Is Trump a socialist?

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Post by Original Quill on Fri May 24, 2019 4:53 am

First topic message reminder :

Trump just announced a grant of $16-billion to be given to mid-western farmers, to compensate for what it costs them in business lost from China owing to his tariffs.

NBC wrote:Trump administration unveils $16 billion bailout to farmers hurt by China trade war
PUBLISHED THU, MAY 23 2019  9:23 AM

The Trump administration on Thursday announced a $16 billion trade aid program for American farmers that includes a three-pronged aid package for American farmers who have been hurt by the U.S. trade war with China.

The centerpiece is cash payments totaling $14.5 billion to producers of a variety of crops as well as dairy and pork producers impacted by retaliatory tariffs. U.S. tariff revenue collected by the Treasury would be used to support the program, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

“The package we’re announcing today ensures that farmers will not bear the brunt of those trade practices by China or any other nation,” Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue said Thursday on a press call.

In addition, the government plans bulk purchases of about $1.4 billion of fresh produce and other food products impacted by tariffs. Food would be used to help food banks, pantries and school meal programs.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/23/trump-to-give-16-billion-to-farmers-hurt-by-trade-war-sonny-perdue.html

So, his fix for the problems he creates in global economics is socialism?  I wonder how much of this government welfare will go to agribusiness.

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Post by 'Wolfie on Sun May 26, 2019 2:07 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Rolling Eyes

Yet again you show your economic ignorance,  Maddog...

If he nationalised the farms, he would be a "communist"...

Socialism isn't the opposite of capitalism.

Rather,  it's that flexible/transient region along the road between authoritarian communism in the upper left quadrant of the "political spectrum",  and totally "free" markets in the lower right  (i.e. that 'Libertarian' paradise of low taxes, no welfare and minimal governance..).

Socialism is an economic system, in which the means of production are owned socially or by the government. Nationalizing a particular industry isn't communism. That's why the NHS in England is not considered a communist Institution.

Rolling Eyes

Stop spouting your ignorant lies, Maddog.

By continually trying to enforce your own bullshit definitions onto words and concepts that already have proper meanings, all you are proving here is your obvious lack of education..

Deliberately confusing the concepts of 'socialism' and 'communism', while conflating terms like 'capitalism' and 'libertarianism' with "democracy", simply shows you up for the ignorant, big-mouthed bullying redneck fool that you are...

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Post by Maddog on Sun May 26, 2019 2:50 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Socialism is an economic system, in which the means of production are owned socially or by the government. Nationalizing a particular industry isn't communism. That's why the NHS in England is not considered a communist Institution.

Rolling Eyes

Stop spouting your ignorant lies,  Maddog.

By continually trying to enforce your own bullshit definitions onto words and concepts that already have proper meanings,  all you are proving here is your obvious lack of education..

Deliberately confusing the concepts of 'socialism' and 'communism', while conflating terms like 'capitalism' and 'libertarianism' with "democracy", simply shows you up for the ignorant, big-mouthed bullying redneck fool that you are...

So when the Brits nationalized their health care, it became communist? Because you said nationalizing our farms would make them communist entity.

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Post by Maddog on Sun May 26, 2019 2:54 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:If he nationalised the farms, he would be a "communist"...


Was Attlee a communist?

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun May 26, 2019 3:06 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Rolling Eyes

Yet again you show your economic ignorance,  Maddog...

If he nationalised the farms, he would be a "communist"...

Socialism isn't the opposite of capitalism.

Rather,  it's that flexible/transient region along the road between authoritarian communism in the upper left quadrant of the "political spectrum",  and totally "free" markets in the lower right  (i.e. that 'Libertarian' paradise of low taxes, no welfare and minimal governance..).

Socialism is an economic system, in which the means of production are owned socially or by the government. Nationalizing a particular industry isn't communism. That's why the NHS in England is not considered a communist Institution.


And 'far left' = national socialism, whereby even the privately owned businesses were subject to heavy state control over all the means of production... ie, what to produce, how much, supply chains, prices set for sale to buyers...


