Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

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Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Thor on Sun 10 Feb 2019 - 7:28

First topic message reminder :

London's latest murder victim had his 'throat slit with a huge knife' outside a 24 hour off licence, according to a shocked local business boss.

The victim, believed to be aged in his 30s, was pronounced dead at the scene in Lordship Lane in well-heeled East Dulwich shortly after 3am on Sunday.

No arrests have been made and enquiries into what happened are ongoing, the Metropolitan Police said.

This morning his body still appeared to be inside the police cordon as a forensic tent could be seen outside an off licence on the main road.

A local business owner said staff in the store - which is still behind police cordon - tried to stop the attack, but it was too late.

The man, who owns another shop that is just a few doors up from where the attack happened, said: 'The guys from the off licence saw it.

'We spoke to them briefly this morning because when we saw the police we were worried something had happened to them


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6687663/Man-30s-stabbed-death-south-east-London.html

And I will say it again, stop and search is not preventing this from happenning

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Tue 12 Feb 2019 - 9:01

Jules wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


Police to get largest funding increase since 2010. There will be up to £970 million additional funding to enablepolice forces to recruit more officers. ... The provisionalpolice funding settlement of up to £14 billion for 2019 to 2020 is up to £970 million more than the previous year.

13 Dec 2018

That's not what the mayor said.  elephant


The mayor of London is a weaselly lying Labour scum bag...


The announcement I posted up was from the govt...

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Tue 12 Feb 2019 - 9:50

Tommy Monk wrote:
Thor wrote:


Can you explain the methods that you are talking about please...?


In your own words... simply and briefly...?




Well?

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Thor on Tue 12 Feb 2019 - 10:09

Thor wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/membership/2017/dec/03/how-scotland-reduced-knife-deaths-among-young-people

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/scotland-knife-crime-public-health-issue-violence-uk

Read them

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Tue 12 Feb 2019 - 10:58

Thor wrote:
Thor wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/membership/2017/dec/03/how-scotland-reduced-knife-deaths-among-young-people

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/14/scotland-knife-crime-public-health-issue-violence-uk

Read them

Laters


Well... as you are obviously too stupid to read/understand the articles you posted... let me explain how the Scottish reduced knife crime and numbers carrying knives...


From your article...


“They campaigned really hard to get the legislation around knife crime changed so people would be more likely to get a mandatory sentence. There was also, at the outset, a lot of stop and search.”

The average sentence for carrying a knife in Scotland has tripled, from four months in 2005-06 to an average of 13 months in 2014-15.




So... to sum up... lots of stop and search... mandatory minimum sentences for anyone caught carrying a knife... and an increase in length of sentences...


Which was exactly what I said should happen here in London!!!


You really are an idiot sometimes didge...!!!


lol!

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by nicko on Tue 12 Feb 2019 - 12:16

Well some ones got to say it, the killings by knife in London are nearly all Black on Black ! No good trying to hide it !
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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Tue 12 Feb 2019 - 13:36



Well didge...!?


Nothing to say now about the methods used in Scotland...!?


lol!

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Thor on Tue 12 Feb 2019 - 13:40

You have to laugh, Tommy takes the snip bits he likes from  the articles and ignores the main methods they used

Selective reading by Tommy

So what else did they say Tommy in regards violence being treated as a public health issue?

What else did they do in regards to gangs, which I spoke about earlier targeting?

They changed tactic, because stop and search was not working

Opps

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Thor on Tue 12 Feb 2019 - 13:47

Here is the main starting point of the article

Guardian wrote:

Treating knife crime as a health issue has led to a dramatic drop in stabbings: of the 35 deaths of young people in Britain this year, none were in Scotland

The Scottish approach was quite conventional at first. “The police played a central role in the beginning,” explains Christine Goodall, who along with two other surgeons founded Medics Against Violence in 2008, a campaign group which works with health professionals, law enforcement, social services and other bodies to thwart violent behaviour. “They campaigned really hard to get the legislation around knife crime changed so people would be more likely to get a mandatory sentence. There was also, at the outset, a lot of stop and search.”

