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dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by veya_victaous on Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

A MAN and his biological daughter who are reportedly “planning to get married” are facing incest charges after they allegedly had a baby together.

According to The Sun, Steven Pladl, 42, of Wake County, North Carolina, gave up Katie Pladl, 20, for adoption as a baby but she contacted her parents through social media when she turned 18, police said.

She went to live with her biological parents and their two children near Richmond, Virginia, in August 2016 before the couple legally separated three months later, according to local news channel WNCN.

The wife, who has not been named, told authorities that her husband would sleep on the floor of Katie’s room in the months before she moved out.

In May last year, she read in one of her children’s journals that Katie was pregnant with her father’s baby and that her husband Steven Pladl had told his other children to call Katie their stepmother, according to the arrest warrant.

When his wife confronted him, Pladl allegedly confirmed he had impregnated their adult daughter and that they planned to marry.

A week later, father and daughter moved to Wake County and in November last year a warrant was issued for their arrest.

They were located at an address last week, where officers discovered a baby boy who is understood to be the four-month-old child of the pair.

Steven and Katie Pladl were held at the Wake County Detention Center pending extradition to Virginia and charged with incest with adult, adultery, contributing to delinquency.

Court records show that Steven Pladl has been released on a $1 million bond while Katie Pladl, issued with the same bond, remains in jail.

According to the warrant, they are due to make their first court appearance on Monday.

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/american-dad-and-daughter-have-baby-plan-to-marry-face-incest-charges/news-story/9aa467e6ac6761f7f6d97c2a28398659

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:42 pm

magica wrote:


I can't debate this with Didge anymore. Can't believe he finds this acceptable.

So by his thinking, if a father finds his daughter sexually attractive, even underage, that makes the father a paedophile, so is that acceptable.
Because although he says their consensual adults, its so wrong.


I feel sick thinking about that.


Exhibit one

Never made any argument supporting underage sex


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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:44 pm

Syl wrote:

Incest, underage sex, bestiality, public indecency, similar  laws will stay.....so if you don't like them...emigrate to a more decedant society if you can find one, where you will probably fit right in.

Exhibit 2

I never argued to change the laws on beastiality, underage sex ect

So why did Sly group all these together as if I did?

Then I am told to leave the country, if I disagree with her on criminalizing incest

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:45 pm

magica wrote:Exactly Rags. What have we got to apologise for?

What, for having a different view to him. It's him who should apologise to us, calling us names when neither of us have to him.

I will not converse with him again

Whatever it was, he'll get over it. Laughing


Last edited by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:52 pm

the main reason incest is illegal is because of the genetic diseases which could occur. In the UK it's considered that first cousins are far enough apart to be less of a risk, so it's legal for them to get married. I gather that it's not legal in parts of the US.

There would be no point legalising incest and saying it's OK as long as the couple don't have children. Who would police that, and what would happen if they did? It's just easier to outlaw it altogether.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:53 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:the main reason incest is illegal is because of the genetic diseases which could occur. In the UK it's considered that first cousins are far enough apart to be less of a risk, so it's legal for them to get married. I gather that it's not legal in parts of the US.

There would be no point legalising incest and saying it's OK as long as the couple don't have children. Who would police that, and what would happen if they did? It's just easier to outlaw it altogether.

So homosexual incest would be okay then?

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:57 pm

Didge wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:the main reason incest is illegal is because of the genetic diseases which could occur. In the UK it's considered that first cousins are far enough apart to be less of a risk, so it's legal for them to get married. I gather that it's not legal in parts of the US.

There would be no point legalising incest and saying it's OK as long as the couple don't have children. Who would police that, and what would happen if they did? It's just easier to outlaw it altogether.

So homosexual incest would be okay then?

It doesn't bother me much. It's probably a bit icky but hey ...

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:01 pm

What bothers me more is these people who know there's an inherited disease in their family and the generations keep having children - things like Huntington's. There was a story about that in the news lately.

Then then are people who know they both carry a recessive gene which causes ill health, and they keep having children. I don't get that at all.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Syl on Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:20 pm

magica wrote:
Syl wrote:

Thank you Tommy, I must admit though it's one of the weirdest debates I have ever had on a forum. Evil or Very Mad

Me too Syl, I'm out of this thread now.  You made great posts, I support you all the way x

Thanks Mags x
I am out of it too...I just came back in it today to say thanks to you and Tommy. x



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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Tommy Monk on Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:39 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Do you now understand the concept of something that causes harm being wrong?

