London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

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London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:20 pm

[*]February marked the first time London had a higher murder rate than NYC
[*]A total of 15 killings were reported, with nine aged 30 or younger
[*]In March, there were 22 murders in the capital, including 11 deaths in 16 days  


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5566689/London-murder-rate-overtakes-New-York-time-including-11-killings-just-16-days.html#ixzz5BQ1kqsOs 
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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:36 pm



I will say it again... I posted about huge level of violent crime in London many times before... only for some to tell me I was making it up...!



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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Syl on Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:48 pm

Gang culture and drugs seem to be at the root of many murders.
Tackle that and the figures should drop.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:59 am



Tommy should be in seventh heaven...

The reality has finally caught up with his claims and predictions..

(There always is that few months time_lag to be allowed for, as well, between the actual crimes and the police releasing those crime rates -- even for more from last year; so the overall figures will keep on going up for a while..).

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by magica on Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:21 am

Syl wrote:Gang culture and drugs seem to be at the root of many murders.
Tackle that and the figures should drop.

So true Syl. Many are black on black. These gangs kill someone in another gang, they retaliate, and on it goes.

There are also random attacks too. Knives used in terrorism as well.

How can it be stopped, well they can't ban knives for sale so it will carry on.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Vintage on Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:53 am

There were gang problems in the 20/30's cut throat razors the weapon of choice and the 50/60's with flick knives, did that morph into football hooligan gangs or was that a separate thing, now we are back to street gangs, I don't know what the answer is, if its education, then we'll continue to have problems as its as underfunded and under disciplined as ever and what prospects do young people have these days, I doubt all but the highest paid jobs will compare with being involved in drug distribution.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Syl on Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:33 am

Pity National service wont ever be brought back, not in my lifetime anyway.
It was one way of teaching youngsters discipline and respect.....something that so many seem to lack now.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:35 am

Syl wrote:Pity National service wont ever be brought back, not in my lifetime anyway.
It was one way of teaching youngsters discipline and respect.....something that so many seem to lack now.

Thank goodness we dont, its why we have one of the best trained armies in the world, because its volunteers.

Why do we need the army to discipline people when those rasing children should be doing this?


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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Syl on Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:42 am

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:Pity National service wont ever be brought back, not in my lifetime anyway.
It was one way of teaching youngsters discipline and respect.....something that so many seem to lack now.

Thank goodness we dont, its why we have one of the best trained armies in the world, because its volunteers.

Why do we need the army to discipline people when those rasing children should be doing this?



Well going by the crime figures, not only murders but violent crimes in general, it isn't working.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12112024/Violent-crime-jumps-27-in-new-figures.html


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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:46 am

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

Thank goodness we dont, its why we have one of the best trained armies in the world, because its volunteers.

Why do we need the army to discipline people when those rasing children should be doing this?



Well going by the crime figures, not only murders but violent crimes in general, it isn't working.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12112024/Violent-crime-jumps-27-in-new-figures.html



So based on one city, we now have to bring back national service?

Again why are you taking away responsibility from those who raised them?

You also have not a clue, on some of the worst criminals

How about the Krays and Richardson gangs

How did National service work out for them?

Its not about discipline, but a combination of factors that lead youngsters into crime. Just claiming discipline as the problem, falls short of understanding crime altogether



Here is the lastest victims




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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Syl on Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:57 am

I'm not saying we have to bring back NS, I said it's a pity it wont be brought back. I also didn't say lack of discipline is the only factor.

We are talking of the crime figures now...not when the Krays were active in the 50's and 60's.

If a person is brought up with discipline and respect the odds are in favour of them treating others with respect.

If violent and sexual crime is on the increase...throughout the UK not just in London, obviously parenting skills are lacking somewhere.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:02 pm

Syl wrote:I'm not saying we have to bring back NS, I said it's a pity it wont be brought back. I also didn't say lack of discipline is the only factor.

We are talking of the crime figures now...not when the Krays were active in the 50's and 60's.

If a person is brought up with discipline and respect the odds are in favour of them treating others with discipline and respect.
If violent and sexual crime is on the increase...throughout the UK not just in London, obviously parenting skills are lacking somewhere.


That is the same thing, by saying its a pity it wont be back, as if that would sort out crime
Let me let you into a historical fact. Whilst we had national service in this country, we had some of the worst gangs in this country. You even had gangs like the Sabini's in the the 1920's.

So saying National service, is quite frankly a crock of shit and does not get to the core of the issue.

