Smelly, are you brave enough?

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Post by eddie on Sat May 11, 2019 12:07 am

First topic message reminder :

Okay, I am making this thread so that I can talk to you and really understand what it is, that you’re trying to say without any bullshit.

See, I don’t see people the way that others do and whilst I know that you and I disagree on many topics, I can still listen to you without being offended or triggered or self-righteous.  I’m not special, but I do have an ability to let someone have an opinion and not really be offended by it.
And neither do I have a need to be right.

So I am asking you to talk to me, here, answer my questions and I’ll answer yours and this will be a chance for you to stand up and be counted without the macho bullshit or the need to be arsey, to get your point across.  

You intrigue me and I’ll tell you why: you’re not stupid and you’re not a troll yet you continually let yourself down by being an arse when you try to get your point across. I understand this because I can be a little like that myself if I feel that I have a huge point to make without using too many words.  I become harsh and blunt.

So this is my request. Let you and I tackle some of your points without the bullshit of sidetracking or name-calling or the need to be the big-I-am.

If you get annoyed and call me an idiot or you use harsh language I won’t be bothered - those things rarely annoy me tbh - I’ll only get fixated on the point you may be making if you don’t answer with honesty.

I don’t care how it ends or whether we agree - the point isn’t about agreeing in any case - I just want you to be open and honest for once.  

If you don’t want to partake I’ll dump the thread in the bin.

No one else is permitted to post on here (please people) so there will be no sidestepping.

It isn’t a trick or a trap, I really don’t work that way.

Fancy it?

Let me know.

And you get to decide whether you ask the question or I do.

May be your only chance to be heard....properly.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:56 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Oooh, can others post in this thread now?

I think Smelly's feelings (or non feelings) about others are quite normal. When someone has some bad news, others make the right noises, but if they don't really know that person, or if that person doesn't affect their life, do they really feel that much emotion? They might think they do, but five minutes later they just get on with what they were doing.

I dont agree, and we had a similar conversation about the Manchester arena bomb 2 years ago that killed and injured so many.

It would be insulting to the ones who lost children and loved ones to make out that everyone else felt that deep sadness that will last for ever, obviously no one could who hasn't been in that position...but the grief the people of Manchester suffered, and in many cases still do, was very real.
Empathy and sympathy are basic human emotion that strangers can deeply feel when they see or hear about others tragedies and sadness.

Nonsense. I daresay people were upset, and still get upset if they think about it, but it didn't affect their own lives, and they carry as usual and don't usually think about it. Yes it is insulting to compare a fleeting sadness to the feelings of those who did actually lose loved ones - people who were actually part of their lives and who affected their daily lives.

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Post by Syl on Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:08 pm

It's not nonsense, it's called empathy.
Maybe not everyone has it.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:10 pm

Syl wrote:It's not nonsense, it's called empathy.
Maybe not everyone has it.

So how often do you think about those victims? How often do you cry about them? How often do you feel your life is ruined because of the deaths? Do you know all their names?

Come off it, you're lying to yourself.

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Post by Syl on Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:17 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:It's not nonsense, it's called empathy.
Maybe not everyone has it.

So how often do you think about those victims? How often do you cry about them? How often do you feel your life is ruined because of the deaths? Do you know all their names?

Come off it, you're lying to yourself.
I think about them a lot, it's hard not to when you pass the place the bomb was detonated, the place where my grandson had a part time job.
People who have had terrible tragedies dont cry all the time 2 years later, and they also try not to let their lives be ruined, doesn't mean they are not suffering daily though.
I think your stance on this borders on unfeeling.
Maybe if you walk round Manchesters St Annes square where hundreds of thousands of tributes were left in the aftermath of the bombing, and you can still feel the love and respect for the victims there long after the flowers have been removed....you may feel different.

Then again  maybe you wouldn't.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:22 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

So how often do you think about those victims? How often do you cry about them? How often do you feel your life is ruined because of the deaths? Do you know all their names?

Come off it, you're lying to yourself.
I think about them a lot, it's hard not to when you pass the place the bomb was detonated, the place where my grandson had a part time job.
People who have had terrible tragedies dont cry all the time 2 years later, and they also try not to let their lives be ruined, doesn't mean they are not suffering daily though.
I think your stance on this borders on unfeeling.
Maybe if you walk round Manchesters St Annes square where hundreds of thousands of tributes were left in the aftermath of the bombing, and you can still feel the love and respect for the victims there long after the flowers have been removed....you may feel different.

