Should Boris be booted?

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Should Boris be booted?

Post by Syl on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:46 am

Boris Johnson is being asked to at least apologise, at worst resign or be sacked over the piece he wrote in Mondays Daily Telegraph.
He likened Burka wearing women to resembling bank robbers and letter boxes.

Should May get rid of bungling Boris, or will this just enhance his popularity with his following?



https://news.sky.com/story/tory-peer-remove-whip-from-boris-over-burka-remarks-11464276

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Syl on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:54 am

This is what he actually wrote.
He was defending the womans right to wear the Burka in the UK, disagreeing withDenmarks recent law to ban it in public.




"If you say that it is weird and bullying to expect women to cover their faces, then I totally agree.
I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."
And he added that "a female student turned up at school or at a university lecture looking like a bank robber" he would ask her to remove it to speak to her.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Andy on Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:53 pm

He is an egotistical Bullingdon bully boy . The best thing May has done has been to remove the Eton /Bullingdon chums from cabinet. .
God forbid us if Boris becomes leader with JRM as his deputy.

.
Both need shagging with the rough end of a  pineapple.  But you would feel sorry for the fruit.

But, yes, an apology is in order or she can remove his whip.
Both the Conservative chair and the PM cannot be wrong.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by nicko on Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:00 pm

Boris hit the nail on the head with the "post box" remark, most people would agree with that. The other part that
"They look like Bank robbers" was ill advised !
Why they wear Burka's in this country is just to take the piss, Mohammed said, and I quote from the Koran,

Women should dress modestly, nothing was said about them looking like "post boxes" that is down to their Menfolk controlling them. If we had Boris as Prime Minister and Mogg as Chanceller it would be a million times better than Cobyn and his friends, all terrorist lovers !
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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Andy on Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:32 pm

It would be like having a 2qst century version of Hitler and Goering and the start of a 4th Reich.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:04 pm



Big bad Boris; what a boofhead...

Could potentially be the best asset that the Opposition parties have in the British Parliament..

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Original Quill on Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:20 pm

All surgeons should remove their masks...
SCUBA divers should not wear masks...
Firefighters must be forced to remove their masks...
HAZMAT suits should not have masks...
All oxygen masks should be removed from airliners...
NASA spacesuits should not have helmets...
Bio lab workers must remove their headgear...

Let's see, have we adequately protected ourselves from all bank robber doubles?

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:44 pm

Original Quill wrote:All surgeons should remove their masks...
SCUBA divers should not wear masks...
Firefighters must be forced to remove their masks...
HAZMAT suits should not have masks...
All oxygen masks should be removed from airliners...
NASA spacesuits should not have helmets...
Bio lab workers must remove their headgear...

Let's see, have we adequately protected ourselves from all bank robber doubles?

Yes, because all those people wear their masks or headgear when they go to the bank obviously.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Original Quill on Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:57 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:All surgeons should remove their masks...
SCUBA divers should not wear masks...
Firefighters must be forced to remove their masks...
HAZMAT suits should not have masks...
All oxygen masks should be removed from airliners...
NASA spacesuits should not have helmets...
Bio lab workers must remove their headgear...

Let's see, have we adequately protected ourselves from all bank robber doubles?

Yes, because all those people wear their masks or headgear when they go to the bank obviously.

By your reckoning, beards should be banned. The point is, the face cover is the least of he teller's problems when he's got a gun in his face.

It's a surrogate argument for white supremacy. Attack the clothing of people of color, and create a dog whistle issue. When Trayvon Martin was murdered, many knuckle-draggers were quick to criticize his hoodie sweatshirt because it hid his face...um, not that anyone could recognize him--they all look alike and all.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Lord Foul on Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:02 pm

Original Quill wrote:All surgeons should remove their masks...
SCUBA divers should not wear masks...
Firefighters must be forced to remove their masks...
HAZMAT suits should not have masks...
All oxygen masks should be removed from airliners...
NASA spacesuits should not have helmets...
Bio lab workers must remove their headgear...

Let's see, have we adequately protected ourselves from all bank robber doubles?

what a load of infantile drivel....given that not one of these wear their face covering in public, but at the scene of their work.......

sometimes Quill you just PROVE the L/W are morons

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by HoratioTarr on Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:37 pm

Original Quill wrote:All surgeons should remove their masks...
SCUBA divers should not wear masks...
Firefighters must be forced to remove their masks...
HAZMAT suits should not have masks...
All oxygen masks should be removed from airliners...
NASA spacesuits should not have helmets...
Bio lab workers must remove their headgear...

Let's see, have we adequately protected ourselves from all bank robber doubles?

What an idiotic set of comparisons.

I look at it like this. There are women being forced to veil up in countries that give them no choices. They must cover up from head to toe in public like a dirty secret, like something to be ashamed of, like a pariah. They are beaten and reviled if they fail to conform. The body veil has the same misogynistic ethos as cloistering women when they have their periods as though that too is something filthy, repulsive and shameful. Basically, the burqa is a device of subjugation and control created by men who fear the sexuality of their women and other men who can't control their sexual impulses.

Those who defend the right of women to wear the burqa under the banner of religious freedom gloss over the fact that this “freedom” is often dictated by social pressure. When a person is indoctrinated, they often embrace what oppresses them as a psychological means to cope.

