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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

Do you believe there will be a judgement day for each and every one of us?...

I mean with all this talk of gays and homophobia God is supposed to love everyone right?...

Amd if he can forgive rapists and murderers for their awful sins,then surely he can 'forgive' a person for being gay surely?

I see a few contradictions in the things folk write.

So are we all going to have our own judgement day and stand in front of God, before he decide ps wether or not we can enter heaven?

I think it's nonsense myself like,  but I do believe in spirits.


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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:32 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
SEXY MAMA wrote:

Lol! The only one who is FALSE is you. We all know who you really are VOD  why the bloody pretence? You have been banned from every forum. Have you no shame?


@SM
dont worry that ust comes across has highly uneducated from Maine Coon


Allah = God

the Chrisitan God isn't even just called God,  despite what these uneducated narrow minded individuals think  Rolling Eyes  Rolling Eyes 
he is Jeahova and Jeahova is Allah.

what rubbish allah says i have no son, the God of the bible says this is my son in whom i am well pleased, in the bible the only way to the father is through the son, how could that be possible if it is allah who has no son...

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:07 am

Joy Division wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:

For inciting people to Rebel against a legal gov't, he was executed like a common criminal..
So Bin Laden wasn't a terrorist Because of all the Good things (from a Muslim perspective) he did in Afghanistan in the 80/90's?
How does what you said in anyway change the fact that we was a terrorist, he held illegal rallies to convince people to resist the gov't. the bible tells of him Actively inciting terrorism (from the perspective of the legal gov't of the time)

He is no different than the Imam comign to London and preaching that you need sharia laws.


...I never knew there was a government back then  Laughing 

Does it say anywhere in the bible that Jesus killed anyone or was unjustly violent or caused others to be?


@JD
the area was ruled by King Herod, Monarchy is a form of gov't, King Herod was a Vassel to Rome.

the disciple Simon was a Zealot, The zealots favored armed rebellion against Rome. They believed that God would deliver Israel with the sword. Their reasoning went back to the days of David.


Last edited by veya_victaous on Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:02 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:40 am

heavenly father wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:


@SM
dont worry that ust comes across has highly uneducated from Maine Coon


Allah = God

the Chrisitan God isn't even just called God, despite what these uneducated narrow minded individuals think Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
he is Jeahova and Jeahova is Allah.

what rubbish allah says i have no son, the God of the bible says this is my son in whom i am well pleased, in the bible the only way to the father is through the son, how could that be possible if it is allah who has no son...

Because Monotheists contradict themselves constantly!!! Fuck I'm not the one saying I believe the Rubbish between the books.

Like Didge Points out Bible FULL OF FUCKING CONTRADICTIONS so is the Koran BUT it still makes more sense than the bible. It is still book 3 in the Monotheist Trilogy.

When one reads the Koran what becomes apparent is that it does not advocate anything the Bible does in reference to God’s personhood.

Sura 19:20,34, Jesus praised his birth and then said, “I am the servant of Allah.” And Allah teaches, “It is not for God to take a son unto Him.”

Sura 43:59 states “Jesus was no more than a mortal whom Allah favored and made an example to the Israelites. They are unbelievers who say God is Messiah, Mary’s son.”

Sura 5:72-73, 5:75 “They do blaspheme who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary.” They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a trinity: for there is no God except one God Allah. If they do not desist from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him.”

SO Islam Returns Jehovah to the Metaphysical God, which doesn't have children like a mortal does.

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:26 am

Well put veya; I never get the Islamphonic obsession with separating Allah from Jehovah/Yahweh- they are quite clearly the same God of Abraham, Moses, Joshua and Jesus Smile

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:57 am

Eilzel wrote:Well put veya; I never get the Islamphonic obsession with separating Allah from Jehovah/Yahweh- they are quite clearly the same God of Abraham, Moses, Joshua and Jesus Smile

It cannot be the same god , the God of the bible says Jesus is his only begotten son. allah says he has no son. It isn't hard to work out

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:02 am

Maine coon lover wrote:
Eilzel wrote:Well put veya; I never get the Islamphonic obsession with separating Allah from Jehovah/Yahweh- they are quite clearly the same God of Abraham, Moses, Joshua and Jesus Smile

It cannot be the same god , the God of the bible says Jesus is his only begotten son. allah says he has no son. It isn't hard to work out


Where does it say in the Torah Jesus is the son of God?

The Jews saw the Messiah as a warrior king or Priest, not a son of God, in fact they did away with any association of a wife and son for you even read in the Old Testament many character including Solomon worshiped as such.