Far left = big state, big state control over everything = national socialist = NAZI



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Post by 'Wolfie on Sun May 26, 2019 9:26 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Socialism is an economic system, in which the means of production are owned socially or by the government. Nationalizing a particular industry isn't communism. That's why the NHS in England is not considered a communist Institution.


And 'far left' = national socialism, whereby even the privately owned businesses were subject to heavy state control over all the means of production... ie, what to produce, how much, supply chains, prices set for sale to buyers...

Far left = big state, big state control over everything = national socialist = NAZI


Is Trump a socialist? - Page 2 3489511464

And so the fight continues...

Tommy is once again challenging smelly-bandit, to prove which one of them is the stupidest dunce on Newsfix..

Lowering the bar to ever more idiotic depths.

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Post by Original Quill on Sun May 26, 2019 4:40 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:And 'far left' = national socialism, whereby even the privately owned businesses were subject to heavy state control over all the means of production... ie, what to produce, how much, supply chains, prices set for sale to buyers...

Far left = big state, big state control over everything = national socialist = NAZI

What I find curious is that this is precisely the logic of Redneck...save that the words and symbols change. Redneck confuses socialism with communism; tommy confuses socialism with nazism.

Neither one has done a wit of investigation...it's all random hearsay.

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Post by Lurker on Sun May 26, 2019 4:52 pm

Trump is a white supremacist dictator. He's every low life racist bigot rolled into one. He's Mussolini, Hitler, Erich Honecker, and many more. He's the bottom of the barrel when it comes to leaders.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sun May 26, 2019 5:16 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:And 'far left' = national socialism, whereby even the privately owned businesses were subject to heavy state control over all the means of production... ie, what to produce, how much, supply chains, prices set for sale to buyers...

Far left = big state, big state control over everything = national socialist = NAZI

What I find curious is that this is precisely the logic of Redneck...save that the words and symbols change.  Redneck confuses socialism with communism; tommy confuses socialism with nazism.

Neither one has done a wit of investigation...it's all random hearsay.


No confusion... 'state socialism' = a form of socialism... And its what the nazis were...!


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Post by 'Wolfie on Sun May 26, 2019 5:45 pm

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Post by Original Quill on Sun May 26, 2019 5:48 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

What I find curious is that this is precisely the logic of Redneck...save that the words and symbols change.  Redneck confuses socialism with communism; tommy confuses socialism with nazism.

Neither one has done a wit of investigation...it's all random hearsay.

No confusion... 'state socialism' = a form of socialism... And its what the nazis were...!

It's what the Nazis called themselves.  As Les pointed out, Kim Jong-un's north Korea calls itself: Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK or DPR Korea).  Do you think they are a democracy?

If you accept their self-chosen name as your criteria, North Korea is a democracy.  But your criterion is nonsense.

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Post by Lurker on Tue May 28, 2019 1:18 pm

Is Trump a socialist?

He's too damn stupid to be anything but a fuckup...

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue May 28, 2019 7:29 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

No confusion... 'state socialism' = a form of socialism... And its what the nazis were...!

It's what the Nazis called themselves.  As Les pointed out, Kim Jong-un's north Korea calls itself: Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK or DPR Korea).  Do you think they are a democracy?

If you accept their self-chosen name as your criteria, North Korea is a democracy.  But your criterion is nonsense.


North Korea can call itself what it likes... but by its actions, it is obviously not a democracy...


The nazis, however, were clearly far left nationalist state socialists... big state, big state control, aggressively enforcing their "we know best" ideals, best for the state and best for the people... and controlling the whole of business and industry, and controlling all the means of production...!



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Post by Original Quill on Tue May 28, 2019 7:57 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

It's what the Nazis called themselves.  As Les pointed out, Kim Jong-un's north Korea calls itself: Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK or DPR Korea).  Do you think they are a democracy?

If you accept their self-chosen name as your criteria, North Korea is a democracy.  But your criterion is nonsense.


North Korea can call itself what it likes... but by its actions, it is obviously not a democracy...

The same with the Nazis.

Tommy Monk wrote:The nazis, however, were clearly far left nationalist state socialists... big state, big state control, aggressively enforcing their "we know best" ideals, best for the state and best for the people... and controlling the whole of business and industry, and controlling all the means of production...!

