Mums Protest Outside Birmingham School For 'Promoting Homosexuality' To Kids

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Post by phildidge on Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:43 pm

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A group of around 20 parents are threatening to remove their children from a primary school with a gay assistant head teacher, after claiming it is “over-promoting LGBT movements”.

Parkfield Community School in Saltley, Birmingham, has been criticised by some parents for piloting a programme called No Outsiders, run by Andrew Moffat MBE, which challenges discrimination, including homophobia, in schools.

Books being read as part of the programme at the 770-pupil school, where 23 nationalities are represented, include Mommy, Mama and Me and King & King – stories about same-sex relationships and marriages.

But furious mum-of-three Fatima Shah has already taken her 10-year-old daughter out of school in protest, and has started a petition to halt the lessons.

She told HuffPost UK: “It’s inappropriate, totally wrong. Children are being told it’s OK to be gay yet 98% of children at this school are Muslim. It’s a Muslim community.

“I’ve taken my daughter out and other parents have too. I’ve been threatened with a fine and told my daughter will be removed from the school register if I continue but I have no choice.”

In 2016 Parkfield Community school was awarded Outstanding status by Ofsted and the No Outsiders scheme was highlighted as a key strength. A year later, Moffat was awarded an MBE for services to equality and diversity in education.

But Shad said Moffat’s programme is against her Islamic beliefs. “My daughter  came home and told me am I OK to be a boy? It’s confusing children about sexuality.”

Shah said she would be keeping her daughter at home until “something is done”. The mother said she had been paying for £20-per-hour home tuition instead.

While Shah is against the programme at Parkfield, the 29-year-old insists “gay people should be treated with mutual respect”.

She added: “We believe in fundamental British values and believe gay people should be treated with mutual respect and without prejudice or discrimination just like any other human being.


https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/mums-protest-outside-school-for-promoting-homosexuality-to-their-kids_uk_5c4f0fb0e4b0e1872d45e941

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/councillor-backs-Muslim-mums-who-15736394

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Post by Eilzel on Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:05 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:I know this article is about the pro homo propaganda program in America... but still relevant...


https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15118/



But how are the books promoting anything?

And how would portrayal be different from promotion?


Don't play dumb... you know very well...

I actually don't.

Promoting would be all like 'you should be gay!' or 'gay is best!' which these books do not do.

So care to explain your understanding?

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Post by eddie on Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:35 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Eilzel wrote:Eddie: "Have I done anything wrong as a parent?"

I'm not in a position to know, and I'm certainly not a judge of that...


Didge: "Should children with single parents be put in care?"

Don't be ridiculous!


Eilzel: "Do children only ask about things that are wrong?"

No.


Gelico: "Wouldn't it be confusing to only be taught that a mother and father is right if that is not what they have?"

For the purposes of sex education, they should only be taught that the reproductive system works between a mother and a father.


Just a small selection of the questions tommy has completely avoided answering...


Happy now?


Yes I’m happy you’ve answered.

Let me ask you something else: what should a parent say when a child asks “What does gay mean?” ?

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Post by Jules on Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:03 pm

The aversion towards homosexuality shown by the parents is not likely to be due to homophobia.

In 21st century Europe homosexuality is no big deal - and rightly so.

It's more likely that the parents just want a simpler, more straightforward life for their kids when they grow up.

Even gays themselves, some of them say they hope their (adopted or surrogate) offspring turn out straight.

Statistically, some of the kids of these protesting parents will defo be gay, no matter what. You cannot fight nature.  I hope such kids won't feel any rejection by the parents.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:27 pm

eddie wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Yes I’m happy you’ve answered.

Let me ask you something else: what should a parent say when a child asks “What does gay mean?” ?


All depends how old the child is and in what context they have heard the word being used.



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Post by eddie on Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:33 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
eddie wrote:


Yes I’m happy you’ve answered.

Let me ask you something else: what should a parent say when a child asks “What does gay mean?” ?


All depends how old the child is and in what context they have heard the word being used.



That’s fair enough. Well, my daughter is seven and as I’ve said, two close family members are gay. It came up and she asked what gay meant. So I told her.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:29 pm

eddie wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


All depends how old the child is and in what context they have heard the word being used.



That’s fair enough. Well, my daughter is seven and as I’ve said, two close family members are gay. It came up and she asked what gay meant. So I told her.


It's entirely up to you how you parent your child... and nothing to do with me... and nothing to do with the OP...


