75 year anniversary of the freeing of Leningrad.

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Post by Syl on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:08 pm

Horrors suffered that few of us can imagine in todays world.
People must remember the horrors of the past to pray that they dont/cant happen again in the civilised world.

"A human body lies disregarded on the frozen ground as two starving women scavenge meat from a horse’s carcass during the Siege of Leningrad.
Up to two million people died in the longest and deadliest military blockade in recent history as the city was cut off for more than two years.
One of the most shocking examples of Adolf Hitler’s brutality and sadism, it claimed 10 times as many lives in the Second World War as the atomic bombs dropped on ­Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.
When the Nazi siege ended only 700,000 remained of the city’s previous population of three million."


If you have a spare 5 minutes please read one of the most moving accounts of how these people suffered.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/siege-leningrad-mum-killed-baby-13967600

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Post by Maddog on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:37 pm

Syl wrote:Horrors suffered that few of us can imagine in todays world.
People must remember the horrors of the past to pray that they dont/cant happen again in the civilised world.

"A human body lies disregarded on the frozen ground as two starving women scavenge meat from a horse’s carcass during the Siege of Leningrad.
Up to two million people died in the longest and deadliest military blockade in recent history as the city was cut off for more than two years.
One of the most shocking examples of Adolf Hitler’s brutality and sadism, it claimed 10 times as many lives in the Second World War as the atomic bombs dropped on ­Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.
When the Nazi siege ended only 700,000 remained of the city’s previous population of three million."


If you have a spare 5 minutes please read one of the most moving accounts of how these people suffered.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/siege-leningrad-mum-killed-baby-13967600


And remember how evil leaders rise to power. They don't start off promising to get millions killed.  It's usually promises of making the lives of the majority better at the expense of a minority.  Free stuff taken from those that dont deserve it and given to those that do.  Wink

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Post by Syl on Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:05 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:Horrors suffered that few of us can imagine in todays world.
People must remember the horrors of the past to pray that they dont/cant happen again in the civilised world.

"A human body lies disregarded on the frozen ground as two starving women scavenge meat from a horse’s carcass during the Siege of Leningrad.
Up to two million people died in the longest and deadliest military blockade in recent history as the city was cut off for more than two years.
One of the most shocking examples of Adolf Hitler’s brutality and sadism, it claimed 10 times as many lives in the Second World War as the atomic bombs dropped on ­Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.
When the Nazi siege ended only 700,000 remained of the city’s previous population of three million."


If you have a spare 5 minutes please read one of the most moving accounts of how these people suffered.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/siege-leningrad-mum-killed-baby-13967600


And remember how evil leaders rise to power. They don't start off promising to get millions killed.  It's usually promises of making the lives of the majority better at the expense of a minority.  Free stuff taken from those that dont deserve it and given to those that do.  Wink

Greed.....the rich get richer etc, well they still do, maybe the bankers are the new despots in the modern world.

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Post by Maddog on Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:16 pm

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:


And remember how evil leaders rise to power. They don't start off promising to get millions killed.  It's usually promises of making the lives of the majority better at the expense of a minority.  Free stuff taken from those that dont deserve it and given to those that do.  Wink

Greed.....the rich get richer etc,  well they still do, maybe the bankers are the new despots in the modern world.

I was thinking more towards envy.

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Post by Syl on Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:28 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:

Greed.....the rich get richer etc,  well they still do, maybe the bankers are the new despots in the modern world.

I was thinking more towards envy.

Greed, power, envy, none of them make for a happy society.

Can you imagine living through what those people did in Leningrad, deliberately cut off from food, warmth, amenities from September 1941 to January 1944. Over 2 million people in that one city died.

How desperate must a mother be to feed her baby to her other children to keep them alive, reports of men killing their wives to use as food to feed the family, living amongst starvation, rats, and disease for so long....it's unimaginable, but proves just how strong the human spirit can be.

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:47 am

Smile

Russia lost over 20 million people (mostly young men) to the Germans during WWII (around half of them civilian losses to famines and sieges..).

Roughly the same number as were lost to their Soviet dictatorships from 1915 onwards..

As a result of these combined evils -- the loss of an entire "generation" of men and boys -- Russia today has less people than it had prior to WWII.

Russia and Japan are the two major countries who have seen their populations shrinking over the past half century, as old people die off at a greater rate then they're being replaced..

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Post by Eilzel on Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:17 am

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:Horrors suffered that few of us can imagine in todays world.
People must remember the horrors of the past to pray that they dont/cant happen again in the civilised world.

"A human body lies disregarded on the frozen ground as two starving women scavenge meat from a horse’s carcass during the Siege of Leningrad.
Up to two million people died in the longest and deadliest military blockade in recent history as the city was cut off for more than two years.
One of the most shocking examples of Adolf Hitler’s brutality and sadism, it claimed 10 times as many lives in the Second World War as the atomic bombs dropped on ­Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.
When the Nazi siege ended only 700,000 remained of the city’s previous population of three million."


If you have a spare 5 minutes please read one of the most moving accounts of how these people suffered.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/siege-leningrad-mum-killed-baby-13967600


And remember how evil leaders rise to power. They don't start off promising to get millions killed.  It's usually promises of making the lives of the majority better at the expense of a minority.  Free stuff taken from those that dont deserve it and given to those that do.  Wink

A very calculated interpretation. In particular, in this case, this came at the expense of an ethnic minority with a different culture and religion and promises of a nationalist utopia.

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:41 am

Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:


And remember how evil leaders rise to power. They don't start off promising to get millions killed.  It's usually promises of making the lives of the majority better at the expense of a minority.  Free stuff taken from those that dont deserve it and given to those that do.  Wink

A very calculated interpretation. In particular, in this case, this came at the expense of an ethnic minority with a different culture and religion and promises of a nationalist utopia.

You do realise you are talking about both Stalin and Hitler there mate?

The Soviet Union was a nationalist cause, Communism, was like Nazism basically a religion and many ethnic minorities suffered at the expense of this vile utopia

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Post by Maddog on Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:31 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

A very calculated interpretation. In particular, in this case, this came at the expense of an ethnic minority with a different culture and religion and promises of a nationalist utopia.

You do realise you are talking about both Stalin and Hitler there mate?

The Soviet Union was a nationalist cause, Communism, was like Nazism basically a religion and many ethnic minorities suffered at the expense of this vile utopia
I was talking about Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro you name it.  All of them start off talking about how they will help the masses. None of them mentioned the tens of millions that would die as a result of that "help".

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:03 am

Maddog wrote:
Thor wrote:

You do realise you are talking about both Stalin and Hitler there mate?

The Soviet Union was a nationalist cause, Communism, was like Nazism basically a religion and many ethnic minorities suffered at the expense of this vile utopia
I was talking about Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro you name it.  All of them start off talking about how they will help the masses. None of them mentioned the tens of millions that would die as a result of that "help".


Was not even making the point to you mate, but agree with you

What gets me is how the left fail to see is that in many cases, Communism has been based infinately on nationalism and at the expense of minorities. People on the left ignore these historical facts.

