Is Trump a socialist?

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Post by Original Quill on Fri May 24, 2019 4:53 am

Trump just announced a grant of $16-billion to be given to mid-western farmers, to compensate for what it costs them in business lost from China owing to his tariffs.

NBC wrote:Trump administration unveils $16 billion bailout to farmers hurt by China trade war
PUBLISHED THU, MAY 23 2019  9:23 AM

The Trump administration on Thursday announced a $16 billion trade aid program for American farmers that includes a three-pronged aid package for American farmers who have been hurt by the U.S. trade war with China.

The centerpiece is cash payments totaling $14.5 billion to producers of a variety of crops as well as dairy and pork producers impacted by retaliatory tariffs. U.S. tariff revenue collected by the Treasury would be used to support the program, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

“The package we’re announcing today ensures that farmers will not bear the brunt of those trade practices by China or any other nation,” Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue said Thursday on a press call.

In addition, the government plans bulk purchases of about $1.4 billion of fresh produce and other food products impacted by tariffs. Food would be used to help food banks, pantries and school meal programs.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/23/trump-to-give-16-billion-to-farmers-hurt-by-trade-war-sonny-perdue.html

So, his fix for the problems he creates in global economics is socialism?  I wonder how much of this government welfare will go to agribusiness.

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Fri May 24, 2019 5:06 am

Arrow

Selective socialism...

A.k.a.  "Pork barrelling"..

Won't see any complaints from DYK, smelly' or gelico as long as it's Trump doing it.  Imagine the whinging, though, (especially from Maddog) if it had been Democrats promoting those subsidies..

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Post by Original Quill on Fri May 24, 2019 5:21 am

It's still socialism, flat out.  He's capitalizing an industry...and it's a loser to boot.  First coal, and now soy beans.

All he's going to do is convince the world, and China, how monopsonistic and vulnerable the US is. I mean, how strong is a market economy when you've got to capitalize it.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri May 24, 2019 2:34 pm

Original Quill wrote:It's still socialism, flat out.  He's capitalizing an industry...and it's a loser to boot.  First coal, and now soy beans.

All he's going to do is convince the world, and China, how monopsonistic and vulnerable the US is.  I mean, how strong is a market economy when you've got to capitalize it.

None of our right-wingers or libertarian types will comment on this, because it creates too much cognitive dissonance if they question the sort of right-wing authoritarian leader they crave so badly.

Hypocrites of the highest order -- they ignore their professed values whenever they decide someone they like isn't living up to them.

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Post by nicko on Fri May 24, 2019 4:47 pm

WHY can't Posters use the proper names of other Posters instead of "childish" made up ones !
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Post by Original Quill on Fri May 24, 2019 5:58 pm

nicko wrote:WHY can't Posters use the proper names of other Posters instead of "childish" made up ones !

A lot of them know the other poster by a former name, at another site. For examples, Les, Vic (he's now returned to a name involving "Victor'), Cam and Didge. BTW, Dean's new name is simply too awkward and long. Plucky became Oriental Lady, but both her name and her avvie scream Plucky to us old timers. It took me years to not call Wolf by his original name, Beekeeper.

To answer your question, nicko, it's human nature.

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Post by Original Quill on Fri May 24, 2019 6:28 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Original Quill wrote:It's still socialism, flat out.  He's capitalizing an industry...and it's a loser to boot.  First coal, and now soy beans.

All he's going to do is convince the world, and China, how monopsonistic and vulnerable the US is.  I mean, how strong is a market economy when you've got to capitalize it.

None of our right-wingers or libertarian types will comment on this, because it creates too much cognitive dissonance if they question the sort of right-wing authoritarian leader they crave so badly.

Hypocrites of the highest order -- they ignore their professed values whenever they decide someone they like isn't living up to them.

This cycle has shown the mendacity of conservatives and Republicans.  They say they are for minimum government, yet they have not hesitated to enlarge government where they want (eg, Border Patrol).  They say they are for austerity, yet they have added $-trillions to the debt and cost of living with their corporate taxes, tariffs, and this ridiculous southern border wall…which Mexico was going to pay for!!

Now they want socialism for farmers due to the effect on the midwestern region due to their silly economic wars all over the globe.  Trump’s fix for all these problems, which he has created, is to reimpose the same measures that Obama crafted, only give them a new name.  NAFTA, for example, has been reinstated, only with a different name: the United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement (USMCA).

This is a classic conservative trick: use a new name to obscure the fact that you champion what your predecessor did.  It’s like when Pac-Bell was taken over by Southwestern Bell…hell, when the coast was clear, they even reinstated the super name: AT&T.  After all of his promises, Trump has utterly failed to produce anything.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri May 24, 2019 8:36 pm

They did the same with George W. Bush. I remember so many conservatives came out against Bush's bank bailout only after Obama won the election, and then they tried to pin the bailout on Obama.

