Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

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Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:05 pm

Doesn't sound as cool as "We're #1", but I guess we can adapt. Cool

Is America the world's freest country? Sadly, no.

When researchers first started doing detailed international comparisons, the USA came in second or third. This year, however, we ranked 17th.

The comparison I cite is the newly released Human Freedom Index, compiled by the Fraser and Cato Institutes. They compared economic freedoms such as freedom to trade, amount of regulations and tax levels, plus personal freedoms such as women's rights and religious freedom.




Their new report concludes that the world's freest countries are now:

1. Switzerland.
2. Hong Kong.
3. New Zealand.
4. Ireland.
5. Australia.

"The United States used to have one of the freest economies in the world," Index co-author Ian Vasquez says. "It used to be a two, three or four, and then government started to grow [and] spend more."

Republicans and Democrats, under Presidents Bush and Obama, voted for increases in spending and regulation. Obama tried to make tax increases sound harmless. "Those who are more fortunate are going to have to pay a little bit more."

The result was that we fell farther from the top of the freedom ranking. Switzerland now takes first place. It has comparatively little regulation, low taxes, a free press and personal freedoms such as same-sex marriage.

A good ranking matters, not just because freedom itself is a good thing, but because economic freedom allows people to prosper.

Consider the story of Hong Kong, No. 2 on the overall freedom list (but No. 1 in economic freedom). In just 50 years, people in Hong Kong went from being among the poorest in the world to among the richest.

Prosperity happened because Hong Kong's government puts few obstacles in the way of trying new things. It took me just a few hours to get legal permission to open a business in Hong Kong. In New York, it took months. In India, I didn't even try—it would have taken years.

That's a reason India stays poor. Bureaucrats have the power to review and reject most any new idea. Fewer new ideas get tried.

The absolute worst places to live are countries that lack both economic and personal freedom.

Those are the places at the bottom of the freedom ranking:

155. Egypt.
156. Yemen.
157. Libya.
158. Venezuela.
159. Syria.

(Totalitarian North Korea wasn't ranked because the researchers couldn't get accurate information.)


http://reason.com/archives/2018/01/31/sadly-americas-not-the-freest-country-in


No doubt some Americans (maybe even some here) will cheer for our loss of freedoms, because after all, freedom can be scary. silent

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:08 pm

No word on what rank the Mandingo's have. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Original Quill on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:25 pm

Maddog wrote:No word on what rank the Mandingo's have.  Rolling Eyes

They come from the upper Niger valley, so that would be 129 of 159.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:42 pm

The Analysis doesn't make sense

NZ and Australia both have higher taxes and government spending than the USA
that's what gives us our freedom is the knowledge that if we have any health issues we can just walk in and that our kids will get a decent education, that we have rights as consumers that we can't be tricked out of with terms and conditions etc.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:24 am

veya_victaous wrote:The Analysis doesn't make sense

NZ and Australia both have higher taxes and government spending than the USA
that's what gives us our freedom is the knowledge that if we have any health issues we can just walk in and that our kids will get a decent education, that we have rights as consumers that we can't be tricked out of with terms and conditions etc.

You have far less regulations.

Read it again.

You may not know as much about your country and my country as you think you do. Never to late to learn something. Smile

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:09 am

we have more powerful regulations though. (higher minimums, in-voidable rights etc)
and I am pretty sure we have more too, I think the difference is ours are national so there is no variation between states.

Also the report has a pretty weak methodology it says growth equals economic freedom but again growth in NZ and Australia is due to lifestyle, which comes back to our good public services

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by nicko on Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:18 am

Growth in NZ and Australia is due to the amount of hardworking Brits that have settled there ! Laughing
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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Ben Mothafuckin' Reilly on Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:10 am

All right, Maddog, I'd love for our country to be a hell of a lot more like Switzerland.

If you would too, we can be best male friends. (Already got me a best female friend, and she's always gonna come first -- no offense dude).

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:25 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:All right, Maddog, I'd love for our country to be a hell of a lot more like Switzerland.

If you would too, we can be best male friends. (Already got me a best female friend, and she's always gonna come first -- no offense dude).

I think most people like Switzerland. The problem is they don't understand what makes Switzerland, Switzerland.

