Fury as a British Army veteran WILL be charged over Bloody Sunday: Ex-soldier faces trial accused of two murders in 1972 shootings - but 16 of his comrades will NOT be prosecuted

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Fury as a British Army veteran WILL be charged over Bloody Sunday: Ex-soldier faces trial accused of two murders in 1972 shootings - but 16 of his comrades will NOT be prosecuted Empty Fury as a British Army veteran WILL be charged over Bloody Sunday: Ex-soldier faces trial accused of two murders in 1972 shootings - but 16 of his comrades will NOT be prosecuted

Post by HoratioTarr on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:09 pm


Military veterans have slammed a decision to charge a former British soldier with the murder of two men in the Bloody Sunday shootings nearly 50 years ago.

The man, named only as 'Soldier F', is one of 17 former members of the 1st Battalion Parachute Regiment who were investigated over the violence which left 13 people dead in Londonderry in 1972.

The ex-soldier, thought to be in his 70s, faces trial for the alleged murders of James Wray and William McKinney and the alleged attempted murders of Joseph Friel, Michael Quinn, Joe Mahon and Patrick O'Donnell.

The decision to prosecute him has angered Armed Forces groups, who contrasted his treatment with the many IRA terrorists who have been let off during the peace process.

Critics probe point out that around 200 IRA fugitives, thought to be behind a series of terror attacks during the Troubles, were sent so-called 'comfort letters', assuring them they were no longer suspects.

The sixteen other British military veterans who were investigated over Bloody Sunday will not face action, it was announced this morning.

The British government said it will support Soldier F and cover all of his legal costs, with Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson praising the 'courage and distinction' of those who fought in Northern Ireland.

But he was criticised by one of his fellow Tory MPs for failing to do enough to protect soldiers from prosecution.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6807811/One-17-British-Army-veterans-face-Bloody-Sunday-charges.html
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Post by Fred Moletrousers on Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:55 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Military veterans have slammed a decision to charge a former British soldier with the murder of two men in the Bloody Sunday shootings nearly 50 years ago.

The man, named only as 'Soldier F', is one of 17 former members of the 1st Battalion Parachute Regiment who were investigated over the violence which left 13 people dead in Londonderry in 1972.

The ex-soldier, thought to be in his 70s, faces trial for the alleged murders of James Wray and William McKinney and the alleged attempted murders of Joseph Friel, Michael Quinn, Joe Mahon and Patrick O'Donnell.

The decision to prosecute him has angered Armed Forces groups, who contrasted his treatment with the many IRA terrorists who have been let off during the peace process.

Critics probe point out that around 200 IRA fugitives, thought to be behind a series of terror attacks during the Troubles, were sent so-called 'comfort letters', assuring them they were no longer suspects.

The sixteen other British military veterans who were investigated over Bloody Sunday will not face action, it was announced this morning.  

The British government said it will support Soldier F and cover all of his legal costs, with Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson praising the 'courage and distinction' of those who fought in Northern Ireland.

But he was criticised by one of his fellow Tory MPs for failing to do enough to protect soldiers from prosecution.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6807811/One-17-British-Army-veterans-face-Bloody-Sunday-charges.html

I was only ever in Northern Ireland as a journalist for a very short time, and was at all times guarded and protected by one of the fiercest bunch of Army 'minders' imaginable. In fact my only problem was that once they found out that I was ex-RAF and of "barcode rank" they constantly took the piss...in the most good natured of ways, of course.

Now our esteemed colleague Nicko was, I understand, a Para and was in the thick of the real action, and his views on this will be far more important than mine.

But as a member and officer-holder of the Royal British Legion, I will never forgive the Northern Ireland legal authorities for allowing this witch-hunt - there is no other word for it -
to go ahead to the point at which some poor squaddie almost as old as I am (and who served his country with far greater valour) to have been singled out as the political fall guy.

It is fucking obscene.

And while I am glad that the MoD has at least undertaken to give this brave man the support he needs and to pay all his legal costs, I have one question:

Why the bloody hell did you not stop this fucking disgusting, disgraceful harassment and victimisation of servicemen far more worthy of respect and gratitude than any self-serving, mealy-mouthed politician?