We KNOW children who are the products of incest have an incredibly high likelihood of being born with serious genetic problems. That is harm.

NOTHING else would matter.

Allowing incestuous couples to have sex is irrelevant because it isn't harming anyone.
Allowing incestuous couples to have children is harmful to the hypothetical children- it would be grossly irresponsible to allow that.

What part of something harmful or not do you not understand?

Are you saying we should criminalise incestuous couples because not doing 'might' lead to us legalising the birthing of children of incest?

The trouble is - how do you say to a related couple that it's OK but they're not to have children? How does anyone stop them having children? The best thing is to make incest illegal in the first place.


Homosexuality was decriminalised for similar arguments... eg, just two people who love each other who just happen to be the same sex, not harming anyone by expressing their love, doesn't affect anyone else, nobody else's business, allowing it is not encouraging it, never going to be children involved as they can't reproduce... etc...


Now they demand that their behaviour has the same status as normal heterosexual couples relationships, demand rights to marriage, protection from law against anyone who dares to disagree, and to be allowed to adopt children into their perverse 'relationship'...



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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:49 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Now they demand that their behaviour has the same status as normal heterosexual couples relationships, demand rights to marriage, protection from law against anyone who dares to disagree, and to be allowed to adopt children into their perverse 'relationship'...

In the inimitable words of Dick Cheney (on another matter), So?

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:00 am

It was decriminalised for reasons in paragraph A... if at the time, it was thought to have resulted in paragraph B being reality, as well as it being taught/promoted in schools to children, as being normal/natural and as equally legitimate as heterosexuality is normal/natural, then it would never have been decriminalised at all!!!



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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Eilzel on Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:20 am

Tommy Monk wrote:It was decriminalised for reasons in paragraph A... if at the time, it was thought to have resulted in paragraph B being reality, as well as it being taught/promoted in schools to children, as being normal/natural and as equally legitimate as heterosexuality is normal/natural, then it would never have been decriminalised at all!!!



Which tbf just shows how backward people's views were in the 1960s.

It is incomparable to the discussion on inquest at this point since gay marriage, gay equality, being allowed to adopt etc. causes no harm and only had benefits.

Incestuous couples having children is harmful, that's why it won't ever be allowed.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:48 am

Tommy Monk wrote:It was decriminalised for reasons in paragraph A... if at the time, it was thought to have resulted in paragraph B being reality, as well as it being taught/promoted in schools to children, as being normal/natural and as equally legitimate as heterosexuality is normal/natural, then it would never have been decriminalised at all!!!

It was decriminalized in this country by the US Supreme Court, in a case known as Obergefell v. Hodges (2015).

1) http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/06/26/supreme_court_holds_same_sex_marriage_bans_are_unconstitutional.html
2) https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/06/26/417717613/supreme-court-rules-all-states-must-allow-same-sex-marriages

The Supreme Court held that there is no rational reason, or valid state purpose to prohibit same-sex marriage.  In other words, Butt out...it's none of your business.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:32 pm

Quill... all you have shown is the mission creep from original reasons for decriminalisation of homosexuality (my paragraph A), to situation now where all of paragraph B exists...


My point still stands, that had it been known years ago, when homosexuality was decriminalised due to arguments in paragraph A, that it would lead to situation of B, then it would never have been decriminalised at all...!


It was only intended to be decriminalised... not for it to ever be shoe-horned into/forced onto main stream society as being something that everyone else must recognise as being normal/natural/right/acceptable etc, and forced to think/behave/act like they believe it is... when in all reality, the vast majority don't believe that at all!!!


Decriminalisation is one thing... it is letting fukked up people do fukked up things, in private, between themselves, and therefore then only affecting themselves, while then being free from prosecution, was never decriminalised for it to be launched into mainstream society as something that everyone else should be forced to recognise as in any way normal/natural/right etc, or for everyone else to be forced to recognise as having the same status as what they fundamentally know IS normal/natural/right...!


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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:00 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:It was only intended to be decriminalised... not for it to ever be shoe-horned into/forced onto main stream society as being something that everyone else must recognise as being normal/natural/right/acceptable etc, and forced to think/behave/act like they believe it is... when in all reality, the vast majority don't believe that at all!!!

