Sad sign of the times.

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Sad sign of the times.

Post by Angry Andy on Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:44 am

First topic message reminder :

Mrs AA and I were shopping in Boots the chemist. Passed 2 kids, lad and a girl, aged about 12, both tearing up, trying to decide which pregnancy testing kit to buy.

Hope for their futures it proves negative.

And hopefully he will put something on the end of it in future.


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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:36 pm

Didge wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Why did you bring up religion in the first place, and abuse me about it? You are definitely using it as a stick to beat me with. It's not fake offence - I've often said the same thing when others used religion against Vod as well.

I read your points and I don't agree with them. You can't bully people into agreeing with you.

Okay, when someone uses their beliefs to deligitimise and discriminate against groups of people.
Are you saying its wrong to challenge, be critical or even ridicule that belief?
Is that attacking the person or their beliefs?

I haven't done that though!

Are you going to join in with eddie and bleat on about religion in a thread which is nothing to do with religion.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:37 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Didge wrote:

Okay, when someone uses their beliefs to deligitimise and discriminate against groups of people.
Are you saying its wrong to challenge, be critical or even ridicule that belief?
Is that attacking the person or their beliefs?

I haven't done that though!

Are you going to join in with eddie and bleat on about religion in a thread which is nothing to do with religion.

I asked you some questions

Can you answer them or are you going to ignore them?

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:38 pm

Didge wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I haven't done that though!

Are you going to join in with eddie and bleat on about religion in a thread which is nothing to do with religion.

I ask you some questions

Can you answer them or are you going to ignore them?

I'm going to ignore them and throw your own words back at you.

Get back to the points

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by eddie on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:39 pm

Didge wrote:
eddie wrote:
Didge wrote:Eddie and Rags, you are better than this.

Get back to the points, as emotions are running high.

Its good you are both passionate here, but the emotions are clouding the points you are both trying to make.

I wouldn’t fall out with rags over a debate. I like her a lot and I also respect her too.
She’s just irritating me today and vice versa.  

I was conducting a social experiment by stepping in. To see the possible out comes, but meant what I said.

Thought it was relevant to the debate... Cool

Ah. I don’t see what the social experiment was. scratch

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:40 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Didge wrote:

I ask you some questions

Can you answer them or are you going to ignore them?

I'm going to ignore them and throw your own words back at you.

Get back to the points

I am on point and still conduction this social experiment about stepping in.

The point on offense and how people perceive themselves to be victim is also important here.

So clearly you do not want to answer.

Then why are you then claiming victim status.

Your beliefs could very well be paramount to your views here, the same as Eddie

Is it then attacking you or the beliefs you have?

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:42 pm

Didge wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I'm going to ignore them and throw your own words back at you.



I am on point and still conduction this social experiment about stepping in.

The point on offense and how people perceive themselves to be victim is also important here.

So clearly you do not want to answer.

Then why are you then claiming victim status.

Your beliefs could very well be paramount to your views here, the same as Eddie

Is it then attacking you or the beliefs you have?

Take it from me that they are not, and move on.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:43 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Didge wrote:

I am on point and still conduction this social experiment about stepping in.

The point on offense and how people perceive themselves to be victim is also important here.

So clearly you do not want to answer.

Then why are you then claiming victim status.

Your beliefs could very well be paramount to your views here, the same as Eddie

Is it then attacking you or the beliefs you have?

Take it from me that they are not, and move on.

But that is your perception, others may very well perceive differently.

You may not even see, nor Eddie that your beliefs do control your reasoning here and why emotions arise due to the passion we hold in certain beliefs

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Syl on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:44 pm

I don't think anyones religion has much to do with this thread.
The bottom line is some people would offer help and some people wouldn't.
Maybe offering help would be the wrong thing to do depending on the two who were picking a pregnancy kit, maybe offering help would have been welcomed.

I think maybe we would have all had to be in Andy's position at the time before we can say definitely what we would or would not do.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Syl on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:46 pm

Didge wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Take it from me that they are not, and move on.

But that is your perception, others may very well perceive differently.

You may not even see, nor Eddie that your beliefs do control your reasoning here and why emotions arise due to the passion we hold in certain beliefs

Why has the conversation moved from the kids in Boots to Rags 'beliefs'?