Veya is right, and your argument is based on the notion Jesus is the son of God, that is all but to Jews and Muslims there is no son of God, but all worship the same deity, the same stories just with alterations

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:03 am

The disagreement then in whether the same God had a son. Or do you think Abraham and Moses were polytheists worshipping two different Gods?

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:06 am

Eilzel wrote:The disagreement then in whether the same God had a son. Or do you think Abraham and Moses were polytheists worshipping two different Gods?


Hi Eilzel

What is interesting there and another contradiction in the Bible is to Abraham this deity was called El Shaddai, then to Moses he decides to change this to having no name, or Jehovah.


The argument used by Christians is absurd, basing this on their belief, even though Jesus only calls himself the son of man and claims to be a King, now if anyone claims to be a king over the ruling authority what does that make him?
A pretender to the throne or a terrorist

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:16 am

Not sure about terrorist didge, a terrorist uses violence/terror to achieve their aims by definition- a public nuisance or disturber of the peace is more apt I think Smile

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:18 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Joy Division wrote:

For inciting people to Rebel against a legal gov't, he was executed like a common criminal..
So Bin Laden wasn't a terrorist Because of all the Good things (from a Muslim perspective) he did in Afghanistan in the 80/90's?
How does what you said in anyway change the fact that we was a terrorist, he held illegal rallies to convince people to resist the gov't. the bible tells of him Actively inciting terrorism (from the perspective of the legal gov't of the time)

He is no different than the Imam comign to London and preaching that you need sharia laws.


...I never knew there was a government back then  Laughing 

Does it say anywhere in the bible that Jesus killed anyone or was unjustly violent or caused others to be?


Hi Joy

With the so called second coming Jesus is meant to return and unleash devastation of unprecedented violence but will not be the end of earth according to the scriptures, but will end the reign of Satan, bringing in a new age where Jesus will rule for a thousand years until the day of judgement. This is something many Christians tend to gloss over and ignore, as they believe this will happen, it certainly is not a peaceful second coming when billions are to be slaughtered

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:19 am

Eilzel wrote:The disagreement then in whether the same God had a son. Or do you think Abraham and Moses were polytheists worshipping two different Gods?

where does it say Abraham and Moses were worshipping two different God's ?

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:21 am

Eilzel wrote:Not sure about terrorist didge, a terrorist uses violence/terror to achieve their aims by definition- a public nuisance or disturber of the peace is more apt I think Smile

I like disturber of the peace, but a pretender to the throne would still be seen as a threat, being as his followers were political activists and some of them armed, he just did not have a big enough following to make any difference to Roman rule, but agree terrorist is a tad unfair, though we can only go by the biblical stories on this.

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:23 am

Maine coon lover wrote:
Eilzel wrote:The disagreement then in whether the same God had a son. Or do you think Abraham and Moses were polytheists worshipping two different Gods?

where does it say Abraham and Moses were worshipping two different God's ?


Well they did certainly have different names, which does pose a dilemma, as why would this deity have lied to Abraham then or in fact Moses over the name?

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:44 am

when does the bible mention muhammed, why does the koran make such a point of mistrusting, hating and killing the people of the book, the jews, if the the koran was from the same god the jews are still his chosen people..

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:16 am

Maine I didn't say it say it said they worshipped two gods. But what YOU are implying is that IF your God and Allah are NOT the same God, then YOU must think that Moses was a polytheist; since he he worshipped the God of the Jews, Muslims and Christians, which YOU say are TWO different gods- get it now? If your god and SMs god are NOT the same (they are but you say not) Moses and Abraham must have been worshipping two gods, ergo, by YOUR logic, polytheists.

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:22 am

Maine coon lover wrote:
Eilzel wrote:The disagreement then in whether the same God had a son. Or do you think Abraham and Moses were polytheists worshipping two different Gods?

where does it say Abraham and Moses were worshipping two different God's ?

YOU DID

Jews, which Moses and Abraham are, don't believe God can have Children either. So if they only difference between Christian god and Muslim god is that they don't believe that God has children directly (because "we are all god children") So do the Jews and Jesus Was also a Jew Suspect  Suspect  Suspect 

So are you saying that Jesus worshiped the Jewish/Muslim god and was fathered by a different god that the Christians worship? Because that is the Christian god could be different than the Jewish/Muslim one

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:35 am

heavenly father wrote:when does the bible mention muhammed, why does the koran make such a point of mistrusting, hating and killing the people of the book, the jews, if the the koran was from the same god the jews are still his chosen people..


how could the bible mention Mohammad? he lived 700 years after Jesus. And 400 years after the Bible was compiled.


