Israel: a Jewish state or a democracy

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

In the wake of Netanyahu's move to incorporate the Golan Heights into the sovereignty of Israel, one must question whether Israel is a Jewish state, or a democracy?

What are they going to do with the many Palestinians who live there? I cannot imagine that they are going to permit the pollution of their Jewishness by allowing Muslims to vote.

Bears watching.

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:07 am

phil wrote:It alread has non-discriminating laws. As well as being a democray

So, you are saying it's not a Jewish state.

phil wrote:So far Quill, you are hjust throwing in falsehoods

Actually, my argument is logical, not factual. You simply anticipate wrongly.

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Post by phildidge on Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:17 am

Original Quill wrote:
phil wrote:It alread has non-discriminating laws. As well as being a democray

So, you are saying it's not a Jewish state.

phil wrote:So far Quill, you are hjust throwing in falsehoods

Actually, my argument is logical, not factual.  You simply anticipate wrongly.


lol, your first claim is incorrect and based on your own views

At no point did I claim its not a jewish state

That is your words/claimes, not mine

hence there is nothing logical here in your reasons

They are simple trying to entice a reaction and end up hugely failing

The reality is, and what is even worse here. based on your legal education. Is that you are clueless on international law, contested land and an occupying power.

Go figure

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Post by Andy on Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:32 am

You win Didge.
You can multi task by winning on several threads
It confirms you are a great mass debator.

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Post by phildidge on Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:05 am

Andy wrote:You win Didge.
You can multi task by winning on several threads
It confirms you are a great mass debator.

Ahhhh envy

This shines through within people who want to be as great as me, but are nothing more than Corbyn sherbets.

They look yellow. Have a bitter after taste. Where once you bite them. They quickly lose all their flavour

Laughing

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Post by Andy on Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:10 am

You actually don't see that EVERYONE here is laughing AT you and consider you a figure of ridicule.

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Post by phildidge on Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:30 am

Andy wrote:You actually don't see that EVERYONE here is laughing AT you and consider you a figure of ridicule.


lol, so lets me get this straight.

You think based on your perception of other posters and based on your envy of me and clear dislike of me. That I should feel shame for others thinking poorly of me?

One mopment

Israel: a Jewish state or a democracy - Page 2 3489511464

So what mate

If you look to others for your needs. What does that say about you, eh?

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:16 pm

Didge, you are a great collector of news stories, and the ideas they involve. Your collection of C&P's is impressive. But collection isn’t what is called for if you want to go further.

If a discussion develops, you reveal that you can't follow-up and think using those ideas. You can't/don't organize your thoughts; you can't distinguish a main point from an example, or a modifier; and so you wander off all over the place...as I say, you lose the plot. I think you realize this, because you too soon turn to insults...which is almost a sort of diversion: stand back, I’m afraid of you and will strike out.

Lord knows I've tried to help you, as I would do with any student. But you resist learning. It's no wonder that your professors were befuddled and finally gave up on you. Any path to learning, you take as a challenge to your agency, and even your masculinity. It's such a shame, because with your enthusiasm and energy you could be excellent. You see every other opinion as a threat, and you've got to get out of that in order to grow.

We never stop growing, so it's a part of life. But you are stuck in the mud with wheels spinning, with this feeling of constantly feeling threatened. No hostility here, partner. I would really like to see you begin to flower.

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Post by phildidge on Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:39 pm

Original Quill wrote:Didge, you are a great collector of news stories, and the ideas they involve.  Your collection of C&P's is impressive.  But collection isn’t what is called for if you want to go further.

If a discussion develops, you reveal that you can't follow-up and think using those ideas.   You can't/don't organize your thoughts; you can't distinguish a main point from an example, or a modifier; and so you wander off all over the place...as I say, you lose the plot.  I think you realize this, because you too soon turn to insults...which is almost a sort of diversion: stand back, I’m afraid of you and will strike out.

Lord knows I've tried to help you, as I would do with any student.  But you resist learning.  It's no wonder that your professors were befuddled and finally gave up on you.  Any path to learning, you take as a challenge to your agency, and even your masculinity.  It's such a shame, because with your enthusiasm and energy you could be excellent.  You see every other opinion as a threat, and you've got to get out of that in order to grow.

We never stop growing, so it's a part of life.  But you are stuck in the mud with wheels spinning, with this feeling of constantly feeling threatened.  No hostility here, partner.  I would really like to see you begin to flower.


1) No relevance to the debate

2) Yet nothing to do with the debate

3) Nothing on topic

4) So thanks for the gibberish and you are not somone I would ever take advice from. Mainly as I think you talk utter tripe. I cerainly take on board what others say here. May I suggest you take a leaf out of the book of the likes of Victor and Eilzel. They always give good advice and are not biased

You have no idea about me, but I did chuckle reading the above invented crap you just posted



Cheers

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:46 am

Israel: a Jewish state or a democracy - Page 2 3489511464

Victor's not biased  !?!

What a load of outright crap..

Victor has always been one of the most biased and bigoted arseholes on NF.