It was in your power to do so when the Good Friday Agreement - which, thank God, ended one of the most tragic chapters in the history of this country - exonerated and forgave our former IRA enemies.

To those who have played any part in the "selection" of this poor old bloke to be hung out to dry as a sop to the faux tearful buggers who a few decades ago would have celebrated his death at the hands of an IRA sniper: You bastards. You insufferable bastards. May you rot in hell.
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Post by phildidge on Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:48 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:
Military veterans have slammed a decision to charge a former British soldier with the murder of two men in the Bloody Sunday shootings nearly 50 years ago.

The man, named only as 'Soldier F', is one of 17 former members of the 1st Battalion Parachute Regiment who were investigated over the violence which left 13 people dead in Londonderry in 1972.

The ex-soldier, thought to be in his 70s, faces trial for the alleged murders of James Wray and William McKinney and the alleged attempted murders of Joseph Friel, Michael Quinn, Joe Mahon and Patrick O'Donnell.

The decision to prosecute him has angered Armed Forces groups, who contrasted his treatment with the many IRA terrorists who have been let off during the peace process.

Critics probe point out that around 200 IRA fugitives, thought to be behind a series of terror attacks during the Troubles, were sent so-called 'comfort letters', assuring them they were no longer suspects.

The sixteen other British military veterans who were investigated over Bloody Sunday will not face action, it was announced this morning.  

The British government said it will support Soldier F and cover all of his legal costs, with Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson praising the 'courage and distinction' of those who fought in Northern Ireland.

But he was criticised by one of his fellow Tory MPs for failing to do enough to protect soldiers from prosecution.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6807811/One-17-British-Army-veterans-face-Bloody-Sunday-charges.html

I was only ever in Northern Ireland as a journalist for a very short time, and was at all times guarded and protected by one of the fiercest bunch of Army 'minders' imaginable. In fact my only problem was that once they found out that I was ex-RAF and of  "barcode rank" they constantly took the piss...in the most good natured of ways, of course.

Now our esteemed colleague Nicko was, I understand, a Para and was in the thick of the real action, and his views on this will be far more important than mine.

But as a member and officer-holder of the Royal British Legion, I will never forgive the Northern Ireland legal authorities for allowing this witch-hunt - there is no other word for it -
to go ahead to the point at which some poor squaddie almost as old as I am (and who served his country with far greater valour) to have been singled out as the political fall guy.

It is fucking obscene.

And while I am glad that the MoD has at least undertaken to give this brave man the support he needs and to pay all his legal costs, I have one question:

Why the bloody hell did you not stop this fucking disgusting, disgraceful  harassment and victimisation of servicemen far more worthy of respect and gratitude than any self-serving, mealy-mouthed politician?

It was in your power to do so when the Good Friday Agreement - which, thank God, ended one of the most tragic chapters in the history of this country - exonerated and forgave our former IRA enemies.

To those who have played any part in the "selection" of this poor old bloke to be hung out to dry as a sop to the faux tearful buggers who a few decades ago would have celebrated his death at the hands of an IRA sniper: You bastards. You insufferable bastards. May you rot in hell.

I have more reason than many to hate the IRA, due to what happened to my family, as I have lost family members to the IRA. So i agree the one here is being used to be hung out to dry.

Even more than I have at least one Uncle that is pro IRA and hence there has been an endless conflict withinm my family

But what about the victims and their families with this terrible day, that did see innocent people die?

Where is the justice for them?

Someone has to be at fault here and there has to be some justice

There is no doubt that the shootings were unjustified.

Clearly I guess that day soldiers, became very jumpy, but people did die, due to the reckless behaviour of British soldiers that day

So dont you think the victims families should finally have some justice here Fred?

When British soldiers have taken out IRA terrorists, no problem. As I back that action to take out terrorists, but many here were civillians

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Post by SEXY MAMA on Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:54 pm

But the point here is the Veteren doesn’t deserve to be jailed.