Sounds like North Korea!! It's a fine line between 'far left' and 'far right'...they both behave the same.

The question is, if North Korea can falsely call itself a democracy, why couldn't Nazi Germany falsely call itself socialist? The point is, any nation can call itself what it likes, as you state. But, it is defined by it's actions, not it's name.


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Post by Maddog on Tue May 28, 2019 10:08 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Socialism is an economic system, in which the means of production are owned socially or by the government. Nationalizing a particular industry isn't communism. That's why the NHS in England is not considered a communist Institution.


And 'far left' = national socialism, whereby even the privately owned businesses were subject to heavy state control over all the means of production... ie, what to produce, how much, supply chains, prices set for sale to buyers...


Far left = big state, big state control over everything = national socialist = NAZI



It's a circle. The far left and far right are both statists, with not much separating them.

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Post by eddie on Tue May 28, 2019 10:13 pm

Maddog wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Socialism is an economic system, in which the means of production are owned socially or by the government. Nationalizing a particular industry isn't communism. That's why the NHS in England is not considered a communist Institution.


And 'far left' = national socialism, whereby even the privately owned businesses were subject to heavy state control over all the means of production... ie, what to produce, how much, supply chains, prices set for sale to buyers...


Far left = big state, big state control over everything = national socialist = NAZI



It's a circle. The far left and far right are both statists, with not much separating them.    

I kinda know what you mean. I really do. Can I put it in a very simplistic nutshell? And it’s very simplistic:

They both think they’re right, in a disgustingly superior way.

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Post by Maddog on Tue May 28, 2019 10:18 pm

eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It's a circle. The far left and far right are both statists, with not much separating them.    

I kinda know what you mean. I really do.  Can I put it in a very simplistic nutshell? And it’s very simplistic:

They both think they’re right, in a disgustingly superior way.  

Everyone thinks they are right. But the extreme left and right, want to use the power of government to shove their beliefs down the throats of others.

Gotta run.

Ciao!

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Post by eddie on Tue May 28, 2019 10:29 pm

Maddog wrote:
eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It's a circle. The far left and far right are both statists, with not much separating them.    

I kinda know what you mean. I really do.  Can I put it in a very simplistic nutshell? And it’s very simplistic:

They both think they’re right, in a disgustingly superior way.  

Everyone thinks they are right. But the extreme left and right, want to use the power of government to shove their beliefs down the throats of others.

Gotta run.

Ciao!  

Maddog. Then we part ways: because not everyone thinks they’re right. I don’t. I don’t know most things because I only have another’s opinion unless I see it or hear it or taste it..etc etc.
Your reply shows, to me, that you are just like the people you criticise, who also think they’re right. You think you’re right. So do they. So how are YOU any different?

You know, thinking you’re right is only about one opinion: yours (based on....an article?a certain author or publication?) well everyone thinks their article, author or publication is best.

What if we said: “I don’t fucking know who’s right” Would we then be more open?

Would we then try harder to find out what we really thought? What if there was no news, Internet, social media, other...? Would we use our own eyes, ears and other senses?
It’s all we really have, isn’t it?

Digest my post. Don’t reply to answer. And, “I don’t know the answers but you pose something to consider” is not going to be taken by me as “Oooh I’ve won the debate!”
I don’t fucking know either. I just want someone else to say they don’t know. Winning a debate isn’t a wow to me, not sure you can win a debate and who cares anyway.



I gotta go too. But I’m not Italian so I’ll say Ta-ta Old Chum!

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue May 28, 2019 10:33 pm


Right = small state, small state control, low taxes and minimal authoritarian interference in peoples lives...


How does 'far right' = any sort of big state + big state control over the enforcement and over regulation and over involvement of any of the above...!?


How can you have a big state and big state control that ensures a small state and small state control and minimal interference etc...!?


It is a complete contradiction!!!


And impossible!!!



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Post by Eilzel on Wed May 29, 2019 12:27 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Right = small state, small state control, low taxes and minimal authoritarian interference in peoples lives...