The average sentence for carrying a knife in Scotland has tripled, from four months in 2005-06 to an average of 13 months in 2014-15.

The issues, says Goodall, were concentrated in certain areas, particularly around Glasgow. Using intelligence from police operations, the VRU identified those people most likely to offend and asked them to voluntarily attend the sheriff’s court. “They didn’t have to come but they were encouraged to by community police, teachers and social workers and a lot of them did come,” says Goodall.

“The police had mapped all the gangs and when people got there they saw their own pictures up in the court. The session started off with a warning: ‘We know who you are and if you carry on with this lifestyle we’re going to come down on you really hard. We’re going to arrest you and we’ll arrest the rest of the gang. You will be going to prison if this carries on.’”

But at that point the intervention at the court took a more creative and holistic approach.

“We spoke about the injuries we see as a result of the violence and had a mum talk about losing her son. That really hit home,” explains Goodall. Finally, they were offered a way out. “There was help with housing, relocation, employment and training. They were given a number to call if they wanted to take the offer up. Huge numbers of them did so, were put into the programme, and are no longer in the gang lifestyle.”

The decision to treat knife crime as a public health issue – rather than simply a police matter – appears to have underpinned both the direction and support.


The fact that the initiative is publicly funded means strategies can be coordinated coherently, and organisations can concentrate on the task at hand rather than constantly looking for money to fund their next project. That makes a big difference, says Goodall.

“The problem for charities is that they have to compete for short-term funding,” she says. “So we’re able to take a more coordinated approach with more stable support.”

Susan McVie, professor of quantitative criminology at the University of Edinburgh, points out that the police, working alone, have a limited capacity to prevent knife crime.

Fewer than 2% of stop and searches in Scotland result in the recovery of a knife, she says. “It’s hard to profile kids who carry weapons because a lot of those who carry a weapon aren’t the ones you would expect. They might be kids from middle-class backgrounds who feel frightened, isolated and threatened in social situations.”

Once violence was seen as a public health issue, the conversation changed: “We started to talk to offenders and ex-offenders and to challenge behaviours and the culture of violence,” says McVie.

Giving information about the legal repercussions of violent crime has not proven to be a deterrent, notes Jane Dailly from the national youth work agency YouthLink Scotland, who is national coordinator for No Knives, Better Lives, a programme aiming to raise awareness of the consequences of carrying a knife, and which provides information for young people.

Dailly cites feedback from focus groups of young people at risk of becoming involved in knife crime, which revealed that the potential impact on people’s families – particularly on perpetrators’ mothers and victims’ families – is one of the biggest concerns.

Youth work and positive prevention have been key, she says. No Knives, Better Lives launched in 2009 when knife crime was at a high. It supports work in 24 local authorities in Scotland, and involves partners including the police, youth workers and schools.

“What we are promoting, trying to talk to people about and asking them to implement, is more positive prevention,” Dailly says. “How do we help [young people] develop the capacity to make positive decisions and, in this case, choose never to carry a knife or to do something if they know that someone else is carrying a knife?”

A purely justice-driven approach doesn’t work, agrees Goodall. “You can arrest as many people as you like. You can search as many people as you like. You can throw away the key if you want to. It just won’t solve the problem.”

McVie thinks there are three things that have made tackling knife crime in Scotland easier than tackling it in London, where this year 18 children and teenagers have been killed with knives.

The first is that the VRU managed to efficiently tackle gang culture, targeting leaders and isolating them from followers. Second, she says, Scotland has a different culture of violence: incidents have tended to be over something more immediate and spur of the moment, often involving an encounter that escalated from an insult or argument, rather than the bloody end of a protracted dispute or connected to criminal activity.

Finally there is the issue of trust with the police. “In London institutional racism creates a barrier,” argues McVie. “If people see something going wrong they are less likely to tell the police because they don’t trust them. In Scotland, where racial bias has been less of an issue, it’s been very different. There is more trust between police and minority communities.”

It also seems the existence of a Scottish parliament has provided a more accessible polity in which to experiment and innovate. “The mantra of the people who drove this was: ‘Better to apologise later than ask for permission,’” explains Goodall. “So we just did stuff. If we think something’s a good idea we’ll just do it. I’m not going to sit around having meetings about it.”


