America is separating thousands of children from their parents

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:41 pm

First topic message reminder :

The Department of Homeland Security says 1,995 minors were separated from their "alleged adult guardians" at the southern border in just over a monthlong period.

A DHS spokesman said the separations occurred between April 19 and the end of May under the administration's relatively new "zero tolerance" policy, in which parents have also been arrested.

The Trump administration's practice of separating migrant children from their parents at the southern border has brought attention to a little-known government agency. The Office of Refugee Resettlement is responsible for finding homes for unaccompanied migrant children, those who attempt to enter the country without their parents. Now the agency also has to shelter those the government has separated from their families.

The government says more than 10,000 children are in shelters run by the Office of Refugee Resettlement. The office is part of the Department of Health and Human Services.

In the Obama administration, the ORR was overseen by acting Assistant Secretary Mark Greenberg. Greenberg, now with the Migration Policy Institute, says there is a careful process to determine how to place unaccompanied children, most of whom come from Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador. The agency, he says, "initially seeks to determine if the child has a parent in this country; and if not a parent, a close relative; and if not a close relative, a more distant relative or a family friend."

Until a sponsor is found, ORR relies on a network of 100 shelters in 14 states to house the children.

Again we see, people say they want draconian immigration laws, then end up seeing utterly inhumane practices enacted.

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/16/620451012/dhs-nearly-2-000-children-separated-from-adults-at-border-in-six-weeks

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:10 pm

ProPublica wrote:Listen To Children Newly Separated From Their Parents At The Border (AUDIO)

ProPublica has obtained audio from inside a U.S. Customs and Border Protection facility, in which children can be heard wailing as an agent jokes, “We have an orchestra here.”


This is the Republican's idea of America.

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Post by veya_victaous on Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:15 am

Original Quill wrote:Everybody is asking....

Where are the girls?

The US government only allows press access to boys' facilities.  All the girls have disappeared.

Given Trump's association with the Russian mafia, and the Russian mafia's association with human female trafficking, reporters are pressing what has he done with the girls.  Are the border-snatchers involved in diverting the girls into prostitution?  Or are they just being groomed for a later time.


This is a truly disturbing element of it.
the USA seems to be engaging in Child trafficking, really you can't blame the Russians this is the USA the USA needs to take responsibility for the fact it has elected people that have created a Child trafficking ring probably for prostitution (for real this time unlike Pizzagate)

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:24 am

Trump has been involved in the business, so to speak. That seems to be why he got into this business.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:32 am

Kirstjen Neilson, Secretary of Homeland Security...

America is separating thousands of children from their parents - Page 2 Secretary-Nielsen

...whom I affectionately call Lilly von Stupp, the Tutonic Titwillow, seems to have forgotten why they are holding the children.

She keeps giving platitudes about the girls, but has no relevant idea where they are. She just says they have been turned over to HHS, repeating protocol.

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:34 am

Idea

I suggested a couple of days ago that the Trump administration is probably involved in child trafficking and sex slavery, even if only indirectly...

Considering that they have several recognised child abusers and paedo's, plus known amoral millionaires/financiers who will do anything for a dollar, and a smattering of fundi' religious nutters, scattered among their ranks, that possibility really shouldn't surprise anybody..

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Post by nicko on Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:30 am

Don't they have Libel rules in your country?
In England you'd have to prove that before printing !
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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:02 pm

nicko wrote:Don't they have Libel rules in your country?
In England you'd have to prove that before printing !

We do have liable laws, but: (1) we also have a First Amendment, that prohibits any chilling of freedom of speech; and (2) under the First Amendment a liable claimant must first prove that the statement is false.

Also, under New York Times v. Sullivan, freedom of speech is greater when the individual subject is a public figure or a matter of public concern.  When the matter is one involving a public figure or a public interest, the reporter must merely offer the person a chance for rebuttal.  (That's why you always hear the announcement: 'we contacted xxxxxx for his response, but he failed to return our call'.)  Then you are absent malice.  This is so some ersatz dictator does not use the libel laws to smother free discussion in a democracy.

Consistent with that, I not only invite, but demand that the teutonic titwillow, Ms. Neilson, Donald Trump, Stephen Miller--or anyone from the White House--appear here and tell us: Where are the Girls?  This is serious and well beyond political games.

Given Trump's close association with the Russians, and the Russians repeated involvement in female human trafficking (for obvious reasons), if Trump has taken these children to serve the businesses of Russian mobsters, it's a crime against god and humanity.  The Special Prosecutor should look into this and be tasked with identifying each child, locating them, and securing their safety and return to parents!!.

Where are the Girls??

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:53 pm

Original Quill wrote:Kirstjen Neilson, Secretary of Homeland Security...

America is separating thousands of children from their parents - Page 2 Secretary-Nielsen

...whom I affectionately call Lilly von Stupp, the Tutonic Titwillow, seems to have forgotten why they are holding the children.

She keeps giving platitudes about the girls, but has no relevant idea where they are.  She just says they have been turned over to HHS, repeating protocol.


Smile

Todays Question  :

Does anybody else reckon that Kirstjen Nielsen looks like she just came from her other job in a strip club  ???         America is separating thousands of children from their parents - Page 2 591502950

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:46 pm

After Congress met today to discuss what is happening, several members said the tutonic titwillow is unqualified for her job. Increasing numbers of people are calling for her resignation.
bizwoman wrote:
Calls grow for Kristjen Nielsen to resign

Betsey Guzior,
Jun 19, 2018, 11:23am EDT

Homeland Security Secretary Kristjen Nielsen's continued defense of separating families at the U.S.-Mexican border is prompting calls for her resignation.

At least 10 members of Congress say Nielsen should quit as her agency enforces the administration's zero tolerance policy, which has resulted in more than 2,000 children being separated from their parents at the U.S. border since April. Many are crossing the border to seek asylum.

Sen. Kamala Harris led the charge Monday, NBC News reports.

In a statement posted on social media, Harris said "Under (Nielsen's) watch, our government has committed human rights abuses by breaking up families along the southern border. And she has ​failed to be accountable to and transparent with the American people."

Other lawmakers criticizing Nielsen include House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, Sens. Kristen Gillibrand and Tina Smith, and Reps. Barbara Lee and Kathleen Rice, all Democrats.

Gillibrand called the policy "an evil, dark thing," The Hill reports.

The calls came as ProPublica released audio of children crying inside one detention facility as a Border Patrol agent jokes, "Well, we have an orchestra over here." [ed: see post above] Children are heard repeating calls for their parents, including a 6-year-old from El Salvador.

On Monday, Nielsen told reporters repeatedly that the department is no longer tolerating loopholes in the law, which "create a functionally open border. Apprehension without detention and removal is not border security," she said.
https://www.bizjournals.com/bizwomen/news/latest-news/2018/06/calls-grow-for-kristjen-nielsen-to-resign.html

See following, for full transcript of tutonic titwillow's briefing.


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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:55 pm

The New York Times wrote:Kirstjen Nielsen Addresses Families Separation at Border: Full Transcript

By The New York Times
June 18, 2018

The Homeland Security secretary, Kirstjen Nielsen, addressed on Monday the zero-tolerance immigration policy amid growing outcry over the forced separation it is causing to families apprehended at the border.

Ms. Nielsen opened with a statement on the policy and then answered questions from reporters in the White House briefing room.

[Read our latest coverage of Cheeto-Faced Ferret-Wearing Shit Gibbon’s immigration policy and the separation of families at the border.]

The following is a transcript of that appearance.

_____________________

SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, White House press secretary: … To answer your questions on this topic, I invited Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen and the Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Kevin McAleenan to the podium. And as always, I’ll be back up afterwards to take questions on other news of the day. Thanks.


KIRSTJEN NIELSEN, secretary of homeland security: Well, good afternoon. It is my pleasure to be here, because I would love to see if I can help explain some of what is going on and give you some of the facts. I know there have been a lot put out there but hopefully we can clarify some things today. I just wanted to start by thanking the sheriffs of the United States. I had the privilege of speaking to them this morning at the National Sheriffs’ Association Conference. We are so thankful for their partnership at D.H.S. and all they do to protect our community. So I thank them.

So, I want to provide you an update on the illegal immigration crisis on the southern border and the efforts the administration is taking to solve this crisis and to stop the flood of illegal immigrants, drugs, contraband and crime coming across the border.

So let’s just start with a few numbers and facts. So, in the last three months we’ve seen illegal immigration on our southern border exceed 50,000 people each month, multiples over each month last year. Since this time last year, there has been a 325 percent increase in unaccompanied alien children and a 435 percent increase in family units entering the country illegally.

