Revealed: the stark evidence of everyday racial bias in Britain

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Post by eddie on Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:46 pm

“Stereotyping is not just something that happens, stereotyping is something that is felt, and it feels like sheer terror, confusion and shame.”

The extent of racial bias faced by black, Asian and minority ethnic citizens in 21st-century Britain has been laid bare in an unprecedented study showing a gulf in how people of different ethnicities are treated in their daily lives.

A survey for the Guardian of 1,000 people from minority ethnic backgrounds found they were consistently more likely to have faced negative everyday experiences – all frequently associated with racism – than white people in a comparison poll.

The survey found that 43% of those from a minority ethnic background had been overlooked for a work promotion in a way that felt unfair in the last five years – more than twice the proportion of white people (18%) who reported the same experience.

The results show that ethnic minorities are three times as likely to have been thrown out of or denied entrance to a restaurant, bar or club in the last five years, and that more than two-thirds believe Britain has a problem with racism.

The ICM poll, commissioned to launch a week-long investigation into bias in Britain, focuses on everyday experiences of prejudice that could be a result of unconscious bias – quick decisions conditioned by our backgrounds, cultural environment and personal experiences.

It is believed to be the first major piece of UK public polling to focus on ethnic minorities’ experiences of unconscious bias, and comes amid wider concerns about a shortage of research capturing the views of minority groups.


• 38% of people from ethnic minorities said they had been wrongly suspected of shoplifting in the last five years, compared with 14% of white people, with black people and women in particular more likely to be wrongly suspected.

• Minorities were more than twice as likely to have encountered abuse or rudeness from a stranger in the last week.

• 53% of people from a minority background believed they had been treated differently because of their hair, clothes or appearance, compared with 29% of white people.


More on link: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/02/revealed-the-stark-evidence-of-everyday-racial-bias-in-britain

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Post by phildidge on Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:52 pm

Hmmm what have I said before about stereotypes Eddie to you?

In how wrong and poor they are, based on group identity? (and yes I can be guilty of this when I make views on the left)

As people are individually responsible for the acts and beliefs they follow.

Hence what is needed is to challenge poor beliefs and never shy away from this

I certainly can understand how people fall prey to such poor sterotypes, because they simple never look at the bigger picture of why and how people can fall into crime. They simple hold a poor perceived view on people based on invented unbiological labels.

Its time we removed those unscientific labels

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Post by eddie on Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:03 pm

I totally agree. I was actually surprised when I came across this article. I didn’t realise that the UK still had such racial problems.

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Post by phildidge on Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:19 pm

eddie wrote:I totally agree.  I was actually surprised when I came across this article. I didn’t realise that the UK still had such racial problems.


Its something that I believe certainly requires further investigations and studies Eddie

But then some want to deny inclusive teaching within schools.

Maybe this is the problem why such issues continue to exist?

Of course I would never put it down to simple ignorance, as there is many factors here again, but I do find it interesting whether anyone would be against teaching kids to be inclusive?

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:34 pm

Sadly, I have to say that this situation is still preferable to the U.S., where it seems like more and more people are comfortable being openly and even proudly racist.

I was reading the other day that in several documented issues of racial abuse in America, the attackers have simply yelled "Trump!" at some point. As though the very name is a symbol of racial oppression.

I hate the guy but I bet he would never have wanted that.

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Post by phildidge on Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:43 pm

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:Sadly, I have to say that this situation is still preferable to the U.S., where it seems like more and more people are comfortable being openly and even proudly racist.

I was reading the other day that in several documented issues of racial abuse in America, the attackers have simply yelled "Trump!" at some point. As though the very name is a symbol of racial oppression.

I hate the guy but I bet he would never have wanted that.


But mate, hate feeds and fuels on hate. Its how the world has constantly become so divided some many times before. Again I am guilty of sterotyping the left. When in reality you prove to me those sterotypes are wrong and I should take the view based off this. In that no matter the political of religious beliefs of people. We all are different.

If you want to fight this hate, then hate is never the answer. It simples seperates people into tribes, based on identity politics. Its more about bridging divides that we have and only the people living their lives can accomplish this. Not politicians.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:06 pm

eddie wrote:“Stereotyping is not just something that happens, stereotyping is something that is felt, and it feels like sheer terror, confusion and shame.”

The extent of racial bias faced by black, Asian and minority ethnic citizens in 21st-century Britain has been laid bare in an unprecedented study showing a gulf in how people of different ethnicities are treated in their daily lives.

