinction being, the employer authorized the agency, in order for the employer to be held.  Many thousands of more cases are lost because cause the law doesn't permit agency without authority.


And as seen this case was won, because the employees, with the knowledge of the College who did nothing to actually stop this and even helped cause this hate and lies. Now have been found rightly guilty.

Fuck em, its time the world started standing up to these fanatical extremists on the left

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:05 pm

phil wrote:And as seen this case was won, because the employees, with the knowledge of the College who did nothing to actually stop this and even helped cause this hate and lies. Now have been found rightly guilty.

Fuck em, its time the world started standing up to these fanatical extremists on the left

It was a run-away jury. It isn't the first time, and won't be the last. These are tribal times, and people choose sides.

Fortunately, appeals courts exist to fix such things.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by phildidge on Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:11 pm

Original Quill wrote:
phil wrote:And as seen this case was won, because the employees, with the knowledge of the College who did nothing to actually stop this and even helped cause this hate and lies. Now have been found rightly guilty.

Fuck em, its time the world started standing up to these fanatical extremists on the left

It was a run-away jury.  It isn't the first time, and won't be the last.  These are tribal times, and people choose sides.

Fortunately, appeals courts exist to fix such things.

There is nothing that needs fixing in this case. The only thing that needs fixing is the rampant far leftist religious cults that exist in many Universities

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Post by Jules on Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:56 pm

phildidge wrote:..... Gibson’s Bakery, a local fixture since 1885 that was beset by protests and racism allegations after three black students were arrested for shoplifting

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jun/7/ohio-jury-awards-11-million-to-bakery-owners-targe/
http://www.chroniclet.com/Local-News/2019/06/07/Gibson-s-Bakery-v-Oberlin-College-More-than-11-million-awarded.html


So were these three students caught in the act, on CCTV?
If so, I assume they were dragged up badly and they come from dishonest families -
and perhaps their parents were shoplifters too. No 


Shoplifting angers me. Retailers bump up their prices to make up for the deficit caused by stealing. Grrrr!! Mad



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Over here in the UK, some  literally make a career out of it.
They are professionals, it's how they make a living!

Seen  shows where the shoplifters are out & proud
...... And fall over themselves to tell their stories publicly to anyone who would listen > >

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Post by 'Wolfie on Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:41 am

phildidge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

It was a run-away jury.  It isn't the first time, and won't be the last.  These are tribal times, and people choose sides.

Fortunately, appeals courts exist to fix such things.

There is nothing that needs fixing in this case. The only thing that needs fixing is the rampant far leftist religious cults that exist in many Universities


Ohio jury awards $11 million to bakery owners targeted by Oberlin College student protests - This highlights the problem of SJW Insanity from the left - Page 3 3489511464

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Post by phildidge on Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:56 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
phildidge wrote:

There is nothing that needs fixing in this case. The only thing that needs fixing is the rampant far leftist religious cults that exist in many Universities


Ohio jury awards $11 million to bakery owners targeted by Oberlin College student protests - This highlights the problem of SJW Insanity from the left - Page 3 3489511464


The religion of intersectionality

How the social-justice movement became a self-defeating cult of victimhood.

One of the most baffling features of the culture wars is the way in which intersectionality, a relatively obscure branch of feminism, has infiltrated the mainstream. It has influenced the policies of employers, educators and politicians, in spite of the fact that few have taken the trouble to understand its implications. Like most aspects of the social-justice movement, it is taken on faith and implemented without question. For the new religionists, debate is a form of heresy.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/05/01/the-religion-of-intersectionality/


“Intersectionality” is the latest academic craze sweeping the American academy. On the surface, it’s a recent neo-Marxist theory that argues that social oppression does not simply apply to single categories of identity — such as race, gender, sexual orientation, class, etc. — but to all of them in an interlocking system of hierarchy and power. At least, that’s my best attempt to define it briefly. But watching that video helps show how an otherwise challenging social theory can often operate in practice.

t is operating, in Orwell’s words, as a “smelly little orthodoxy,” and it manifests itself, it seems to me, almost as a religion. It posits a classic orthodoxy through which all of human experience is explained — and through which all speech must be filtered. Its version of original sin is the power of some identity groups over others. To overcome this sin, you need first to confess, i.e., “check your privilege,” and subsequently live your life and order your thoughts in a way that keeps this sin at bay. The sin goes so deep into your psyche, especially if you are white or male or straight, that a profound conversion is required.

Like the Puritanism once familiar in New England, intersectionality controls language and the very terms of discourse. It enforces manners. It has an idea of virtue — and is obsessed with upholding it. The saints are the most oppressed who nonetheless resist. The sinners are categorized in various ascending categories of demographic damnation, like something out of Dante. The only thing this religion lacks, of course, is salvation. Life is simply an interlocking drama of oppression and power and resistance, ending only in death. It’s Marx without the final total liberation.


http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/03/is-intersectionality-a-religion.html


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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:31 pm

phildidge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

It was a run-away jury.  It isn't the first time, and won't be the last.  These are tribal times, and people choose sides.

Fortunately, appeals courts exist to fix such things.

There is nothing that needs fixing in this case. The only thing that needs fixing is the rampant far leftist religious cults that exist in many Universities

Run-away jury...

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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