What leads people into crime

Of which there is varying multiple factors that lead to a higher risk of people falling into violent crime

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Vintage on Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:09 pm

Alright, no need to get on your high horse Didge.
Perhaps something like V.S.O. might be ok for a year or so, let them experience leadership, co operation of working in a team for a purpose they can see, might help open some young people's eyes to the reality of life and the potential they could achieve. If their parents can't or won't guide them, maybe someone else can, well obviously they do, people join gangs among other reasons, to belong, to be part of something and discipline, usually very harsh, is an accepted part of that.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:13 pm

Vintage wrote:Alright, no need to get on your high horse Didge.
Perhaps something like V.S.O. might be ok for a year or so, let them experience leadership, co operation of working in a team for a purpose they can see, might help open some young people's eyes to the reality of life and the potential they could achieve. If their parents can't or won't guide them, maybe someone else can, well obviously they do, people join gangs among other reasons, to belong, to be part of something and discipline, usually very harsh, is an accepted part of that.


How will any of the above prevent a violent sex criminal?

You see you think this is all about leadership and discipline

I think its a minor part of this.

One will be broken homes

Those in care

Some who are abused

Some who are adopted

Poverty

Area

Who they come into contact with and influence by

I could go on the list is endless, and on one point I agree is to find purpose and focus for them, but doing this Miltary style will as seen, just become an education center for some of worst criminals. Which is how the Krays used their time with National service

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Syl on Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:16 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:I'm not saying we have to bring back NS, I said it's a pity it wont be brought back. I also didn't say lack of discipline is the only factor.

We are talking of the crime figures now...not when the Krays were active in the 50's and 60's.

If a person is brought up with discipline and respect the odds are in favour of them treating others with discipline and respect.
If violent and sexual crime is on the increase...throughout the UK not just in London, obviously parenting skills are lacking somewhere.


That is the same thing, by saying its a pity it wont be back, as if that would sort out crime
Let me let you into a historical fact. Whilst we had national service in this country, we had some of the worst gangs in this country. You even had gangs like the Sabini's in the the 1920's.

So saying National service, is quite frankly a crock of shit and does not get to the core of the issue.

What leads people into crime

Of which there is varying multiple factors that lead to a higher risk of people falling into violent crime
In my opinion some sort of organised disciple like NS would be a good thing for some young people.

Didge...less of the 'crock of shit' remarks if you want to debate something....it puts me off.

You have your opinion, which is repeatedly saying its a parents responsibility...ITS NOT WORKING, hence the crime figures soaring over the last 3 years....and I have mine.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:20 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:


That is the same thing, by saying its a pity it wont be back, as if that would sort out crime
Let me let you into a historical fact. Whilst we had national service in this country, we had some of the worst gangs in this country. You even had gangs like the Sabini's in the the 1920's.

So saying National service, is quite frankly a crock of shit and does not get to the core of the issue.

What leads people into crime

Of which there is varying multiple factors that lead to a higher risk of people falling into violent crime
In my opinion some sort of organised disciple like NS would be a good thing for some young people.

Didge...less of the 'crock of shit' remarks if you want to debate something....it puts me off.

You have your opinion, which is repeatedly saying its a parents responsibility...ITS NOT WORKING, hence the crime figures soaring over the last 3 years....and I have mine.


Its not been working for centuries, whether we have national service or not

Hello, earth calling syl, you figured this out yet?

It is my opinion, its a crock of shit to think national service will sort out crime. It never did when we had it and it wont if we bring it back. As to me, its been tried before. Did it stop violent crime? 

No

No, I am saying part of the problem is parents in some cases, others its not. As again, there is a multitude of reasons that lead people into crime

Just craping on about discipline, fails to understand some of the most ardent criminals did national service

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1305512/Krays-How-National-Service-transformed-twins-gangland-thugs.html

You need to look at things with multi-views, not tunnel vision


Last edited by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by nicko on Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:23 pm

We need Sharia Law!
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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Vintage on Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:31 pm

Life for the majority of people is about doing stuff you don't always want to do at a particular time and place but if you want a home, a car etc you have to get on with it, you have to get up early in the morning, use crowded public transport, sit in your car in traffic jams and all that kind of thing,that comes with earning a living - that takes self discipline, which you've learned or of course you can take to a life of crime, especially illegal drug supply, people see the profits to be made doing this kind of 'work' at an early age and think, this is the way to do it.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:34 pm

Which is one of the reasons why we should either decriminalize and legalize many drugs. Its up to people what they do with their bodies and by making it legal for things like cannabis. Then you make it safer and cheaper for people. You take away a major criminal source from the streets with this. They lose revenue by this becoming legal.

That is just one approach though Vintage.

Anyway, catch you later

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Syl on Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:38 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:
In my opinion some sort of organised disciple like NS would be a good thing for some young people.

Didge...less of the 'crock of shit' remarks if you want to debate something....it puts me off.

You have your opinion, which is repeatedly saying its a parents responsibility...ITS NOT WORKING, hence the crime figures soaring over the last 3 years....and I have mine.


Its not been working for centuries, whether we have national service or not

Hello, earth calling syl, you figured this out yet?

It is my opinion, its a crock of shit to think national service will sort out crime. It never did when we had it and it wont if we bring it back. As to me, its been tried before. Did it stop violent crime? 