A survey for the Guardian of 1,000 people from minority ethnic backgrounds found they were consistently more likely to have faced negative everyday experiences – all frequently associated with racism – than white people in a comparison poll.

The survey found that 43% of those from a minority ethnic background had been overlooked for a work promotion in a way that felt unfair in the last five years – more than twice the proportion of white people (18%) who reported the same experience.

The results show that ethnic minorities are three times as likely to have been thrown out of or denied entrance to a restaurant, bar or club in the last five years, and that more than two-thirds believe Britain has a problem with racism.

The ICM poll, commissioned to launch a week-long investigation into bias in Britain, focuses on everyday experiences of prejudice that could be a result of unconscious bias – quick decisions conditioned by our backgrounds, cultural environment and personal experiences.

It is believed to be the first major piece of UK public polling to focus on ethnic minorities’ experiences of unconscious bias, and comes amid wider concerns about a shortage of research capturing the views of minority groups.


• 38% of people from ethnic minorities said they had been wrongly suspected of shoplifting in the last five years, compared with 14% of white people, with black people and women in particular more likely to be wrongly suspected.

• Minorities were more than twice as likely to have encountered abuse or rudeness from a stranger in the last week.

• 53% of people from a minority background believed they had been treated differently because of their hair, clothes or appearance, compared with 29% of white people.


More on link: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/02/revealed-the-stark-evidence-of-everyday-racial-bias-in-britain


What a complete load of spurious nonsense!



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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:10 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
eddie wrote:“Stereotyping is not just something that happens, stereotyping is something that is felt, and it feels like sheer terror, confusion and shame.”

The extent of racial bias faced by black, Asian and minority ethnic citizens in 21st-century Britain has been laid bare in an unprecedented study showing a gulf in how people of different ethnicities are treated in their daily lives.

A survey for the Guardian of 1,000 people from minority ethnic backgrounds found they were consistently more likely to have faced negative everyday experiences – all frequently associated with racism – than white people in a comparison poll.

The survey found that 43% of those from a minority ethnic background had been overlooked for a work promotion in a way that felt unfair in the last five years – more than twice the proportion of white people (18%) who reported the same experience.

The results show that ethnic minorities are three times as likely to have been thrown out of or denied entrance to a restaurant, bar or club in the last five years, and that more than two-thirds believe Britain has a problem with racism.

The ICM poll, commissioned to launch a week-long investigation into bias in Britain, focuses on everyday experiences of prejudice that could be a result of unconscious bias – quick decisions conditioned by our backgrounds, cultural environment and personal experiences.

It is believed to be the first major piece of UK public polling to focus on ethnic minorities’ experiences of unconscious bias, and comes amid wider concerns about a shortage of research capturing the views of minority groups.


• 38% of people from ethnic minorities said they had been wrongly suspected of shoplifting in the last five years, compared with 14% of white people, with black people and women in particular more likely to be wrongly suspected.

• Minorities were more than twice as likely to have encountered abuse or rudeness from a stranger in the last week.

• 53% of people from a minority background believed they had been treated differently because of their hair, clothes or appearance, compared with 29% of white people.


More on link: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/02/revealed-the-stark-evidence-of-everyday-racial-bias-in-britain


What a complete load of spurious nonsense!



I suppose you have better information you're just looking for at the moment and are getting ready to share, otherwise you wouldn't have called this report "spurious nonsense" because you'd have no way of knowing whether it was or wasn't.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:12 pm

Thor wrote:
>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:Sadly, I have to say that this situation is still preferable to the U.S., where it seems like more and more people are comfortable being openly and even proudly racist.

I was reading the other day that in several documented issues of racial abuse in America, the attackers have simply yelled "Trump!" at some point. As though the very name is a symbol of racial oppression.

I hate the guy but I bet he would never have wanted that.


But mate, hate feeds and fuels on hate. Its how the world has constantly become so divided some many times before. Again I am guilty of sterotyping the left. When in reality you prove to me those sterotypes are wrong and I should take the view based off this. In that no matter the political of religious beliefs of people. We all are different.

If you want to fight this hate, then hate is never the answer. It simples seperates people into tribes, based on identity politics. Its more about bridging divides that we have and only the people living their lives can accomplish this. Not politicians.

Well, you in turn have made me see the right in a totally different way. Good thing as well, because most of my exposure to the right has been to people who went from insisting we needed to invade Iraq to wearing MAGA hats and said it was all being done for Jesus' sake.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:46 pm

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


What a complete load of spurious nonsense!



