My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

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My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by *THE Ben Reilly* on Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:52 am

First topic message reminder :

Or, maybe it is exactly what you think. But if you clicked on this expecting me to talk about how capitalism leaves the poor hanging out to dry, or how it leaves unwitting consumers victimized by shoddy, unsafe products, or how it leaves workers exploited and exhausted, I'm probably about to surprise you.

My biggest problem with capitalism is that in capitalism, nothing is worthwhile if you can't make a profit off of it. Same goes for people. We're only worth what we can earn.

Let's say when you were a girl, your fondest dream was to grow up and be a ballerina. But when you were a child, "fond dream" hardly does justice to it -- because the very idea of being a ballerina intoxicated you like nothing else. You would get so caught up imagining yourself in that life that hours could pass by and you'd barely notice.

Well, sorry, but ballet is dying because too many people aren't interested in it and guess what - ballet isn't worth doing if it can't make money. That's the rule under capitalism.

It doesn't even matter if you dance for a government-funded company. Someone, somewhere, is going to resent the fact that you're "stealing" the money they worked so hard to earn just to do a boring dance that hardly anybody watches any more. And they'll vote to strip your funding.

So what would we do with a girl like that now? We'd do the sensible thing and nudge her into an interest that's more practical, that she could make money doing. Maybe she becomes an investment banker, maybe she ends up a stripper, but whatever pays the bills is not what she dreamed of doing when she didn't know that she had to sell something of herself in order to have a home and to eat.

So back around 1500 or so, there was a guy who spent three years working on a single painting. When he died, it was still in his possession. He wrote once that it (like the rest of his paintings) still wasn't finished, years after he'd put it aside.

It looked exactly like this:



Try to imagine a world without the Mona Lisa. But I think had de Vinci grown up in today's world, he'd probably be painting stuff that looked more like this:



Why? Because that shit sells, man! And you have to make money to have a home and to eat.

Okay, shifting focus. Here's something that you could go see (if you had the money to travel and the time off from work):



The Great Pyramid of Giza. There will never be anything else quite like it. It was built around 4,500 years ago, by people who were not slaves, actually, and there it stands in Egypt to this day.

Why would anybody build something like the Great Pyramid today? It doesn't do anything. It doesn't generate money, except for some tourism to come see it (and it certainly didn't attract tourists 4,500 years ago). It was huge and time-consuming and expensive to build, and it turned no profit. Modern-day capitalist thinking sees the Great Pyramid as a waste of resources, a pointless investment. A money pit.

We've allowed ourselves to be changed into people who don't undertake anything difficult and timeless unless it's for money. We don't dream big, huge, gigantic, except when it comes to our bank accounts.

With that mentality, we as the human race will never build another Great Pyramid or paint another Mona Lisa. It simply wouldn't be practical.

It's something that kills your soul, having to put a price tag on every single thing you do with your talent.

Especially when you only wanted to dance beautifully.

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Original Quill on Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:12 pm

There's nothing wrong with communism except, mechanically, it doesn't work.  It has a flaw in it...the same flaw that caused Christianity to fail: NOTHING HAPPENED!

In each theory, a "coming" was supposed to happen.  In Christianity, the "second coming of Christ" was supposed to transpire; Christ is still lingering somewhere between here and there.

In Communism, the Hegelian Geist was supposed to descend upon the world and do away with all need for government and authority.  In the meantime, an advanced vanguard--read as: authoritarian dictatorship--was supposed to shepherd the "coming".  Alas, Geist dilly-dallied, and the dictatorship became permanent totalitarianism.

People forgot about that part of Marxism, and only measure communism by the totalitarian dictatorship left over.  Well, hey…suppose the creator had provided for a vanguard Christ—we’d all be living under a totalitarian dictatorship.  (Many say that was the role of the Pope.)

The reason why I'm not a communist is the same reason why I'm not a Christian.  They are both ridiculous pipe-dreams.

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:14 pm

Original Quill wrote:There's nothing wrong with communism except, mechanically, it doesn't work.  It has a flaw in it...the same flaw that caused Christianity to fail: NOTHING HAPPENED!