No

No, I am saying part of the problem is parents in some cases, others its not. As again, there is a multitude of reasons that lead people into crime

Just craping on about discipline, fails to understand some of the most ardent criminals did national service

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1305512/Krays-How-National-Service-transformed-twins-gangland-thugs.html

You need to look at things with multi-views, not tunnel vision
I don't have tunnel vision, and neither do I dismiss others suggestions as quickly as you do without thinking about them.

No one thing will ever stop violent crime, so every option has to be considered.

Discipline is an important part of growing up, it teaches respect and self worth, something that's obviously lacking in people who go out looking for victims.
Ideally it would be taught in the home, and in schools, and by society in general, but its not....obviously.

So other measures should be looked at.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Syl on Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:47 pm

Vintage wrote:Life for the majority of people is about doing stuff you don't always want to do at a particular time and place but if you want a home, a car etc you have to get on with it, you have to get up early in the morning, use crowded public transport, sit in your car in traffic jams and all that kind of thing,that comes with earning a living - that takes self discipline, which you've learned or of course you can take to a life of crime, especially illegal drug supply, people see the profits to be made doing this kind of 'work' at an early age and think, this is the way to do it.
I agree. 

If by the time you have reached your late teens and left education, and you still don't have self disciple and respect for others, it's a bit late to expect the parents to do anything about it, their time has passed.

Rather than waiting for someone to commit a crime or hurt someone, better to enlist them into some sort of organised military service or boot camp.
Not to teach them to go off to wars, but to try to make something of them before its too late and they end up rotting in a cell for years after damaging others.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:17 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:


Its not been working for centuries, whether we have national service or not

Hello, earth calling syl, you figured this out yet?

It is my opinion, its a crock of shit to think national service will sort out crime. It never did when we had it and it wont if we bring it back. As to me, its been tried before. Did it stop violent crime? 

No

No, I am saying part of the problem is parents in some cases, others its not. As again, there is a multitude of reasons that lead people into crime

Just craping on about discipline, fails to understand some of the most ardent criminals did national service

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1305512/Krays-How-National-Service-transformed-twins-gangland-thugs.html

You need to look at things with multi-views, not tunnel vision
I don't have tunnel vision, and neither do I dismiss others suggestions as quickly as you do without thinking about them.

No one thing will ever stop violent crime, so every option has to be considered.

Discipline is an important part of growing up, it teaches respect and self worth, something that's obviously lacking in people who go out looking for victims.
Ideally it would be taught in the home, and in schools, and by society in general, but its not....obviously.

So other measures should be looked at.


I dismissed it because the reality is and sadly a large number who come out of the army become homeless or turn to crime. As clearly things like PTSD effects many young men/women and they need all the support they can get.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/18/uk-armed-forces-veterans-prison-population-mental-health-issues

Hence why this is one area where we need to help many adjust back to civillian life.

Hence why I will easily dismiss something that has been tried to tested and in fact ends up being a factor that can lead people into crime

So again, its something I have thought about, because I do read as well as history, psychology and through this criminology. Hence why clearly discipline is not the key to solving crime, is it?

Vintage made a good point of a focus or focal point with leadership, which you can get with the army, but as seen this has also negative effects on people.

So when I read with dispair your comments, based again on some old concept, that clearly never worked in the past (national service) and does not work now. Is based off again a ill conceived view, that there was no crime in the past with national service. 

Yes there was plenty of crime and why I will dismiss something that clearly has not worked or deterred crime.

Hence the point at looking at this with a bigger picture. You need to look at the history of national service and why it never helped prevent crime levels. 

What you find is where there is a big disparity in relative poverty, then you will find higher crime rates. That is one of many major keys to look at, in understanding and tackling crime.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Vintage on Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:30 pm

I think much of it is about people becoming more and more anonymous. I live in an ex mining village, everyone knew everyone, so if you were naughty as a child you'd be told off with the addition of 'I know your aunty/uncle (whomever) and I'll be telling them'. These days the number of people I know personally or at least by sight is dwindling by the day (the place is handy and cheap, for those working in Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Merthyr etc, even Bristol) we are to have a mega school formed in the next village, which began life as a grammar school, small enough for the teachers to know everyone by name, another place to be generally anonymous. Jobs which were plenty with the mines, the steel works and foundaries feeding into small engineering, factories of all sorts shops etc., now just about all gone, nowhere to go except the zero hour call centres, and retail outlets in the cities where your just a number not a loyal job for life asset to a company anymore. Is it any wonder young people are adrift.
I'm watching a programme re problem pupils being sent to a boarding school in India the Indian Eton, I think its dubbed, the attitude of these boys is awful to see, especially one, who is sadly from the S.Wales area, his motto is 'can't be arsed'. The staff are of course 'in your face' as they are in good fee paying schools, they want you to achieve your best, for yourself, for them and for the school, they are hopefully turning out the best for India. Students in countries that still put a store in self discipline, respect for others and don't have a safety net of benefits, have far better education results though some go too far with the pressure to achieve) while the Uk is slipping down the ratings in many subjects.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Vintage on Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:41 pm