The people who gave him his orders do.

He was just carrying out orders.

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Post by phildidge on Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:59 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:But the point here is the Veteren doesn’t deserve to be jailed.

The people who gave him his orders do.

He was just carrying out orders.

Sorry, but "we were just following orders" does not take away the responsibility of people Sexy

Many Nazi's tried to use this excuse during the Nuremberg trials

We have to uphold our country as a moral and just country. Where if soldiers did wrong. The we should apply the letter of the law..

I do not think soldiers this day deliberately set out to murder anyone. I think they panicked and due to to this people sadly died

Dont get me wrong, there was IRA there that day also and no doubt fueled what did happen, but innocent people were killed

They are still criminally responsible for their actions though, from a manslaughter perspective.

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Post by phildidge on Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:04 pm

I also think its appalling that IRA terrorists got away with murder with the Good Friday agreement and is a complete injustice to the many victims of IRA terrorism. Who saw murderers escape justice. That we let off terrorists from the terrorist acts they committed. Another huge injustice

That is why I do understand Freds anger and frustration here.

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Post by Vintage on Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:09 pm

The problem is bad things happen when people disagree and become violent, it may well have been a peaceful protest but how can we be sure what happened, there was talk of people, not in the protest crowd with guns, in any case I don't believe this was a premeditated incident maybe there were armed people there maybe someone thought there was and being jumpy, and who can blame them, fired, so others would do the same, how many times has that happened,  in any conflict, war or whatever you could call the Ireland problem. The army was sent there to save the Catholics from rioting Protestants then extremists took the opportunity to take on the army, so many people killed and maimed physically and mentally for something that could have been achieved politically.
If the IRA gets let off for what they did, which was so much more in fact, then so should the Army.

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Post by phildidge on Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:20 pm

Vintage wrote:The problem is bad things happen when people disagree and become violent, it may well have been a peaceful protest but how can we be sure what happened, there was talk of people, not in the protest crowd with guns, in any case I don't believe this was a premeditated incident maybe there were armed people there maybe someone thought there was and being jumpy, and who can blame them, fired, so others would do the same, how many times has that happened,  in any conflict, war or whatever you could call the Ireland problem. The army was sent there to save the Catholics from rioting Protestants then extremists took the opportunity to take on the army, so many people killed and maimed physically and mentally for something that could have been achieved politically.
If the IRA gets let off for what they did, which was so much more in fact, then so should the Army.

Well there has been extensive enquires over this Vintage
The first was a complete whitewash
The second had some validity to show that the British soldiers acted rashly

There is no denying that the IRA were there that day and played a big part in orchestrating this tragedy. That how ever does not exuse the trigger happy actions of some of the Para's here

Nobody is claiming it was premeditated and just because there certainly was some armed IRA operatives there, does not excuse innocent civillians dying does it? So to say who can blame them, when its well know that some civllians were simple shot coming to the aid of wounded civillians. Shows that some British soldiers, lost all form of control. As many who were shot, were shot in the back fleeing the violence.

I am well aware that the Catholics of northern ireland actually first welcomed the British forces and how the IRA sowed the seeds of hate against the British. Yet this one single incident. More than anything, provided the IRA with the popaganda they needed and the british army gave this to them on a plate.

So i am sorry, but none of the IRA should get away with any of their murders and to say, this means we should lower our moral standards to do the same. Is nothing short of trying to justify the murder of innocent civillians. The moment you go down that path, is the moment you end up inadvertantly justifying the terrorist murdereous killings of civllians by terrorists.

This was never and no where near a view of collateral damage

Hence we have to show why we hold the higher moral ground here

Again I ask, where is the justice for the victims of this travesty that day?

Where is also the justice for the many viticms of the IRA

This country, sold itself out for peace by exonerating terrorist murderers and has it actually achieved peace and stopped the violence?