Russians call the war with Germany in WW2 the "Great Patriotic War"

This is what really makes me concerned. those on the left that applaud Communism. That no matter how many times it continues to fail and see countless people suffer. People still think its a great idea. Even today its taught as a good idea.

It should be held alongside Nazism as appalling, yet leftist teachers like many religious idiots. Are apologists for the worst barbarity in history. As the reality is we have only see Nazism once and it was appalling and hateful. Communism has been replicated many times and the out come has always been the same and sadly its still apologised for and taught as a product of good

That is why some people on the left, in teaching are as idiotic as Islamic extremists

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:28 am

Thor wrote:
Maddog wrote:
Thor wrote:

You do realise you are talking about both Stalin and Hitler there mate?

The Soviet Union was a nationalist cause, Communism, was like Nazism basically a religion and many ethnic minorities suffered at the expense of this vile utopia
I was talking about Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro you name it.  All of them start off talking about how they will help the masses. None of them mentioned the tens of millions that would die as a result of that "help".


Was not even making the point to you mate, but agree with you

What gets me is how the left fail to see is that in many cases, Communism has been based infinately on nationalism and at the expense of minorities. People on the left ignore these historical facts.

Russians call the war with Germany in WW2 the "Great Patriotic War"

This is what really makes me concerned. those on the left that applaud Communism. That no matter how many times it continues to fail and see countless people suffer. People still think its a great idea. Even today its taught as a good idea.

It should be held alongside Nazism as appalling, yet leftist teachers like many religious idiots. Are apologists for the worst barbarity in history. As the reality is we have only see Nazism once and it was appalling and hateful. Communism has been replicated many times and the out come has always been the same and sadly its still apologised for and taught as a product of good

That is why some people on the left, in teaching are as idiotic as Islamic extremists

The bolded section - I wouldn't say many on the Left fail to realise this; in fact I'd say this is how many of Left justify standing by communist ideas while condemning the nations that supposedly practiced them.

And before you get the completely wrong end of the stick on this, let me make it clear: I utterly condemn the atrocities of Maoism, Leninism, Stalinism and the rest. They were the most atrocious crimes committed in the name of LW ideology. AND I think full blown communism, even without the intentional murder of so many people, is completely unworkable in the real human world.

But the nationalist aspects were part of the problem in those countries too, and in their treatment of minorities.

It is absolutely not the case that most Leftists today who support any form of socialism can be in any way connected with the ideals of those -isms mentioned above. Yes, a tiny minority on the left might also be nationalist or anti-Semitic, but the vast majority on the modern Left are in no way interested in nationalist ideology or have any problem with minorities (in fact, many go too far with their 'positive discrimination').

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:42 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:


Was not even making the point to you mate, but agree with you

What gets me is how the left fail to see is that in many cases, Communism has been based infinately on nationalism and at the expense of minorities. People on the left ignore these historical facts.

Russians call the war with Germany in WW2 the "Great Patriotic War"

This is what really makes me concerned. those on the left that applaud Communism. That no matter how many times it continues to fail and see countless people suffer. People still think its a great idea. Even today its taught as a good idea.

It should be held alongside Nazism as appalling, yet leftist teachers like many religious idiots. Are apologists for the worst barbarity in history. As the reality is we have only see Nazism once and it was appalling and hateful. Communism has been replicated many times and the out come has always been the same and sadly its still apologised for and taught as a product of good

That is why some people on the left, in teaching are as idiotic as Islamic extremists

The bolded section - I wouldn't say many on the Left fail to realise this; in fact I'd say this is how many of Left justify standing by communist ideas while condemning the nations that supposedly practiced them.

And before you get the completely wrong end of the stick on this, let me make it clear: I utterly condemn the atrocities of Maoism, Leninism, Stalinism and the rest. They were the most atrocious crimes committed in the name of LW ideology. AND I think full blown communism, even without the intentional murder of so many people, is completely unworkable in the real human world.

But the nationalist aspects were part of the problem in those countries too, and in their treatment of minorities.

It is absolutely not the case that most Leftists today who support any form of socialism can be in any way connected with the ideals of those -isms mentioned above. Yes, a tiny minority on the left might also be nationalist or anti-Semitic, but the vast majority on the modern Left are in no way interested in nationalist ideology or have any problem with minorities (in fact, many go too far with their 'positive discrimination').

Come again?

I never seen such a poor point raised by you

You claim the left understand them by not seeing how in each and every case, it requires totaltiarianism to enforce Communism?

I mean such sentiments would argue off the economic polices of Nazism. In that they were some how good but not put into practice right by exterminating 12 million people?

You should condemn communism full stop and this is the problem with the left, they never do and like you are doing make poor excuses, based off the fact in every situation of communism it has failed

How many more examples do you require in practice for this to sink in?

Seriously?

So condemning the leaders of these regemes does not go far enough and quite frankly is a copout by you

There is nothing more abhorant than Nazism and Communism. The later causing far more deaths than the former, with each never caring that they did.

A tiny minority you say?

I would say millions is not tiny. its substancial

The reality is every single communist country was based on nationalism, as it would be again if it happened in this country

You fail again to see how little the difference is between the Far left and right.

What is the biggest issue here is your inability to understand humans or evolution in this regard

Socialism looks to stagnate humans and form them into a view that freedom is denied to think for themselves. Its socialism worst failing.

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:51 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:


Was not even making the point to you mate, but agree with you

What gets me is how the left fail to see is that in many cases, Communism has been based infinately on nationalism and at the expense of minorities. People on the left ignore these historical facts.

Russians call the war with Germany in WW2 the "Great Patriotic War"

This is what really makes me concerned. those on the left that applaud Communism. That no matter how many times it continues to fail and see countless people suffer. People still think its a great idea. Even today its taught as a good idea.

It should be held alongside Nazism as appalling, yet leftist teachers like many religious idiots. Are apologists for the worst barbarity in history. As the reality is we have only see Nazism once and it was appalling and hateful. Communism has been replicated many times and the out come has always been the same and sadly its still apologised for and taught as a product of good

That is why some people on the left, in teaching are as idiotic as Islamic extremists

The bolded section - I wouldn't say many on the Left fail to realise this; in fact I'd say this is how many of Left justify standing by communist ideas while condemning the nations that supposedly practiced them.

And before you get the completely wrong end of the stick on this, let me make it clear: I utterly condemn the atrocities of Maoism, Leninism, Stalinism and the rest. They were the most atrocious crimes committed in the name of LW ideology. AND I think full blown communism, even without the intentional murder of so many people, is completely unworkable in the real human world.

But the nationalist aspects were part of the problem in those countries too, and in their treatment of minorities.

It is absolutely not the case that most Leftists today who support any form of socialism can be in any way connected with the ideals of those -isms mentioned above. Yes, a tiny minority on the left might also be nationalist or anti-Semitic, but the vast majority on the modern Left are in no way interested in nationalist ideology or have any problem with minorities (in fact, many go too far with their 'positive discrimination').

Come again?

I never seen such a poor point raised by you

You claim the left understand them by not seeing how in each and every case, it requires totaltiarianism to enforce Communism?

I mean such sentiments would argue off the economic polices of Nazism. In that they were some how good but not put into practice right by exterminating 12 million people?