Then again  maybe you wouldn't.

I'm just realistic. People come out with all these platitudes about knowing how others feel, and how they suffer with them. They don't, they're just saying it in the hope of feeling better about themselves. You can sympathise with someone, but you can't feel what they feel.

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Post by Syl on Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:26 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:
I think about them a lot, it's hard not to when you pass the place the bomb was detonated, the place where my grandson had a part time job.
People who have had terrible tragedies dont cry all the time 2 years later, and they also try not to let their lives be ruined, doesn't mean they are not suffering daily though.
I think your stance on this borders on unfeeling.
Maybe if you walk round Manchesters St Annes square where hundreds of thousands of tributes were left in the aftermath of the bombing, and you can still feel the love and respect for the victims there long after the flowers have been removed....you may feel different.

Then again  maybe you wouldn't.

I'm just realistic. People come out with all these platitudes about knowing how others feel, and how they suffer with them. They don't, they're just saying it in the hope of feeling better about themselves. You can sympathise with someone, but you can't feel what they feel.

I dont think I have ever said someone can feel the same pain of loss if they are not the one involved. I have said the exact opposite in fact.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:31 pm

Well there you are then.

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Post by Syl on Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:36 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Well there you are then.

Not really, you will certainly not hurt in the same way as the person who has suffered the loss, but you can certainly hurt for them.
That I think is where we differ in opinion.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:41 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Well there you are then.

Not really, you will certainly  not hurt in the same way as the person who has suffered the loss, but you can certainly hurt for them.
That I think is where we differ in opinion.

Not for long. After all, you'll have the dinner to make, places to go, and people to see.

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Post by Andy on Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:13 pm

Never has tge first part of my signature been truer, especially when it comes to Raggs.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:18 pm

You're all lying to yourselves, and to others. At least Smelly was honest. Pretending that you care very much about anyone other than yourselves and those who directly affect your lives just makes you fake.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:23 pm

Tell me Andy, when you were pleased when Margaret Thatcher died, did you spare a thought for her relatives who mourned her? Of course you didn't.

If something bad happened to Donald Trump, would you think about how upset his family would be and have empathy with them? Of course you wouldn't.

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Post by Andy on Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:45 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:You're all lying to yourselves, and to others. At least Smelly was honest. Pretending that you care very much about anyone other than yourselves and those who directly affect your lives just makes you fake.
So you support him in his hope that I die of cancer.

Nothing more really needs saying.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:48 pm

Andy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:You're all lying to yourselves, and to others. At least Smelly was honest. Pretending that you care very much about anyone other than yourselves and those who directly affect your lives just makes you fake.
So you support him in his hope that I die of cancer.

Nothing more really needs saying.

You mean you can't or won't answer my questions. Come on Andy, you can do it.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:49 pm

Oh, and I'm not a Tory.

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Post by Andy on Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:35 pm

Give me 1 good reason why I should engage in debate with someone who supports and appears to agree with a poster who wants me to. die of cancer.

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Post by Syl on Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:36 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:You're all lying to yourselves, and to others. At least Smelly was honest. Pretending that you care very much about anyone other than yourselves and those who directly affect your lives just makes you fake.

Smelly and you may be being honest when you imply you dont give a toss for other peoples sufferings, and I do believe you.
Odd though that you seem to think others who do care are lying or fake.

Why do you think everyone is as cold as you are?

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Post by Syl on Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:38 pm

Andy wrote:Give me 1 good reason why I should engage in debate with someone who supports and appears to agree with a poster who wants me to. die of cancer.

To be fair you have wished terrible things on other people, Katy Hopkins for one.
People in glass houses....etc.

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Post by Jules on Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:57 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:You're all lying to yourselves, and to others. At least Smelly was honest. Pretending that you care very much about anyone other than yourselves and those who directly affect your lives just makes you fake.

Well that's not very nice is it?
Be nice!!

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Post by Andy on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:08 am

Raggs calls everyone liars, and still defends SB's hope that I get cancer, and by association presumably she hopes that as well. 
Her arguement is to  conflate what millions think about Trump and Hopkins, neither of whom we interract with, 
"I am not a tory", she bleats, but I bet she won't admit to which party has her vote.
It's probably a proscribed one.i

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Post by Fred Moletrousers on Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:33 am

Andy wrote:Raggs calls everyone liars, and still defends SB's hope that I get cancer, and by association presumably she hopes that as well. 
Her arguement is to  conflate what millions think about Trump and Hopkins, neither of whom we interract with, 
"I am not a tory", she bleats, but I bet she won't admit to which party has her vote.
It's probably a proscribed one.i

So far I have simply been following this discussion, but quite frankly your blatant evasion of a not unreasonable question might well be taken by any reasonably neutral observer to be a tacit indication that you would, indeed, take such an attitude against Trump in the same way that many of you on the Left made the most vile and obscene comments over the death of Margaret Thatcher.

