The Lunacy of How the Far Left Support the Nightmare of Socialism In Venezula

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Post by phildidge on Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:23 pm

Ken Livingstone made the brave choice of going on This Week to make a film explaining why “my friend Hugo Chavez” wasn’t responsible for the economic misery that has been wrought upon Venezuela and it’s all America’s fault instead. It’s almost worth watching just for Ken’s opening line of “Remember me? I used to be Mayor of London”…

Predictably, Ken’s bogus arguments were completely torn apart by Andrew Neil afterwards, with a hapless Livingstone reduced to saying: “I don’t know, I’m a retired pensioner, I don’t have staff providing the information”. His only defence after that was that the Venezuelan ambassador had told him it was true. At least he wasn’t quoting the anti-Semitic historical revisionist ‘UN rapporteur’ that Chris Williamson is so keen on…

Brillo then did the public service of explaining to Ken some of the real reasons why Venezuela is a basket case, including decades of self-enriching dictatorship, random confiscation of private property, price controls, and putting a loyalist army General in charge of the national oil company. Ken’s probably wishing he’d stayed in retirement…

https://order-order.com/2019/02/01/brillo-tears-apart-ken-livingstone-venezuela/

Video's on link

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Post by Andy on Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:37 pm

This interview of Livingstone has all the hallmarks of yet other Andrew Neil stitch up of a left winger. He has lots of history. Gina  Miller, Owen Jones, Carole Cadwalladr.
Why invite in a retired 70+ pensioner who is out of the political loop?
Because he cannot argue against those who will beat him.


Last edited by Andy on Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by phildidge on Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:39 pm

Andy wrote:This I review of Livingstone has all theal marks of yet other Andrew Neil stitch up of a left winger. He has lots of history. Gina  Miller, Owen Jones, Carole Cadwalladr.
Why invite in a retired 70+ pensioner who is out of the polital loop?
Because he cannot argue against those who will beat him

You are defending an antisemite in Ken Livingston now Andy?

Did you actually watch the videos?

Are you also excusing the failed socialism experiment in Venezuala?

Love the left. Ignore the blatant lies peddalled by Ken and turn this onto Andrew Neil instead

sigh

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Post by Andy on Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:43 pm

I am asking why Neil.doesn't challenge more robust and redoubtable adversaries?
Because he is tainted, a coward and a biased Rw Brexiteer.

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Post by phildidge on Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:45 pm

Andy wrote:I am asking why Neil.doesn't challenge more robust and redoubtable adversaries?
Because he is tainted, a coward and a biased Rw Brexiteer.


Well I have seen him take on many people, but the topic here is on how the Far left in this country support this appalling regeme. That has seen millions become refugees, countless people die including babies. I think that matters more than who you think he should debate, dont you Andy?

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Post by nicko on Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:57 pm

Andy is sadly deluded, No hope I'm afraid, -----sigh.
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Post by Original Quill on Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:10 pm

I lov to watch knuckledraggers shiver at the mere mention of 'socialism'. They look like...um, what's the word? Snowflakes.

Socialism is not a culture. It's not even a form of government. It is a group of economic theories aimed at dealing the the reality of industrialism and tooling. As tools became more elaborate (from hammers to huge foundries and presses), they became more expensive and unattainable. Socialism defines a way to solve this problem...namely, to band together socially so as to afford the tooling. George Lichtheim, The Origins of Socialism (1969).

If you think about it, capitalism is simply a form of socialism: people banding together in "shares", to purchase tools (factories, etc.). Other forms have appeared...councils, guilds, trade-unionism even governments.

It's a practical economic theory...an advancement on capitalism because it eliminates the need for profit. As such, there is more wealth—or, as I like to say, fewer mouths to feed.

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Post by phildidge on Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:12 pm

Capitalism is a form of socialism?

Even though it formed before Socialism

Razz

OMG

Thanks for the laugh Quill

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:59 pm

Thor wrote:Ken Livingstone made the brave choice of going on This Week to make a film explaining why “my friend Hugo Chavez” wasn’t responsible for the economic misery that has been wrought upon Venezuela and it’s all America’s fault instead. It’s almost worth watching just for Ken’s opening line of “Remember me? I used to be Mayor of London”…

Predictably, Ken’s bogus arguments were completely torn apart by Andrew Neil afterwards, with a hapless Livingstone reduced to saying: “I don’t know, I’m a retired pensioner, I don’t have staff providing the information”. His only defence after that was that the Venezuelan ambassador had told him it was true. At least he wasn’t quoting the anti-Semitic historical revisionist ‘UN rapporteur’ that Chris Williamson is so keen on…

Brillo then did the public service of explaining to Ken some of the real reasons why Venezuela is a basket case, including decades of self-enriching dictatorship, random confiscation of private property, price controls, and putting a loyalist army General in charge of the national oil company. Ken’s probably wishing he’d stayed in retirement…

https://order-order.com/2019/02/01/brillo-tears-apart-ken-livingstone-venezuela/

Video's on link



I watched this last night on tv... and Ken Livingstone made a complete twat of himself...!