People I've spoken too on the whole enjoyed many of the aspects of the services inNational Service, the lasting frienships made with people of all backgrounds and all over the place. Many came from deprived backgrounds and/or criminal ones and it was the making of them. Times change though people once did what they had to do, now 'can't be arsed' is the phrase we hear and the attitude we see.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by magica on Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:17 pm

I agree with Syl and Vin regarding National Service. I've said this many times over the years.

If these gangs want to play with knives/guns, stick them in the front line in countries our boys have to go, and see how they square up to someone attacking them with a knife or shooting them. They'd run away!

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by magica on Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:19 pm

The Army has said they don't want them years ago.

They shouldn't have to have idiots in their service. How could they trust them to watch their back in a war or battle.

Makes sense eh?

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Vintage on Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:38 pm

I don't think many of them would be much use in the proper military, something on the lines of voluntary services like Voluntary Services Overseas or what was that International Youth Service, heard a lot about it in the 70's 80's, can't recall the name now.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:13 pm

Stop making excuses for violent thugs!!!


Many of them will have a long history of criminal activity, but continuously avoid proper punishment from the softly softly approach of our criminal justice system that also looks for excuses for the thugs...!


When in fact, earlier harsh intervention for lesser crimes would act much better as a deterrent for continuing with their behaviour...!



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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:24 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:Pity National service wont ever be brought back, not in my lifetime anyway.
It was one way of teaching youngsters discipline and respect.....something that so many seem to lack now.

Thank goodness we dont, its why we have one of the best trained armies in the world, because its volunteers.

Why do we need the army to discipline people when those rasing children should be doing this?

Cool

I agree wholeheartedly, Didge...

The best military forces in the world are those where people want to join...

Have a look at those countries where conscription has been removed, and we see some of the best performing and discliplined military units  ==   Britain,  Australia,  Canada,  New Zealand;  while the US and,Germany can both reinstate conscription during emergencies (whereas the likes of Britain, Oz, Canada and France would need an act of Parliament to reintroduce conscription during wartime --  as Oz and NZ did during the Vietnam War..).

Anybody who actually follows today's militaries would know that many modern armies don't want people who don't want to be there..

Contrary to the common but wrong-headed fallacy that forced conscription leads to some kind of "discipline", self respect and guidance, the very opposite is often the result  --  conscription often produces a lot of unhappy, surly and disenchanted people who feel that they have been forced into servitude to fight "other people's wars"  --  whereas those who joined up voluntarily are more often there to learn new skills, "serve their country" and do their best...

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:08 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Didge wrote:

Thank goodness we dont, its why we have one of the best trained armies in the world, because its volunteers.

Why do we need the army to discipline people when those rasing children should be doing this?

Cool

I agree wholeheartedly, Didge...

The best military forces in the world are those where people want to join...

Have a look at those countries where conscription has been removed, and we see some of the best performing and discliplined military units  ==   Britain,  Australia,  Canada,  New Zealand;  while the US and,Germany can both reinstate conscription during emergencies (whereas the likes of Britain, Oz, Canada and France would need an act of Parliament to reintroduce conscription during wartime --  as Oz and NZ did during the Vietnam War..).

Anybody who actually follows today's militaries would know that many modern armies don't want people who don't want to be there..

Contrary to the common but wrong-headed fallacy that forced conscription leads to some kind of "discipline", self respect and guidance, the very opposite is often the result  --  conscription often produces a lot of unhappy, surly and disenchanted people who feel that they have been forced into servitude to fight "other people's wars"  --  whereas those who joined up voluntarily are more often there to learn new skills, "serve their country" and do their best...


+1

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Syl on Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:58 pm

I don't think the men called up for NS  should be trained to go to war, I already said that if anyone bothered to read.
the forces don't want thugs and hooligans in their ranks, they want men who know what discipline is.

It could be run by ex military, knock some sense into some of them, like a boot camp, far better than allowing them to commit crime as and when they like.
It could also take some of the pressure off the police who obviously cant cope.

The figures are from Dec 2015, since then violent crime has risen even more.

"The murder rate in England and Wales has risen sharply for the first time in a decade at a time when police have diverted detectives to investigate historic sex abuse and allegations against tabloid newspapers.
New figures show that the number of murders and manslaughter deaths increased by 14 per cent last year bringing the annual total to 574, or 11 deaths a week.

Officials at the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said the surge was concentrated in London and the South East and described it as “peculiar”.

