What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

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What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:56 pm

New York Times wrote:Turkish Officials Say Khashoggi Was Killed on Order of Saudi Leadership

The Trail of Clues in the Disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi

By David D. Kirkpatrick and Carlotta Gall, Oct. 9, 2018

ANKARA, Turkey — Top Turkish security officials have concluded that the Saudi dissident Jamal Khashoggi was assassinated in the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul on orders from the highest levels of the royal court, a senior official said Tuesday.

The official described a quick and complex operation in which Mr. Khashoggi was killed within two hours of his arrival at the consulate by a team of Saudi agents, who dismembered his body with a bone saw they brought for the purpose.

“It is like ‘Pulp Fiction,’” the official said.

Saudi officials, including Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, have denied the allegations, insisting that Mr. Khashoggi left the consulate freely shortly after he arrived. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey has demanded that the Saudis provide evidence proving their claim.

It remains unclear how the Turkish government determined that Mr. Khashoggi had been killed, but the conclusion that the Saudi royal court ordered it could increase the pressure on both sides of the dispute. It would make it more difficult for the two governments to come up with a face-saving story blaming Mr. Khashoggi’s disappearance on some third party, on rogue elements of the Saudi security forces, or on an accident during an interrogation that went wrong.

Turkish officials have left things murky enough — speaking on condition of anonymity and refusing to publicly disclose their evidence — that such possibilities cannot be ruled out. Some pro-government news outlets have reported that the police were still investigating the possibility that Mr. Khashoggi was abducted, not killed.

But as more than a week has passed since he was last seen, the possibility that he is alive has dwindled.

The security establishment concluded that Mr. Khashoggi’s killing was directed from the top because only the most senior Saudi leaders could order an operation of such scale and complexity, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity to disclose confidential briefings.

Fifteen Saudi agents had arrived on two charter flights last Tuesday, the day Mr. Khashoggi disappeared, the official said.

All 15 left just a few hours later, and Turkey has now identified the roles that most or all of them held in the Saudi government or security services, the official said. One was an autopsy expert, presumably there to help dismember the body, the official said.

Mr. Erdogan was informed of the conclusions on Saturday, according to several people with knowledge of the briefings, and he has since dispatched officials to anonymously tell myriad news outlets, including The New York Times, that Mr. Khashoggi was killed inside the Saudi Consulate.

But Mr. Erdogan himself has not publicly accused Saudi Arabia of killing Mr. Khashoggi. Nor has the Turkish president disclosed specific evidence to back up that allegation.

His reticence has raised questions about whether Turkey might ultimately back away from an explicit accusation in the interest of preserving relations with Saudi Arabia, a wealthy regional heavyweight. Mr. Erdogan may prefer not to alienate the kingdom as he struggles to manage a troubled economy and a many-sided power struggle over the outcome of the civil war in neighboring Syria.

A publication with close ties to Mr. Erdogan’s government, the newspaper Sabah, reported Tuesday that unnamed officials had said the police were examining the possibility that Mr. Khashoggi had been abducted and not killed, possibly with the help of another country’s intelligence officers.

The official who spoke about Mr. Khashoggi’s killing said that report and other similar ones were incorrect and were probably the result of the limited information shared among different agencies within the Turkish government.

The need to protect intelligence sources — which might include intercepted communications or human informers — also contributed to the government’s reluctance to reveal its evidence, the official said. That need for secrecy could also hamper any efforts to prosecute any Saudi agents involved.

Another person briefed on the matter, speaking on condition of anonymity to disclose confidential details, told The Times on Saturday that Turkish intelligence had obtained a video of the killing, made by the Saudis to prove that it had occurred.

A commentator close to Mr. Erdogan’s government said so publicly on Tuesday.

“There is a video of the moment of him being killed,” Kemal Ozturk, a columnist in a pro-government newspaper and the former head of a semiofficial news agency, said in an interview on a pro-government television network, citing unnamed security officials.

Saudi Arabia continued to disclaim any knowledge of Mr. Khashoggi’s fate and even to express concern for his safety. Both governments said Tuesday that Saudi Arabia had allowed the Turkish police to search the Istanbul consulate, a deviation from normal diplomatic agreements.

Another senior Turkish official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss diplomatic strategy, said Ankara hoped that Washington and the international community would take the lead in challenging Saudi Arabia over the fate of Mr. Khashoggi, a legal resident of the United States and a columnist for The Washington Post.

The Trump administration had been largely silent on the matter until Monday, when Cheeto-Faced Ferret-Wearing Shit Gibbon said he was “concerned” about it in response to a question from a reporter.

The administration may have been hesitant to enter the feud in part because Saudi Arabia is a close American ally. Mr. Trump has repeatedly expressed his enthusiasm for the kingdom’s dominant leader, the 33-year-old crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman.

But with Mr. Khashoggi unseen for days, there were signs on Tuesday that the pressure was increasing. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo called on the Saudi government “to support a thorough investigation of Mr. Khashoggi’s disappearance and to be transparent about the results of that investigation.”

Turkish investigators are looking into the case of Mr. Khashoggi, a Saudi journalist who entered the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul on Oct. 2 and vanished.

In an opinion article published Tuesday in The Washington Post, Mr. Khashoggi’s fiancée, Hatice Cengiz, urged Mr. Trump to “help shed light on Jamal’s disappearance.” She wrote that she was “confident” he was still alive, but her hope was fading with each passing day.