Mohammad is Jesus's Spiritual successor and only appears in Book 3 of the trilogy
the Koran Mentions Jesus multiple times. being the hero of the 2nd book.

the Jews are only following the 1st book so loses their status as god's chosen by failing to follow Jesus. the Koran says Jews should be killed but Christians should be converted. Like it demands that Muslims Slave masters offer conversion to Christians and if they become Muslims they must be released from slavery.

It really is no worse than the Torah, and as the old testament is still part of the bible.



Imagine how annoy it would be if you had watched the Star Wars trilogy and then there was this Guy that refused to watch anything but the first Star Wars movie and kept going on about how great the first film was but still completely refuses to watch the next 2

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:31 am

allah is not the GOD of the bible .

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:41 am

veya_victaous wrote:
heavenly father wrote:when does the bible mention muhammed, why does the koran make such a point of mistrusting, hating and killing the people of the book, the jews, if the the koran was from the same god the jews are still his chosen people..


how could the bible mention Mohammad? he lived 700 years after Jesus. And 400 years after the Bible was compiled.


Mohammad is Jesus's Spiritual successor and only appears in Book 3 of the trilogy
the Koran Mentions Jesus multiple times. being the hero of the 2nd book.

the Jews are only following the 1st book so loses their status as god's chosen by failing to follow Jesus. the Koran says Jews should be killed but Christians should be converted. Like it demands that Muslims Slave masters offer conversion to Christians and if they become Muslims they must be released from slavery.

It really is no worse than the Torah, and as the old testament is still part of the bible.



Imagine how annoy it would be if you had watched the Star Wars trilogy and then there was this Guy that refused to watch anything but the first Star Wars movie and kept going on about how great the first film was but still completely refuses to watch the next 2

listen to yourself..lol

the bible gave prophercies of the Jesus coming as the saviour, why wouldn't it mention muhammed..

why would it say do not add to this book, so why would God have another book written...

how can you lose your status as chosen, God chose them...

and this is your science and math proof... :D 

again why would the God of the bible tell the people who read the koran to kill and hate the jews, it makes no sense and then when you add to that the differences in heaven, salvation, it is just so different

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:38 am

Maine coon lover wrote:allah is not the GOD of the bible .

THEN Please Explain



Jews, which Moses and Abraham are, don't believe God can have Children either. So if they only difference between Christian god and Muslim god is that they don't believe that God has children directly (because "we are all god children") So do the Jews and Jesus Was also a Jew Judgement day... - Page 5 Suspect  Judgement day... - Page 5 Suspect  Judgement day... - Page 5 Suspect 

So are you saying that Jesus worshiped the Jewish/Muslim god and was fathered by a different god that the Christians worship? Because that is the Christian god could be different than the Jewish/Muslim one


Please point out a fault in the logic presented.

Allah is God, the books are a trilogy. The Koran says it is following on from the teachings of Jesus.

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Post by veya_victaous on Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:55 am

heavenly father wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:


how could the bible mention Mohammad? he lived 700 years after Jesus. And 400 years after the Bible was compiled.


Mohammad is Jesus's Spiritual successor and only appears in Book 3 of the trilogy
the Koran Mentions Jesus multiple times. being the hero of the 2nd book.

the Jews are only following the 1st book so loses their status as god's chosen by failing to follow Jesus. the Koran says Jews should be killed but Christians should be converted. Like it demands that Muslims Slave masters offer conversion to Christians and if they become Muslims they must be released from slavery.

It really is no worse than the Torah, and as the old testament is still part of the bible.



Imagine how annoy it would be if you had watched the Star Wars trilogy and then there was this Guy that refused to watch anything but the first Star Wars movie and kept going on about how great the first film was but still completely refuses to watch the next 2

listen to yourself..lol

the bible gave prophercies of the Jesus coming as the saviour, why wouldn't it mention muhammed..

why would it say do not add to this book, so why would God have another book written...

how can you lose your status as chosen, God chose them...

and this is your science and math proof... :D 

again why would the God of the bible tell the people who read the koran to kill and hate the jews, it makes no sense and then when you add to that the differences in heaven, salvation, it is just so different


Even the Bible is the 2nd book, you do admit that correct, the Torah is first and becomes the old testament.

How could the Bible give prophecies of Jesus's coming when it was written after he was born, not even by him but by people that may have known him and a lot of it by it's own omission is written after his death. The old testament (mangled Torah) is rewritten after his death You can tell this by matching up the Torah (what Jesus followed) and the old testament.

The Torah Does Give prophesies of a messiah But never specifically say Jesus or the son of god. The messiah is meant to be a warrior king or Prophet, no one starts calling Jesus the 'Son of God' Till After the resurrection. And all the References Jesus makes to being son of god (very few) can be taken as he is a son of god because we are all children of god he never says he is the 'only son of god' Other people write that. BOTH the Torah and Koran say we are 'all children of god'.