Every time I mention less government and regulation people bristle. It won't work that way.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:26 pm

veya_victaous wrote:we have more powerful regulations though. (higher minimums, in-voidable rights etc)
and I am pretty sure we have more too, I think the difference is ours are national so there is no variation between states.

Also the report has a pretty weak methodology it says growth equals economic freedom but again growth in NZ and Australia is due to lifestyle, which comes back to our good public services
Yeah.

You don't want to get it.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Ben Mothafuckin' Reilly on Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:58 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:All right, Maddog, I'd love for our country to be a hell of a lot more like Switzerland.

If you would too, we can be best male friends. (Already got me a best female friend, and she's always gonna come first -- no offense dude).

I think most people like Switzerland. The problem is they don't understand what makes Switzerland, Switzerland.  

Every time I mention less government and regulation people bristle.  It won't work that way.  

Their health care system is Obamacare on steroids, and their gun ownership is severely regulated. Military service is compulsory. And do they still require everyone to vote in each election? Not sure, but I don't think Switzerland fits your weird definition of freedom as well as you think it does.

I'm all for getting rid of unnecessary regulations that make it harder to start and operate a business. In some of the countries I admire the most, such as Sweden, it's much easier to start a business than it is in the U.S. But dude, Switzerland has a lot more government intervention in the market than we do.

Our problem really is that our government is hijacked by capitalists who use it to enrich themselves.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:43 am

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:we have more powerful regulations though. (higher minimums, in-voidable rights etc)
and I am pretty sure we have more too, I think the difference is ours are national so there is no variation between states.

Also the report has a pretty weak methodology it says growth equals economic freedom but again growth in NZ and Australia is due to lifestyle, which comes back to our good public services
Yeah.  

You don't want to get it.  

Arrow

You're the one who "doesn't want to get it",  Dopeydog...

All of those five countries have higher (overall) levels of taxation, compared to the USA; though Ireland has lower corporate/business taxes; and Hong Kong makes up for lower income tax rates with increased "indirect taxes"..

Switzerland is one of the most expensive countries to live in;  while Honkers is one of the most expensive cities for real estate, and therefore rents..

All five of those topping the list have better publicly-funded welfare systems, healthcare, and public education systems, compared with the USA.

Switzerland still has compulsory military service; and it also has one of the most heavily subsidised/highly regulated agricultural sectors on the planet (not just in Europe).

Switzerland is one of the least multicultural countries;  and one of the "whitest" in Europe..

Switzerland also acted as "the Third Reich's Banker" during WWII...

They do make good cheese, chocolates and watches, though..

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:08 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:
Yeah.  

You don't want to get it.  

Arrow

You're the one who "doesn't want to get it",  Dopeydog...

All of those five countries have higher (overall) levels of taxation, compared to the USA; though Ireland has lower corporate/business taxes; and Hong Kong makes up for lower income tax rates with increased "indirect taxes"..

Switzerland is one of the most expensive countries to live in;  while Honkers is one of the most expensive cities for real estate, and therefore rents..

All five of those topping the list have better publicly-funded welfare systems, healthcare, and public education systems, compared with the USA.

Switzerland still has compulsory military service; and it also has one of the most heavily subsidised/highly regulated agricultural sectors on the planet (not just in Europe).

Switzerland is one of the least multicultural countries;  and one of the "whitest" in Europe..

Switzerland also acted as "the Third Reich's Banker" during WWII...

They do make good cheese, chocolates and watches, though..

And the US used to be in the top 5. Explain it's slide to 17. Wink

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:09 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I think most people like Switzerland. The problem is they don't understand what makes Switzerland, Switzerland.  

Every time I mention less government and regulation people bristle.  It won't work that way.  

Their health care system is Obamacare on steroids, and their gun ownership is severely regulated. Military service is compulsory. And do they still require everyone to vote in each election? Not sure, but I don't think Switzerland fits your weird definition of freedom as well as you think it does.

I'm all for getting rid of unnecessary regulations that make it harder to start and operate a business. In some of the countries I admire the most, such as Sweden, it's much easier to start a business than it is in the U.S. But dude, Switzerland has a lot more government intervention in the market than we do.

Our problem really is that our government is hijacked by capitalists who use it to enrich themselves.

So that's why we have slipped to #17?

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:20 pm

off course that's why you have slipped.
the USA's size and historic post WW2 advantage in infrastructure is not enough to keep up with nations reaping he benefits of Superior Public services and well regulated markets.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:05 pm

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Arrow

You're the one who "doesn't want to get it",  Dopeydog...