Over the last ten years, there has been a 1700 percent increase in asylum claims, resulting in asylum backlog of 600,000 cases. Since 2013, the United States has admitted more than half a million illegal immigrant minors and family units from Central America, most of whom today are at large in the United States. At the same time, large criminal organizations such as MS-13 have violated our borders and gained a deadly foothold within the United States. This entire crisis, just to be clear, is not new. It is been occurring and expanded over many decades. But currently it is the exclusive product of loopholes in our federal immigration laws that prevent illegal immigrant minors and family members from being detained and removed to their home countries.

In other words, these loopholes create a functionally open border. Apprehension without detention and removal is not border security. We have repeatedly called on Congress to close the loopholes. I myself have met with as many members as have been willing to meet with me, and I testified seven times, and I will continue to make myself available to ask that they work with us to solve this crisis.

Yet the voices most loudly criticizing the enforcement of our current laws are those whose policies created this crisis and whose policies perpetrate it. In particular, we need to reform three major loopholes. Let me quickly walk you through them.

First, we need to amend the 2008 Trafficking Victims Prevention Reauthorization Act, or T.V.P.R., which is much easier to say. This law encourages families to put children in the hands of smugglers to bring them alone on this dangerous trek northward. And make no mistake, we’ve talked about this before: This trek is dangerous and deadly.

Second, we need to reform our asylum laws to end the systemic abuse of our asylum system and stop fraud. Right now, our asylum system fails to assist asylum seekers who legitimately need it. We are a country of compassion and heart. We must fix this system so that those who truly need asylum can, in fact, receive it.

Third, we need to amend the Flores Settlement Agreement and recent expansions which would allow for family detention during the removal process. And we need Congress to fully fund our ability to hold families together through the immigration process. And until these loopholes are closed by Congress, it is not possible as a matter of law to detain and remove whole family units who arrive illegally in the United States. Congress and the courts created this problem and congress alone can fix it.

Until then, we will enforce every law we have on the books to defend the sovereignty and security of the United States. Those who criticize the enforcement of our laws have offered only one countermeasure: open borders, the quick release of all illegal alien families and the decision not to enforce our laws. This policy would be disastrous. Its prime beneficiary would be the smuggling organizations themselves, and the prime victims would be the children, who would be plunged into the smuggling machines on the trip north.

There is a lot of misinformation about what D.H.S. is and is not doing as it relates to families at the border. And I want to correct the record here. Here are the facts.

First, this administration did not create a policy of separating families at the border. We have a statutory responsibility that we take seriously to protect alien children from human smuggling, trafficking and other criminal actions while enforcing our immigration laws.

We have a long existing policy — multiple administrations have followed — that outline when we may take action to protect children. We will separate those who claim to be a parent and child if we cannot determine a familiar or custodial relationship exists. For example, if there is no documentation to confirm the claimed relationship between an adult and a child. We do so if the parent is a national security, public, or safety risk, including when there are criminal charges at issue and it may not be appropriate to maintain the family in detention together.

We also separate a parent and child if the adult is suspected of human trafficking. There are cases where minors have been used and trafficked by unrelated adults in an effort to avoid detention. And I’d stop here to say in the last five months, we have a 314 percent increase in adults and children arriving at the border fraudulently, claiming to be a family unit. This is obviously of concern.

And separation can occur when the parent is charged with human smuggling. Under those circumstances, we would detain the parent in an appropriate secure detention facility separate from the child. What has changed is that we no longer exempt entire classes of people who break the law. Everyone is subject to prosecution. When D.H.S. refers a case against a parent or legal guardian for criminal prosecution, the parent or legal guardian will be placed into the U.S. Marshals Service custody for pretrial determination, pursuant to an order by a federal judge, and any accompanied child will be transferred to the Department of Health and Human Services and will be reclassified as an unaccompanied alien child.

That is in accordance with the T.V.P.R.A., a law that was passed by Congress, and following a court order, neither of which actions the Trump administration has taken. And let’s be clear: If an American were to commit a crime anywhere in the United States, they would go to jail and they would be separated from their family. This is not a controversial idea.

Second, children in D.H.S. and H.H.S. custody are being well taken care of. The Department of Health and Human Services Office of Refugee Resettlement provides meals, medical care and educational services to these children. They are provided temporary shelter, and H.H.S. works hard to find a parent, relative or foster home to care for these children. Parents can still communicate with their children through phone calls and video conferencing.

And a parent who is released from custody can be a sponsor and ask H.H.S. to release the child back into their care. Further, these minors can still apply for asylum under U.S. immigration law, if eligible. We take allegations of mistreatment seriously. And I want to stress this point: We investigate, we hold those accountable when and if it should occur. We have some of the highest detention standards in the country. Claiming these children and their parents are treated inhumanely is not true, and completely disrespects the hard working men and women at the Office of Refugee Resettlement.

Third, parents who entered illegally are, by definition, criminals. Illegal entry is a crime as determined by Congress. By entering our country illegally, often in dangerous circumstances, illegal immigrants put their children at risk.

Fourth, C.B.P. and I.C.E. officers are trained to care for minors in their custody. D.H.S. and H.H.S. treats all individuals in its custody with dignity and respect and complies with all laws and policy. This reinforces and reiterates the need to consider the best interest of the children, and mandates adherence to established protocols to protect at-risk populations to include standards for the transport and treatment of minors in D.H.S. and H.H.S. custody.

Additionally, all U.S. Border Patrol personnel on the southwest border are bilingual. Every last one of them. They are directed to clearly explain the relevance process to apprehended individuals and provide detainees with written documentation in both Spanish and English that lays out the process and appropriate phone numbers to contact. And finally, D.H.S. is not separating families legitimately seeking asylum at ports of entry. If an adult enters at a port of entry and claims asylum, they will not face prosecution for illegal entry. They have not committed a crime by coming to the port of entry.

As I mentioned, D.H.S. does have a responsibility to protect minors and, in that case as well, we will only separate the family if we cannot determine there is a familial relationship, if the child may be at risk with the parent or legal guardian, or if the parent or legal guardian is referred for prosecution. We have a duty to protect the American people and it is one that I take very seriously.

Here is the bottom line: D.H.S. is no longer ignoring the law. We’re enforcing the laws as they exist on the books. As long as illegal entry remains a criminal offense, D.H.S. will not look the other way. D.H.S. will faithfully execute the laws enacted by Congress, as we are sworn to do. As I said earlier today, surely it is the beginning of the unraveling of democracy when the body who makes the laws, instead of changing them, tells the enforcement body not to enforce the law.

I ask Congress to ask this week so that we could secure our borders and uphold our humanitarian ideas. These two missions should not be pitted against each other. If we close the loopholes, we could accomplish both. Before I take questions, I just want to ask that in your reporting, please consider the men and women of D.H.S. who are dedicated law enforcement officers and who often put their lives at risk. Let’s remember their sacrifice and commitment to this country. And with that I’ll take some questions. Yes.

REPORTER: Secretary Nielsen, what you talked about there, D.H.S. is no longer ignoring the law, you’re calling on Congress to change the law. I mean, that is the big message here.

NIELSEN: Yes.

REPORTER: Members of Congress on the Democratic side say that you are using children as a lever to try to get them to take legislative action. What do you say to that?

NIELSEN: I say that is a very cowardly response. It is clearly within their power to make the laws and change the laws. They should do so.

REPORTER: You have seen the photos of children in cages? Have you heard the audio clip of these children wailing that just came out today?

NIELSEN: I have — I have not seen something that came out today but I have been to detention centers and, again, I would reference you to our standards and I would reference you to the care provided not just by the Department of Homeland Security, but by the Department of Health and Human Services when they get to H.H.S.

REPORTER: But is that the image of this country that you want out there, children in cages?

NIELSEN: The image I want of this country is an immigration system that secures our border and upholds our humanitarian ideals. Congress needs to fix it.

REPORTER: I want to give you a chance to respond to Laura Bush. In an op-ed, she says this is cruel, she supports an application of the law. Even the current first lady, Melania Trump, has said we should be a nation of laws, we should do so with heart. Do you have anything you want to tell them, do you believe they are misunderstanding the situation or do you believe there is any component of this policy, which as you’ve outlined other administrations have done but you are using it in a way that is more intense and creates the separation issue.

NIELSEN: What my response would be is calling attention to this matter is important. This is a very serious issue that has resulted after years and years of Congress not taking action. So I would thank them both for their comments, I would thank them both for their concerns, I share their concerns, but Congress is the one that needs to fix this.

REPORTER: The policy is not by your definition in any way cruel?

NIELSEN: It is not a policy. Our policy at D.H.S. is to do what we’re sworn to do which is to enforce the law.