And it is fact that the Bible We know today was compiled by emperor Constantine in the 3rd century. Theological historians believe he may have used as little as 10% of the original texts. SO maybe he threw away the bit that explained that we are all children of god.


And The Jews lose the status of Chosen because WE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD. 'the Jews are the chosen' would be the old laws which you have already posted the quotes to show where cancelled by Jesus. And the Koran Clearly extends the chosen status to All humans.

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:28 am

veya_victaous wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

listen to yourself..lol

the bible gave prophercies of the Jesus coming as the saviour, why wouldn't it mention muhammed..

why would it say do not add to this book, so why would God have another book written...

how can you lose your status as chosen, God chose them...

and this is your science and math proof... :D 

again why would the God of the bible tell the people who read the koran to kill and hate the jews, it makes no sense and then when you add to that the differences in heaven, salvation, it is just so different


Even the Bible is the 2nd book, you do admit that correct, the Torah is first and becomes the old testament.

How could the Bible give prophecies of Jesus's coming when it was written after he was born, not even by him but by people that may have known him and a lot of it by it's own omission is written after his death. The old testament (mangled Torah) is rewritten after his death You can tell this by matching up the Torah (what Jesus followed) and the old testament.

The Torah Does Give prophesies of a messiah But never specifically say Jesus or the son of god. The messiah is meant to be a warrior king or Prophet, no one starts calling Jesus the 'Son of God' Till After the resurrection. And all the References Jesus makes to being son of god (very few) can be taken as he is a son of god because we are all children of god he never says he is the 'only son of god' Other people write that. BOTH the Torah and Koran say we are 'all children of god'.

And it is fact that the Bible We know today was compiled by emperor Constantine in the 3rd century. Theological historians believe he may have used as little as 10% of the original texts. SO maybe he threw away the bit that explained that we are all children of god.


And The Jews lose the status of Chosen because WE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD. 'the Jews are the chosen' would be the old laws which you have already posted the quotes to show where cancelled by Jesus. And the Koran Clearly extends the chosen status to All humans.

the OT is the old testament it does not become the second or anything, else, the bible for tells of the coming of Jesus and if it does that why would it not include muhammed if he was part of what God wanted to tell us..

every time a new fragment of scripture turns up it seems we always have it word for word right...how odd..

still waiting for the math and science though.. :D 

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:37 am

heavenly father wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:


Even the Bible is the 2nd book, you do admit that correct, the Torah is first and becomes the old testament.

How could the Bible give prophecies of Jesus's coming when it was written after he was born, not even by him but by people that may have known him and a lot of it by it's own omission is written after his death. The old testament (mangled Torah) is rewritten after his death You can tell this by matching up the Torah (what Jesus followed) and the old testament.

The Torah Does Give prophesies of a messiah But never specifically say Jesus or the son of god. The messiah is meant to be a warrior king or Prophet, no one starts calling Jesus the 'Son of God' Till After the resurrection. And all the References Jesus makes to being son of god (very few) can be taken as he is a son of god because we are all children of god he never says he is the 'only son of god' Other people write that. BOTH the Torah and Koran say we are 'all children of god'.

And it is fact that the Bible We know today was compiled by emperor Constantine in the 3rd century. Theological historians believe he may have used as little as 10% of the original texts. SO maybe he threw away the bit that explained that we are all children of god.


And The Jews lose the status of Chosen because WE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD. 'the Jews are the chosen' would be the old laws which you have already posted the quotes to show where cancelled by Jesus. And the Koran Clearly extends the chosen status to All humans.

the OT is the old testament it does not become the second or anything, else, the bible for tells of the coming of Jesus and if it does that why would it not include muhammed if he was part of what God wanted to tell us..

every time a new fragment of scripture turns up it seems we always have it word for word right...how odd..

still waiting for the math and science though.. :D 


Really, it states the coming of an Messiah, a warrior Messiah like David, what they got then was someone who failed, who never freed them and was thus crucified. That is not what was predicted.
So how does Jesus fit the prophecy in the bible?
He does not, the New testament writers even have different views on this also.
Do you believe the whole bible is the word of God?

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:40 am

Let's make this easy shall we;

Heavenly Father and Maine, do you or do you not worship the God previously worshipped by Abraham and Moses?

A simple yes or no will suffice Smile

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:44 am

I've never been savvy whatsoever on religion, but at primary school I do remember we were taught Jesus was the son of God...

So is that all a lie then?

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:46 am

Joy Division wrote:I've never been savvy whatsoever on religion, but at primary school I do remember we were taught Jesus was the son of God...