When homosexuality was criminalized, it was clearly wrong.  Period...end of.  That's an absolute.

Now, all I'm saying about this incest situation--which, I, as well as many others, find abhorrent--is that many of the same arguments are applicable here.  It's between two, consenting adults, and it's none of our business.

The only valid state interest is that the union might produce a child that is somehow disabled, mentally or physically.  But again, it's only potential: potential child, and a potential disability.  Why are we protecting an organism that does not yet exist, and may never exist?  Do we have the right to take from two valid, whole, extant human beings, on the possibility that an infant may be created, and it may be disabled?  Seems like punishment before the crime.

Incidentally, this (potential) child that the state would protect, what does he say?  As long as we are arguing for his protection, he might as well have a say in the matter.  Would he prefer death--or non-existence if you wish--over a chance at life, whatever the outcome, and the cost?

Or, perhaps we should ask Stephen Hawking, who can actually respond:

Hey Steve, would you prefer never having been born?  I mean look at you...you're a mess!! We're taking a poll, and if it turns out a certain way we are gonna end your chance at life.

It's a bit rude, no?  But that's where we are at when we presume to judge.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Tommy Monk on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:20 pm

Homosexuality... regardless of ever being criminalised or not, has always been known by the overwhelming vast majority of people everywhere and all time, to be unnatural/abnormal/wrong...!



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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:30 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Homosexuality... regardless of ever being criminalised or not, has always been known by the overwhelming vast majority of people everywhere and all time, to be unnatural/abnormal/wrong...!

Majority of people? You think it's a democratic choice? Suppose it were a guy with six fingers. Hey bud, we're having an election over whether you six-fingered guys get to live. Shame, tommy.

It's not an election. It's not a frivolous preference. It's up to you whether you want to be civil or not to six-fingered Jake...or his gay cousin. But to them, it's not a choice.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Syl on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:31 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:It was only intended to be decriminalised... not for it to ever be shoe-horned into/forced onto main stream society as being something that everyone else must recognise as being normal/natural/right/acceptable etc, and forced to think/behave/act like they believe it is... when in all reality, the vast majority don't believe that at all!!!

When homosexuality was criminalized, it was clearly wrong.  Period...end of.  That's an absolute.

Now, all I'm saying about this incest situation--which, I, as well as many others, find abhorrent--is that many of the same arguments are applicable here.  It's between two, consenting adults, and it's none of our business.

The only valid state interest is that the union might produce a child that is somehow disabled, mentally or physically.  But again, it's only potential: potential child, and a potential disability.  Why are we protecting an organism that does not yet exist, and may never exist?  Do we have the right to take from two valid, whole, extant human beings, on the possibility that an infant may be created, and it may be disabled?  Seems like punishment before the crime.

Incidentally, this (potential) child that the state would protect, what does he say?  As long as we are arguing for his protection, he might as well have a say in the matter.  Would he prefer death--or non-existence if you wish--over a chance at life, whatever the outcome, and the cost?

Or, perhaps we should ask Stephen Hawking, who can actually respond:

Hey Steve, would you prefer never having been born?  I mean look at you...you're a mess!!  We're taking a poll, and if it turns out a certain way we are gonna end your chance at life.

It's a bit rude, no?  But that's where we are at when we presume to judge.
Stephen Hawkins has motor neurone disease. No one know exactly how people contact it, but only a small % is thought to be hereditary.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:39 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

When homosexuality was criminalized, it was clearly wrong.  Period...end of.  That's an absolute.

Now, all I'm saying about this incest situation--which, I, as well as many others, find abhorrent--is that many of the same arguments are applicable here.  It's between two, consenting adults, and it's none of our business.

The only valid state interest is that the union might produce a child that is somehow disabled, mentally or physically.  But again, it's only potential: potential child, and a potential disability.  Why are we protecting an organism that does not yet exist, and may never exist?  Do we have the right to take from two valid, whole, extant human beings, on the possibility that an infant may be created, and it may be disabled?  Seems like punishment before the crime.

Incidentally, this (potential) child that the state would protect, what does he say?  As long as we are arguing for his protection, he might as well have a say in the matter.  Would he prefer death--or non-existence if you wish--over a chance at life, whatever the outcome, and the cost?