How does 'far right' = any sort of big state + big state control over the enforcement and over regulation and over involvement of any of the above...!?


How can you have a big state and big state control that ensures a small state and small state control and minimal interference etc...!?


It is a complete contradiction!!!


And impossible!!!



You do realise the unquestionably RW Republicans just introduced jail sentences for women having abortions in Alabama? How much more interference on people's lives do you want to see to know that basic definition of Left vs Right is wrong?

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Post by Maddog on Wed May 29, 2019 2:30 pm

eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Everyone thinks they are right. But the extreme left and right, want to use the power of government to shove their beliefs down the throats of others.

Gotta run.

Ciao!  

Maddog. Then we part ways: because not everyone thinks they’re right. I don’t. I don’t know most things because I only have another’s opinion unless I see it or hear it or taste it..etc etc.
Your reply shows, to me, that you are just like the people you criticise, who also think they’re right. You think you’re right. So do they. So how are YOU any different?

You know, thinking you’re right is only about one opinion: yours (based on....an article?a certain author or publication?) well everyone thinks their article, author or publication is best.

What if we said: “I don’t fucking know who’s right” Would we then be more open?

Would we then try harder to find out what we really thought? What if there was no news, Internet, social media, other...? Would we use our own eyes, ears and other senses?
It’s all we really have, isn’t it?

Digest my post. Don’t reply to answer. And, “I don’t know the answers but you pose something to consider” is not going to be taken by me as “Oooh I’ve won the debate!”
I don’t fucking know either. I just want someone else to say they don’t know. Winning a debate isn’t a wow to me, not sure you can win a debate and who cares anyway.



I gotta go too. But I’m not Italian so I’ll say Ta-ta Old Chum!

Parting ways is exactly what I would do. My point is about extremists on both ends that won't do that. They want to use the power of the state to impose their will.


When there is a boot on your throat, does it matter if it's the left or the right boot?

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Post by Maddog on Wed May 29, 2019 2:33 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:
Right = small state, small state control, low taxes and minimal authoritarian interference in peoples lives...


How does 'far right' = any sort of big state + big state control over the enforcement and over regulation and over involvement of any of the above...!?


How can you have a big state and big state control that ensures a small state and small state control and minimal interference etc...!?


It is a complete contradiction!!!


And impossible!!!



You do realise the unquestionably RW Republicans just introduced jail sentences for women having abortions in Alabama? How much more interference on people's lives do you want to see to know that basic definition of Left vs Right is wrong?

That's incorrect. The jail sentences are for providers not recipients of abortion

And abortions are still legal, but more restricted than in other areas.

Carry on.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed May 29, 2019 4:48 pm

Maddog wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

You do realise the unquestionably RW Republicans just introduced jail sentences for women having abortions in Alabama? How much more interference on people's lives do you want to see to know that basic definition of Left vs Right is wrong?

That's incorrect. The jail sentences are for providers not recipients of abortion  

And abortions are still legal, but more restricted than in other areas.  

Carry on.  

That's a political decision, not intrinsic to the issue.  If states started imprisoning pregnant mothers, it would not look too good to the public.  So anti-abortionists strategically avoid blaming mothers, and inevitably draw up prison sentences only for the physicians involved.

Ask yourselves—since it takes two to tango—why not imprison pregnant mothers?  They are every bit a part of the decision.  So you see...it's a talking point, nothing more.

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Post by Maddog on Wed May 29, 2019 5:25 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

That's incorrect. The jail sentences are for providers not recipients of abortion  

And abortions are still legal, but more restricted than in other areas.  

Carry on.  

That's a political decision, not intrinsic to the issue.  If states started imprisoning pregnant mothers, it would not look too good to the public.  So anti-abortionists strategically avoid blaming mothers, and inevitably draw up prison sentences only for the physicians involved.

Ask yourselves—since it takes two to tango—why not imprison pregnant mothers?  They are every bit a part of the decision.  So you see...it's a talking point, nothing more.

I simply corrected some misinformation. Do you prefer that misinformation continue to be spread?