Especially when it comes to the matter of any 'lefty', moderate or centrist poster that he disagrees with --  only need to look at the vitriol he shows towards Andy, veya, sassy, et al..

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Post by phildidge on Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:34 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:Israel: a Jewish state or a democracy - Page 2 3489511464

Victor's not biased  !?!

What a load of outright crap..

Victor has always been one of the most biased and bigoted arseholes on NF.

Especially when it comes to the matter of any 'lefty', moderate or centrist poster that he disagrees with --  only need to look at the vitriol he shows towards Andy, veya, sassy, et al..

He is the least biased and moderates according to the rules and not the poster

He has always gotten on with Sassy, so that view is incorrect


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Post by Original Quill on Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:11 am

phildidge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Has no meaning in the US. BTW, Eva Braun had no children. Rolling Eyes



Simple, stop advertising as the Jewish state and pass non-discrimination laws.


It alread has non-discriminating laws. As well as being a democray

The reality is here and you certainly are not being within any rational reality. Is that you have no clue about international or even israeli law

When you have actually looked into this

Then come back and join me in a decent debate

So far Quill, you are hjust throwing in falsehoods

I look forward to a time when you educate yourself on not only Israel, but international law

The fact i have shown, that non _jews have the same rights as Jews in Israel. Shows, you simple want to ignore facts

Have a good evening, as have to go out

It's not about me. Since you avoid the topic, I gather you have nothing to say about the contradiction of a Jewish state professing to be non-discriminatory.

Every time you include with any exclusivity, you do as much to exclude. A plush country club includes its members, but excludes those who did not join and pay the fee. Likewise, it's well and good to say that Israel is a Jewish state, but who or what are you excluding? If the answer is no one, the term has no meaning.

You say that Israel doesn't discriminate and no one is excluded. Isn't that a bit like the state of South Carolina, with the Confederate flag waving over its capitol? It says: we are the ones who championed slavery, but Oh no, horrors, we don't discriminate! We just like to fly the symbol of slavery over out buildings.

It tells me that they do harbor discriminatory motives, but they want to keep that fact under wraps…just like Dylann Roof did murdering all those church women in South Carolina. This is all the more suspicious when Israel is the country stealing lands from the very people who would be the “excluded”.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:01 am

Original Quill wrote:
phildidge wrote:


It alread has non-discriminating laws. As well as being a democray

The reality is here and you certainly are not being within any rational reality. Is that you have no clue about international or even israeli law

When you have actually looked into this

Then come back and join me in a decent debate

So far Quill, you are hjust throwing in falsehoods

I look forward to a time when you educate yourself on not only Israel, but international law

The fact i have shown, that non _jews have the same rights as Jews in Israel. Shows, you simple want to ignore facts

Have a good evening, as have to go out

You say that Israel doesn't discriminate and no one is excluded.  Isn't that a bit like the state of South Carolina, with the Confederate flag waving over its capitol?  It says: we are the ones who championed slavery, but Oh no, horrors, we don't discriminate!  We just like to fly the symbol of slavery over out buildings.
.

I wonder if [peiople can just read the posts here and wonder if Quill is smocking crack?

He has entered the Cathy Newman zone it seems, yet again

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:36 am

phildidge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

You say that Israel doesn't discriminate and no one is excluded.  Isn't that a bit like the state of South Carolina, with the Confederate flag waving over its capitol?  It says: we are the ones who championed slavery, but Oh no, horrors, we don't discriminate!  We just like to fly the symbol of slavery over out buildings.
.

I wonder if [peiople can just read the posts here and wonder if Quill is smocking crack?

He has entered the Cathy Newman zone it seems, yet again

So you've given up on the point?  I would too, were I debating the contrary.  Any state that touts itself as the Jewish State, and claims to be non-discriminatory, is fooling itself.

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Post by smelly-bandit on Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:15 am

Original Quill wrote:
phildidge wrote:

I wonder if [peiople can just read the posts here and wonder if Quill is smocking crack?

He has entered the Cathy Newman zone it seems, yet again

So you've given up on the point?  I would too, were I debating the contrary.  Any state that touts itself as the Jewish State, and claims to be non-discriminatory, is fooling itself.

What you gonna do bout it??

Nothing, so it's a moot point

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Post by phildidge on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:02 am

Original Quill wrote:
phildidge wrote:

I wonder if [peiople can just read the posts here and wonder if Quill is smocking crack?

He has entered the Cathy Newman zone it seems, yet again

So you've given up on the point?  I would too, were I debating the contrary.  Any state that touts itself as the Jewish State, and claims to be non-discriminatory, is fooling itself.

Not really, I am just bemused at the insane claims you continue to make on Israel and your quite frankly obsession with the only Jewish state.

Not only are your claims completely wrong. Even more from someone who claims to understand law. That you have not the first clue about Israel's laws and how it certainly is a Jewish state and a democracy

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:03 am

smelly-bandit wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

So you've given up on the point?  I would too, were I debating the contrary.  Any state that touts itself as the Jewish State, and claims to be non-discriminatory, is fooling itself.