No

If British forces had of been given a free reign to take out known IRA operatives, this conflict would have been over within a few years. That should have been the policy, but peer pressure stop a sound spolicy for ending this conflict

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Post by Vintage on Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:48 pm

I can't find fault with what you say but there is no evidence that someone decided to kill the protestors, it was a panic reaction and reaction tend to get a life of their own no one know when to stop. It was a tragic thing to happen but so many events conspired to cause what happened, imagine being there and even having the slightest hint - correct or not that there were gunmen around, no one wants to die so you react
perhaps wrongly. All I can say is that events real or otherwise
came together and caused the deaths of those people, the soldiers were there for a purpose and things went very wrong but they cannot be blamed for a split second wrong decision
that continued due to fear, training I don't know what.
I just think its very wrong to blame one side and go after one person for this, there was wrong everywhere and if one side is pardoned for what they did, even though we hold ourselves to a higher standard, its too late now to with hold that standard
under the circumstances.

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Post by phildidge on Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:57 pm

Vintage wrote:I can't find fault with what you say but there is no evidence that someone decided to kill the protestors, it was a panic reaction and reaction tend to get a life of their own no one know when to stop. It was a tragic thing to happen but so many events conspired to cause what happened, imagine being there and even having the slightest hint - correct or not that there were gunmen around, no one wants to die so you react
perhaps wrongly. All I can say is that events real or otherwise
came together and caused the deaths of those people, the soldiers were there for a purpose and things went very wrong but they cannot be blamed for a split second wrong decision
that continued due to fear, training I don't know what.
I just think its very wrong to blame one side and go after one person for this, there was wrong everywhere and if one side is pardoned for what they did, even though we hold ourselves to a higher standard, its too late now to with hold that standard
under the circumstances.

I agree it was a panic reaction but you are fogetting one simple factor Vintage
Once adrenaline kicks in. Soldiers end up losing sight of actual targets and see red and then everyone becomes a potential target.
Its how the US fucked up in Vietnam

This is certainly what happened that day. Its why most of the victims were shot in the back and even worse people coming to help the wounded were shot and killed. Its why its never a sound policy to use soldiers to police a protest. As these men are trained to react and often see red, as they are trained to do so with combat. It was a terrible decision to use armed forces here and people who made that decision should also face the consequences of such a poor decision

However, this again does not excuse their actions. As there was little restraint on the part of the Paras.
Like i said, there is no doubt in my mind, that the IRA were within the crowd and some were armed and just like Islamic terrorists do today with human shields. They knew the value of civllian casulties in the eyes of the press

So i agree there was a culmination of factors here that led to this disaster, but on no view point can it ever excuse how some were shot helping people wounded and the vast majority were shot whilst fleeing.

Its why hence I think its wrong to use one Para as a scapegoat. I also think that many serving paras that day have a sense of duty and honour to admit to wrongs they did that day.

Again i dont think any IRA terrorist should have ever been pardoned. Its appalling that some nazi's were pardoned simple for the view to work for both the allies and the Communists after WW2. It shows that the victims lives meant far less, than the tactical value of those people who commited appalling acts. It made a mockery of the Holocaust. That both sides took on board known mass murderers, to futher their cause.

So i certainly do understand where you and Fred and coming from on this, but at every turn, and to me. Neither of you are ever contemplating the victims families here. Just as the British Governement never once contemplated the families of victims by IRA terrorism. When they signed the Good friday agreement

If this is happenning, then the Irish governement and the British governement should be going after IRA terrorists that murdered, as well to prosecute them.

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Post by Vintage on Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:27 pm

Again I can't really disagree with what you say but in a war situation you are acting generally to - agreed conditions, there war crimes can be reasonably identified, when you are a regular fighting unit in conflict with people who have no holds barred things can get difficult to use standards of war, people are people flawed as they are even when fully trained in 'regular' warfare. If the IRA were held to the same standards I wouldn't have so many objections to this. The Paras made a huge mistake on that day and compounded it, the IRA made deliberate planned decisions that led to so many men, women and children killed and maimed, where is the call for them to stand and answer for their actions. No, until that happens this is not justice.