He was spewing out absolute lies about the cause of the problems in Venezuela... he claimed that it was sanctions imposed by America what done it... which is completely untrue!!!


And when it was explained to him that the only sanctions imposed by America on Venezuela were decided only this week to be imposed, and as a result of the political situation, so in no way being a cause of anything... Livingstone kept on going on talking bullshit and trying to repeat his completely ficticious claim!!!


He was then going on about being against the proposed interim leader taking over... only to be reminded that the guy is part of Venezuelas socialist democrats party and they are a sister party of the Labour party... and that it was actually the Venezuela political senate who had ruled that he take over as interim leader, as the Venezuela constitution allows this to happen!!!



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Post by Maddog on Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:06 pm

Original Quill wrote:I lov to watch knuckledraggers shiver at the mere mention of 'socialism'.  They look like...um, what's the word?  Snowflakes.

Socialism is not a culture.  It's not even a form of government.  It is a group of economic theories aimed at dealing the the reality of industrialism and tooling.  As tools became more elaborate (from hammers to huge foundries and presses), they became more expensive and unattainable.  Socialism defines a way to solve this problem...namely, to band together socially so as to afford the tooling.  George Lichtheim, The Origins of Socialism (1969).

If you think about it, capitalism is simply a form of socialism: people banding together in "shares", to purchase tools (factories, etc.).  Other forms have appeared...councils, guilds, trade-unionism even governments.

It's a practical economic theory...an advancement on capitalism because it eliminates the need for profit.  As such, there is more wealth—or, as I like to say, fewer mouths to feed.

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

You know, like Venezuela.

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Post by phildidge on Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:07 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Thor wrote:Ken Livingstone made the brave choice of going on This Week to make a film explaining why “my friend Hugo Chavez” wasn’t responsible for the economic misery that has been wrought upon Venezuela and it’s all America’s fault instead. It’s almost worth watching just for Ken’s opening line of “Remember me? I used to be Mayor of London”…

Predictably, Ken’s bogus arguments were completely torn apart by Andrew Neil afterwards, with a hapless Livingstone reduced to saying: “I don’t know, I’m a retired pensioner, I don’t have staff providing the information”. His only defence after that was that the Venezuelan ambassador had told him it was true. At least he wasn’t quoting the anti-Semitic historical revisionist ‘UN rapporteur’ that Chris Williamson is so keen on…

Brillo then did the public service of explaining to Ken some of the real reasons why Venezuela is a basket case, including decades of self-enriching dictatorship, random confiscation of private property, price controls, and putting a loyalist army General in charge of the national oil company. Ken’s probably wishing he’d stayed in retirement…

https://order-order.com/2019/02/01/brillo-tears-apart-ken-livingstone-venezuela/

Video's on link



I watched this last night on tv... and Ken Livingstone made a complete twat of himself...!


He was spewing out absolute lies about the cause of the problems in Venezuela... he claimed that it was sanctions imposed by America what done it... which is completely untrue!!!


And when it was explained to him that the only sanctions imposed by America on Venezuela were decided only this week to be imposed, and as a result of the political situation, so in no way being a cause of anything... Livingstone kept on going on talking bullshit and trying to repeat his completely ficticious claim!!!


He was then going on about being against the proposed interim leader taking over... only to be reminded that the guy is part of Venezuelas socialist democrats party and they are a sister party of the Labour party... and that it was actually the Venezuela political senate who had ruled that he take over as interim leader, as the Venezuela constitution allows this to happen!!!





I quite agree Tommy, have a thanks for seeing this at it was

He is not the only person from Labour that has defended here

Have a read of the following

https://order-order.com/2019/01/31/chris-williamsons-maduro-supporting-un-rapporteur-antisemitic-castro-loving-historical-revisionist/

https://order-order.com/2019/02/01/mcdonnell-teams-anti-semitic-rapper-defend-maduro/

https://order-order.com/2019/01/28/chris-williamsons-shameful-venezuelan-statement/

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Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:18 pm



Wasn't Jeremy Corbyn previously praising Maduro too...!?



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Post by phildidge on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:18 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Wasn't Jeremy Corbyn previously praising Maduro too...!?




Yep

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Post by >THE Ben Reilly< on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:54 pm

I find it hard to believe that too many serious left-wingers take any of the corrupt socialist/communist regimes of Latin America as a role model for any kind of ideal society.

Give me Sweden, Denmark, Norway ...

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Post by phildidge on Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:59 pm

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:I find  it hard  to believe that too many serious left-wingers take any of the corrupt socialist/communist regimes of Latin America as a role model for any kind of ideal society.

Give me Sweden, Denmark, Norway ...