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Post by Original Quill on Wed May 29, 2019 5:43 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

That's a political decision, not intrinsic to the issue.  If states started imprisoning pregnant mothers, it would not look too good to the public.  So anti-abortionists strategically avoid blaming mothers, and inevitably draw up prison sentences only for the physicians involved.

Ask yourselves—since it takes two to tango—why not imprison pregnant mothers?  They are every bit a part of the decision.  So you see...it's a talking point, nothing more.

I simply corrected some misinformation. Do you prefer that misinformation continue to be spread?

And I added a footnote to your correction.  You cite a disingenuous point.

Not your fault, mind you. What you say is true.  But the underlying, real facts do need to be brought to light.

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Post by Maddog on Wed May 29, 2019 7:24 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I simply corrected some misinformation. Do you prefer that misinformation continue to be spread?

And I added a footnote to your correction.  You cite a disingenuous point.

Not your fault, mind you.  What you say is true.  But the underlying, real facts do need to be brought to light.

It's a bad habit of mine.

One you have never embraced. tongue

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Post by Original Quill on Wed May 29, 2019 8:45 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

And I added a footnote to your correction.  You cite a disingenuous point.

Not your fault, mind you.  What you say is true.  But the underlying, real facts do need to be brought to light.

It's a bad habit of mine.

One you have never embraced. tongue

What? Speaking truth?

Or leaving out crucial underlying facts in order to skew the picture?

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Maddog on Wed May 29, 2019 8:47 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

It's a bad habit of mine.

One you have never embraced. tongue

What?  Speaking truth?

Or leaving out crucial underlying facts in order to skew the picture?

Speaking the truth.

Seen Chuck Norris lately? rabbit

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Post by Original Quill on Wed May 29, 2019 8:52 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

What?  Speaking truth?

Or leaving out crucial underlying facts in order to skew the picture?

Speaking the truth.

Seen Chuck Norris lately?   rabbit

Perhaps you mean, twisting the truth.  Ya know, like leaving out crucial facts about abortion?

Don't worry, it's a cancer that all Republicans have.

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Post by Maddog on Wed May 29, 2019 8:55 pm

Quill wrote:What you say is true


We agree.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed May 29, 2019 9:50 pm

Maddog wrote:
Quill wrote:What you say is true

We agree.  

Quote it all, not just the part you like.  

I said, you speak the truth, just that you leave out a lot in order to twist it.

Not to worry.  It's a Republican game: Saddam planned 9/11; there are WMD's in Iraq; Obama wasn't born in the US; Trump's inauguration was packed; "a very smooth rollout of the travel ban” (it was struck down); biggest electoral college win; a false terrorist attack in Atlanta; a tax-cut for the rich benefits the poor person.

Republicans have to lie in order to be validated.  How else are they going to get votes?

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Post by eddie on Wed May 29, 2019 9:54 pm

Why don’t you both get a room Razz

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Post by Original Quill on Wed May 29, 2019 9:56 pm

eddie wrote:Why don’t you both get a room Razz

I was just thinking, he has been reduced to personal insults. Time for me to bow out.

Rolling Eyes

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Post by eddie on Wed May 29, 2019 10:22 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:Why don’t you both get a room Razz

I was just thinking, he has been reduced to personal insults.  Time for me to bow out.

Rolling Eyes

Hmmm yeah...people who post personal insults are so boring, right? Hope you get the gist.

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Post by Maddog on Thu May 30, 2019 6:19 am

eddie wrote:Why don’t you both get a room Razz

Because his head wouldn't fit through the door. Cool

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Post by Original Quill on Thu May 30, 2019 5:35 pm

eddie wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I was just thinking, he has been reduced to personal insults.  Time for me to bow out.

Rolling Eyes

Hmmm yeah...people who post personal insults are so boring, right? Hope you get the gist.

Are you taking sides? I'm leaving because he is a waste of time. What are you doing?

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Maddog on Thu May 30, 2019 8:31 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:

Hmmm yeah...people who post personal insults are so boring, right? Hope you get the gist.

Are you taking sides?  I'm leaving because he is a waste of time.  What are you doing?

Going to work out with Chuck Norris?

Have fun!!

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