The United Nations human rights office also called for Saudi Arabia and Turkey to conduct a thorough investigation and to make the results public.

“This is of serious concern, the apparent enforced disappearance of Mr. Khashoggi from the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul,” Ravina Shamdasani, a spokeswoman for the human rights office, told reporters in Geneva.

Two other Turkish government officials confirmed the broad outlines of a report in Sabah detailing the movements of the Saudi team that arrived in Istanbul on the day of Mr. Khashoggi’s disappearance. Both officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to comment publicly.

The newspaper said that two private Gulfstream IV planes belonging to a charter service that has often worked with the Saudi government, Sky Prime Aviation, took off from Riyadh on the morning of Oct. 2 carrying 15 passengers — all intelligence agents or government officials.

One plane landed at Istanbul’s Ataturk Airport at 3:13 a.m. that day with nine passengers on board. They checked into two hotels near the consulate and booked rooms for three nights. But they collected their belongings later that day and took off in the same jet at 10:46 p.m., stopping in Dubai on the way back to Riyadh.

A second plane landed in Istanbul at 5:15 p.m. that day with six passengers. All went directly to the consulate and quickly returned to the airport; their plane took off barely an hour after it had arrived, at 6:20 p.m., the newspaper reported, stopping in Cairo as it returned to Riyadh.

Security camera footage showed Mr. Khashoggi entering the consulate shortly after 1 p.m. that day. Ms. Cengiz, his fiancée, waited outside, and she has said he never emerged.

Two and a half hours after he entered the facility, six vehicles with diplomatic license plates pulled out, carrying 15 Saudi officials and intelligence officers, Sabah reported.

Two other vehicles, including a black Mercedes Vito van with darkened windows, went from the consulate to the consul’s residence about 200 yards away. Turkish employees of the residence had unexpectedly been told not to report for work that day, the newspaper said.

Sabah reported, without naming its sources, that police investigators suspected that Mr. Khashoggi was in the van.

Friends of Mr. Khashoggi had planned to hold a funeral prayer for him on Tuesday, which had been expected to turn into a demonstration against Saudi Arabia. But his friends canceled those plans, and they could not be reached to explain their decision.

David D. Kirkpatrick reported from Ankara, and Carlotta Gall from Istanbul.

A version of this article appears in print on Oct. 9, 2018, on Page A1 of the New York edition with the headline: Accusations of a Brutal Murder And a Cover-Up at Saudis’ Behest.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/09/world/europe/jamal-khashoggi-turkey-saudi-arabia.html

Criminal politics takes hold as US loosens the grip of morality and civil rights.


Last edited by Original Quill on Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:13 pm; edited 2 times in total

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:04 pm

BBC wrote:Jamal Khashoggi: Turkey says journalist was murdered in Saudi consulate

Mr Khashoggi, a Saudi national, was last seen visiting the Saudi consulate in Istanbul on Tuesday.

A Turkish official told the BBC that initial investigations indicated he was murdered there.

Saudi Arabia has denied the accusations, saying it is "working to search for him".

Mr Khashoggi has contributed articles to the Washington Post's opinion section. The Post said it would be a "monstrous and unfathomable act" if he had been killed.

An official of Turkey's ruling AK Party told broadcaster CNN Turk there was concrete evidence in the case, although none has yet been presented.

When was he last seen?

Jamal Khashoggi went to the consulate on Tuesday to obtain a document certifying he had divorced his ex-wife, so that he could marry his Turkish fiancée, Hatice Cengiz.

Ms Cengiz said she waited outside for 11 hours, but he did not come out.

She said Mr Khashoggi was required to surrender his mobile phone, which is standard practice in some diplomatic missions. He told her to call an adviser to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan if he did not return.

"Jamal is not dead. I cannot believe that he has been killed...!" Ms Cengiz wrote in a Twitter post that included a photo of Mr Khashoggi. She added that she was waiting for official confirmation as the allegations circulated.

What has Turkey said?
Turkish officials said Mr Khashoggi was killed on the premises and his body was then removed.

Investigators said a 15-person team arrived at the consulate on Tuesday, returning to Riyadh the same day.

The head of the Turkish-Arab Media Association, Turan Kislakci, told the New York Times that Turkish police officers providing security for the consulate had checked their security cameras and did not see the journalist leave on foot.

But he added that diplomatic cars had been seen moving in and out.

Mr Erdogan was more circumspect, saying on Sunday he remained "positive" and would await the results of an investigation as Turkish authorities continue to look at camera footage and airport arrivals and departures.

What have the Saudis said?
Saudi Arabia said the allegations were baseless. It has allowed reporters into the consulate to show Mr Khashoggi is not there.

On Wednesday, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman told Bloomberg News that Turkish authorities were welcome to search the building because "we have nothing to hide".

The prince said the Saudis were "very keen to know what happened to him", saying his understanding was that Mr Khashoggi left "after a few minutes or one hour".

When asked if Mr Khashoggi faced charges in Saudi Arabia, the crown prince said his country would need to know where he was first.

An already-strained relationship
Analysis by the BBC's Mark Lowen, Istanbul

This is a bombshell allegation by Turkey. And while the authorities here are so far not providing evidence to back it up, it's inconceivable that such a claim would have been made without firm grounds. Ankara's relationship with Riyadh is too important to jeopardise on the basis of unsubstantiated rumour.