The ONS said overall crime recorded by the police rose by six per cent in the year to September, including a 27 per cent jump in violence against the person. It amounted to an extra 185,666 violent offences, bringing the annual total to more than 885,000 in England and Wales." 


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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:09 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Tommy should be in seventh heaven...

The reality has finally caught up with his claims and predictions..

(There always is that few months time_lag to be allowed for, as well, between the actual crimes and the police releasing those crime rates --  even for more from last year;  so the overall figures will keep on going up for a while..).

tongue


All my previous posts on high violent crime levels were not 'predictions' of any future crime levels... they were posts about actual high levels of violent crime!!!



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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:10 pm

What is the point of a national service if they would not be called to be used in combat.

That makes the idea redundent. As how do you decide which units to send into combat zones?

Then its going to cause friction within the army.

The army wants people who are committed to the job

Whether that be women or men

Sorry Syl, but you live in the past, we have a modern professional army and why its admired throughout the world.

Now back to my points

I dismissed it because the reality is and sadly a large number who come out of the army become homeless or turn to crime. As clearly things like PTSD effects many young men/women and they need all the support they can get.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/18/uk-armed-forces-veterans-prison-population-mental-health-issues

Hence why this is one area where we need to help many adjust back to civillian life.

Hence why I will easily dismiss something that has been tried to tested and in fact ends up being a factor that can lead people into crime

So again, its something I have thought about, because I do read as well as history, psychology and through this criminology. Hence why clearly discipline is not the key to solving crime, is it?

Vintage made a good point of a focus or focal point with leadership, which you can get with the army, but as seen this has also negative effects on people.

So when I read with dispair your comments, based again on some old concept, that clearly never worked in the past (national service) and does not work now. Is based off again a ill conceived view, that there was no crime in the past with national service.

Yes there was plenty of crime and why I will dismiss something that clearly has not worked or deterred crime.

Hence the point at looking at this with a bigger picture. You need to look at the history of national service and why it never helped prevent crime levels.

What you find is where there is a big disparity in relative poverty, then you will find higher crime rates. That is one of many major keys to look at, in understanding and tackling crime.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Vintage on Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:40 pm

There's also the possibility that it is just numbers, more people move in, some of whom may already be involved in crime and gangs and have just moved into the UK and London in particular to expand their operations or just to start their own 'business'. Maybe they've taken advantage of the cut backs in policing and just moved in to new territory, its not like criminals don't move around especially following on with people genuinely moving for work, maybe they start with their own countrymen and branch out.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:47 pm

Syl wrote:I don't think the men called up for NS  should be trained to go to war, I already said that if anyone bothered to read.
the forces don't want thugs and hooligans in their ranks, they want men who know what discipline is.

It could be run by ex military, knock some sense into some of them, like a boot camp, far better than allowing them to commit crime as and when they like.
It could also take some of the pressure off the police who obviously cant cope.

The figures are from Dec 2015, since then violent crime has risen even more.

"The murder rate in England and Wales has risen sharply for the first time in a decade at a time when police have diverted detectives to investigate historic sex abuse and allegations against tabloid newspapers.
New figures show that the number of murders and manslaughter deaths increased by 14 per cent last year bringing the annual total to 574, or 11 deaths a week.

Officials at the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said the surge was concentrated in London and the South East and described it as “peculiar”.

The ONS said overall crime recorded by the police rose by six per cent in the year to September, including a 27 per cent jump in violence against the person. It amounted to an extra 185,666 violent offences, bringing the annual total to more than 885,000 in England and Wales." 




Syl... firstly, why should all young men be forced to go through your suggested 'boot camp' style NS programme, when the vast majority are already well behaved/decent/law abiding people...?


Surely it should only be the violent criminal thugs who should be made to partake in it...?


Which brings me to my next point... shouldn't these violent criminal thugs already be going through a similar 'boot camp' style regime through a system that we already have, known as PRISON, every time they behave like violent criminal thugs...!?


Wouldn't it be better just to toughen up the prison system regime, and enforce a much stricter sentencing system for judges so that more convicted violent thugs actually go to these harsher prisons rather than getting let off with soft punishments such as 'community service/conditional discharge/fines' etc...!?


And instead of spending extra money on the setting up & running costs of the scheme you suggest... would be better to spend extra money on toughening up the prison system we already have in place, and creating more places in it so more violent criminal thugs could be given custodial sentences earlier on in their criminal offending rather than getting soft let offs (as listed above)...?



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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:49 pm

Vintage wrote:There's also the possibility that it is just numbers, more people move in, some of whom may already be involved in crime and gangs and have just moved into the UK and London in particular to expand their operations or just to start their own 'business'. Maybe they've taken advantage of the cut backs in policing and just moved in to new territory, its not like criminals don't move around especially following on with people genuinely moving for work, maybe they start with their own countrymen and branch out.