You should condemn communism full stop and this is the problem with the left, they never do and like you are doing make poor excuses, based off the fact in every situation of communism it has failed

How many more examples do you require in practice for this to sink in?

Seriously?

So condemning the leaders of these regemes does not go far enough and quite frankly is a copout by you

There is nothing more abhorant than Nazism and Communism. The later causing far more deaths than the former, with each never caring that they did.

A tiny minority you say?

I would say millions is not tiny. its substancial

The reality is every single communist country was based on nationalism, as it would be again if it happened in this country

You fail again to see how little the difference is between the Far left and right.

What is the biggest issue here is your inability to understand humans or evolution in this regard

Socialism looks to stagnate humans and form them into a view that freedom is denied to think for themselves. Its socialism worst failing.

You answer so many things for me.

1. Millions spread over 200 countries is tiny when you consider the influence they have, and are completely outnumbered by the majority of LWers, who are Democratic Socialists or Social Democrats for the most part. Look at this forum, there are plenty of LWers here - but how many of us are communists? Here's a clue: you won't need one hand to count them all.

2. "Every communist country was based on nationalism." OK, so it wasn't only communism involved in those crimes. Communism was the major part of it, but not that alone.

3. "There is nothing more abhorrent than Nazism and Communism." I AGREE! Though I'd put Nazism at the top of the pile. The former intentionally targeted and murdered over 8 million people. YES the death toll of communism is much higher, but most died due to BAD POLICY in those places, many were targeted, but not on the scale as under Nazism. Also, communism arose in many places, Nazism in much fewer. Communism also rose as a result OF colonialism, imperialism and fascism. So Nazism/Fascism led to the rise of communism in the first place.

Again, I'm not even defending communism here, but the majority of LWers in the developed world today are INCOMPARABLE to the leftists of the mid-twentieth century.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:02 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

Come again?

I never seen such a poor point raised by you

You claim the left understand them by not seeing how in each and every case, it requires totaltiarianism to enforce Communism?

I mean such sentiments would argue off the economic polices of Nazism. In that they were some how good but not put into practice right by exterminating 12 million people?

You should condemn communism full stop and this is the problem with the left, they never do and like you are doing make poor excuses, based off the fact in every situation of communism it has failed

How many more examples do you require in practice for this to sink in?

Seriously?

So condemning the leaders of these regemes does not go far enough and quite frankly is a copout by you

There is nothing more abhorant than Nazism and Communism. The later causing far more deaths than the former, with each never caring that they did.

A tiny minority you say?

I would say millions is not tiny. its substancial

The reality is every single communist country was based on nationalism, as it would be again if it happened in this country

You fail again to see how little the difference is between the Far left and right.

What is the biggest issue here is your inability to understand humans or evolution in this regard

Socialism looks to stagnate humans and form them into a view that freedom is denied to think for themselves. Its socialism worst failing.

You answer so many things for me.

1. Millions spread over 200 countries is tiny when you consider the influence they have, and are completely outnumbered by the majority of LWers, who are Democratic Socialists or Social Democrats for the most part. Look at this forum, there are plenty of LWers here - but how many of us are communists? Here's a clue: you won't need one hand to count them all.

2. "Every communist country was based on nationalism." OK, so it wasn't only communism involved in those crimes. Communism was the major part of it, but not that alone.

3. "There is nothing more abhorrent than Nazism and Communism." I AGREE! Though I'd put Nazism at the top of the pile. The former intentionally targeted and murdered over 8 million people. YES the death toll of communism is much higher, but most died due to BAD POLICY in those places, many were targeted, but not on the scale as under Nazism. Also, communism arose in many places, Nazism in much fewer. Communism also rose as a result OF colonialism, imperialism and fascism. So Nazism/Fascism led to the rise of communism in the first place.

Again, I'm not even defending communism here, but the majority of LWers in the developed world today are INCOMPARABLE to the leftists of the mid-twentieth century.  

1) Bullshit on every level as again Communists took by force power in Russia. They were a minority and then many other left wingers jumped on board with them. As they did in China. North Korea etc. So saying they are tiny, is at best idiotic mate. When the influence we now see comes from the left in teaching to students. When they hold the position you do to make apologist arguments for Communism. When we should see this in the same light of Nazism, is what is wrong here. I mean in so many examples and so many countries where Communism was put into practice the same situation happens. Countless die and are persecuted based on basically a fundementalist religion called communism

2) What? That some how now excuses the communist element, even though nationslism is a fundemental part of this?

Come again?

3) Why would you place Nazism on the top of the pile? I would place them equally as abhorant. The later intentionally targeted people based on class, ethnicity, religion etc and is still doing so today. Just look at how in North Korea they have concentration camps where many Christians are held. In China they have concentration camps holding Muslims. You see this is what astounds me with your apologism to Communism, where you try to say one is worst than the other.

They are equally as bad and yet more has died under Communism and people are still suffering today from Communism

Sorry, you just topped your previous dumb point mate. You reached a new level

Your point about Nazism rising in only a few places is inherantly also false. In fact in many countries Far right polictics had taken hold in Italy, Spain, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Bulgaria etc, compared to only then the Soviet Union. Romania for example also murdered many Jews. Which people often gloss over.

Yes you are emphatically defending communism, because you fail to condemn the ideology itself. You instead blame those who implimented the ideology.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:08 am

Have a read mate

https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2019/jan/14/china-Muslim-uighur-detention-camps-podcast

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:34 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

You answer so many things for me.

1. Millions spread over 200 countries is tiny when you consider the influence they have, and are completely outnumbered by the majority of LWers, who are Democratic Socialists or Social Democrats for the most part. Look at this forum, there are plenty of LWers here - but how many of us are communists? Here's a clue: you won't need one hand to count them all.

2. "Every communist country was based on nationalism." OK, so it wasn't only communism involved in those crimes. Communism was the major part of it, but not that alone.

3. "There is nothing more abhorrent than Nazism and Communism." I AGREE! Though I'd put Nazism at the top of the pile. The former intentionally targeted and murdered over 8 million people. YES the death toll of communism is much higher, but most died due to BAD POLICY in those places, many were targeted, but not on the scale as under Nazism. Also, communism arose in many places, Nazism in much fewer. Communism also rose as a result OF colonialism, imperialism and fascism. So Nazism/Fascism led to the rise of communism in the first place.

Again, I'm not even defending communism here, but the majority of LWers in the developed world today are INCOMPARABLE to the leftists of the mid-twentieth century.  

1) Bullshit on every level as again Communists took by force power in Russia. They were a minority and then many other left wingers jumped on board with them. As they did in China. North Korea etc. So saying they are tiny, is at best idiotic mate. When the influence we now see comes from the left in teaching to students. When they hold the position you do to make apologist arguments for Communism. When we should see this in the same light of Nazism, is what is wrong here. I mean in so many examples and so many countries where Communism was put into practice the same situation happens. Countless die and are persecuted based on basically a fundementalist religion called communism

2) What? That some how now excuses the communist element, even though nationslism is a fundemental part of this?

Come again?