You see Tommy this is why you are clearly not honest

People can see how selective you are and that you never actually bothered to read the article

Its why i asked you to do in full and the above is only in part

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Tue 12 Feb 2019 - 14:55



The main method used was heavy use of stop and search... mandatory jail sentencing... and increased length to jail terms...


Most of the rest is just the regular sort of rehabilitation type stuff that you would expect to be seeing in jails anyway...


The article also highlights distinct differences between Scotland and what's going on in London... and in fact it throws doubt over likelihood of the softly softly rehabilitation style tactics having much effect at all...


So that just leaves the increased use of stop and search, mandatory sentencing and increased length of sentencing being the main tactics that should be used, and are shown to have a big impact!!!





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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Thor on Tue 12 Feb 2019 - 14:59

Is Tommy reading a different article to everyone else?

It does not throw doubt over the method as treating kinfe crime as a health issue

It simple highlights some differences between scotland and the uk.

In no way does it say we should not adopt the same approach

It also like I said, showed that going after the gangs is the best way forward

They intially used stop adnd search and like all studies show and as stated in the article

Its ineffective, without sound intelligence

Tommy, you are closeminded and I would rather try something different, being as knide crime is continuing to increase

You continue to stick your head in the sand

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Tue 12 Feb 2019 - 16:07

No didge... the article says clearly how stop and search was stepped up, as well as introducing mandatory sentences, as well as increasing the length of sentences imposed...


Try reading...


"The average sentence for carrying a knife in Scotland has tripled, from four months in 2005-06 to an average of 13 months in 2014-15."



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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Thor on Tue 12 Feb 2019 - 16:11

I read that they "initially"  used stop and search and then went on to try the new methods

Which you seem unable to grasp

Which is why its pointless debating this with you

Who only want to read and see what you want to see

You ignore how they did actually bring the knife crime rates down

It was never stop and search that accomplished that

Like I say you are selective in what you think fits yourmindset

I even posted studies proving stop and search is ineffective and we know this even more due to the rise in knife crime we are seeing today

So my evidence has been presented many times here and you want to remain closeminded

Hopefully the Governemnt will see where new methods work

Now I am not going to get again dragged into one of your poor circular arguments

You dont want to believe the better methods, that is up to you and you will thus continue to back poor methods

Good luck with that

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Tue 12 Feb 2019 - 18:21



"...They campaigned really hard to get the legislation around knife crime changed so people would be more likely to get a mandatory sentence. There was also, at the outset, a lot of stop and search.”

The average sentence for carrying a knife in Scotland has tripled, from four months in 2005-06 to an average of 13 months in 2014-15..."




Read the above...


Getting the changes to sentencing so that a mandatory minimum was automatically applied... plus also getting the sentences imposed being longer and longer over time...


So...the phrase... "at the outset"... used in the context above about stop and search... would not mean that it was only used "initially" and not used throughout the following years mentioned... but would be interpreted to mean that increased stop and search was a big part of the overall strategy from the start... introduced "at the outset"...!



So... the method that worked in scotland was... increased use of stop and search... introduction of mandatory minimum sentences... increasing the length of sentences imposed...


Oh... let's not forget... setting up a few public awareness meetings for some of the likely knife offenders to attend... and telling them directly that there was going to be a large increase in stop and searches... plus an introduction of mandatory minimum sentences for anyone caught with a knife... plus the fact that minimum sentences increased from "...four months in 2005-06 to an average of 13 months in 2014-15..."



Whatever way you look at it... it was the increase in stop and search, backed up by mandatory minimum sentences, and then the increases in lengths of sentencing, that was what worked in scotland!!!




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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Jules on Wed 13 Feb 2019 - 3:52

Tommy Monk wrote:
Jules wrote:

That's not what the mayor said.  elephant


The mayor of London is a weaselly lying Labour scum bag...


The announcement I posted up was from the govt...