Rush Limbaugh said on the air that he was glad he didn't have to "carry water" for Bush anymore. Like he couldn't have spoken out before!

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Post by eddie on Fri May 24, 2019 8:41 pm

Whether it’s perceived to be “hypercritical” or some “other” bad thing....he did a good thing for farmers...right?

So I’m not understanding the thread and it’s negative comments.

He does something good for American farmers and it turns into “ooooh he’s a baddie because blah blah”

Like I always say, if you don’t like someone you ain’t gonna like them even when they do something you like.

Go figure.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri May 24, 2019 8:47 pm

eddie wrote:Whether it’s perceived to be “hypercritical” or some “other” bad thing....he did a good thing for farmers...right?

So I’m not understanding the thread and it’s negative comments.

He does something good for American farmers and it turns into “ooooh he’s a baddie because blah blah”

Like I always say, if you don’t like someone you ain’t gonna like them even when they do something you like.

Go figure.

Because he only helped the farmers after he hurt them.

Because when Obama bailed out the auto industry, Trump said Obama was "ruining American industry," back in 2012, and seven years later, he's bailing out the farming industry and acting like he never said this sort of thing was ruinous for America.

Because he only said that about Obama because Obama is someone Trump doesn't like.

Because American conservatives support all sorts of ideas that liberals propose -- UNTIL they're told that liberals proposed them.

Obamacare was entirely built on ideas the Republicans had back in the early 1990s. That's a big reason Obama thought Republicans would support them. But then they turned around and baldfaced lied about their positions, branding Obamacare as socialism.

It's utter hypocrisy, no two ways about it. And if it were a liberal who embraced a conservative idea that he'd always said was horrible, I'd pull him up on it too. I have -- in the cases of Obama not getting rid of the PATRIOT Act and the drone program, among other things.

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Post by eddie on Fri May 24, 2019 8:54 pm

Yeah he was hypercritical and because because because....all politicians are hypocrites, or perceived hypocrites at some point in their career.

But at least he owned it and rectified it and that’s good, right? It’s good news, right? He did something positive, right? Is Trump a socialist? 2190311264

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Post by eddie on Fri May 24, 2019 9:00 pm

I think my point is this:

You don’t like someone because they do and say things you don’t like, them they do something that is good and you still find a reason to dislike what they did?

I find that really unfathomable. I can’t help it.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri May 24, 2019 9:01 pm

eddie wrote:Yeah he was hypercritical and because because because....all politicians are hypocrites, or perceived hypocrites at some point in their career.

But at least he owned it and rectified it and that’s good, right?  It’s good news, right? He did something positive, right? Is Trump a socialist? 2190311264

It's good that he did something good -- after causing the harm in the first place.

And he hasn't owned anything, he's just tried to contain the damage that he caused. He hasn't said that propping up an industry is really the right thing to do and he was wrong to criticize the practice before.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri May 24, 2019 9:03 pm

eddie wrote:I think my point is this:

You don’t like someone because they do and say things you don’t like, them they do something that is good and you still find a reason to dislike what they did?

I find that really unfathomable. I can’t help it.  

But the only good he's done is cleaning up his own mess. I wouldn't look at a robber who returned the money he'd stolen and say, ah, what a good guy. I'd just say he was returning what he'd stolen.

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Post by eddie on Fri May 24, 2019 9:03 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:Yeah he was hypercritical and because because because....all politicians are hypocrites, or perceived hypocrites at some point in their career.

But at least he owned it and rectified it and that’s good, right?  It’s good news, right? He did something positive, right? Is Trump a socialist? 2190311264

It's good that he did something good -- after causing the harm in the first place.

And he hasn't owned anything, he's just tried to contain the damage that he caused. He hasn't said that propping up an industry is really the right thing to do and he was wrong to criticize the practice before.

Yes I understand all of that but what not just say...”that’s good news..at least he righted his wrongs”?

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Post by eddie on Fri May 24, 2019 9:04 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:I think my point is this:

You don’t like someone because they do and say things you don’t like, them they do something that is good and you still find a reason to dislike what they did?

I find that really unfathomable. I can’t help it.  

But the only good he's done is cleaning up his own mess. I wouldn't look at a robber who returned the money he'd stolen and say, ah, what a good guy. I'd just say he was returning what he'd stolen.

And kudos to the robber for doing the right thing eventually. Right?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri May 24, 2019 9:08 pm

eddie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:Yeah he was hypercritical and because because because....all politicians are hypocrites, or perceived hypocrites at some point in their career.