Smelly's comment about you was absolutely indefensible; I've had the ghastly experience of seeing two people close to me, including my wife, die horribly of cancer, and it is something that I would wish on no-one, no matter how much I loathed them.

I also had disgusting comments made about my late wife, including one charming contribution from someone no longer here, thank God, to the effect that she should be dug up and thrown into the septic tank. I don't recall any adverse criticism of that from you, and since it was made by one of your political allies you, by your own apparent standards, must be regarded as guilty by association. (And no, I would never believe that, because I know you to be far above that. But I'm afraid the same argument that you are making applies here.)

But I'm afraid that you yourself attracted SB's extreme reaction of opprobrium with your veiled comment about paedophilia, perhaps the most evil and disgusting accusation that can be levelled against anyone innocent of that perversion. I myself have been a target in another place, so I speak from bitter experience.

This ridiculous assertion of yours that a poster is automatically "guilty by association" of agreeing with extreme offensive and defamatory views simply because they choose not to post a condemnation or even a comment to support your own - or in your case, to read your offensive signature, because they are obviously Tories if they don't agree with you on practically every topic - is indicative of your own pathological hatred of All Tories, real and imagined.

Stop trying to portray yourself some sort of whiter-than-white gallant defender of all that is pure and saintly, Andy. You're not -  you're far from it.
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Post by nicko on Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:33 pm

I'm afraid I have to agree with Fred on that Andy,
What's good for the Goose etc !
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Post by Andy on Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:35 pm

My suggestion that SB holidays on a tropical island were in response to his question whether I supported the raping of kids.!  He was suggesting I was a pedo, not me!!

That was before he wished me dead by cancer, a thing I came close to having this winter. Luckily the shadow on my lung showed fluid and the biopsies were clear.
It seems the mods , quite rightly , have deleted the hateful posts, and SB now only shows as 'guest.
That suggests he has deleted his account or has been banned.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:39 pm

Andy wrote:Raggs calls everyone liars, and still defends SB's hope that I get cancer, and by association presumably she hopes that as well. 
Her arguement is to  conflate what millions think about Trump and Hopkins, neither of whom we interract with, 
"I am not a tory", she bleats, but I bet she won't admit to which party has her vote.
It's probably a proscribed one.i

I didn't mention Hopkins - that was Syl. It was also nothing to do with what you think about Trump, it was to do with how much empathy you would have with his family should something bad happen to him. Likewise, did you have empathy with Mrs Thatcher's family when she died?

You say you don't interact with Trump, which is the point. You don't know him, so would you care if something bad happened to him, even if you didn't dislike him?

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Post by Syl on Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:03 pm

Have some posts been removed from this thread?

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Post by Andy on Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:16 pm

Yes. And Smelly.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:19 pm

I don't think any posts have been removed.

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Post by Andy on Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:21 pm

My bad. The other thread is the TR thread. But Smelly seems to have gone, now shown as 'guest.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:24 pm

Andy wrote:My bad. The other thread is the TR thread. But Smelly seems to have gone, now shown as 'guest.

He deleted his account shortly after that incident.

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Post by Syl on Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:57 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think any posts have been removed.

Late last night Text made a couple more replies, one to me and a long one to you, they have gone, maybe she removed them herself. scratch

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:01 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think any posts have been removed.

Late last night Text made a couple more replies, one to me and a long one to you, they have gone, maybe she removed them herself. scratch

Oh right. I'm glad I didn't see a big long lecture. Laughing

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:43 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:You're all lying to yourselves, and to others. At least Smelly was honest. Pretending that you care very much about anyone other than yourselves and those who directly affect your lives just makes you fake.

Pretending that everyone is just like you just seems to make you unimaginative. What would be fake for some people is quite genuine in others.

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Post by eddie on Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:46 pm

Anyone who gets abusive or nasty during a debate is in the wrong. It’s a fucking debate. Rolling Eyes

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Post by eddie on Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:46 pm

And furthermore, smelly never gets abusive with me but that’s probably because I debate with him like a human adult being.