It only came up on this thread because Ben volunteered some information about it, and then seemed to contradict himself in subsequent posts about the circumstances...


Let me just be clear here... I don't doubt for a moment that you are a great parent, and I am not criticising or judging you in any way!


Firstly because it's really none of my business... secondly because I'm neither arrogant enough or expert enough to take any sort of critical or judgemental position over any of it... and thirdly because I wouldn't be brave enough to even dare try!!!


lol!

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Post by eddie on Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:38 pm

Tommy, I don’t for one moment think you’re criticising me, I know you well enough by now and you also know me well enough to know that I am always open to honest discussion and I’d never take offence. So don’t worry, please. I’m not easily offended to be honest and also secure enough to know that my children are pretty decent little humans.

But I do want to ask you something. Are you against gay relationships because of a religious belief or something else? I may have asked you before and apologies if I have.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:48 pm

And Tommy, if my posts seemed contradictory, maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I do think if you'd given me the benefit of the doubt it would all have made sense to you.

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Post by HoratioTarr on Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:57 pm

She told HuffPost UK: “It’s inappropriate, totally wrong. Children are being told it’s OK to be gay yet 98% of children at this school are Muslim. It’s a Muslim community.

what? there are no gay Muslims?
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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:14 pm

eddie wrote:Tommy, I don’t for one moment think you’re criticising me, I know you well enough by now and you also know me well enough to know that I am always open to honest discussion and I’d never take offence. So don’t worry, please. I’m not easily offended to be honest and also secure enough to know that my children are pretty decent little humans.

But I do want to ask you something. Are you against gay relationships because of a religious belief or something else? I may have asked you before and apologies if I have.


Eddie... I've answered this before...


I'm not a follower of any organised religion... and I'm not against gays/lesbians per se... it's up to them what they want to do behind closed doors... and I am totally opposed to any persecution/hostility towards them... I treat all people as I find them... and believe it or not, i do actually know people who are gay/lesbian, and have never cared in the slightest about whatever their sexual preference might be...


I don't let it define what I think of a person... and it shouldn't be what they let define them as people either... it's their own personal business...!


Now... having said that... I also think that it is clearly not the normal and natural way of things... and the state should not be in any way trying to legitimise it as being so or try to force people to have to believe it is normal/natural/right either... and that includes the fact that it should not be being taught to children in schools in any way that tries to do that either...!

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Post by Eilzel on Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:46 pm

I'm still interested to know how the books 'promote' homosexuality, tommy.

Does Kes promote raising birds?
Does Snow White promote running away from home?
Does Robin Hood prompte robbing the rich?
Do 99% of books promote heterosexuality?

You can't just say a book promotes something and expect that to be taken as fact.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:28 am

Tommy Monk wrote:The books include...


King and king
And tango makes 3
Heather has 2 mommies
Mommy, mama and me
Daddy, papa and me
My princess boy


Look them up and see...


And you can also see how children will be affected if they are force fed loads of these types of books...!




The agenda of these type of books is blatantly obvious!!!


By the time a young child reaches school, they will already have an understanding that it is normal (for example) for "a mummy bear and a daddy bear to have a baby bear"... or for "a mummy bird and a daddy bird to have a baby bird" etc...


As well as the fact that huge numbers of very young children will have younger siblings, and will have clear fundamental knowledge that the mothers belly got bigger and bigger with the baby inside and not only that that is where baby's come from but will also have been told that "Daddy helped mummy to put it there to look after it" etc...


Overwhelming vast majority of young children, by the time they reach school, have a basic fundamental sort of knowledge of the normal being that there is a "mummy and a daddy and a baby" etc...


There is absolutely nothing wrong with this because it is absolutely the basic fundamental right and normal way of things... and it is right for young children to be allowed to carry on thinking this way as it is not only the right and normal way of things, but they are also more than happy to grow up through their early years with this fundamental knowledge ...!


There is absolutely no reason to start bombarding them with pro homo propaganda agenda based books at a young age, and which will only create confusion for them and which will therefore only be unnecessarily disturbing for them, and therefore detrimental to their wellbeing...!


I maintain my view that the child's best interests are paramount... and it is wrong to be forcing politically driven pro homo propaganda onto the delicate minds of young children!!!



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Post by Eilzel on Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:45 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:The books include...


King and king
And tango makes 3
Heather has 2 mommies
Mommy, mama and me
Daddy, papa and me
My princess boy


Look them up and see...