What you gonna do bout it??

Nothing, so it's a moot point

I agree with you: nothing going on here. I've won the point, and now all is quiet.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:04 am

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:06 am

phil wrote:Not only are your claims completely wrong. Even more from someone who claims to understand law. That you have not the first clue about Israel's laws and how it certainly is a Jewish state and a democracy

What does law have to do with nationalism?  If Israel is going to tout themselves as a Jewish state, people should be aware of it.

I certainly wouldn't visit there.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:09 am

Original Quill wrote:
phil wrote:Not only are your claims completely wrong. Even more from someone who claims to understand law. That you have not the first clue about Israel's laws and how it certainly is a Jewish state and a democracy

What does law have to do with nationalism?  If Israel is going to tout themselves as a Jewish state, people should be aware of it.

I certainly wouldn't visit there.


Everything, as enshrined into Israeli law is equal rights for no-Jews

People are already aware that israel is a Jewish state

Just like France is a French state

Germany is a German state

Holland is a dutch state

etc

etc

It seems, the only Jewish state, has you up in arms

I am sure if you actually visited Israel, your illusions would be shattered. That you would see how in fact and badly you are wrong on the country

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:16 am

France and Germany are nations, not labels.  Israel is a nation, citizens of which are called Israelis.

If Germany were to call itself the Nazi state I would begin to worry.


Last edited by Original Quill on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by phildidge on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:20 am

Original Quill wrote:France and Germany are nationals, not labels.  If Germany were to call itself the Nazi state I would begin to worry.

Utter rubbish and it shows you know very little about each country.

The reality is both nations have enshrined in law their identity and as seen do not discriminate against non-Geramsn or non-French

You simple are making shit up here, to simple make it acceptable to have a go at Israel

I would not mind genuine criticism, but what you present is sheer bullshit on every level

Try telling Germans they are not a German state or the French they are not a French state

They will laughat you

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:22 am

phildidge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:France and Germany are nationals, not labels.  If Germany were to call itself the Nazi state I would begin to worry.

Utter rubbish and it shows you know very little about each country.

The reality is both nations have enshrined in law their identity and as seen do not discriminate against non-Geramsn or non-French

You simple are making shit up here, to simple make it acceptable to have a go at Israel

I would not mind genuine criticism, but what you present is sheer bullshit on every level

Try telling Germans they are not a German state or the French they are not a French state

They will laughat you

So you're saying that Israel has disavowed the label of Jewish state.

I think you are a liar.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:23 am

Original Quill wrote:
phildidge wrote:

Utter rubbish and it shows you know very little about each country.

The reality is both nations have enshrined in law their identity and as seen do not discriminate against non-Geramsn or non-French

You simple are making shit up here, to simple make it acceptable to have a go at Israel

I would not mind genuine criticism, but what you present is sheer bullshit on every level

Try telling Germans they are not a German state or the French they are not a French state

They will laughat you

So you're saying that Israel has disavowed the label of Jewish state.

I think you are a liar.


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Post by Original Quill on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:30 am

You are a liar. You just want to avoid the logic of it all.

Israel calls itself the Jewish state. If, as you argue, it is non-discriminatory, why do they do that? It's a clarion call:we're not Arabs.

It doesn't matter. When the Democrats retake the Senate and Executive branches, we'll see how much aid Israel-the Jewish state, gets under Natanyahu-the friend of the Trump crime family.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:39 am

Original Quill wrote:You are a liar.  You just want to avoid the logic of it all.

Israel calls itself the Jewish state.  If, as you argue, it is non-discriminatory, why do they do that?  It's a clarion call:we're not Arabs.

It doesn't matter.  When the Democrats retake the Senate and Executive branches, we'll see how much aid Israel-the Jewish state, gets under Natanyahu-the friend of the Trump crime family.

How does israel being the only Jewish state, make it discriminatory?

You simple keep invoking a lie yourself, as again. No law allows the discrimination of people within Israel

Arabs have the same rights as Jews in Israel

Just as the Irish people have the same rights as British people in the Uk

Ahhhhhh I see, you want to wage a war on the Jews, when the majority of American Jews are democratic supporters and also Zionists

The reality is here, you think that if a nation identifies by its identity, which is what just about every nation actually does. This some how discriminates against people living there. Its so dumb and stupid, as Israel has equal rights for people residing in its country. Just as many democratic nations do. It also holds resatrictions as other nations do for people who do not live there

Yet for some reason again, you want to single out the only Jewish state

The rise of the left with antisemitism is for all to see in your views here, because you simple do not hold a single other country to the same standard that you do with israel

Its easy to expose your Jew hatred Quill, as there is many countries very much the same as israel that identiy, around their national identity

Maybe you should ask the majority of Israeli Arabs. Who identify as Israeli's and want to be part of Israel and not Palestine

What gets me even more, you seem ill concerned, that the West bank and Gaza has laws. Under Hamas and Fatah, that deny the right for Jews to live there

Even Hitler never accomplished that reality by having a place that was Judenrein

In fact both places identify through an Islamic and Arab identity

Just as many Arab countries do and yet you are silent on this and simple hold Israel to some higher standard, than Arab nations. Its as if you think Arabs are inferior. By only holding Israeli Jews to some higher moral standard here

Antisemitic much? And clearly racist towards Arabs as well now

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Post by smelly-bandit on Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:49 pm

Original Quill wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

What you gonna do bout it??