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:47 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

But that is your perception, others may very well perceive differently.

You may not even see, nor Eddie that your beliefs do control your reasoning here and why emotions arise due to the passion we hold in certain beliefs

Why has the conversation moved from the kids in Boots to Rags 'beliefs'?

Because eddie brought it up and Didge ran with it as usual. It's a complete joke. Did I sit here and say that it's against my religious belief to speak to two kids in Boots buying a pregnancy kit?

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:49 pm

Syl wrote:I don't think anyones religion has much to do with this thread.
The bottom line is some people would offer help and some people wouldn't.
Maybe offering help would be the wrong thing to do depending on the two who were picking a pregnancy kit, maybe offering help would have been welcomed.

I think maybe we would have all had to be in Andy's position at the time before we can say definitely what we would or would not do.

Actually religion often does play a major part. Our whole conceptual views for example in this country are born out of Christian-Judeo views. You may noty think so, but they inherantly have been over time and history

Eddie would want to help out here, but has no right to berate people if they do not. She can however berate people based on their "reasons" not to, when they openly express them.

Do you see the difference?

If religious beliefs play a factor in that, is it then wrong to question, if that is the case?

If people use the victim card any time someone challenges them on the possibility it is their beliefs that are the factor here. Then they will always feel themselves as victims. As they never conciously challenge themselves. What ever you feel on this, its due to beliefs that are held and based on the teachings of Jesus. The thing to do, would be to approach and help them here. Based on the stories of Jesus, that is what he would have done.

So is it then wrong to question, someone known to be Christian, based on this?

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:51 pm

Syl wrote:I don't think anyones religion has much to do with this thread.
The bottom line is some people would offer help and some people wouldn't.
Maybe offering help would be the wrong thing to do depending on the two who were picking a pregnancy kit, maybe offering help would have been welcomed.

I think maybe we would have all had to be in Andy's position at the time before we can say definitely what we would or would not do.

Of course religion has nothing to do with it.

I think also there's been an assumption that if people say they wouldn't speak to these kids, they must ignore every person who appears to be in trouble. Andy has been told he sounds "right wing" for merely saying that it's up to the parents to support them. All this labelling is stupid, and eddie is usually against that sort of thing.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Syl on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:51 pm

Didge wrote:
eddie wrote:

I wouldn’t fall out with rags over a debate. I like her a lot and I also respect her too.
She’s just irritating me today and vice versa.  

I was conducting a social experiment by stepping in. To see the possible out comes, but meant what I said.

Thought it was relevant to the debate... Cool

Your social experiment has shown that rather than Eddie and Rags being pissed off with each other, when you stepped in everyone was pissed off with everyone else.

A case of sometimes it IS better not to interfere. Razz

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:51 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

Why has the conversation moved from the kids in Boots to Rags 'beliefs'?

Because eddie brought it up and Didge ran with it as usual. It's a complete joke. Did I sit here and say that it's against my religious belief to speak to two kids in Boots buying a pregnancy kit?

It could be important to the debate as to why your views and reasons have formed here.

So how is it not relevant?

I mean come on Rags, you must agree, that Jesus, would have approached the young couple here to help.

Its a fundemental Christian belief.

So how is it wrong to bring this up, when it may or may not play a factor?

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Syl on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:53 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

Why has the conversation moved from the kids in Boots to Rags 'beliefs'?

Because eddie brought it up and Didge ran with it as usual. It's a complete joke. Did I sit here and say that it's against my religious belief to speak to two kids in Boots buying a pregnancy kit?

Your religion or Eddies job had nothing to do with the thread.
Had you both been able to argue it out without interference I bet it would have died a death by now.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:55 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Because eddie brought it up and Didge ran with it as usual. It's a complete joke. Did I sit here and say that it's against my religious belief to speak to two kids in Boots buying a pregnancy kit?

Your religion or Eddies job had nothing to do with the thread.
Had you both been able to argue it out without interference I bet it would have died a death by now.

Answer me this question Sly?

Is the views being expressed here by everyone, based on a belief they have on this?

If the answer is yes, of which it is, how then can you rule out the possibility, that its not down to a religious belief. That could be why someone holds a position here on this debate?

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by eddie on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:57 pm

My point was that it is a Christian value that we should help others - a value I happen to agree with. It was only a point I made and wasn’t actually intended to create a whole other debate.