All of those five countries have higher (overall) levels of taxation, compared to the USA; though Ireland has lower corporate/business taxes; and Hong Kong makes up for lower income tax rates with increased "indirect taxes"..

Switzerland is one of the most expensive countries to live in;  while Honkers is one of the most expensive cities for real estate, and therefore rents..

All five of those topping the list have better publicly-funded welfare systems, healthcare, and public education systems, compared with the USA.

Switzerland still has compulsory military service; and it also has one of the most heavily subsidised/highly regulated agricultural sectors on the planet (not just in Europe).

Switzerland is one of the least multicultural countries;  and one of the "whitest" in Europe..

Switzerland also acted as "the Third Reich's Banker" during WWII...

They do make good cheese, chocolates and watches, though..

And the US used to be in the top 5. Explain it's slide to 17.    Wink

Arrow

Basically, it's because you have let "big business" and its financiers fuck you over, big time...

Since the 1950s, as a country you have achieved --

More workplace "casualisation", lower job security, stagnating wages, a depressed minimum wage,  reduced unionisation of workforces; along with decreasing overall domestic workplace "productivity" (largely due to big businesses "off-shoring" jobs into Mexico, Brazil and Asia..).

Lowered welfare, health and education services on one side;  allied to rising health costs, reduced water and food security, and increasing pollution on the other;  again due to big business lobbying for lower taxes and reduced regulations.

Stagnant wages in many sectors at the same time that directors and shareholders have taken ever-increasing profits and bonuses;  booming real estate prices in some areas and price crashes in "rust belt" areas of high unemployment;  ever increasing health, food and energy costs  --  this ever increasing social disparity and civil unrest and economic inequality  has to make things that much worse for your country, in the long run.

For the past half-century, most of the wars that the USA (and Russia, Germany, France and Britain..) have been involved in have been to make arms manufacturers, oil and mining companies richer --  and rarely for purposes of genuine "national defence"..

And all the while, you keep on getting that far right wing economic blather that "taxes are theft;  labour unions and universal health cover are 'communistic';  "free markets" can deliver better 'services';  the unemployed, disabled and old are parasites on the system;  etc.  etc.  etc.".

These days, corporate influence is way out of proportion to their actual real world contributions in terms of jobs, economic well being, national advancement..

When in doubt, "Follow the money trail !"



Last edited by WhoseYourWolfie on Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:11 pm

In short

'you have given the Rich the freedom to enslave the poor'

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Ben Mothafuckin' Reilly on Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:23 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I think most people like Switzerland. The problem is they don't understand what makes Switzerland, Switzerland.  

Every time I mention less government and regulation people bristle.  It won't work that way.  

Their health care system is Obamacare on steroids, and their gun ownership is severely regulated. Military service is compulsory. And do they still require everyone to vote in each election? Not sure, but I don't think Switzerland fits your weird definition of freedom as well as you think it does.

I'm all for getting rid of unnecessary regulations that make it harder to start and operate a business. In some of the countries I admire the most, such as Sweden, it's much easier to start a business than it is in the U.S. But dude, Switzerland has a lot more government intervention in the market than we do.

Our problem really is that our government is hijacked by capitalists who use it to enrich themselves.

So that's why we have slipped to #17?

Yes. Also, Swiss taxes are higher than ours, and they have a much better social safety net than we do. Your definition of freedom is flawed.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:07 pm

Our slip has only occurred during the past 15 years or so. Still haven't seen any explain that.

I don't expect to either. Wink

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:46 pm

Maddog wrote:Our slip has only occurred during the past 15 years or so.  Still haven't seen any explain that.  

I don't expect to either.  Wink

Yes I Did

After WW2 the USA had Industrial Infrastructure decades ahead of everyone else (except Russia).
By the 90's other people started to catch up and in the 2000's people started to surpass the USA.
that having become a corpocracy has failed to invest in much new infrastructure.
Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:47 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:Our slip has only occurred during the past 15 years or so.  Still haven't seen any explain that.  

I don't expect to either.  Wink

Yes I Did

After WW2 the USA had Industrial Infrastructure decades ahead of everyone else (except Russia).
By the 90's other people started to catch up and in the 2000's people started to surpass the USA.
that having become a corpocracy has failed to invest in much new infrastructure.
Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

That's your explanation? Rolling Eyes

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:02 pm

https://youtu.be/FK0AaDN_owI

Just in case some folks are interested in learning something.