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Post by Jules on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:04 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

Late last night Text made a couple more replies, one to me and a long one to you, they have gone, maybe she removed them herself. scratch

Oh right. I'm glad I didn't see a big long lecture. Laughing
YOU are the one delivering the lecture cos you were calling everyone a "liar". 

Yes I deleted my post saying you were coming across as cold - simply cos I realised that Syl had already said so - there was no need for me to repeat it.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:10 pm

Jules wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Oh right. I'm glad I didn't see a big long lecture. Laughing
YOU are the one delivering the lecture cos you were calling everyone a "liar". 

Yes I deleted my post saying you were coming across as cold - simply cos I realised that Syl had already said so - there was no need for me to repeat it.

Syl said it was a long post. I'm glad you deleted it - there are only so many ways you can say the same thing. Laughing

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:11 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:You're all lying to yourselves, and to others. At least Smelly was honest. Pretending that you care very much about anyone other than yourselves and those who directly affect your lives just makes you fake.

Pretending that everyone is just like you just seems to make you unimaginative. What would be fake for some people is quite genuine in others.

When was the last time you were badly affected by the misfortune of someone you don't know?

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Post by eddie on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:13 pm

I tend to agree with Rags if I’m honest. A horrible event happening can make one feel sad and perhaps cry a little but does it affect our lives that much?
Not really.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:14 pm

eddie wrote:I tend to agree with Rags if I’m honest. A horrible event happening can make one feel sad and perhaps cry a little but does it affect our lives that much?
Not really.

Do be careful - someone might call you a "Tory". Razz

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:16 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:You're all lying to yourselves, and to others. At least Smelly was honest. Pretending that you care very much about anyone other than yourselves and those who directly affect your lives just makes you fake.

Pretending that everyone is just like you just seems to make you unimaginative. What would be fake for some people is quite genuine in others.

When was the last time you were badly affected by the misfortune of someone you don't know?

Hurricane Katrina is the first thing to spring to mind -- I felt really horrible, seeing those people who died and were just floating in the floodwaters, it was terrible. It made me quite emotional.

But possibly I took your phrase "care very much about anyone" to mean something you didn't intend.

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Post by eddie on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:17 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:I tend to agree with Rags if I’m honest. A horrible event happening can make one feel sad and perhaps cry a little but does it affect our lives that much?
Not really.

Do be careful - someone might call you a "Tory". Razz

Not all that bothered Rags, as you may well know. Labelling and name-calling is just a lazy way of debating so it goes “whoosh” over my my head.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:20 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

When was the last time you were badly affected by the misfortune of someone you don't know?

Hurricane Katrina is the first thing to spring to mind -- I felt really horrible, seeing those people who died and were just floating in the floodwaters, it was terrible. It made me quite emotional.

But possibly I took your phrase "care very much about anyone" to mean something you didn't intend.

OK, but for long did it affect you?

What I'm saying is that people can care but it's sort of fleeting if it doesn't involve people they know personally.

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Post by Jules on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:22 pm

Andy wrote:My bad. The other thread is the TR thread. But Smelly seems to have gone, now shown as 'guest.
Normally I'd say a flouncer is a drama queen but in his case there is no doubt in my mind that he has serious clinical depression, …. going by the things he says about how he feels about life.

You sometimes see people out there IRL who are so downcast they just walk into moving traffic and you have to swerve away, to not hit them, they simply don't care. That is how Smelly comes across sometimes. I don't interact with him (apart from when I explained that Tommy Robinson should not risk making multimillion pound trials collapse.)





Syl wrote:
Late last night Text made a couple more replies, one to me and a long one to you, they have gone, maybe she removed them herself. scratch
Yes I deleted my post to you. It contained no words Syl, just a  >> alien smiley to say that I had awarded you a green.


Last edited by Jules on Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by eddie on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:33 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

When was the last time you were badly affected by the misfortune of someone you don't know?

Hurricane Katrina is the first thing to spring to mind -- I felt really horrible, seeing those people who died and were just floating in the floodwaters, it was terrible. It made me quite emotional.

But possibly I took your phrase "care very much about anyone" to mean something you didn't intend.

OK, but for long did it affect you?

What I'm saying is that people can care but it's sort of fleeting if it doesn't involve people they know personally.

I tend to agree.

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Maybe each person you meet is just a journey.
That has never changed for me.

Why don’t you be my destination? Teach me and be humble in your knowledge.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:37 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

When was the last time you were badly affected by the misfortune of someone you don't know?