And you can also see how children will be affected if they are force fed loads of these types of books...!




The agenda of these type of books is blatantly obvious!!!


By the time a young child reaches school, they will already have an understanding that it is normal (for example) for "a mummy bear and a daddy bear to have a baby bear"... or for "a mummy bird and a daddy bird to have a baby bird" etc...


As well as the fact that huge numbers of very young children will have younger siblings, and will have clear fundamental knowledge that the mothers belly got bigger and bigger with the baby inside and not only that that is where baby's come from but will also have been told that "Daddy helped mummy to put it there to look after it" etc...


Overwhelming vast majority of young children, by the time they reach school, have a basic fundamental sort of knowledge of the normal being that there is a "mummy and a daddy and a baby" etc...


There is absolutely nothing wrong with this because it is absolutely the basic fundamental right and normal way of things... and it is right for young children to be allowed to carry on thinking this way as it is not only the right and normal way of things, but they are also more than happy to grow up through their early years with this fundamental knowledge ...!


There is absolutely no reason to start bombarding them with pro homo propaganda agenda based books at a young age, and which will only create confusion for them and which will therefore only be unnecessarily disturbing for them, and therefore detrimental to their wellbeing...!


I maintain my view that the child's best interests are paramount... and it is wrong to be forcing politically driven pro homo propaganda onto the delicate minds of young children!!!



I agree with your first 4 paragraphs. But your last two are just hyperbolic rantings. A handful of books in the multitude of books a child reads at school will not 'confuse' them (like no child was ever confused by the unusual parent/child situations in Snow White or Cinderella).

They aren't 'bombarded', that is just hysterical claptrap from someone who's full of it. A small % of their reading will touch on the fact some people are in same sex relationships.

I agree that the upbringing of children is paramount. That INCLUDES raising awareness of different types of people, so they are more accepting than people like yourself, for instance. AND it includes a positive representation for children, many of whom may grow up LGBT themselves and are NOT helped by being constantly force fed the 'idea' that only heteronormative couplings are 'normal, natural and right' Rolling Eyes

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:05 am



These will be books that they will have read to them by the teacher during the designated sit down reading time sessions called "book corner" or "reading time" etc...


And young children should not be having any politically motivated and/or pro homo propaganda being targeted at them in such an environment...!


Children will have plenty of opportunities to be more aware about such things as they go through growing up and into their older teen years and as they grow up even further into their late teens and early twenties...!


Not for young children to be bombarded with such agenda based propaganda by schools on the behest of politically correct agenda driven numpties!!!



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Post by Eilzel on Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:38 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

These will be books that they will have read to them by the teacher during the designated sit down reading time sessions called "book corner" or "reading time" etc...


And young children should not be having any politically motivated and/or pro homo propaganda being targeted at them in such an environment...!


Children will have plenty of opportunities to be more aware about such things as they go through growing up and into their older teen years and as they grow up even further into their late teens and early twenties...!


Not for young children to be bombarded with such agenda based propaganda by schools on the behest of politically correct agenda driven numpties!!!



Again, not bombarded. Define bombarded, if correct you'll realise how stupid that sounds.

In fact your whole post reads like the hysterical ravings of a BNP leaflet.

Sure "bombared with agenda based pro homo propaganda" SOUNDS really sinister, BUT it actually is meaningless and just shows a detachment from reality.

They aren't 'bombarded'.
Most teachers don't have an 'agenda' other than teaching children to be imaginative, knowledgeable and decent people.

So stop thinking that stringing adjectives and nouns into these catchy sounding wicked plans actually helps you. It doesn't.

Finally, you obviously don't care for ANY children than are not what YOU consider 'normal'.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:44 pm

Everyone knows books can’t turn you gay.

Sitting next to one does. Mums Protest Outside Birmingham School For 'Promoting Homosexuality' To Kids - Page 5 1069003512

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:49 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Children will have plenty of opportunities to be more aware about such things as they go through growing up and into their older teen years and as they grow up even further into their late teens and early twenties...!

So, what is all the fuss about?  The school promotes a class on tolerance.  'Open your mind', is the message.  Only the intolerant would oppose that!

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Post by nicko on Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:52 pm

Leave kids to be kids, when they're old enough they'll make their own minds up, without any help from "Teachers" !
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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:56 pm

Green from me nicko!



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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:57 pm

nicko wrote:Leave kids to be kids, when they're old enough they'll make their own minds up,   without any help from "Teachers" !