Or, perhaps we should ask Stephen Hawking, who can actually respond:



It's a bit rude, no?  But that's where we are at when we presume to judge.
Stephen Hawkins has motor neurone disease. No one know exactly how people contact it, but only a small % is thought to be hereditary.

But that's not the diacritical comparison. We're talking about a state interest in eliminating all people who are disabled.

If we take as the state interest (in outlawing incest), the possibility that a disabled child will result...shouldn't we ask the child if he wants to exist? Maybe he would prefer a disabled life, to death or no possibility of being born.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Syl on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:44 pm

You mentioned Stephen Hawkins, he wasnt born with an inherited disease, he wasnt diagnosed till he was an adult.
In fact most mnd sufferers are not diagnosed till they are 50 plus.

If you eliminate all people who may develop a desease throughout their lives.......not many would be left.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Syl on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:47 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Homosexuality... regardless of ever being criminalised or not, has always been known by the overwhelming vast majority of people everywhere and all time, to be unnatural/abnormal/wrong...!


Well it probably is unnatural to the majority because the majority of people are straight.

Just as straight sex would be unnatural to a gay person.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Eilzel on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:52 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill... all you have shown is the mission creep from original reasons for decriminalisation of homosexuality (my paragraph A), to situation now where all of paragraph B exists...


My point still stands, that had it been known years ago, when homosexuality was decriminalised due to arguments in paragraph A, that it would lead to situation of B, then it would never have been decriminalised at all...!


It was only intended to be decriminalised... not for it to ever be shoe-horned into/forced onto main stream society as being something that everyone else must recognise as being normal/natural/right/acceptable etc, and forced to think/behave/act like they believe it is... when in all reality, the vast majority don't believe that at all!!!


Decriminalisation is one thing... it is letting fukked up people do fukked up things, in private, between themselves, and therefore then only affecting themselves, while then being free from prosecution, was never decriminalised for it to be launched into mainstream society as something that everyone else should be forced to recognise as in any way normal/natural/right etc, or for everyone else to be forced to recognise as having the same status as what they fundamentally know IS normal/natural/right...!


You know, sometimes your posts almost allow you to get away with seeming like you really aren't a homophobic tool after all.

And then you post that last para, and remind us all exactly what you truly are... fukked up eh? In spite of being what you call 'fukked up', I seem to a lot less bitter and angry in life than you do Wink

And btw, what you refer to a mission creep (another BS term) is irrelevant in the discussion of what should and shouldn't be illegal. Criminalising incest is a waste of time and resources.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:55 pm

I see fuckwittery is creeping in from the resident idiots regarding normal/natural and abnormal/unnatural.

Near 100% of gay and hetrosexual couples kiss
The vast majority enage in oral sex
Around 30% of Homosexual male couples and hetrosexual couples engage in anal sex.

How are then homosexuals abnormal or unnatural, when hetrosexuals engage in the same sexual acts?

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:58 pm

Syl wrote:You mentioned Stephen Hawkins, he wasnt born with an inherited disease, he wasnt diagnosed till he was an adult.
In fact most mnd sufferers are not diagnosed till they are 50 plus.

If you eliminate all people who may develop a desease throughout their lives.......not many would be left.

I only mention Hawking because he's alive and can answer. We were talking about asking an hypothetical unborn, disabled child, and for some that's hard to envision. So I suggest we go to a live disabled person and ask him.

It has nothing to do with how they become disabled. It's just the question: would you prefer never having been born, over living life disabled?

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:00 am

Also it seems there is quite a few countries that do not criminlize incest.

In other words, having common sense in regards to consenting adults.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_incest

Also of note, a study by the Max Planck Institute found two to four percent of Germans have had incestuous relations.

Seems to be more common that uncommon happenning.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Syl on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:05 am

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:You mentioned Stephen Hawkins, he wasnt born with an inherited disease, he wasnt diagnosed till he was an adult.
In fact most mnd sufferers are not diagnosed till they are 50 plus.

If you eliminate all people who may develop a desease throughout their lives.......not many would be left.

I only mention Hawking because he's alive and can answer.  We were talking about asking an hypothetical unborn, disabled child, and for some that's hard to envision.  So I suggest we go to a live disabled person and ask him.