Nothing, so it's a moot point

I agree with you: nothing going on here.  I've won the point, and now all is quiet.

so now what??

do you think bibi cares that you have declared yourself a winner on some obscure online forum?? he doesnt even know you exist sunshine

what exactly is it you think you have won??

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:30 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I agree with you: nothing going on here.  I've won the point, and now all is quiet.

so now what??

do you think bibi cares that you have declared yourself a winner on some obscure online forum?? he doesnt even know you exist sunshine

what exactly is it you think you have won??

No, bibi doesn't care.  But bibi ought to be concerned about the 70% of American Jews who are Democrats, most of whom hate Trump.  Moreover, 84% of American Jews oppose the incorporation of the Golan Heights into Israel.  Bibi kissing Trump's ass so much in this past election is going to net him a sizable number of votes against aid to Israel.  Remember the first rule of politics: the friend of my enemy is my enemy as well.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:38 pm

Original Quill wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

so now what??

do you think bibi cares that you have declared yourself a winner on some obscure online forum?? he doesnt even know you exist sunshine

what exactly is it you think you have won??

No, bibi doesn't care.  But bibi ought to be concerned about the 70% of American Jews who are Democrats, most of whom hate Trump.  Moreover, 84% of American Jews oppose the incorporation of the Golan Heights into Israel.  Bibi kissing Trump's ass so much in this past election is going to net him a sizable number of votes against aid to Israel.  Remember the first rule of politics: the friend of my enemy is my enemy as well.


Oh I see, you hoid all the people of Israel based on Bibi. Whow does not even hold a majority in Israel. He only does within a coalition

So what this really is about is Trump and not Israel to you

So nowq I see your insanity and lies here

It has nothing to do with israel but Trump

The first rule of politics is never trust a liar, as yourself

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Post by smelly-bandit on Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:04 pm

Original Quill wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

so now what??

do you think bibi cares that you have declared yourself a winner on some obscure online forum?? he doesnt even know you exist sunshine

what exactly is it you think you have won??

No, bibi doesn't care.  But bibi ought to be concerned about the 70% of American Jews who are Democrats, most of whom hate Trump.  Moreover, 84% of American Jews oppose the incorporation of the Golan Heights into Israel.  Bibi kissing Trump's ass so much in this past election is going to net him a sizable number of votes against aid to Israel.  Remember the first rule of politics: the friend of my enemy is my enemy as well.

israel is bigger than bibi or trump

israel is a geostrategic asset for US foreign policy and will never be abandoned just becasue some hippies want it to be, its the same reason why the US, no matter who is in the driving seat, will never critisize saudi arabia

Israel: a Jewish state or a democracy - Page 2 Saudi_10

now theres a theocracy if ever there was one, but barry is cool with that so not sure why you are going at israel so much??

do you hate jews??

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:52 am

Russe wrote:israel is bigger than bibi or trump

israel is a geostrategic asset for US foreign policy and will never be abandoned just becasue some hippies want it to be, its the same reason why the US, no matter who is in the driving seat, will never critisize saudi arabia

America may not be a democracy, but the public opinion of the American citizens--or hippies as you call them--is powerful. Those hippies are also taxpayers, the backbone of America.

America has seen Israel under Natanyahu turn from a nation of succor and relief, to one of greed and acquisitiveness. Those American hippies know what is right and what is wrong. They know that their government's support for a gluttonous Israel is wrong and they are bent to do something about it.

Among those hippies are the American Jewish population itself, 70% of whom are among the humane and sensitive group--the Democrats. The elite think that if they pander to the Jews, they will drive a wedge between those Israeli partisanship and people who know right from wrong. They are wrong.

Israel itself has drawn off the partisans and those left are of an independent mind. American Jews are among the most devoted to justice and morality. What you are going to see is a covetousness Israel increasingly isolated amid public opinion, and eventually without support.

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Post by smelly-bandit on Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:01 am

Original Quill wrote:
Russe wrote:israel is bigger than bibi or trump

israel is a geostrategic asset for US foreign policy and will never be abandoned just becasue some hippies want it to be, its the same reason why the US, no matter who is in the driving seat, will never critisize saudi arabia

America may not be a democracy, but the public opinion of the American citizens--or hippies as you call them--is powerful.  Those hippies are also taxpayers, the backbone of America.

America has seen Israel under Natanyahu turn from a nation of succor and relief, to one of greed and acquisitiveness.  Those American hippies know what is right and what is wrong.  They know that their government's support for a gluttonous Israel is wrong and they are bent to do something about it.

Among those hippies are the American Jewish population itself, 70% of whom are among the humane and sensitive group--the Democrats.  The elite think that if they pander to the Jews, they will drive a wedge between those Israeli partisanship and people who know right from wrong.  They are wrong.  