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Post by phildidge on Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:41 pm

Vintage wrote:Again I can't really disagree with what you say but in a war situation you are acting generally to - agreed conditions, there war crimes can be reasonably identified, when you are a regular fighting unit in conflict with people who have no holds barred things can get difficult to use standards of war, people are people flawed as they are even when fully trained in 'regular' warfare. If the IRA were held to the same standards I wouldn't have so many objections to this. The Paras made a huge mistake on that day and compounded it, the IRA made deliberate planned decisions that led to so many men, women and children killed and maimed, where is the call for them to stand and answer for their actions. No, until that happens this is not justice.

But Vintage this was never a war between the Irish and British people. It was an ideological war by the IRA. Which truth be told, the British political policies. Were very much to blame for this conflict. The barbaric actions of the Black and Tans units, after the first world war. Led to countless resentment.

Again that is no excuse either for the barabrity and murder committed by the IRA.

I personally do not think this was a war crime as such, but a crime none the less. There was no premeditated view by the Para's that day to kill and wound innocent civillians. I also think the IRA also instigated the actions that day. However again and I agree with you. That the IRA should be held to the same standards. But how can we hold them to the same standards. When we argue against applying those very same standards to British soldierss that committed crimes also? By the fact we look to excuse the actions of this day. Provides the very ammunition and means to excuse any violence they committed. Its why again to me, the Good friday agreement sold out the victims of IRA violence and murder Vintage.

So I completely agree with you Vintage and am also as troubled as you are over this. I also am angered how one side is only being held to amoral standard and accountability here. Hence why I think the many IRA terrorists that were exonerated , was a complete travesty and how we bought into peace based off allowing murderers to get away scott free. That angers me to the core and more than you can possible know. So I understand how you are at odds with this, but to me. Now the victims of IRA terrorism also have to make a stand and look to ensure they see justice.

Really interesting debate Vintage and I truely really understand where you are coming from. I just want to see justice for all the victims here.

Night

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:34 pm

They should re-arrest all IRA suspects and put them on trial, including those they let out early. Weren't many of those at the march IRA sympathisers?

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Post by Fred Moletrousers on Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:10 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:They should re-arrest all IRA suspects and put them on trial, including those they let out early. Weren't many of those at the march IRA sympathisers?

Exoneration and early release of people who were, not to put too fine a point on it terrorists, were, of course, the basis of the Good Friday accord.

The terms now appear to be applied with the specific intention of finding a British Army scapegoat in order to placate Republican sentiment at a time when the power-sharing legislature is no longer functioning and there are increasingly serious implications for the province of a Brexit no-deal situation.

It is also interesting to note that some contributions to this discussion fail to observe that the soldier in question is fully entitled to be regarded as being innocent until proven guilty by a properly qualified judge and jury, and not by a bunch of uninformed commentators.
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Post by phildidge on Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:19 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:They should re-arrest all IRA suspects and put them on trial, including those they let out early. Weren't many of those at the march IRA sympathisers?

Exoneration and early release of people who were, not to put too fine a point on it terrorists, were, of course, the basis of the Good Friday accord.

The terms now appear to be applied with the specific intention of finding a British Army scapegoat in order to placate Republican sentiment at a time when the power-sharing legislature is no longer functioning and there are increasingly serious implications for the province of a Brexit no-deal situation.

It is also interesting to note that some contributions to this discussion fail to observe that the soldier in question is fully entitled to be regarded as being innocent until proven guilty by a properly qualified judge and jury, and not by a bunch of uninformed commentators.


Well some Para's definately shot innocent civillians that day. Mainly in the back whilst fleeing. Some even coming to help those already wounded.


Fourteen people died: thirteen were killed outright, while the death of another man four months later was attributed to his injuries. Many of the victims were shot while fleeing from the soldiers and some were shot while trying to help the wounded. Other protesters were injured by rubber bullets or batons, and two were run down by army vehicles

The Saville Inquiry, chaired by Lord Saville of Newdigate, was established in 1998 to reinvestigate the incident. Following a 12-year inquiry, Saville's report was made public in 2010 and concluded that the killings were both "unjustified" and "unjustifiable". It found that all of those shot were unarmed, that none were posing a serious threat, that no bombs were thrown, and that soldiers "knowingly put forward false accounts" to justify their firing.