Right..you say it. They teach it...in a class about inclusion.

I just don't understand what message those parents are upset about...unless they are upset that they cant exclude others.

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:14 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Green from me nicko!



Yeah bur you don't actually care about kids.

You don't care about gay kids; you don't care about kids who might turn out to be trans; you don't care about kids with extremely religious parents.

You only care about kids who are what YOU consider to be normal.

And you do not understand the words 'bombard' or 'propaganda'.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:28 pm



Targeting young children with politically motivated agenda based propaganda is deeply sinister...!


Leave the children to be children, and free from any such manipulation!!!



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Post by Eilzel on Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:31 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Targeting young children with politically motivated agenda based propaganda is deeply sinister...!


Leave the children to be children, and free from any such manipulation!!!



How is it sinister if it aims at helping on set of kids feel accepted and another group of kids be open minded?

YOU just don't like it because YOU don't like the idea of people being gay.

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:34 pm

Honestly tommy you prattle on about sinister and bombarding but these are just meaningless words thrown without explanation.

So you think there is an agenda. Tell us exactly what YOU think the agenda is aiming to DO.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:51 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

Targeting young children with politically motivated agenda based propaganda is deeply sinister...!


Leave the children to be children, and free from any such manipulation!!!

Sooo...no education at all?  Or just the education that you want?

You could carry this to extremes and say hands off to mummy and daddy, too.  No reading, writing and 'rithmatic, and fer sure ho history, no social studies and nothing even close to civics.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:30 am

Eilzel wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Targeting young children with politically motivated agenda based propaganda is deeply sinister...!


Leave the children to be children, and free from any such manipulation!!!



How is it sinister if it aims at helping on set of kids feel accepted and another group of kids be open minded?

YOU just don't like it because YOU don't like the idea of people being gay.


I don't care about how 'well intentioned' you claim it is...


The targeting of young children with any kind of politically motivated agenda based propaganda is fundamentally wrong!


I'm sure the Nazis thought they were 'well intentioned' when they were bombarding young children with their agenda based propaganda too...!


But as far as I'm concerned... I don't care what the agenda is or how well intentioned/justified anyone tries to claim it is... IT IS WRONG TO TRY TO TARGET ANY YOUNG CHILDREN WITH ANY TYPE OF MANIPULATIVE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED PROPAGANDA FOR ANY AGENDA!!!



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Post by Eilzel on Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:36 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

Targeting young children with politically motivated agenda based propaganda is deeply sinister...!


Leave the children to be children, and free from any such manipulation!!!



How is it sinister if it aims at helping on set of kids feel accepted and another group of kids be open minded?

YOU just don't like it because YOU don't like the idea of people being gay.


I don't care about how 'well intentioned' you claim it is...


The targeting of young children with any kind of politically motivated agenda based propaganda is fundamentally wrong!


I'm sure the Nazis thought they were 'well intentioned' when they were bombarding young children with their agenda based propaganda too...!


But as far as I'm concerned... I don't care what the agenda is or how well intentioned/justified anyone tries to claim it is... IT IS WRONG TO TRY TO TARGET ANY YOUNG CHILDREN WITH ANY TYPE OF MANIPULATIVE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED PROPAGANDA FOR ANY AGENDA!!!



So we should:

Stop teaching them about global warming?
Stop teaching them to recycle?
Stop teaching them about different cultures?
Stop teaching them about ALL religions?
Stop teaching them to protect the environment?

Everything is an agenda, ultimately, as Quill already mentioned above.

Of course, you think this one is extra special, but YOU cannot articulate why.

So it's a fail, I'm afraid. If you cannot express WHAT the sinister agenda IS, then we can only assume there isn't one.

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Post by Guest on Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:43 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

Targeting young children with politically motivated agenda based propaganda is deeply sinister...!


Leave the children to be children, and free from any such manipulation!!!



what agenda?

what are they promoting exactly?

tolerance? understanding? acceptance? compassion?

sinister indeed,,,,

Evil or Very Mad

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:04 am

We are talking about very young primary school children here!!!


Young children between the ages of 5 to 11 don't need any of that!!!


They need to be taught about letters and words and how to read and write... taught about numbers and how to do basic adding up and subtracting etc... and they need to have lots of play time and games etc... and should be able to be doing these things in a safe/comfortable environment where they are allowed to grow and develop at their own speed and in their own way and establish their own thoughts and identity... free from any type of manipulative politically motivated agenda based propaganda!!!