3) Why would you place Nazism on the top of the pile? I would place them equally as abhorant. The later intentionally targeted people based on class, ethnicity, religion etc and is still doing so today. Just look at how in North Korea they have concentration camps where many Christians are held. In China they have concentration camps holding Muslims. You see this is what astounds me with your apologism to Communism, where you try to say one is worst than the other.

They are equally as bad and yet more has died under Communism and people are still suffering today from Communism

Sorry, you just topped your previous dumb point mate. You reached a new level

Your point about Nazism rising in only a few places is inherantly also false. In fact in many countries Far right polictics had taken hold in Italy, Spain, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Bulgaria etc, compared to only then the Soviet Union. Romania for example also murdered many Jews. Which people often gloss over.

Yes you are emphatically defending communism, because you fail to condemn the ideology itself. You instead blame those who implimented the ideology.

Oh and Communism certainly did not rise because of Nazism and Fascism

That is inherantly bollocks

The later in part  arose because of communism in the Soviet Union that was spreading into Europe and had been since the end of WW1

As tell me what fascist or nazi states were in practice before the Soviet Union of the siezure of power by the Bolsheviks?

I mean you are meant to be a teacher and you are telling me, this is what you are teaching kids????. That communism arose out of Nazism and Fascism?

WTF

I simple dispair at what is being taught today in left wing circles and if by the above you think you are not an apologist for Communism. That shows you inherantly are by such poor revisionist history.

Communism certainly arose from Imperialism, but colonialism?

Russia was built and formed from colonialism and conquest, which then the Soviet Union expanded on.

Please tell me you do  not teach history mate, if that is the poor views you are making.

The problem is when you have a rise of one extreme, you see a rise to the other extreme and its what we are seeing happenning again today. The far right were nothing a decade ago, but because of the left moving more to the left before this and up until now in Europe. We have seen the Far right rise again. As they have been able to capitalise on fear.

I respect you loads mate and to me you are very intelligent, but sometimes you dont half talk bollocks. Which is what frustrates me when you make such poor rivisonist apologist arguments for Communism.

Laters

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:18 am

Thor wrote:
Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

You answer so many things for me.

1. Millions spread over 200 countries is tiny when you consider the influence they have, and are completely outnumbered by the majority of LWers, who are Democratic Socialists or Social Democrats for the most part. Look at this forum, there are plenty of LWers here - but how many of us are communists? Here's a clue: you won't need one hand to count them all.

2. "Every communist country was based on nationalism." OK, so it wasn't only communism involved in those crimes. Communism was the major part of it, but not that alone.

3. "There is nothing more abhorrent than Nazism and Communism." I AGREE! Though I'd put Nazism at the top of the pile. The former intentionally targeted and murdered over 8 million people. YES the death toll of communism is much higher, but most died due to BAD POLICY in those places, many were targeted, but not on the scale as under Nazism. Also, communism arose in many places, Nazism in much fewer. Communism also rose as a result OF colonialism, imperialism and fascism. So Nazism/Fascism led to the rise of communism in the first place.

Again, I'm not even defending communism here, but the majority of LWers in the developed world today are INCOMPARABLE to the leftists of the mid-twentieth century.  

1) Bullshit on every level as again Communists took by force power in Russia. They were a minority and then many other left wingers jumped on board with them. As they did in China. North Korea etc. So saying they are tiny, is at best idiotic mate. When the influence we now see comes from the left in teaching to students. When they hold the position you do to make apologist arguments for Communism. When we should see this in the same light of Nazism, is what is wrong here. I mean in so many examples and so many countries where Communism was put into practice the same situation happens. Countless die and are persecuted based on basically a fundementalist religion called communism

2) What? That some how now excuses the communist element, even though nationslism is a fundemental part of this?

Come again?

3) Why would you place Nazism on the top of the pile? I would place them equally as abhorant. The later intentionally targeted people based on class, ethnicity, religion etc and is still doing so today. Just look at how in North Korea they have concentration camps where many Christians are held. In China they have concentration camps holding Muslims. You see this is what astounds me with your apologism to Communism, where you try to say one is worst than the other.

They are equally as bad and yet more has died under Communism and people are still suffering today from Communism

Sorry, you just topped your previous dumb point mate. You reached a new level

Your point about Nazism rising in only a few places is inherantly also false. In fact in many countries Far right polictics had taken hold in Italy, Spain, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Bulgaria etc, compared to only then the Soviet Union. Romania for example also murdered many Jews. Which people often gloss over.

Yes you are emphatically defending communism, because you fail to condemn the ideology itself. You instead blame those who implimented the ideology.

Oh and Communism certainly did not rise because of Nazism and Fascism

That is inherantly bollocks

The later in part  arose because of communism in the Soviet Union that was spreading into Europe and had been since the end of WW1

As tell me what fascist or nazi states were in practice before the Soviet Union of the siezure of power by the Bolsheviks?

I mean you are meant to be a teacher and you are telling me, this is what you are teaching kids????. That communism arose out of Nazism and Fascism?

WTF

I simple dispair at what is being taught today in left wing circles and if by the above you think you are not an apologist for Communism. That shows you inherantly are by such poor revisionist history.

Communism certainly arose from Imperialism, but colonialism?

Russia was built and formed from colonialism and conquest, which then the Soviet Union expanded on.

Please tell me you do  not teach history mate, if that is the poor views you are making.

The problem is when you have a rise of one extreme, you see a rise to the other extreme and its what we are seeing happenning again today. The far right were nothing a decade ago, but because of the left moving more to the left before this and up until now in Europe. We have seen the Far right rise again. As they have been able to capitalise on fear.

I respect you loads mate and to me you are very intelligent, but sometimes you dont half talk bollocks. Which is what frustrates me when you make such poor rivisonist apologist arguments for Communism.

Laters

I never said communism only arose from Fascism, I also said it arose from Imperialism and Colonialism, which is absolutely true. Being former colonies pushed a lot of nations (Burma, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos etc...) toward the Soviet Model as a direct result of being formerly colonial possessions of Britain and France. They aren't the only examples. The fact YOU point out that the rise of one extreme leads to rise of the other IS EXACTLY what I also just said, but you obviously missed in your excitement of trying to show boat.

You even endlessly miss the point that I do NOT support communism, I do NOT apologise for it and I do NOT think it is a credible model for any country to attempt to build.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:25 am

Eilzel wrote:

I never said communism only arose from Fascism, I also said it arose from Imperialism and Colonialism, which is absolutely true. Being former colonies pushed a lot of nations (Burma, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos etc...) toward the Soviet Model as a direct result of being formerly colonial possessions of Britain and France. They aren't the only examples. The fact YOU point out that the rise of one extreme leads to rise of the other IS EXACTLY what I also just said, but you obviously missed in your excitement of trying to show boat.

You even endlessly miss the point that I do NOT support communism, I do NOT apologise for it and I do NOT think it is a credible model for any country to attempt to build.

It never arose from fascism, so what on earth are you talking about?

You said the following?


Communism also rose as a result OF colonialism, imperialism and fascism. So Nazism/Fascism led to the rise of communism in the first place.

Oh my god, how canm Communism arise from colonialism, when it arose through the soviet Union, who then expanded on expansion?