But they are a a hybred socialism, which has forms of capitalism Ben

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Post by >THE Ben Reilly< on Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:07 am

Thor wrote:
>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:I find  it hard  to believe that too many serious left-wingers take any of the corrupt socialist/communist regimes of Latin America as a role model for any kind of ideal society.

Give me Sweden, Denmark, Norway ...


But they are a a hybred socialism, which has forms of capitalism Ben

Absolutely, and it works, which is why I like it. It's a society that has room for the go-getting ambitious people who have brilliant ideas, and yet doesn't leave the little guy in the cold.

By the way, I don't think many British people realize how closer to the Scandinavian model their country is when compared to America.
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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:13 am

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:
Thor wrote:

But they are a a hybred socialism, which has forms of capitalism Ben

Absolutely, and it works, which is why I like it. It's a society that has room for the go-getting ambitious people who have brilliant ideas, and yet doesn't leave the little guy in the cold.

By the way, I don't think many British people realize how closer to the Scandinavian model their country is when compared to America.

Its more like the other way round, where nations have take nthe best parts from the Uk and made them better.

Take the NHS for example. No European country has adopted this policy. They have adpated this and made it better.

Though clearly economically, the Uk is miles better than any EU nation at present. Hence I believe they are so scared to lose them

I see your point though

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:55 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:I lov to watch knuckledraggers shiver at the mere mention of 'socialism'.  They look like...um, what's the word?  Snowflakes.

Socialism is not a culture.  It's not even a form of government.  It is a group of economic theories aimed at dealing the the reality of industrialism and tooling.  As tools became more elaborate (from hammers to huge foundries and presses), they became more expensive and unattainable.  Socialism defines a way to solve this problem...namely, to band together socially so as to afford the tooling.  George Lichtheim, The Origins of Socialism (1969).

If you think about it, capitalism is simply a form of socialism: people banding together in "shares", to purchase tools (factories, etc.).  Other forms have appeared...councils, guilds, trade-unionism even governments.

It's a practical economic theory...an advancement on capitalism because it eliminates the need for profit.  As such, there is more wealth—or, as I like to say, fewer mouths to feed.

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

You know, like Venezuela.

Rolling Eyes

No, Maddog, not like Venezuela at all...

They had Marxists preaching "socialism" before they took power..

When they actually gained government, through military force and corruption, however, like many authoritarian dictatorships before them, any guiding "socialist" policies from their opposition days were tossed aside.

Seeing right-wing propagandists continually labelling the Venezuelan dictatorships' disaster as a "failed socialist experiment" only goes to show how many people are completely ignorant of various economic systems -- or deliberately muddying the waters, to favour their corporatist/'free market' overlords..

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:46 am

Thor wrote:Capitalism is a form of socialism?

Even though it formed before Socialism

Razz

OMG

Thanks for the laugh Quill

It didn't form before socialism. That's the point. Capitalism formed as a result of the same forces, in the same direction, at the same time.

Any "social"ism is simply a collectivity amassing resources together for a larger enterprise. Social = being such in plural situations. That defines wealthy people amassing money to purchase advanced tooling for enterprise (capitalism), or workers joining together to to purchase advanced tooling for themselves (guilds). Capitalism was simply an early form of plural answers to industrialism.

**shakes head at the deterioration of cognitive strength of this website**

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Post by phildidge on Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:17 am

Original Quill wrote:
Thor wrote:Capitalism is a form of socialism?

Even though it formed before Socialism

Razz

OMG

Thanks for the laugh Quill

It didn't form before socialism.  That's the point.  Capitalism formed as a result of the same forces, in the same direction, at the same time.

Any "social"ism is simply a collectivity amassing resources together for a larger enterprise.  Social = being such in plural situations.  That defines wealthy people amassing money to purchase advanced tooling for enterprise (capitalism), or workers joining together to to purchase advanced tooling for themselves (guilds).  Capitalism was simply an early form of plural answers to industrialism.

**shakes head at the deterioration of cognitive strength of this website**


The Lunacy of How the Far Left Support the Nightmare of Socialism In Venezula 3489511464

Come again?

I am certainly laughing at the bull crap you continue to come out with and socialists tend to do said crap thinking. When their idealism is shown to be inherantly flawed. They change tact and then try to make this about capitalism. As you did with FGM, with circumcision..

In other words, its a poor ruse by you, which is never going to work, as its full of idiocy

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Post by nicko on Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:59 am

Lawyer speak from Quill ? Laughing
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Post by Original Quill on Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:52 pm

nicko wrote:Lawyer speak from Quill ? Laughing

I'm quite pleased to have the skills of a lawyer, but my post is more in the realm of economic history. Wink

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Post by Maddog on Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:06 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

You know, like Venezuela.

Rolling Eyes

No,  Maddog,  not like Venezuela at all...

They had Marxists preaching "socialism" before they took power..

When they actually gained government, through military force and corruption, however,  like many authoritarian dictatorships before them, any guiding "socialist" policies from their opposition days were tossed aside.