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Post by Guest on Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:10 am

Tommy Monk wrote:We are talking about very young primary school children here!!!


Young children between the ages of 5 to 11 don't need any of that!!!


They need to be taught about letters and words and how to read and write... taught about numbers and how to do basic adding up and subtracting etc... and they need to have lots of play time and games etc... and should be able to be doing these things in a safe/comfortable environment where they are allowed to grow and develop at their own speed and in their own way and establish their own thoughts and identity... free from any type of manipulative politically motivated agenda based propaganda!!!




yes, and? they already do all that

so, what's the agenda?

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:27 am

gelico wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:We are talking about very young primary school children here!!!


Young children between the ages of 5 to 11 don't need any of that!!!


They need to be taught about letters and words and how to read and write... taught about numbers and how to do basic adding up and subtracting etc... and they need to have lots of play time and games etc... and should be able to be doing these things in a safe/comfortable environment where they are allowed to grow and develop at their own speed and in their own way and establish their own thoughts and identity... free from any type of manipulative politically motivated agenda based propaganda!!!




yes, and?  they already do all that

so, what's the agenda?


Is that all that is happening!?


Or are young children also being deliberately targeted with and subjected to any other types of manipulative politically motivated agenda based propaganda!?




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Post by Eilzel on Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:52 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
gelico wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:We are talking about very young primary school children here!!!


Young children between the ages of 5 to 11 don't need any of that!!!


They need to be taught about letters and words and how to read and write... taught about numbers and how to do basic adding up and subtracting etc... and they need to have lots of play time and games etc... and should be able to be doing these things in a safe/comfortable environment where they are allowed to grow and develop at their own speed and in their own way and establish their own thoughts and identity... free from any type of manipulative politically motivated agenda based propaganda!!!




yes, and?  they already do all that

so, what's the agenda?


Is that all that is happening!?


Or are young children also being deliberately targeted with and subjected to any other types of manipulative politically motivated agenda based propaganda!?




FFS. What's the agenda?

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Post by Syl on Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:21 pm

If these books were teaching acceptance of what is wrong in our society, bullying and ostracizing minorities, that would be agenda driven.

As far as I can see they are teaching the opposite of that, just highlighting in a way 5 to 8 year olds can understand, that not all people are the same.

I remember when my son was growing up, one boy was decidedly different from the rest in his class, very feminine and very soft, the fact he was also overweight made him a target for other kids.
Maybe if those books had been around then he would have had a far better childhood.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:35 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:We are talking about very young primary school children here!!!

Young children between the ages of 5 to 11 don't need any of that!!!

Tommy, where did you learn this about children between the ages of 5 to 11?

Everything we hear over in the US, is that children of that age should be encouraged to talk, ask questions, satisfy their curiosity...and most of all, that we as adults and parents, should talk as much as possible to children, and satisfy that curiosity.

Tommy Monk wrote:They need to be taught about letters and words and how to read and write... taught about numbers and how to do basic adding up and subtracting etc... and they need to have lots of play time and games etc... and should be able to be doing these things in a safe/comfortable environment where they are allowed to grow and develop at their own speed and in their own way and establish their own thoughts and identity... free from any type of manipulative politically motivated agenda based propaganda!!!

"Read and write", but have nothing to talk about? "Adding [what?] up and subtracting?" "Lots of play time and games etc..." but no one to play with? What you're suggesting is, lots of technical learning, but no human interaction...nowhere or nobody to use your new found proficiency.

It seems to me that learning interactive skills with others would be crucial to your agenda. And most important to those interactive skills is to learn not to exclude others...to include as many as you can, because each 'other' person is a learning experience onto him or herself. Some speak different languages. Some come from different cultures. Some eat different foods (pasta = Italian = mmm, good). Learning to interact and get along with others is paramount to employing those dry technical skills. Inclusion is crucial.

So, now, to Les's question: What the fook is your real agenda, that you come down so heavily on not learning about inclusion?


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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:44 pm

What are you waffling about?


Classes are full of children... and normally a hard job to get them to stop talking...!



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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:52 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:What are you waffling about?


Classes are full of children... and normally a hard job to get them to stop talking...!

Sooo...your non-inclusion agenda is unsuccessful?  Good.  Wink

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:07 pm

You might think that telling young children that two mummies or two dad's can make a baby and it is quite normal and natural... all in the name of equality and inclusion... but this will only cause them confusion and giving them the wrong information...