Communism arose in Asian territories,  through the spread of learning in the west. Pol Pot for example studied in France. So they arose from people taught Communism

And you end failing to condemn communism, which is the often problem found by the left

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:34 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

I never said communism only arose from Fascism, I also said it arose from Imperialism and Colonialism, which is absolutely true. Being former colonies pushed a lot of nations (Burma, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos etc...) toward the Soviet Model as a direct result of being formerly colonial possessions of Britain and France. They aren't the only examples. The fact YOU point out that the rise of one extreme leads to rise of the other IS EXACTLY what I also just said, but you obviously missed in your excitement of trying to show boat.

You even endlessly miss the point that I do NOT support communism, I do NOT apologise for it and I do NOT think it is a credible model for any country to attempt to build.

It never arose from fascism, so what on earth are you talking about?

You said the following?


Communism also rose as a result OF colonialism, imperialism and fascism. So Nazism/Fascism led to the rise of communism in the first place.

Oh my god, how canm Communism arise from colonialism, when it arose through the soviet Union, who then expanded on expansion?

Communism arose in Asian territories,  through the spread of learning in the west. Pol Pot for example studied in France. So they arose from people taught Communism

And you end failing to condemn communism, which is the often problem found by the left

I condemned communism in my first post of this thread, until you can at least acknowledge that this conversation is done.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:35 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

It never arose from fascism, so what on earth are you talking about?

You said the following?



Oh my god, how canm Communism arise from colonialism, when it arose through the soviet Union, who then expanded on expansion?

Communism arose in Asian territories,  through the spread of learning in the west. Pol Pot for example studied in France. So they arose from people taught Communism

And you end failing to condemn communism, which is the often problem found by the left

I condemned communism in my first post of this thread, until you can at least acknowledge that this conversation is done.

You condemned communism based in practice by people, not the ideology

So dont get all defensive, when I know exactly what you have said

Including thinking that Nazism brought about Communism, which was bonkers

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:40 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

It never arose from fascism, so what on earth are you talking about?

You said the following?



Oh my god, how canm Communism arise from colonialism, when it arose through the soviet Union, who then expanded on expansion?

Communism arose in Asian territories,  through the spread of learning in the west. Pol Pot for example studied in France. So they arose from people taught Communism

And you end failing to condemn communism, which is the often problem found by the left

I condemned communism in my first post of this thread, until you can at least acknowledge that this conversation is done.

You condemned communism based in practice by people, not the ideology

So dont get all defensive, when I know exactly what you have said

Including thinking that Nazism brought about Communism, which was bonkers

I said in my first post that communism is an unworkable political system and condemned Maoist communism as being awful (though that was in the other thread). Again, if your read thoroughly instead of picking on particular points, you'd avoid this needless back and forth.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:44 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

You condemned communism based in practice by people, not the ideology

So dont get all defensive, when I know exactly what you have said

Including thinking that Nazism brought about Communism, which was bonkers

I said in my first post that communism is an unworkable political system and condemned Maoist communism as being awful (though that was in the other thread). Again, if your read thoroughly instead of picking on particular points, you'd avoid this needless back and forth.

What a complete copout, as that is not condemning.

I would never condemn the NHS, but think is not workable the path its going and the principles of the NHS are sound

So stop being a copout, again I know exactly what you have said

So once again do you condemn the philosophy and ideology of Communism.

Yes or no?

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:47 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

You condemned communism based in practice by people, not the ideology

So dont get all defensive, when I know exactly what you have said

Including thinking that Nazism brought about Communism, which was bonkers

I said in my first post that communism is an unworkable political system and condemned Maoist communism as being awful (though that was in the other thread). Again, if your read thoroughly instead of picking on particular points, you'd avoid this needless back and forth.

What a complete copout, as that is not condemning.

I would never condemn the NHS, but think is not workable the path its going and the principles of the NHS are sound

So stop being a copout, again I know exactly what you have said

So once again do you condemn the philosophy and ideology of Communism.

Yes or no?

As in the communism preached by Marx in the Communist Manifesto? (not Marx's personal beliefs on other matters).

Then the answer is yes, I condemn it as unworkable.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:49 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

What a complete copout, as that is not condemning.

I would never condemn the NHS, but think is not workable the path its going and the principles of the NHS are sound

So stop being a copout, again I know exactly what you have said

So once again do you condemn the philosophy and ideology of Communism.

Yes or no?

As in the communism preached by Marx in the Communist Manifesto? (not Marx's personal beliefs on other matters).

Then the answer is yes, I condemn it as unworkable.

Unbelievable

You are now Tommy mark 2

So once again do you condemn the philosophy and ideology of Communism.

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:58 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

What a complete copout, as that is not condemning.

I would never condemn the NHS, but think is not workable the path its going and the principles of the NHS are sound

So stop being a copout, again I know exactly what you have said

So once again do you condemn the philosophy and ideology of Communism.

Yes or no?

As in the communism preached by Marx in the Communist Manifesto? (not Marx's personal beliefs on other matters).

Then the answer is yes, I condemn it as unworkable.

Unbelievable

You are now Tommy mark 2

So once again do you condemn the philosophy and ideology of Communism.

Seriously? I just answered your question. I won't let you dumb this down to a yes/no question. They is no direct line from communism to murdering millions, if that is what you're getting at. Whereas there is a direct line from Nazism to murdering millions.

But again, yes, I condemn communism, I already said what for.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:00 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

Unbelievable

You are now Tommy mark 2

So once again do you condemn the philosophy and ideology of Communism.

Seriously? I just answered your question. I won't let you dumb this down to a yes/no question. They is no direct line from communism to murdering millions, if that is what you're getting at. Whereas there is a direct line from Nazism to murdering millions.

But again, yes, I condemn communism, I already said what for.

You spoke about a manifesto

Well done, at last Tommy mark 2 finally condemns communism

You say there is no direct lne to murdering millions

Tell that to all the victims of Communism, in every single example

So again you are an apologist for communism

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:05 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

Unbelievable

You are now Tommy mark 2

So once again do you condemn the philosophy and ideology of Communism.

Seriously? I just answered your question. I won't let you dumb this down to a yes/no question. They is no direct line from communism to murdering millions, if that is what you're getting at. Whereas there is a direct line from Nazism to murdering millions.

But again, yes, I condemn communism, I already said what for.

You spoke about a manifesto

Well done, at last Tommt mark 2 finally condemns communism

You say there is no direct lne to murdering millions

Tell that to all the victims of Communism, in every single example

So again you are an apologist for communism

What should I tell them? Just because people died doesn't change facts.

Yes, Communist regimes murdered millions.
Yes, millions died under communism.

But the underlying ethos of communism is equality for all. You find ONE line in the Communist Manifesto (you won't, because you've never read it) that can be interpreted to advise murdering millions - just one line.

On the other hand, Hitler's writings point straight to the actions of the Holocaust. No question. Nazism meant mass murder. Communism had to be taken and twisted to get there.

The doctrine of communism as laid out by Marx is flawed, open to exploitation and completely unworkable by human society - but nowhere will you find incitements to murder millions.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:10 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

You spoke about a manifesto

Well done, at last Tommt mark 2 finally condemns communism

You say there is no direct lne to murdering millions

Tell that to all the victims of Communism, in every single example

So again you are an apologist for communism

What should I tell them? Just because people died doesn't change facts.