This country offers freedom for women to be the equal of men. Every time a woman dons that body veil she's betraying those women who have no choices. She'll probably tell you that this is her choice. And she may well believe it too. But it's not. It never has been and never will be. It's as medieval as the chastity belt.

Having said all this, if a woman chooses to wear the burqa in this country that's part and parcel of our laws that she's free to do so. But the rest of Europe are not so tolerant. One has to ask why?
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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Original Quill on Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:53 pm

HT wrote:What an idiotic set of comparisons.

Yet, so appropriate.  The idiocy is in the original premise put forth by Boris.  What he is saying, ultimately, is that a cultural identity should be obliterated.

As I've pointed out, it's pretextual reasoning.  Boris doesn't care any more about gender rights than you.  It's a phony cigar, to get at his hatred of people of color.  He doesn't care about burkas.  He wants to criticize the people who wear them.

As for women's rights, you are being ethnocentric.  You are leveling western, white-supremacist values on other cultures, as if they give a shit.  Probably the strongest defense of burkas comes from the Muslim women themselves, who feel safer and more secure in them.  And yes, they think the mystery of it all is quite feminine.

Why not leave 'em alone and let them have their own values.  We tolerate radical women's fashions all right.  We've survived bikinis and short-shorts.  What's with this sudden proscription of womens wear when it comes to burkas?  After all, who made you god?

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:18 pm

Original Quill wrote:All surgeons should remove their masks...
SCUBA divers should not wear masks...
Firefighters must be forced to remove their masks...
HAZMAT suits should not have masks...
All oxygen masks should be removed from airliners...
NASA spacesuits should not have helmets...
Bio lab workers must remove their headgear...

Let's see, have we adequately protected ourselves from all bank robber doubles?

Do any of the above cover their faces in Banks?

At security at the airport?

Teaching children?

So out of all your examples, which would be allowed to cover their face when making a withdrawl or deposit in a bank?

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:20 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Original Quill wrote:All surgeons should remove their masks...
SCUBA divers should not wear masks...
Firefighters must be forced to remove their masks...
HAZMAT suits should not have masks...
All oxygen masks should be removed from airliners...
NASA spacesuits should not have helmets...
Bio lab workers must remove their headgear...

Let's see, have we adequately protected ourselves from all bank robber doubles?

What an idiotic set of comparisons.  

I look at it like this.   There are women being forced to veil up in countries that give them no choices.  They must cover up from head to toe in public like a dirty secret, like something to be ashamed of, like a pariah.  They are beaten and reviled if they fail to conform.   The body veil has the same misogynistic ethos as cloistering women when they have their periods as though that too is something filthy, repulsive and shameful.   Basically, the burqa is a device of subjugation and control created by men who fear the sexuality of their women and other men who can't control their sexual impulses.  

Those who defend the right of women to wear the burqa under the banner of religious freedom gloss over the fact that this “freedom” is often dictated by social pressure.  When a person is indoctrinated, they often embrace what oppresses them as a psychological means to cope.  

This country offers freedom for women to be the equal of men.   Every time a woman dons that body veil she's betraying those women who have no choices.   She'll probably tell you that this is her choice.   And she may well believe it too.   But it's not.  It never has been and never will be.   It's as medieval as the chastity belt.  

Having said all this, if a woman chooses to wear the burqa in this country that's part and parcel of our laws that she's free to do so.  But the rest of Europe are not so tolerant.  One has to ask why?

Great post and i will add one point

Those who believe its a choice to wear is nothing of the sort. As they believe its ordained to wear and if they do not, they will be punished in an after life.

That is coercion.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Original Quill on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:23 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:All surgeons should remove their masks...
SCUBA divers should not wear masks...
Firefighters must be forced to remove their masks...
HAZMAT suits should not have masks...
All oxygen masks should be removed from airliners...
NASA spacesuits should not have helmets...
Bio lab workers must remove their headgear...

Let's see, have we adequately protected ourselves from all bank robber doubles?

Do any of the above cover their faces in Banks?

At security at the airport?

Teaching children?

So out of all your examples, which would be allowed to cover their face when making a withdrawl or deposit in a bank?

Such a phony pretext for hatred. With a gun in his face, the bank teller isn't worried about fashions. He wouldn'd recognize them in any case...they all look alike. Wink

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:24 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

Do any of the above cover their faces in Banks?

At security at the airport?

Teaching children?

So out of all your examples, which would be allowed to cover their face when making a withdrawl or deposit in a bank?

Such a phony pretext for hatred.  With a gun in his face, the bank teller isn't worried about fashions.  He wouldn'd recognize them in any case...they all look alike.  Wink

How about this bank teller?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2914727/Police-hunt-bank-robber-disguised-BURKA-sunglasses-high-street-raid.html

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:25 pm

You also still never answered my question

Do any of the above cover their faces in Banks?

At security at the airport?

Teaching children?

So out of all your examples, which would be allowed to cover their face when making a withdrawl or deposit in a bank?

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Original Quill on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:29 pm

Didge wrote:You also still never answered my question

Your questions are silly. You don't present anecdotal evidence to a general concern, if that's what it is. You can't generalize from specifics.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:31 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:You also still never answered my question

Your questions are silly.  You don't present anecdotal evidence to a general concern, if that's what it is.  You can't generalize from specifics.