That is a fair point Vintage

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Vintage on Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:59 pm

To clear a point - I think Syl has already said she's not talking about a military style regime, just a team building, maybe character forming, confidence, see what you can do type thing. Many people now go to Uni, this is seen as a progressive next step to adulthood, again you meet people from all areas and backgrounds and make friends you may keep for life etc. I can't see why a similar kind of
gap year for people leaving school, perhaps who isn't going on to uni or an to an apprentiship, to give them some of the experience by working in charity schemes overseas perhaps, make a change from Ibiza for them.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:03 pm

Vintage wrote:To clear a point - I think Syl has already said she's not talking about a military style regime, just a team building, maybe character forming, confidence, see what you can do type thing. Many people now go to Uni, this is seen as a progressive next step to adulthood, again you meet people from all areas and backgrounds and make friends you may keep for life etc. I can't see why a similar kind of
gap year for people leaving school, perhaps who isn't going on to uni or an to an apprentiship, to give them some of the experience by working in charity schemes overseas perhaps, make a change from Ibiza for them.  


Sounds nothing like national service Vintage

Anyway, its in the earliest years of development and then onto the teens that can effect how a person will risk turning to crime. This is why I said people criminally minded going into the the likes of national service. Saw that as a management course for their criminal activities.

Earlier intervention is what is key, as well as tackling relative poverty. Again, its areas where there is more relative poverty, where you will see higher levels of violent crime.


Anyway, catch you later

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Vintage on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:13 pm

Well, we were poor and most of my school friends were, I don't recall any becoming career criminals. Doing something like voluntary service would probably have done me and my confidence the world of good, the thought of it would have been hell on earth for me but if I knew I had to do it along with everyone else I'd have done it - give me the choice and I wouldn't have.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:23 pm

Vintage wrote:Well, we were poor and most of my school friends were, I don't recall any becoming career criminals. Doing something like voluntary service would probably have done me and my confidence the world of good, the thought of it would have been hell on earth for me but if I knew I had to do it along with everyone else I'd have done it - give me the choice and I wouldn't have.  


You are not understanding what I am saying, are you Vintage?

I never said if you were poor, which I grew up in poverty, that you will defo turn to crime

I stated, that in areas where there is "relative" poverty. That crime rates were higher

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Syl on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:23 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Syl wrote:I don't think the men called up for NS  should be trained to go to war, I already said that if anyone bothered to read.
the forces don't want thugs and hooligans in their ranks, they want men who know what discipline is.

It could be run by ex military, knock some sense into some of them, like a boot camp, far better than allowing them to commit crime as and when they like.
It could also take some of the pressure off the police who obviously cant cope.

The figures are from Dec 2015, since then violent crime has risen even more.

"The murder rate in England and Wales has risen sharply for the first time in a decade at a time when police have diverted detectives to investigate historic sex abuse and allegations against tabloid newspapers.
New figures show that the number of murders and manslaughter deaths increased by 14 per cent last year bringing the annual total to 574, or 11 deaths a week.

Officials at the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said the surge was concentrated in London and the South East and described it as “peculiar”.

The ONS said overall crime recorded by the police rose by six per cent in the year to September, including a 27 per cent jump in violence against the person. It amounted to an extra 185,666 violent offences, bringing the annual total to more than 885,000 in England and Wales." 




Syl... firstly, why should all young men be forced to go through your suggested 'boot camp' style NS programme, when the vast majority are already well behaved/decent/law abiding people...?


Surely it should only be the violent criminal thugs who should be made to partake in it...?


Which brings me to my next point... shouldn't these violent criminal thugs already be going through a similar 'boot camp' style regime through a system that we already have, known as PRISON, every time they behave like violent criminal thugs...!?


Wouldn't it be better just to toughen up the prison system regime, and enforce a much stricter sentencing system for judges so that more convicted violent thugs actually go to these harsher prisons rather than getting let off with soft punishments such as 'community service/conditional discharge/fines' etc...!?


And instead of spending extra money on the setting up & running costs of the scheme you suggest... would be better to spend extra money on toughening up the prison system we already have in place, and creating more places in it so more violent criminal thugs could be given custodial sentences earlier on in their criminal offending rather than getting soft let offs (as listed above)...?


I don't think all young men/women should go Tommy. The ones at uni or holding down full time jobs, the ones still at college with no criminal record, let them get on with what they are doing.

So many youngsters aren't working, either because they cant find a job or they are not looking for one. Kids drop out of education, cant work full time till they are 18, and just bum around with all that spare time and nothing to do, often times getting into trouble.
For young people who have already offended... give them one chance then Boot camp/NS type of programme for them.....why not?

Better than community service and continuously letting them off with a a slapped wrist, and far better than prison which is where many of them will end up honing their craft.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:27 pm

Here Vintage, have a watch


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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:30 pm

Also...


"The murder rate in England and Wales has risen sharply for the first time in a decade at a time when police have diverted detectives to investigate historic sex abuse and allegations against tabloid newspapers..."