So some of these soldiers are clearly guilty and the families of the victims deserve justice.

Your post just trod all over the victims families with your views.

Again I made clear, that IRA terrorists should also be jailed

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:58 pm

It's stupid to wait this long and then suddenly decide to prosecute. Perhaps this will stir it all up again, and those who decided to drag it all up again will have blood on their hands. I hope they have sleepless nights thinking about the murdering IRA bastards who were let off.

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Post by phildidge on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:01 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:It's stupid to wait this long and then suddenly decide to prosecute. Perhaps this will stir it all up again, and those who decided to drag it all up again will have blood on their hands. I hope they have sleepless nights thinking about the murdering IRA bastards who were let off.

So the families looking for and have been calling for justice, have now blood on their hands?

Really?

What have they got to do with IRA terrorists that got let off by the British Governement?


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Post by phildidge on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:02 pm

Michael McKinney, Jean Hegarty and John Kelly, like all the close relatives of the Bloody Sunday victims, have waited more than 40 years for justice.

On Thursday morning they, along with other families, will gather beside the rain-stained memorial to the 1972 shootings in the Bogside. Together they will walk to Derry’s neo-gothic Guildhall after learning whether Northern Ireland’s Public Prosecution Service will bring murder charges against the paratroopers who shot dead their brothers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/13/relatives-of-bloody-sunday-victims-hope-long-wait-for-justice-could-be-over


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Post by nicko on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:03 pm

You forgot to mention that an IRA Sniper was seen firing from the Divis flats, it's entirely possible that he shot his own countrymen to put the blame on the British Soldiers, seems unbelievable,. but these scum would stop at nothing. If your so clever, find out what calibre Bullets were removed from the two Civilians. British used 7.62 calibre , it was said that the civilians had 5.56 calibre removed from them . The Ira had Armalites firing that Bullet.
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Post by nicko on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:06 pm

PS, didge is beginning to sound like an IRA supporter !
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Post by phildidge on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:07 pm

nicko wrote:You forgot to mention that an IRA Sniper was seen firing from the Divis flats,  it's entirely possible that he shot his own countrymen to put the blame on the British Soldiers, seems unbelievable,.   but these scum would stop at nothing.  If your so clever,  find out what calibre Bullets were removed from the two Civilians.  British used 7.62 calibre , it was said that the civilians had 5.56 calibre removed from them .  The Ira had Armalites firing that Bullet.

The Saville Inquiry, chaired by Lord Saville of Newdigate, was established in 1998 to reinvestigate the incident. Following a 12-year inquiry, Saville's report was made public in 2010 and concluded that the killings were both "unjustified" and "unjustifiable". It found that all of those shot were unarmed, that none were posing a serious threat, that no bombs were thrown, and that soldiers "knowingly put forward false accounts" to justify their firing.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:12 pm

phildidge wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:It's stupid to wait this long and then suddenly decide to prosecute. Perhaps this will stir it all up again, and those who decided to drag it all up again will have blood on their hands. I hope they have sleepless nights thinking about the murdering IRA bastards who were let off.

So the families looking for and have been calling for justice, have now blood on their hands?

Really?

What have they got to do with IRA terrorists that got let off by the British Governement?


I mean whoever decided to prosecute - obviously. It was decided, without the consent of the victims of the IRA, that all was fair in NI, as long as you were a terrorist of course. It's just sick to let them all off and prosecute a soldier after all these years. TBH, I wish NI would just eff off altogether.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:13 pm

What about the families of the victims of the IRA? How did they feel when the people who murdered their loved ones were let off?

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Post by phildidge on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:16 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
phildidge wrote:

So the families looking for and have been calling for justice, have now blood on their hands?

Really?

What have they got to do with IRA terrorists that got let off by the British Governement?