You mean my question, made your post redundant, being as it was ridiculous your post

The reality is this, women can cover their face at a bank, or the airport etc, if a Muslim

No man can do so

Sexism

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by nicko on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:36 pm

Quill, do you ever admit your wrong ?
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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Syl on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:52 pm

Whether you think the burka should be banned or not (I dont and neither does Boris) whether you think the full face burka is a horrible item of clothing, and most none Muslim people seem to think it is, his remarks were wrong.

He criticised the women who wear it, not the actual item of clothing, and I doubt he did that by accident.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:01 pm

Syl wrote:Whether you think the burka should be banned or not (I dont and neither does Boris) whether you think the full face burka is a horrible item of clothing, and most none Muslim people seem to think it is, his remarks were wrong.

He criticised the women who wear it, not the actual item of clothing, and I doubt he did that by accident.

I dont think it should be banned, but like everyone else in a bank, teaching children at an airport or stopped by the Police they should take it off.

Now i can certainly reason why its certainly wrong to wear and its based on a belief that either forces women to wear by the state or husbands etc. Or its taught that they will suffer if they do not.

That is hardly a choice.

Its also very poor when speaking one to one in conversation, being as facial expression play a part in conversations.

Hence why people should speak openly on why its wrong.

Was Boris wrong to say what he did?

The answer is emphatically no. As tell me why should such a backward item of clothing that controls women through poor beliefs be given any form of respect?

Its a symbol of oppression, where countless women are forced to wear or scared not to, as they believe they will suffer in a make believe hell fire

So tell me, how can anyone respect that?

It should be rightly condemned, for the liberty of all women

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Vintage on Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:27 pm

Burkhas are not a religious requirement in the Quoran neither are they banned by it. Clothes should be modest ie not so tight as to reveal the body beneath nor transparent, the face and the hands are free to be shown. The wives of the Prophet began wearing face veils because they were being impeded in their duties when leaving the house, by petitioners eager for them to pass their requests to Mohammed. According to some of the instructions handed down that I've read about anyway.
Women in most Islamic countries prior to the Iranian revolution and the invasion of Afghanistan in the 60's? managed in what I would call ordinary clothes, Long skirts/dresses, baggy trousers and tops, some wore scarves some didn't, some wore loose veils looped over the head and appeared in quite vibrant colours, some did  wear cloaks to go out. The face veil seemed to originate in the area that is now Turkey worn by high status women only so that the peasant couldn't gaze upon the high born ladies dazzling beauty. China on the other hand would have a runner going in front of any high born women telling the peasants to bow down, face on the ground kind of thing not to see the person pass.
The burkha has not only become a fundamentalist tool of oppression but also a political statement.
What would happen if  someone decided they wished to live their lives completely naked in modern society, it's not allowed to be completely clothes free in public and is seen as extreme, why should being totally covered including your face be seen as anything less than the other extreme. If you wish to dress modestly so be it  , a hat or a scarf isn't a problem but the face should not be covered especially in countries with a very different culture and dress code, tolerance swings both ways, western cultures give a bit of lea way to other cultures and it should work the other way too, it would be nice if Muslim women, as many do in fact, be more adaptable in their clothing while still remaining modest, many Christian Jewish, Hindu and non religious women too. As for the burkha or hijab being a protection from sexual harassment ask Egyptian women about that, apparently just about every woman has been sexually harassed verbally or actually, at some time while going about her business in the market.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:50 pm

Interesting points Vintage.

The point is this.

If someone from the KKK, wore their outfit. Many would rightly condemn such an outfit as a symbol of opression, racism and hate. Nobody rightly here would give this the time of day and would condemn and ridicule.

We have the Burka, not even Islamic, but a tradition that has its origins in the Nejd of Saudi Arabia. Women in Saudi Arabia outside the Nejd before 1970 did not wear this. It took the rise of Wahhabism to power within Saudi, to islamify the Burka into islam. With Saudi money the Wahhabist ideology has been exported into many Muslim and Non Muslim countries.

Its a symbol of segregation between men and women. Seperation between Muslims and Non-Muslims. A complete rejection of acceptance, tolernace and others. It is a culture that treats women as no better than cattle. That they are a sexualized object that has to be covered.

Its a symbol of oppression and should be condemned by all as we do the KKK outfit.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:06 pm

Treyvon Martin wasn't murdered quill... he was violently attacking someone... and was killed in self defence...!


Come on quill... you have even posted the definition of murder on the other thread...!


And you know full well that a court has already ruled on this, as I have said above!



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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Vintage on Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:10 pm

I can only agree with you Didge.
Some wear it to show how religiously faithful they are, seems rather arrogant to me its more 'look at me I'm so close to god'.
Surely the depth of your faith is well known to your god and should only be seen by others by your actions towards them.
If someone wishes to dedicate their lives to god do it properly and take yourself to a religious order or become a hermit of some kind so you can devout yourself entirely to religious duties and not shove it in other peoples faces.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:33 pm

Vintage wrote:I can only agree with you Didge.
Some wear it to show how religiously faithful they are, seems rather arrogant to me its more 'look at me I'm so close to god'.
Surely the depth of your faith is well known to your  god and should only be seen by others by your actions towards them.
If someone wishes to dedicate their lives to god do it properly and take yourself to a religious order or become a hermit of some kind so you can devout yourself entirely to religious duties and not shove it in other peoples faces.  


Completely agree

Its like you said earlier Vintage. Its really a political symbol. A symbol of islamism, which denies rights and criminalizes Homosexuals, those who leave Islam, those who are critical of the religion, women etc.