I just find it so odd that most people who claim that they are religious don’t actually follow the teachings of Jesus. Or God. Or even any other spiritual being.

And for the record I totally support people’s rights to believe what they want but that doesn’t mean I can’t question their beliefs.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Syl on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:58 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:I don't think anyones religion has much to do with this thread.
The bottom line is some people would offer help and some people wouldn't.
Maybe offering help would be the wrong thing to do depending on the two who were picking a pregnancy kit, maybe offering help would have been welcomed.

I think maybe we would have all had to be in Andy's position at the time before we can say definitely what we would or would not do.

Actually religion often does play a major part. Our whole conceptual views for example in this country are born out of Christian-Judeo views. You may noty think so, but they inherantly have been over time and history

Eddie would want to help out here, but has no right to berate people if they do not. She can however berate people based on their "reasons" not to, when they openly express them.

Do you see the difference?

If religious beliefs play a factor in that, is it then wrong to question, if that is the case?

If people use the victim card any time someone challenges them on the possibility it is their beliefs that are the factor here. Then they will always feel themselves as victims. As they never conciously challenge themselves. What ever you feel on this, its due to beliefs that are held and based on the teachings of Jesus. The thing to do, would be to approach and help them here. Based on the stories of Jesus, that is what he would have done.

So is it then wrong to question, someone known to be Christian, based on this?

Religion plays no part. Just because someone would choose not to offer help in this situation doesn't make them bad...or wrong.
They obviously think its the right thing to do at the time...it has nothing to do with which God, if any, they pray too.

I'm not religious, my instinct would be to help....that doesn't make me better or worse than someone who wouldn't help.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:00 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Because eddie brought it up and Didge ran with it as usual. It's a complete joke. Did I sit here and say that it's against my religious belief to speak to two kids in Boots buying a pregnancy kit?

Your religion or Eddies job had nothing to do with the thread.
Had you both been able to argue it out without interference I bet it would have died a death by now.

I didn't mention eddie's job - she did!


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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Syl on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:02 pm

eddie wrote:My point was that it is a Christian value that we should help others - a value I happen to agree with. It was only a point I made and wasn’t actually intended to create a whole other debate.

I just find it so odd that most people who claim that they are religious don’t actually follow the teachings of Jesus. Or God. Or even any other spiritual being.

And for the record I totally support people’s rights to believe what they want but that doesn’t mean I can’t question their beliefs.

Their general beliefs are different to their religious beliefs though.
I think there is a tendency to use someone's religion against them on forums in general.
Unless a thread is about religion, I don't see the point.

Its a bit like someone using age, sexual orientation, obesity whatever against them...when its not really applicable to the debate.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:02 pm

eddie wrote:My point was that it is a Christian value that we should help others - a value I happen to agree with. It was only a point I made and wasn’t actually intended to create a whole other debate.

I just find it so odd that most people who claim that they are religious don’t actually follow the teachings of Jesus. Or God. Or even any other spiritual being.

And for the record I totally support people’s rights to believe what they want but that doesn’t mean I can’t question their beliefs.

Why don't you become a Christian then instead of sitting there saying that Christians aren't doing "their job"?

Not speaking to two kids in Boots doesn't mean that someone is not following the teachings of Jesus. Don't be so absurd. I don't know what's got into you today, but you're doing more that "irritating" me. You don't get to question my beliefs on an issue which is nothing to do with them.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:02 pm

eddie wrote:My point was that it is a Christian value that we should help others - a value I happen to agree with. It was only a point I made and wasn’t actually intended to create a whole other debate.

I just find it so odd that most people who claim that they are religious don’t actually follow the teachings of Jesus. Or God. Or even any other spiritual being.

And for the record I totally support people’s rights to believe what they want but that doesn’t mean I can’t question their beliefs.

Which is a valid point to ask.

Hence saying its wrong to bring up religion. Are ignoring the fact religious beliefs could play a part here.
That may not even be the case it is, but are you wrong to question someone who holds Christian beliefs. Knowing the stories of Jesus who seeked and looked to help everyone, by dying for their supposed sins. The Ultimate sacrifice?

No

Of course you have every right to question, why someone who follows the teachings of Jesus, would be arguing against helping, when it would conflate with the teachings of Jesus.