So is that all a lie then?


Many early Christians just saw Jesus as a messiah Joy and were very much still Jews.


Please see for yourself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:46 am

Do people see what I mean when I said on ADO that some historians lied, or were mixed up, or were told to tell lies in their writings to suit someone else, as well as people in this day and age getting their wires crossed. Rolling Eyes 

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:46 am

Do people see what I mean when I said on ADO that some historians lied, or were mixed up, or were told to tell lies in their writings to suit someone else, as well as people in this day and age getting their wires crossed. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:53 am

PhilDidge wrote:
Joy Division wrote:I've never been savvy whatsoever on religion, but at primary school I do remember we were taught Jesus was the son of God...

So is that all a lie then?


Many early Christians just saw Jesus as a messiah Joy and were very much still Jews.


Please see for yourself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian


But that's just the beliefs of one group of people though Didge, I never even knew there were Jewish Christians  Laughing ....


I thought every other religion, including Christians were bastards toward the Jews?, I thought the Jews had been kicked from pillar to post by every other religion?

Amd at school I was taught(but never listened Laughing ) that Jesus a jurist was the son of God, bit Veya says that is not true!...

You remember my post on ADO about some historians being pissed or corrupt?...I think I was right.

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:57 am

Joy these Jewish Christians were followers of Christ, including his family, it shows the different concepts and that today people follow the views of Paul who never followed Christ but claims only to have seen him in a vision.

That speaks volumes of how events played a part in how his viewed outlived the Jewish Christians, to the extent this is what many Christians follow today

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:06 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

the OT is the old testament it does not become the second or anything, else, the bible for tells of the coming of Jesus and if it does that why would it not include muhammed if he was part of what God wanted to tell us..

every time a new fragment of scripture turns up it seems we always have it word for word right...how odd..

still waiting for the math and science though.. :D 


Really, it states the coming of an Messiah, a warrior Messiah like David, what they got then was someone who failed, who never freed them and was thus crucified. That is not what was predicted.
So how does Jesus fit the prophecy in the bible?
He does not, the New testament writers even have different views on this also.
Do you believe the whole bible is the word of God?  

it tells you the birth place, how he is the saviour, his manner of death and where he will die among many other things, how much more do you want..

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:08 pm

PhilDidge wrote:Joy these Jewish Christians were followers of Christ, including his family, it shows the different concepts and that today people follow the views of Paul who never followed Christ but claims only to have seen him in a vision.

That speaks volumes of how events played a part in how his viewed outlived the Jewish Christians, to the extent this is what many Christians follow today    


Does that mean that those Jewish Christians never acknowledged Jesus as being the son of God then Didge?..tbh, I think it's all one big mess, which nobody in this world has a stone wall answer too, all following scriptures of what THEY believe.


Bit if like Veya says, Jesus was not the son of God, I wouldn't think schools would be teaching kids that he was.


Last edited by Joy Division on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:08 pm

heavenly father wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Really, it states the coming of an Messiah, a warrior Messiah like David, what they got then was someone who failed, who never freed them and was thus crucified. That is not what was predicted.
So how does Jesus fit the prophecy in the bible?
He does not, the New testament writers even have different views on this also.
Do you believe the whole bible is the word of God?  

it tells you the birth place, how he is the saviour, his manner of death and where he will die among many other things, how much more do you want..


Really, please show me all this from the Old Testament?