Yes, Communist regimes murdered millions.
Yes, millions died under communism.

But the underlying ethos of communism is equality for all. You find ONE line in the Communist Manifesto (you won't, because you've never read it) that can be interpreted to advise murdering millions - just one line.

On the other hand, Hitler's writings point straight to the actions of the Holocaust. No question. Nazism meant mass murder. Communism had to be taken and twisted to get there.

The doctrine of communism as laid out by Marx is flawed, open to exploitation and completely unworkable by human society - but nowhere will you find incitements to murder millions.

75 year anniversary of the freeing of Leningrad. 3489511464

Actually the original Nazi philosophy never was the extermination of the Jews, that was the brain child of Hitler, and his cronies.

So Nazism did not mean mass murder, before Hitler came along

The doctrine of Marx, who was a vlie antisemite is extremism, always leading to being implimented by Totaliarianism, leading to many dying

Just as nazism would lead to implimented by Totaliarianism, leading to many dying, it brought about again

You really cannot grasp it and why again left continually defend extreme and poor Far leftist thinking

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:16 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

You spoke about a manifesto

Well done, at last Tommt mark 2 finally condemns communism

You say there is no direct lne to murdering millions

Tell that to all the victims of Communism, in every single example

So again you are an apologist for communism

What should I tell them? Just because people died doesn't change facts.

Yes, Communist regimes murdered millions.
Yes, millions died under communism.

But the underlying ethos of communism is equality for all. You find ONE line in the Communist Manifesto (you won't, because you've never read it) that can be interpreted to advise murdering millions - just one line.

On the other hand, Hitler's writings point straight to the actions of the Holocaust. No question. Nazism meant mass murder. Communism had to be taken and twisted to get there.

The doctrine of communism as laid out by Marx is flawed, open to exploitation and completely unworkable by human society - but nowhere will you find incitements to murder millions.

75 year anniversary of the freeing of Leningrad. 3489511464

Actually the original Nazi philosophy never was the extermination of the Jews, that was the brain child of Hitler, and his cronies.

So Nazism did not mean mass murder, before Hitler came along

The doctrine of Marx, who was a vlie antisemite is extremism, always leading to being implimented by Totaliarianism, leading to many dying

Just as nazism would lead to implimented by Totaliarianism, leading to many dying, it brought about again

You really cannot grasp it and why again left continually defend extreme and poor Far leftist thinking

So, no actual evidence of a direct line from communism to the murder of millions then, just words. No problem, I expected little so nothing is not far off Laughing

I condemn communism because I know it's failings as a philosophy and how badly it was put into practice. You just condemn it because you hate the Left. Pathetic.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:20 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

75 year anniversary of the freeing of Leningrad. 3489511464

Actually the original Nazi philosophy never was the extermination of the Jews, that was the brain child of Hitler, and his cronies.

So Nazism did not mean mass murder, before Hitler came along

The doctrine of Marx, who was a vlie antisemite is extremism, always leading to being implimented by Totaliarianism, leading to many dying

Just as nazism would lead to implimented by Totaliarianism, leading to many dying, it brought about again

You really cannot grasp it and why again left continually defend extreme and poor Far leftist thinking

So, no actual evidence of a direct line from communism to the murder of millions then, just words. No problem, I expected little so nothing is not far off Laughing

I condemn communism because I know it's failings as a philosophy and how badly it was put into practice. You just condemn it because you hate the Left. Pathetic.

There is plenty, by enforcing the entire people to a system, against their will

That is about as hateful and extreme as it gets

I dont hate the left, again you have to resort to being an idiot and lie. I am even hold views, from the left, based on social principles

So stop being a numpty, I am totoally against Far left extremist politics

Laughing

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:22 am

As to Labour MP's Eilzel


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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:24 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

75 year anniversary of the freeing of Leningrad. 3489511464

Actually the original Nazi philosophy never was the extermination of the Jews, that was the brain child of Hitler, and his cronies.

So Nazism did not mean mass murder, before Hitler came along

The doctrine of Marx, who was a vlie antisemite is extremism, always leading to being implimented by Totaliarianism, leading to many dying

Just as nazism would lead to implimented by Totaliarianism, leading to many dying, it brought about again

You really cannot grasp it and why again left continually defend extreme and poor Far leftist thinking

So, no actual evidence of a direct line from communism to the murder of millions then, just words. No problem, I expected little so nothing is not far off Laughing

I condemn communism because I know it's failings as a philosophy and how badly it was put into practice. You just condemn it because you hate the Left. Pathetic.

There is plenty, by enforcing the entire people to a system, against their will

That is about as hateful and extreme as it gets

I dont hate the left, again you have to resort to being an idiot and lie. I am even hold views, from the left, based on social principles

So stop being a numpty, I am totoally against Far left extremist politics

Laughing

So no straight line from communism to murder then. Cool.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:25 am


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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:27 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

There is plenty, by enforcing the entire people to a system, against their will

That is about as hateful and extreme as it gets

I dont hate the left, again you have to resort to being an idiot and lie. I am even hold views, from the left, based on social principles

So stop being a numpty, I am totoally against Far left extremist politics

Laughing

So no straight line from communism to murder then. Cool.

Is there a line in Nazi Philosophy straight to murder?

No there isnt, but both Communism and nazism lead to many being murdered and you cannot understand why

Communism has a hate of class and the rich and guess what has happened to the rich and middle class in these systems Eilzel?

Nazisdm spoke about hate against many groups and then in the end many were murdered based off this hate in pratice.


Last edited by Thor on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:28 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

What should I tell them? Just because people died doesn't change facts.

Yes, Communist regimes murdered millions.
Yes, millions died under communism.

But the underlying ethos of communism is equality for all. You find ONE line in the Communist Manifesto (you won't, because you've never read it) that can be interpreted to advise murdering millions - just one line.

On the other hand, Hitler's writings point straight to the actions of the Holocaust. No question. Nazism meant mass murder. Communism had to be taken and twisted to get there.

The doctrine of communism as laid out by Marx is flawed, open to exploitation and completely unworkable by human society - but nowhere will you find incitements to murder millions.

75 year anniversary of the freeing of Leningrad. 3489511464

Actually the original Nazi philosophy never was the extermination of the Jews, that was the brain child of Hitler, and his cronies.

So Nazism did not mean mass murder, before Hitler came along

The doctrine of Marx, who was a vlie antisemite is extremism, always leading to being implimented by Totaliarianism, leading to many dying

Just as nazism would lead to implimented by Totaliarianism, leading to many dying, it brought about again

You really cannot grasp it and why again left continually defend extreme and poor Far leftist thinking

I agree that Nazism didn't necessarily mean mass murder at first. However, what do you mean when you say "before Hitler came along"? He was leader of the party within a year of it being formed.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:30 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

75 year anniversary of the freeing of Leningrad. 3489511464

Actually the original Nazi philosophy never was the extermination of the Jews, that was the brain child of Hitler, and his cronies.