Israel itself has drawn off the partisans and those left are of an independent mind.  American Jews are among the most devoted to justice and morality.  What you are going to see is a covetousness Israel increasingly isolated amid public opinion, and eventually without support.

Lol

You sound like a socialist Quill, every time socialism fails, the socialists say "that's not PROPER socialism, if proper socialism was implemented it would be a utopia"

Is any country a democracy??

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:08 am

Russe wrote:Lol

You sound like a socialist Quill, every time socialism fails, the socialists say "that's not PROPER socialism, if proper socialism was implemented it would be a utopia"

Is any country a democracy??

What about when socialism is a success?  Say, for example, the United States military...of the people, by the people and for the people, and paid for by the taxpayer!  The US military is one of the largest, and most successful socialist organizations in history.

Or, we might also turn to the US Social Security.  We might go to Medicare, Medic-Aid, or locally, Medi-Cal.  Socialism is more to be associated with success than failure.

What is socialism?  Whereas in the 17-18th centuries craftsmen worked with personal tools--hammer, chisel and saw, etc.--with the onset of the industrial revolution tooling got bigger and more expensive--presses, conveyor belts and punches.  People needed a way to connect craftsmen to their tools.

Collectivism was the answer...joint ownership.  'Socialism' derives from society, and relates to groups.  But how to organize the collective units?

One way was capitalism, where people get together and invest money in shares to purchase the tooling.  Yes—lower your raised eyebrows and close your dropped mouth--capitalism is a form of socialism.  It is social units forming corporations to buy tooling.  But capitalism is wasteful, in that it creates another, unnecessary mouth to feed.  We call that mouth, profit.

Another way is to eliminate the middle-man, and for craftsmen to get together, pool resources, and share the tools...indeed, share the work.  So, guilds came about, then worker councils and finally, governments...no wasteful spending on profits for capital.  We are our own capital.

Socialism has been preeminently successful.  First, we seem to be a species that wants to keep to ourselves are most sacred chores...so, fire departments, police departments, and essential services are things we won't let go of, are socialist...hence, the military.  Second, and suggested by the above, let the capitalists roam as they might, we make sure out essential services work.  Thus, the US military is the finest ever created.  What’s the old saying: if you want to make sure something gets done, do it yourself!  Socialism is doing it yourself.

What you have, Russe, is a blind bias, with no real validity to it.  You have no real, intrinsic criticism of socialism, so you start somewhat down the road, so to speak.  You might say that socialism is wasteful, but nowhere near as wasteful as a corporate entity that has a monopoly, and charges what the market will bear.  Look at the pharmas...$100,000 per pill, whew.  Besides, profit means that corporations will encourage waste...more profits, after all, come along with that waste.

You need to think of socialism, not as nations, but as units or organizations that serve nations.  After all, there are other kinds of organizations that are almost, but not quite as effective.  We match the kind of economic unit with what is required.  As we see with essential services, we keep our nearest and dearest services close to our breasts, and socialism is the answer.  But as we go farther out it's OK to let other forms of organization experiment with production.  Play it as it goes.

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Post by smelly-bandit on Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:06 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Russe wrote:Lol

You sound like a socialist Quill, every time socialism fails, the socialists say "that's not PROPER socialism, if proper socialism was implemented it would be a utopia"

Is any country a democracy??

What about when socialism is a success?  Say, for example, the United States military...of the people, by the people and for the people, and paid for by the taxpayer!  The US military is one of the largest, and most successful socialist organizations in history.

Or, we might also turn to the US Social Security.  We might go to Medicare, Medic-Aid, or locally, Medi-Cal.  Socialism is more to be associated with success than failure.

What is socialism?  Whereas in the 17-18th centuries craftsmen worked with personal tools--hammer, chisel and saw, etc.--with the onset of the industrial revolution tooling got bigger and more expensive--presses, conveyor belts and punches.  People needed a way to connect craftsmen to their tools.

Collectivism was the answer...joint ownership.  'Socialism' derives from society, and relates to groups.  But how to organize the collective units?

One way was capitalism, where people get together and invest money in shares to purchase the tooling.  Yes—lower your raised eyebrows and close your dropped mouth--capitalism is a form of socialism.  It is social units forming corporations to buy tooling.  But capitalism is wasteful, in that it creates another, unnecessary mouth to feed.  We call that mouth, profit.

Another way is to eliminate the middle-man, and for craftsmen to get together, pool resources, and share the tools...indeed, share the work.  So, guilds came about, then worker councils and finally, governments...no wasteful spending on profits for capital.  We are our own capital.

Socialism has been preeminently successful.  First, we seem to be a species that wants to keep to ourselves are most sacred chores...so, fire departments, police departments, and essential services are things we won't let go of, are socialist...hence, the military.  Second, and suggested by the above, let the capitalists roam as they might, we make sure out essential services work.  Thus, the US military is the finest ever created.  What’s the old saying: if you want to make sure something gets done, do it yourself!  Socialism is doing it yourself.