It has nothing to do with how they become disabled.  It's just the question: would you prefer never having been born, over living life disabled?

Im sure it would depend on the seriousness of the disability.

But rather than put the onus on the hypothetical unborn child...why not ask the hypothetical parents to be, why would you bring a child into the world knowing it will have a far higher percent of being born with a serious genetic illness, thanks to you breeding with your father/daughter/mother/brother.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Original Quill on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:13 am

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I only mention Hawking because he's alive and can answer.  We were talking about asking an hypothetical unborn, disabled child, and for some that's hard to envision.  So I suggest we go to a live disabled person and ask him.

It has nothing to do with how they become disabled.  It's just the question: would you prefer never having been born, over living life disabled?

Im sure it would depend on the seriousness of the disability.

Yes, that's true.  But with our hypothetical child, we don't even know if there would be a disability.  I was predicating the hypothetical on the worst-case scenario, since that extreme appears to be where the state interest lies.

Syl wrote:But rather than put the onus on the hypothetical unborn child...why not ask the hypothetical parents to be, why would you bring a child into the world knowing it will have a far higher percent of being born with a serious genetic illness, thanks to you breeding with your father/daughter/mother/brother.

Because the child has a different interest than the parents.  Remember?  That's the point.  The child has almost more of an interest than the parents...he should have an even greater say.  After all, he's going to have to actually live the life that state claims to be doing its best by.

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Syl on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:48 am

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

Im sure it would depend on the seriousness of the disability.

Yes, that's true.  But with our hypothetical child, we don't even know if there would be a disability.  I was predicating the hypothetical on the worst-case scenario, since that extreme appears to be where the state interest lies.

Syl wrote:But rather than put the onus on the hypothetical unborn child...why not ask the hypothetical parents to be, why would you bring a child into the world knowing it will have a far higher percent of being born with a serious genetic illness, thanks to you breeding with your father/daughter/mother/brother.

Because the child has a different interest than the parents.  Remember?  That's the point.  The child has almost more of an interest than the parents...he should have an even greater say.  After all, he's going to have to actually live the life that state claims to be doing its best by.
Quill, its late, you are making my brain ache.

All I know is, if a couple know that by mating, whether legally or illegally, and they know any child they may have together has a good chance of being born with a genetic disease, why would anyone want to wish that on baby when they could choose not to?

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:26 am

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Homosexuality... regardless of ever being criminalised or not, has always been known by the overwhelming vast majority of people everywhere and all time, to be unnatural/abnormal/wrong...!


Well it probably is unnatural to the majority because the majority of people are straight.

Just as straight sex would be unnatural to a gay person.


Regardless of which personal preference perspective was being advocated... although >99% would be advocating a PPP of heterosexual... <1% advocating a PPP of homosexual... NOBODY CAN HONESTLY CLAIM THAT HETEROSEXUAL COUPLING WAS NOT THE BIOLOGICALLY INTENDED NORMAL/NATURAL/RIGHT WAY OF THINGS BY THE PHYSICAL ANATOMICAL DESIGN/FUNCTION/PURPOSE OF THE REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM, HUMAN AS WELL AS EVERYWHERE ELSE!!!


NOT EVEN HOMOSEXUALS CAN DENY THIS OBVIOUS TRUTH!!!


THEY MAY PREFER SOMETHING ELSE... BUT THEY CAN'T DENY THE INTENDED MECHANICS OF THEIR OWN REPRODUCTIVE ORGANS... OR THE CORROBORATING EVIDENCE THROUGHOUT THE NATURAL WORLD!



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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:46 am

PMSL

Who is this designer?

Function?

Is the mouth's function to suck cock Tommy?

Why do many women, homosexual and bisexual men perform this ?

Why do as many hetrosexual women, as homosexual men, have anal sex?

By the same token, is the function of the penis meant to go in someones mouth?

Ot even their tongues in each others mouth?

If as you claim its unnatural by some warped view of design or function, then to you, just about every human is unnatural.

Hence the absurdity of your argument

It would cast just about everyone as abnormal and unnatural in their sexual acts.

Thus rendering your own argument moot to return criminalizing homosexuals

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Re: dad and daughter have baby, plan to marry, face multiple charges

Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:27 pm

What are you waffling on about...!?


Do you deliberately try to missunderstand/misrepresent the points I make...?



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