So Nazism did not mean mass murder, before Hitler came along

The doctrine of Marx, who was a vlie antisemite is extremism, always leading to being implimented by Totaliarianism, leading to many dying

Just as nazism would lead to implimented by Totaliarianism, leading to many dying, it brought about again

You really cannot grasp it and why again left continually defend extreme and poor Far leftist thinking

I agree that Nazism didn't necessarily mean mass murder at first. However, what do you mean when you say  "before Hitler came along"? He was leader of the party within a year of it being formed.

He did not set up the party or philsophy of Nazism, Rags. He certainly expanded on Nazism.

Have a read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Origins

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:32 am

Thor wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I agree that Nazism didn't necessarily mean mass murder at first. However, what do you mean when you say  "before Hitler came along"? He was leader of the party within a year of it being formed.

He did not set up the party or philsophy of Nazism, Rags. He certainly expanded on Nazism.

Have a read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Origins

I know he didn't, but it didn't exist for very long before he took control of it.

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:34 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

There is plenty, by enforcing the entire people to a system, against their will

That is about as hateful and extreme as it gets

I dont hate the left, again you have to resort to being an idiot and lie. I am even hold views, from the left, based on social principles

So stop being a numpty, I am totoally against Far left extremist politics

Laughing

So no straight line from communism to murder then. Cool.

Is there a line in Nazi Philosophy straight to murder?

No there isnt, but both Communism and nazism lead to many being murder and you cannot understand why


From the writing of Hitler there is. You don't need me to cite passages from there.

However, even a quick look at the foundings of Nazism, a direct line is all too easy to see:

"Völkisch nationalism denounced soulless materialism, individualism and secularised urban industrial society, while advocating a "superior" society based on ethnic German "folk" culture and German "blood".[59] It denounced foreigners and foreign ideas and declared that Jews, Freemasons and others were "traitors to the nation" and unworthy of inclusion."

"Using the stab-in-the-back myth, the Nazis accused Jews—and other populations who it considered non-German—of possessing extra-national loyalties, thereby exacerbating German antisemitism about the Judenfrage (the Jewish Question), the far-right political canard which was popular when the ethnic Völkisch movement and its politics of Romantic nationalism for establishing a Großdeutschland was strong."

"Nazism viewed what it called the Aryan race as the master race of the world—a race that was superior to all other races.[128] It viewed Aryans as being in racial conflict with a mixed race people, the Jews, whom the Nazis identified as a dangerous enemy of the Aryans."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_ref-constructing_60-0

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:35 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

He did not set up the party or philsophy of Nazism, Rags. He certainly expanded on Nazism.

Have a read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Origins

I know he didn't, but it didn't exist for very long before he took control of it.

I understand that but the philosophy that made up Nazism had been around for some time

For example you had the Pan German League and others that advocated Lebensraum (living space)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-German_League

All culminating in Nazism

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:37 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

Is there a line in Nazi Philosophy straight to murder?

No there isnt, but both Communism and nazism lead to many being murder and you cannot understand why


From the writing of Hitler there is. You don't need me to cite passages from there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_ref-constructing_60-0

What did I say?

On Nazism before Hitler came along

Seriously go and run and play, if you are going to have and act with the hump

So if you said the philosopgy of Hitler, I would agree with you

Hence how you contin ue to conflate two things

Doh

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:40 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

Is there a line in Nazi Philosophy straight to murder?

No there isnt, but both Communism and nazism lead to many being murder and you cannot understand why


From the writing of Hitler there is. You don't need me to cite passages from there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_ref-constructing_60-0

What did I say?

On Nazism before Hitler came along

Seriously go and run and play, if you are going to have and act with the hump

So if you said the philosopgy of Hitler, I would agree with you

Hence how you contin ue to conflate two things

Doh

Read the quotes FFS, they aren't from Hitler. They are about the founding ideology of Nazism, starting from the 1800s:

However, even a quick look at the foundings of Nazism, a direct line is all too easy to see:

"Völkisch nationalism denounced soulless materialism, individualism and secularised urban industrial society, while advocating a "superior" society based on ethnic German "folk" culture and German "blood".[59] It denounced foreigners and foreign ideas and declared that Jews, Freemasons and others were "traitors to the nation" and unworthy of inclusion."

"Using the stab-in-the-back myth, the Nazis accused Jews—and other populations who it considered non-German—of possessing extra-national loyalties, thereby exacerbating German antisemitism about the Judenfrage (the Jewish Question), the far-right political canard which was popular when the ethnic Völkisch movement and its politics of Romantic nationalism for establishing a Großdeutschland was strong."

"Nazism viewed what it called the Aryan race as the master race of the world—a race that was superior to all other races.[128] It viewed Aryans as being in racial conflict with a mixed race people, the Jews, whom the Nazis identified as a dangerous enemy of the Aryans."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_ref-constructing_60-0

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:45 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

What did I say?

On Nazism before Hitler came along

Seriously go and run and play, if you are going to have and act with the hump

So if you said the philosopgy of Hitler, I would agree with you

Hence how you contin ue to conflate two things

Doh

Read the quotes FFS, they aren't from Hitler. They are about the founding ideology of Nazism, starting from the 1800s:

However, even a quick look at the foundings of Nazism, a direct line is all too easy to see:

"Völkisch nationalism denounced soulless materialism, individualism and secularised urban industrial society, while advocating a "superior" society based on ethnic German "folk" culture and German "blood".[59] It denounced foreigners and foreign ideas and declared that Jews, Freemasons and others were "traitors to the nation" and unworthy of inclusion."

"Using the stab-in-the-back myth, the Nazis accused Jews—and other populations who it considered non-German—of possessing extra-national loyalties, thereby exacerbating German antisemitism about the Judenfrage (the Jewish Question), the far-right political canard which was popular when the ethnic Völkisch movement and its politics of Romantic nationalism for establishing a Großdeutschland was strong."

"Nazism viewed what it called the Aryan race as the master race of the world—a race that was superior to all other races.[128] It viewed Aryans as being in racial conflict with a mixed race people, the Jews, whom the Nazis identified as a dangerous enemy of the Aryans."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_ref-constructing_60-0

I have looked, how does the above lead to murder?

The Nazis for example looked to settle the Jews in other countries like Madagascar for example, before the final solution was implimented

However I think hateful views, always lead to violence and murder. Hence why such hateful views led to the Holocaust and the mass murder of millions under communism

Do you agree?

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:48 am

Oh and as to your beloved Marx

https://www.philosophersmag.com/opinion/30-karl-marx-s-radical-antisemitism

https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/05/10/ugly-racism-karl-marx/

Hence its no wonder his views led to violence and ethnic cleansing in the Soviet Union by Stalin

Still going to stand by your deity Marx, Eilzel?

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:49 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

What did I say?

On Nazism before Hitler came along

Seriously go and run and play, if you are going to have and act with the hump

So if you said the philosopgy of Hitler, I would agree with you

Hence how you contin ue to conflate two things

Doh

Read the quotes FFS, they aren't from Hitler. They are about the founding ideology of Nazism, starting from the 1800s:

However, even a quick look at the foundings of Nazism, a direct line is all too easy to see:

"Völkisch nationalism denounced soulless materialism, individualism and secularised urban industrial society, while advocating a "superior" society based on ethnic German "folk" culture and German "blood".[59] It denounced foreigners and foreign ideas and declared that Jews, Freemasons and others were "traitors to the nation" and unworthy of inclusion."

