Civil Liberty stabbed in the back

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Post by Thorin on Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:54 pm

A ccording to a report in The Daily Mail, the Metropolitan Police in London are setting up mobile metal detectors for surprise scans of citizens in alleyways in Central London. The project was launched in Soho yesterday. This is an unacceptable violation of civil liberties to which the people of the United Kingdom have not consented. The right to go about one’s business untroubled by the law is a basic civil liberty for which the only exception can reasonably be that police have a reasonable suspicion to interfere with your person.

In the picture above from The Daily Mail story, well-dressed middle-aged office workers can be seen being herded through this Orwellian device.

To make matters worse, it is reported, officers lay in wait to ambush anyone who appeared to turn around rather than subject themselves to this intrusion.

The object of the exercise obviously was to tick demographic boxes so that an equal number of elderly women, middle-aged men in business suits, and Soho hipsters can be said to have been stopped compared to the gangstas in hoodies (not that many converge on Soho to begin with). Complaining about the quota-meeting farce is one thing, but the real offence here is that this will do absolutely nothing to reduce knife crime.

Knife crime, it is plain to see even to gangsters themselves, is a problem of gangs. It has nothing to do with the political football of cuts in police numbers, and everything to do with the lack of political will to tackle the gangs of London because it is a political hot potato: almost all the murders are gang-related and almost all the perpetrators and victims are black, and particularly because the escalation of violence is linked to immigration. Even the gang members say so. In an interview with the Evening Standard, a gang enforcer named only as “Wayne” explained:

“In the last 10 years, since the Somalis and the Congolese came to London, they taught us a whole new level of violence,” he said.

Who wants to grapple with this? Who wants to point out than an influx of youths from societies where ultra-violence is normal might be changing the culture here in London and other British cities? No, it is easier to pretend the problem has something to do with police numbers, or police visibility – as if these jaded youth give a hoot about a few more bobbies on the beat. And as for those deluded fools who think that “more youth services” is the answer – as if some new dart boards and pool tables at the youth centre can compete with tax-free earnings of £100 a day or more, for a low-end role in a drug gang. Get real! It’s about business, not boredom.So this latest stunt is a PR exercise and nothing more. 


Well, ‘nothing more’ isn’t quite right because it is a PR exercise at the cost of one of our most basic civil liberties:
the right to go about our business unmolested unless a police officer has genuine reasonable grounds to stop and search us. That is what the law of the United Kingdom holds, and is right to hold because it is not a police state.



But lately the police seem to be doing everything beyond their power to give us the opposite impression.



http://hurryupharry.org/2019/03/06/civil-liberty-stabbed-in-the-back/

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Post by Maddog on Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:05 pm

Thor wrote:A ccording to a report in The Daily Mail, the Metropolitan Police in London are setting up mobile metal detectors for surprise scans of citizens in alleyways in Central London. The project was launched in Soho yesterday. This is an unacceptable violation of civil liberties to which the people of the United Kingdom have not consented. The right to go about one’s business untroubled by the law is a basic civil liberty for which the only exception can reasonably be that police have a reasonable suspicion to interfere with your person.

In the picture above from The Daily Mail story, well-dressed middle-aged office workers can be seen being herded through this Orwellian device.

To make matters worse, it is reported, officers lay in wait to ambush anyone who appeared to turn around rather than subject themselves to this intrusion.

The object of the exercise obviously was to tick demographic boxes so that an equal number of elderly women, middle-aged men in business suits, and Soho hipsters can be said to have been stopped compared to the gangstas in hoodies (not that many converge on Soho to begin with). Complaining about the quota-meeting farce is one thing, but the real offence here is that this will do absolutely nothing to reduce knife crime.

Knife crime, it is plain to see even to gangsters themselves, is a problem of gangs. It has nothing to do with the political football of cuts in police numbers, and everything to do with the lack of political will to tackle the gangs of London because it is a political hot potato: almost all the murders are gang-related and almost all the perpetrators and victims are black, and particularly because the escalation of violence is linked to immigration. Even the gang members say so. In an interview with the Evening Standard, a gang enforcer named only as “Wayne” explained:

“In the last 10 years, since the Somalis and the Congolese came to London, they taught us a whole new level of violence,” he said.

