Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

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Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Maddog on Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:50 pm

“Has there ever been a time in the world’s history when people were more sure of their opinions?” asks Jim Ferrell of the Arbinger Insitute.

Ferrell observes, “We become set in our opinions precisely because we have lost sight of the fact that they are merely opinions…our culture is suffering from what one might call ‘opinion creep’—the elevation of unsupported thoughts to the status of opinions and opinions to convictions.”

We don’t know how to have civil disagreements anymore. We fail to recognize that having a thought doesn’t make our thinking the truth. Ferrell writes, “We tend to have convictions about many things and to have opinions about almost everything else. We blind ourselves to the enormity of our ignorance.”

Cognitive scientists Steven Sloman and Phillip Fernbach in their book The Knowledge Illusion, put it this way: “In general we don’t appreciate how little we know; the tiniest bit of knowledge makes us feel like experts. Once we feel like an expert we start talking like an expert.”

The Dunning-Kruger Effect

Human ignorance is inevitable. It is ignorance of our ignorance that concerns psychology professor David Dunning. We can call ignorance of our ignorance, invincible ignorance when normal feedback from an individual’s working environment does little to disabuse them of their lack of skills.

Perversely, the worse we are at something, the more likely we will overate our skills. In Dunning’s words, “The knowledge and intelligence that are required to be good at a task are often the same qualities needed to recognize that one is not good at that task—and if one lacks such knowledge and intelligence, one remains ignorant that one is not good at that task.”

In short, “incompetence robs [us] of the ability to realize it.” We “are left with the erroneous impression [we] are doing just fine.”


https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/why-humans-increasingly-are-unaware-their-ignorance-and-why-its-big-problem?fbclid=IwAR3MeaVInrQ2G3N95-luHScxAAg-yYJHP9TXmTSxrPRjvorJoXnvte51tvU


Plenty more at this link.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Thor on Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:53 pm

Maddog wrote:“Has there ever been a time in the world’s history when people were more sure of their opinions?” asks Jim Ferrell of the Arbinger Insitute.

Ferrell observes, “We become set in our opinions precisely because we have lost sight of the fact that they are merely opinions…our culture is suffering from what one might call ‘opinion creep’—the elevation of unsupported thoughts to the status of opinions and opinions to convictions.”

We don’t know how to have civil disagreements anymore. We fail to recognize that having a thought doesn’t make our thinking the truth. Ferrell writes, “We tend to have convictions about many things and to have opinions about almost everything else. We blind ourselves to the enormity of our ignorance.”

Cognitive scientists Steven Sloman and Phillip Fernbach in their book The Knowledge Illusion, put it this way: “In general we don’t appreciate how little we know; the tiniest bit of knowledge makes us feel like experts. Once we feel like an expert we start talking like an expert.”

The Dunning-Kruger Effect

Human ignorance is inevitable. It is ignorance of our ignorance that concerns psychology professor David Dunning. We can call ignorance of our ignorance, invincible ignorance when normal feedback from an individual’s working environment does little to disabuse them of their lack of skills.

Perversely, the worse we are at something, the more likely we will overate our skills. In Dunning’s words, “The knowledge and intelligence that are required to be good at a task are often the same qualities needed to recognize that one is not good at that task—and if one lacks such knowledge and intelligence, one remains ignorant that one is not good at that task.”

In short, “incompetence robs [us] of the ability to realize it.” We “are left with the erroneous impression [we] are doing just fine.”


https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/why-humans-increasingly-are-unaware-their-ignorance-and-why-its-big-problem?fbclid=IwAR3MeaVInrQ2G3N95-luHScxAAg-yYJHP9TXmTSxrPRjvorJoXnvte51tvU


Plenty more at this link.

+1

Very good article Maddog

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Lord Foul on Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:01 am

so. what you are saying is

the ignorance of the ignorant
is the ignorance of ignorance???


or something like that........

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Maddog on Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:32 am

Lord Foul wrote:so. what you are saying is

the ignorance of the ignorant
is the ignorance of ignorance???


or something like that........

Some folks might be too dumb, to know they are dumb. tongue

But that's just part of the problem. Folks are really exposed to a lot of information, and then they form opinions based on that amount of information. Let's take shootings in the US. The exposure to shootings has never been higher, but the number of shootings is actually lower than in most of our lifetimes. Many people have drawn the conclusion that shootings are more common, because of the exposure, not the facts.

The same can be said of immigrants killing people or children being killed. People have formed opinions, devoid of actual facts or statistics.

People use emotions, not logic when forming opinions. The use the internet to confirm their biases and to attack people with a different bias, or a lack of bias.

I love to piss off old people when the say "well, these days!"

In most ways, these days are better than the good old days, but they are not interested in hearing that.