I suppose you have better information you're just looking for at the moment and are getting ready to share, otherwise you wouldn't have called this report "spurious nonsense" because you'd have no way of knowing whether it was or wasn't.


Well... firstly it is a very small poll group... secondly it is claimed that it is compared to a similar poll of 'white people' but no explanation of course or details...


Then... the first example of feelings of being unfairly overlooked for promotion... this is purely subjective... completely unsubstantiated... and therefore meaningless...


Then the claim around being 3 times more likely to be refused entry to/or removed from a restaurant/bar/club... again this is a very wide range of possible scenarios and circumstances to be considered... and therefore completely incomparable due to lack of details...


In fact... the same goes for all the claims... all unsubstantiated and therefore spurious...!!!



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Post by eddie on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:51 pm

So how many people need to be polled before you’ll believe a poll?

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Post by phildidge on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:58 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:

I suppose you have better information you're just looking for at the moment and are getting ready to share, otherwise you wouldn't have called this report "spurious nonsense" because you'd have no way of knowing whether it was or wasn't.


Well... firstly it is a very small poll group... secondly it is claimed that it is compared to a similar poll of 'white people' but no explanation of course or details...


Then... the first example of feelings of being unfairly overlooked for promotion... this is purely subjective... completely unsubstantiated... and therefore meaningless...


Then the claim around being 3 times more likely to be refused entry to/or removed from a restaurant/bar/club... again this is a very wide range of possible scenarios and circumstances to be considered... and therefore completely incomparable due to lack of details...


In fact... the same goes for all the claims... all unsubstantiated and therefore spurious...!!!




Well there are facts here on this.

Do you accept that there are facts based on this study?

No matter when you claim based off a small  pool

So lets start with this fact that is inherantly true and known to be based on a subconcious racial bias people have.

38% of people from ethnic minorities said they had been wrongly suspected of shoplifting in the last five years, compared with 14% of white people, with black people and women in particular more likely to be wrongly suspected.


This can be backed up with data

I would say based on people like yourself Tommy, this is very much factually correct

As to views held by people. Explain why whites feel less of a problem with discrimination then?

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:01 am

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:
Thor wrote:


But mate, hate feeds and fuels on hate. Its how the world has constantly become so divided some many times before. Again I am guilty of sterotyping the left. When in reality you prove to me those sterotypes are wrong and I should take the view based off this. In that no matter the political of religious beliefs of people. We all are different.

If you want to fight this hate, then hate is never the answer. It simples seperates people into tribes, based on identity politics. Its more about bridging divides that we have and only the people living their lives can accomplish this. Not politicians.

Well, you in turn have made me see the right in a totally different way. Good thing as well, because most of my exposure to the right has been to people who went from insisting we needed to invade Iraq to wearing MAGA hats and said it was all being done for Jesus' sake.

Thanks mate

Well I would suggest, we can then allow and show to people, how two people at cross purposes economically, yet share socially similar views, can meet in the middle on issues. It is thus down to us to show how people can build bridges, whilst at the same time disagree.

I think we would both agree to put aside differences for the greater good of people


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Post by eddie on Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:16 am

eddie wrote:So how many people need to be polled before you’ll believe a poll?

The answer to the question requires a figure.

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Post by veya_victaous on Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:07 am

This is part of the problem for ethnic minorities

it only one takes one racist arsehole to insult a dozen plus people a day.
if you have a broader population with even 10% racist arseholes
the Individual ethnic person does end up running into multiple a day and so do experience it far more frequently than non-minorities would think, even though the majority of people are not racist arseholes.

This is why it is good to speak up when someone is being a racist cunt, even if just to offer support to victim and assure them that it just that person who is the prick not all the ethnic majority.

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Post by 'Wolfie on Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:17 am

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


What a complete load of spurious nonsense!



I suppose you have better information you're just looking for at the moment and are getting ready to share, otherwise you wouldn't have called this report "spurious nonsense" because you'd have no way of knowing whether it was or wasn't.

Basketball

Anything that clashes with Tommy's narrow and closeted view of the world is likely to be dismissed offhand as "spurious nonsense".

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Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:54 am

Thor wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


Well... firstly it is a very small poll group... secondly it is claimed that it is compared to a similar poll of 'white people' but no explanation of course or details...


Then... the first example of feelings of being unfairly overlooked for promotion... this is purely subjective... completely unsubstantiated... and therefore meaningless...