Contradiction

It means Communism is completely wrong, as it doesn't work.

If you want to take something based on faith, when you know it does not work. Then clearly you will end up contradicting yourself.

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Original Quill on Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:16 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:There's nothing wrong with communism except, mechanically, it doesn't work.  It has a flaw in it...the same flaw that caused Christianity to fail: NOTHING HAPPENED!

Contradiction

It means Communism is completely wrong, as it doesn't work.

The reason why I'm not a communist is the same reason why I'm not a Christian.  They are both ridiculous pipe-dreams.



Last edited by Original Quill on Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:21 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:19 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

Contradiction

It means Communism is completely wrong, as it doesn't work.

The reason why I'm not a communist is the same reason why I'm not a Christian.  They are both ridiculous pipe-dreams.


Which would mean there is something wrong with both.

Anyway, we both know that most people follow Paulianity and not Christianity

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Original Quill on Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:21 pm

BTW, there's no such thing as 'right and wrong', either. There is only, 'it works' and 'it doesn't work'. Read Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil.

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:29 pm

Original Quill wrote:BTW, there's no such thing as 'right and wrong', either. There is only, 'it works' and 'it doesn't work'. Read Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil.

I have read thanks and do not agree with him on this point, as somethings are right and wrong.

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Original Quill on Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:47 pm

What does god look like?
What does Geist look like?
What do 'right' and 'wrong' look like?
.

More metaphysics.

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Guest on Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:54 pm

Original Quill wrote:What does god look like?
What does Geist look like?
What do 'right' and 'wrong' look like?
.

More metaphysics.  

Well does you being raped work for you or is it wrong?

Its something against your will.

Now apply Golden rule

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by eddie on Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:31 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote: Rolling Eyes

To prove just what a total fuckwit he can be when he chooses...

Once again, the Dodger tries to paint me as a Marxist, and a "communist apologist"..

Despite the salient fact that not once have I ever been seen either supporting communism, or apologising for any communist dictators.

Even here above, yet again we see Dodge falsely claiming that I have written something that I clearly haven't --  demonstrating how much he lives in his own imagination..

Well, Wolfie baby, you do exactly the same thing to a lot of us here, remember? Accusing people of stuff they didn’t say and then not providing the proof when asked...calling them names and casting aspersions on their character....you get the picture.


It’s annoying, mate. Wouldn’t you say?

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Original Quill on Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:23 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:What does god look like?
What does Geist look like?
What do 'right' and 'wrong' look like?
.

More metaphysics.  

Well does you being raped work for you or is it wrong?

Its something against your will.

Now apply Golden rule

Oh, attraction and rejection are real enough.  But to what?  Notice, you had to fill in with a noun before you made sense.  That is the point...'right' and 'wrong' are just adjectives.  Adjectives are not real.

Take a look at Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil. https://www.iep.utm.edu/nietzsch/

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Syl on Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:03 am

Maybe if we just let people be what they wanted to be without putting a price on their abilities the world would be a happier place,
Money and the ability to earn lots of it doesnt make for contentment......many of the worlds treasures, like the most famous paintings for eg, were valued long after the artist died, often in poverty.

It may be a simplistic way to view life, but I doubt any of us will lie on our deathbeds congratulating ourselves on how materialistically succesful we have been.

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:08 am

Original Quill wrote:There's nothing wrong with communism except, mechanically, it doesn't work.  It has a flaw in it...the same flaw that caused Christianity to fail: NOTHING HAPPENED!

In each theory, a "coming" was supposed to happen.  In Christianity, the "second coming of Christ" was supposed to transpire; Christ is still lingering somewhere between here and there.

In Communism, the Hegelian Geist was supposed to descend upon the world and do away with all need for government and authority.  In the meantime, an advanced vanguard--read as: authoritarian dictatorship--was supposed to shepherd the "coming".  Alas, Geist dilly-dallied, and the dictatorship became permanent totalitarianism.

People forgot about that part of Marxism, and only measure communism by the totalitarian dictatorship left over.  Well, hey…suppose the creator had provided for a vanguard Christ—we’d all be living under a totalitarian dictatorship.  (Many say that was the role of the Pope.)