I mean whoever decided to prosecute - obviously. It was decided, without the consent of the victims of the IRA, that all was fair in NI, as long as you were a terrorist of course. It's just sick to let them all off and prosecute a soldier after all these years. TBH, I wish NI would just eff off altogether.

The families have been calling for justice for fourty years and what has this got to do with the victims of the IRA?

They are not even connected

To be honest more than one should be prosecuted

If you want to blame someone for the IRA getting let off, then blame the British Governement

As they were the ones that did this with the Good friday agreement

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:20 pm

phildidge wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I mean whoever decided to prosecute - obviously. It was decided, without the consent of the victims of the IRA, that all was fair in NI, as long as you were a terrorist of course. It's just sick to let them all off and prosecute a soldier after all these years. TBH, I wish NI would just eff off altogether.

The families have been calling for justice for fourty years and what has this got to do with the victims of the IRA?

They are not even connected

To be honest more than one should be prosecuted

If you want to blame someone for the IRA getting let off, then blame the British Governement

As they were the ones that did this with the Good friday agreement

I do blame the British Government for that. I also blame them for not dealing with the issue of other "crimes". If they let off the IRA scum, they should have let off any soldiers too.

You are beginning to sound like an IRA sympathiser though - as nicko said. If you can't see the connection, that's your problem.

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Post by phildidge on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:23 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
phildidge wrote:

The families have been calling for justice for fourty years and what has this got to do with the victims of the IRA?

They are not even connected

To be honest more than one should be prosecuted

If you want to blame someone for the IRA getting let off, then blame the British Governement

As they were the ones that did this with the Good friday agreement

I do blame the British Government for that. I also blame them for not dealing with the issue of other "crimes". If they let off the IRA scum, they should have let off any soldiers too.

You are beginning to sound like an IRA sympathiser though - as nicko said. If you can't see the connection, that's your problem.

How is seeking justice for the victims of Bloody Sunday. Make me an IRA sympathisor?

When I have called that all IRA terrorists should be tried and convicted?

All you and Nicko are doing is trying to deligitimise me and not counter my points made

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:25 pm

I have no time for IRA sympathisers, so I will not be debating this issue with you any more.

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Post by phildidge on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:29 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I have no time for IRA sympathisers, so I will not be debating this issue with you any more.

Well not seen any IRA sympathisors on here and you once charged Ben with that also

So at least we know now, you think the 14 people killed on Bloody Sunday was justified clearly.

As why in this case do you not want to see justice?

I want to see justice for all the victims of terrorism.

What I am seeing here is some Anti-Irish sentiments.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:32 pm

I bet they can't prove he killed those particular men, and he gets acquitted. I certainly hope so.

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Post by phildidge on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:36 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I bet they can't prove he killed those particular men, and he gets acquitted. I certainly hope so.

According to British Army evidence 21 soldiers fired their weapons on 'Bloody Sunday' and shot 108 rounds between them. Two soldiers were responsible for firing a total 35 bullets. Soldier F fired 13 shots and Soldier H fired 22 shots and both soldiers were in the area of Glenfada Park at the time of the shooting.

The fatal shooting on 'Bloody Sunday' began at approximately 4.10pm when soldiers entered the Rossville Street area of the Bogside. However, before the fatal shooting began two people were shot and wounded in William Street at about 3.55pm. The two people were Damien Donaghey (15) and John Johnson (59). The soldiers involved, Soldier A and B, claimed that they had come under attack from nailbombs. No other witnesses, civilian or military heard any nailbombs explode at 3.55pm. Johnson was shot twice in the incident and died on 16 June 1972. His family is convinced that he died prematurely and that his death was due to the injuries received and trauma he underwent on 'Bloody Sunday'.