I'm not holding my breath.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:11 pm

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:Our slip has only occurred during the past 15 years or so.  Still haven't seen any explain that.  

I don't expect to either.  Wink

Yes I Did

After WW2 the USA had Industrial Infrastructure decades ahead of everyone else (except Russia).
By the 90's other people started to catch up and in the 2000's people started to surpass the USA.
that having become a corpocracy has failed to invest in much new infrastructure.
Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

That's your explanation?  Rolling Eyes

Yes the USA was higher in the past due to not being Bombed in WW2, which is what happened to the European Industrial Infrastructure.

As other nations came closer to a level playing field they have caught up to and passed the USA.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Didge on Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:12 am

“If you’re not outraged,” the saying goes, “you’re not paying attention.” This trite maxim seems to have become a chief metric for measuring America’s democratic bona fides, and it’s leading to some ludicrous conclusions.

Every year, the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU) performs what we can only hope is an exhaustive review of the political conditions on every nation on Earth to produce its vaunted “Democracy Index.” The results of their 2017 survey are disheartening. As COMMENTARY’s Sohrab Ahmari chronicled, the rise of illiberal movements around the world has tracked with a crisis of confidence in the Western model of democratic capitalism, and that trend has not reversed itself. The EIU’s study found a precipitous decline in the number of people living in what it determined to be fully functioning democracies. Most of that decline is, however, attributable to the downgraded status of the United States. That’s right; America is no longer the beacon of democracy it once was.


America’s diminished status isn’t new. The EIU’s 2016 study, released in early 2017, demoted the U.S. from “full” to “flawed” democracy—a condition they define as still having free elections but lacking a functional government, a robust political culture, protections for civil liberties, and high levels of public participation in the civic process. According to the EIU, America’s infirmities did not improve last year. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the authors attribute the country’s ills to the rise of nihilistic populism, a symptom of which was Donald Trump’s presidency. “The popular reaction to an economic and political system which many voters feel has left them behind is presented as the cause of democracy’s ailments rather than a consequence of them,” this year’s study read.


America joins the ranks of “flawed” democracies, like South Korea, Japan, France, Israel, Taiwan, and Estonia. That doesn’t sound too bad. Among the “full” democracies that the United States trails are countries like Australia, Spain, and Uruguay—advanced nations, for sure, but which adhere to their own unique definitions of liberty and republicanism Americans would find alien.


This week, the Australian Broadcasting Company published a select sample from a cache of confidential cabinet-level documents, which it received after someone purchased an unopened filing system from a used goods store in Canberra. That has jumpstarted a debate over legislation that would essentially make ABC’s reporting a criminal offense. The country already has among the world’s most draconian anti-whistleblower laws in the developed world, but which its government defends as necessary for a nation plagued by terrorism. Spain has spent the last year doing its best to preserve its territorial integrity, going so far as to take control of the formerly autonomous government in the would-be breakaway province of Catalonia. Uruguay’s relatively stable and progressive politics render it the model South American nation for Europeans, and the country has made enormous strides since it emerged from military dictatorship in 1985. But the archives from this period remain mostly closed to the public, the reconciliation process has all but halted, and the country’s Supreme Court has reinstated a law granting amnesty to members of the military.


All of these material considerations seem to take a backseat to quantifiable metrics, including polls showing declining faith in institutions, new legislative initiatives, and participation in politics. That’s a problem. The collapse of institutional power, both public and private, is not a new phenomenon (and few have chronicled it in as compelling a fashion as BuzzFeed’s Katherine Miller). But, counterintuitive as it may be, that suboptimal reality is as attributable to the proliferation of new democratizing conventions as anything else. New phenomena like social media render organic and hierarchical mediating institutions (like the church, neighborhood, and industry) and their custodians obsolete. Lethargic central government is a feature of American democracy, not a mark of its decline—and certainly not a function of gerrymandering, to which the EIU attributes this phenomenon. When a party ideologically opposed to activist government controls many if not most of the levers of power, an inactive government is often the result. Finally and most critically, the idea that public participation in civic exercises is a mark of democratic health is a staggeringly shallow observation.