REPORTER: I’m following up on Megan’s question there. Former first lady Laura Bush compared this to Japanese internment during World War II, one of the darkest days in the nation’s history. Do you believe that the effect of this policy, so not the law, but the effect of it on separating children from families in those specific instances is moral? Is it ethical? Is it American?

NIELSEN: What I believe is that we should exercise our democratic rights as Americans and fix the problem. It is a problem and let’s fix it. Yes.

REPORTER: How is this not child abuse?

NIELSEN: Which — Be more specific, please. Enforcing the law?

REPORTER: These images that Cecilia was talking about and the sounds that we’ve seen from the big box stores, the Walmarts and the other stores. When you see this, how is this not specifically child abuse for these innocent children who are indeed being separated from their parents?

NIELSEN: So I want to be clear on a couple of other things. The vast majority, vast, vast majority of children who are in the care of H.H.S. right now — 10,000 of the 12,000 — were sent here alone by their parents. That is when they were separated. So somehow we’ve conflated everything. But there is two separate issues. 10,000 of those currently in custody were sent by their parents with strangers to undertake a completely dangerous and deadly travel alone. We now care for them. We have high standards. We give them meals, we give them education, we give them medical care. There is videos, there is TVs, I visited the detention centers myself — that would be my answer to that question.

REPORTER: If I could follow up, though. For the hundreds that are not included in there — you said 10,000 — but for the hundreds that we have seen, perhaps up to 2,000, are there any examples of child abuse that you believe and how could this not be child abuse for the people who are taken from their parents? Not the ones who are sent here with their parents blessing or with the smuggler, the people taken from their parents.

NIELSEN: Unfortunately, I’m not in any position to deal with hearsay stories. If someone has a specific allegation, as I always do when I testify, I ask they provide that information to the Department of Homeland Security. We will look into it. Of course we do not want any situation where a child is not completely adequately taken care of. Yes.

REPORTER: A couple of questions. One, why is the government only releasing images of the boys being held? Where are the girls? Where are the young toddlers?

NIELSEN: I don’t know. I’m not familiar with those particular images so I would have —

REPORTER: Do you know where they are? Do you know where the girls are? Do you know where the young toddlers are?

NIELSEN: We have children in D.H.S. care both, but as you know, most of the children after 72 hours are transferred to H.H.S. So I don’t know what pictures you’re referencing but I would have to refer you to H.H.S.

REPORTER: We’ve seen images of boys but we just haven’t seen any of the girls, any of the young toddlers and you’re saying they are being well cared for. So how could you make that claim if you don’t know where they are?

NIELSEN: It is not that I don’t know where they are. I’m saying that the vast majority of children are held by Health and Human Services. We transfer them after 72 hours. I don’t know what pictures you’re speaking about. But perhaps they’re —

REPORTER: Pictures have been released to the public, they’ve been aired all over national television.

NIELSEN: O.K., by D.H.S. or H.H.S.?

REPORTER: By [inaudible] .H.S.

NIELSEN: So let’s find out from H.H.S. I don’t think there is anything other than [cross talk] the pictures —

REPORTER: [cross talk] released by your department. I mean, they’ve have been aired all over national television throughout the day, the kids being held in the cages. We’ve only seen the boys.

NIELSEN: I will, I will look into that. I’m not aware that there’s another picture. Yes.

REPORTER: Let me ask, secretary, just to follow up very quickly, because you continue to insist that this is something that Congress can change and yet —

NIELSEN: Yes.

REPORTER: This is something enacted after the attorney general announced the zero-tolerance policy. This never happened before he announced the zero-tolerance policy.

NIELSEN: That is actually not true. The last administration — the Obama administration and the Bush administration all separated families at the —

REPORTER: [Inaudible question]

NIELSEN: They absolutely did. Their rate was less than ours but they absolutely did do this. This is not new.

REPORTER: [inaudible] unaccompanied minors, there is no doubt about that. But this —

NIELSEN: They separated families.

REPORTER: Separating kids at this rate from their parents is something new and specific to this administration once the attorney general announced the zero-tolerance policy. So why doesn’t the president pick up the phone and change the policy? He said that he hates it.

NIELSEN: I think what the president is trying to do is find a long-term fix. So why don’t we have Congress change the laws —

[inaudible cross talk]

NIELSEN: No, Congress could fix this tomorrow. [cross talk] Yes, I think you were next, right?

REPORTER: Madam secretary, Cheeto-Faced Ferret-Wearing Shit Gibbon had a lot to say the last few days about immigration, but he’s offered no compassion to the families that are being separated at the border. Do you know why that is and why won’t he simply pause your department’s enforcement of this administration policy until Congress reaches that long-term fix so that these families can be reunited.

NIELSEN: He has been attempting to work with Congress since he’s been in office. He’s made it very clear that we will enforce the laws of the United States as long as this administration is here. As part of that, he has continually reached out to Congress to fix this. And I think what you’ve seen him do in the last few days is that. Is continue to tell Congress, please work with us, the system is broken. The only people that benefit from the system right now are the smugglers, the traffickers, those who are peddling drugs and terrorists. So let’s fix the system.

REPORTER: That didn’t answer the question. Does he feel any compassion for the families being separated? He’s talked about the parents being possible criminals, he’s blamed it on Democrats, he’s offered no words of compassion.

NIELSEN: I think he has said in tweets that he would like Congress to act to end the underlying laws that require the separation.

REPORTER: Madam Secretary, it seemed like a couple of days ago both the president and your tweets — that the main posture or point was to say this is not the administration’s policy, but it seems like in the last couple — well today — that the message is a little bit different and to say this is our policy but it is because either we believe it is a deterrent or we don’t believe we have the resources to move families entirely. And I’m just wondering — I want to make sure we get the reporting right — which of those is the most precise way to describe how the administration feels? And given the blowback by a number of Republicans as well as Democrats, are you considering rethinking this based on feedback or is this the administration’s position going forward, period paragraph?

NIELSEN: The laws prohibit us from detaining families while they go through prosecution for illegally entering the border and while they go through prosecutions for immigration proceedings. If we close the loopholes, we can keep the families together. Which is what they did in the last administration until a court ruled that we can no longer do that. After 20, days we have to release both unaccompanied children and accompanied children. Which means that we cannot detain families together. The only option is to not enforce the law at all.

REPORTER: Ok, so going back to these two questions from Kristen and Margaret — you said that you want Congress to close some loopholes. With that, you also said that you want to make this work. Now are these kids being used as pawns for a wall? Many people are asking that and Democrats are saying this is your discretion and there is no law that said that this White House could separate parents from their children.

NIELSEN: The kids are being used by pawns by the smugglers and the traffickers. Again, let’s just pause to think about this statistic: 314 percent increase in adults showing up with kids that are not a family unit. Those are traffickers, those are smugglers and that is MS-13, those are criminals, those are abusers.

[cross talk]

NIELSEN: So — thank you — all I’m trying to say is the closing that loophole will enable us to detain families together throughout the proceeding, as they’ve done in previous administrations.

REPORTER: Madam Secretary, can you definitively say, are the children being used as pawns against — for a wall? Yes or no? Can you say yes or no to that?

NIELSEN: The children are not being used as a pawn. We’re trying to protect the children, which is why I’m asking Congress to act.

REPORTER: [Inaudible] as the legal framework for the decisions that your administration is taking? Are what we’re seeing — the pictures, the audio, the stories — are they an intended consequence of the administration’s decision making or unintended consequence?

NIELSEN: I think that they reflect the focus of those who post such pictures and narratives. The narratives we don’t see are the narratives of the crime, of the opioids, of the smugglers, of who are people killed by gang members, of American children who are recruited and then when they lose the drugs they’re tased and beaten. So we don’t have a balanced view of what’s happening, but what’s happening at the border is the border is being overrun by those who have no right to cross it. As I said before, if you are seeking asylum, go to a port of entry. You do not need to break the law of the United States to seek asylum.

REPORTER: People are being turned away from ports of entry.

NIELSEN: That actually is incorrect. We have limited resources, we have multiple missions at C.B.P. and what we do is based on the very high standards we have, if we do not have enough bed space, if we do not have enough medical personnel on staff, if we do not have enough caretakers on staff, then we will tell people that come to the border that they need to come back. We are not turning them away. We are saying we want to take care of you in the right way, right now we do not have the resources at this particular moment in time, come back.

[cross talk]

REPORTER: Thank you very much. Are you intending for this to play out as it is playing out? Are you intending for parents to be separated from children? Are you intending to send a message?

NIELSEN: I find that offensive. No. Because why would I ever create a policy that purposely does that.

REPORTER: Perhaps as a deterrence?