The reason why I'm not a communist is the same reason why I'm not a Christian.  They are both ridiculous pipe-dreams.

hmmmm.....
maybe they were too early, or the rampant inefficiency of Capitalism has slowed technological progress this much. 

we are approaching the technological 'Geist'
the actual point where humans can have what hey have always dreamed of a 'god' to look after everything  Cool

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:17 am

Syl wrote:Maybe if we just let people be what they wanted to be without putting a price on their abilities the world would be a happier place,
Money and the ability to earn lots of it doesnt make for contentment......many of the worlds treasures, like the most famous paintings for eg, were valued long after the artist died, often in poverty.

It may be a simplistic way to view life, but I doubt any of us will lie on our deathbeds congratulating ourselves on how materialistically succesful we have been.


Or be like it once was an like today had a hierarchy, even within the earliest stages of human history. No matter how far back in time and within the animal kingdoms, you have such hierarchy.

You say earning money does not lead to contenment, but to many its success that does, as it does with buisness owners and people of sport for example. It certainly leads to a feeling of more than contentment. 

Well, these people will be remembered on their death beds, more than the rest of us

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:18 am

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:

Well does you being raped work for you or is it wrong?

Its something against your will.

Now apply Golden rule

Oh, attraction and rejection are real enough.  But to what?  Notice, you had to fill in with a noun before you made sense.  That is the point...'right' and 'wrong' are just adjectives.  Adjectives are not real.

Take a look at Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil.  https://www.iep.utm.edu/nietzsch/


You just said some things are real enough and then are in conflict over this on adjectives

I have read again and like i say I do not agree

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Syl on Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:35 am

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:Maybe if we just let people be what they wanted to be without putting a price on their abilities the world would be a happier place,
Money and the ability to earn lots of it doesnt make for contentment......many of the worlds treasures, like the most famous paintings for eg, were valued long after the artist died, often in poverty.

It may be a simplistic way to view life, but I doubt any of us will lie on our deathbeds congratulating ourselves on how materialistically succesful we have been.


Or be like it once was an like today had a hierarchy, even within the earliest stages of human history. No matter how far back in time and within the animal kingdoms, you have such hierarchy.

You say earning money does not lead to contenment, but to many its success that does, as it does with buisness owners and people of sport for example. It certainly leads to a feeling of more than contentment. 

Well, these people will be remembered on their death beds, more than the rest of us
Who cares how many people will remember you on your deathbed ?
What will surely matter is how you have felt about others and how your loved ones have felt about you.

People should be encouraged to be happy....thats the best success in life, not how much money you have accrued for yourself and others.

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:40 am

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:


Or be like it once was an like today had a hierarchy, even within the earliest stages of human history. No matter how far back in time and within the animal kingdoms, you have such hierarchy.

You say earning money does not lead to contenment, but to many its success that does, as it does with buisness owners and people of sport for example. It certainly leads to a feeling of more than contentment. 

Well, these people will be remembered on their death beds, more than the rest of us
Who cares how many people will remember you on your deathbed ?
What will surely matter is how you have felt about others and how your loved ones have felt about you.

People should be encouraged to be happy....thats the best success in life, not how much money you have accrued for yourself and others.


Clearly it does matter to many people throughout history, as to them it is being immortalized within life and history

This is easily seen from the Great Pyramids to written works etc

So your next point is then amplified exponentially. As then far more people can then love someone for what they have done. Hence why they are remembered in history. Many are remembered long after many of us have faded into history within a couple of generations.

Actually people simple need to allow themselves to be happy. As it does not take much to be happy and in fact people place such barriers from doing so in front of them all the time. Nobody else can really make us happy, as you have to be happy within yourself from the beginnging. So again I am not even talking about money, but success.