Meh, I playfully mentioned the mayor to get your dander up. I know you think he's inept, useless, worthless. You bit the bait. Razz


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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed 13 Feb 2019 - 7:16

I answered your post... nothing more...

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed 13 Feb 2019 - 7:43

Tommy Monk wrote:

"...They campaigned really hard to get the legislation around knife crime changed so people would be more likely to get a mandatory sentence. There was also, at the outset, a lot of stop and search.”

The average sentence for carrying a knife in Scotland has tripled, from four months in 2005-06 to an average of 13 months in 2014-15..."




Read the above...


Getting the changes to sentencing so that a mandatory minimum was automatically applied... plus also getting the sentences imposed being longer and longer over time...


So...the phrase... "at the outset"... used in the context above about stop and search... would not mean that it was only used "initially" and not used throughout the following years mentioned... but would be interpreted to mean that increased stop and search was a big part of the overall strategy from the start... introduced "at the outset"...!



So... the method that worked in scotland was... increased use of stop and search... introduction of mandatory minimum sentences... increasing the length of sentences imposed...


Oh... let's not forget... setting up a few public awareness meetings for some of the likely knife offenders to attend... and telling them directly that there was going to be a large increase in stop and searches... plus an introduction of mandatory minimum sentences for anyone caught with a knife... plus the fact that minimum sentences increased from "...four months in 2005-06 to an average of 13 months in 2014-15..."



Whatever way you look at it... it was the increase in stop and search, backed up by mandatory minimum sentences, and then the increases in lengths of sentencing, that was what worked in scotland!!!





Looks like didge has finally realised that I've been right all along with saying that in London there should be increased stop and search, mandatory minimum sentences for anyone caught carrying a knife, and increasing length of sentences!



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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed 13 Feb 2019 - 15:46




Well didge...!?


lol!


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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Thor on Wed 13 Feb 2019 - 17:46

Thor wrote:I read that they "initially"  used stop and search and then went on to try the new methods

Which you seem unable to grasp

Which is why its pointless debating this with you

Who only want to read and see what you want to see

You ignore how they did actually bring the knife crime rates down

It was never stop and search that accomplished that

Like I say you are selective in what you think fits yourmindset

I even posted studies proving stop and search is ineffective and we know this even more due to the rise in knife crime we are seeing today

So my evidence has been presented many times here and you want to remain closeminded

Hopefully the Governemnt will see where new methods work

Now I am not going to get again dragged into one of your poor circular arguments

You dont want to believe the better methods, that is up to you and you will thus continue to back poor methods

Good luck with that

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed 13 Feb 2019 - 21:20



Didge... the reduction in knife crime in scotland was down to two main strategies...


Firstly... increased stop and search, backed up by mandatory minimum sentences, plus the increase in length of minimum sentences given to those found guilty of carrying knives...


Secondly... a big campaign of telling everyone that the above was happening... and drumming it into people that there was going to be lots of stop and search going on, backed up by mandatory minimum sentences, and that there would also be increased length of sentencing being given to those found guilty of carrying knives...!!!



Now... apart from what I have detailed above... can you explain exactly what other methods you think were going on in scotland during this time, that were significant factors in the reduction of knife crime there...!?


?



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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Thu 14 Feb 2019 - 16:01

Well didge...?



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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri 15 Feb 2019 - 8:53

Still waiting didge...

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Thor on Fri 15 Feb 2019 - 8:57

Tommy Monk wrote:Still waiting didge...


You can keep bumping up the post and fail to read my last post

Its not going to happen, as you are closeminded to actually what works.

Stop and search is ineffective and the rise in knife crime confirms that, which many studies also prove

Even more how scotland was able to reduce knife crime, through many new methods

So you can wait until the cows come home

Maybe you should think to look skeptically at your own beliefs

That would be a could start, instead of putting stock into methods that continually fail to prevent knife crime

Good luck with that

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri 15 Feb 2019 - 9:04

Didge... the reduction in knife crime in scotland was down to two main strategies...


Firstly... increased stop and search, backed up by mandatory minimum sentences, plus the increase in length of minimum sentences given to those found guilty of carrying knives...