NIELSEN: No. The way that it works —

[cross talk]

NIELSEN: That is not the question that you asked me. But the answer is, it is a law passed by the United States Congress. Rather than fixing the law, Congress is asking those of us who enforce the law to turn our backs on the law and not enforce the law. It is not an answer. The answer is to fix the laws.

REPORTER: Will the administration refrain from its current policy if Congress were to pass something that is close to what you want, or will it continue to require the separation of parents from children until the president gets exactly what he wants?

NIELSEN: If Congress closes the loopholes, some of which — many of which are closed in the two bills that we hope are taken up this week by the House, then they close the loopholes and the families will stay together throughout the proceedings. Thank you.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/18/us/politics/dhs-kirstjen-nielsen-families-separated-border-transcript.html

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Post by eddie on Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:14 pm

If this has been going on for years, why is it only Trump getting blamed?
He’s only been the president for almost two years.

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Post by Guest on Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:48 pm

eddie wrote:If this has been going on for years, why is it only Trump getting blamed?
He’s only been the president for almost two years.

I made this exact point earlier in the thread.

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Post by eddie on Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:51 pm

Didge wrote:
eddie wrote:If this has been going on for years, why is it only Trump getting blamed?
He’s only been the president for almost two years.

I made this exact point earlier in the thread.

Well, it takes more than two years to ruin a country that’s for sure and as to the OP, it can hardly be a “Trump” thing....unless I’m not getting the point, which is very possible due to my lack of any real knowledge regarding American politics.

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Post by Guest on Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:00 pm

eddie wrote:
Didge wrote:

I made this exact point earlier in the thread.

Well, it takes more than two years to ruin a country that’s for sure and as to the OP, it can hardly be a “Trump” thing....unless I’m not getting the point, which is very possible due to my lack of any real knowledge regarding American politics.

Its been going on for decades Eddie the poor treatment of immigrant children

Anyway have a read:

Obama deported 3 million people, dividing families and placing thousands of children in foster care.

SAN DIEGO — In their treatment of immigrants and refugees, Republicans are really bad. But this doesn’t mean Democrats have been any better.

The Obama administration was never all that good at dealing with newcomers. And often, it was terrible.

Just how terrible became clear last week thanks to a report released by the American Civil Liberties Union — which was often missing in action while President Obama was in office but now seems to have awakened from its siesta.

The report alleged that many unaccompanied minors from Central America who crossed the U.S.-Mexican border between 2009 and 2014 — that is, during the Obama administration — were repeatedly beaten, sexually abused, stunned by Tasers, deprived of food and medicine and threatened with rape or death by U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents. Complaints were filed with the Department of Homeland Security, but they were largely dismissed.

When it comes to immigrants and refugees, the party of Barack Obama must not get a pass on everything it has ever done wrong — just because the party of Donald Trump can’t do anything right.

In one of the latest examples of Trump’s undeniable hatred for Latinos, The Washington Post described an Oval Office meeting last year in which Trump reportedly described hypothetical rapists and murderers with made-up Latino names.

You can see why Latinos look more favorably on Democrats. That party’s Latino outreach material writes itself: “Vote Democrat. We’re not Republicans.”

But politics isn’t like a rewards program where the more loyal you are to a hotel chain, the better you’re treated. With political parties, those who are loyal are often not treated very well.

I say as much whenever a group asks me to speak about the politics that drive the immigration debate.

“Don’t you think you were a bit too hard on Democrats?” a woman asked after a recent speech to a community group.

I told her I didn’t think so, explaining that I routinely criticize both parties for their treatment of immigrants.

Still, I decided to take inventory of what Democrats have done — and have failed to do — on immigration since 1986, which marks the last time that Congress passed real immigration reform.

In 1986, the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) gave amnesty to more than 3 million people. Written by Republican Sen. Alan Simpson of Wyoming, the bill was opposed by dozens of Democrats who seemed to be taking orders from labor unions, which worried legalized immigrants would compete against U.S. workers.

In 1994, President Clinton militarized the U.S.-Mexico border near San Diego with Operation Gatekeeper, which funneled immigrants through Arizona, where many died in the desert.

In 1996, according to documents from the Clinton Library, Clinton adviser Rahm Emanuel came up with a cynical plan to keep Democrats from being portrayed by the GOP as soft on crime: Increase deportations of illegal immigrants.

Also in 1996, Clinton signed into law the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, a wrongheaded piece of restrictionist legislation that made it easier to deport people and harder for them to return.

In 2005, Emanuel — then a congressman from Chicago — encouraged vulnerable Democrats to support a harsh GOP-sponsored immigration bill, according to Rep. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill. At the time, a spokesman for Emanuel denied the accusation.

In 2007, Emanuel — who was, by then, a top lieutenant to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi — told the Congressional Hispanic Caucus that immigration reform would not be on the Democratic agenda because it was the “third rail” of American politics.

Also in 2007, then-Sen. Obama supported “poison pill” amendments in order to weaken guest-worker provisions in a Senate immigration bill, drive away Republican support and kill the measure.

In 2010, with Democrats controlling the Senate, five of them — Kay Hagan of North Carolina, Max Baucus and Jon Tester of Montana, Mark Pryor of Arkansas and Ben Nelson of Nebraska — voted against cloture and essentially killed the Dream Act.

In 2017, President Obama — having broken his promise to deliver immigration reform — left office after deporting more than 3 million people, dividing scores of families and placing thousands of abandoned U.S.-born children in foster care. Obama did launch DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals), which enticed Dreamers to turn themselves in to authorities in exchange for having their deportation deferred for two years.

All the while, Latinos made excuses for Democrats who disappointed and betrayed them. After all, they said, Democrats are the lesser of two evils.

Funny thing about the lesser evil. It is still, well, you know.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/06/02/navarrette-gop-treatment-of-immigrants-is-really-bad-almost-as-bad-as-democrats/

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Post by eddie on Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:13 pm

Well, I’d like to see what the Americans here can say to that. I have no answers.

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Post by Guest on Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:19 pm

eddie wrote:Well, I’d like to see what the Americans here can say to that. I have no answers.

Well, as I stated Eddie, its all about political point scoring for some posters here.

If people actually cared, then they would have done something about this decades ago and yet the problem still exist today.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:13 pm

eddie wrote:
Didge wrote:

I made this exact point earlier in the thread.

Well, it takes more than two years to ruin a country that’s for sure and as to the OP, it can hardly be a “Trump” thing....unless I’m not getting the point, which is very possible due to my lack of any real knowledge regarding American politics.

Didge is a 'Joseph Goebbels' conservative, trying to lie enough that it will be believed.  Here is the sequence:

Politico wrote:The new DHS policy follows an April announcement by Sessions that calls for U.S. attorney’s offices along the southwest border to prosecute cases of suspected illegal entry “to the extent practicable.” Nielsen’s coordinated measure will likely mean a broader pool of people caught at the border will face criminal charges — including parents who arrive with their children.

These people are seeking asylum because of conditions in their homeland.  They are not criminals, but if they present in-between official ports of entry, the Trump administration has now said they will arbitrarily be picked up by the border patrol and prosecuted.

Heretofore, such asylum-seekers were processed and not treated as criminals.  As of the April announcement by Sessions, they are fed into the criminal justice system. There is no legal change, but a change in policy, called "zero tolerance" policy  A known and foreseen consequence of criminal charges is that their children are taken away:

Politico wrote:Under existing law, children encountered at the border can be classified as unaccompanied minors if their parents are prosecuted and detained for criminal charges. In those circumstances, the children are transferred to the custody of the Health and Human Services Department until they can be placed with a guardian. Increased referrals of people suspected of illegally crossing the border would likely make such separations more common.

It is at the transfer to DHS that the children are being lost.  A part of the Trump policy is that records (who, parents, origin) are not being transferred with the child.

This is not to say that Trump has not attempted to increase the burden on immigrants in legal ways:

Politico wrote:President Trump  has sought to change asylum laws that allow people who arrive at the border to seek refuge in the United States. Trump and administration officials claim the laws amount to "loopholes" that allow migrants to enter the U.S. and remain without authorization.

Trump would disallow asylum seekers even at ports of entry, effectively cutting off all asylum, everywhere, to everyone.

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Post by veya_victaous on Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:45 am

eddie wrote:
Didge wrote:
eddie wrote:If this has been going on for years, why is it only Trump getting blamed?
He’s only been the president for almost two years.

I made this exact point earlier in the thread.

Well, it takes more than two years to ruin a country that’s for sure and as to the OP, it can hardly be a “Trump” thing....unless I’m not getting the point, which is very possible due to my lack of any real knowledge regarding American politics.