And now I'm just rambling. Cool

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by nicko on Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:31 am

Did you ever experience the "good old days"? There is plenty to like about them . I don't mean the really "old".
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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:51 am

Basketball

Wise man once say :
"Opinions are like arseholes --  everybody has one..".


When I was in 2nd year at Hawkesbury Ag' College I went to the graduation dinner for those 3rd and 4th year residential students who would be graduating at the end of that year..

The guest speaker that evening (a Hawkesbury 'old boy' past-graduate himself..) said that those leaving their time at college should keep in mind that finishing your formal education time wasn't an end to your education, but "just the beginning of your learning" --  as you would keep on learning more, for the rest of your life.

Indeed, the crux of that message always rings true --  as the more that you do learn, the more that you realise that you don't know --  and, hopefully, the more that you want to keep on learning..


What I do find disconcerting is when some ignorant yob who knows that they can't effectively counter what you've just said, comes out with that old chestnut :  "My/our opinions are 'worth' just as much as your facts/figures/truths"...

Or even worse, when they stop a discussion with a surly remark such as "You're an 'expert'/you're so perfect/people don't like a knowall/you're a liar..",  simply because they won't admit to being wrong..

Arrow

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:51 am

I think some people get a bit worn out with "learning" though. It's fine to keep learning what you really need to learn, but you don't want too much information overload.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Maddog on Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:54 pm

nicko wrote:Did you ever experience the "good old days"?    There is plenty to like about them . I don't mean the really "old".
I was born in 1963, so I'm sora old. 

I think humans are programmed to look at the past more favorably  than it actually was.  I also think we associate the past with being young, and most of us miss being young.  I know that sometimes I look at a pretty 25 year old thing, and for a few seconds its 1990 in my mind.  

Then i wake up.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by eddie on Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:58 pm

This article is actually totally what I think.

See my signature for more of what I think...

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:00 pm

eddie wrote:This article is actually totally what I think.

See my signature for more of what I think...

Yeah but point of order Eddie

At times you ignore medical expertise and base your views as better

To me I would call that ignorance, as at times, you think you know better.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by >THE Ben Reilly< on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:02 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I think some people get a bit worn out with "learning" though. It's fine to keep learning what you really need to learn, but you don't want too much information overload.

If you don't keep learning, there's a good chance you'll miss something you need to know.

People who change the world for the better never stop learning.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by eddie on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:04 pm

Thor wrote:
eddie wrote:This article is actually totally what I think.

See my signature for more of what I think...

Yeah but point of order Eddie

At times you ignore medical expertise and base your views as better

To me I would call that ignorance, as at times, you think you know better.

I know better? Of course not. I remain open. It is only when one closes ones mind and refuses to remain open, that one thinks one knows better.


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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:06 pm

eddie wrote:
Thor wrote:

Yeah but point of order Eddie

At times you ignore medical expertise and base your views as better

To me I would call that ignorance, as at times, you think you know better.

I know better? Of course not. I remain open. It is only when one closes ones mind and refuses to remain open, that one thinks one knows better.  

You remain open on chemo?

You remain open on vaccinations?

What a doctor advises, after telling me you claimed you knew better than your own doctor, based as you know your body better than they could?

How is that remaining open?

Please tell me?

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:12 pm

>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I think some people get a bit worn out with "learning" though. It's fine to keep learning what you really need to learn, but you don't want too much information overload.

If you don't keep learning, there's a good chance you'll miss something you need to know.

People who change the world for the better never stop learning.

Like what? I don't want to clutter my mind up with things I don't need to know about. I've had a lifetime of that.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:17 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
>THE Ben Reilly< wrote:

If you don't keep learning, there's a good chance you'll miss something you need to know.

People who change the world for the better never stop learning.

Like what? I don't want to clutter my mind up with things I don't need to know about. I've had a lifetime of that.

So you are basically shutting out potential knowledge, based on a view you do not want to know

How is that helping you learn, you might in fact possible be mistaken on something?

I have at times change my view and perception on a view things. If I had not, I would remained dogmatic. To be closed to different ideas or actualy views, is being closed minded

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:19 pm

Thor wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Like what? I don't want to clutter my mind up with things I don't need to know about. I've had a lifetime of that.

So you are basically shutting out potential knowledge, based on a view you do not want to know

How is that helping you learn, you might in fact possible be mistaken on something?

I have at times change my view and perception on a view things. If I had not, I would remained dogmatic. To be closed to different ideas or actualy views, is being closed minded

I don't need to learn about something I don't need to know about - as I said. I have enough to think about with work, life in general, etc. If I have a particular interest in something I'll find out about it, but I don't want information overload - that road leads to stress.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:21 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

So you are basically shutting out potential knowledge, based on a view you do not want to know

How is that helping you learn, you might in fact possible be mistaken on something?