"Using the stab-in-the-back myth, the Nazis accused Jews—and other populations who it considered non-German—of possessing extra-national loyalties, thereby exacerbating German antisemitism about the Judenfrage (the Jewish Question), the far-right political canard which was popular when the ethnic Völkisch movement and its politics of Romantic nationalism for establishing a Großdeutschland was strong."

"Nazism viewed what it called the Aryan race as the master race of the world—a race that was superior to all other races.[128] It viewed Aryans as being in racial conflict with a mixed race people, the Jews, whom the Nazis identified as a dangerous enemy of the Aryans."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_ref-constructing_60-0

I have looked, how does the above lead to murder?

The Nazis for example looked to settle the Jews in other countries like Madagascar for example

However I think hateful views, always lead to violence and murder

Do you agree?


Superior, based on blood.
Jews and others = traitor to the nation.
Extra-national loyalties exasperating anti-Anti-semitism.
Jews a dangerous enemy.


There IS an easy line here from ideology to murder. Yes, the original concept might have been expulsion, but it isn't a big move from expulsion to genocide.

There is NO similar line drawn from the Communist literature of Marx and Engels to the murders of the Khmer Rouge and Red Guards.

I think hateful views often lead to violence and murder, but no necessarily always.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:50 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

I have looked, how does the above lead to murder?

The Nazis for example looked to settle the Jews in other countries like Madagascar for example

However I think hateful views, always lead to violence and murder

Do you agree?


Superior, based on blood.
Jews and others = traitor to the nation.
Extra-national loyalties exasperating anti-Anti-semitism.
Jews a dangerous enemy.


There IS an easy line here from ideology to murder. Yes, the original concept might have been expulsion, but it isn't a big move from expulsion to genocide.

There is NO similar line drawn from the Communist literature of Marx and Engels to the murders of the Khmer Rouge and Red Guards.

I think hateful views often lead to violence and murder, but no necessarily always.

https://www.philosophersmag.com/opinion/30-karl-marx-s-radical-antisemitism

https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/05/10/ugly-racism-karl-marx/

Hence its no wonder his views led to violence and ethnic cleansing in the Soviet Union by Stalin

Still going to stand by your deity Marx, Eilzel?

Opps

You see its not just the Communist part that many supporters of Marxs follow

Like I said his teachings are of hate and also why people have been murdered within Communist systems

Oh dear, dont you look a wally

Laughing

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:53 am

Thor wrote:Oh and as to your beloved Marx

https://www.philosophersmag.com/opinion/30-karl-marx-s-radical-antisemitism

https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/05/10/ugly-racism-karl-marx/

Hence its no wonder his views led to violence and ethnic cleansing in the Soviet Union by Stalin

Still going to stand by your deity Marx, Eilzel?

You're missing the point again.

The Communist Manifesto is THE doctrine of communism.

The letter of Marx and Engels says a lot about those men at the time (and you would find similar views from many in that era, it wasn't uncommon), but are of no concern where the philosophy of communism is concerned.

There is no example in Communist literature from its founders that leads to mass murder. There just isn't.

As seen above, there is a link from Nazism.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:55 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:Oh and as to your beloved Marx

https://www.philosophersmag.com/opinion/30-karl-marx-s-radical-antisemitism

https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/05/10/ugly-racism-karl-marx/

Hence its no wonder his views led to violence and ethnic cleansing in the Soviet Union by Stalin

Still going to stand by your deity Marx, Eilzel?

You're missing the point again.

The Communist Manifesto is THE doctrine of communism.

The letter of Marx and Engels says a lot about those men at the time (and you would find similar views from many in that era, it wasn't uncommon), but are of no concern where the philosophy of communism is concerned.

There is no example in Communist literature from its founders that leads to mass murder. There just isn't.

As seen above, there is a link from Nazism.

See now you make excuses for people of the time

Not missing any point because its hatest extremist view, that looks to eraicate any other opposing views. Its why no religion has been allowed under communism for example, it teaches a class hate against the better off

Its why and what led to countless millions being murdered and still suffering to this day

You just made yourself look a fucking joke mate and you are the worst apologist for Far left extremism in Communism, which is as vile as it comes. As it seeks to enforce its views, which has happened every single time


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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:56 am

Thor wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

I have looked, how does the above lead to murder?

The Nazis for example looked to settle the Jews in other countries like Madagascar for example

However I think hateful views, always lead to violence and murder

Do you agree?


Superior, based on blood.
Jews and others = traitor to the nation.
Extra-national loyalties exasperating anti-Anti-semitism.
Jews a dangerous enemy.


There IS an easy line here from ideology to murder. Yes, the original concept might have been expulsion, but it isn't a big move from expulsion to genocide.

There is NO similar line drawn from the Communist literature of Marx and Engels to the murders of the Khmer Rouge and Red Guards.

I think hateful views often lead to violence and murder, but no necessarily always.

https://www.philosophersmag.com/opinion/30-karl-marx-s-radical-antisemitism

https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/05/10/ugly-racism-karl-marx/

Hence its no wonder his views led to violence and ethnic cleansing in the Soviet Union by Stalin

Still going to stand by your deity Marx, Eilzel?

Opps

You see its not just the Communist part that many supporters of Marxs follow

Like I said his teachings are of hate and also why people have been murdered within Communist systems

Oh dear, dont you look a wally

Laughing

FFS didge, you shame yourself resorting to petty insults Rolling Eyes

So, now communists are bad because they followed Marx's 'other views'.

So so far you have blamed the murder of communist regimes on the a) being nationalist too, b) following Marx's anti-Semitism and c) being totalitarian.

I'm inclined to agree with ALL your points Smile

But I'm still failing to see a straight line from Communist literature to the murders of millions that does not first have to be a) nationalistic, b) following anti-Semitic views not found in Communist literature or c) the actions of a totalitarian regime Laughing

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Post by Eilzel on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:57 am

And despite all my arguments above, I STILL condemn communism as a failed ideology.

You just can't let that be it, can you Laughing

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:59 am

Eilzel wrote:
Thor wrote:

I have looked, how does the above lead to murder?

The Nazis for example looked to settle the Jews in other countries like Madagascar for example

However I think hateful views, always lead to violence and murder

Do you agree?


Superior, based on blood.
Jews and others = traitor to the nation.
Extra-national loyalties exasperating anti-Anti-semitism.
Jews a dangerous enemy.


There IS an easy line here from ideology to murder. Yes, the original concept might have been expulsion, but it isn't a big move from expulsion to genocide.

There is NO similar line drawn from the Communist literature of Marx and Engels to the murders of the Khmer Rouge and Red Guards.

I think hateful views often lead to violence and murder, but no necessarily always.

I think it is quite a big move really. Expelling people is very different to rounding them up and killing them in a systematic manner. Of course expelling people from their homeland is a rotten thing to do, but at least they're still alive.

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