Secondly... a big campaign of telling everyone that the above was happening... and drumming it into people that there was going to be lots of stop and search going on, backed up by mandatory minimum sentences, and that there would also be increased length of sentencing being given to those found guilty of carrying knives...!!!



Now... apart from what I have detailed above... can you explain exactly what other methods you think were going on in scotland during this time, that were significant factors in the reduction of knife crime there...!?



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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Thor on Fri 15 Feb 2019 - 9:10

Thor wrote:Here is the main starting point of the article

Guardian wrote:

Treating knife crime as a health issue has led to a dramatic drop in stabbings: of the 35 deaths of young people in Britain this year, none were in Scotland

The Scottish approach was quite conventional at first. “The police played a central role in the beginning,” explains Christine Goodall, who along with two other surgeons founded Medics Against Violence in 2008, a campaign group which works with health professionals, law enforcement, social services and other bodies to thwart violent behaviour. “They campaigned really hard to get the legislation around knife crime changed so people would be more likely to get a mandatory sentence. There was also, at the outset, a lot of stop and search.”

The average sentence for carrying a knife in Scotland has tripled, from four months in 2005-06 to an average of 13 months in 2014-15.

The issues, says Goodall, were concentrated in certain areas, particularly around Glasgow. Using intelligence from police operations, the VRU identified those people most likely to offend and asked them to voluntarily attend the sheriff’s court. “They didn’t have to come but they were encouraged to by community police, teachers and social workers and a lot of them did come,” says Goodall.

“The police had mapped all the gangs and when people got there they saw their own pictures up in the court. The session started off with a warning: ‘We know who you are and if you carry on with this lifestyle we’re going to come down on you really hard. We’re going to arrest you and we’ll arrest the rest of the gang. You will be going to prison if this carries on.’”

But at that point the intervention at the court took a more creative and holistic approach.

“We spoke about the injuries we see as a result of the violence and had a mum talk about losing her son. That really hit home,” explains Goodall. Finally, they were offered a way out. “There was help with housing, relocation, employment and training. They were given a number to call if they wanted to take the offer up. Huge numbers of them did so, were put into the programme, and are no longer in the gang lifestyle.”

The decision to treat knife crime as a public health issue – rather than simply a police matter – appears to have underpinned both the direction and support.


The fact that the initiative is publicly funded means strategies can be coordinated coherently, and organisations can concentrate on the task at hand rather than constantly looking for money to fund their next project. That makes a big difference, says Goodall.

“The problem for charities is that they have to compete for short-term funding,” she says. “So we’re able to take a more coordinated approach with more stable support.”

Susan McVie, professor of quantitative criminology at the University of Edinburgh, points out that the police, working alone, have a limited capacity to prevent knife crime.

Fewer than 2% of stop and searches in Scotland result in the recovery of a knife, she says. “It’s hard to profile kids who carry weapons because a lot of those who carry a weapon aren’t the ones you would expect. They might be kids from middle-class backgrounds who feel frightened, isolated and threatened in social situations.”

Once violence was seen as a public health issue, the conversation changed: “We started to talk to offenders and ex-offenders and to challenge behaviours and the culture of violence,” says McVie.

Giving information about the legal repercussions of violent crime has not proven to be a deterrent, notes Jane Dailly from the national youth work agency YouthLink Scotland, who is national coordinator for No Knives, Better Lives, a programme aiming to raise awareness of the consequences of carrying a knife, and which provides information for young people.

Dailly cites feedback from focus groups of young people at risk of becoming involved in knife crime, which revealed that the potential impact on people’s families – particularly on perpetrators’ mothers and victims’ families – is one of the biggest concerns.

Youth work and positive prevention have been key, she says. No Knives, Better Lives launched in 2009 when knife crime was at a high. It supports work in 24 local authorities in Scotland, and involves partners including the police, youth workers and schools.

“What we are promoting, trying to talk to people about and asking them to implement, is more positive prevention,” Dailly says. “How do we help [young people] develop the capacity to make positive decisions and, in this case, choose never to carry a knife or to do something if they know that someone else is carrying a knife?”