Nobody should defend such an oppressive symbol.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by eddie on Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:46 pm

Interesting that again, certain people think he was racist or wrong yet......


http://www.newsfixboard.com/t24883-new-york-times-stands-by-editorial-board-hire-despite-racist-tweets


I dunno. Goalposts really are moveable in a game of forum football.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:19 pm

eddie wrote:Interesting that again, certain people think he was racist or wrong yet......


http://www.newsfixboard.com/t24883-new-york-times-stands-by-editorial-board-hire-despite-racist-tweets


I dunno. Goalposts really are moveable in a game of forum football.

Indeed, but what gets me. Is how is it even racist to riducule the the Burka, which is a blatant oppressive symbol?

Also even some White British Salafist Muslim converts wear this oppressive symbol.

Its not even Islamic

Anyway have a read




Muslim women who wear burkas should be defended in the same way as Christians who wear a crucifix, a senior Conservative has said amid a growing Tory row over Boris Johnson’s comments on face veils.

Ruth Davidson, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said debate over wearing burkas and crosses “is the same argument but in a different faith” and so they should both have the same “parameters”.

Jeremy Wright, the Culture Secretary, said it was wrong to label face coverings “oppressive”, but the Conservatives were accused of losing touch with voters as a poll showed 60 per cent of Britons think burkas should be banned in public places.

A former deputy mayor of London who is of Pakistani descent said the Tory leadership was siding with “a minority fringe of Islamists” who label any criticism of Islamic practice as Islamophobia, while another prominent Muslim said the burka “deserves to be ridiculed”.

There were also accusations that the burka row is being used as a proxy for Remain-supporting MPs to attack Mr Johnson in an attempt to kill off his leadership ambitions, after arch Europhile Dominic Grieve said he would quit the Party if Mr Johnson ever became leader.

As the Muslim Tory peer Lord Sheikh called for “severe action” against Mr Johnson, Lord Pickles, the Remain-supporting former communities secretary, said the former foreign secretary had been given more “slack” than other Conservatives would be.

There were accusations that Mr Johnson’s critics were being hypocritical after it emerged that some of them had made critical comments about the wearing of burkas in the past.

Mr Johnson had said burkas were “oppressive” and made women look like “bank robbers” or “letter boxes” in his column for The Telegraph on Monday, in which he opposed a ban on wearing them.

The Prime Minister told him to apologise but he made it clear on Tuesday he did not feel any need to do so. He made no further comment on the matter on Wednesday.

Arguments over whether Mr Johnson’s choice of language was wrong gave way to a wider debate over whether Britain should follow France, Denmark and Belgium in banning burkas in public.

Some Muslims argue that the Koran requires women to dress modestly and cover their heads and bodies, but opponents of the burka say there is no specific requirement in Islamic texts for women to wear them, and accuse Muslim men of forcing women to cover themselves from head to toe.

Ms Davidson, who is widely seen as a future Tory leader, described Mr Johnson’s comments as “gratuitously offensive”. She said: “If you use the analogy of Christianity, would you ever write in the Telegraph that you should have a debate about banning Christians from wearing crucifixes?

"It's the same argument but it's in a different faith so why are the parameters different for one faith and not the other?”

She added: “I think it's also not been shown through history that when men make sweeping statements about what women should or shouldn't wear that it goes well for them.

Mr Wright was asked by the BBC about Mr Johnson saying face veils were oppressive, and replied: “That’s the sort of language I think we should try to avoid using.”

Lord Sheikh said the Tory Party should remove the whip from Mr Johnson, adding: “Why not? He’s not a super-human being, he’s a member of the Party.”

A poll by Sky News, however, suggests the Conservative leadership is out of touch with voters. It found that 60 per cent of people do not believe his comments were racist, with the same proportion supporting a ban on the burka, even though Mr Johnson is opposed to one.

Maajid Nawaz, the reformist Muslim and head of the left of centre Quilliam think tank, which focuses on counter-extremism, said the burka deserves to be "ridiculed".

He said: "This is the uniform of medieval patriarchal tyranny. It victim-blames women for their beauty. Where this is enforced it symbolises violent misogyny. I’m not advocating banning this monstrosity but I refuse to defend it. It deserves to be ridiculed, not the women inside it.

"Women defending this have Stockholm syndrome. It is not racist to challenge religion (which is an idea, not a race). It is our civic duty. It is not offensive to remind everyone that this isn’t normal. It is offensive to advocate for this to become normalised."

One senior Conservative warned that Mrs May’s response to Mr Johnson could prove to be an "own goal" for the party because “it sets the bar incredibly low for future investigations into the actions of MPs and councillors”.

Munira Mirza, who served as Mr Johnson’s deputy mayor for culture when he was Mayor of London, said: “There are many people in this country who are uncomfortable about the burka. When people argue we should use more sensitive language what they are really saying is let's not be critical at all, let's not offend, let's not criticise this practice because it upsets Muslims. It's a serious problem.

"What's happening is there is a minority fringe of Islamists that pipe up every time someone tries to criticise any part of Islamic practise that call this Islamophobia. What's happening is that the establishment including the leadership of the party are siding with them, are saying you cannot use this kind of language. It's unfortunate for Muslims as well.”

She added: “The reality is there is a political fight here. People who frankly couldn’t care less about the issues that Muslim women face are piling into Boris because Boris said it.