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Eilzel on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:14 am

Didge wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Bolded section - you are correct, under Capitalism a huge chunk of the world is oppressed due to dire wages and living conditions, which their governments do nothing about so they can cream off society and let the rich make billions selling cheap goods to the financially better off.
Didge wrote: in the west they are not. Its down to Governements to better spend the money given through the taxes of people. That is not the rich fault is it? And the oppression faced by other nations that are capitalist is because they are basically dictators. Also there is nothing stopping people bettering their lives. This starts at the earliest ages of learning and if parents do not give quality time to the kids, they will start off worse than others. That still does not stop them succeeding in life. So your answer was again piss poor to say the least. basically the views of a Middle class champagne socialist

Of course any philosophy can be practiced in a way which oppresses and harms - communism, capitalism, socialist, imperialism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and so and so on. That doesn't mean it is a necessity of those philosophies. NOTHING in Marxist Communism demands people be starved or killed. Communism itself was not the cause of that.
Didge wrote:Yet more apologist bullshit. As again we have seen that everytime that Communism has been placed in practice what happens? Oppression, the standard of living is dire for most, starvation, countless die and are murdereed under a Totalitarian system. This is the point you cannot grasp, that no matter the nation that adopts Maxism. The same nightmare happens. So it does not matter if it does not demand people be starved or killed. The system demands all people work for the state and people, through collevitivism.Which as seen then ends up seeing countless people starve to death, denied basic freedoms, oppressed etc. 

Every single time

Communism is unrealistic, drastically imperfect, hard to practice without causing major issues for a huge number of (mostly very privileged) people, and easy to abuse by a corrupt state. Capitalism is also not without flaws - it encourages greed and selfishness of community and charity, it does necessitate millions to live in poverty and work long hours, it cares not a bit for the environment if not caring makes more money. AGAIN the balance is between the two.
Didge wrote: So you now think success is greed, where actually i call it people being evnvious where others succeed. Being the fact the same middle class socialists, certainly do not give up their wealth for the poor. I mean how much do you give to those in need?

5%

10%

50%

How much do you think the rich actually give in taxes already?

You see the socialists would rather rob this of someone else. Hence its the most hypocritical bullshit.

Well I believe in Capitalism, even though I think it has many flaws and do care for the envoironment as do many Capitalist EU nations. So to assign that was utterly stupid and desperate

No one is apologising for communism. No one is suggesting ANY state has achieved a communist utopia. You seem to be trying to suggest people are saying something they are not, simply because we don't all turn around and say "OMFG Communism! It's EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL. Only evil or lazy or excuse making idiots would support COMMMMMMMUISM!"
Didge wrote:You certainly are and communism is evil and on a par with Nazism. Which is the problem with Communist apologists. You simple are two b rainwashed to understand the cause and effects off Communism. Its born from a negative view of others better off and wants to basically make all people equal. With no care who gets hurt or suffers in the process. That is evil

I exaggerate, but that does seem to be close to the point. No one wants communism. No one is saying communist states haven't been awful. No one is asking to tear down every thread of market capitalism in the west.

You claimed it was a good philosophy

As seen its bullshit

I didn't claim it was a good philosophy. An unrealistic philosophy is ultimately too flawed to be 'good'. I said it had a noble aim, which is full equality. That's true. It still doesn't make it a 'good philosophy' if it is unrealistic.

And if all the world paid their working class wages equivalent to the US, UK and Europe, we'd find many products rocketing in price, working people in the west suddenly a lot less able to buy all the things they want, and probably a complete change if not total collapse of the global capitalist system as it currently exists.

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:20 am

Eilzel wrote:
Didge wrote:

You claimed it was a good philosophy

As seen its bullshit

I didn't claim it was a good philosophy. An unrealistic philosophy is ultimately too flawed to be 'good'. I said it had a noble aim, which is full equality. That's true. It still doesn't make it a 'good philosophy' if it is unrealistic.

And if all the world paid their working class wages equivalent to the US, UK and Europe, we'd find many products rocketing in price, working people in the west suddenly a lot less able to buy all the things they want, and probably a complete change if not total collapse of the global capitalist system as it currently exists.


You are just conflating words by saying Noble, when there is nothing noble about Communism. As seen by its very nature its wrong on every level.

So your issue is on people having a better living wage within the world

You do not need Communism to solve that and as seen it never has.

Education is the key to solving poverty and people having a better living wage

As to your fear factors. Unlikely to happen, as we live in competative markets. Where many products are also not made in such countries but in the west. Who as seen as compete and still make great profits from this.