What you have, Russe, is a blind bias, with no real validity to it.  You have no real, intrinsic criticism of socialism, so you start somewhat down the road, so to speak.  You might say that socialism is wasteful, but nowhere near as wasteful as a corporate entity that has a monopoly, and charges what the market will bear.  Look at the pharmas...$100,000 per pill, whew.  Besides, profit means that corporations will encourage waste...more profits, after all, come along with that waste.

You need to think of socialism, not as nations, but as units or organizations that serve nations.  After all, there are other kinds of organizations that are almost, but not quite as effective.  We match the kind of economic unit with what is required.  As we see with essential services, we keep our nearest and dearest services close to our breasts, and socialism is the answer.  But as we go farther out it's OK to let other forms of organization experiment with production.  Play it as it goes.

socialism was pretty successful in venezuela

got rid of the stray dog problem

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:18 pm

Russe wrote:socialism was pretty successful in venezuela

got rid of the stray dog problem

I know, I know...you'd rather remain ignorant and joyless. Trump is the same, so you're not the first.

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Post by smelly-bandit on Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:28 am

Original Quill wrote:
Russe wrote:socialism was pretty successful in venezuela

got rid of the stray dog problem

I know, I know...you'd rather remain ignorant and joyless.  Trump is the same, so you're not the first.

id rather remain rich and prosperous which is whyt i choose free market capitalism.

under capitalism only third world citizens are kept in poverty and squalor for our benefit.

under socialism every one is equally poor,impoverished and enslaved.

if someone has to eat the shit burger, id rather those with a darker complexion than i have to do it.

Im white quill, and whats the point of being white if you cant take advantage of your white priviledge??

so you keep your socialism and ill stick with capitalism

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:13 am

smelly-bandit wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I know, I know...you'd rather remain ignorant and joyless.  Trump is the same, so you're not the first.

id rather remain rich and prosperous which is whyt i choose free market capitalism.

With a socialist military and police department to protect your assets.  That figures.

Russe wrote:under capitalism only third world citizens are kept in poverty and squalor for our benefit.

No statistics.  But, since nearly all of the world is basically free market, all poverty exists under capitalism.

Russe wrote:under socialism every one is equally poor,impoverished and enslaved.

There are no fully socialist nations.

Russe wrote:if someone has to eat the shit burger, id rather those with a darker complexion than i have to do it.

So, you're a racist.  I don't think anyone questions that.

Russe wrote:Im white quill, and whats the point of being white if you cant take advantage of your white priviledge??

Spoken like a true Eastern European.

Russe wrote:so you keep your socialism and ill stick with capitalism

All military and police are socialist based.  Since I will have the military, you will end up serving me. You can start by washing my feet, Slavic servant!  Razz

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Post by smelly-bandit on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:09 am

Don't know how you think the military is socialist.

The military doesn't manufacture or own anything it uses, from its uniforms to its rifles to the rounds they fire, ven the food they eat all of it comes from privately owned military suppliers and contractors.

How is that a socialist organization??

The Royal navy is owned entirely by private companies namely babcock.

The MT department of the British military leases out civilian vehicles for normal peace time usage.

Neither your military nor the UK nor the police are socialist since all its kit is purchased not manufactured.

A socialist model dictates that an institution manufactures owns and maintains its own tools and equipment and that the cost of such is shared equally by all as is the profits that come from those assets.

Neither is true for the military, the soldiers don't buy their kit an equipment and the profit from war goes to the industrial military complex

Generals also get paid more than privates

Do you even know what socialism is??

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Post by Andy on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:22 am

Who is SB going to vote for now that Hitler is dead?

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Post by smelly-bandit on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:29 am

Andy wrote:Who is SB going to vote for now that Hitler is dead?

Corbyn

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Post by smelly-bandit on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:30 am

smelly-bandit wrote:
Andy wrote:Who is SB going to vote for now that Hitler is dead?

Corbyn
not really

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:43 am

smelly-bandit wrote:Don't know how you think the military is socialist.

The military doesn't manufacture or own anything it uses, from its uniforms to its rifles to the rounds they fire, ven the food they eat all of it comes from privately owned military suppliers and contractors.

How is that a socialist organization??

The Royal navy is owned entirely by private companies namely babcock.

The MT department of the British military leases out civilian vehicles for normal peace time usage.

Neither your military nor the UK nor the police are socialist since all its kit is purchased not manufactured.

A socialist model dictates that an institution manufactures owns and maintains its own tools and equipment and that the cost of such is shared equally by all as is the profits that come from those assets.

Neither is true for the military, the soldiers don't buy their kit an equipment and the profit from war goes to the industrial military complex

Generals also get paid more than privates

Do you even know what socialism is??

That may be the single biggest crock of shit you've ever served up... and that's saying something.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:00 pm

Russe wrote:Don't know how you think the military is socialist.

The military doesn't manufacture or own anything it uses, from its uniforms to its rifles to the rounds they fire, ven the food they eat all of it comes from privately owned military suppliers and contractors.

How is that a socialist organization??