If the person takes offense from that, they clearly do not like how their beliefs can be challenged.

They are looking to make themselves a victim and not actually countering to say whether Jesus would or would not have helped here. That would have a counter argument, not invoke victim status

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:03 pm

This forum is getting more stupid by the day. I really don't know why I bother. Thanks for starting yet another crusade against Christians eddie.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Syl on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:05 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Syl wrote:

Your religion or Eddies job had nothing to do with the thread.
Had you both been able to argue it out without interference I bet it would have died a death by now.

I didn't mention eddie's job - she did!


In reply to you saying..."Maybe if you and others actually did a day's work".

I almost picked you up on that, but I'm retired so I cant. Razz

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:05 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

Actually religion often does play a major part. Our whole conceptual views for example in this country are born out of Christian-Judeo views. You may noty think so, but they inherantly have been over time and history

Eddie would want to help out here, but has no right to berate people if they do not. She can however berate people based on their "reasons" not to, when they openly express them.

Do you see the difference?

If religious beliefs play a factor in that, is it then wrong to question, if that is the case?

If people use the victim card any time someone challenges them on the possibility it is their beliefs that are the factor here. Then they will always feel themselves as victims. As they never conciously challenge themselves. What ever you feel on this, its due to beliefs that are held and based on the teachings of Jesus. The thing to do, would be to approach and help them here. Based on the stories of Jesus, that is what he would have done.

So is it then wrong to question, someone known to be Christian, based on this?

Religion plays no part. Just because someone would choose not to offer help in this situation doesn't make them bad...or wrong.
They obviously think its the right thing to do at the time...it has nothing to do with which God, if any, they pray too.

I'm not religious, my instinct would be to help....that doesn't make me better or worse than someone who wouldn't help.

Where did I ever claim someone was bad or wrong here?

Can you show me a post where I have?

The point is here, you are trying to censur and badly, the view that a person's religious belief could have played any factor here/

What you are doing is elevating religious beliefs above others and that they should have some form of protection.

Do you elevate for example the animal beliefs of Rags over her religious ones?

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:05 pm

Syl wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I didn't mention eddie's job - she did!


In reply to you saying..."Maybe if you and others actually did a day's work".

I almost picked you up on that, but I'm retired so I cant. Razz

That's not a reference to her job then is it? I didn't know she had a job.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:06 pm

Anyway, I don't think that picking on someone for the size of her shoulders is very nice - not fitting for someone with "people skills".

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:07 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:This forum is getting more stupid by the day. I really don't know why I bother. Thanks for starting yet another crusade against Christians eddie.

See, playing the victim card and never actually challenging back.

You take the copout option.

Not defend your position and beliefs, just make out you are a victim.

What crime has been done to you here?

None

Someone has simple challenged your beliefs.

Would you say the same, if someone challenged your animal rights beliefs?

Would you claim victim status or actually be practical and reason arguments in favour of your beliefs?

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:07 pm

Go and harass someone else Didge.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by eddie on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:08 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:This forum is getting more stupid by the day. I really don't know why I bother. Thanks for starting yet another crusade against Christians eddie.

You only ever behave like a petulant child when religion is discussed. I don’t know why that is, perhaps you do.

Topics often make one think of other things that relate to the topic and this is why most topics turn ino something else. I cannot help that my mind works a certain way and I often see beyond the trees and into the deepest part of the woods.

Sorry you feel so hurt by a discussion that mentions religion. I don’t know why that is.
Perhaps you do.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:09 pm

eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:This forum is getting more stupid by the day. I really don't know why I bother. Thanks for starting yet another crusade against Christians eddie.

You only ever behave like a petulant child when religion is discussed. I don’t know why that is, perhaps you do.

Topics often make one think of other things that relate to the topic and this is why most topics turn ino something else.  I cannot help that my mind works a certain way and I often see beyond the trees and into the deepest part of the woods.

Sorry you feel so hurt by a discussion that mentions religion. I don’t know why that is.
Perhaps you do.

You're the one behaving like a petulant child. You couldn't get me to agree with you, so you used religion to bait me in order to start an argument. You couldn't see beyond a twig.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Syl on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:10 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:

Your religion or Eddies job had nothing to do with the thread.
Had you both been able to argue it out without interference I bet it would have died a death by now.