Civic participation in the form of attending protests, demonstrations, or even voting can an expression of faith in the political system, but so, too, can non-participation. The freedom to tune out of the political process is a privilege. “Full democracies” like Uruguay and Australia, for example, are two of 22 nations where voting is compulsory. They join with states like Turkey, Egypt, and the Democratic Republic of Congo in compelling their citizens to take part in the process. Even in immature republics and nations transitioning toward democracy, non-participation in political affairs is frowned upon; the stakes are simply too high. Feelings of powerlessness, dispossession, or a general antipathy toward the political system can create downward pressure on participation rates, as can simple laziness, but that is a cost/benefit calculation made by individuals. The ability to make that calculation is the mark of a free society. Non-participation in a mature democracy can also represent a vote of confidence in the stability and continuity of a political system and its core civic consensus, even if issues at the margins fuel the kind of passion and anxiety that shows up in public polling.
Surely, American civic culture has seen better days. The United States is not immune to the forces that have compelled the tide of democracy to recede. The appeal of anti-republican forms of political expression is finding a receptive audience in a generation that has never known a world in which Western democratic capitalism had a strong peer competitor. Moreover, with regard to the United States, some of the trends this year’s EIU study identified merit real concern.


But America’s democratic beacon does not radiate from the White House. The United States does not derive its authority as a model republic from the political culture in Washington D.C., or from fluctuating voter participation rates, or even from public trust in institutions. America’s model republicanism is a product of conventions that are remarkably resistant to radical change. The endurance of those precepts represented in the Constitution and practiced in thousands of cities, towns, and counties across the country even when a norm-bending figure like Trump is in the White House is cause for hope, not despair.


The Economist Intelligence Unit is open about its antipathy toward popular expressions of no confidence in the governing classes like Trump’s election and the Brexit referendum, but that is clouding its ability to gauge what constitutes a healthy republic.





https://www.commentarymagazine.com/politics-ideas/democracy-metrics-curve-eiu/

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:55 am

Among the “full” democracies that the United States trails are countries like Australia, Spain, and Uruguay—advanced nations, for sure, but which adhere to their own unique definitions of liberty and republicanism Americans would find alien.

exactly
In Australia at least 'the Common Good' is still held to be a reasonable cause for policy. we do not subscribe to the Idea that Personal Liberty is more important than Broader Societies well being.

and as I have said before Compulsory voting is one of the main factors for stability and encouraging reasonable centrist policy

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:59 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Among the “full” democracies that the United States trails are countries like Australia, Spain, and Uruguay—advanced nations, for sure, but which adhere to their own unique definitions of liberty and republicanism Americans would find alien.

exactly
In Australia at least 'the Common Good' is still held to be a reasonable cause for policy. we do not subscribe to the Idea that Personal Liberty is more important than Broader Societies well being.

and as I have said before Compulsory voting is one of the main factors for stability and encouraging reasonable centrist policy

Compulsory voting is just more force. Can you vote "none of the above" in Australia?

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Original Quill on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:02 am

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:

exactly
In Australia at least 'the Common Good' is still held to be a reasonable cause for policy. we do not subscribe to the Idea that Personal Liberty is more important than Broader Societies well being.

and as I have said before Compulsory voting is one of the main factors for stability and encouraging reasonable centrist policy

Compulsory voting is just more force. Can you vote "none of the above" in Australia?

You can write in your own name. That way, you're not giving anything away. Like a good libertarian, writing in your own name means you will go it alone.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:05 am

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Compulsory voting is just more force. Can you vote "none of the above" in Australia?

You can write in your own name.  That way, you're not giving anything away.  Like a good libertarian, writing in your own name means you will go it alone.

Ok. I'm cool with compulsory voting as long as you are not forced to pick one of the candidates. I guess you can let your kid fill it out with crayons, sign your name and mail it off.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:27 am

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Among the “full” democracies that the United States trails are countries like Australia, Spain, and Uruguay—advanced nations, for sure, but which adhere to their own unique definitions of liberty and republicanism Americans would find alien.

exactly
In Australia at least 'the Common Good' is still held to be a reasonable cause for policy. we do not subscribe to the Idea that Personal Liberty is more important than Broader Societies well being.

and as I have said before Compulsory voting is one of the main factors for stability and encouraging reasonable centrist policy

Compulsory voting is just more force. Can you vote "none of the above" in Australia?