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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:18 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:You might think that telling young children that two mummies or two dad's can make a baby and it is quite normal and natural... all in the name of equality and inclusion... but this will only cause them confusion and giving them the wrong information...

It's not about physiology, tommy. It's about acceptance. Your ideology is exclusion, which over the centuries has led to nothing but conflict and troubles.

As Einstein said, "You'll never solve problems by using the same thinking you created them with."


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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:25 pm



I don't care about how 'well intentioned' you claim it is...


The targeting of young children with any kind of politically motivated agenda based propaganda is fundamentally wrong!


I'm sure the Nazis thought they were 'well intentioned' when they were bombarding young children with their agenda based propaganda too...!


But as far as I'm concerned... I don't care what the agenda is or how well intentioned/justified anyone tries to claim it is... IT IS WRONG TO TRY TO TARGET ANY YOUNG CHILDREN WITH ANY TYPE OF MANIPULATIVE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED PROPAGANDA FOR ANY AGENDA!!!

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:33 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:The targeting of young children with any kind of politically motivated agenda based propaganda is fundamentally wrong!

It's not "politically motivated".

What brings politics into the picture, is your obverse interpretation: that certain people ought to be excluded.

Only when you contemplate exclusion do you get down to the politics of who? That gets you to race and ethnicity.

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Post by eddie on Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:37 pm

nicko wrote:Leave kids to be kids, when they're old enough they'll make their own minds up,   without any help from "Teachers" !

They are being left to “be kids”. Just because you explain something to a child or they are aware of the way other people live doesn’t mean that they are being brainwashed.

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Post by phildidge on Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:51 pm

nicko wrote:Leave kids to be kids, when they're old enough they'll make their own minds up,   without any help from "Teachers" !

So parents should never teach children anything then mate?

How will they ever learn anything then?

If by such a method, you must advocate doing away with schools?

What is the point of any education?

Now i doubt that is even Tommy's argument, as he would by such a stance. Not have the intellect or level of understanding he has today, without an education or influence from others. So why does he chose to except the influence and education he had? Yet not one that simple teaches kids to learn inclusion.. If he was taught a view to exlude, is then not the teaching he learnt, also an agenda?

As he did not think people should be excluded, he was taught by bigoted people to exclude others.

Why has he never challenged that perception he was taught?

Babies are born without prejudice and yet Tommy is happy to allow prejudiced to be taught and yet not inclusion

He thus contraticts himself and its him pushing the agenda here. As babies are already from birth are inclusive


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Post by eddie on Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:57 pm

Thor wrote:
nicko wrote:Leave kids to be kids, when they're old enough they'll make their own minds up,   without any help from "Teachers" !

So parents should never teach children anything then mate?

How will they ever learn anything then?

If by such a method, you must advocate doing away with schools?

What is the point of any education?

Now i doubt that is even Tommy's argument, as he would by such a stance. Not have the intellect or level of understanding he has today, without an education or influence from others. So why does he chose to except the influence and education he had? Yet not one that simple teaches kids to learn inclusion.. If he was taught a view to exlude, is then not the teaching he learnt, also an agenda?

Why has he never challenged that perception he was taught?

Good God. I talk to my kids so openly (obviously according to age, I don’t tell my daughter about sex because she’s only seven) but I’m honest and as unbiased and casual as I can be about things like race, sexuality and politics (in my son’s case).
I couldn’t imagine saying to them “We don’t discuss such matters in this house!”

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Post by phildidge on Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:03 pm

eddie wrote:
Thor wrote:

So parents should never teach children anything then mate?

How will they ever learn anything then?

If by such a method, you must advocate doing away with schools?

What is the point of any education?

Now i doubt that is even Tommy's argument, as he would by such a stance. Not have the intellect or level of understanding he has today, without an education or influence from others. So why does he chose to except the influence and education he had? Yet not one that simple teaches kids to learn inclusion.. If he was taught a view to exlude, is then not the teaching he learnt, also an agenda?

Why has he never challenged that perception he was taught?

Good God. I talk to my kids so openly (obviously according to age, I don’t tell my daughter about sex because she’s only seven) but I’m honest and as unbiased and casual as I can be about things like race, sexuality and politics (in my son’s case).
I couldn’t imagine saying to them “We don’t discuss such matters in this house!”

Yet there is the answer.