Seeing right-wing propagandists continually labelling the Venezuelan dictatorships' disaster as a "failed socialist experiment" only goes to show how many people are completely ignorant of various economic systems --  or deliberately muddying the waters, to favour their corporatist/'free market' overlords..

What system would you categorize Venezuela and Cuba as?

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:10 pm

Desperate totalitarianism.

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Post by Maddog on Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:21 pm


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Post by Victorismyhero on Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:24 pm

I would have thought that both capitalism and socialism evolved side by side, in practice if not as a written theory...
in almost any society there will be those who work collectively and those who work for their olwn gains

lets take a stone age society

all results of the hunt go collectively to the tribe, though likely the chief has the first pick

however the best flint knapper probably doesnt join the hunt but stays behind and makes the best wepons for the chief and his family.....and can "charge" almost what he wants in terms of goods in exchange and even possibly power

look at the bronze age

the same applies except that added to the hunt is the results of "collective" agriculture, however the bronzesmith is not hunting or in the field, indeed he is regarded as a magician and likely both revered and feared, anmd reaps rich rewards in terms of produce wives power etc.../

so both the bronze smith and the flint knapper are capitalists and the rest are socialists.

also of course to be included are the archetypal capitalists, the priests, who have found a way to do absolutely nothing for a lot of "income". (which goes a long way to explaining why the world is so fucked today)

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Post by Maddog on Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:47 pm

Lord Foul wrote:I would have thought that both capitalism and socialism evolved side by side, in practice if not as a written theory...
in almost any society there will be those who work collectively and those who work for their olwn gains

lets take a stone age society

all results of the hunt go collectively to the tribe, though likely the chief has the first pick

however the best flint knapper probably doesnt join the hunt but stays behind and makes the best wepons for the chief and his family.....and can "charge" almost what he wants in terms of goods in exchange and even possibly power

look at the bronze age

the same applies except that added to the hunt is the results of "collective" agriculture, however the bronzesmith is not hunting or in the field, indeed he is regarded as a magician and likely both revered and feared, anmd reaps rich rewards in terms of produce wives power etc.../

so both the bronze smith and the flint knapper are capitalists and the rest are socialists.

also of course to be included are the archetypal capitalists, the priests, who have found a way to do absolutely nothing for a lot of "income". (which goes a long way to explaining why the world is so fucked today)


You're missing one of the key distinctions. 

Voluntary vs non voluntary.  

Socialism won't work without force.

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Post by Fred Moletrousers on Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:52 pm

Andy wrote:This interview of Livingstone has all the hallmarks of yet other Andrew Neil stitch up of a left winger. He has lots of history. Gina  Miller, Owen Jones, Carole Cadwalladr.
Why invite in a retired 70+ pensioner who is out of the political loop?
Because he cannot argue against those who will beat him.

All those people have no problems with spouting forth on public platforms of their own choosing, and it is entirely up to them whether they wish to cross swords with an interviewer who is not exactly unknown for his belligerent style and who will not put up with their attempts to evade perfectly legitimate questions.

I have seen and heard him tear Right wing as well as Left wing wafflemongers apart, and he does it very well...because it is his job and it is what he's paid for.

So far as Jones is concerned, he is a conceited little sod and a typical Guardian commentator and self-appointed, self-worshipping pundit who simply cannot accept that not everyone is going to go into post orgasmic rapture on hearing his divine words.

Livingstone may well be a 70+ year old pensioner, but he lost not no opportunity in the past of extolling the "virtues" of his good friend Chavez and, like Corbyn, of praising the so-called Socialist Utopia that is now that corrupt, vile and violent shithole of a dictatorship, the real Venezuela.
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Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:30 am

Maddog wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:I would have thought that both capitalism and socialism evolved side by side, in practice if not as a written theory...
in almost any society there will be those who work collectively and those who work for their olwn gains

lets take a stone age society

all results of the hunt go collectively to the tribe, though likely the chief has the first pick

however the best flint knapper probably doesnt join the hunt but stays behind and makes the best wepons for the chief and his family.....and can "charge" almost what he wants in terms of goods in exchange and even possibly power

look at the bronze age

the same applies except that added to the hunt is the results of "collective" agriculture, however the bronzesmith is not hunting or in the field, indeed he is regarded as a magician and likely both revered and feared, anmd reaps rich rewards in terms of produce wives power etc.../

so both the bronze smith and the flint knapper are capitalists and the rest are socialists.

also of course to be included are the archetypal capitalists, the priests, who have found a way to do absolutely nothing for a lot of "income". (which goes a long way to explaining why the world is so fucked today)


You're missing one of the key distinctions. 

Voluntary vs non voluntary.  

Socialism won't work without force.

All cartels require adherence, including capitalism. Look at OPEC, and what happens when they don’t stick together. It's economics 101.