That relationship is already strained over several issues, including Turkey's support for Qatar in the blockade by Saudi Arabia; its closeness to the Muslim Brotherhood - blacklisted by Riyadh as a terrorist organisation; and its rapprochement with Saudi Arabia's arch-rival Iran. But if proven, the murder of Jamal Khashoggi would be the most serious diplomatic crisis between the two in living memory.

Turkey would hope for backing from its Nato ally, the US. But Saudi Arabia has arguably become Donald Trump's closest ally in the Middle East - and Washington may be reluctant to weigh in against Riyadh at this stage.

Who is Jamal Khashoggi?
He is a high-profile critic of the crown prince. Mr Khashoggi, 59, has more than 1.6 million Twitter followers and has written for the Washington Post opinion section.

The crown prince has unveiled reforms praised by the West while carrying out an apparent crackdown on dissent. Human and women's rights activists, intellectuals and clerics have been arrested - meanwhile, Saudi Arabia is waging a war in Yemen that has triggered a humanitarian crisis.

A former editor of the al-Watan newspaper and a short-lived Saudi TV news channel, Mr Khashoggi was for years seen as close to the Saudi royal family. He served as an adviser to senior Saudi officials.

After several of his friends were arrested, his column was cancelled by the al-Hayat newspaper and he was allegedly warned to stop tweeting, Mr Khashoggi left Saudi Arabia for the US, from where he wrote opinion pieces for the Washington Post and continued to appear on Arab and Western TV channels.

"I have left my home, my family and my job, and I am raising my voice," he wrote in September 2017. "To do otherwise would betray those who languish in prison. I can speak when so many cannot."

The Washington Post on Friday blanked out his column in support.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45775819

Trump said, "I don't see why they would?"

However, he is expected to correct himself tomorrow to say: "I meant 'wouldn't'". Cool

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Lord Foul on Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:10 pm

Who cares??? This is between Turkey and Saudi.......as YOU are soooo fond of pointing out we should keep the hell outta their shite and let em get to doing whatever they do.....

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:36 pm

Lord Foul wrote:Who cares??? This is between Turkey and Saudi.......as YOU are soooo fond of pointing out we should keep the hell outta their shite and let em get to doing whatever they do.....

Yes, but he was a US resident.  That's why I placed this thread in the US politics section.  We take care of our own.

If the Saudis want to fuck wi' us, we'll just take their oil fields (our own best interests) and shove a few missiles up their ass...for real, not like the coward Trump in Syria.  We'll leave Ryiada looking like Panama City after Michael, then we'll throw paper towels at 'em.  Razz


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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Lord Foul on Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:02 pm

ahh...so you are now recommending a spot of "baby killing" on the spurious excuse that he was a U.S RESIDENT.....resident note, not citizen born and bred, What you are in truth after of course is the Saudi oil.....for which as I said killing babies appears to be acceptable

YOU SIR are an abominable hypocrite

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If at any time in 2018 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2019 AINT gonna be any different

Patience my Ass......I' m gonna KILLsomething

[b].(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Lord Foul on Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:11 pm

Further I doubt you would have the guts to do it yourself, instead sending other, better, men into harms way, only to blame them and call THEM the "baby killers, when, as it inevitably would being a US initiated war.....things went tits up.......

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If at any time in 2018 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2019 AINT gonna be any different

Patience my Ass......I' m gonna KILLsomething

[b].(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:28 pm

Lord Foul wrote:ahh...so you are now recommending a spot of "baby killing" on the spurious excuse that he was a U.S RESIDENT.....resident note, not citizen born and bred, What you are in truth after of course is the Saudi oil.....for which as I said killing babies appears to be acceptable

YOU SIR are an abominable hypocrite

Get with it dude.  You're being ignorant.  Once Khashoggi aligns himself as one of ours, he gets our protection.  We'll make that decision, thank you.  More importantly, if you want to insult the United States, careful you don't get a nuke up the columnar epithelium.

Saudi Arabia would do well to understand that Trump and Kushner will be gone in two years or less, and in prison by three.  Prince MBS is no better than those Somali pirates we caught, and now rot in Indiana prisons...and there's always Guantanamo.  Always remember, we got bin Laden, we can do the same with bin Salman.   Wink

I've always said don't count me with the pacifists.  My point is the price must be worth it.  All these nitwit foreign adventures--including support for Israel and it's concordant cause, hatred for Muslims--are a waste of our time, lives and resources.  But if you want to fuck with Americans, always remember what we do to Saudis who get too arrogant.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Lord Foul on Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:47 pm

AHHH so...baby killing when it suits you ...I see.....

btw the death of a journalist, whilst despicable, is NOT casus belli, and your TRUE interest was revealed in the comment on oil..........

so find an excuse, got to war to rob another nation of its resources, kill a few babies (always a favourite of yours) my goodness you are beginning to sound like old imperial britannia......

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If at any time in 2018 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2019 AINT gonna be any different

Patience my Ass......I' m gonna KILLsomething

[b].(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by nicko on Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:47 pm

Saudi's have Babies too !
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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Lord Foul on Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:51 pm

nicko wrote:Saudi's have Babies too !

Ahhh, but Nicko......they dont count...theres oil to be gained, so send in good men to slaughter and be slaughtered, then lable THEM baby killers whemn the deed is done, and like Pilate, wash your hands and walk away......