"These are views he has expressed before. Views that others have said. Ken Clarke described it as a bag. I don't remember Anna Soubry, Sayeeda Warsi and others calling for his resignation.”

Remain-supporting Ms Soubry, who said that in her 16-year career she “never saw an armed robber who looked like a woman in a burka”, has previously described wearing the burka as “a peculiar choice”.

The Labour Party, which cited Mr Johnson’s comments as evidence of Islamophobia in the Conservative Party, faced accusations of hypocrisy after it emerged that Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, had said in the past that she would not want someone wearing a burka to look after her children or her elderly mother.

Sadiq Khan, the Labour Mayor of London, has in the past described face veils as “insidious” and expressed concern that “people are starting to think it’s appropriate to treat women differently”.

Conor Burns, an ally of Mr Johnson, accused Tory colleagues of jumping on a “bandwagon” and being “desperate not to get left behind”.

Philip Lee, the former justice minister, said: “There is a question about whether our society should adopt cultural practices in which women dress a certain way to satisfy a specific male interpretation of a sacred text.”

Tory MP Nadine Dorries criticised MPs who defend the burka while wanting to ban “grid girls” from Formula 1 starting grids. She added: “You cannot expect a society that celebrates gay pride and embraces gay marriage to live harmoniously when condoning the suppression of women forced to cover up, segregate and become invisible.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/08/ruth-davidson-says-burkas-should-defended-like-christians-wearing/

Posted in full, as is a premium article.


Last edited by Didge on Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Vintage on Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:25 pm

I'm pretty definite about one thing wear what you want, even if you look terrible, who cares but don't cover your face in public and tell me its religious - its not. As I said its the same as going out naked on a regular basis and saying its your lifestyle so everyone else has too put up with it. We have certain limits in all things, we have an upper and lower limit including how one dresses or doesn't dress,
Fully naked bin public is not tolerated (that man has been arrested on a regular basis for trying to live as a nudist in general life) so why being totally covered ie your face covered, is equally unacceptable in western culture. I think it tends to be a deliberate insult and a middle finger to western culture, especially given the attitude of the rape gangs and their wives to the way western women and girls dress and behave, if anyone finds western culture unacceptable, there are plenty of places they could be more comfortable I'm sure.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:35 pm

Vintage wrote:I'm pretty definite about one thing wear what you want, even if you look terrible, who cares but don't cover your face in public and tell me its religious - its not. 


I back that completely and it also means we should be able to condemn and ridicule something that is clearly oppressive

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Raggamuffin on Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:40 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes, because all those people wear their masks or headgear when they go to the bank obviously.

By your reckoning, beards should be banned.  The point is, the face cover is the least of he teller's problems when he's got a gun in his face.

It's a surrogate argument for white supremacy.  Attack the clothing of people of color, and create a dog whistle issue.  When Trayvon Martin was murdered, many knuckle-draggers were quick to criticize his hoodie sweatshirt because it hid his face...um, not that anyone could recognize him--they all look alike and all.

Beards don't cover a whole face though. The point is that your comparisons were silly.

Trayvon Martin wasn't murdered. His hoodie didn't cover his face anyway.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Syl on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:Whether you think the burka should be banned or not (I dont and neither does Boris) whether you think the full face burka is a horrible item of clothing, and most none Muslim people seem to think it is, his remarks were wrong.

He criticised the women who wear it, not the actual item of clothing, and I doubt he did that by accident.

I dont think it should be banned, but like everyone else in a bank, teaching children at an airport or stopped by the Police they should take it off.

Now i can certainly reason why its certainly wrong to wear and its based on a belief that either forces women to wear by the state or husbands etc. Or its taught that they will suffer if they do not.

That is hardly a choice.

Its also very poor when speaking one to one in conversation, being as facial expression play a part in conversations.

Hence why people should speak openly on why its wrong.

Was Boris wrong to say what he did?

The answer is emphatically no. As tell me why should such a backward item of clothing that controls women through poor beliefs be given any form of respect?

Its a symbol of oppression, where countless women are forced to wear or scared not to, as they believe they will suffer in a make believe hell fire

So tell me, how can anyone respect that?

It should be rightly condemned, for the liberty of all women
I agree that women should remove the full face covering for security reasons, when driving, or for certain jobs, teaching for eg...thats common sense.

I believe women should have the choice to cover themselves if they choose to do so.....what business is it of anyone else?

Boris Johnson, along with everyone else has the right to say he finds the burka unattractive and unnecessary, he has no right to compare the women who wear it to letter boxes and bankrobbers.
Would you say a woman in a headscarf looks like a scrubber, or a woman in a mini slirt looks like a slag?....same difference.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:14 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

I dont think it should be banned, but like everyone else in a bank, teaching children at an airport or stopped by the Police they should take it off.

Now i can certainly reason why its certainly wrong to wear and its based on a belief that either forces women to wear by the state or husbands etc. Or its taught that they will suffer if they do not.

That is hardly a choice.

Its also very poor when speaking one to one in conversation, being as facial expression play a part in conversations.

Hence why people should speak openly on why its wrong.

Was Boris wrong to say what he did?

The answer is emphatically no. As tell me why should such a backward item of clothing that controls women through poor beliefs be given any form of respect?

Its a symbol of oppression, where countless women are forced to wear or scared not to, as they believe they will suffer in a make believe hell fire

So tell me, how can anyone respect that?