But at least he owned it and rectified it and that’s good, right?  It’s good news, right? He did something positive, right? Is Trump a socialist? 2190311264

It's good that he did something good -- after causing the harm in the first place.

And he hasn't owned anything, he's just tried to contain the damage that he caused. He hasn't said that propping up an industry is really the right thing to do and he was wrong to criticize the practice before.

Yes I understand all of that but what not just say...”that’s good news..at least he righted his wrongs”?

I'll give him that little speck of credit -- he's trying to right his wrong. But I still get to call him up on his hypocrisy.

Even if he'd only said, "Now I get why presidents sometimes have to do this," I'd have a hell of a lot more respect for him than now, when he's just plodding along and hoping nobody notices that he always said industries shouldn't be bailed out.

It's like if you had a friend who said he'd never eat sushi, and when he eventually tried it, he said he loved it. You'd say, "So you were wrong about sushi," wouldn't you? You'd expect him to acknowledge he'd been wrong before.

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Post by eddie on Fri May 24, 2019 9:13 pm

When do you ever hear ANY politician say he was wrong in public?

Isn’t this thread about a good story? What if it was someone you “half-liked”? Would you need that person to be so vocal about his about-turn?

And, if Trump did say all the things you wanted him to, would that even be enough? Would you then say, “Oh he’s just covering his back?”

Can he ever win? Really? Ever?

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Post by Maddog on Fri May 24, 2019 9:40 pm

Original Quill wrote:Trump just announced a grant of $16-billion to be given to mid-western farmers, to compensate for what it costs them in business lost from China owing to his tariffs.

NBC wrote:Trump administration unveils $16 billion bailout to farmers hurt by China trade war
PUBLISHED THU, MAY 23 2019  9:23 AM

The Trump administration on Thursday announced a $16 billion trade aid program for American farmers that includes a three-pronged aid package for American farmers who have been hurt by the U.S. trade war with China.

The centerpiece is cash payments totaling $14.5 billion to producers of a variety of crops as well as dairy and pork producers impacted by retaliatory tariffs. U.S. tariff revenue collected by the Treasury would be used to support the program, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

“The package we’re announcing today ensures that farmers will not bear the brunt of those trade practices by China or any other nation,” Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue said Thursday on a press call.

In addition, the government plans bulk purchases of about $1.4 billion of fresh produce and other food products impacted by tariffs. Food would be used to help food banks, pantries and school meal programs.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/23/trump-to-give-16-billion-to-farmers-hurt-by-trade-war-sonny-perdue.html

So, his fix for the problems he creates in global economics is socialism?  I wonder how much of this government welfare will go to agribusiness.

Trump is a statist, like you.

Welfare does not equate to socialism. The revenue for welfare is raised through taxation of a capitalist economy, in places like the US, UK and Sweden.

If he nationalized the farms, he would be a socialist.

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Post by Maddog on Fri May 24, 2019 9:42 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:Arrow

Selective socialism...

A.k.a.  "Pork barrelling"..

Won't see any complaints from DYK, smelly' or gelico as long as it's Trump doing it.  Imagine the whinging, though, (especially from Maddog) if it had been Democrats promoting those subsidies..

I will call out either party for subsidies. I think both parties are full of damn fools.

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Post by Maddog on Fri May 24, 2019 9:44 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Original Quill wrote:It's still socialism, flat out.  He's capitalizing an industry...and it's a loser to boot.  First coal, and now soy beans.

All he's going to do is convince the world, and China, how monopsonistic and vulnerable the US is.  I mean, how strong is a market economy when you've got to capitalize it.

None of our right-wingers or libertarian types will comment on this, because it creates too much cognitive dissonance if they question the sort of right-wing authoritarian leader they crave so badly.

Hypocrites of the highest order -- they ignore their professed values whenever they decide someone they like isn't living up to them.

I commented.

And I don't have a problem saying this bailout is because of a stupid trade policy.

And libertarian and authoritarian are on opposite ends of the fucking spectrum.

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Post by Maddog on Fri May 24, 2019 9:46 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:

None of our right-wingers or libertarian types will comment on this, because it creates too much cognitive dissonance if they question the sort of right-wing authoritarian leader they crave so badly.

Hypocrites of the highest order -- they ignore their professed values whenever they decide someone they like isn't living up to them.

This cycle has shown the mendacity of conservatives and Republicans.  They say they are for minimum government, yet they have not hesitated to enlarge government where they want (eg, Border Patrol).  They say they are for austerity, yet they have added $-trillions to the debt and cost of living with their corporate taxes, tariffs, and this ridiculous southern border wall…which Mexico was going to pay for!!