Officials at the Office for National Statistics (ONS) said the surge was concentrated in London and the South East and described it as “peculiar”.





New violent crimes occurring at street level has nothing to do with some police detectives being tasked with working on other ongoing investigations into crimes that have already happened!


How could it be anything to do with it...?


Does anyone really think that having a load of detectives sitting around at their desks doing nothing, would somehow stop violent criminal thugs attacking people on the streets...!?


Of course it wouldn't!!!


All that would stop is the detectives investigating and prosecuting muslem child rape gangs...!



Plus... as to the ONS saying huge rise in violent crimes in London and southeast being 'peculiar'...


It's not 'peculiar' at all... if you look at things without a pair of politically correct rose tinted blinkers on... It's glaringly obvious as to it being mostly blacks, but also Muslims and other ethnic foreigners who are responsible for the overwhelming vast majority of the violent thuggery... and is on the increase in Lon & SE because their populations are increasing here through high level immigration to these areas!!!


Compounded by years of stopping police from targetting violent criminal thugs for stop & search etc if they are black/muslem/foreign... as that has been deemed as 'racist' by the PC dipshits in charge...!



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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Syl on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:30 pm

Didge wrote:What is the point of a national service if they would not be called to be used in combat.

That makes the idea redundent. As how do you decide which units to send into combat zones?

Then its going to cause friction within the army.

The army wants people who are committed to the job

Whether that be women or men

Sorry Syl, but you live in the past, we have a modern professional army and why its admired throughout the world.

Now back to my points

I dismissed it because the reality is and sadly a large number who come out of the army become homeless or turn to crime. As clearly things like PTSD effects many young men/women and they need all the support they can get.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/18/uk-armed-forces-veterans-prison-population-mental-health-issues

Hence why this is one area where we need to help many adjust back to civillian life.

Hence why I will easily dismiss something that has been tried to tested and in fact ends up being a factor that can lead people into crime

So again, its something I have thought about, because I do read as well as history, psychology and through this criminology. Hence why clearly discipline is not the key to solving crime, is it?

Vintage made a good point of a focus or focal point with leadership, which you can get with the army, but as seen this has also negative effects on people.

So when I read with dispair your comments, based again on some old concept, that clearly never worked in the past (national service) and does not work now. Is based off again a ill conceived view, that there was no crime in the past with national service.

Yes there was plenty of crime and why I will dismiss something that clearly has not worked or deterred crime.

Hence the point at looking at this with a bigger picture. You need to look at the history of national service and why it never helped prevent crime levels.

What you find is where there is a big disparity in relative poverty, then you will find higher crime rates. That is one of many major keys to look at, in understanding and tackling crime.
Not to train them for the forces, to train them to be decent citizens instead of criminals, louts,  layabouts...or worse.

I never said there was no crime in the past, but standards have dropped and crime is soaring...not only in London as you stated earlier. throughout the UK.

The only PTSD they would suffer is because they have to get off their arses and follow orders.

Poverty is nothing compared to what it was post war, and even so, people have a far better chance of rising above it if they are prepared to become a decent citizen not a criminal ending up in jail.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Syl on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:32 pm

Vintage wrote:Well, we were poor and most of my school friends were, I don't recall any becoming career criminals. Doing something like voluntary service would probably have done me and my confidence the world of good, the thought of it would have been hell on earth for me but if I knew I had to do it along with everyone else I'd have done it - give me the choice and I wouldn't have.  
You talk good sense Vintage. Cool

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:38 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:What is the point of a national service if they would not be called to be used in combat.

That makes the idea redundent. As how do you decide which units to send into combat zones?

Then its going to cause friction within the army.

The army wants people who are committed to the job

Whether that be women or men

Sorry Syl, but you live in the past, we have a modern professional army and why its admired throughout the world.

Now back to my points

I dismissed it because the reality is and sadly a large number who come out of the army become homeless or turn to crime. As clearly things like PTSD effects many young men/women and they need all the support they can get.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/18/uk-armed-forces-veterans-prison-population-mental-health-issues

Hence why this is one area where we need to help many adjust back to civillian life.

Hence why I will easily dismiss something that has been tried to tested and in fact ends up being a factor that can lead people into crime

So again, its something I have thought about, because I do read as well as history, psychology and through this criminology. Hence why clearly discipline is not the key to solving crime, is it?

Vintage made a good point of a focus or focal point with leadership, which you can get with the army, but as seen this has also negative effects on people.

So when I read with dispair your comments, based again on some old concept, that clearly never worked in the past (national service) and does not work now. Is based off again a ill conceived view, that there was no crime in the past with national service.

Yes there was plenty of crime and why I will dismiss something that clearly has not worked or deterred crime.

Hence the point at looking at this with a bigger picture. You need to look at the history of national service and why it never helped prevent crime levels.