It should be rightly condemned, for the liberty of all women
I agree that women should remove the full face covering for security reasons, when driving, or for certain jobs, teaching for eg...thats common sense.

I believe women should have the choice to cover themselves if they choose to do so.....what business is it of anyone else?

Boris Johnson, along with everyone else has the right to say he finds the burka unattractive and unnecessary, he has no right to compare the women who wear it to letter boxes and bankrobbers.
Would you say a woman in a headscarf looks like a scrubber, or a woman in a mini slirt looks like a slag?....same difference.


He has every right to say how oppressive looking it is. Which is what he did by comparing it to a letter box and a bank robber, which is what bank robbers do, by masking their faces.

How is that wrong?

He never called them a slag or scrubber, so utterly irrelevant

He stated how they look like, not what they could or could not be

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:20 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

I dont think it should be banned, but like everyone else in a bank, teaching children at an airport or stopped by the Police they should take it off.

Now i can certainly reason why its certainly wrong to wear and its based on a belief that either forces women to wear by the state or husbands etc. Or its taught that they will suffer if they do not.

That is hardly a choice.

Its also very poor when speaking one to one in conversation, being as facial expression play a part in conversations.

Hence why people should speak openly on why its wrong.

Was Boris wrong to say what he did?

The answer is emphatically no. As tell me why should such a backward item of clothing that controls women through poor beliefs be given any form of respect?

Its a symbol of oppression, where countless women are forced to wear or scared not to, as they believe they will suffer in a make believe hell fire

So tell me, how can anyone respect that?

It should be rightly condemned, for the liberty of all women


I believe women should have the choice to cover themselves if they choose to do so.....what business is it of anyone else?



It is up to women what they wear, however, its a big issue if they are being forced. Either by people or coerced through fear.

So again

If someone from the KKK, wore their outfit. Many would rightly condemn such an outfit as a symbol of opression, racism and hate. Nobody rightly here would give this the time of day and would condemn and ridicule.

We have the Burka, not even Islamic, but a tradition that has its origins in the Nejd of Saudi Arabia. Women in Saudi Arabia outside the Nejd before 1970 did not wear this. It took the rise of Wahhabism to power within Saudi, to islamify the Burka into islam. With Saudi money the Wahhabist ideology has been exported into many Muslim and Non Muslim countries.

Its a symbol of segregation between men and women. Seperation between Muslims and Non-Muslims. A complete rejection of acceptance, tolernace and others. It is a culture that treats women as no better than cattle. That they are a sexualized object that has to be covered.

Its a symbol of oppression and should be condemned by all as we do the KKK outfit.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Syl on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:35 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:
I agree that women should remove the full face covering for security reasons, when driving, or for certain jobs, teaching for eg...thats common sense.

I believe women should have the choice to cover themselves if they choose to do so.....what business is it of anyone else?

Boris Johnson, along with everyone else has the right to say he finds the burka unattractive and unnecessary, he has no right to compare the women who wear it to letter boxes and bankrobbers.
Would you say a woman in a headscarf looks like a scrubber, or a woman in a mini slirt looks like a slag?....same difference.


He has every right to say how oppressive looking it is. Which is what he did by comparing it to a letter box and a bank robber, which is what bank robbers do, by masking their faces.

How is that wrong?

He never called them a slag or scrubber, so utterly irrelevant

He stated how they look like, not what they could or could not be
He specifically said the women who wore burkas looked like letter boxes and bank robbers....he was commenting on them not the clothes.

No difference to someone saying a woman looks like a scrubber or a slag.....he should have kept his distaste focused on  the clothes not the womenn who wear them....there is a big difference.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:39 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:


He has every right to say how oppressive looking it is. Which is what he did by comparing it to a letter box and a bank robber, which is what bank robbers do, by masking their faces.

How is that wrong?

He never called them a slag or scrubber, so utterly irrelevant

He stated how they look like, not what they could or could not be
He specifically said the women who wore burkas looked like letter boxes and bank robbers....he was commenting on them not the clothes.

No difference to someone saying a woman looks like a scrubber or a slag.....he should have kept his distaste focused on  the clothes not the womenn who wear them....there is a big difference.

he is right that they do look like letter boxes and even as seen bank robbers have dressed up to rob banks

Its completely different, as someone a scrubber or a slag is subjective, as you do not know them.

UNless you take the Islamist view that any white girl in western dress is a slag?

At the end of the day he never called them a slag or scrubber, so to misdirect with something very false is you being very PC here.

The Burka is a symbol of oppression and should be completely ridiculed

Blimey for years preists and nuns have been ridiculed and had the piss taken out of them for what they wear

Its a completely oppressive symbol the burka in every capacity and you would not hessitate in condemning an KKK racist wearing such an oppressive outfit

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Syl on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:43 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:


I believe women should have the choice to cover themselves if they choose to do so.....what business is it of anyone else?



It is up to women what they wear, however, its a big issue if they are being forced. Either by people or coerced through fear.

So again

If someone from the KKK, wore their outfit. Many would rightly condemn such an outfit as a symbol of opression, racism and hate. Nobody rightly here would give this the time of day and would condemn and ridicule.

We have the Burka, not even Islamic, but a tradition that has its origins in the Nejd of Saudi Arabia. Women in Saudi Arabia outside the Nejd before 1970 did not wear this. It took the rise of Wahhabism to power within Saudi, to islamify the Burka into islam. With Saudi money the Wahhabist ideology has been exported into many Muslim and Non Muslim countries.