The military doesn't produce anything?  The military doesn't own anything?  Where have you been, my Junebug?

The essence of socialism is that the social unit owns everything and produces everything pertaining to a specific purpose.  (I have already pointed out that the socialism we have today is limited, and not universal.)  The military owns the resources it has, and produces the result of protection and national security--be it merciful or hostile.  The military is of the people, by the people and for the people...and that means paid for by the social unit.  It's the ultimate socialism.

Private supplies may (or may not) supply the military on a piecemeal basis, but rest assured they don't call the shots, or get to own anything. The military requests and develops new weapons on a CPFF (cost plus fixed fee) basis, and that means they own it from the start.  What you are suggest is like saying that the smithy who forges the sword, owns the victory.  They kowtow to get their crumbs, and they don't cheat the US military.  See, FALSE CLAIMS ACT, 31 U.S. Code § 3729.  And they don't produce the essence: actual security.

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Post by smelly-bandit on Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:12 pm

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:Don't know how you think the military is socialist.

The military doesn't manufacture or own anything it uses, from its uniforms to its rifles to the rounds they fire, ven the food they eat all of it comes from privately owned military suppliers and contractors.

How is that a socialist organization??

The Royal navy is owned entirely by private companies namely babcock.

The MT department of the British military leases out civilian vehicles for normal peace time usage.

Neither your military nor the UK nor the police are socialist since all its kit is purchased not manufactured.

A socialist model dictates that an institution manufactures owns and maintains its own tools and equipment and that the cost of such is shared equally by all as is the profits that come from those assets.

Neither is true for the military, the soldiers don't buy their kit an equipment and the profit from war goes to the industrial military complex

Generals also get paid more than privates

Do you even know what socialism is??

That may be the single biggest crock of shit you've ever served up... and that's saying something.

id love to answer you but you would probably basement me

because feelings



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Post by Original Quill on Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:22 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:

That may be the single biggest crock of shit you've ever served up... and that's saying something.

id love to answer you but you would probably basement me

because feelings

Well, I for one understand.  What you are really trying to convey is that you have lost the point, and want to switch to the typical insults and assaults.  Didn't I say that such is what bullies do?

All bullies eventually and inevitably turn the debate into a fight.  The Basement was created for people with your proclivities.

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Post by smelly-bandit on Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:32 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Russe wrote:Don't know how you think the military is socialist.

The military doesn't manufacture or own anything it uses, from its uniforms to its rifles to the rounds they fire, ven the food they eat all of it comes from privately owned military suppliers and contractors.

How is that a socialist organization??

The military doesn't produce anything?  The military doesn't own anything?  Where have you been, my Junebug?

The essence of socialism is that the social unit owns everything and produces everything pertaining to a specific purpose.  (I have already pointed out that the socialism we have today is limited, and not universal.)  The military owns the resources it has, and produces the result of protection and national security--be it merciful or hostile.  The military is of the people, by the people and for the people...and that means paid for by the social unit.  It's the ultimate socialism.

Private supplies may (or may not) supply the military on a piecemeal basis, but rest assured they don't call the shots, or get to own anything.  The military requests and develops new weapons on a CPFF (cost plus fixed fee) basis, and that means they own it from the start.  What you are suggest is like saying that the smithy who forges the sword, owns the victory.  They kowtow to get their crumbs, and they don't cheat the US military.  See, FALSE CLAIMS ACT, 31 U.S. Code § 3729.  And they don't produce the essence: actual security.

no

what im suggesting is that the smithy forges the rilfes and then sells it to military who then issues it to the soldier who then uses it for a specific purpose

remember

"The essence of socialism is that the social unit owns everything and produces everything pertaining to a specific purpose."

what this would mean is that the smithy is employed by the military and is supplied with materials and resources mined by engineers who work for the military on land owned by the military to make weapons for use by the military

that is not the case

the military may own the resources/kit/equipment it has, in the same way i own my car AFTER its final payment but it only owns those things once payment has been made.

i didnt make my car and the military doesnt make its own kit and equipment, it buys it from a private company.

thats not socialism.

i take it you have never heard of KBR and how they cheated the military and the US tax payer???

or do you really think a sixpack of coke cost $100???

do you really think it costs $10,000 to run a convoy of empty trucks up the line and back??

you got a lot to learn sonny



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Post by Original Quill on Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:58 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

The military doesn't produce anything?  The military doesn't own anything?  Where have you been, my Junebug?

The essence of socialism is that the social unit owns everything and produces everything pertaining to a specific purpose.  (I have already pointed out that the socialism we have today is limited, and not universal.)  The military owns the resources it has, and produces the result of protection and national security--be it merciful or hostile.  The military is of the people, by the people and for the people...and that means paid for by the social unit.  It's the ultimate socialism.