Who wants to grapple with this? Who wants to point out than an influx of youths from societies where ultra-violence is normal might be changing the culture here in London and other British cities? No, it is easier to pretend the problem has something to do with police numbers, or police visibility – as if these jaded youth give a hoot about a few more bobbies on the beat. And as for those deluded fools who think that “more youth services” is the answer – as if some new dart boards and pool tables at the youth centre can compete with tax-free earnings of £100 a day or more, for a low-end role in a drug gang. Get real! It’s about business, not boredom.So this latest stunt is a PR exercise and nothing more. 


Well, ‘nothing more’ isn’t quite right because it is a PR exercise at the cost of one of our most basic civil liberties:
the right to go about our business unmolested unless a police officer has genuine reasonable grounds to stop and search us. That is what the law of the United Kingdom holds, and is right to hold because it is not a police state.



But lately the police seem to be doing everything beyond their power to give us the opposite impression.



http://hurryupharry.org/2019/03/06/civil-liberty-stabbed-in-the-back/
I thought stop and frisk was legal in the UK?  Civil Liberty stabbed in the back 2190311264

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Post by nicko on Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:08 pm

"Basis Civic Liberties" It's my basic civil liberties not to be stabbed to death ! Unless the Police set up this sort of thing,[ all over the country as far as I'm concerned] There's no way to stop it !
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Post by Thorin on Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:10 pm

Actually Maddog, I am not sure I am convinced this is against civil liberties, when we already through a number of places go through metal detectors. Its not random stopping, as all have to go through. If they are walking that way. So I am not sure I agree with the article stance on here.

The main view to me, is how effective it could be based on the low number of Police officers to impliment this. I think it will be too easy for gangs to be on the look out for such detectors being set up in areas and feed back to their gangs to avoid these areas. I think based on the rise if knife crime, many people will not mind a little inconvience with this.

Hence I am on the fence and even more so how in fact this could be effective

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:34 pm

I don't see how this is much different from cameras, which are everywhere nowadays.

It's not really 'stop and frisk' because it is not an intrusive search.

It's collecting 'meta-data'...in this case the electromagnetic impulses given off by metal. A camera collects light. In either case, there is no physical invasion.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:40 pm

Original Quill wrote:I don't see how this is much different from cameras, which are everywhere nowadays.

It's not really 'stop and frisk' because it is not an intrusive search.

It's collecting 'meta-data'...in this case the electromagnetic impulses given off by metal.  A camera collects light.  In either case, there is no physical invasion.
It's different because you're not allowed to avoid them. If you do, you will be searched.

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Post by Fred Moletrousers on Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:40 pm

If it saves lives it's a small price to pay.
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Post by Maddog on Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:53 pm

Wouldn't fly around here. Texas supreme court has ruled that road side sobriety check points are unconstitutional.

If you can't articulate what I have done to be stopped, and forced through a device, you can fuck right off.

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Post by Thorin on Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:03 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:I don't see how this is much different from cameras, which are everywhere nowadays.

It's not really 'stop and frisk' because it is not an intrusive search.

It's collecting 'meta-data'...in this case the electromagnetic impulses given off by metal.  A camera collects light.  In either case, there is no physical invasion.
It's different because you're not allowed to avoid them. If you do, you will be searched.

To be fair, it would have to verfied that claim, whether its part of the Policy.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:04 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:I don't see how this is much different from cameras, which are everywhere nowadays.

It's not really 'stop and frisk' because it is not an intrusive search.

It's collecting 'meta-data'...in this case the electromagnetic impulses given off by metal.  A camera collects light.  In either case, there is no physical invasion.
It's different because you're not allowed to avoid them. If you do, you will be searched.

Then it turns into a search.  But that does not make the metal detector itself a violation.

That's a problem with procedures.  They should change that practice.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:16 pm

Thor wrote:
Maddog wrote:
It's different because you're not allowed to avoid them. If you do, you will be searched.

To be fair, it would have to verfied that claim, whether its part of the Policy.

"To make matters worse, it is reported, officers lay in wait to ambush anyone who appeared to turn around rather than subject themselves to this intrusion."

All I have is your link.