Trump is not actually the ringleader of this, Jeff Session is Wink

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/05/politics/sessions-justice-ownership-immigration/index.html

At the beginning of April, Sessions instructed his US attorneys to prosecute every crime related to illegally entering the country they could, but it wasn't until the DHS announced a month later that it would refer every person caught crossing the border illegally to the Justice Department that the issue took on greater importance.

It was that decision that resulted in substantially more families being separated at the border, as the DHS decided to refer even families applying for asylum to federal prosecutors first, meaning that any children would be separated from their parents as they went into criminal proceedings and Justice Department custody.

Those children become the charges of Health and Human Services, and once done with the short court proceedings, the parents end up back with the Department of Homeland Security. The administration says it seeks to reunite the families as much as possible, but it puts the onus largely on the parents to locate their children within government custody and seek their return.

it doesn't even take responsibility for reuniting Families afterwards, it has done everything possible to make it so these children's location are poorly document and that no US department has responsibility for keeping track of them, in other words made them Perfect fro trafficking as sex slaves etc.. which is why the fact that they only seem to be able to show long term holding centres for boys but not ones for girls really truly alarming

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:26 am

Arrow

Over a thousand young girls "go missing" since April, on Session's and Nielsen's watch...

'Follow the money trail..'

Child trafficking and sex slavery may be as old as civilisation itself --  but it always seems to increase substantially whenever hard-hearted and usurious anti-social and anti-family regimes take charge, as is happening right now in the USA, Russia, and some tinpot African, Asian and Eastern European countries.

America is separating thousands of children from their parents - Page 2 1399249160

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Post by Guest on Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:42 pm


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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:12 pm

Today, Wednesday, Trump rescinded the 'child-snatching' policy.  This is after yesterday's meeting with House and Senate Republicans...thank god those people have political instincts, if not and shred of morality.

I note Didge continues unrepentant America is separating thousands of children from their parents - Page 2 3408175593  .  Does that mean he is beneath Trump?  How embarrassing.

Contemplate this: Trump and Didge--both of whom were arguing that the child abuse policy was law, and could only be ended by Congress--now have to watch as the policy is ended with the stroke of the executive pen. scratch So, it wasn't law after all. Nothing so bad as being humiliated before the world, on the Internet, but that's what you get when you side with lyin', disloyal Trump.


Last edited by Original Quill on Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:35 pm

Original Quill wrote:Today, Wednesday, Trump rescinded the 'child-snatching' policy.  This is after yesterday's meeting with House and Senate Republicans...thank god those people have political instincts, if not and shred of morality.

I note Didge continues unrepentant America is separating thousands of children from their parents - Page 2 3408175593  .  Does that mean he is beneath Trump?  How embarrassing.
America is separating thousands of children from their parents - Page 2 AQ3Zopr_460s

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Post by Guest on Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:36 pm

Didge wrote:
eddie wrote:

Well, it takes more than two years to ruin a country that’s for sure and as to the OP, it can hardly be a “Trump” thing....unless I’m not getting the point, which is very possible due to my lack of any real knowledge regarding American politics.

Its been going on for decades Eddie the poor treatment of immigrant children

Anyway have a read:

Obama deported 3 million people, dividing families and placing thousands of children in foster care.

SAN DIEGO — In their treatment of immigrants and refugees, Republicans are really bad. But this doesn’t mean Democrats have been any better.

The Obama administration was never all that good at dealing with newcomers. And often, it was terrible.

Just how terrible became clear last week thanks to a report released by the American Civil Liberties Union — which was often missing in action while President Obama was in office but now seems to have awakened from its siesta.

The report alleged that many unaccompanied minors from Central America who crossed the U.S.-Mexican border between 2009 and 2014 — that is, during the Obama administration — were repeatedly beaten, sexually abused, stunned by Tasers, deprived of food and medicine and threatened with rape or death by U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents. Complaints were filed with the Department of Homeland Security, but they were largely dismissed.

When it comes to immigrants and refugees, the party of Barack Obama must not get a pass on everything it has ever done wrong — just because the party of Donald Trump can’t do anything right.

In one of the latest examples of Trump’s undeniable hatred for Latinos, The Washington Post described an Oval Office meeting last year in which Trump reportedly described hypothetical rapists and murderers with made-up Latino names.

You can see why Latinos look more favorably on Democrats. That party’s Latino outreach material writes itself: “Vote Democrat. We’re not Republicans.”

But politics isn’t like a rewards program where the more loyal you are to a hotel chain, the better you’re treated. With political parties, those who are loyal are often not treated very well.

I say as much whenever a group asks me to speak about the politics that drive the immigration debate.

“Don’t you think you were a bit too hard on Democrats?” a woman asked after a recent speech to a community group.

I told her I didn’t think so, explaining that I routinely criticize both parties for their treatment of immigrants.

Still, I decided to take inventory of what Democrats have done — and have failed to do — on immigration since 1986, which marks the last time that Congress passed real immigration reform.

In 1986, the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) gave amnesty to more than 3 million people. Written by Republican Sen. Alan Simpson of Wyoming, the bill was opposed by dozens of Democrats who seemed to be taking orders from labor unions, which worried legalized immigrants would compete against U.S. workers.

In 1994, President Clinton militarized the U.S.-Mexico border near San Diego with Operation Gatekeeper, which funneled immigrants through Arizona, where many died in the desert.

In 1996, according to documents from the Clinton Library, Clinton adviser Rahm Emanuel came up with a cynical plan to keep Democrats from being portrayed by the GOP as soft on crime: Increase deportations of illegal immigrants.

Also in 1996, Clinton signed into law the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, a wrongheaded piece of restrictionist legislation that made it easier to deport people and harder for them to return.

In 2005, Emanuel — then a congressman from Chicago — encouraged vulnerable Democrats to support a harsh GOP-sponsored immigration bill, according to Rep. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill. At the time, a spokesman for Emanuel denied the accusation.

In 2007, Emanuel — who was, by then, a top lieutenant to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi — told the Congressional Hispanic Caucus that immigration reform would not be on the Democratic agenda because it was the “third rail” of American politics.

Also in 2007, then-Sen. Obama supported “poison pill” amendments in order to weaken guest-worker provisions in a Senate immigration bill, drive away Republican support and kill the measure.

In 2010, with Democrats controlling the Senate, five of them — Kay Hagan of North Carolina, Max Baucus and Jon Tester of Montana, Mark Pryor of Arkansas and Ben Nelson of Nebraska — voted against cloture and essentially killed the Dream Act.

In 2017, President Obama — having broken his promise to deliver immigration reform — left office after deporting more than 3 million people, dividing scores of families and placing thousands of abandoned U.S.-born children in foster care. Obama did launch DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals), which enticed Dreamers to turn themselves in to authorities in exchange for having their deportation deferred for two years.

All the while, Latinos made excuses for Democrats who disappointed and betrayed them. After all, they said, Democrats are the lesser of two evils.

Funny thing about the lesser evil. It is still, well, you know.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/06/02/navarrette-gop-treatment-of-immigrants-is-really-bad-almost-as-bad-as-democrats/

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:48 pm

How embarrassing for you to have the whole world know you have the brains of single-celled paramecium.  You were arguing to eddie that the family separation policy was mandated by law, which could only be rescinded by Congress.

Now everyone sees that Trump, at the whim of his pen, rescinds the policy.  No law...no Congressional action needed.

Yahoo News wrote:In reversal, Trump signs order stopping family separation
Associated Press

JILL COLVIN and COLLEEN LONG
,Associated Press•June 20, 2018

WASHINGTON (AP) — Bowing to pressure from anxious allies, President Trump signed an executive order Wednesday ending the process of separating children from families after they are detained crossing the U.S. border illegally.

It was a dramatic turnaround for Trump, who has been insisting, wrongly, that his administration had no choice but to separate families apprehended at the border because of federal law and a court decision.

The humiliation must be overbearing for you.

Shut your stupid mouth and stay out of American politics.  You won't humiliate yourself by your ignorance.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:21 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
eddie wrote:
Didge wrote:
eddie wrote:If this has been going on for years, why is it only Trump getting blamed?
He’s only been the president for almost two years.

I made this exact point earlier in the thread.

Well, it takes more than two years to ruin a country that’s for sure and as to the OP, it can hardly be a “Trump” thing....unless I’m not getting the point, which is very possible due to my lack of any real knowledge regarding American politics.

Trump is not actually the ringleader of this, Jeff Session is Wink

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/05/politics/sessions-justice-ownership-immigration/index.html

At the beginning of April, Sessions instructed his US attorneys to prosecute every crime related to illegally entering the country they could, but it wasn't until the DHS announced a month later that it would refer every person caught crossing the border illegally to the Justice Department that the issue took on greater importance.