But before that they all require collectivism. Capitalism included...joining together capital. The only problem is that capitalists take, being separate from the workers and artisans who need the tooling, a new share...thus comprising another mouth to feed. The problem is compounded when capitalist insist on ownership. This can be eliminated by councils or socialist governments, which offer the capital and receive the ownership..

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:29 am

Maddog wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:I would have thought that both capitalism and socialism evolved side by side, in practice if not as a written theory...
in almost any society there will be those who work collectively and those who work for their olwn gains

lets take a stone age society

all results of the hunt go collectively to the tribe, though likely the chief has the first pick

however the best flint knapper probably doesnt join the hunt but stays behind and makes the best wepons for the chief and his family.....and can "charge" almost what he wants in terms of goods in exchange and even possibly power

look at the bronze age

the same applies except that added to the hunt is the results of "collective" agriculture, however the bronzesmith is not hunting or in the field, indeed he is regarded as a magician and likely both revered and feared, anmd reaps rich rewards in terms of produce wives power etc.../

so both the bronze smith and the flint knapper are capitalists and the rest are socialists.

also of course to be included are the archetypal capitalists, the priests, who have found a way to do absolutely nothing for a lot of "income". (which goes a long way to explaining why the world is so fucked today)


You're missing one of the key distinctions. 

Voluntary vs non voluntary.  

Socialism won't work without force.

Rolling Eyes

Pure bullshit, Maddog...

Any authoritarian system won't work without force --  whether that be communist, fascist, pure capitalist/corporatist, theocracy or monarchy..

Then again, you obviously don't even recognise the difference between a communist dictatorship/"socialist 'democracy' " on one hand,  and genuine democratic 'mixed economy' socialist societies.    Which is what Quill, veya, Ben, eilzel and i often talk about --  against your patent economic illiteracy..

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Post by Maddog on Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:57 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:


You're missing one of the key distinctions. 

Voluntary vs non voluntary.  

Socialism won't work without force.

Rolling Eyes

Pure bullshit, Maddog...

Any authoritarian system won't work without force --  whether that be communist, fascist, pure capitalist/corporatist, theocracy or monarchy..

Then again, you obviously don't even recognise the difference between a communist dictatorship/"socialist 'democracy' " on one hand,  and genuine democratic 'mixed economy' socialist societies.    Which is what Quill, veya, Ben, eilzel and i often talk about --  against your patent economic illiteracy..


Socialism requires central planning.  That planning has fo be enforced.  

No doubt many other systems use force too.

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Post by Maddog on Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:59 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:


You're missing one of the key distinctions. 

Voluntary vs non voluntary.  

Socialism won't work without force.

All cartels require adherence, including capitalism.  Look at OPEC, and what happens when they don’t stick together.  It's economics 101.

But before that they all require collectivism.  Capitalism included...joining together capital.  The only problem is that capitalists take, being separate from the workers and artisans who need the tooling, a new share...thus comprising another mouth to feed.  The problem is compounded when capitalist insist on ownership.  This can be eliminated by councils or socialist governments, which offer the capital and receive the ownership..
If a capitalist wants ownership, why not just let him?

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:53 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

All cartels require adherence, including capitalism.  Look at OPEC, and what happens when they don’t stick together.  It's economics 101.

But before that they all require collectivism.  Capitalism included...joining together capital.  The only problem is that capitalists take, being separate from the workers and artisans who need the tooling, a new share...thus comprising another mouth to feed.  The problem is compounded when capitalist insist on ownership.  This can be eliminated by councils or socialist governments, which offer the capital and receive the ownership..

If a capitalist wants ownership, why not just let him?

Or a worker, or a council, or a government.  Any arrangement of ownership is fine…provided it is not a parasitic interloper.  It should be necessary to the chain of production (land, labor, initiative).

The point is that a capitalist has no business in the chain of production...and from that, in the chain of ownership.  Capital is peripherial.  

Tools in the 16th and 17th century were hammers, chisels, saws, and various different hand-made devices that the artisan made him or herself.  The industrial revolution brought bigger, more complex and expensive tools, such as presses, conveyor belts, drills, and such of the like, usually actuated by mills.  With the steam motor, actuators became independent.  With independence, came more expensive actuated tools...also, more expensive.  The industrial revolution gave rise to a new problem: how to reunite workers with their tools, given that they were more expensive and less accessible.

It became obvious that the artisan had to go 'social', or collect in groups in order to afford the equipment necessary.  Guilds and trade-unions arose.  Eventually, a class of men was born that did away with product altogether, and only provided the tools.  Then, they dropped that craft, and became the persons who only supplied the money or capital for the tools.

They were called capitalists, and banded together in social assemblages (hence their association with socialism) or trusts, through shares, forming corporations.  Because they owned the money, which controlled the tools, they held a monopolistic position on the chain of production.  They used that monopolistic position to create a new, abstract kind of ownership.