yep, but it's a bit pointless
In practice it just means you have to show up and get given the voting slip, you can literally leave it blank and stick it straight in the collection box if you want.

there is several Minor parties that probably suit a niche you support.
And since the Major Parties have to Appeal to the Majority and not the Rusted on Supporters they need policies that are more suitable for everybody. if someone's campaign is too extreme either Left or Right they will be avoided by the majority in the middle

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:52 am

G'Day

I reckon this mob would be a natural fit for Dopeydog's libertarian leanings  :

http://www.ldp.org.au/

Senator David Leyonhjelm spouts much the same drivel as Maddog does..

https://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Parliamentarian?MPID=111206

(There you go, your Madness --  now you can't say I've never done anything for you !   tongue  ).

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:16 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:G'Day

I reckon this mob would be a natural fit for Dopeydog's libertarian leanings  :

http://www.ldp.org.au/

Senator David Leyonhjelm spouts much the same drivel as Maddog does..

https://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Parliamentarian?MPID=111206

(There you go, your Madness --  now you can't say I've never done anything for you !   tongue  ).

I've heard if him. I doubt you would like a man that expects a grown ass man to take care of himself and his offspring.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:18 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Compulsory voting is just more force. Can you vote "none of the above" in Australia?

yep, but it's a bit pointless
In practice it just means you have to show up and get given the voting slip, you can literally leave it blank and stick it straight in the collection box if you want.

there is several Minor parties that probably suit a niche you support.
And since the Major Parties have to Appeal to the Majority and not the Rusted on Supporters they need policies that are more suitable for everybody. if someone's campaign is too extreme either Left or Right they will be avoided by the majority in the middle

Ok. While I hate the idea of being forced to show up anywhere, I'm cool with being able to leave it all blank when you vote.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:29 am

Maddog wrote:https://youtu.be/FK0AaDN_owI

Just in case some folks are interested in learning something.

I'm not holding my breath.

Arrow

Interesting to note that the narator says that "personal, civil and economic" measures of freedom for each country were used to compile their index...

Yet when the various self-declared American "professors", presumed "experts" and obvious corporate shills commentate on this topic, they seem to fixate on their so-called "economic freedoms"..

Maybe this is yet another warning sign -- that American corporatists' obsession with the almighty dollar, to the exclusion of everyhting else -- just look to all of the civil unrest and ingrained inequalities over there these days.

Why are those American corporate shills and think tank lobbyists so scared of addressing such issues as differences in welfare, healthcare, personal liberties, public education, unionised workplaces -- those things that conservative/"free market" American business interests continually try to label as "communist", satanic and "un-American" inventions..

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:32 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:https://youtu.be/FK0AaDN_owI

Just in case some folks are interested in learning something.

I'm not holding my breath.

Arrow

Interesting to note that the narator says that  "personal, civil and economic" measures of freedom for each country were used to compile their index...

Yet when the various self-declared American "professors", presumed "experts" and obvious corporate shills commentate on this topic, they seem to fixate on their so-called "economic freedoms"..

Maybe this is yet another warning sign --  that American corporatists' obsession with the almighty dollar, to the exclusion of everyhting else  --  just look to all of the civil unrest and ingrained inequalities over there these days.

Why are those American corporate shills and think tank lobbyists so scared of addressing such issues as differences in welfare, healthcare, personal liberties, public education, unionised workplaces --  those things that conservative/"free market" American business interests continually try to label as "communist", satanic and "un-American" inventions..


Hmmmmmm

So why is the US #17.

You should be on "dancing with the stars".

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:33 am

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Compulsory voting is just more force. Can you vote "none of the above" in Australia?

yep, but it's a bit pointless
In practice it just means you have to show up and get given the voting slip, you can literally leave it blank and stick it straight in the collection box if you want.

there is several Minor parties that probably suit a niche you support.
And since the Major Parties have to Appeal to the Majority and not the Rusted on Supporters they need policies that are more suitable for everybody. if someone's campaign is too extreme either Left or Right they will be avoided by the majority in the middle

Ok. While I hate the idea of being forced to show up anywhere, I'm cool with being able to leave it all blank when you vote.  