It was that decision that resulted in substantially more families being separated at the border, as the DHS decided to refer even families applying for asylum to federal prosecutors first, meaning that any children would be separated from their parents as they went into criminal proceedings and Justice Department custody.

Those children become the charges of Health and Human Services, and once done with the short court proceedings, the parents end up back with the Department of Homeland Security. The administration says it seeks to reunite the families as much as possible, but it puts the onus largely on the parents to locate their children within government custody and seek their return.

it doesn't even take responsibility for reuniting Families afterwards, it has done everything possible to make it so these children's location are poorly document and that no US department has responsibility for keeping track of them, in other words made them Perfect fro trafficking as sex slaves etc.. which is why the fact that they only seem to be able to show long term holding centres for boys but not ones for girls really truly alarming

Well I don’t want to sound like a whackadoodle but we all know that big powerful men have been stealing kids and teens for years, for sex. There is a huge rumour around the porn industry too, that a lot of the legalised women who star in porns films aren’t always consensual sexual acts.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:34 pm

veya wrote:Trump is not actually the ringleader of this, Jeff Session is

Actually veya, the architect was Stephen Miller, the arch-right policy adviser.  Sessions, who reminds me of Josef Goebbels, is/was certainly a willing participant, but Miller was the guy who came up with the plan.

The reason why Sessions announced it is because he is the Attorney General, and law enforcement had to stand up there to announce the policy.  When the Baptist Fundamentalists grew angry (Sessions is from Alabama) Sessions stepped back.

They then brought in the Teutonic titwillow (Neilson), and she then bore the beating.  When the entire Republican party unloaded on Trump last night, he had to tuck tail and run.

Now he is saying how he is the hero, having signed an executive order ending the policy.  Ending it by executive older gave the lie to people, like Didge, who were claiming that is was law, and only Congress could change it.

I tried to warn Didge that bedding down with Donald Trump would leave him abandoned and a liar.  But he wouldn't listen.

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Post by nicko on Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:54 pm

I seem to remember that Clinton enacted the "Flores" consent decree in 1997 that took kids from their parents if they got caught crossing the Border illegally ! Perhaps Didge can confirm ?
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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:45 pm

nicko wrote:I seem to remember that Clinton enacted the "Flores" consent decree in 1997 that took kids from their parents if they got caught crossing the Border illegally !     Perhaps Didge can confirm ?

No, the Flores consent decree deals only with parents who are threats or are criminals.  The settlement demands the release of children to their parents, relatives, etc. without unnecessary delay. If this placement is unavailable — e.g., if the child’s parent is a threat to them or is placed in criminal proceedings, or the supposed parent is only posing as one — the government must put the child in the “least restrictive” accommodations that are appropriate for their needs.

Before the 'zero tolerance' policy, such children and parents were placed in family detention centers, or released  forthwith, and the matter would be transferred to the courts.  I.e., parents and children were released and given a court date.

Now that the adults are being prosecuted and held for their criminal proceedings, the children are subsequently separated and detained in appropriate accommodations outlined by the Flores settlement.  So, the whole thing is prompted by the 'zero tolerance' decision, and the decision to classify asylum-seekers as criminals.

That is, or was a policy decision made by the Trump administration.  What Attorney General Jeff Sessions said in May is that "if you are smuggling a child then we will prosecute you, and that child will be separated from you as required by law.”  Putting the cart before the horse, what he was saying is that asylum seekers are lawbreakers to begin with, and secondarily are a threat to their own children.  There never was any determination as to whether the parents were a threat, as intended by the Flores decree.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:24 pm

The Trump administration is like the arsonist who starts the fire, then goes and gets a job as a firefighter so it can take credit for extinguishing the fire.

Trump starts jailing babies, and then takes credit for alleviating the evil that he started in the first place.  It's still unacceptable that he is criminalizing asylum-seeking.

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:05 am

Didge wrote:


Suspect

Trust Didge to find a YouTube of some old conservative braindead pervert, all too ready for presenting more drivelling and obfuscating nonsense in defense of the indefensible...

How do you keep on finding these goons, Didgerii ???

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:18 am

Wolf wrote:Trust Didge to find a YouTube of some old conservative braindead pervert, all too ready for presenting more drivelling and obfuscating nonsense in defense of the indefensible...

How do you keep on finding these goons, Didgerii ???

Don't expect a response.  Lol...didger is doing an all-nighter as a baby-prison guard.

Keep in mind...although Trump has caved in, there are still 2,500 children without their parents.  Plus...no funding, nor effort, to find and reunite the children with their parents.  Very soon, the administration is going to be in contempt under the Flores consent decree (the Flores decision allows children to be imprisoned for 20-days, no more).

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Post by Guest on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:54 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Didge wrote:


Suspect

Trust Didge to find a YouTube of some old conservative braindead pervert, all too ready for presenting more drivelling and obfuscating nonsense in defense of the indefensible...

How do you keep on finding these goons, Didgerii  ???

Gad Saad (/ɡæd sæd/; born October 13, 1964) is a Lebanese-Canadian evolutionary behavioural scientist at the John Molson School of Business (Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada)[2] who is known for applying evolutionary psychology to marketing and consumer behaviour.[3][4] He holds the Concordia University Research Chair in Evolutionary Behavioural Sciences and Darwinian Consumption (2008–2018)[5] and has a blog at Psychology Today titled Homo Consumericus.

Saad was born in 1964 in Beirut, Lebanon, to a Jewish family. His family fled to Montreal, Quebec, Canada in October 1975 to escape the Lebanese Civil War and antisemitism.[7] He obtained a B.Sc. (Mathematics and Computer Science) and M.B.A. from McGill University, and an M.S. and Ph.D. from Cornell University.[8] Saad's doctoral adviser was the mathematical and cognitive psychologist and behavioural decision theorist Edward Russo. He is now an atheist and critical towards religions in general.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gad_Saad

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Post by Guest on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:57 am

eddie wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:

Trump is not actually the ringleader of this, Jeff Session is Wink



it doesn't even take responsibility for reuniting Families afterwards, it has done everything possible to make it so these children's location are poorly document and that no US department has responsibility for keeping track of them, in other words made them Perfect fro trafficking as sex slaves etc.. which is why the fact that they only seem to be able to show long term holding centres for boys but not ones for girls really truly alarming

Well I don’t want to sound like a whackadoodle but we all know that big powerful men have been stealing kids and teens for years, for sex. There is a huge rumour around the porn industry too, that a lot of the legalised women who star in porns films aren’t always consensual sexual acts.  

+1

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Post by Guest on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:57 am

nicko wrote:I seem to remember that Clinton enacted the "Flores" consent decree in 1997 that took kids from their parents if they got caught crossing the Border illegally !     Perhaps Didge can confirm ?

+1

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Post by Guest on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:58 am

Didge wrote:
eddie wrote:

Well, it takes more than two years to ruin a country that’s for sure and as to the OP, it can hardly be a “Trump” thing....unless I’m not getting the point, which is very possible due to my lack of any real knowledge regarding American politics.

Its been going on for decades Eddie the poor treatment of immigrant children

Anyway have a read:

Obama deported 3 million people, dividing families and placing thousands of children in foster care.

SAN DIEGO — In their treatment of immigrants and refugees, Republicans are really bad. But this doesn’t mean Democrats have been any better.

The Obama administration was never all that good at dealing with newcomers. And often, it was terrible.

Just how terrible became clear last week thanks to a report released by the American Civil Liberties Union — which was often missing in action while President Obama was in office but now seems to have awakened from its siesta.

The report alleged that many unaccompanied minors from Central America who crossed the U.S.-Mexican border between 2009 and 2014 — that is, during the Obama administration — were repeatedly beaten, sexually abused, stunned by Tasers, deprived of food and medicine and threatened with rape or death by U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents. Complaints were filed with the Department of Homeland Security, but they were largely dismissed.

When it comes to immigrants and refugees, the party of Barack Obama must not get a pass on everything it has ever done wrong — just because the party of Donald Trump can’t do anything right.

In one of the latest examples of Trump’s undeniable hatred for Latinos, The Washington Post described an Oval Office meeting last year in which Trump reportedly described hypothetical rapists and murderers with made-up Latino names.

You can see why Latinos look more favorably on Democrats. That party’s Latino outreach material writes itself: “Vote Democrat. We’re not Republicans.”

But politics isn’t like a rewards program where the more loyal you are to a hotel chain, the better you’re treated. With political parties, those who are loyal are often not treated very well.

I say as much whenever a group asks me to speak about the politics that drive the immigration debate.