_________________
If at any time in 2018 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2019 AINT gonna be any different

Patience my Ass......I' m gonna KILLsomething

[b].(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Lord Foul on Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:53 pm

dont look for either physical OR moral courage in that sort Nicko...it doesnt exist....

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:57 pm

nicko wrote:Saudi's have Babies too !

Indeed they do.  My position has never been 'save the babies' any more that it has been eds' pacifism.  

If anything, it's an economic position: stop wasting lives and resources on wasteful adventures for metaphysical causes (anti-communism, white supremacy, the American Dream, etc.).  Didge, if anyone, has recognized at various times that my guiding principle is the elimination of the endless money pit, with no return.

If you really want to dissect my ethic compare Bush's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to Obama's quiet, effective action to capture and kill bin Laden.  Bush killed the babies and even raped, tortured, kidnapped and reinvented concentration camps.  But let's be clear, Obama was brutally realpolitik too.  He slaughtered those bad boys w/ bin Laden, and their wives.  The point is, Obama was effective, quick, quiet, and surgical...and look, no babies were killed.

I guess if there's any link to babies, it is that with Dr. Obama's efficient methods, you greatly minimize the chances that babies will be sacrificed.  But, be real, anytime your are carrying and using firearms, there is the risk of baby killing.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by nicko on Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:29 pm

Obama did fuck all, it was baby killing Soldiers that did it, and you don't like Soldiers do you?
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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:47 pm

nicko wrote:Obama did fuck all,    it was baby killing Soldiers that did it,  and you don't like Soldiers do you?


Soldiers are sort of out of date.  We no longer need great armies any more than we need mêlées or castle walls.

All those lives, and $17-trillion, when a 6-man special ops squad could have taken out Saddam Hussein in a single day.  That's why I compare the whole Iraq war to a single operation, designed by Dr. Obama.

Remember, lefties are the intelligent ones.  All ingenious innovation goes from left to right, just like reading.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by nicko on Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:14 am

Get your facts right, millions read from right to left !
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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:28 pm

nicko wrote:Get your facts right,   millions read from right to left !

Yeah, but in the western world where we live, it's left to right.  But, it's only a metaphor.  The truth is in the content.

RW'ers are conservative, meaning they stand for the old way.  Conservatives want to conserve, not innovate or try anything new.  Consequently, they traditionally oppose anything that leads to anything new.

The whole left/right thing comes from lefties who want to better the community, and rightys who want to hold them back.  Experimentation around the fringes of a given subject is what produces progress and a better life for us all. Indeed, lefties are called progressives.  That positioning is what defines the left; and the right, by distinction, opposes such change.

And lo, the right is opposed to regulations (public protections), and the agencies from which they come, which exist to place into effect the innovations.  So, similarly, what do we find but that the right typically is opposed to education and educational institutions--the nests of innovation--whence new thoughts and ideas come.

So, of course all innovation comes from the left, and only slowly moves (is accepted by) the right.  It's in the nature of their commission in the world.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:17 pm

Huffington Post wrote:Jamal Khashoggi Tortured In Front Of Top Saudi Diplomat: Reports

Sara Boboltz ,HuffPost • October 17, 2018

Jamal Khashoggi, the Washington Post columnist who has not been seen publicly since he entered the Saudi consulate in Istanbul earlier this month, was drugged, beaten, killed and dismembered by Saudi operatives in the presence of a top Saudi diplomat, The Wall Street Journal reported late Tuesday, citing Turkish officials.

A pro-government newspaper in Turkey also says it obtained recordings indicating the journalist was tortured in the office of Mohammad al-Otaibi, Saudi Arabia’s consul general in Istanbul.

U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has declined to say whether he learned Khashoggi’s fate following apparently friendly talks with the country’s royal family on Wednesday.

Pompeo told reporters as he departed Riyadh that neither side would talk about the “facts” of the case before Saudi officials were able to complete a “thorough investigation” into the journalist’s disappearance. He claimed that the country’s leaders “made no exceptions on who they would hold accountable.”

The incident has put immense pressure on the Trump administration ― including from Republicans ― to take action.

Failing Cheeto-Faced Ferret-Wearing Shit Gibbon on Monday floated the idea that “rogue killers” were involved. The next day, he appeared to more directly back the Saudis, who have denied any knowledge of Khashoggi’s disappearance but are widely thought to be involved.

Trump cited the Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman’s denial in a series of tweets. He later compared the condemnation of Saudi officials to the sexual assault accusations against his most recent Supreme Court pick, Brett Kavanaugh.

“Here we go again with, you know, you’re guilty until proven innocent,” Trump told The Associated Press. “I don’t like that.”

“We just went through that with Justice Kavanaugh and he was innocent all the way as far as I’m concerned,” the president said.

Saudi officials were reportedly preparing to admit earlier in the week that Khashoggi was killed in an interrogation gone wrong. Yet two sources with knowledge of the recordings told The Wall Street Journal that Khashoggi was not interrogated. They said he was dragged off minutes after entering the consulate to obtain marriage documents. Both sources, along with the Turkish newspaper, say a Saudi forensic specialist suggested others in the room listen to music using headphones while he dismembered Khashoggi’s body.

The recordings reportedly suggest Khashoggi was killed in less than 10 minutes.