Answer me this question Sly?

Is the views being expressed here by everyone, based on a belief they have on this?

If the answer is yes, of which it is, how then can you rule out the possibility, that its not down to a religious belief. That could be why someone holds a position here on this debate?

I am not religious, I obviously have views and beliefs that have nothing to do with religion.
So why do you think a person who is religious is any different?
Upbringing, lifestyle, personality. many things affect the way we all deal with various situations.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:11 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Go and harass someone else Didge.

So now any criticism, is to you, a form of harassment.

Do you have no selff belief, that you cannot challenge back, but constantly look to play the victim?

I really pity that in you, as I find you very intelligentg but when challenged, you always throw in the white towel and claim victim status. Its your weakness, which otherwise you are a wondwerful person.

Now again

See, playing the victim card and never actually challenging back.

You take the copout option.

Not defend your position and beliefs, just make out you are a victim.

What crime has been done to you here?

None

Someone has simple challenged your beliefs.

Would you say the same, if someone challenged your animal rights beliefs?

Would you claim victim status or actually be practical and reason arguments in favour of your beliefs?

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by eddie on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:12 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Anyway, I don't think that picking on someone for the size of her shoulders is very nice - not fitting for someone with "people skills".

Really? So I’m a bad person for mentioning someone’s shoulders? Hmmm. Really, rags?
If I had approached her and ridiculed her and hurt her feelings then you could question my people skills, absolutely.
But I didn’t.

Cheap shot. You’re better off speaking from the heart if you want to make a valid point.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:14 pm

eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Anyway, I don't think that picking on someone for the size of her shoulders is very nice - not fitting for someone with "people skills".

Really? So I’m a bad person for mentioning someone’s shoulders? Hmmm. Really, rags?
If I had approached her and ridiculed her and hurt her feelings then you could question my people skills, absolutely.
But I didn’t.

Cheap shot. You’re better off speaking from the heart if you want to make a valid point.

Well it doesn't really tie in with your claim that you have people skills does it? You want to talk about cheap shots? Take a look back at your post about religious faith directed at me. Now that was cheap.


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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:14 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

Answer me this question Sly?

Is the views being expressed here by everyone, based on a belief they have on this?

If the answer is yes, of which it is, how then can you rule out the possibility, that its not down to a religious belief. That could be why someone holds a position here on this debate?

I am not religious, I obviously have views and beliefs that have nothing to do with religion.
So why do you think a person who is religious is any different?
Upbringing, lifestyle, personality. many things affect the way we all deal with various situations.

Do you think your views have not been formed by Christian-Judaeo beliefs?
How about your views on sexual morality?
Murder?
Homosexuality?
Even as an athiest I can see how such beliefs have influenced moraility people form.
Hence why its completely important to factor in all beliefs.
This is not about what I think of people, but about how beliefs shape and form peoples views.
Religion can play a factor in that. All the things you stated could also be a factor, but you straight away discount the possibility of a religious factor

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by eddie on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:15 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:This forum is getting more stupid by the day. I really don't know why I bother. Thanks for starting yet another crusade against Christians eddie.

You only ever behave like a petulant child when religion is discussed. I don’t know why that is, perhaps you do.

Topics often make one think of other things that relate to the topic and this is why most topics turn ino something else.  I cannot help that my mind works a certain way and I often see beyond the trees and into the deepest part of the woods.

Sorry you feel so hurt by a discussion that mentions religion. I don’t know why that is.
Perhaps you do.

You're the one behaving like a petulant child. You couldn't get me to agree with you, so you used religion to bait me in order to start an argument. You couldn't see beyond a twig.

I don’t care if you agree with me! I never care if someone agrees with me on a debate forum. Are you kidding?

I think you seem unduly upset and considering you’ve ridiculed me and I don’t feel as upset as you, I can only assume I feel more secure with my beliefs than you do.

I’ll leave it there. I actually have no wish to upset you further. Truly.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:17 pm

eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You're the one behaving like a petulant child. You couldn't get me to agree with you, so you used religion to bait me in order to start an argument. You couldn't see beyond a twig.

I don’t care if you agree with me! I never care if someone agrees with me on a debate forum. Are you kidding?