In Tommy's house these issues were not talked about and only taught a way that was exclusive

Children mainly have a sense of wha tis right or wrong based on what is taught. Somestimes they have to learn for themselves via phsyical pain.  
                               
IE, its never good, to stick your hands in fire. It will cause someone pain

The point is, Tommy, contradicts himself. Yet even this can be wrong based on bigotry. Look at ISIS, that think murdering people is righteous. Tommy falls into this aspect of poor teaching. In other words he is happy to be taught views himself growing up, which effect the well being and quality of others. As long as it does no effect himself          

He has no objection to what he was taught in regards to exclsuion and bigotry. Which by his reasoning would be political and agenda.

Hence he is a complete hypocrite.

He simple wants to shut down discussion and only have his views aired and taught.

IT means he is Totalitarian and against different views, that may challenge his. He wants them shut down.

If he is democratic, why should he fear, views taught on inclusion?

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Post by eddie on Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:16 pm

I think Tommy has a hard time thinking outside the box he put himself in.
He’s not a bad guy, just misguided.

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Post by phildidge on Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:20 pm

eddie wrote:I think Tommy has a hard time thinking outside the box he put himself in.
He’s not a bad guy, just misguided.

At least you are open to your children wanting to learn Eddie

Tommy is the complete opposite in this regards

I am sure if something was taught at school, you found different to your views.

You would still talk openly and honestly about this, whilst listening to your childrens views.

It means you are very open to discussion.

Tommy is a closed book sadly

So he may well be misguided, but if he was open to being wrong. As I have been at times in life. Being misguided does not come even into play. Its about being open to the fact we can all be wrong.

That does not even quantify in Tommys mindset.....

If he was open to being wrong, he would never mind a view to teach kids being inclusive. As this would mean they would also be inclusive to people as bigoted as himself, even if they do not agree with him. He wants to deny children the chance to learn and being open. He would rather they only learn his forms and beliefs into society. Which is how religious and political extremists, want kids wanting to learn in life. They do not want them to have any other ideas, that many challenge their ideas.

What he certainly has not argued, is whay teaching people to be inclusive in school, is somehow wrong?

I am all ears on that

As we should all be able to challenge beliefs, when we disagree.

He simple wants to shut down dicussions on this as seen

Which is the point. Anything taught, has to have the ability to have people question this and even challenge this.

Tommy wants to shut down any view to teach, of views, he does not like. That is not being open at all/ He simple wants to shut down discussion, he does not like.

As why else would he be against this being taught in school?

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Post by eddie on Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:40 pm

I agree with all your points on this. I think Tommy may be an old school thinker.

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:31 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

I don't care about how 'well intentioned' you claim it is...


The targeting of young children with any kind of politically motivated agenda based propaganda is fundamentally wrong!


I'm sure the Nazis thought they were 'well intentioned' when they were bombarding young children with their agenda based propaganda too...!


But as far as I'm concerned... I don't care what the agenda is or how well intentioned/justified anyone tries to claim it is... IT IS WRONG TO TRY TO TARGET ANY YOUNG CHILDREN WITH ANY TYPE OF MANIPULATIVE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED PROPAGANDA FOR ANY AGENDA!!!

You keep repeating that line. Are you a stuck record, tommy?

What is the agenda?

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:36 pm

eddie wrote:I think Tommy has a hard time thinking outside the box he put himself in.
He’s not a bad guy, just misguided.

Misguided. Many misguided people have been led to doing bad things. Whether he's a bad guy or not is really a matter of perspective.

I know we agree 100% of this topic Eds, and your kids are awesome, a credit to you for sure; but as a gay man thinking of the effects (on kids) of excluding gay existence from education, tommy is very much a bad guy. He obviously doesn't see it that way, he doesn't see the harm in his views, but then such people rarely do.

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Speaker of the House

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Mums Protest Outside Birmingham School For 'Promoting Homosexuality' To Kids - Page 5 Empty Re: Mums Protest Outside Birmingham School For 'Promoting Homosexuality' To Kids

Post by Original Quill on Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:35 am

I don't like the "outside the box" thesis, nor do I write it off as misguided. Many a German, during the Nazi rising, just didn't want to be bothered by what was going on. Once the radical ideas became normalized, just as Trump is normalizing things today, they didn't want to bothered...they also didn't want to think outside the box, or think at all.

I'm not thinking tommy is a Nazi, but I'm worried about the 'go along' philosophy once immoral thoughts get normalized.

_________________
“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
Original Quill
Original Quill

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