What is different about capitalists is that they are entirely unnecessary to the chain of production.  Literally, their hands never touch the product.  They could be replaced by voluntary associations of craftsmen (councils), or by governments, working on behalf of craftsmen, and thereupon the public (socialist political systems).  These alternatives would provide the same service with no cost.

Why is capitalism detrimental to the chain of production?  Capitalism adds an additional and unnecessary demand on the chain of production, indeed greatly extorted by their monopolistic position.  Their hands never touch the product.  They are another, yet unnecessary mouth to feed.  Voluntary associations or governments could provide their services for free, or simply cost of operations.

Capitalism really does not belong in the chain of production.  It is a parasitic interloper.  It is excess weight, for which more modern, streamlined systems exist to provide the same thing with less cost to the community.  Knowing that it is expendable, in one way or another capitalists have entrenched themselves through ownership.  We don’t just buy food, but we buy Safeway food.  We don’t just buy floor sweepers, we buy Hoovers.  Instead of hand-crafted carriages by a local smith, we buy Fords, Mazdas and Volvos.  Through ownership, along with size and identity, the capitalists derive power and resources out of the chain of production, without ever touching the product.

They could be eliminated with the yield of much greater efficiency.

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:50 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Rolling Eyes

Pure bullshit, Maddog...

Any authoritarian system won't work without force --  whether that be communist, fascist, pure capitalist/corporatist, theocracy or monarchy..

Then again, you obviously don't even recognise the difference between a communist dictatorship/"socialist 'democracy' " on one hand,  and genuine democratic 'mixed economy' socialist societies.    Which is what Quill, veya, Ben, eilzel and i often talk about --  against your patent economic illiteracy..


Socialism requires central planning.  That planning has fo be enforced.  

No doubt many other systems use force too.

Arrow

Every economic system needs some degree of "central" planning...

The USA has it's central planning in Washington; Britain in Westminster; Oz in Canberra..

Without any federal governance and some degree of 'overwatch', a purely "laissez faire" free market/'supply side' economy will not survive and prosper, as cartels and corporatist wolves form their own armies and simply take what they want.

Once again, you continually refuse to recognise the essential differences between autocratic communist, fascist and monarchist dictatorships on one side, and the genuinely democratic socialist and "mixed" economies that do exist..

Ask yourself, also, why no "Libertarian" -focused government has ever survived once it has feached a certain 'critical mass' in size -- eventually either reverting to a more mainstream system, or falling into some money-focused autocracy or oligarchy...

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:55 am

There is a major flaw in the theory of Adam Smith and classic free-market economics.  Smith says that competition will take the shape of creating efficiencies, beyond which will be price cutting of one's own product.  

In fact, the form that competition takes is much more savage.  Producers will not try to make themselves more efficient, but try to drive others out of the competition.  They use monopolistic practices to take the advantage, and drive the "others" out of business.  Then they do what all monopolists do, namely drive up prices randomly and unnecessarily.  The unregulated market system leads to massive inefficiency, as we saw in the late 19th-century.

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If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:41 pm

Fascism is socialism with a thin veneer of capitalism... some companies are lrft in private ownership but they are all in reality, heavily controlled by the state, who dictate what is produced, how much is produced, and prices, and control all the supply lines and the means of production.

The owners are effectively relegated to being state controlled managers of the companies they 'own'...



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Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:21 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Fascism is socialism with a thin veneer of capitalism... some companies are lrft in private ownership but they are all in reality, heavily controlled by the state, who dictate what is produced, how much is produced, and prices, and control all the supply lines and the means of production.

The owners are effectively relegated to being state controlled managers of the companies they 'own'...

Fascism is a bastardization of any theory, political or economic. Essentially, it was opportunism trying to dress up as more distinguished ideas, with the underlying motive of trying to justify raw power and brutality.

It reminds me of Jackson Browne, a 60's singer and songwriter, whose songs were absolute bullshite. Listen to the lyrics: no meaning whatsoever! But they really sounded good...great music, wonderful instrumentation, excellent turns of phrases, etc. But no narrative.

If you understand that genre, fascism was of the same sort. Fascism’s cousin, Nazism, borrowed the word socialism (National Socialism), trying to associate itself with the intellectual movements of the time. It had none of the history of socialism, none of the motives, nor any of the effects. At a time when 'isms' were most popular, it was offered to look and appeal as good music.

Fascism was simply raw power, devoted to the whims of a single dictator. It was not theory...it dominated both politics and economics to its own will, and eventually collapsed under it's own irrationality and lack of mission.

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If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:29 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Fascism is socialism with a thin veneer of capitalism... some companies are lrft in private ownership but they are all in reality, heavily controlled by the state, who dictate what is produced, how much is produced, and prices, and control all the supply lines and the means of production.

The owners are effectively relegated to being state controlled managers of the companies they 'own'...


Razz

More total lies from self-declared "genius" Tommy Monk..