Most of those shot dead on 'Bloody Sunday' were killed in four main areas: the car park (courtyard) of Rossville Flats; the forecourt of Rossville Flats (between the Flats and Joseph Place); at the rubble and wire barricade on Rossville Street (between Rossville Flats and Glenfada Park); and in the area around Glenfada Park (between Glenfada Park and Abbey Park). The following accounts look at the shootings in each of these areas in turn. It is not possible to give the exact time of any particular shooting or the exact order in which all 13 people were shot dead. However, within the above four main areas the sequence of fatal shooting can be established from the available evidence.


https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/events/bsunday/circum.htm

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Post by phildidge on Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:53 pm

"We have considered the possibility that one or more of the [total] casualties [on Bloody Sunday] might have occurred from soldiers firing by accident, in the sense of discharging their rifles by mistake and without intending to do so," the report said. "We have found no evidence that suggests to us that this was or might have been the case."

None of the dead that day had been armed with a firearm or bomb, the report said. None was posing any threat of causing death or serious injury.

In no case did soldiers issue any warning before opening fire. And they found the soldiers had lied afterwards when trying to justify their actions – including those involved in the Glenfada Park attack, who said they had identified and shot at people seeking to use bombs or guns.

"Despite the contrary evidence given by soldiers, we have concluded that none of them fired in response to attacks or threatened attacks by nail or petrol bombers," the inquiry found.

"No-one threw or threatened to throw a nail or petrol bomb at the soldiers on Bloody Sunday. There was some firing by republican paramilitaries (though nothing approaching that claimed by some soldiers) … but in our view none of this firing provided any justification for the shooting of the civilian casualties. No soldier of Support Company was injured by gunfire."

The judges said they appreciated the soldiers had little time to decide whether someone posed a threat, and "may have to make that decision in a state of tension and fear". They concluded that the "immediate responsibility" for the deaths and injuries on Bloody Sunday "lies with [the soldiers'] unjustifiable firing".

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/the-bloody-sunday-story-is-not-over-yet-20190316-p514r1.html

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:04 am

phildidge wrote:
nicko wrote:You forgot to mention that an IRA Sniper was seen firing from the Divis flats,  it's entirely possible that he shot his own countrymen to put the blame on the British Soldiers, seems unbelievable,.   but these scum would stop at nothing.  If your so clever,  find out what calibre Bullets were removed from the two Civilians.  British used 7.62 calibre , it was said that the civilians had 5.56 calibre removed from them .  The Ira had Armalites firing that Bullet.

The Saville Inquiry, chaired by Lord Saville of Newdigate, was established in 1998 to reinvestigate the incident. Following a 12-year inquiry, Saville's report was made public in 2010 and concluded that the killings were both "unjustified" and "unjustifiable". It found that all of those shot were unarmed, that none were posing a serious threat, that no bombs were thrown, and that soldiers "knowingly put forward false accounts" to justify their firing.


That didn't answer Nickos question about the alleged IRA sniper... or that two of the victims had allegedly been shot with a different calibre size of bullets, than that which the British forces were armed with on that day... but were of the type that the IRA were known to use...!?



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Post by phildidge on Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:13 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
phildidge wrote:

The Saville Inquiry, chaired by Lord Saville of Newdigate, was established in 1998 to reinvestigate the incident. Following a 12-year inquiry, Saville's report was made public in 2010 and concluded that the killings were both "unjustified" and "unjustifiable". It found that all of those shot were unarmed, that none were posing a serious threat, that no bombs were thrown, and that soldiers "knowingly put forward false accounts" to justify their firing.


That didn't answer Nickos question about the alleged IRA sniper... or that two of the victims had allegedly been shot with a different calibre size of bullets, than that which the British forces were armed with on that day... but were of the type that the IRA were known to use...!?



That is because its yet another claim by Nicko, that is made up bullshit

Show me the coroner report that backs up his claim?

No such report backs up his claim

I mean he claims on two people, what about the other 12 killed and the others wounded?

There certainly was at least two IRA operatives there that day. Of which one fired at the Para's and they had a .303 rifle and not an Armalite.

The IRA was only starting to get the Armalite rifles by 1972 and being as bloody Sunday happened in January 1972

Its highly unlikely they had any by then and why here they had a .303 rifle they were using

I suggest you read the actual reports to the saville enquiry on this and not someone who has a habbit of relaying Jackanory

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