Then the claim around being 3 times more likely to be refused entry to/or removed from a restaurant/bar/club... again this is a very wide range of possible scenarios and circumstances to be considered... and therefore completely incomparable due to lack of details...


In fact... the same goes for all the claims... all unsubstantiated and therefore spurious...!!!




Well there are facts here on this.

Do you accept that there are facts based on this study?

No matter when you claim based off a small  pool

So lets start with this fact that is inherantly true and known to be based on a subconcious racial bias people have.

38% of people from ethnic minorities said they had been wrongly suspected of shoplifting in the last five years, compared with 14% of white people, with black people and women in particular more likely to be wrongly suspected.


This can be backed up with data

I would say based on people like yourself Tommy, this is very much factually correct

As to views held by people. Explain why whites feel less of a problem with discrimination then?


Show me the details of the two so called comparable polls... show me the raw data of each... and the methodology behind the collection of the data for each, and the demographics of each poll group regarding age/gender/social groupings/employment status/area/crime level of each area/previous convictions of those polled... etc...!?



The article claims two separate polls that are comparable... show me the details of each of the two polls and the evidence that they are in any way comparable...!!!???



If you can't show the evidence to back up the claim, then the whole claim is completely unsubstantiated... and if the whole claim is completely unsubstantiated, then the whole claim is spurious nonsense...!!!



Either show the evidence that purports to back up these claims...!?


Or admit that the claims are unsubstantiated and therefore spurious nonsense...!?


lol!

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Post by Andy on Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:34 am

The stark evidence is that Monk hates blacks for the colour of the skin they were born with.
He supports the Ayrian race.
Monk is a man born out of time.
He wants a return to the 1930's where Viscount Rothsmere egged on the fascist blackshirts.

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:56 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Thor wrote:


Well there are facts here on this.

Do you accept that there are facts based on this study?

No matter when you claim based off a small  pool

So lets start with this fact that is inherantly true and known to be based on a subconcious racial bias people have.

38% of people from ethnic minorities said they had been wrongly suspected of shoplifting in the last five years, compared with 14% of white people, with black people and women in particular more likely to be wrongly suspected.


This can be backed up with data

I would say based on people like yourself Tommy, this is very much factually correct

As to views held by people. Explain why whites feel less of a problem with discrimination then?

Either show the evidence that purports to back up these claims...!?




https://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/

You can download the details from the above and also find more details on the actual study

Now you want evidence to support the Poll result on wrongfully being suspected of a crime?

No problem

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest

This proves many are disproportionately suspected of crimes. Which completely correlates with the Polls

Opps

Now answer my questions you avoided

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:46 am

It looks like this poll is based on belief. One person's definition of someone being rude to them might be completely different to another person's definition.

Perhaps those from an ethnic minority background are more likely to apply for promotion, or perhaps white people don't take it so personally if they don't get promoted.

Re shoplifting, I think groups of young people of any colour are more likely to be suspected than anyone else. That is a bit unfair as a fair few shoplifters are actually quite old. However, that applies to all young people who hang around in groups.

We don't know why any of the people polled were thrown out of clubs and restaurants, so that percentage is meaningless.

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:57 am

Raggamuffin wrote:It looks like this poll is based on belief. One person's definition of someone being rude to them might be completely different to another person's definition.


As usual you get things wrong.

How is an experince someone goes through now a belief?

If someone is wrongfully stopped by the police, for no wrong they did, a belief or an experince through the lens of perception here?

So its basically irrelevant to say whether younger people get stopped, when this shows from the links a huge disparity on race. It means you are avoiding the massive elephant in the room here

So the poll is more than anything based on experince that people have

Its also based on perceptions people have through experince, which is again not a belief

You do understand the difference between perceptions and belief that stem from the mind?

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:24 am

Now to me the results of such a poll, are actually a no brainer, as there is many forms of cognitive bias that people form over time. Where in this case people will form a confirmation bias. Which has people base this bias, on their beliefs. So if someone thinks its black people that commit crimes, their belief will sway their subconscious bias. To view then basically all black people are suspect criminals. The belief is what is driving this cognitive bias that they hold.

Which is what the study is about, where also some will hold beliefs who were polled, that creates a cognitive bias within them. Like i say though most of the questions deal with experince and through this perception people have through incidents they have dealt with.

Its like for example Tommy here, who holds a belief cognitive bias agains those non-white. A subconscious racial bias. It thus does not allow him to critically look at this study, but as seen instantly dismiss the findings without researching. Further proving the problems people face today, with such people like Tommy. With their bigoted cognitive bias against those not white/English.