Private supplies may (or may not) supply the military on a piecemeal basis, but rest assured they don't call the shots, or get to own anything.  The military requests and develops new weapons on a CPFF (cost plus fixed fee) basis, and that means they own it from the start.  What you are suggest is like saying that the smithy who forges the sword, owns the victory.  They kowtow to get their crumbs, and they don't cheat the US military.  See, FALSE CLAIMS ACT, 31 U.S. Code § 3729.  And they don't produce the essence: actual security.

no

what im suggesting is that the smithy forges the rilfes and then sells it to military who then issues it to the soldier who then uses it for a specific purpose

remember

"The essence of socialism is that the social unit owns everything and produces everything pertaining to a specific purpose."

what this would mean is that the smithy is employed by the military and is supplied with materials and resources mined by engineers who work for the military on land owned by the military to make weapons for use by the military

that is not the case

the military may own the resources/kit/equipment it has, in the same way i own my car AFTER its final payment but it only owns those things once payment has been made.

i didnt make my car and the military doesnt make its own kit and equipment, it buys it from a private company.

thats not socialism.

i take it you have never heard of KBR and how they cheated the military and the US tax payer???

or do you really think a sixpack of coke cost $100???

do you really think it costs $10,000 to run a convoy of empty trucks up the line and back??

you got a lot to learn sonny  

Avoidance: you're failing to face facts.  You are confused about the difference between a service and a tangible product.  The military provides a service, not a thing.  That's why they call it the 'service'.  It provides authority, peace and security.

And the military owns everything from inception.  Who designs the weapons?  The needs come from the field, to the drawing board, to the production.  All on a CPFF basis.

The military is the embodiment of the social unit.  As I said above, it's a human tendency to keep essential services close to the breast: If you want to make sure something is done, do it yourself!  Socialism is the people, doing it themselves.

You’re too caught up in the capitalist system.  The capitalists are remote from essential services precisely because it is a system, removed from the breast of the people.  Like police, and fire departments, the people want to assure it gets done..so they keep it to themselves.  The capitalists guess and speculate. When Cathedral Notre Dame caught fire, did they pour Cornflakes on it?  Did they try to sell the Bishops a new Volkswagen?  Capitalism is remote and chancy, depends on guessing, and well, unreliable...you need certainty for essential services: if you want to get something done, do it yourself!  Only socialism is from the self, of the self, and for the self...and is assured by the self.

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:56 am

smelly-bandit wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

The military doesn't produce anything?  The military doesn't own anything?  Where have you been, my Junebug?

The essence of socialism is that the social unit owns everything and produces everything pertaining to a specific purpose.  (I have already pointed out that the socialism we have today is limited, and not universal.)  The military owns the resources it has, and produces the result of protection and national security--be it merciful or hostile.  The military is of the people, by the people and for the people...and that means paid for by the social unit.  It's the ultimate socialism.

Private supplies may (or may not) supply the military on a piecemeal basis, but rest assured they don't call the shots, or get to own anything.  The military requests and develops new weapons on a CPFF (cost plus fixed fee) basis, and that means they own it from the start.  What you are suggest is like saying that the smithy who forges the sword, owns the victory.  They kowtow to get their crumbs, and they don't cheat the US military.  See, FALSE CLAIMS ACT, 31 U.S. Code § 3729.  And they don't produce the essence: actual security.

no

what im suggesting is that the smithy forges the rilfes and then sells it to military who then issues it to the soldier who then uses it for a specific purpose

remember

"The essence of socialism is that the social unit owns everything and produces everything pertaining to a specific purpose."

what this would mean is that the smithy is employed by the military and is supplied with materials and resources mined by engineers who work for the military on land owned by the military to make weapons for use by the military

that is not the case

the military may own the resources/kit/equipment it has, in the same way i own my car AFTER its final payment but it only owns those things once payment has been made.

i didnt make my car and the military doesnt make its own kit and equipment, it buys it from a private company.

thats not socialism.

i take it you have never heard of KBR and how they cheated the military and the US tax payer???

or do you really think a sixpack of coke cost $100???

do you really think it costs $10,000 to run a convoy of empty trucks up the line and back??

you got a lot to learn sonny  


Rolling Eyes

More examples of Smelly's total ignorance on anything to do with economic systems..

Biggest load of horseshit that SB has posted this week, to be sure..

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Post by eddie on Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:25 am

Appearing on a thread and telling someone they’re talking shit and not telling them why you think that is....well, it’s a waste of time isn’t it?

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:12 am

eddie wrote:Appearing on a thread and telling someone they’re talking shit and not telling them why you think that is....well, it’s a waste of time isn’t it?

Waste of time?  What do you think Russe is doing?  Confusing services with socialism?  Cherry-picking failed economies?  Generalizing from specifics?  Either he's ignorant or he's deliberately trying to mislead.

Sometimes telling him he's talking shit is just drawing the obvious conclusion.  Would you rather have people accuse him of deliberately lying?  I think that Ben and Wolf are being kind to him.

Personally, I think he's a Russian GRU agent, tapping a keyboard at the Russian Internet Research Agency (IRA) in St. Petersburg.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

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Post by Andy on Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:43 am

I think SB keeps getting spelling mistakes and keybounce because his keyboard is clogged up with concealed semen from him masturbating over pictures of Hitler and Trump.


Last edited by Andy on Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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