Now they want socialism for farmers due to the effect on the midwestern region due to their silly economic wars all over the globe.  Trump’s fix for all these problems, which he has created, is to reimpose the same measures that Obama crafted, only give them a new name.  NAFTA, for example, has been reinstated, only with a different name: the United States–Mexico–Canada Agreement (USMCA).

This is a classic conservative trick: use a new name to obscure the fact that you champion what your predecessor did.  It’s like when Pac-Bell was taken over by Southwestern Bell…hell, when the coast was clear, they even reinstated the super name: AT&T.  After all of his promises, Trump has utterly failed to produce anything.

Yes, there isn't that big of a difference between the two parties any more.

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Post by eddie on Fri May 24, 2019 9:47 pm

eddie wrote:When do you ever hear ANY politician say he was wrong in public?

Isn’t this thread about a good story? What if it was someone you “half-liked”? Would you need that person to be so vocal about his about-turn?  

And, if Trump did say all the things you wanted him to, would that even be enough? Would you then say, “Oh he’s just covering his back?”

Can he ever win? Really? Ever?

The real question is: do we ever just say “Oh that’s a good thing” if it’s someone we (decided to) dislike?
I don’t like the guy (from what I read as I don’t KNOW him) but I can be objective.

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Post by Maddog on Fri May 24, 2019 9:52 pm

eddie wrote:
eddie wrote:When do you ever hear ANY politician say he was wrong in public?

Isn’t this thread about a good story? What if it was someone you “half-liked”? Would you need that person to be so vocal about his about-turn?  

And, if Trump did say all the things you wanted him to, would that even be enough? Would you then say, “Oh he’s just covering his back?”

Can he ever win? Really? Ever?

The real question is: do we ever just say “Oh that’s a good thing” if it’s someone we (decided to) dislike?
I don’t like the guy (from what I read as I don’t KNOW him) but I can be objective.

I can't stand AOC.

But she was correct in her stance on Amazon getting all of those subsidies to move to NYC.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri May 24, 2019 9:52 pm

Okay, let me dive into this a bit. When Trump started to emerge as a serious candidate, I tried to find reasons he might be good.

I thought, number one, he's certainly not a traditional Republican. For one thing, and you know how big of an issue this is for me, in a book he published around the year 2000, Trump said that the United States needed a government-funded health care system.

I'll go farther and say that if Trump were to actually implement a good health care system that did right by the American people, I'd be forced to say I really appreciated and admired him for that. Of course, here we are near the end of his first four-year term and all he's tried to do is repeal what good Obama did for American health care.

I got excited when Trump seemed to get excited about improving America's highways, bridges and other infrastructure. They're crumbling, and fixing them would not only help a lot of Americans that way, it would create a lot of jobs.

But then Trump came out with a bill to fix the infrastructure and it had much more to do with giving generous tax breaks to real estate developers (like him and his family) than with putting Americans to work fixing crumbling schools and sewage systems.

My main reason for disliking Trump is that he's not helping the American people or anybody else, except perhaps Russia, who he has eased our sanctions on. If he were to try to do something that actually helped average Americans, I would start to like him better.

That's why I liked Obama -- he tried to improve health care, employment, etc. The things he set out to do, for the most part, would have helped Americans.

The things he did do helped me and my family. My sister had no health insurance until Obamacare was enacted. For my part, an Obama program allowed me to exchange a shitty car that I had for a much newer and better car.

The reason I like one politician or party over another is nearly all down to what they want to do for, or to, people. Sure, personality plays a small role, but I always look at members of the government as people I and other Americans pay to do a job. I just want them to be effective, and if they are, I don't worry too much about their other qualities.

I can't give anybody too much credit for simply righting one of their own wrongs. It's like how Chris Rock says he hates it when people try to act like they're good because they've never gone to jail: "Your'e not SUPPOSED to go to jail!" So Trump helps the farmers he's hurt and I'm like, "You weren't supposed to hurt them in the first place!"

Nope. No plus-ones or thumbs-up for fixing your own mistake. To me, that leaves a politician in neutral territory, not positive territory.

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Post by Maddog on Fri May 24, 2019 9:55 pm

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."


Above is the oath president's take. I would love to see one just fulfill that promise.

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Post by phildidge on Fri May 24, 2019 10:04 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Okay, let me dive into this a bit. When Trump started to emerge as a serious candidate, I tried to find reasons he might be good.
Didge wrote:Really? As I never saw you once value his good and bad points. Only bad.
I thought, number one, he's certainly not a traditional Republican. For one thing, and you know how big of an issue this is for me, in a book he published around the year 2000, Trump said that the United States needed a government-funded health care system.
Didge wrote:Really? How is he a traditional Republican? He holds views that are also at odds with Republicans and you claim to be a journalist?