So its very easy to see and prove the polls have correlation here, simple by Tommys bias, to immediatelly dismiss this. If he was skeptical and want to approach this scientifically. He would see there is at least a correlation, when it comes to people being wrongly suspected on race. Yet he simple dismissed this out of hand and poorly so. Due to the cognitive bias he holds racialy towards others

Like I say those polled were asked based on experince and then through the lens of perception, with some case of belief. Tommy already holds a bigoted belief and hence why he will find it impossible to be open to such polls.

In other words, his subconscious racial bias is making him closeminded to the polls here.

Someone that closeminded, fails to look at themselves critically and why they themselves hold such a negative view point of the world, seeking to constantly blame others.

He will as seen twist and turn from actually critically looking at his own bias here and simple again dismiss out of hand the perceptions people have through experince. As it fits his world belief that he has negativelly of people racially.

Its why his reasoning falls apart in countless debates. Where here, he will continue to duck and dodge everything that does not fit his biased racial beliefs.

If you do not believe me, simple watch this thread

Laters

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:35 am

Thor wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:It looks like this poll is based on belief. One person's definition of someone being rude to them might be completely different to another person's definition.


As usual you get things wrong.

How is an experince someone goes through now a belief?

If someone is wrongfully stopped by the police, for no wrong they did, a belief or an experince through the lens of perception here?

So its basically irrelevant to say whether younger people get stopped, when this shows from the links a huge disparity on race. It means you are avoiding the massive elephant in the room here

So the poll is more than anything based on experince that people have

Its also based on perceptions people have through experince, which is again not a belief

You do understand the difference between perceptions and belief that stem from the mind?

As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about. Do you understand what a perception is? It's different to an actual experience. It's not based on experience, it's based on the perceptions of an experience.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:38 am

For example, one person who doesn't get the promotion they hoped for might think they're not experienced enough, or they don't have the qualifications. Another person who doesn't get the promotion they hoped for might think it's because of their ethnic background, or because they're female. Do you see that the experience is the same, but the perception of it is different?

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:39 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

As usual you get things wrong.

How is an experince someone goes through now a belief?

If someone is wrongfully stopped by the police, for no wrong they did, a belief or an experince through the lens of perception here?

So its basically irrelevant to say whether younger people get stopped, when this shows from the links a huge disparity on race. It means you are avoiding the massive elephant in the room here

So the poll is more than anything based on experince that people have

Its also based on perceptions people have through experince, which is again not a belief

You do understand the difference between perceptions and belief that stem from the mind?

As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about. Do you understand what a perception is? It's different to an actual experience. It's not based on experience, it's based on the perceptions of an experience.

Actually I do understand this very well, being as I have a degree in psychology

I do understand what a perception is and the difference between a belief. Hence why i actually asked you

People can form perceptions based on the experinces they have.

So if you want the defintions, here they are

Perception is the way in which something is regarded, interpreted or understood, or the process of perceiving something through the senses.

Belief is an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

Here we have evidence of far more black people being wrongfully suspected of crimes andf stop by the Police

Hence its not a belief, when based on evidence

Opps

I suggest you go to night class and actually study, something you know very little about

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:43 am

Raggamuffin wrote:For example, one person who doesn't get the promotion they hoped for might think they're not experienced enough, or they don't have the qualifications. Another person who doesn't get the promotion they hoped for might think it's because of their ethnic background, or because they're female. Do you see that the experience is the same, but the perception of it is different?

Again a brilliant example of showing a bias.

Why do you have a belief promotions have to be based on qualifications and not ability?

Why would even experince matter, when somebody clearly has the skills and ability to perform said roles

The above shows again your ignorance on what perceptions is

I love helping to educate you here Rags, as you end up doing what is called the cognitive bias of "The backfire effect"

Do you know what that is?

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:46 am

Thor wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:For example, one person who doesn't get the promotion they hoped for might think they're not experienced enough, or they don't have the qualifications. Another person who doesn't get the promotion they hoped for might think it's because of their ethnic background, or because they're female. Do you see that the experience is the same, but the perception of it is different?

Again a brilliant example of showing a bias.

Why do you have a belief promotions have to be based on qualifications and not ability?

Why would even experince matter, when somebody clearly has the skills and ability to perform said roles

The above shows again your ignorance on what perceptions is

I love helping to educate you here Rags, as you end up doing what is called the cognitive bias of "The backfire effect"

Do you know what that is?