Completely ignoring both economic and political definitions, here we see Tommy arrogantly inventing his own new and fake idiot's definition for the term "fascism"..

Priceless !

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Post by Maddog on Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:45 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:


Socialism requires central planning.  That planning has fo be enforced.  

No doubt many other systems use force too.

Arrow

Every economic system needs some degree of "central" planning...

The USA has it's central planning in Washington; Britain in Westminster;  Oz in Canberra..

Without any federal governance and some degree of 'overwatch', a purely "laissez faire" free market/'supply side' economy will not survive and prosper,  as cartels and corporatist wolves form their own armies and simply take what they want.

Once again, you continually refuse to recognise the essential differences between autocratic communist, fascist and monarchist dictatorships on one side, and the genuinely democratic socialist and "mixed" economies that do exist..

Ask yourself, also, why no "Libertarian" -focused government has ever survived once it has feached a certain 'critical mass' in size  --  eventually either reverting to a more mainstream system, or falling into some money-focused autocracy or oligarchy...

Capitalist systems have very little central planning.

Washington does not tell oil companies how many wells to drill, or how much oil to produce.

It doesn't tell Detroit, what kind of car or how many to produce.

Socialist economies do. Central planning is a key component.

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:06 pm

Capitalist systems tend toward monopolization.  A point I have made plain, above.

Such monopolization itself tends toward central planning...only, it is not for the benefit of the common weal, but the profit of increasingly fewer individuals.

Profit, as a centralizing theme, has two disbenefits: First, it consumes all of the resources and hoards them into the pockets of the few, and wealthy.  Look at the termination benefits that are given to CEO's and other capitalists, while the common worker gets a box of candy if anything.  As such, capitalism is eventually anti-democratic, as we are seeing with Donald Trump.

Second, capitalism ignores, even attacks, anything that isn't profitable...witness the current crop of capitalists denying proven evidence of climate change.  A few short decades ago, tobacco company executives took to Congress and denied that cigarettes were addictive.  There are questions of common weal that go beyond the parochial economics of an industry, yet capitalism does everything it can to distort and suppress them, particularly when they cut into profits (Oil, Tobacco, etc.).

So, yes, there is central planning with capitalism. It is utterly without pretense of public concern. If special interests co-op the social well-being in socialist systems, capitalism doesn't even bother...it unabashedly begins by running off with it in the first place.

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:08 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Arrow

Every economic system needs some degree of "central" planning...

The USA has it's central planning in Washington; Britain in Westminster;  Oz in Canberra..

Without any federal governance and some degree of 'overwatch', a purely "laissez faire" free market/'supply side' economy will not survive and prosper,  as cartels and corporatist wolves form their own armies and simply take what they want.

Once again, you continually refuse to recognise the essential differences between autocratic communist, fascist and monarchist dictatorships on one side, and the genuinely democratic socialist and "mixed" economies that do exist..

Ask yourself, also, why no "Libertarian" -focused government has ever survived once it has feached a certain 'critical mass' in size  --  eventually either reverting to a more mainstream system, or falling into some money-focused autocracy or oligarchy...

Capitalist systems have very little central planning.

Washington does not tell oil companies how many wells to drill, or how much oil to produce.

It doesn't tell Detroit, what kind of car or how many to produce.

Socialist economies do. Central planning is a key component.  

Idea

Genuinely 'democratic' socialist-style mixed economies don't go that far either, (just look at some of the previous governments in "mixed" economies such as Denmark, Sweden, France, Canada, Australia, NZ, where they put in place public health and education systems superior to anything ever seen in the USA..).

Autocratic Communist and Fascist states both do --  that means both far left-wing and right-wing systems will be heavy on "central planning".


Just because various tyrannies call themselves "socialist democratic republics" or a "peoples' republic" doesn't necessarily make them any of those things --  as clearly seen with North Korea, Maoist China, East Germany under the Soviets, or on the other side in Nazi Germany ("central planning" was big in Germany, Italy and Japan back then..).

When I see the disaster in Venezuela repeatedly miscast as a "failed 'socialist experiment" instead  of the autocratic military dictatorship that it is, I look to see who it is peddling that corporatist/"free market" bullshit  --   using a broken faux_'socialist' state as an example to badmouth all socialist institutions (including healthcare, education, public & workplace safety, environmental protections, police and military..), while pushing their usual line that "big business is good --  workers are no-good bludgers;  oil and coal is good --  science is bad;  ignorance is good --  education is bad."


As for the USA itself --  with the American military complex, right there you are looking at the largest "socialist" entity that has ever been created in modern times --  and with the American Tax System to underwrite it..

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Post by Maddog on Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:10 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Capitalist systems have very little central planning.

Washington does not tell oil companies how many wells to drill, or how much oil to produce.

It doesn't tell Detroit, what kind of car or how many to produce.

Socialist economies do. Central planning is a key component.  