I have at times change my view and perception on a view things. If I had not, I would remained dogmatic. To be closed to different ideas or actualy views, is being closed minded

I don't need to learn about something I don't need to know about - as I said. I have enough to think about with work, life in general, etc. If I have a particular interest in something I'll find out about it, but I don't want information overload - that road leads to stress.

Which means you are very closeminded and not open to the view you could actually be wrong

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:23 pm

Thor wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I don't need to learn about something I don't need to know about as I said. I have enough to think about with work, life in general, etc. If I have a particular interest in something I'll find out about it, but I don't want information overload - that road leads to stress.

Which means you are very closeminded and not open to the view you could actually be wrong

So what?

Anyway, I can't be wrong about something I don't know about because I wouldn't have an opinion on it.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:26 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

Which means you are very closeminded and not open to the view you could actually be wrong

So what?

Anyway, I can't be wrong about something I don't know about because I wouldn't have an opinion on it.

Well lets talk about something you do know about

Christinaity

I was once a believer and it shows I was open to the idea i could be wrong and now am athiest

However, this does not mean I am right, as I am still open to the possibility I could be wrong that no god exists

I could be wrong that in fact the Christian God exist. Howver i would be appalled if such a god did exist

Which means I am open and not a closed book. Where as people already religious, tend to be closed books on this

Now are you open to the idea you could be wrong on your beliefs with Christianity?

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by eddie on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:27 pm

Thor wrote:
eddie wrote:
Thor wrote:

Yeah but point of order Eddie

At times you ignore medical expertise and base your views as better

To me I would call that ignorance, as at times, you think you know better.

I know better? Of course not. I remain open. It is only when one closes ones mind and refuses to remain open, that one thinks one knows better.  

You remain open on chemo?

You remain open on vaccinations?

What a doctor advises, after telling me you claimed you knew better than your own doctor, based as you know your body better than they could?

How is that remaining open?

Please tell me?


How do you remain open?

I dont get angry when people disagree with me either, you do. I think you should think about what that means.

Take a look at my signature. Cool

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:27 pm

Thor wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

So what?

Anyway, I can't be wrong about something I don't know about because I wouldn't have an opinion on it.

Well lets talk about something you do know about

Christinaity

I was once a believer and it shows I was open to the idea i could be wrong and now am athiest

However, this does not mean I am right, as I am still open to the possibility I could be wrong that no god exists

I could be wrong that in fact the Christian God exist. Howver i would be appalled if such a god did exist

Which means I am open and not a closed book. Where as people already religious, tend to be closed books on this

Now are you open to the idea you could be wrong on your beliefs with Christianity?

Of course not.


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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:28 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

Well lets talk about something you do know about

Christinaity

I was once a believer and it shows I was open to the idea i could be wrong and now am athiest

However, this does not mean I am right, as I am still open to the possibility I could be wrong that no god exists

I could be wrong that in fact the Christian God exist. Howver i would be appalled if such a god did exist

Which means I am open and not a closed book. Where as people already religious, tend to be closed books on this

Now are you open to the idea you could be wrong on your beliefs with Christianity?

Of course not.


So like I said closeminded then

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:31 pm

eddie wrote:
Thor wrote:
You remain open on chemo?

You remain open on vaccinations?

What a doctor advises, after telling me you claimed you knew better than your own doctor, based as you know your body better than they could?

How is that remaining open?

Please tell me?


How do you remain open?

I dont get angry when people disagree with me either, you do. I think you should think about what that means.

Take a look at my signature. Cool

I agree my passions run away with me, but again unlike you, I later take stock and think about what people say when calm

Which means unlike you and how you failed to answer my points

I am not closeminded

It means I reason peoples points and at times change my views, as I am open to other ideas.

How many times have you change your views, when you have been dogmatic before?


Last edited by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:33 pm

Thor wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Of course not.


So like I said closeminded then

That's just your word for it. I see it as not being swayed by other people who doubt or disbelieve. That's a good thing. You're just swaying in the wind according to what others say.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:33 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

So like I said closeminded then

That's just your word for it. I see it as not being swayed by other people who doubt or disbelieve. That's a good thing. You're just swaying in the wind according to what others say.

That is being closeminded, as you are not open then to other views or the fact you could be wrong

I am open to the view i can and at times am wrong

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:34 pm

Thor wrote:
eddie wrote:

I know better? Of course not. I remain open. It is only when one closes ones mind and refuses to remain open, that one thinks one knows better.  

You remain open on chemo?

You remain open on vaccinations?

What a doctor advises, after telling me you claimed you knew better than your own doctor, based as you know your body better than they could?

How is that remaining open?

Please tell me?