A purely justice-driven approach doesn’t work, agrees Goodall. “You can arrest as many people as you like. You can search as many people as you like. You can throw away the key if you want to. It just won’t solve the problem.”

McVie thinks there are three things that have made tackling knife crime in Scotland easier than tackling it in London, where this year 18 children and teenagers have been killed with knives.

The first is that the VRU managed to efficiently tackle gang culture, targeting leaders and isolating them from followers. Second, she says, Scotland has a different culture of violence: incidents have tended to be over something more immediate and spur of the moment, often involving an encounter that escalated from an insult or argument, rather than the bloody end of a protracted dispute or connected to criminal activity.

Finally there is the issue of trust with the police. “In London institutional racism creates a barrier,” argues McVie. “If people see something going wrong they are less likely to tell the police because they don’t trust them. In Scotland, where racial bias has been less of an issue, it’s been very different. There is more trust between police and minority communities.”

It also seems the existence of a Scottish parliament has provided a more accessible polity in which to experiment and innovate. “The mantra of the people who drove this was: ‘Better to apologise later than ask for permission,’” explains Goodall. “So we just did stuff. If we think something’s a good idea we’ll just do it. I’m not going to sit around having meetings about it.”


You see Tommy this is why you are clearly not honest

People can see how selective you are and that you never actually bothered to read the article

Its why i asked you to do in full and the above is only in part


This proves how selective Tommy is in reading and inventing new claims to what actually happened

I not going to debate someone who now invokes lies to what actually happened

Hence there is little point discussing with someone closeminded

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri 15 Feb 2019 - 9:12




So...


A big campaign of telling everyone that the above was happening... and drumming it into people that there was going to be lots of stop and search going on, backed up by mandatory minimum sentences, and that there would also be increased length of sentencing being given to those found guilty of carrying knives...!!!



As i already said...


What else then...!?

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Thor on Fri 15 Feb 2019 - 9:18

Can anyone else see where it claims "drummed into people there was going to be a lot of stop and search?"

See Tommy invents things not even said

He then avoids what they did actually do, to get to the heart of the problem

Now I am done explaining and if he simple cannot understand what did happen from reading the article, there is little point in trying to discuss this with him

As in the end the courts never came down hard on those gangs. Contrary to what Tommy believes and neither did the Police

I shall leave these last points again for Tommy, in the hope it may one day sink in

That is all I will say on the matter


The issues, says Goodall, were concentrated in certain areas, particularly around Glasgow. Using intelligence from police operations, the VRU identified those people most likely to offend and asked them to voluntarily attend the sheriff’s court. “They didn’t have to come but they were encouraged to by community police, teachers and social workers and a lot of them did come,” says Goodall.

“The police had mapped all the gangs and when people got there they saw their own pictures up in the court. The session started off with a warning: ‘We know who you are and if you carry on with this lifestyle we’re going to come down on you really hard. We’re going to arrest you and we’ll arrest the rest of the gang. You will be going to prison if this carries on.’”

But at that point the intervention at the court took a more creative and holistic approach.

“We spoke about the injuries we see as a result of the violence and had a mum talk about losing her son. That really hit home,” explains Goodall. Finally, they were offered a way out. “There was help with housing, relocation, employment and training. They were given a number to call if they wanted to take the offer up. Huge numbers of them did so, were put into the programme, and are no longer in the gang lifestyle.”

The decision to treat knife crime as a public health issue – rather than simply a police matter – appears to have underpinned both the direction and support.

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri 15 Feb 2019 - 9:27



The session started off with a warning: ‘We know who you are and if you carry on with this lifestyle we’re going to come down on you really hard. We’re going to arrest you and we’ll arrest the rest of the gang. You will be going to prison if this carries on.’”



So... heavy increase in stop and search... mandatory minimum sentencing... increasing length of sentencing...


Also... a big campaign of telling everyone that the above would be happening...


These were the main tactics involved!!!



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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri 15 Feb 2019 - 10:53




But didge previously said that the above tactics don't work when I said they were needed in London...!!!


What a twat!!!


lol!