Let's see what the OP actually said about it.

The survey found that 43% of those from a minority ethnic background had been overlooked for a work promotion in a way that felt unfair in the last five years – more than twice the proportion of white people (18%) who reported the same experience.

It "felt unfair". That's different to it actually being unfair, right?

It's you who needs educating. Get your blinkers off and actually think about what's said.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:48 am

Thor wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about. Do you understand what a perception is? It's different to an actual experience. It's not based on experience, it's based on the perceptions of an experience.

Actually I do understand this very well, being as I have a degree in psychology

I do understand what a perception is and the difference between a belief. Hence why i actually asked you

People can form perceptions based on the experinces they have.

So if you want the defintions, here they are

Perception is the way in which something is regarded, interpreted or understood, or the process of perceiving something through the senses.

Belief is an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

Here we have evidence of far more black people being wrongfully suspected of crimes andf stop by the Police

Hence its not a belief, when based on evidence

Opps

I suggest you go to night class and actually study, something you know very little about

I don't know how you managed to get that degree because you know nothing about human nature.

I know what perception is - I just gave you an example of it. Do you agree that two experiences can be the same, but that the perception or interpretation of what that experience means can be very different?

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:49 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

Again a brilliant example of showing a bias.

Why do you have a belief promotions have to be based on qualifications and not ability?

Why would even experince matter, when somebody clearly has the skills and ability to perform said roles

The above shows again your ignorance on what perceptions is

I love helping to educate you here Rags, as you end up doing what is called the cognitive bias of "The backfire effect"

Do you know what that is?

Let's see what the OP actually said about it.

The survey found that 43% of those from a minority ethnic background had been overlooked for a work promotion in a way that felt unfair in the last five years – more than twice the proportion of white people (18%) who reported the same experience.

It "felt unfair". That's different to it actually being unfair, right?

It's you who needs educating. Get your blinkers off and actually think about what's said.

Is it different to being unfair, if they have the ability and skills to do the job?

You do realise most people are taken on based more on how their face fits

I know this more than anyone, being as I have interviewed many people

Hence a bias forms into the equation when people are selected for roles.

So its very well understood, that people would feel an unfair system is at play, when it already is through selection through interviews.

As everyone has a cognitive bias.

Or did you not even understand this also?

Nice avoidance by the way on the evidence surrounding wrongfully suspecting someone, but here I am also offering you more evidence.

Hence that is not a belief also, its a reality

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:52 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

Actually I do understand this very well, being as I have a degree in psychology

I do understand what a perception is and the difference between a belief. Hence why i actually asked you

People can form perceptions based on the experinces they have.

So if you want the defintions, here they are

Perception is the way in which something is regarded, interpreted or understood, or the process of perceiving something through the senses.

Belief is an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

Here we have evidence of far more black people being wrongfully suspected of crimes andf stop by the Police

Hence its not a belief, when based on evidence

Opps

I suggest you go to night class and actually study, something you know very little about

I don't know how you managed to get that degree because you know nothing about human nature.

I know what perception is - I just gave you an example of it. Do you agree that two experiences can be the same, but that the perception or interpretation of what that experience means can be very different?

I know plenty about human nature

So you could not answer my questions again, which falls down to the backfire effect I was talking about.

You are simple not aware of this

Of course two expriences can actually be the same, when wrongfully stopped for no crime someone has commited, based on the colour of their skin.


Last edited by Thor on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:53 am

Thor wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Let's see what the OP actually said about it.



It "felt unfair". That's different to it actually being unfair, right?

It's you who needs educating. Get your blinkers off and actually think about what's said.

Is it different to being unfair, if they have the ability and skills to do the job?

You do realise most people are taken on based more on how their face fits

I know this more than anyone, being as I have interviewed many people

Hence a bias forms into the equation when people are selected for roles.

So its very well understood, that people would feel an unfair system is at play, when it already is through selection through interviews.

As everyone has a cognitive bias.

Or did you not even understand this also?

Nice avoidance by the way on the evidence surrounding wrongfully suspecting someone, but here I am also offering you more evidence.

Hence that is not a belief also, its a reality

There's no information about what ability and skills they have though, so it's meaningless.

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:54 am

Thor wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I don't know how you managed to get that degree because you know nothing about human nature.

I know what perception is - I just gave you an example of it. Do you agree that two experiences can be the same, but that the perception or interpretation of what that experience means can be very different?