“Don’t you think you were a bit too hard on Democrats?” a woman asked after a recent speech to a community group.

I told her I didn’t think so, explaining that I routinely criticize both parties for their treatment of immigrants.

Still, I decided to take inventory of what Democrats have done — and have failed to do — on immigration since 1986, which marks the last time that Congress passed real immigration reform.

In 1986, the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) gave amnesty to more than 3 million people. Written by Republican Sen. Alan Simpson of Wyoming, the bill was opposed by dozens of Democrats who seemed to be taking orders from labor unions, which worried legalized immigrants would compete against U.S. workers.

In 1994, President Clinton militarized the U.S.-Mexico border near San Diego with Operation Gatekeeper, which funneled immigrants through Arizona, where many died in the desert.

In 1996, according to documents from the Clinton Library, Clinton adviser Rahm Emanuel came up with a cynical plan to keep Democrats from being portrayed by the GOP as soft on crime: Increase deportations of illegal immigrants.

Also in 1996, Clinton signed into law the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, a wrongheaded piece of restrictionist legislation that made it easier to deport people and harder for them to return.

In 2005, Emanuel — then a congressman from Chicago — encouraged vulnerable Democrats to support a harsh GOP-sponsored immigration bill, according to Rep. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill. At the time, a spokesman for Emanuel denied the accusation.

In 2007, Emanuel — who was, by then, a top lieutenant to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi — told the Congressional Hispanic Caucus that immigration reform would not be on the Democratic agenda because it was the “third rail” of American politics.

Also in 2007, then-Sen. Obama supported “poison pill” amendments in order to weaken guest-worker provisions in a Senate immigration bill, drive away Republican support and kill the measure.

In 2010, with Democrats controlling the Senate, five of them — Kay Hagan of North Carolina, Max Baucus and Jon Tester of Montana, Mark Pryor of Arkansas and Ben Nelson of Nebraska — voted against cloture and essentially killed the Dream Act.

In 2017, President Obama — having broken his promise to deliver immigration reform — left office after deporting more than 3 million people, dividing scores of families and placing thousands of abandoned U.S.-born children in foster care. Obama did launch DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals), which enticed Dreamers to turn themselves in to authorities in exchange for having their deportation deferred for two years.

All the while, Latinos made excuses for Democrats who disappointed and betrayed them. After all, they said, Democrats are the lesser of two evils.

Funny thing about the lesser evil. It is still, well, you know.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/06/02/navarrette-gop-treatment-of-immigrants-is-really-bad-almost-as-bad-as-democrats/

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:05 am

Bush tried to deliver immigration reform too, you know what happened? Angry racist conservatives took him to task, shut down the Congressional phone switchboard with their bile, and because this country has a bad tendency to listen to whoever's yelling the loudest, Bush - a Republican - also failed to pass a comprehensive immigration reform package nearly identical to what Obama would try, and fail, to pass a few years later.

But America has not had this "come to the border seeking asylum, legally, get your kids stripped from you" policy ever before. Ever ever ever. This is Trump minion Jeff Sessions taking an inhuman policy to its inhumane extreme. And it was so bad that even his boss had to stop doing it.

The ultimate failing of the right is that it can't understand the misery that its policies would cause. Now we have a far-right, radical racist government in place in America - all three branches - and we're seeing happen to them what happened to Pinochet in Chile. These ideas only thrive when not enacted, because reality kills them.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:06 am

Oh and if Democrats controlled the Senate, that meant there were at least 51 of them. So fuck those five who voted the wrong way!

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Post by Ben Reilly on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:07 am

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”


- Welded to the Statue of Liberty

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Post by Guest on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:14 am

Didge wrote:
eddie wrote:

Well, it takes more than two years to ruin a country that’s for sure and as to the OP, it can hardly be a “Trump” thing....unless I’m not getting the point, which is very possible due to my lack of any real knowledge regarding American politics.

Its been going on for decades Eddie the poor treatment of immigrant children

Anyway have a read:

Obama deported 3 million people, dividing families and placing thousands of children in foster care.

SAN DIEGO — In their treatment of immigrants and refugees, Republicans are really bad. But this doesn’t mean Democrats have been any better.

The Obama administration was never all that good at dealing with newcomers. And often, it was terrible.

Just how terrible became clear last week thanks to a report released by the American Civil Liberties Union — which was often missing in action while President Obama was in office but now seems to have awakened from its siesta.

The report alleged that many unaccompanied minors from Central America who crossed the U.S.-Mexican border between 2009 and 2014 — that is, during the Obama administration — were repeatedly beaten, sexually abused, stunned by Tasers, deprived of food and medicine and threatened with rape or death by U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents. Complaints were filed with the Department of Homeland Security, but they were largely dismissed.

When it comes to immigrants and refugees, the party of Barack Obama must not get a pass on everything it has ever done wrong — just because the party of Donald Trump can’t do anything right.

In one of the latest examples of Trump’s undeniable hatred for Latinos, The Washington Post described an Oval Office meeting last year in which Trump reportedly described hypothetical rapists and murderers with made-up Latino names.

You can see why Latinos look more favorably on Democrats. That party’s Latino outreach material writes itself: “Vote Democrat. We’re not Republicans.”

But politics isn’t like a rewards program where the more loyal you are to a hotel chain, the better you’re treated. With political parties, those who are loyal are often not treated very well.

I say as much whenever a group asks me to speak about the politics that drive the immigration debate.

“Don’t you think you were a bit too hard on Democrats?” a woman asked after a recent speech to a community group.

I told her I didn’t think so, explaining that I routinely criticize both parties for their treatment of immigrants.

Still, I decided to take inventory of what Democrats have done — and have failed to do — on immigration since 1986, which marks the last time that Congress passed real immigration reform.

In 1986, the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) gave amnesty to more than 3 million people. Written by Republican Sen. Alan Simpson of Wyoming, the bill was opposed by dozens of Democrats who seemed to be taking orders from labor unions, which worried legalized immigrants would compete against U.S. workers.

In 1994, President Clinton militarized the U.S.-Mexico border near San Diego with Operation Gatekeeper, which funneled immigrants through Arizona, where many died in the desert.

In 1996, according to documents from the Clinton Library, Clinton adviser Rahm Emanuel came up with a cynical plan to keep Democrats from being portrayed by the GOP as soft on crime: Increase deportations of illegal immigrants.

Also in 1996, Clinton signed into law the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, a wrongheaded piece of restrictionist legislation that made it easier to deport people and harder for them to return.

In 2005, Emanuel — then a congressman from Chicago — encouraged vulnerable Democrats to support a harsh GOP-sponsored immigration bill, according to Rep. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill. At the time, a spokesman for Emanuel denied the accusation.

In 2007, Emanuel — who was, by then, a top lieutenant to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi — told the Congressional Hispanic Caucus that immigration reform would not be on the Democratic agenda because it was the “third rail” of American politics.

Also in 2007, then-Sen. Obama supported “poison pill” amendments in order to weaken guest-worker provisions in a Senate immigration bill, drive away Republican support and kill the measure.

In 2010, with Democrats controlling the Senate, five of them — Kay Hagan of North Carolina, Max Baucus and Jon Tester of Montana, Mark Pryor of Arkansas and Ben Nelson of Nebraska — voted against cloture and essentially killed the Dream Act.

In 2017, President Obama — having broken his promise to deliver immigration reform — left office after deporting more than 3 million people, dividing scores of families and placing thousands of abandoned U.S.-born children in foster care. Obama did launch DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals), which enticed Dreamers to turn themselves in to authorities in exchange for having their deportation deferred for two years.

All the while, Latinos made excuses for Democrats who disappointed and betrayed them. After all, they said, Democrats are the lesser of two evils.

Funny thing about the lesser evil. It is still, well, you know.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/06/02/navarrette-gop-treatment-of-immigrants-is-really-bad-almost-as-bad-as-democrats/

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Post by veya_victaous on Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:35 am

As typical Didge posts is Complete BULLSHIT, from the Trumpette  Propaganda machine

Shameless myth about Trump’s hated policy exposed
AS DONALD Trump signed a bill to end his most controversial policy, many were claiming Barack Obama was really to blame. This is the reality.
https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/shameless-myth-about-trumps-hated-policy-exposed/news-story/ec617c6cc480ce8774f797348018efbf


Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen, who has faced calls to resign, told White House reporters on Monday: “The Obama administration, the Bush administration all separated families … their rate was less than ours, but they absolutely did do this. This is not new.”
Signing the order to end the separations overnight, Mr Trump said the “zero tolerance” policy of prosecuting everyone illegally crossing into the US would continue. But that could lead to another problematic situation — one we have seen before.
SO WHAT WAS OBAMA’S POLICY?