I think you seem unduly upset and considering you’ve ridiculed me and I don’t feel as upset as you, I can only assume I feel more secure with my beliefs than you do.

I’ll leave it there. I actually have no wish to upset you further. Truly.  

Of course you'll leave it there - because I didn't pander to you and let you get away with your nasty little posts. People skills, my arse. I have more people skills than you, so you must have zero people skills.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Syl on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:20 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:

I am not religious, I obviously have views and beliefs that have nothing to do with religion.
So why do you think a person who is religious is any different?
Upbringing, lifestyle, personality. many things affect the way we all deal with various situations.

Do you think your views have not been formed by Christian-Judaeo beliefs?
How about your views on sexual morality?
Murder?
Homosexuality?
Even as an athiest I can see how such beliefs have influenced moraility people form.
Hence why its completely important to factor in all beliefs.
This is not about what I think of people, but about how beliefs shape and form peoples views.
Religion can play a factor in that. All the things you stated could also be a factor, but you straight away discount the possibility of a religious factor
Society and upbringing have formed my initial beliefs, my own judgment kicked in when I matured a bit.
Those factors influence everyone else too, be they religious or not.

Its as invalid in a thread like this  to harp on about someone's religion as it would be to harp on about their upbringing or the society they grew up in.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:21 pm

I will tell you why your argument is do poor here Syl

Many apologists claim religion plays no element in terrorism or the centuries that people have been oppressed and suffered from.

Yes it has been an element and is an element to why with have religious terrorism. There are other factors too, but religious beliefs, play a major factor in how they are taught. Espically when there is beliefs that are negative and hateful. Where people then hold such negative and hateful views. Where they are passionate about their beliefs negatively, it often leads to violence.

So to attempt to shield one belief element like religion, is shielding beliefs that within religion are often divisive and poor.

Here though, we see the beliefs around what Jesus did was good and rightly question a believer on that element.

Is it wrong to question why such a believer would actually be in conflict with their belief and its teachings?

If that is some how wrong, then you would have to think its wrong to question anyone on any particular belief they hold

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by eddie on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:23 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You're the one behaving like a petulant child. You couldn't get me to agree with you, so you used religion to bait me in order to start an argument. You couldn't see beyond a twig.

I don’t care if you agree with me! I never care if someone agrees with me on a debate forum. Are you kidding?

I think you seem unduly upset and considering you’ve ridiculed me and I don’t feel as upset as you, I can only assume I feel more secure with my beliefs than you do.

I’ll leave it there. I actually have no wish to upset you further. Truly.  

Of course you'll leave it there - because I didn't pander to you and let you get away with your nasty little posts. People skills, my arse. I have more people skills than you, so you must have zero people skills.


Do you want to continue then? Because I thought you said you felt as though you didn’t wish to discuss this anymore? Which is it? Or do you just want to have the last word?

Let me fucking know.  I was trying to be nice by shutting the hell up but don’t treat me like I’m some sort of an idiot.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:24 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

Do you think your views have not been formed by Christian-Judaeo beliefs?
How about your views on sexual morality?
Murder?
Homosexuality?
Even as an athiest I can see how such beliefs have influenced moraility people form.
Hence why its completely important to factor in all beliefs.
This is not about what I think of people, but about how beliefs shape and form peoples views.
Religion can play a factor in that. All the things you stated could also be a factor, but you straight away discount the possibility of a religious factor


Society and upbringing have formed my initial beliefs, my own judgment kicked in when I matured a bit.
Those factors influence everyone else too, be they religious or not.

Its as invalid in a thread like this  to harp on about someone's religion as it would be to harp on about their upbringing or the society they grew up in.

Its never invalid, because you claim so, again you are attempting to protect and shield certain beliefs. Which you would never do based around any non-religious belief.

That is a prime example, of how centuries of Christian-judeo beliefs are influencing you defending them, without even knowing you are. That for centuries, people in the west were taught not to challenge such beliefs. You even now defend that, even though you are not religious. That is centuries of control, religion has had on people

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:27 pm

eddie wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Of course you'll leave it there - because I didn't pander to you and let you get away with your nasty little posts. People skills, my arse. I have more people skills than you, so you must have zero people skills.


Do you want to continue then? Because I thought you said you felt as though you didn’t wish to discuss this anymore? Which is it? Or do you just want to have the last word?