If you don't show up
How are you going to get a sausage sizzle and cupcake? Suspect Suspect


More often than not Voting Places are School halls and the schools or a local charity will make it into a bit of a fete day.
You lose your citizenship if you don't buy at least a Sausage sizzle, It's the (Unofficial)Law Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:36 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:https://youtu.be/FK0AaDN_owI

Just in case some folks are interested in learning something.

I'm not holding my breath.

Arrow

Interesting to note that the narator says that  "personal, civil and economic" measures of freedom for each country were used to compile their index...

Yet when the various self-declared American "professors", presumed "experts" and obvious corporate shills commentate on this topic, they seem to fixate on their so-called "economic freedoms"..

Maybe this is yet another warning sign --  that American corporatists' obsession with the almighty dollar, to the exclusion of everyhting else  --  just look to all of the civil unrest and ingrained inequalities over there these days.

Why are those American corporate shills and think tank lobbyists so scared of addressing such issues as differences in welfare, healthcare, personal liberties, public education, unionised workplaces --  those things that conservative/"free market" American business interests continually try to label as "communist", satanic and "un-American" inventions..


Hmmmmmm

So why is the US #17.

You should be on "dancing with the stars".  

I don't understand why you're asking why the USA is 17th? :confused

cause it's not as good as Oz and NZ but better than many others. Cool

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:37 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:G'Day

I reckon this mob would be a natural fit for Dopeydog's libertarian leanings  :

http://www.ldp.org.au/

Senator David Leyonhjelm spouts much the same drivel as Maddog does..

https://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Parliamentarian?MPID=111206

(There you go, your Madness --  now you can't say I've never done anything for you !   tongue  ).

I've heard if him. I doubt you would like a man that expects a grown ass man to take care of himself and his offspring.  

Rolling Eyes

What I don't like about him is some of the other things that he is vehemently opposed to :

Welfare, in general;
Government funding for healthcare assistance for disabled, poor; unemployed;
A minimum wage;
Public education (never mind that he himself got a "free" uni' education down here in the 1970s..);
Environmental protections;
Workplace health and safety regulations;
'Fair trade' conditions..


Oh, and last year he stated publicly that the chief and core responsibility of government should be "the protection of private property,"  and not the welfare and safety of its citizens  !

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:44 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Arrow

Interesting to note that the narator says that  "personal, civil and economic" measures of freedom for each country were used to compile their index...

Yet when the various self-declared American "professors", presumed "experts" and obvious corporate shills commentate on this topic, they seem to fixate on their so-called "economic freedoms"..

Maybe this is yet another warning sign --  that American corporatists' obsession with the almighty dollar, to the exclusion of everyhting else  --  just look to all of the civil unrest and ingrained inequalities over there these days.

Why are those American corporate shills and think tank lobbyists so scared of addressing such issues as differences in welfare, healthcare, personal liberties, public education, unionised workplaces --  those things that conservative/"free market" American business interests continually try to label as "communist", satanic and "un-American" inventions..

Hmmmmmm

So why is the US #17.

You should be on "dancing with the stars".  

Razz

Can't you handle the truth, Maddog ???

Between veya, Ben and myself, we have given you more than a dozen contributing causes to your wordly decline since World War II..

Just be thankful that you're not Russia, Egypt or Venezuela !

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:45 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:G'Day

I reckon this mob would be a natural fit for Dopeydog's libertarian leanings  :

http://www.ldp.org.au/

Senator David Leyonhjelm spouts much the same drivel as Maddog does..

https://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Parliamentarian?MPID=111206

(There you go, your Madness --  now you can't say I've never done anything for you !   tongue  ).

I've heard if him. I doubt you would like a man that expects a grown ass man to take care of himself and his offspring.  

Rolling Eyes

What I don't like about him is some of the other things that he is vehemently opposed to :

Welfare, in general;
Government funding for healthcare assistance for disabled, poor; unemployed;
A minimum wage;
Public education (never mind that he himself got a "free" uni' education down here in the 1970s..);
Environmental protections;
Workplace health and safety regulations;
'Fair trade' conditions..


Oh,  and last year he stated publicly that the chief and core responsibility of government should be "the protection of private property,"  and not the welfare and safety of its citizens  !

which is the sort of idiocy that causes nations to go down to number 17 Wink

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:47 am

veya_victaous wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Rolling Eyes

What I don't like about him is some of the other things that he is vehemently opposed to :

Welfare, in general;
Government funding for healthcare assistance for disabled, poor; unemployed;
A minimum wage;
Public education (never mind that he himself got a "free" uni' education down here in the 1970s..);
Environmental protections;
Workplace health and safety regulations;
'Fair trade' conditions..