There's nothing wrong with doubting what a doctor says. I've had good reason to do so in the past and also the present. I do recall being a bit cross with eddie re her attitude at the surgery, but that's another issue.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:35 pm

Thor wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:



That's just your word for it. I see it as not being swayed by other people who doubt or disbelieve. That's a good thing. You're just swaying in the wind according to what others say.

That is being closeminded, as you are not open then to other views or the fact you could be wrong

I am open to the view i can and at times am wrong

Then being closeminded can be a good thing, right? I'm also closeminded on issues like hunting with dogs, and I see that as a good thing.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:37 pm

Thor wrote:
eddie wrote:


How do you remain open?

I dont get angry when people disagree with me either, you do. I think you should think about what that means.

Take a look at my signature. Cool

I agree my passions run away with me, but again unlike you, I later take stock and think about what people say when calm

Which means unlike you and how you failed to answer my points

I am not closeminded

It means I reason peoples points and at times change my views, as I am open to other ideas.

How many times have you change your views, when you have been dogmatic before?

I've never seen you change your views on here, unless it's to be controversial and argumentative. You usually try to bludgeon people into agreeing with you, no matter what.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:38 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

I agree my passions run away with me, but again unlike you, I later take stock and think about what people say when calm

Which means unlike you and how you failed to answer my points

I am not closeminded

It means I reason peoples points and at times change my views, as I am open to other ideas.

How many times have you change your views, when you have been dogmatic before?

I've never seen you change your views on here, unless it's to be controversial and argumentative. You usually try to bludgeon people into agreeing with you, no matter what.

Really, I once used to defend Islam, ask anyone here

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:56 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

That is being closeminded, as you are not open then to other views or the fact you could be wrong

I am open to the view i can and at times am wrong

Then being closeminded can be a good thing, right? I'm also closeminded on issues like hunting with dogs, and I see that as a good thing.

Not really if it blinds you to follow bad things

Take religious extremism for example, where people think its righteous to murder people and think they will get into heaven for doing this

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:14 pm

Thor wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Then being closeminded can be a good thing, right? I'm also closeminded on issues like hunting with dogs, and I see that as a good thing.

Not really if it blinds you to follow bad things

Take religious extremism for example, where people think its righteous to murder people and think they will get into heaven for doing this

I'm not following a bad thing though. I'm not responsible for what anyone else does.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:15 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

Not really if it blinds you to follow bad things

Take religious extremism for example, where people think its righteous to murder people and think they will get into heaven for doing this

I'm not following a bad thing though. I'm not responsible for what anyone else does.

Does not matter, when as seen you remain closeminded to things

The possibility then is you have no conception you may be doing the wrong thing, when closeminded

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Raggamuffin on Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:18 pm

Thor wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I'm not following a bad thing though. I'm not responsible for what anyone else does.

Does not matter, when as seen you remain closeminded to things

The possibility then is you have no conception you may be doing the wrong thing, when closeminded

That's fine by me. I don't spend all my time worrying about whether I'm doing the wrong thing or not. My beliefs are not hurting anyone, they are my own business, and it's not for you to question them. You are overthinking this.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by eddie on Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:19 pm

Thor wrote:
eddie wrote:
Thor wrote:
You remain open on chemo?

You remain open on vaccinations?

What a doctor advises, after telling me you claimed you knew better than your own doctor, based as you know your body better than they could?

How is that remaining open?

Please tell me?


How do you remain open?

I dont get angry when people disagree with me either, you do. I think you should think about what that means.

Take a look at my signature. Cool

I agree my passions run away with me, but again unlike you, I later take stock and think about what people say when calm

Which means unlike you and how you failed to answer my points

I am not closeminded

It means I reason peoples points and at times change my views, as I am open to other ideas.

How many times have you change your views, when you have been dogmatic before?


But didge, I don’t have to “change my mind” because my mind is never made up.
Hence we are back to my original statement.

I hope you’re starting to see my point.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Thor on Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:20 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Thor wrote:

Does not matter, when as seen you remain closeminded to things

The possibility then is you have no conception you may be doing the wrong thing, when closeminded

That's fine by me. I don't spend all my time worrying about whether I'm doing the wrong thing or not. My beliefs are not hurting anyone, they are my own business, and it's not for you to question them. You are overthinking this.

I am sure ISIS dont think they are doing wrong either Rags

They actually think its righteous what they do

As they are closeminded

Have a good evening

Night

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

Post by Vintage on Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:23 pm

We now have the leisure to learn things we don't really need, previously we had to learn skills to survive and keep the things we required to do our work repaired etc. There weren't many specialists like now,
How would the average person manage these days if something decimated the world's population, we'd be ok for a while with food and tools. possibly a generation but we'd need to re learn a heck of a lot of ordinary stuff, so I'd say were are getting more ignorant and we don't realise it.

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Re: Why Humans Increasingly Are Unaware of Their Ignorance

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