I'll go farther and say that if Trump were to actually implement a good health care system that did right by the American people, I'd be forced to say I really appreciated and admired him for that. Of course, here we are near the end of his first four-year term and all he's tried to do is repeal what good Obama did for American health care.
Didge wrote:What President has introduced a good health system? Seriously, this is your base standard point? Of all the previous Democrats you voted for. Did you voted based on their failures on this?.

I got excited when Trump seemed to get excited about improving America's highways, bridges and other infrastructure. They're crumbling, and fixing them would not only help a lot of Americans that way, it would create a lot of jobs.
Didge wrote:I am no fan of trump, but that has to go down as desperate. Why now in his Presidency is this now a problem to fix?

But then Trump came out with a bill to fix the infrastructure and it had much more to do with giving generous tax breaks to real estate developers (like him and his family) than with putting Americans to work fixing crumbling schools and sewage systems.
Didge wrote:The US economy is doing better than most. More people have jobs and money. What is wrong with that. One thing you cannot fault Trump on is, his economic success.

My main reason for disliking Trump is that he's not helping the American people or anybody else, except perhaps Russia, who he has eased our sanctions on. If he were to try to do something that actually helped average Americans, I would start to like him better.
Didge wrote:How is he not helping the American people? Anymore than any previous President? You hold him to a standard, but what standard are you holding him against others on economy?.

That's why I liked Obama -- he tried to improve health care, employment, etc. The things he set out to do, for the most part, would have helped Americans.
Didge wrote:I agree he tried, but did it actually help.

The things he did do helped me and my family. My sister had no health insurance until Obamacare was enacted. For my part, an Obama program allowed me to exchange a shitty car that I had for a much newer and better car.
Didge wrote:I am sure many people could make the same lame caims to how Trump has helped them. Hence irrelevant and poor argument based on appeal to emotion.

The reason I like one politician or party over another is nearly all down to what they want to do for, or to, people. Sure, personality plays a small role, but I always look at members of the government as people I and other Americans pay to do a job. I just want them to be effective, and if they are, I don't worry too much about their other qualities.
Didge wrote:As do we all and hence Obama did many wrongs, but you turn a blind eye to this. I dont with Trump, as I dfont hold a bias as you do.

I can't give anybody too much credit for simply righting one of their own wrongs. It's like how Chris Rock says he hates it when people try to act like they're good because they've never gone to jail: "Your'e not SUPPOSED to go to jail!" So Trump helps the farmers he's hurt and I'm like, "You weren't supposed to hurt them in the first place!"
Didge wrote:You are not supposed to go to jail? Are you taking the view point that now criminals are all vitctims?

Nope. No plus-ones or thumbs-up for fixing your own mistake. To me, that leaves a politician in neutral territory, not positive territory.

Sorry, at what point were you neutral here?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri May 24, 2019 10:33 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Okay, let me dive into this a bit. When Trump started to emerge as a serious candidate, I tried to find reasons he might be good.
Didge wrote:Really? As I never saw you once value his good and bad points. Only bad.

I don't share my every last thought with the forum.

Ben Reilly wrote:I thought, number one, he's certainly not a traditional Republican. For one thing, and you know how big of an issue this is for me, in a book he published around the year 2000, Trump said that the United States needed a government-funded health care system.
Didge wrote:Really? How is he a traditional Republican? He holds views that are also at odds with Republicans and you claim to be a journalist?

I just said he WASN'T a traditional Republican. Seriously, read before you respond.

Ben Reilly wrote:I'll go farther and say that if Trump were to actually implement a good health care system that did right by the American people, I'd be forced to say I really appreciated and admired him for that. Of course, here we are near the end of his first four-year term and all he's tried to do is repeal what good Obama did for American health care.
Didge wrote:What President has introduced a good health system? Seriously, this is your base standard point? Of all the previous Democrats you voted for. Did you voted based on their failures on this?.

I voted for Bill Clinton, who tried to improve the health care system, and Obama, who did.

Ben Reilly wrote:I got excited when Trump seemed to get excited about improving America's highways, bridges and other infrastructure. They're crumbling, and fixing them would not only help a lot of Americans that way, it would create a lot of jobs.
Didge wrote:I am no fan of trump, but that has to go down as desperate. Why now in his Presidency is this now a problem to fix?

It's a problem for America to fix. Trump is president, he should take the leadership on this pressing need.