Like I say there is nothing noble or good about Communism and frankly it should be taught as abhorant as nazism

Sadly today Universities have been overrun with Middle Class Champagne socialists who are warping the minds of the next generations with identity politics, PC and nonense about Maxism. These teachers simple have again learnt nothing from history.

Now I am tired and have to go to bed

Night

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Eilzel on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:25 am

Didge wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Didge wrote:

You claimed it was a good philosophy

As seen its bullshit

I didn't claim it was a good philosophy. An unrealistic philosophy is ultimately too flawed to be 'good'. I said it had a noble aim, which is full equality. That's true. It still doesn't make it a 'good philosophy' if it is unrealistic.

And if all the world paid their working class wages equivalent to the US, UK and Europe, we'd find many products rocketing in price, working people in the west suddenly a lot less able to buy all the things they want, and probably a complete change if not total collapse of the global capitalist system as it currently exists.


You are just conflating words by saying Noble, when there is nothing noble about Communism. As seen by its very nature its wrong on every level.

So your issue is on people having a better living wage within the world

You do not need Communism to solve that and as seen it never has.

Education is the key to solving poverty and people having a better living wage

As to your fear factors, never going to happen, as we live in competative markets, where many products are also not made in such countries but in the west. Who as seen as compete and still make great profits from this.

Like I say there is nothing noble or good about Communism and frankly it should be taught as abhorant as nazism

Sadly today Universities have been overrun with Middle Class Champagne socialists who are warping the minds of the next generations with identity politics and nonense about Maxism. These teachers simple have again learnt nothing from history.

Now I am tired and have to go to bed

Night

I never said you need communism to solve the problems of capitalism, so irrelevant.

And let's see:

Goal of Nazism - to exterminate Jews and other minorities for the sucess of the master race.

Goal of Communism - to achieve global economic equality.

If you truly believe both are equally evil philosophies then there's little left to say anyway. Night.

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:34 am

Eilzel wrote:
Didge wrote:


You are just conflating words by saying Noble, when there is nothing noble about Communism. As seen by its very nature its wrong on every level.

So your issue is on people having a better living wage within the world

You do not need Communism to solve that and as seen it never has.

Education is the key to solving poverty and people having a better living wage

As to your fear factors, never going to happen, as we live in competative markets, where many products are also not made in such countries but in the west. Who as seen as compete and still make great profits from this.

Like I say there is nothing noble or good about Communism and frankly it should be taught as abhorant as nazism

Sadly today Universities have been overrun with Middle Class Champagne socialists who are warping the minds of the next generations with identity politics and nonense about Maxism. These teachers simple have again learnt nothing from history.

Now I am tired and have to go to bed

Night

I never said you need communism to solve the problems of capitalism, so irrelevant.

And let's see:

Goal of Nazism - to exterminate Jews and other minorities for the sucess of the master race.

Goal of Communism - to achieve global economic equality.

If you truly believe both are equally evil philosophies then there's little left to say anyway. Night.


Its very relevant

Anyway lets look at your comparrisons

Goal of Nazism, was living space, create a greater Germany, destroy the Versaille Treaty, oppress the Jews, disabled homosexuals, communists etc. It was also to destroy Communism and later the concept of the Final solution came in 1942

Goal of Russian communism was to oppress and starve millions. This continually happened when Communism was enacted

Now here is the crunch for you.

Would Nazism, have ever risen, if there had been no revolution in Russia and then the Communists sized power?

The Nazis in the main hated Communism and saw this as a threat, as much as the Jews

Without Communism, would have the Nazi's even been voted into power?

Would then World War Two have even then occured in the European Theater?

Would then millions have died as a consequence?

The rise of Communism was intrinsic to the rise of Nazism and Hitler.

Go figure

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Eilzel on Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 am

Didge wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Didge wrote:


You are just conflating words by saying Noble, when there is nothing noble about Communism. As seen by its very nature its wrong on every level.

So your issue is on people having a better living wage within the world

You do not need Communism to solve that and as seen it never has.

Education is the key to solving poverty and people having a better living wage

As to your fear factors, never going to happen, as we live in competative markets, where many products are also not made in such countries but in the west. Who as seen as compete and still make great profits from this.