What you find is where there is a big disparity in relative poverty, then you will find higher crime rates. That is one of many major keys to look at, in understanding and tackling crime.
Not to train them for the forces, to train them to be decent citizens instead of criminals, louts,  layabouts...or worse.

I never said there was no crime in the past, but standards have dropped and crime is soaring...not only in London as you stated earlier. throughout the UK.

The only PTSD they would suffer is because they have to get off their arses and follow orders.

Poverty is nothing compared to what it was post war, and even so, people have a far better chance of rising above it if they are prepared to become a decent citizen not a criminal ending up in jail.


You are missing the boat again, when many are already criminals in the making

Hence it would have minimal to no effect.

You simple fail to understand areas that lead to crime

I never said poverty, but relative poverty.

These are facts, where there is little relative poverty, there is low crime rates

That means, where places have people genrally poor, they have low crime rates.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Syl on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:43 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:
Not to train them for the forces, to train them to be decent citizens instead of criminals, louts,  layabouts...or worse.

I never said there was no crime in the past, but standards have dropped and crime is soaring...not only in London as you stated earlier. throughout the UK.

The only PTSD they would suffer is because they have to get off their arses and follow orders.

Poverty is nothing compared to what it was post war, and even so, people have a far better chance of rising above it if they are prepared to become a decent citizen not a criminal ending up in jail.


You are missing the boat again, when many are already criminals in the making

Hence it would have minimal to no effect.

You simple fail to understand areas that lead to crime

I never said poverty, but relative poverty.

These are facts, where there is little relative poverty, there is low crime rates

That means, where places have people genrally poor, they have low crime rates.
Is crime caused by relative poverty another name for someone wanting what you have without actually having to work for it? Rolling Eyes

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Didge on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:46 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:


You are missing the boat again, when many are already criminals in the making

Hence it would have minimal to no effect.

You simple fail to understand areas that lead to crime

I never said poverty, but relative poverty.

These are facts, where there is little relative poverty, there is low crime rates

That means, where places have people genrally poor, they have low crime rates.
Is crime caused by relative poverty another name for someone wanting what you have without actually having to work for it?


Its certainly a factor that causes crime. An age old problem that has plauge humanity for tens of thousands of years.

The reality is, that crime is higher, where there is more relative poverty within an area.

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Syl on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:52 pm

I was very poor when I was growing up, true we lived in a poor area, so everyone I knew was in the same boat.

But as I grew up I mixed more with people who had plenty. I didn't want to rob them, I wanted nice things too so I went out and worked for them like most people did.
Now many more people have the chance to go on to higher education, another way to get out of the poverty trap.

Turning to crime isn't the right way, taking what someone has, or hurting them because they have it is just a good way to ruin your own and other peoples lives.
So if older kids haven't found that out by being taught right from wrong by their parents and teachers, maybe a training programme where right and wrong is drilled into them would work.


Last edited by Syl on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:53 pm

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:



Syl... firstly, why should all young men be forced to go through your suggested 'boot camp' style NS programme, when the vast majority are already well behaved/decent/law abiding people...?


Surely it should only be the violent criminal thugs who should be made to partake in it...?


Which brings me to my next point... shouldn't these violent criminal thugs already be going through a similar 'boot camp' style regime through a system that we already have, known as PRISON, every time they behave like violent criminal thugs...!?


Wouldn't it be better just to toughen up the prison system regime, and enforce a much stricter sentencing system for judges so that more convicted violent thugs actually go to these harsher prisons rather than getting let off with soft punishments such as 'community service/conditional discharge/fines' etc...!?


And instead of spending extra money on the setting up & running costs of the scheme you suggest... would be better to spend extra money on toughening up the prison system we already have in place, and creating more places in it so more violent criminal thugs could be given custodial sentences earlier on in their criminal offending rather than getting soft let offs (as listed above)...?


I don't think all young men/women should go Tommy. The ones at uni or holding down full time jobs, the ones still at college with no criminal record, let them get on with what they are doing.

So many youngsters aren't working, either because they cant find a job or they are not looking for one. Kids drop out of education, cant work full time till they are 18, and just bum around with all that spare time and nothing to do, often times getting into trouble.
For young people who have already offended... give them one chance then Boot camp/NS type of programme for them.....why not?

Better than community service and continuously letting them off with a a slapped wrist, and far better than prison which is where many of them will end up honing their craft.


Young people can work as soon as they get their NI card... they get this card just before their 16th birthday... they can work full time before the age of 18...


Also... nothing to do with being a violent criminal thug... as they can be all ages as well as working/not working/at college etc...



But I see that you agree there should be an end to 'slapped wrists', and that prisons should be changed from soft 'universities of crime', to a much tougher 'boot camp/military' style regime...!



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Re: London murder rate overtakes New York for first time ever including 11 killings in just 16 days

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