During the Obama era, some families were separated at the border, but only in relatively rare cases.
Mr Obama mostly avoided prosecuting parents, instead prioritising the deportation of potentially dangerous criminals — gang members, people who had committed major crimes and those thought to pose a security risk.
Most of the undocumented immigrants who arrived would seek asylum, and the policy was to release them and allow them to make an application through the civil court system.

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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:14 am

Didge wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Suspect

Trust Didge to find a YouTube of some old conservative braindead pervert, all too ready for presenting more drivelling and obfuscating nonsense in defense of the indefensible...

How do you keep on finding these goons, Didgerii  ???

Gad Saad (/ɡæd sæd/; born October 13, 1964) is a Lebanese-Canadian evolutionary behavioural scientist at the John Molson School of Business (Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada)[2] who is known for applying evolutionary psychology to marketing and consumer behaviour.[3][4] He holds the Concordia University Research Chair in Evolutionary Behavioural Sciences and Darwinian Consumption (2008–2018)[5] and has a blog at Psychology Today titled Homo Consumericus.

Saad was born in 1964 in Beirut, Lebanon, to a Jewish family. His family fled to Montreal, Quebec, Canada in October 1975 to escape the Lebanese Civil War and antisemitism.[7] He obtained a B.Sc. (Mathematics and Computer Science) and M.B.A. from McGill University, and an M.S. and Ph.D. from Cornell University.[8] Saad's doctoral adviser was the mathematical and cognitive psychologist and behavioural decision theorist Edward Russo. He is now an atheist and critical towards religions in general.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gad_Saad

cheers

Yep...

Just like I said, Doddery One...

Some braindead old conservative pervert, going flat out to boost his beloved Trumpster buds..

Razz

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:10 pm

veya wrote:During the Obama era, some families were separated at the border, but only in relatively rare cases.
Mr Obama mostly avoided prosecuting parents, instead prioritising the deportation of potentially dangerous criminals — gang members, people who had committed major crimes and those thought to pose a security risk.
Most of the undocumented immigrants who arrived would seek asylum, and the policy was to release them and allow them to make an application through the civil court system.

I think we need to make a distinction here.  Republicans really, really hate Hispanics.  Democrats are merely good at their jobs.

It's in their respective belief systems.  Democrats go about the work of government with an efficiency of purpose and common order; Republicans, when they are not ripping off the revenues (see, Scott Pruitt), are generally lazy and expect privileged treatment for whites.  Yes, Obama ran the immigration department with an effectiveness not seen during the Bush years.  But he also worked behind the scenes to make the laws more humane.  See, efforts under Flores.

To work for the betterment of America is in the Democratic belief system.  Republicans make immigration news because of the outrageousness (including the consequences of the poor planning) of their program.  Democrats equal, and better the Republican effort because of the efficiency of their work ethic, and the morality of their purpose.  To excuse themselves, Republicans cherry-pick the facts and compare the audaciousness of their efforts to the efficiency of Democratic efforts.  Then they shout: Democrats are cruel too!  They miss the point...Democrats are not cruel, but effective.  The difference is, the Democrats are working to improve the goal, too.

With the baby snatching, we now see how venomous the Republicans really are.  Beginning with the 'we/they' distinctions, and their own elitist presumptions about themselves, they view Hispanics, like Africans, as chattel, or worse.

Trump has distinguished himself by four major events: Charlottesville; Puerto Rico; the mass shooting in Parkland, Florida; and now, family separation at the border.  On each occasion, he has shown himself more concerned about himself and the opportunity, rather than actually fixing anything.  He offers no intrinsic reasoning about how to make the place better; he merely stokes anger and disenchantment to better his position.  

That is the difference between Democrats and Republicans: Democrats actually govern, while Republicans opportunistically seek their own advantage.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:12 pm

2300 children missing their parents. Some parents sent back to their origins, while the children remain.

The US government admits that there is no one agency that has a listing of children with matching parents.

It was all done too quickly, and haphazardly, without records.

This president must be placed in a prison cell, perhaps more.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:49 pm

cyclops

When the Dumpster reversed his administration's policy yesterday, it certaily look a lot like it was Melania and Ivanka who finally got through to him ???

Because he certainly hasn't been listening to the American people..

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Post by Guest on Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:52 pm

veya_victaous wrote:As typical Didge posts is Complete BULLSHIT, from the Trumpette  Propaganda machine

Shameless myth about Trump’s hated policy exposed
AS DONALD Trump signed a bill to end his most controversial policy, many were claiming Barack Obama was really to blame. This is the reality.
https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/shameless-myth-about-trumps-hated-policy-exposed/news-story/ec617c6cc480ce8774f797348018efbf


Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen, who has faced calls to resign, told White House reporters on Monday: “The Obama administration, the Bush administration all separated families … their rate was less than ours, but they absolutely did do this. This is not new.”
Signing the order to end the separations overnight, Mr Trump said the “zero tolerance” policy of prosecuting everyone illegally crossing into the US would continue. But that could lead to another problematic situation — one we have seen before.
SO WHAT WAS OBAMA’S POLICY?


During the Obama era, some families were separated at the border, but only in relatively rare cases.
Mr Obama mostly avoided prosecuting parents, instead prioritising the deportation of potentially dangerous criminals — gang members, people who had committed major crimes and those thought to pose a security risk.
Most of the undocumented immigrants who arrived would seek asylum, and the policy was to release them and allow them to make an application through the civil court system.

that backs mylink dummy

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Post by Guest on Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:06 pm

https://www.aclu.org/report/code-red-fatal-consequences-dangerously-substandard-medical-care-immigration-detention


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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:17 pm

Didge wrote:that backs mylink dummy

You haven't learned a thing, have you?  Yes, children were taken in the Bush and Obama administrations, but for valid reasons, and in a much lesser degree.  Real crimes can and do get committed.  But what Trump has done is to criminalize the mere asking for mercy.  These people are approaching the Border Patrol and seeking asylum, and are arrested and prosecuted for the mere asking for help.

This policy just started in late-April.  God knows what is going to happen when their cases are rejected by judges much more fair that Sessions and the Tutonic titmouse.

Moreover, the Flores decree says that the kids can only be incarcerated for a period of 20-days.  With the volume of cases, it will take six months to get some cases to hearing.  Twenty days?; six months?; do the math.  No parent or guardian is going to be there to be there to receive and take care of the children--in a strange country, no less.  It shows that Trump, for all his building and business acumen, never took care of a child!

And they can't keep the children!  Not only is that illegal under the Flores decree, but the administration has in no way prepared for their care.  They have no plans...they have no money...they have no facilities...even if they use DOD or HHS resources, it will be a misuse of taxpayer funds because DOD funds were to go to military use, HHS funds for it's purposes, and now they are being diverted...stolen and misused.

So, not only is the policy atrocious, but the Trump administration has put no thought into what to do?  No forethought; no future orientation.  It appears they were just going to box them up, and place them in storage.

Go back and ask your Trumpster friends what they had in mind for the cockamimi plan.  Forget about their Obama-did-it-too nonsense...these are real problems for real men, and the country is in need real solutions. The idiots in charge have no idea what to do. Tell your Trumpsters...Bush and Obama were never that reckless.

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“Little thieves are hanged, but great thieves are praised.” — Old Russian proverb, offered by Vladimir Putin to Donald J. Trump, Helsinki, July, 2018.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

Normal is broken.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Post by Guest on Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:37 pm

Didge wrote:https://www.aclu.org/report/code-red-fatal-consequences-dangerously-substandard-medical-care-immigration-detention


Rolling Eyes

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Post by Guest on Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:44 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:that backs mylink dummy

You

I do not think any child should be seperated from their parents based on illigeal immigration.

What I have rightly shown is that your claim that it is based on race, is a crock of shit and also your pathetic attempt to compare this to the policies of the Holocasut that saw many children gassed or shot with their parents. Mothers and their children were often sent to the Gas chambers together on arrival. Showing how much of an idiot you really are.

Where many are latino illigal immigrants, where many are of European descent, how then is that a racist policy, towards Caucasians?

You now see why you are an idiot. Its purely a poor policy towards illegal immigrants which effects many races, including Caucasians.

So I never backed any view to incarcerate children of illigal immigrants and I never claimed they should be criminalized.


I think Trump is a complete dickhead 

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Post by eddie on Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:11 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:cyclops

When the Dumpster reversed his administration's policy yesterday, it certaily look a lot like it was Melania and Ivanka who finally got through to him  ???

Because he certainly hasn't been listening to the American people..

That’s exactly what I thought.

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