Like I say there is nothing noble or good about Communism and frankly it should be taught as abhorant as nazism

Sadly today Universities have been overrun with Middle Class Champagne socialists who are warping the minds of the next generations with identity politics and nonense about Maxism. These teachers simple have again learnt nothing from history.

Now I am tired and have to go to bed

Night

I never said you need communism to solve the problems of capitalism, so irrelevant.

And let's see:

Goal of Nazism - to exterminate Jews and other minorities for the sucess of the master race.

Goal of Communism - to achieve global economic equality.

If you truly believe both are equally evil philosophies then there's little left to say anyway. Night.


Its very relevant

Anyway lets look at your comparrisons

Goal of Nazism, was living space, create a greater Germany, destroy the Versaille Treaty, oppress the Jews, disabled homosexuals, communists etc. It was also to destroy Communism and later the concept of the Final solution came in 1942

Goal of Russian communism was to oppress and starve millions. This continually happened when Communism was enacted

Now here is the crunch for you.

Would Nazism, have ever risen, if there had been no revolution in Russia and then the Communists sized power?

The Nazis in the main hated Communism and saw this as a threat, as much as the Jews

Without Communism, would have the Nazi's even been voted into power?

Would then World War Two have even then occured in the European Theater?

Would then millions have died as a consequence?

The rise of Communism was intrinsic to the rise of Nazism and Hitler.

Go figure

Notice how you can say 'Nazism' with no qualifier to justify your point on its goals being evil; and I agree.

But you have to specify 'Russian Communism' to point out the 'evils' of Communism.

Admittedly you could switch the qualifier to Maoist, Soviet, Khmer, Castro's, Kim's etc... but you cannot as easily cast the 'ideas' of Communism as evil as you can those of Nazism. Nazism was evil. Communism was/is flawed and easy to abuse.

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:22 am

Basketball

You cannot raise everyone's wage/salary up to a "good"/"happy" level...

There simply isn't enough of a resources base to work off, if you attempt to simply lift the standard of education of every person on the planet, in a vain hope that simply being educated will lead to "better" jobs, somehow appearing out of thin air..

High living standards enjoyed by a few high earners in Europe, North America and S.E. Asia are made on the backs of the lowest 80+% of the populations in Africa, Asia and S.America..

Where is the money (and the underlying natural resources and 'commodities'..) expected to come from ??? Simply increasing the median wage for just half those workers up to the British minimum wage level, could easily use up more money than the world's financiers are willing to release..

Much more attractive to them to see big dollar bonuses to their corporate mates, and more 'spare' cash being tied up in unwanted real estate "investments" that are easier to foreclose on, then seeing just a portion being redirected into more "equitable" and truly "productive" uses.

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:45 am

eddie wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote: Rolling Eyes

To prove just what a total fuckwit he can be when he chooses...

Once again, the Dodger tries to paint me as a Marxist, and a "communist apologist"..

Despite the salient fact that not once have I ever been seen either supporting communism, or apologising for any communist dictators.

Even here above, yet again we see Dodge falsely claiming that I have written something that I clearly haven't --  demonstrating how much he lives in his own imagination..


Well, Wolfie baby, you do exactly the same thing to a lot of us here, remember? Accusing people of stuff they didn’t say and then not providing the proof when asked...calling them names and casting aspersions on their character....you get the picture.

It’s annoying, mate. Wouldn’t you say?  

pirat

Some of those old chooks in the NF Hens' Club simply can't "handle the truth"...        tongue

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:27 am

Eilzel wrote:
Didge wrote:


Its very relevant

Anyway lets look at your comparrisons

Goal of Nazism, was living space, create a greater Germany, destroy the Versaille Treaty, oppress the Jews, disabled homosexuals, communists etc. It was also to destroy Communism and later the concept of the Final solution came in 1942

Goal of Russian communism was to oppress and starve millions. This continually happened when Communism was enacted

Now here is the crunch for you.

Would Nazism, have ever risen, if there had been no revolution in Russia and then the Communists sized power?