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:12 pm

44 Prophecies Jesus Christ Fulfilled
Prophecies About Jesus Old Testament
Scripture New Testament
Fulfillment
1 Messiah would be born of a woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20
Galatians 4:4
2 Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1
Luke 2:4-6
3 Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23
Luke 1:26-31
4 Messiah would come from the line of Abraham. Genesis 12:3
Genesis 22:18 Matthew 1:1
Romans 9:5
5 Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. Genesis 17:19
Genesis 21:12 Luke 3:34
6 Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. Numbers 24:17 Matthew 1:2
7 Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:33
Hebrews 7:14
8 Messiah would be heir to King David's throne. 2 Samuel 7:12-13
Isaiah 9:7 Luke 1:32-33
Romans 1:3
9 Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7
Daniel 2:44 Luke 1:33
Hebrews 1:8-12
10 Messiah would be called Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23
11 Messiah would spend a season in Egypt. Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:14-15
12 A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16-18
13 A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah Isaiah 40:3-5 Luke 3:3-6
14 Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8
Isaiah 53:3 John 1:11
John 7:5
15 Messiah would be a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:15 Acts 3:20-22
16 Messiah would be preceded by Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6 Matthew 11:13-14
17 Messiah would be declared the Son of God. Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:16-17
18 Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Isaiah 11:1 Matthew 2:23
19 Messiah would bring light to Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2 Matthew 4:13-16
20 Messiah would speak in parables. Psalm 78:2-4
Isaiah 6:9-10 Matthew 13:10-15, 34-35
21 Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted. Isaiah 61:1-2 Luke 4:18-19
22 Messiah would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Psalm 110:4 Hebrews 5:5-6
23 Messiah would be called King. Psalm 2:6
Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 27:37
Mark 11:7-11
24 Messiah would be praised by little children. Psalm 8:2 Matthew 21:16
25 Messiah would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9
Zechariah 11:12-13 Luke 22:47-48
Matthew 26:14-16
26 Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13 Matthew 27:9-10
27 Messiah would be falsely accused. Psalm 35:11 Mark 14:57-58
28 Messiah would be silent before his accusers. Isaiah 53:7 Mark 15:4-5
29 Messiah would be spat upon and struck. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67
30 Messiah would be hated without cause. Psalm 35:19
Psalm 69:4 John 15:24-25
31 Messiah would be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38
Mark 15:27-28
32 Messiah would be given vinegar to drink. Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34
John 19:28-30
33 Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16
Zechariah 12:10 John 20:25-27
34 Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed. Psalm 22:7-8 Luke 23:35
35 Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments. Psalm 22:18 Luke 23:34
Matthew 27:35-36
36 Messiah's bones would not be broken. Exodus 12:46
Psalm 34:20 John 19:33-36
37 Messiah would be forsaken by God. Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
38 Messiah would pray for his enemies. Psalm 109:4 Luke 23:34
39 Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side. Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34
40 Messiah would be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60
41 Messiah would resurrect from the dead. Psalm 16:10
Psalm 49:15 Matthew 28:2-7
Acts 2:22-32
42 Messiah would ascend to heaven. Psalm 24:7-10 Mark 16:19
Luke 24:51
43 Messiah would be seated at God's right hand. Psalm 68:18
Psalm 110:1 Mark 16:19
Matthew 22:44
44 Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin. Isaiah 53:5-12 Romans 5:6-8

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:13 pm

Joy Division wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:Joy these Jewish Christians were followers of Christ, including his family, it shows the different concepts and that today people follow the views of Paul who never followed Christ but claims only to have seen him in a vision.

That speaks volumes of how events played a part in how his viewed outlived the Jewish Christians, to the extent this is what many Christians follow today    


Does that mean that those Jewish Christians never acknowledged Jesus as being the son of God then Didge?..tbh,mi think it's all one big mess, which nobody in this we tore world has a stone wall answer too, all following scriptures of what THEY believe.


Bit if like Veya says, Jesus was not the son of God, I wouldn't think schools would be teaching kids that he was.


Arian Christians saw Jesus as subordinate to God and not God himself for example. Joy you are looking at this from a modern sense of view, when in is infancy Christians close to the character himself had different views to what you see today. It is because the Pauline view survived is why Christianity has flourished..

Look at Islam, that spread without any son of a deity or the fact Jews today think the same, it is clearly thus down to how this is taught and passed on to people

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:15 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Joy Division wrote:


Does that mean that those Jewish Christians never acknowledged Jesus as being the son of God then Didge?..tbh,mi think it's all one big mess, which nobody in this we tore world has a stone wall answer too, all following scriptures of what THEY believe.


Bit if like Veya says, Jesus was not the son of God, I wouldn't think schools would be teaching kids that he was.


Arian Christians saw Jesus as subordinate to God and not God himself for example. Joy you are looking at this from a modern sense of view, when in is infancy Christians close to the character himself had different views to what you see today. It is because the Pauline view survived is why Christianity has flourished..

Look at Islam, that spread without any son of a deity or the fact Jews today think the same, it is clearly thus down to how this is taught and passed on to people  


odd the jews knew Jesus was claiming to be God, so why would Christians think he was subordinate to God.


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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:21 pm

heavenly father wrote:
3 Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23
Luke 1:26-31
4 Messiah would come from the line of Abraham. Genesis 12:3
Genesis 22:18 Matthew 1:1
Romans 9:5
Thank you, so Matthew claims descendant from Joseph, not Mary and yet you posy would be born a virgin, so how could he descend from Abraham?
Doh, failed prophecy


5 Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. Genesis 17:19
Genesis 21:12 Luke 3:34
Again he is meant to be God, and thus is not descended from anyone,
Another failed prophecy


6 Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. Numbers 24:17 Matthew 1:2
That is New testament, not Old..Again he is meant to be God, and thus is not descended from anyone,
Another failed prophecy