Let me fucking know.  I was trying to be nice by shutting the hell up but don’t treat me like I’m some sort of an idiot.

There's not much to discuss is there? You seem to have gone wildly off topic, as has Didge.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:29 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:


Do you want to continue then? Because I thought you said you felt as though you didn’t wish to discuss this anymore? Which is it? Or do you just want to have the last word?

Let me fucking know.  I was trying to be nice by shutting the hell up but don’t treat me like I’m some sort of an idiot.

There's not much to discuss is there? You seem to have gone wildly off topic, as has Didge.

You see, again defensive

Why not actually defend your beliefs, reasoning them?

Why do people think religious beliefs should be given some form of protection?

I do not see people argue to defend any other forms of belief to be the same?

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Syl on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:30 pm

Didge wrote:
Syl wrote:


Society and upbringing have formed my initial beliefs, my own judgment kicked in when I matured a bit.
Those factors influence everyone else too, be they religious or not.

Its as invalid in a thread like this  to harp on about someone's religion as it would be to harp on about their upbringing or the society they grew up in.

Its never invalid, because you claim so, again you are attempting to protect and shield certain beliefs. Which you would never do based around any non-religious belief.

That is a prime example, of how centuries of Christian-judeo beliefs are influencing you defending them, without even knowing you are. That for centuries, people in the west were taught not to challenge such beliefs. You even now defend that, even though you are not religious. That is centuries of control, religion has had on people
By the same token its not valid just because YOU say it is.

My view is simple,,,I would not choose to  help a young couple in distress because of my lack of religious beliefs....and I suspect Rags or anyone else would choose not to help the same couple because of their religious beliefs.

I don't think religion plays a part really....social conscience may, being nosy, or avoiding public displays of emotion may, many things may...so why constantly hone in on religion?

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:34 pm

Syl wrote:
Didge wrote:

Its never invalid, because you claim so, again you are attempting to protect and shield certain beliefs. Which you would never do based around any non-religious belief.

That is a prime example, of how centuries of Christian-judeo beliefs are influencing you defending them, without even knowing you are. That for centuries, people in the west were taught not to challenge such beliefs. You even now defend that, even though you are not religious. That is centuries of control, religion has had on people
By the same token its not valid just because YOU say it is.

My view is simple,,,I would not choose to  help a young couple in distress because of my lack of religious beliefs....and I suspect Rags or anyone else would choose not to help the same couple on her religious beliefs.

I don't think religion plays a par reallyt....social conscience may, being nosy, or avoiding public displays of emotion may, many things may...so why consyantly hone in on religion?


I never claimed my view was valid, did I?
What I stated, is that everything is up for dicussion and that I am stating, no form of belief should be off the table to discuss.

Then you fail to see the point. You do not follow the teachings of Jesus on helping people. Rags does. He paind the ultimate sacrifice for everyone. His own death. He would help anyone and nobody would expect you to do that based on you not following his beliefs.

You would expect this of a Christian, because Jesus would help.

So why is it wrong to question that?

There is nothing wrong or is there anything wrong in pointing how people often tend to be hypocritical in what they believe. As we see here.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Syl on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:34 pm

Anyway......if the couple needed the pregnancy testing kit for themselves, I hope for their sake its negative.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by eddie on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:53 pm

Syl wrote:Anyway......if the couple needed the pregnancy testing kit for themselves, I hope for their sake its negative.

And perhaps, if someone stepped in at the height of their distress and fear and gave them some sound advice, they wouldn’t ever find themsleves buying another one.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Raggamuffin on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:54 pm

eddie wrote:
Syl wrote:Anyway......if the couple needed the pregnancy testing kit for themselves, I hope for their sake its negative.

And perhaps, if someone stepped in at the height of their distress and fear and gave them some sound advice, they wouldn’t ever find themsleves buying another one.

I should think they can decide that for themselves.

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Re: Sad sign of the times.

Post by Didge on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:56 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
eddie wrote:

And perhaps, if someone stepped in at the height of their distress and fear and gave them some sound advice, they wouldn’t ever find themsleves buying another one.

I should think they can decide that for themselves.


So you are against the nation placing an age limit on responsibility?

You want to banish all laws that safeguard children?

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