Idea

Genuinely 'democratic' socialist-style mixed economies don't go that far either, (just look at some of the previous governments in "mixed" economies such as Denmark, Sweden, France, Canada, Australia, NZ, where they put in place public health and education systems superior to anything ever seen in the USA..).

Autocratic Communist and Fascist states both do --  that means both far left-wing and right-wing systems will be heavy on "central planning".


Just because various tyrannies call themselves "socialist democratic republics" or a "peoples' republic" doesn't necessarily make them any of those things --  as clearly seen with North Korea, Maoist China, East Germany under the Soviets, or on the other side in Nazi Germany ("central planning" was big in Germany, Italy and Japan back then..).

When I see the disaster in Venezuela repeatedly miscast as a "failed 'socialist experiment" instead  of the autocratic military dictatorship that it is, I look to see who it is peddling that corporatist/"free market" bullshit  --   using a broken faux_'socialist' state as an example to badmouth all socialist institutions (including healthcare, education, public & workplace safety, environmental protections, police and military..), while pushing their usual line that "big business is good --  workers are no-good bludgers;  oil and coal is good --  science is bad;  ignorance is good --  education is bad."


As for the USA itself --  with the American military complex, right there you are looking at the largest "socialist" entity that has ever been created in modern times --  and with the American Tax System to underwrite it..


Denmark, Sweden, France, Canada, Australia, NZ, are free market capitalist countries. Socialism requires social control of the means of production with central planning. Like Venezuela.  


Some countries have more taxation and entitlements than others.  

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The Lunacy of How the Far Left Support the Nightmare of Socialism In Venezula Empty Re: The Lunacy of How the Far Left Support the Nightmare of Socialism In Venezula

Post by Original Quill on Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:58 pm

Maddog wrote:Denmark, Sweden, France, Canada, Australia, NZ, are free market capitalist countries. Socialism requires social control of the means of production with central planning. Like Venezuela.  

Some countries have more taxation and entitlements than others.  

Socialism doesn't require anything, except that the means (tools) of production be socially owned and controlled.

Obviously that requires some sort of joint decision-making, which ipso facto becomes a council or governing body.  Joint decision-making has been with us since the beginning of time.  The decisions of this body inevitably constitute some sort of program, which is conceived of as "central planning".  Here in the US we speak of it as, simply, "policy".

There has never been a nation that is purely socialist.  There are many nations that provide certain fundamental services through socialist means.  The United States military is probably one of the largest purely socialist organizations, although even here there have been private incursions.  Police, fire protection, ambulance services are among other organizations that are socialized.

The feeling seems to be, the closer and dearer the service--ie, the more related to immediate, critical need--the less willing the powers-that-be are to give it away.  There's an old saying that seems to express this: If you want to be sure it gets done, do it yourself.

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The Lunacy of How the Far Left Support the Nightmare of Socialism In Venezula Empty Re: The Lunacy of How the Far Left Support the Nightmare of Socialism In Venezula

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:15 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Idea

Genuinely 'democratic' socialist-style mixed economies don't go that far either, (just look at some of the previous governments in "mixed" economies such as Denmark, Sweden, France, Canada, Australia, NZ, where they put in place public health and education systems superior to anything ever seen in the USA..).

Autocratic Communist and Fascist states both do --  that means both far left-wing and right-wing systems will be heavy on "central planning".


Just because various tyrannies call themselves "socialist democratic republics" or a "peoples' republic" doesn't necessarily make them any of those things --  as clearly seen with North Korea, Maoist China, East Germany under the Soviets, or on the other side in Nazi Germany ("central planning" was big in Germany, Italy and Japan back then..).

When I see the disaster in Venezuela repeatedly miscast as a "failed 'socialist experiment" instead  of the autocratic military dictatorship that it is, I look to see who it is peddling that corporatist/"free market" bullshit  --   using a broken faux_'socialist' state as an example to badmouth all socialist institutions (including healthcare, education, public & workplace safety, environmental protections, police and military..), while pushing their usual line that "big business is good --  workers are no-good bludgers;  oil and coal is good --  science is bad;  ignorance is good --  education is bad."


As for the USA itself --  with the American military complex, right there you are looking at the largest "socialist" entity that has ever been created in modern times --  and with the American Tax System to underwrite it..


Denmark, Sweden, France, Canada, Australia, NZ, are free market capitalist countries. Socialism requires social control of the means of production with central planning. Like Venezuela.  


Some countries have more taxation and entitlements than others.  

Rolling Eyes

Wrong again, Dopeydawg...

You keep on conflating socialism with communism..

Didn't you study Economics at school ???

And Venezuela is an autocracy backed by the mlitary -- just as far from a genuine democratic socialist state as any other system..

Anybody who genuinely believes that Oz, NZ, Sweden, Denmark, France et al are really "free market" economies should try conducting business down here while ignoring all relevant laws and regulations...

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