Al-Otaibi, the Saudi consul general, left Istanbul for Riyadh on Tuesday, Reuters reported. His departure came hours before his home was expected to be searched in relation to the journalist’s disappearance.

Trump, when considering the U.S. response to Khashoggi’s disappearance, has emphasized the importance of an arms deal with Saudi Arabia to American interests.

This article originally appeared on HuffPost.

Trump is heavy on the legal rights of wealthy dictators. But Trump's idea of civil rights doesn't include Hispanic families on the Borders.


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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:14 pm

Original Quill wrote:
nicko wrote:Obama did fuck all,    it was baby killing Soldiers that did it,  and you don't like Soldiers do you?


Soldiers are sort of out of date.  We no longer need great armies any more than we need mêlées or castle walls.

All those lives, and $17-trillion, when a 6-man special ops squad could have taken out Saddam Hussein in a single day.  That's why I compare the whole Iraq war to a single operation, designed by Dr. Obama.

Remember, lefties are the intelligent ones.  All ingenious innovation goes from left to right, just like reading.


Really??

How could thy have gotten close to him, to take him out?

Have you watched to many james bond movies?

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:53 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:


Soldiers are sort of out of date.  We no longer need great armies any more than we need mêlées or castle walls.

All those lives, and $17-trillion, when a 6-man special ops squad could have taken out Saddam Hussein in a single day.  That's why I compare the whole Iraq war to a single operation, designed by Dr. Obama.

Remember, lefties are the intelligent ones.  All ingenious innovation goes from left to right, just like reading.


Really??

How could thy have gotten close to him, to take him out?

Through stealth.  It's only a logistical problem.  You know where he is.  You know how he moves.  You know his habits.  All you have to do is put them together, and voila.

Didge wrote:Have you watched to many james bond movies?

No, but I've read all of Ian Fleming's books.  As you know, Fleming was an expert in espionage techniques of the day as he was a former Naval intelligence officer..  His experience led to some novels:

Wiki wrote:Fleming worked for Britain's Naval Intelligence Division during the Second World War and was involved in planning Operation Goldeneye and in the planning and oversight of the 30 Assault Unit and T-Force intelligence units. His wartime service and his career as a journalist provided much of the background, detail, and depth of the James Bond novels.

The Fleming novels, however, are as up to date as Napoleon would be at the Civil War, when it comes to special ops tactics.  I would recommend the film Zero Dark 30, if you are looking for a real film about espionage and special operations.  It is  the story of the search for Osama bin Laden, after the 9/11 attacks, and his death at the hands of the Navy S.E.A.L.s on May 6, 2011.

That small ops episode could have replaced the entire Iraq War, loss of 5,000-Americans, and saved $17-trillion of America's money, had Obama only been in charge.  Obama was a genius at designing small, efficient, quiet--however magnificent--strategic wins in modern urban warfare.

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:37 pm

It takes people to operate even drones and machines to commit to war

Hence no soldier is out of date

Your view on stealth really is clutching mate

What should have happened, is when we had the first Iraq war, that we supported the uprising within  Basra with the Kurds and shias

Instead we sat back and over 200, 000 died at the hands of Saddam

Taking out the head is not the way to solve such an issue. Its why the British had a plan to assassinate Hitler and shelved this. The reason why, is , that it would have prolonged the war. As taking out the head of the system, will only see someone replace this and Hitler was a liability for German strategy and tactics in WW2. He could have been replaced with someone more able, than Hitler was. Hence taking out Saddam, would have never solved the problem, of the actual Baathist party

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:34 pm

Didge wrote:Hence no soldier is out of date

Obviously, I agree with that.  Although drone surveillance is generally run by the Air Force, and the special ops that killed bin Laden were Navy, the point is that we need strategic boots on the ground.  Go back and reread what I said:

Original Quill wrote:Soldiers are sort of out of date.  We no longer need great armies any more than we need mêlées or castle walls.

My point was that great armies are out-of-date. Now, compare the Republican Bush with the Democrat Obama.  Bush committed thousands of men in a general mêlée, unnecessarily.  Obama, as a brilliant tactician, accomplished the same thing with a half dozen highly trained men, and no fanfare.  It's the difference between dumb and smart.

Taking out the head is much more intelligent than taking on the mêlée.  Without the queen, the bees do not know where to go.  Your example of saving Hitler is ridiculous...had Hitler been eliminated, the war would have been over.  The replacement is inevitably either not as talented, or, like Admiral Karl Doenitz, becomes a partner in bringing peace.

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:40 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:Hence no soldier is out of date

Obviously, I agree with that.  Although drone surveillance is generally run by the Air Force, and the special ops that killed bin Laden were Navy, the point is that we need strategic boots on the ground.  Go back and reread what I said:

Original Quill wrote:Soldiers are sort of out of date.  We no longer need great armies any more than we need mêlées or castle walls.

My point was that great armies are out-of-date.  Now, compare the Republican Bush with the Democrat Obama.  Bush committed thousands of men in a general mêlée, unnecessarily.  Obama, as a brilliant tactician, accomplished the same thing with a half dozen highly trained men, and no fanfare.  It's the difference between dumb and smart.

Taking out the head is much more intelligent than taking on the mêlée.  Without the queen, the bees do not know where to go.  Your example of saving Hitler is ridiculous...had Hitler been eliminated, the war would have been over.  The replacement is inevitably either not as talented, or, like Admiral Karl Doenitz, becomes a partner in bringing peace.