I know plenty about human nature

So you could not answer my questions again, which falls down to the backfire effect I was talking about.

You are simple not aware of this

Of course two exeprinces can actually be the same, when wrongfully stopped for no crime someone has commited, based on the colour of their skin.

You're still not getting it. Concentrate on the perception of two experiences which are the same - eg, not getting promotion.

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:54 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

Is it different to being unfair, if they have the ability and skills to do the job?

You do realise most people are taken on based more on how their face fits

I know this more than anyone, being as I have interviewed many people

Hence a bias forms into the equation when people are selected for roles.

So its very well understood, that people would feel an unfair system is at play, when it already is through selection through interviews.

As everyone has a cognitive bias.

Or did you not even understand this also?

Nice avoidance by the way on the evidence surrounding wrongfully suspecting someone, but here I am also offering you more evidence.

Hence that is not a belief also, its a reality

There's no information about what ability and skills they have though, so it's meaningless.

Just like your thought process throughout this

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:55 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

I know plenty about human nature

So you could not answer my questions again, which falls down to the backfire effect I was talking about.

You are simple not aware of this

Of course two exeprinces can actually be the same, when wrongfully stopped for no crime someone has commited, based on the colour of their skin.

You're still not getting it. Concentrate on the perception of two experiences which are the same - eg, not getting promotion.

I am getting it fine, that you are closeminded

That is very simple

There will be often a cognitive bias, when people are picked for promotions

That is simple a fact

You do not want to accept these facts

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:03 pm

I will leave you with one point Rags, just to show how cognitive bias and more so self enhancement bias works.

How many people think on here they are good drivers?

Have a good day people

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Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:25 pm

Thor wrote:I will leave you with one point Rags, just to show how cognitive bias and more so self enhancement bias works.

How many people think on here they are good drivers?

Have a good day people

You just agreed with me. Whether or not you think you're a good driver depends on perception.

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:35 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:I will leave you with one point Rags, just to show how cognitive bias and more so self enhancement bias works.

How many people think on here they are good drivers?

Have a good day people

You just agreed with me. Whether or not you think you're a good driver depends on perception.

Why have driving tests, if its based on perception?

So for example would you class formula one drivers as good drivers?

Is that based on perception or skills Rags?

Opps again

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:49 pm

You see what you are failing to see here Rags. Is yes many people will form perceptions based on their own abilities, but in many aspects of work. This simple becomes redundent when people hold said skills. Whether that be an engineer, nurse etc. They have the skills to do the job. Where when it comes to promotions, often a bias is what holds sway in how people are picked for promotion. Of course other aspects play a part, based on confidence for example, but being confident, is not necessarily a defining factor, but is often seen as an attribute that people decide on. As to whether that person should fill that promotion. People far better at performing a role can be often overlooked. Through a lens of bias. Which its clear through history this happens to people from a collective group like women and race for example. You will no doubt find it also happens to men.

The point you neglect to understand is that if people are equally, in having the ability to do a role. Where they are not chosen, will be based on cognitive bias,. That the people choosing the applicant have. If some of these people hold a subconscious racial bias. Which could be born from any experince they have been through. Then that person is either at a disadvantage or advantage based on the colour of their skin, gender, sexuality etc

That is what you are failing to grasp here and why its actually you not understanding human nature in regads to cogntive bias.

All the best

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Post by veya_victaous on Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:21 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:For example, one person who doesn't get the promotion they hoped for might think they're not experienced enough, or they don't have the qualifications. Another person who doesn't get the promotion they hoped for might think it's because of their ethnic background, or because they're female. Do you see that the experience is the same, but the perception of it is different?


But it's not just 'personal perception' that's the points
the perception is so largely felt in minorities that it becomes apparent in statistics.

As I alluded to earlier the problem is that if a minority is being told regularly that they are 'inferior/unwelcome' by individuals of the majority race (even if it's not the majority view in the majority race) then their brain ends up stereotyping the majority race as racist.
So Yes they may be perceiving racism in a situation where it was just 'luck', but why do they have heightened perceptions of racism? Because too often that is what they receive from 'society'

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:52 am

i merely suspect the o/p on the grounds that like so many "studies" It is likely to have been comissioned by a body seeking yet more funds

it produces statistics and there is truth in the old adage of "there are lies, damned lies and then there is statistics"

and of course statistics can be interpreted to suit any cause you want them to.

however I suspect from personal observation and the point veya has mad, that there is at least a grain of truth in the poll....