Ben Reilly wrote:But then Trump came out with a bill to fix the infrastructure and it had much more to do with giving generous tax breaks to real estate developers (like him and his family) than with putting Americans to work fixing crumbling schools and sewage systems.
Didge wrote:The US economy is doing better than most. More people have jobs and money. What is wrong with that. One thing you cannot fault Trump on is, his economic success.

He's riding a trend that happened much earlier, under Obama. He's not done one thing that has made the economy better; usually it's more along the lines of freaking out the stock markets with his latest bombastic bluster.

Ben Reilly wrote:My main reason for disliking Trump is that he's not helping the American people or anybody else, except perhaps Russia, who he has eased our sanctions on. If he were to try to do something that actually helped average Americans, I would start to like him better.
Didge wrote:How is he not helping the American people? Anymore than any previous President? You hold him to a standard, but what standard are you holding him against others on economy?.

He has done literally nothing for the average American. Name one thing Trump has done to help average people. I can name plenty of things Obama did to help the ordinary American.

Ben Reilly wrote:That's why I liked Obama -- he tried to improve health care, employment, etc. The things he set out to do, for the most part, would have helped Americans.
Didge wrote:I agree he tried, but did it actually help.

Google the people who would have been dead by now if Obamacare hadn't been passed.

Ben Reilly wrote:The things he did do helped me and my family. My sister had no health insurance until Obamacare was enacted. For my part, an Obama program allowed me to exchange a shitty car that I had for a much newer and better car.
Didge wrote:I am sure many people could make the same lame caims to how Trump has helped them. Hence irrelevant and poor argument based on appeal to emotion.

It's not an appeal to emotion to say one president helped my family and the other did not. It's literally the only good reason to have a government.

Ben Reilly wrote:The reason I like one politician or party over another is nearly all down to what they want to do for, or to, people. Sure, personality plays a small role, but I always look at members of the government as people I and other Americans pay to do a job. I just want them to be effective, and if they are, I don't worry too much about their other qualities.
Didge wrote:As do we all and hence Obama did many wrongs, but you turn a blind eye to this. I dont with Trump, as I dfont hold a bias as you do.

I pointed out Obama's flaws on several occasions, but I'm happy to sum up my main problems with him again. 1) He didn't prosecute criminals within the Bush administration. 2) He didn't repeal the PATRIOT Act. 3) He didn't discontinue the drone program. 4) He didn't push hard enough to make Obamacare everything it could have been.

Ben Reilly wrote:I can't give anybody too much credit for simply righting one of their own wrongs. It's like how Chris Rock says he hates it when people try to act like they're good because they've never gone to jail: "Your'e not SUPPOSED to go to jail!" So Trump helps the farmers he's hurt and I'm like, "You weren't supposed to hurt them in the first place!"
Didge wrote:You are not supposed to go to jail? Are you taking the view point that now criminals are all vitctims?

No, Chris Rock was saying that you don't get to take credit for never having been thrown in jail. It doesn't make you a good person to follow the law.

Ben Reilly wrote:Nope. No plus-ones or thumbs-up for fixing your own mistake. To me, that leaves a politician in neutral territory, not positive territory.

Didge wrote:Sorry, at what point were you neutral here?

I'm not the PUSA.


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Post by phildidge on Fri May 24, 2019 10:37 pm

Fix your post that is a mess Ben

Then I will reply

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri May 24, 2019 11:49 pm

phildidge wrote:Fix your post that is a mess Ben

Then I will reply

Better now? Laughing

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Post by phildidge on Fri May 24, 2019 11:51 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
phildidge wrote:Fix your post that is a mess Ben

Then I will reply

Better now? Laughing
-

Nope, now it seems, I am saying the nonsense you are saying

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Post by eddie on Fri May 24, 2019 11:54 pm

phildidge wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
phildidge wrote:Fix your post that is a mess Ben

Then I will reply

Better now? Laughing
-

Nope, now it seems, I am saying the nonsense you are saying

You’re saying the nonsense he is saying? How does that even work? Razz

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Post by phildidge on Sat May 25, 2019 12:01 am

eddie wrote:
phildidge wrote:
-

Nope, now it seems, I am saying the nonsense you are saying

You’re saying the nonsense he is saying? How does that even work? Razz

My name is assigned to his comments

I never said them

Do you always laugh to hide your insecurities Eddie?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat May 25, 2019 12:03 am

phildidge wrote:
eddie wrote:
phildidge wrote:
-

Nope, now it seems, I am saying the nonsense you are saying

You’re saying the nonsense he is saying? How does that even work? Razz

My name is assigned to his comments

I never said them

Do you always laugh to hide your insecurities Eddie?

Again, you're not actually reading. What is the point of this?