7 Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah. Genesis 49:10 Luke 3:33
Hebrews 7:14
New testament
8 Messiah would be heir to King David's throne. 2 Samuel 7:12-13
Isaiah 9:7 Luke 1:32-33
Romans 1:3
New testament
9 Messiah's throne will be anointed and eternal. Psalm 45:6-7
Daniel 2:44 Luke 1:33
Hebrews 1:8-12
New testament
10 Messiah would be called Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23
He is called jesus, another fail
11 Messiah would spend a season in Egypt. Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:14-15
Yet this is conflicted by Lukes account of jesus
12 A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16-18
Matthew (Matthew 2:17-18) quotes Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:15), claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod’s alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (Jeremiah 31:16-17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod’s massacre.
13 A messenger would prepare the way for Messiah Isaiah 40:3-5 Luke 3:3-6
14 Messiah would be rejected by his own people. Psalm 69:8
Isaiah 53:3 John 1:11
John 7:5
15 Messiah would be a prophet. Deuteronomy 18:15 Acts 3:20-22
16 Messiah would be preceded by Elijah. Malachi 4:5-6 Matthew 11:13-14
17 Messiah would be declared the Son of God. Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:16-17
18 Messiah would be called a Nazarene. Isaiah 11:1 Matthew 2:23
19 Messiah would bring light to Galilee. Isaiah 9:1-2 Matthew 4:13-16
20 Messiah would speak in parables. Psalm 78:2-4
Isaiah 6:9-10 Matthew 13:10-15, 34-35
21 Messiah would be sent to heal the brokenhearted. Isaiah 61:1-2 Luke 4:18-19
22 Messiah would be a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Psalm 110:4 Hebrews 5:5-6
23 Messiah would be called King. Psalm 2:6
Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 27:37
Mark 11:7-11
24 Messiah would be praised by little children. Psalm 8:2 Matthew 21:16
25 Messiah would be betrayed. Psalm 41:9
Zechariah 11:12-13 Luke 22:47-48
Matthew 26:14-16
26 Messiah's price money would be used to buy a potter's field. Zechariah 11:12-13 Matthew 27:9-10
27 Messiah would be falsely accused. Psalm 35:11 Mark 14:57-58
28 Messiah would be silent before his accusers. Isaiah 53:7 Mark 15:4-5
29 Messiah would be spat upon and struck. Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67
30 Messiah would be hated without cause. Psalm 35:19
Psalm 69:4 John 15:24-25
31 Messiah would be crucified with criminals. Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38
Mark 15:27-28
32 Messiah would be given vinegar to drink. Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34
John 19:28-30
33 Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced. Psalm 22:16
Zechariah 12:10 John 20:25-27
34 Messiah would be mocked and ridiculed. Psalm 22:7-8 Luke 23:35
35 Soldiers would gamble for Messiah's garments. Psalm 22:18 Luke 23:34
Matthew 27:35-36
36 Messiah's bones would not be broken. Exodus 12:46
Psalm 34:20 John 19:33-36
37 Messiah would be forsaken by God. Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
38 Messiah would pray for his enemies. Psalm 109:4 Luke 23:34
39 Soldiers would pierce Messiah's side. Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34
40 Messiah would be buried with the rich. Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60
41 Messiah would resurrect from the dead. Psalm 16:10
Psalm 49:15 Matthew 28:2-7
Acts 2:22-32
42 Messiah would ascend to heaven. Psalm 24:7-10 Mark 16:19
Luke 24:51
43 Messiah would be seated at God's right hand. Psalm 68:18
Psalm 110:1 Mark 16:19
Matthew 22:44
44 Messiah would be a sacrifice for sin. Isaiah 53:5-12 Romans 5:6-8

1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible.

2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled.

3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.


The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

6) John 19:33 says that during Jesus’ crucifixion, the soldiers didn’t break his legs because he was already dead. Verse John 19:36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: "Not a bone of him shall be broken." But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12 & Psalm 34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 & Numbers 9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about. And Psalm 34:20 seems to refer to righteous people in general (see verse Psalm 34:19, where a plural is used), not to make a prophecy about a specific person.

7) "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." Hosea 11:1. Matthew (Matthew 2:15) claims that the flight of Jesus’ family to Egypt is a fulfillment of this verse. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all. It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse ("Out of Egypt I have called my son").

Cool "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2 The gospel of Matthew (Matthew 2:5-6) claims that Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem fulfils this prophecy. But this is unlikely for two reasons.

A) "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb’s second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chronicles 2:18, 2:50-52 & 4:4).

B) The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did. It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make this verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.


Conclusion a failed prophet and not the same




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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:22 pm

heavenly father wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Arian Christians saw Jesus as subordinate to God and not God himself for example. Joy you are looking at this from a modern sense of view, when in is infancy Christians close to the character himself had different views to what you see today. It is because the Pauline view survived is why Christianity has flourished..