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Thor on Fri 15 Feb 2019 - 11:08

Evidence shows that stop and search is a blunt tool for tackling knife crime, and may even make things worse. We’ve known this since the early 2000s when a home office study published shortly after the Stephen Lawrence inquiry found it had “a small impact on the detection and prevention of crime” and provided “little solid evidence that searches have a deterrent effect”. Similar results were found in 2011 and 2016.


The good news is there are tested alternatives that lead to significant reductions in knife crime, and that that senior police leaders have shown an interest in them.
 
At the turn of the century, Scotland was the most violent country in the developed world and Glasgow had the highest murder rate in western Europe. Yet by 2017, of the 35 children and young people who were killed by knives, none were in Scotland.


Rather than insisting that knife crime could only be supressed by tough policing, the Scottish government funded the Violence Reduction Unit - a program which tackled knife crime as a public health issue. This meant taking a holistic approach, focusing on work, housing, education, and counselling. Young people at risk from knife crime were offered support that addressed a whole range of challenges that help to create a situation where they might turn to violence. In the early days the programme involved a heavy emphasis on stop and search, and threats of serious jail time if participants didn’t straighten up and fly right. However this was found to be ineffective and it was de-emphasised in later iterations.


In the US, the Boston Gun project achieved similar effects: known gang-members were presented with evidence of their crimes, and detailed explanations of the consequences of continuing, as well as incentives to stop offending: increased access to social services as well as education and job opportunities.


It is encouraging therefore, to learn that England’s most senior police officer Cressida Dick, Chief Inspector of the Met, has been on a fact-finding mission to Scotland to learn more. Not only that, but she seems to have come away with a more holistic view of policing. Recently, she highlighted the role of poverty in causing crime and the limits of policing if the wider drivers of criminality are ignored.
                           
Or it would be encouraging, if Cressida Dick wasn’t calling for increased use of stop and search at the same time. In fact, we are still hearing the Met, the Mayor and others double down on stop and search.         
                                   
StopWatch research and monitoring coalition recently released a report exposing the emotional and psychological trauma imposed by the London’s so called ‘Gangs Matrix’ in which innocent, mostly black men, are targeted for harassment and humiliation on a regular basis. The finings re-affirm the counter-productive nature of programs like stop and search.


The former London Mayor Boris Johnson, who left office expressing concern about the overuse of stop and search, called for the police to do more of it at the Conservative Party Conference. Earlier this autumn the current Mayor, who has already performed a few U-turns on the issue, called for violence to be treated as a public health issue and admitted that solutions won’t come overnight. It remains to be seen whether he can be pushed to follow through.


Those at the top know that stop and search is ineffective and counter-productive. They also know what an effective solution would look like. But faced with evidence that the treatment has failed, they still cannot bring themselves to abandon it entirely and try a genuine cure.


Tackling knife crime will be hard, and it may not ever be completely achieved. But surely we owe it to generations of young people who grow up in its shadow to make a serious, committed and clear-eyed attempt? That starts with doing what really works – not what’s failed before and continues to fail now.

 https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/kam-gill/stop-and-search-makes-matters-worse-in-uk-so-why-not-try-something-new

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Maddog on Fri 15 Feb 2019 - 11:15

Didnt the Nazis and Soviets use a lot of stop and search? 

I mean in a way, one could argue that concentration camps and gulags had some impact on behavior.  

But that's a pretty steep price to pay.  

Franklin said something to this effect.  "Those that are willing to sacrifice freedom in exchange for security with eventually have neither".

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Re: Horror as man in his 30s dies after his 'throat was slit with a huge knife outside off licence' - as boy, 17, is shot and left fighting for life during another night of bloodshed in London

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri 15 Feb 2019 - 15:26

Maddog wrote:Didnt the Nazis and Soviets use a lot of stop and search? 

I mean in a way, one could argue that concentration camps and gulags had some impact on behavior.  

But that's a pretty steep price to pay.  

Franklin said something to this effect.  "Those that are willing to sacrifice freedom in exchange for security with eventually have neither".


Hardly compatible... just a red herring...



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