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:58 am

oh and Thor.....I know I'm a good driver...having been trained in defensive and evasive driving, and having held a PCV licence for many years...now surrendered since I no longer need it.

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:06 am

Lord Foul wrote:oh and Thor.....I know I'm a good driver...having been trained in defensive and evasive driving, and having held a PCV licence for many years...now surrendered since I no longer need it.


So you have had extensive skilled dirving lessons, which requires skills right?

Hence the point on certain  people having good driving skills.

That is not based on perceptions, but based on being able to pass highly skilled tests

Correct?

Your view to suspect the study, shows the problem you yourself fail to recognise within yourself

A cognitive bias

Had you looked sketically at your own thinking here and been open minded to the fact. That people do suffer from this kind of bias daily. Where even you no doubt have chosen people through an unsubconcious bias you feel towards them. We are all guilty of this and it effects all of us, through life experinces. 

The reality is more ethnic minorities have and do suffer discrimination. We also see more ethnic minorities are wrongfully stopped by the Police. In fact the arrest ratio is one in 5 that leads to an arrest. Hardly a winning formula and proves how sterotypes formed, through a bias, leads to people making assumptions and often not based on intelligence, but how they perceive someone. Often based on the colour of their skin with the police. So where there is higher criminality levels say in London with those cast black. This becomes endemic in thinking through a bias. Thus more black people come wrongfully under suspicision. As its never based on any evidence, just a stigma, throughsuch a cogntive bias.

When a poll actually matches data on stop and searches. Then you have a correlation to that poll.

Why would you then be skepitical of that evidence?

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:12 am

who are the biggest victims in londons knife crime explosion?
who are the biggest perps?

so who do you target in your stop and search policy?

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:15 am

Lord Foul wrote:who are the biggest victims in londons knife crime explosion?
who are the biggest perps?

so who do you target in your stop and search policy?

Dumb reasoning mate

Well how do you want to break this down?

Why should any group be targeted without evidence?

Are people now supcicous based on numbers of victims and suspects to crime on group identity?

Again one in 5 stop and searches leads to an arrest in London, which is not then necessarilly leading to a trial or conviction

Do you think stop and searches has led to the arrest of many of the people that have committed murder wih knife and gun attacks?

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Post by Victorismyhero on Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:19 am

that isnt the point...stop and search is to remove the weapons BEFORE a murder is committed....and to create an atmosphere where carrying a knife is regarded as "risky"

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:23 am

Lord Foul wrote:that isnt the point...stop and search is to remove the weapons BEFORE a murder is committed....and to create an atmosphere where carrying a knife is regarded as "risky"


How many murders have been prevented though stop and search?

I will tell you

Zero

If someone is intent on murder, stop and search will never prevent that

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Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:31 am

The reality is Mate, is that our own laws, is what is stopping the Police making the country far safer. They know who most of these drug gangs are in London and are basically powerless to act.

MY views has always been the same. Starve these gangs of their resource, by making drugs legal and safer. Starve them of their revenue. 

To the ones that are criminal robbers. They also know who many of them are, they simple lack evidence to arrest and convict.

Hence to me, I see stop and search as a lottery, which has little to no effect in preventing crime. In other words its a complete waste of police time. Espically when its rare that those numbers come up.

Do you see my point?

Night


Last edited by Thor on Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:34 am; edited 1 time in total

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Revealed: the stark evidence of everyday racial bias in Britain Empty Re: Revealed: the stark evidence of everyday racial bias in Britain

Post by Victorismyhero on Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:33 am

it may not stop intended murder but it will reduce "incidental" knife use in many cases and besides, its illegal to carry a knife so Revealed: the stark evidence of everyday racial bias in Britain 2190311264

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Revealed: the stark evidence of everyday racial bias in Britain Empty Re: Revealed: the stark evidence of everyday racial bias in Britain

Post by phildidge on Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:35 am

Lord Foul wrote:it may not stop intended murder but it will reduce "incidental" knife use in many cases and besides, its illegal to carry a knife so Revealed: the stark evidence of everyday racial bias in Britain 2190311264


Is that why we are seing the opposite happen?

Its not going to reduce anything. Its based on a lottery principle

Pot luck

Have a good evening mate

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Revealed: the stark evidence of everyday racial bias in Britain Empty Re: Revealed: the stark evidence of everyday racial bias in Britain

Post by nicko on Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:28 am

Almost every murder by knife in London was by Black on Black. You can't argue about that !
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