If you READ my comment, you'll see that your name is in front of everything you said.

Seriously, just LOOK. You're killing me.

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Post by phildidge on Sat May 25, 2019 12:07 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
phildidge wrote:

My name is assigned to his comments

I never said them

Do you always laugh to hide your insecurities Eddie?

Again, you're not actually reading. What is the point of this?

If you READ my comment, you'll see that your name is in front of everything you said.

Seriously, just LOOK. You're killing me.

Yes please look. They are associated with my name


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Post by phildidge on Sat May 25, 2019 12:35 am

At last he has finally corrected them

Well done Ben and now I will answer

1) Copout. If you value points on someone, how is it you never value their good points? In regards to Trump. Myth 1 debunked. YOu claim you dont always share this? Whi do you share this to? Yourself in the mirror? How is anyone to know your views, if you do not share? Hence you are talking bollocks and lying.

2) But you are claiming again a subjective view that needs to be fixed, when the economy is thriving. So what needs to be ficed?

3) Where is the stats he is riding a trend? That is a claim you are not backing up an clearly having your bed time story as CNN. I mean if he was bad, why is there not a down turn trend? Can you not see how your view makes no sense and is based on sheer bollocks? I dislike trump, but when people like you lie, is really appalling and you were a journalist. Frankly, I am surprised you were never fired based on that load of lies.

4)Have jobs, more money and wealth etc. He hs done plenty you dfont want to admit

5) Fallacy argument and an appeal to emotion. You need to prove they would not have survived under Trump

6) Oh I see so where only one President helped your family, and all the rest did not. That is the bases of your argument against the present one? Since when did they need his help?

7) I can sum up Obama in one sentence wqith a picture

Is Trump a socialist? Chamberlain-declares-peace-for-our-time-75-years-agos-featured-photo

7) Let me get this right. You are saying it does not take being a good person to follow the law. Of course you are a good person if you follow the law and not effect the well being of others, based on Us laws. How are they not good people? What he is arguing is bullshit. He is trying to excuse crime by criminal acts of criminals


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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat May 25, 2019 12:39 am

Didge, you seem to be fucked in your head

Put down the bottle and trot off to bed

Your posts, poorly written, now make little sense

You've bored me so much I can't even think of a rhyme

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Post by phildidge on Sat May 25, 2019 12:43 am

Ben Reilly wrote:Didge, you seem to be fucked in your head

Put down the bottle and trot off to bed

Your posts, poorly written, now make little sense

You've bored me so much I can't even think of a rhyme


And we are backed to my point where personal views are allowed by mods

Hence why posters are constantly allowed to make views on my mental heath

What this shows, is any view I have. Is taken  as insanity and not taken based on its validity. Yet taken that I have mental health issues

Hence Ben is closeminded

I know now Ben has had too much whiskey as he is now insulting and doing what I would normally do

Why would I want to stay on a forum when the owner openly thinks I have mental health issues

He cannot answer my replies and uses mental health as a weapon to get out of answering 

How prejudice is Ben?

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Post by phildidge on Sat May 25, 2019 12:51 am

Hence why i am leaving this forum. Any view I have is dictated by two dictators. Who  are now self proclaimed medical scientists and use this to deny people views. Who I believe happen to be the most clueless on medical science and yet I have to sit here and be told I am fucked in the head

Go figure

Laters people. This is not debate, but ben and eddie wanting people to agree with them

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Post by phildidge on Sat May 25, 2019 1:01 am

My one last simple point is this

Neither Ben or Eddie have any clue on mental health and as seen one decides i am fucked in the head

Its no wonder, that other posters can say this all the time also. When you have the owner assign to this claim. Hence why he will do nothing and i dont want him to either. I am simple stating the cause starts with him. In that what he allows, goes.

All the best everyone

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sat May 25, 2019 1:59 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Trump just announced a grant of $16-billion to be given to mid-western farmers, to compensate for what it costs them in business lost from China owing to his tariffs.



So, his fix for the problems he creates in global economics is socialism?  I wonder how much of this government welfare will go to agribusiness.

Trump is a statist, like you.

Welfare does not equate to socialism. The revenue for welfare is raised through taxation of a capitalist economy, in places like the US, UK and Sweden.

If he nationalized the farms, he would be a socialist.

Rolling Eyes

Yet again you show your economic ignorance, Maddog...

If he nationalised the farms, he would be a "communist"...

Socialism isn't the opposite of capitalism.

Rather, it's that flexible/transient region along the road between authoritarian communism in the upper left quadrant of the "political spectrum", and totally "free" markets in the lower right (i.e. that 'Libertarian' paradise of low taxes, no welfare and minimal governance..).