Its a symbol of segregation between men and women. Seperation between Muslims and Non-Muslims. A complete rejection of acceptance, tolernace and others. It is a culture that treats women as no better than cattle. That they are a sexualized object that has to be covered.

Its a symbol of oppression and should be condemned by all as we do the KKK outfit.
The KKK hood is a symbol of hate, the burka is not.
Many women who wear it do it from choice.....we live in a society that allows choice.
Dictating what a woman should not wear is as bad as dictating what she can wear.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:46 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:


It is up to women what they wear, however, its a big issue if they are being forced. Either by people or coerced through fear.

So again

If someone from the KKK, wore their outfit. Many would rightly condemn such an outfit as a symbol of opression, racism and hate. Nobody rightly here would give this the time of day and would condemn and ridicule.

We have the Burka, not even Islamic, but a tradition that has its origins in the Nejd of Saudi Arabia. Women in Saudi Arabia outside the Nejd before 1970 did not wear this. It took the rise of Wahhabism to power within Saudi, to islamify the Burka into islam. With Saudi money the Wahhabist ideology has been exported into many Muslim and Non Muslim countries.

Its a symbol of segregation between men and women. Seperation between Muslims and Non-Muslims. A complete rejection of acceptance, tolernace and others. It is a culture that treats women as no better than cattle. That they are a sexualized object that has to be covered.

Its a symbol of oppression and should be condemned by all as we do the KKK outfit.
The KKK hood is a symbol of hate, the burka is not.
Many women who wear it do it from choice.....we live in a society that allows choice.
Dictating what a woman should not wear is as bad as dictating what she can wear.

OMG


Seriously?

You think its not a symbol of hate?

Its part of the Wahhabist belief system today, even though it never was part of Islamic belief. Its very much political and a means for men to control women.

It comes from the belief to treat women as sexual objects to be covered up

A view to segregate

How much more oppressive do you want to get as a symble and even more when again. Women are being forced to wear by men and those who claim to choose to do so. Are in no way choosing at all. They are choosing to be in fear of a belief, that if they do not wear. They will burn in a hell fire.

That is oppression.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by eddie on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:52 pm

Leave the bloody burkha alone. It’s just a bloody piece of clothing.
Who cares?

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:53 pm

Again, I said women can wear what they want syl

This is about calling out the Burka as a symbol of oppression, of which it fundementally is.

You seem oblivious that Muslim women are forced to wear and take the view of those who claim to want to wear. Neglecting the fact they only do so through a belief that they will suffer if they do not

Which means you are placing those forced to wear second to those who claim to wear.

That is appalling, as you are basically sticking two fingers up to them.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Guest on Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:55 pm

eddie wrote:Leave the bloody burkha alone. It’s just a bloody piece of clothing.
Who cares?  



Associate Professor Elham Manea, a Swiss-Yemeni citizen and the author of Women and Sharia Law, argues it is naïve — even racist — to regard the wearing of a burka as a sincere act of faith.

"The burka is not Islamic," she told the Religion and Ethics Report.

"It's a tradition that comes from the heart of Saudi Arabia, a region called Nejd."

Dr Manea says the veiled garment was not worn by women outside of Nejd until Saudi Arabia's Wahabi regime came to power in the late 1970s.

"The re-Islamisation of Saudi Arabia according to the Wahabi Salafi fundamentalist principles led to the mainstreaming of the burka," she said.

"With Gulf money you had a promotion of this ideology and a reading of Islam that turned the burka into an 'Islamic' tradition."

The Koran calls for both men and women to "cover and be modest", but this reference is open to interpretation.

In Australia, few Muslim women wear burkas, though many wear other kinds of hijab or head coverings.

Dr Manea, a member of the University of Zurich's political science institute and a former advisor to the Swiss government, believes conversations around the validity and religiosity of the burka are essential.

"To tell me that by talking about the burka we are hurting the feelings of the Muslims is not only inaccurate, with all due respect, it's almost racist," she said.

Though she was careful not to align her views with those of Senator Hanson, Dr Manea did agree with one of the politician's points: the burka is not a religious requirement.

"[The burka] is a sign of segregation, separation, rejection of the values we see all around us — values of acceptance and tolerance and otherness," she said.

"[It reflects] a culture that treats woman as a sexualised object that has to be covered.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-28/burkas-are-political-symbols-not-islamic-says-Muslim-scholar/8843916


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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:30 am

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

I dont think it should be banned, but like everyone else in a bank, teaching children at an airport or stopped by the Police they should take it off.

Now i can certainly reason why its certainly wrong to wear and its based on a belief that either forces women to wear by the state or husbands etc. Or its taught that they will suffer if they do not.

That is hardly a choice.

Its also very poor when speaking one to one in conversation, being as facial expression play a part in conversations.

Hence why people should speak openly on why its wrong.

Was Boris wrong to say what he did?

The answer is emphatically no. As tell me why should such a backward item of clothing that controls women through poor beliefs be given any form of respect?

Its a symbol of oppression, where countless women are forced to wear or scared not to, as they believe they will suffer in a make believe hell fire

So tell me, how can anyone respect that?

It should be rightly condemned, for the liberty of all women
I agree that women should remove the full face covering for security reasons, when driving, or for certain jobs, teaching for eg...thats common sense.