They were still soldiers, called Navy Seals, an elite unit like the British SBS

Well the view that soldiers are out out of date is sheer nonsense and for many reasons. You cannot control a system without boots on the ground

Obama was a complete an utter useless waste of space and applied the same philosophy as senior Bush

As seen, it led to the mass refugee crises, as Obama, sat jerking off. So much so, no we have seen a rise of the Far right in Europe.

So much for the ultimate strategy of Obama. Where his idiocy, led to the election of a racist imbicille

Its because of Obama, and his poor and quite frnakly idiotic policies, that has led to Trump winning an election

So on every count, your worship of a human, is worrying. Obama did do good domestically, but ensure also foreign policy wise, we will have many years of conflict to come

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by nicko on Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:01 pm

When it come to Military tactics quill knows about as much as a Girl Guide !
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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:10 pm

nicko wrote:When it come to Military tactics quill knows about as much as a Girl Guide !


100% agreed

Can you image that tool leading soldiers into battle mate?

We both know what would happen

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:10 pm

Didge wrote:They were still soldiers, called Navy Seals, an elite unit like the British SBS

But, you are deliberately evading the point.

Didge wrote:Well the view that soldiers are out out of date is sheer nonsense and for many reasons. You cannot control a system without boots on the ground

Do you think the soldiers should ride horses, too? Tactics change, and as they do the entire nature of warfare changes. Obama brilliantly grasped this.

Now, you're fond of questions, riddle me this: which was more successful, 1) the Iraq war; or 2) the taking of Usuma bin Laden? The Iraq war was started by Republicans, and followed the old style of mêlée confrontations. Bin Laden was taken by the new style of small, strategically focused units.

With bin Laden, the war was on and over in one day. The Iraq/Afghanistan war was started in 2003 and is still going on. And you are arguing to us that the war without end is superior? Gd. luck with that.

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:13 pm

nicko wrote:When it come to Military tactics quill knows about as much as a Girl Guide !

  Yes...we know nicko, you still love your horse.

Laughing

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:14 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:They were still soldiers, called Navy Seals, an elite unit like the British SBS

But, you are deliberately evading the point.

Didge wrote:Well the view that soldiers are out out of date is sheer nonsense and for many reasons. You cannot control a system without boots on the ground

Do you think the soldiers should ride horses, too?  Tactics change, and as they do the entire nature of warfare changes.  Obama brilliantly grasped this.

Now, you're fond of questions, riddle me this: which was more successful, 1) the Iraq war; or 2) the taking of Usuma bin Laden?  The Iraq war was started by Republicans, and followed the old style of mêlée confrontations.  Bin Laden was taken by the new style of small, strategically focused units.

With bin Laden, the war was on and over in one day.  The Iraq/Afghanistan war was started in 2003 and is still going on.  And you are arguing to us that the war without end is superior?  Gd. luck with that.


1) Why do they need to ride horses, when they can enter battle in helicopters?

2) Even more a dumb point, as neither were sucessful, when he could have been eliminated under Clinton. Clinton, used the same poor policy as Obama, and allowed the Taliban to rule and oppress people.

Roosevelt and Trueman would be turning over in their graves

You see this is why I do not count you as educated, as when did the actual war on terror start?

I will give you a clue, it happened in the democrat President years

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:17 pm

Original Quill wrote:
nicko wrote:When it come to Military tactics quill knows about as much as a Girl Guide !

  Yes...we know nicko, you still love your horse.

Laughing


You mean you are jealouse of the size of his hose pipe

Seriously mate, how fucking stupid are you looking here

Push comes to shove, how many here would look to you for miltary tactics?


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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:31 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

  Yes...we know nicko, you still love your horse.

Laughing


You mean you are jealouse of the size of his hose pipe

Seriously mate, how fucking stupid are you looking here

Push comes to shove, how many here would look to you for miltary tactics?


Didge wrote:Seriously mate, how fucking stupid are you looking here

Is that what is important to you...how you are looking? Such a narcissist...I'd be embarrassed if I were you.

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If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:34 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:


You mean you are jealouse of the size of his hose pipe

Seriously mate, how fucking stupid are you looking here

Push comes to shove, how many here would look to you for miltary tactics?


Didge wrote:Seriously mate, how fucking stupid are you looking here

Is that what is important to you...how you are looking?   Such a narcissist...I'd be embarrassed if I were you.


If only that was the case Quill, but no

What matters here, is simple showing how dumb your lies are

Now, as you want to talk about me, which proves to me, you have lost the debate

Knock yourself out buddy, doing so

Laughing

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:27 pm

CBS News wrote:Turkish leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan gives no evidence, but calls Jamal Khashoggi killing "political murder"

Last Updated Oct 23, 2018 10:23 AM EDT

ANKARA, Turkey -- The Turkish president presented no new evidence to the world on Tuesday from his country's investigation into the killing of Saudi writer Jamal Khashoggi, as skepticism intensified about Saudi Arabia's account that he died accidentally in its consulate in Istanbul. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan had said he would "go into detail" about the case that has shocked the world and raised suspicions that a Saudi hit squad planned Khashoggi's killing after he walked into the consulate on Oct. 2, and then attempted to cover it up.