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Post by Lurker on Sat May 25, 2019 3:30 am

Trump is a Nazi wannabe. He worships Adolf Hitler.

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Post by Eilzel on Sat May 25, 2019 5:07 am

Lurker wrote:Trump is a Nazi wannabe. He worships Adolf Hitler.

He is a massive, obnoxious geranium, for sure - but to say he worships Hitler might be overstating it Laughing

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Post by Cass on Sat May 25, 2019 5:14 am

A socialist??? God now I have heard everything Is Trump a socialist? 3489511464

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Post by Maddog on Sat May 25, 2019 4:00 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Trump is a statist, like you.

Welfare does not equate to socialism. The revenue for welfare is raised through taxation of a capitalist economy, in places like the US, UK and Sweden.

If he nationalized the farms, he would be a socialist.

Rolling Eyes

Yet again you show your economic ignorance,  Maddog...

If he nationalised the farms, he would be a "communist"...

Socialism isn't the opposite of capitalism.

Rather,  it's that flexible/transient region along the road between authoritarian communism in the upper left quadrant of the "political spectrum",  and totally "free" markets in the lower right  (i.e. that 'Libertarian' paradise of low taxes, no welfare and minimal governance..).

Socialism is an economic system, in which the means of production are owned socially or by the government. Nationalizing a particular industry isn't communism. That's why the NHS in England is not considered a communist Institution.

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Post by Original Quill on Sat May 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Rolling Eyes

Yet again you show your economic ignorance,  Maddog...

If he nationalised the farms, he would be a "communist"...

Socialism isn't the opposite of capitalism.

Rather,  it's that flexible/transient region along the road between authoritarian communism in the upper left quadrant of the "political spectrum",  and totally "free" markets in the lower right  (i.e. that 'Libertarian' paradise of low taxes, no welfare and minimal governance..).

Socialism is an economic system, in which the means of production are owned socially or by the government.

By any collectivity (hence: social).  The original socialist organizations were the Guilds.  In Czechoslovakia, during the Prague Spring, they devised a system of "councils" which were not part of the government.  But, admittedly, the government is the obvious choice.

Maddog wrote:Nationalizing a particular industry isn't communism.

Communism and Marxism are political subjects.  They incorporate socialism, but have a much different view of the new industrial order.  They are political theory.

Maddog wrote:That's why the NHS in England is not considered a communist Institution.

The NHS is a socialist organization, as is the US Military, the US Veterans Administration, and most emergency services everywhere.

Since the Paris Commune of 1871, there has never been a communist organization.  The writings of Karl Marx involve a state, of which socialism is an internal function in the stage of development.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat May 25, 2019 8:28 pm

Not many people, particularly libertarians, seem to know that Marx's end goal was the abolition of the state!

The rest of his theory had to do with the transition from capitalism to collectivist anarchy. He wouldn't recognize a single "communist" country in existence today as truly communist.

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Post by Original Quill on Sat May 25, 2019 9:06 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Not many people, particularly libertarians, seem to know that Marx's end goal was the abolition of the state!

The rest of his theory had to do with the transition from capitalism to collectivist anarchy. He wouldn't recognize a single "communist" country in existence today as truly communist.

Correct.  That's why I classify Marx under politics, not under economics (to be fair, Marx invented the study of political-economy).  The Third Komintern (third international, 1919 to 34) was supposed to bring nations together, in anticipation of an eventual disappearance of the state.  Unfortunately, it degenerated under Stalin into an instrument of Soviet politics.

The 'abolition of the state' is as much about politics, as the creation of a new state.  In any case, socialism is a form of organization of production, whereas Marxism (and communism) is about matters (or the eventual evolution) of the state.  The two are often confused.

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Post by Maddog on Sat May 25, 2019 9:14 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Not many people, particularly libertarians, seem to know that Marx's end goal was the abolition of the state!

The rest of his theory had to do with the transition from capitalism to collectivist anarchy. He wouldn't recognize a single "communist" country in existence today as truly communist.

I know what Marx's end goal was.

So who are you talking about?

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noun

The policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest.
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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat May 25, 2019 11:46 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Not many people, particularly libertarians, seem to know that Marx's end goal was the abolition of the state!

The rest of his theory had to do with the transition from capitalism to collectivist anarchy. He wouldn't recognize a single "communist" country in existence today as truly communist.

I know what Marx's end goal was.  

So who are you talking about?

I used to be part of a forum called NewsHabit, which I don't think even exists anymore. A number of other users here come from there as well, but the point is, the forum had a lot of people who, you know, really liked Ron Paul. And they surfed mises.org a lot and, well, they thought gold is really great. You know what I'm saying. Wink

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