Maybe someone from this forum can go give us a first hand account.


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Post by Maddog on Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:17 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:
It's different because you're not allowed to avoid them. If you do, you will be searched.

Then it turns into a search.  But that does not make the metal detector itself a violation.

That's a problem with procedures.  They should change that practice.

So it's voluntary?

That's fine by me then.

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Post by Thorin on Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:19 pm

Maddog wrote:
Thor wrote:

To be fair, it would have to verfied that claim, whether its part of the Policy.

"To make matters worse, it is reported, officers lay in wait to ambush anyone who appeared to turn around rather than subject themselves to this intrusion."

All I have is your link.  

Maybe someone from this forum can go give us a first hand account.  


It could very well be true, just saying it needs to be clarified

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Post by Maddog on Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:22 pm

Thor wrote:
Maddog wrote:

"To make matters worse, it is reported, officers lay in wait to ambush anyone who appeared to turn around rather than subject themselves to this intrusion."

All I have is your link.  

Maybe someone from this forum can go give us a first hand account.  


It could very well be true, just saying it needs to be clarified

Ben has time and he's a reporter. He needs to give us a report.

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Post by Thorin on Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:25 pm

Maddog wrote:
Thor wrote:

It could very well be true, just saying it needs to be clarified

Ben has time and he's a reporter. He needs to give us a report.  

Laughing

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:28 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Then it turns into a search.  But that does not make the metal detector itself a violation.

That's a problem with procedures.  They should change that practice.

So it's voluntary?

That's fine by me then.  

The better question is, is it intrusive? Only when it's intrusive does it raise rights to privacy.

The point is that the part where the search becomes intrusive (physical search) can be severed off from the use of the metal detector. As the technology improves, they'll place metal detectors that cover wider areas, and can't be avoided...like cameras.

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Post by Maddog on Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:33 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

So it's voluntary?

That's fine by me then.  

The better question is, is it intrusive?  Only when it's intrusive does it raise rights to privacy.

The point is that the part where the search becomes intrusive (physical search) can be severed off from the use of the metal detector.  As the technology improves, they'll place metal detectors that cover wider areas, and can't be avoided...like cameras.

Correct. Of I'm not herded through a device that is different. I can expect.no privacy while walking down a public street. But I can expect to be able to turn around or change direction at any point I like.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:37 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

The better question is, is it intrusive?  Only when it's intrusive does it raise rights to privacy.

The point is that the part where the search becomes intrusive (physical search) can be severed off from the use of the metal detector.  As the technology improves, they'll place metal detectors that cover wider areas, and can't be avoided...like cameras.

Correct. Of I'm not herded through a device that is different. I can expect.no privacy while walking down a public street. But I can expect to be able to turn around or change direction at any point I like.  

Yeah, I agree with that. Then it's a real stop & frisk.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:50 pm

Maddog wrote:Wouldn't fly around here.  Texas supreme court has ruled that road side sobriety check points are unconstitutional.

If you can't articulate what I have done to be stopped, and forced through a device, you can fuck right off.  

Gave you green for that.

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Post by Victorismyhero on Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:21 pm

I'd have NO problems with it, were it not for the fact the average british cop is as thick as shit and cannot understand the part of the law that says "shall not, WITHOUT GOOD REASON, carry in public a sharp bladed object greater than....blah blah..." and then arrests the working carpenter for carrying a lock knife in his pocket to a job, or the guy going shooting/fishing for carrying a (very) sharp skinning knife etc etc etc, cos it gives him (the cop) a power trip......

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Post by Thorin on Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:30 pm

Lord Foul wrote:I'd have NO problems with it, were it not for the fact the average british cop is as thick as shit and cannot understand the part of the law that says "shall not, WITHOUT GOOD REASON, carry in public a sharp bladed object greater than....blah blah..." and then arrests the working carpenter for carrying a lock knife in his pocket to a job, or the guy going shooting/fishing for carrying a (very) sharp skinning knife etc etc etc, cos it gives him (the cop) a power trip......


Point of order, but how many people going fishing or shooting tend to be doing this within the city of London or its nearest boroughs?...Other than criminals Laughing

Lets face it mate, most will be living out in less urbanized areas and have a much lower rate of knife crime

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