The key piece of evidence -- which, if it exists, the Turks have been keeping to themselves -- is a purported audio recording of the killing itself. Turkish officials have leaked gruesome details of the alleged recording to the media over the past two weeks. However, both the Turks and U.S. officials say no such audio has been shared, and thus far its existence has not been proven.

Erdogan said on Monday that he would reveal to the world the "naked truth" about what happened in the Saudi consulate, but addressing lawmakers in the Turkish parliament on Tuesday, the Turkish leader added little more than rhetoric to the scandal, accusing the Saudi government of a "savage," premeditated "political murder," but offering no solid evidence to back the claim. He did not mention any audio or video evidence in the case.

Erdogan was welcomed to the floor of the Turkish Parliament with applause from lawmakers of his own party on Tuesday. He first "honored the memory" of Khashoggi and extended his condolences to the journalist's wife and family.

The Turkish leader said Kahashoggi's killing was "planned and executed" by the Saudi government.

He said the first thing the 15-member Saudi team, which arrived on Oct. 2 via private jet in Istanbul, did upon reaching the consulate, was to disable the video cameras in the building.

Erdogan also said Turkish investigators established quickly that Khashoggi had not left the consulate building, as the Saudis claimed in the days immediately after the journalist's disappearance, which set in motion an official investigation by a Turkish prosecutor.

Erdogan dismissed Saudi Arabia's claims thus far -- that Khashoggi's killing was accidental and resulted from a "fist fight" -- as attempts to obscure the truth. He said Saudi Arabia's efforts to "hide" behind diplomatic immunity had not thwarted Turkey's investigation.

"To blame such an incident on a handful of security and intelligence members would not satisfy us or the international community," Erdogan said. "Saudi Arabia has taken an important step by admitting the murder. As of now we expect of them to openly bring to light those responsible -- from the highest ranked to the lowest -- and to bring them to justice."

Erdogan suggested the Saudis allow the 18 people named by the kingdom as suspects in the case be put on trial in Turkey.

After his speech, Erdogan had presented more questions than answers; wondering aloud why Saudi officials' story had changed so many times since Oct. 2, where Khashoggi's body is now, and who is the "local collaborator" cited by Saudi officials as disposing of the body after the killing.

Khashoggi's sons meet the king and the crown prince
As Erdogan spoke in Ankara, Saudi King Salman and his son Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman -- the man strongly suspected by Turkish officials and some senior U.S. lawmakers of sending a team to kill Khashoggi -- met the slain journalist's sons in Riyadh and had their photos taken shaking their hands.

An image released on Oct. 23, 2018 by Saudi Arabia's state-run SPA news agency shows Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (right) shaking hands with Salah Khashoggi, the son of slain Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, in Riyadh. HANDOUT
Saudi's state-run SPA news agency published photos of the encounters and said the two senior-most royals, "expressed their deepest condolences and sympathy to the family and relatives of the late Jamal Khashoggi."

The SPA report said Sahl bin Ahmed Khashoggi and Salah bin Jamal Khashoggi, "expressed their great thanks" for the condolences from the royals, whose family have enjoyed absolute power in the kingdom for almost 100 years.

Reports claim video link with top Prince Salman aid
Unnamed officials with connections to the Saudi royal family told various media outlets on Monday that Prince Salman's close aid, Saud al-Qahtani, was beamed into the room of the Istanbul consulate on Oct. 2 where Khashoggi was being detained, via video call. Turkish newspaper Sabah, which is aligned with Erdogan, reported that Qahtani insulted Khashoggi via video link, before telling his operatives in the room to, "bring me the head of the dog."

Saudi Arabia has said Kashoggi, a critic of the Saudi royal family, was killed in a "fistfight" with officials sent to encourage him to return to the kingdom.

Turkish media and officials say the 59-year-old Washington Post columnist was killed and dismembered by a 15-man Saudi hit squad which included operatives close to Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

The Saudi government insists Prince Salman was unaware of the operation and that it was the team on the ground in Istanbul which overstepped its duties and killed him accidentally, purportedly by placing him in a chokehold. Khashoggi's body was then rolled into a carpet and given to a "local collaborator," one Saudi official told CBS News. The official said the body was not cut up into pieces, as reports from Turkish sources have alleged.

Erdogan insisted on Tuesday that the Saudis must identify the "collaborator."

As CBS News correspondent Holly Williams reports, there's been no word yet on where Khashoggi's body actually ended up, but Turkish police found a Mercedes Benz, reportedly registered to the Saudi consulate and apparently abandoned about 10 miles away in an underground parking lot, on Monday. The vehicle was being searched.

Erdogan was expected to speak on Tuesday as Saudi Arabia hosts a glitzy investment conference that many dignitaries have decided to skip because of the scandal. The kingdom's Energy Minister, Khalid al-Falih, said on stage at the conference that his country was in "crisis" over the journalist's "abhorrent" killing. It was not clear whether Crown Prince Salman would take the stage at any point during the conference.

"As we know these are difficult days. We are going through a crisis," Falih said at the Future Investment Initiative, calling Khashoggi's killing "abhorrent"

Turkey says it would cooperate with independent probe
Turkey's foreign minister said on Tuesday, meanwhile, that his country would cooperate with international bodies if they were to launch an independent probe into Khashoggi's killing.