Hurricane Katrina is the first thing to spring to mind -- I felt really horrible, seeing those people who died and were just floating in the floodwaters, it was terrible. It made me quite emotional.

But possibly I took your phrase "care very much about anyone" to mean something you didn't intend.

OK, but for long did it affect you?

What I'm saying is that people can care but it's sort of fleeting if it doesn't involve people they know personally.

If by fleeting you mean it doesn't motivate you to take immediate action, okay -- but just because I don't dwell on, say, the families Trump is splitting up at the U.S. border, does not mean I forget about them or that I won't be helping vote Trump out when I finally get the chance.

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Post by Syl on Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:41 pm

Jules wrote:
Andy wrote:My bad. The other thread is the TR thread. But Smelly seems to have gone, now shown as 'guest.
Normally I'd say a flouncer is a drama queen but in his case there is no doubt in my mind that he has serious clinical depression, …. going by the things he says about how he feels about life.

You sometimes see people out there IRL who are so downcast they just walk into moving traffic and you have to swerve away, to not hit them, they simply don't care. That is how Smelly comes across sometimes. I don't interact with him (apart from when I explained that Tony Robinson should not risk making multimillion pound trials collapse.)





Syl wrote:
Late last night Text made a couple more replies, one to me and a long one to you, they have gone, maybe she removed them herself. scratch
Yes I deleted my post to you. It contained no words Syl, just a  >> alien smiley to say that I had awarded you a green.

Thank you.x

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:11 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Well there you are then.

Not really, you will certainly  not hurt in the same way as the person who has suffered the loss, but you can certainly hurt for them.
That I think is where we differ in opinion.

Not for long. After all, you'll have the dinner to make, places to go, and people to see.

What is your overall point here? People can care about issues and people they don't know. Of course it won't be as much as for their friends and family but it is a massuve jump to say they don't really care at all.

When those Thai boys were amazingly found alive AND rescued from the cave last year the outpouring from the public was genuine. The rescuers cared. They'd have cared more had it been their own, but that does not diminish the genuine concern they had.

Humans are resilient. Even when our own family members and friends pass away, most do not spend all the days crying. They make dinner, watch TV, laugh at jokes etc. That doesn't mean they don't care either.

Smelly's (and your) opinion seems to be 'no one really cares' for others - but that is demonstrably untrue.

He takes it further and thinks this should affect our views and decisions. Hence LW altruism in the areas of healthcare, human rights and immigration are perversely cast as somehow bad.

If you don't have empathy, then I'm sorry. But do not assert others are lying just because you aren't able to see how others can.

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Post by Jules on Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:55 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Tell me Andy, when you were pleased when Margaret Thatcher died, did you spare a thought for her relatives who mourned her? Of course you didn't.

If something bad happened to Donald Trump, would you think about how upset his family would be and have empathy with them? Of course you wouldn't.


What's the fuss? scratch  Tho personally I did not say anything negative or insensitive when she passed, I am bored of watching  this kind of guilt-tripping of people who did say negative things.
  
Of course her relatives were sad when she passed, but there was no great tragedy  to "mourn" - she did not die young in some tragic accident, she died peacefully in her own bed, at a ripe old age.  Smelly, are you brave enough?  - Page 2 2190311264

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Post by Jules on Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:57 pm

Her relatives are not naïve fools, surely they were not expecting universal praise of her. They knew she was a public figure, a very powerful one whose decisions impacted hugely on the lives of large swathes of helpless people.


They were happy to spend two decades  enjoying all the ENORMOUS perks & privileges of having a mother  as prime minister.  Her son was notorious for  trading shamelessly in her name all over the globe, & enjoying 101 other perks & freebies galore.  Therefore I'm sure they accepted the rough with the smooth. 


Enough of this pointless guilt-tripping!

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Post by Andy on Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:23 pm

And the families of those who died as a result, directly or indirectly of her cruel policies have the most justification not to grieve for her.
For my part, I had total indifference to her death. I cannot recall being overwhelmed with grief, neither I would be if any of today's politicians passed away, whether it be May, Blair, Corbyn, Farage or Trump
Because I DO NOT KNOW THEM.
Whilst not knowing people on here personally, I know them sufficiently to hold an internet chat with them, so I will harbour feelings.
I was really sad when Irn Bru passed away.

Therein lies the difference.
Actually KNOWING someone.

Btw, Did SB fall on his sword himself, or was he binned?
Not that it really matters.

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