The Nazis in the main hated Communism and saw this as a threat, as much as the Jews

Without Communism, would have the Nazi's even been voted into power?

Would then World War Two have even then occured in the European Theater?

Would then millions have died as a consequence?

The rise of Communism was intrinsic to the rise of Nazism and Hitler.

Go figure

Notice how you can say 'Nazism' with no qualifier to justify your point on its goals being evil; and I agree.

But you have to specify 'Russian Communism' to point out the 'evils' of Communism.

Admittedly you could switch the qualifier to Maoist, Soviet, Khmer, Castro's, Kim's etc... but you cannot as easily cast the 'ideas' of Communism as evil as you can those of Nazism. Nazism was evil. Communism was/is flawed and easy to abuse.


Notice how you just made revisionist history, by not knowing the actual goals of the Nazi's. You instead went off their later policies and actions

Well I am doing what you are doing Eilzel

You were speficific with the German Nazi's

You see I can play your distorted game all day long

The orginal Nazi's had no view to exterminate the Jews, they did to oppress them and it was Hitlers and his evil cronies that came in and wanted to exterminate them. You see how easily it is to distort things as you did. When as seen when both the Russian Communists and Nazi's came to power, we then see the true nature off both evils. You see how you never went off the original concept and philosophy of National Socialism? 

I see you advoided my points like the plauge and fail to see when one extreme hateful ideology like Communism comes to power. Its clear, another polar extreme also will.

Hence the absurdity of identity politics, which leads to the most polarisation of people.

We have seen this with Communism and Nazism

This is why you are out of your deapth on history and the problems of Communism

Noble, my arse

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:38 am

Didge wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Notice how you can say 'Nazism' with no qualifier to justify your point on its goals being evil; and I agree.

But you have to specify 'Russian Communism' to point out the 'evils' of Communism.

Admittedly you could switch the qualifier to Maoist, Soviet, Khmer, Castro's, Kim's etc... but you cannot as easily cast the 'ideas' of Communism as evil as you can those of Nazism. Nazism was evil. Communism was/is flawed and easy to abuse.


Notice how you just made revisionist history, by not knowing the actual goals of the Nazi's. You instead went off their later policies and actions

Well I am doing what you are doing Eilzel

You were speficific with the German Nazi's

You see I can play your distorted game all day long

The orginal Nazi's had no view to exterminate the Jews, they did to oppress them and it was Hitlers and his evil cronies that came in and wanted to exterminate them. You see how easily it is to distort things as you did. When as seen when both the Russian Communists and Nazi's came to power, we then see the true nature off both evils. You see how you never went off the original concept and philosophy of National Socialism? 

I see you advoided my points like the plauge and fail to see when one extreme hateful ideology like Communism comes to power. Its clear, another polar extreme also will.

Hence the absurdity of identity politics, which leads to the most polarisation of people.

We have seen this with Communism and Nazism

This is why you are out of your deapth on history and the problems of Communism

Noble, my arse


I see Eilzel logged off quickly, when I caught him out

lol!

Have a good day people

Catch you later

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Eilzel on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:39 am

Didge wrote:
Didge wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Notice how you can say 'Nazism' with no qualifier to justify your point on its goals being evil; and I agree.

But you have to specify 'Russian Communism' to point out the 'evils' of Communism.

Admittedly you could switch the qualifier to Maoist, Soviet, Khmer, Castro's, Kim's etc... but you cannot as easily cast the 'ideas' of Communism as evil as you can those of Nazism. Nazism was evil. Communism was/is flawed and easy to abuse.


Notice how you just made revisionist history, by not knowing the actual goals of the Nazi's. You instead went off their later policies and actions

Well I am doing what you are doing Eilzel

You were speficific with the German Nazi's

You see I can play your distorted game all day long

The orginal Nazi's had no view to exterminate the Jews, they did to oppress them and it was Hitlers and his evil cronies that came in and wanted to exterminate them. You see how easily it is to distort things as you did. When as seen when both the Russian Communists and Nazi's came to power, we then see the true nature off both evils. You see how you never went off the original concept and philosophy of National Socialism? 