Look at Islam, that spread without any son of a deity or the fact Jews today think the same, it is clearly thus down to how this is taught and passed on to people  


odd the jews knew Jesus was claiming to be God, so why would Christians think he was subordinate to God.


Jesus claimed to be the son of Man did he not, so it makes sense to many Christians

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:23 pm

oh my goodness, do you really think they would say, "Hi this is god with us",,, this is hilarious,... :D :D 

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:24 pm

heavenly father wrote:oh my goodness, do you really think they would say, "Hi this is god with us",,, this is hilarious,... :D :D 

yes it would be hilarious, being as he never claimed to be

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:25 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:


odd the jews knew Jesus was claiming to be God, so why would Christians think he was subordinate to God.


Jesus claimed to be the son of Man did he not, so it makes sense to many Christians

yet the jews arrested her for claiming to be God did they not, so the jews knew and Christians knew, and "God with us" would kinda make it obvious too... :D 

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:27 pm

heavenly father wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Jesus claimed to be the son of Man did he not, so it makes sense to many Christians

yet the jews arrested her for claiming to be God did they not, so the jews knew and Christians knew, and "God with us" would kinda make it obvious too... :D 

Yes for claiming to be the Messiah

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:30 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

yet the jews arrested her for claiming to be God did they not, so the jews knew and Christians knew, and "God with us" would kinda make it obvious too... :D 

Yes for claiming to be the Messiah

No for claiming equality with the God, that was quite clear, why would they kill their messiah...

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:39 pm

heavenly father wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Yes for claiming to be the Messiah

No for claiming equality with the God, that was quite clear, why would they kill their messiah...


Really they ask him if he is Christ, he agrees, Christ being the Messiah. They then ask if he is the son of God, he replies (you say that I am)

Thus again they conclude he accepts this but never admits this, they again arrested him for claiming to be the messiah, try reading your own bible it may help


Also the Jewish elders ask Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus - accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews, not a god

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:42 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

No for claiming equality with the God, that was quite clear, why would they kill their messiah...


Really they ask him if he is Christ, he agrees, Christ being the Messiah. They then ask if he is the son of God, he replies (you say that I am)

Thus again they conclude he accepts this but never admits this, they again arrested him for claiming to be the messiah, try reading your own bible it may help


Also  the Jewish elders ask Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus - accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews, not a god

School boy error, ask a jew what it means when they see "I AM"... :D 

again why would they kill him if he was their messiah, why would they insist in a Crucifixion when that would be one of the prophecies of the messiah, it makes no sense..

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:42 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

No for claiming equality with the God, that was quite clear, why would they kill their messiah...


Really they ask him if he is Christ, he agrees, Christ being the Messiah. They then ask if he is the son of God, he replies (you say that I am)

Thus again they conclude he accepts this but never admits this, they again arrested him for claiming to be the messiah, try reading your own bible it may help


Also  the Jewish elders ask Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus - accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews, not a god



...I thought Moses was the King of Jews! Laughing Laughing

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:47 pm

heavenly father wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Really they ask him if he is Christ, he agrees, Christ being the Messiah. They then ask if he is the son of God, he replies (you say that I am)

Thus again they conclude he accepts this but never admits this, they again arrested him for claiming to be the messiah, try reading your own bible it may help


Also  the Jewish elders ask Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus - accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews, not a god

School boy error, ask a jew what it means when they see "I AM"... :D 

again why would they kill him if he was their messiah, why would they insist in a Crucifixion when that would be one of the prophecies of the messiah, it makes no sense..

That shows you did not read my last post


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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:48 pm

Joy Division wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Really they ask him if he is Christ, he agrees, Christ being the Messiah. They then ask if he is the son of God, he replies (you say that I am)

Thus again they conclude he accepts this but never admits this, they again arrested him for claiming to be the messiah, try reading your own bible it may help


Also  the Jewish elders ask Pontius Pilate to judge and condemn Jesus - accusing him of claiming to be the King of the Jews, not a god



...I thought Moses was the King of  Jews! Laughing Laughing


Nope, David, Saul, Solomon were kings of Israelites.
King of the jews would be the Kings of Judah

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:48 pm

the Jews had to make the claim that Jesus said he was the king of the Jews otherwise he was guilty of nothing under Roman law..

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Post by Guest on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:49 pm

heavenly father wrote:the Jews had to make the claim that Jesus said he was the king of the Jews otherwise he was guilty of nothing under Roman law..


Did jesus claim to be the Messiah?

take your time

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