In an interview with state-run Anadolu Agency, Mevlut Cavusoglu also reiterated on Tuesday that Turkey had not shared any evidence concerning the Saudi writer's death at the Saudi consulate with any country, but he added that there may have been "an exchange of views between intelligence organizations."

Cavusoglu said: "If a request for an international investigation is made ... we would cooperate."

CIA Director Gina Haspel is traveling to Turkey as part of the investigation into the killing of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, CBS News learned on Monday.  

Earlier Monday, Trump told reporters that the U.S. had "top intelligence people in Turkey," but he didn't specify who he meant.

"We're going to see what we have," Mr. Trump said. "I'll know a lot tomorrow, they'll be coming back tonight or tomorrow morning. But we have people in Saudi Arabia."

©️ 2018 CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Bin Salman is a close friend of Jared Kushner, son-in-law to failing President Trump, and debtor to the Saudi Royal Family for real estate investments, which begs the question: was Kushner in on this murder?  Was Trump?

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:37 pm

Saddam Hussein and the baathists = left wing socialists.


And they held a firm grip over any islamists in Iraq too, promoting a secular style of govt that protected other religious minorities!



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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:19 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Saddam Hussein and the baathists = left wing socialists.

And they held a firm grip over any islamists in Iraq too, promoting a secular style of govt that protected other religious minorities!

The Baathists became al Qaeda in Iraq, which became ISIS, which is now pretty much defunct.  I don't know how calling an Islamic dictatorship a kind of "left wing socialist" regime adds anything.

Trump is trying to find an enemy in Iran, but they do not seem to be interested in playing a rerun of hostilities.  The US (under Trump) might pull out, but the rest of Europe seems to be carrying on, carrying on.  Pulling out would ordinarily mean returning to sanctions, but the sanctions won't work if the cartel doesn't hang together.  Trump's strategy is just for show, and that means it's just for domestic consumption.

But, you know...carry on.

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:27 am

Not true at all... there was no al queada in Iraq until well after the Iraq war clusterfuck...



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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:44 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Not true at all... there was no al queada in Iraq until well after the Iraq war clusterfuck...

That's not my recollection.  My recollection is closer to Victoria Barber's thesis, The Evolution of Al Qaeda’s Global Network and Al Qaeda Core’s Position Within it: A Network Analysis, or the Terrorism Research Initiative.  Her findings are:

Universiteit Leiden The Netherlands wrote:Conclusion

While Al Qaeda Core’s network of affiliates has certainly grown over time, the data do not support the doomsday image of a vast and amorphous enemy that its reach implies. Rather, the network ultimately appears to have overextended itself for Al Qaeda Core’s purposes, and the group has gradually lost control.
http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/index.php/pot/article/view/469/html

If anything, al Qaeda has lost it's touch since the end of the war is 2009.

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:41 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Saddam Hussein and the baathists = left wing socialists.


And they held a firm grip over any islamists in Iraq too, promoting a secular style of govt that protected other religious minorities!



Total bullshit, Tommy...


Once again, you simply muddy the waters by falsely claiming that black is white, and right is left...

Just because some corrupt and autocratic tyrannical regime labels itself as "socialist" doesn't make it so..

In these cases, 'actions speak louder than words'.

Those regimes lie clearly in the authoritarian/capitalist sector on any political spectrum..

You clearly don't have a clue about real world political definitions, Tommy -- as opposed to your usual neo-nazi delusions...

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:39 pm

Quill...


Iraq

The United States went to war against Iraq in 2003, based in part on the assertion - later debunked - that al-Qaeda had ties to dictator Saddam Hussein.

That claim turned out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

In victory, the US disbanded the Iraqi army, putting hundreds of thousands of disgruntled men with military training on the street. Many rose up against what was perceived as a foreign invasion, feeding an insurgency that has never stopped. The insurgency gave birth to al-Qaeda in Iraq, a local affiliate that pioneered the use of terrorist attacks on Shiite Muslims, regarded as apostates by Sunni extremists.

In its 2007 "surge", the US in concert with pro-government Sunni militias, largely defeated al-Qaeda in Iraq. But by 2010, the group was "fundamentally the same" as it had been before the boost in troops, according to General Ray Odierno, the top US commander in Iraq at the time.

The 2011 uprisings in neighbouring Syria gave the group the breathing space it needed. Two years later it emerged as Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, also known as ISIS, and split from al-Qaeda's central leadership.

It also launched an audacious offensive that saw large swaths of Iraq fall into the hands of the jihadists. Although Islamic State has since lost most of its territory, it remains a threat.







And for fleakeeper...


As with the original Ba'ath Party, the Iraqi-led Ba'ath Party's key slogans were "A single Arab nation with an eternal message" and "Unity, freedom, socialism".

The Arab Ba'ath Party merged with the Arab Socialist Movement, led by Akram al-Hawrani, in 1952 to form the Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party. The newly formed party was a relative success, and became the second-largest party in the Syrian parliament in the 1954 election.

And...


Hussein himself was a Sunni Muslim; Sunni Muslims comprise about 35 percent of Iraqis. Since Hussein'sgovernment was a minoritygovernment. Other minorities, including Christians, “felt much moreprotected under the Hussein regime than they do currently,” says Brian Katulis of the Center for American Progress.14 Oct 2011



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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

Post by Original Quill on Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:31 pm

Sleep

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Re: What happened to Jamal Khashoggi?

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