I see you advoided my points like the plauge and fail to see when one extreme hateful ideology like Communism comes to power. Its clear, another polar extreme also will.

Hence the absurdity of identity politics, which leads to the most polarisation of people.

We have seen this with Communism and Nazism

This is why you are out of your deapth on history and the problems of Communism

Noble, my arse


I see Eilzel logged off quickly, when I caught him out

lol!

Have a good day people

Catch you later

Slightly ridiculous. I have work to do, I'm not on your timezone, remember. I was teaching when you posted, I never log off manually anyway.

And I don't believe I ever specified 'German' Nazism, though I will admit that mistake if you can show otherwise. But you said yourself that it WAS the part of the Nazi's goal to oppress Jews, which is still ACTUAL evil, rather than the evil that has come as a result of communist regimes (over the ideology itself).

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:48 pm

Razz

Notice how the Dodger keeps on dodging the results of that last graph in his Dickwit Peterson extract up there  ???

Where the positive votes for a "Social Democracy" philosophy (that's people like Eilzel, sassy, me, Andy, Jules, if truth be told..) and the support for "Liberal Democracy" (e.g. Quill, Ben, Lurker, probably eddie and Cass ?) push "Capitalism" (people like Didge, Ragga', Deano ?) back into a distant third, while poor ol' "Libertarianism" (Maddog, Smelly, NoIndependentThoughts ???) is barely matching it with communism..

Is it any wonder, then,  that Dodge has to falsely label his more socially-minded opponents as "Marxists" and "communist apologists", just so he can keep on arguing with himself ?

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:55 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Didge wrote:


I see Eilzel logged off quickly, when I caught him out

lol!

Have a good day people

Catch you later

Slightly ridiculous. I have work to do, I'm not on your timezone, remember. I was teaching when you posted, I never log off manually anyway.

And I don't believe I ever specified 'German' Nazism, though I will admit that mistake if you can show otherwise. But you said yourself that it WAS the part of the Nazi's goal to oppress Jews, which is still ACTUAL evil, rather than the evil that has come as a result of communist regimes (over the ideology itself).




You went off the goals of Communist philosophy and then went off the goals of the Nazis Party

Doh

Are you being deliberately stupid here as to why its not the same thing? Its why I placed Communist Russia

You would have to place national socialism philosophy goals next to communist

Hence it was you distorting this from the start, you went off the nazi party and why I then rightly went off the Communisty party in Russia, as they were the first and led to the rise of national socialism

This is why I have you easily wrappped up in knots

It was you changing the goalpost here from the start

I think its ultimately evil to force people to be equal. Its fine to have equality on the law, but what a barbaric system which as seen causes the deaths of Millions in practice

Only an apologist would claim otherwise

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:58 pm



Basketball


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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Guest on Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:03 pm

Didge wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Slightly ridiculous. I have work to do, I'm not on your timezone, remember. I was teaching when you posted, I never log off manually anyway.

And I don't believe I ever specified 'German' Nazism, though I will admit that mistake if you can show otherwise. But you said yourself that it WAS the part of the Nazi's goal to oppress Jews, which is still ACTUAL evil, rather than the evil that has come as a result of communist regimes (over the ideology itself).




You went off the goals of Communist philosophy and then went off the goals of the Nazis Party

Doh

Are you being deliberately stupid here as to why its not the same thing? Its why I placed Communist Russia

You would have to place national socialism philosophy goals next to communist

Hence it was you distorting this from the start, you went off the nazi party and why I then rightly went off the Communisty party in Russia, as they were the first and led to the rise of national socialism

This is why I have you easily wrappped up in knots

It was you changing the goalpost here from the start

I think its ultimately evil to force people to be equal. Its fine to have equality on the law, but what a barbaric system forcing people to be equal, which as seen causes the deaths of Millions in practice

Only an apologist would claim otherwise


Laughing

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Re: My biggest problem with capitalism is probably not what you think

Post by Tommy Monk on Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:03 am

Les... what is this 'master race' you talk of...?


'Aryan'...?


Blond hair & blue eyes...?


Well... you're wrong!


How many different ethnic groups did the nazis consider to be 'aryan'...?



lol!


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