I believe women should have the choice to cover themselves if they choose to do so.....what business is it of anyone else?

Boris Johnson, along with everyone else has the right to say he finds the burka unattractive and unnecessary, he has no right to compare the women who wear it to letter boxes and bankrobbers.
Would you say a woman in a headscarf looks like a scrubber, or a woman in a mini slirt looks like a slag?....same difference.


Firstly... it becomes the business of everyone else who has to interact with them...


Secondly... would you say a man in a dress looks like a woman...?



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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Syl on Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:39 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Syl wrote:
I agree that women should remove the full face covering for security reasons, when driving, or for certain jobs, teaching for eg...thats common sense.

I believe women should have the choice to cover themselves if they choose to do so.....what business is it of anyone else?

Boris Johnson, along with everyone else has the right to say he finds the burka unattractive and unnecessary, he has no right to compare the women who wear it to letter boxes and bankrobbers.
Would you say a woman in a headscarf looks like a scrubber, or a woman in a mini slirt looks like a slag?....same difference.


Firstly... it becomes the business of everyone else who has to interact with them...


Secondly... would you say a man in a dress looks like a woman...?


Why is it your business if someone wears something you dont approve of?  You can still interact with someone even if you dont like the way they dress cant you? And seriously, how many burka wearing women do you personally have to interact with?

I dont understand your last point.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Syl on Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:45 am

Boris Johnson probably couldnt care less about the burka anyway.
His point was it shouldnt be banned here....so why use deliberately provocative words to cause upset for the minority....why bother to write about it anyway?

Possibly because the majority of people in the UK dont like the burka.....could he simply be playing into their hands by jumping on a subject where he will likely get lots of support?

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:56 am

Am I free to say what I think somebody looks like... regarding how they are dressed... or not...?


Do I have a right to my personal opinion... and the freedom to express my view... or not...?


If people can wear what they want... without caring what the opinions of others are... then others can have opinions they want without caring too... can't they...?



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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by Original Quill on Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:37 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

By your reckoning, beards should be banned.  The point is, the face cover is the least of he teller's problems when he's got a gun in his face.

It's a surrogate argument for white supremacy.  Attack the clothing of people of color, and create a dog whistle issue.  When Trayvon Martin was murdered, many knuckle-draggers were quick to criticize his hoodie sweatshirt because it hid his face...um, not that anyone could recognize him--they all look alike and all.

Beards don't cover a whole face though. The point is that your comparisons were silly.

Trayvon Martin wasn't murdered. His hoodie didn't cover his face anyway.

You are knit-picking your evidence.  Beards are a facial disguise, don't deny it.  Trayvon was murdered, but that is not the point.  The point is that people are using clothing as a surrogate argument against persons of color in order to assert white supremacy.

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by nicko on Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:05 am

What a load of bollocks Quill, you try to hide your ignorance with long words and" Lawyer Speak" it wont wash any more, you'v been rumbled !!
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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by HoratioTarr on Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:27 am

Original Quill wrote:
HT wrote:What an idiotic set of comparisons.

Yet, so appropriate.  The idiocy is in the original premise put forth by Boris.  What he is saying, ultimately, is that a cultural identity should be obliterated.

As I've pointed out, it's pretextual reasoning.  Boris doesn't care any more about gender rights than you.  It's a phony cigar, to get at his hatred of people of color.  He doesn't care about burkas.  He wants to criticize the people who wear them.

As for women's rights, you are being ethnocentric.  You are leveling western, white-supremacist values on other cultures, as if they give a shit.  Probably the strongest defense of burkas comes from the Muslim women themselves, who feel safer and more secure in them.  And yes, they think the mystery of it all is quite feminine.

Why not leave 'em alone and let them have their own values.  We tolerate radical women's fashions all right.  We've survived bikinis and short-shorts.  What's with this sudden proscription of womens wear when it comes to burkas?  After all, who made you god?

Muslim women also hate the full veil. They ripped them off and burned the damned things when IS finally got defeated in their areas.

Like I said, it's their choice. Nobody is saying they can't wear them, not even Boris.

As for God. Nature gave us faces. For a reason. It's how we interact. Taking that away from someone isn't emancipation.

One has to ask too why a woman would feel safer hidden beneath a full body veil? The whole foundation of that is an affront to human rights.

What makes me laugh is that certain Muslim countries would not afford the same freedom to non-Muslim women's 'rights' to not wear the veil in that country. We'd have to adhere to their laws and societal shibboleths or face the consequences. So all the pearl clutching over this is more than a little hypocritical.

Women have had a long hard fight to gain equality with men. It's still ongoing.
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HoratioTarr

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Re: Should Boris be booted?

Post by HoratioTarr on Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:34 am

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:


He has every right to say how oppressive looking it is. Which is what he did by comparing it to a letter box and a bank robber, which is what bank robbers do, by masking their faces.

How is that wrong?

He never called them a slag or scrubber, so utterly irrelevant

He stated how they look like, not what they could or could not be
He specifically said the women who wore burkas looked like letter boxes and bank robbers....he was commenting on them not the clothes.

No difference to someone saying a woman looks like a scrubber or a slag.....he should have kept his distaste focused on  the clothes not the womenn who wear them....there is a big difference.

He basically said what a lot think, but it was very clumsy and tactless and he'd have been better putting a more intelligent and eloquent argument across against it.
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Re: Should Boris be booted?

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