Oh,  and last year he stated publicly that the chief and core responsibility of government should be "the protection of private property,"  and not the welfare and safety of its citizens  !

which is the sort of idiocy that causes nations to go down to number 17 Wink

If that were the case we would never have dropped. You don't know much about my country do you? Smile

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:02 am

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Rolling Eyes

What I don't like about him is some of the other things that he is vehemently opposed to :

Welfare, in general;
Government funding for healthcare assistance for disabled, poor; unemployed;
A minimum wage;
Public education (never mind that he himself got a "free" uni' education down here in the 1970s..);
Environmental protections;
Workplace health and safety regulations;
'Fair trade' conditions..


Oh,  and last year he stated publicly that the chief and core responsibility of government should be "the protection of private property,"  and not the welfare and safety of its citizens  !

which is the sort of idiocy that causes nations to go down to number 17 Wink

If that were the case we would never have dropped.  You don't know much about my country do you?  Smile

Comparative to ours it's true 
but we are 5th after all G'Day
Remember we are one of the nations that has surpassed the US Wink

it's not just you going down, it's going down in comparison to other nations which are rising.
the movement is not due to US policy alone, it is also due to changes in other nations own policies 
Places like Australia and NZ have struck a better balance between market forces and gov't services.
Also subsidization, a prime example is that hair drying thread, here education is regulated and subsidized by the gov't/taxpayer.
So the average person has greater freedom because qualifications are attainable at an affordable price.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:17 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

If that were the case we would never have dropped.  You don't know much about my country do you?  Smile

Comparative to ours it's true 
but we are 5th after all G'Day
Remember we are one of the nations that has surpassed the US Wink

it's not just you going down, it's going down in comparison to other nations which are rising.
the movement is not due to US policy alone, it is also due to changes in other nations own policies 
Places like Australia and NZ have struck a better balance between market forces and gov't services.
Also subsidization, a prime example is that hair drying thread, here education is regulated and subsidized by the gov't/taxpayer.
So the average person has greater freedom because qualifications are attainable at an affordable price.

Gotcha. These other countries used to no be as free, but in recent years became more free?

That's what this study has led you to believe?

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:44 pm

in some of the cases (Switzerland is pretty consistent)
It's definitely NOT the tax thing it suggest since We have Higher taxes and MORE regulation and MORE gov't spending.
there is nothing that Supports the Analysis, and multiple factors that completely contradict it.

In Fact they Premise is not even true
https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index
Go to the actual institute that created the report, USA was 20th in 2015

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:58 pm

veya_victaous wrote:in some of the cases (Switzerland is pretty consistent)  
It's definitely NOT the tax thing it suggest since We have Higher taxes and MORE regulation and MORE gov't spending.
there is nothing that Supports the Analysis, and multiple factors that completely contradict it.

In Fact they Premise is not even true
https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index
Go to the actual institute that created the report, USA was 20th in 2015

OK. We went from 3 to 20 in about 15 years and have rebounded to 17 during the past two. I can see that, because Trump has done away with a few regulations. I don't think the recent tax cut would have made a difference. Maybe next year we will be #15?

Shall I throw a party?


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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:29 am

The HFI is the most comprehensive freedom index so far created for a globally meaningful set of countries. The HFI covers 159 countries for 2015, the most recent year for which sufficient data are available. The index ranks countries beginning in 2008, the earliest year for which a robust enough index could be produced.

you seems to mixing up Indexes... the one in the OP has only been around for 3 years (but had some off historical data from 2008)

the USA has never been top 5 either
17th in 2017
23rd in 2016
20th in 2015

https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:12 am

veya_victaous wrote:
The HFI is the most comprehensive freedom index so far created for a globally meaningful set of countries. The HFI covers 159 countries for 2015, the most recent year for which sufficient data are available. The index ranks countries beginning in 2008, the earliest year for which a robust enough index could be produced.

you seems to mixing up Indexes...  the one in the OP has only been around for 3 years (but had some off historical data from 2008)

the USA has never been top 5 either
17th in 2017
23rd in 2016
20th in 2015

https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index


When researchers first started doing detailed international comparisons, the USA came in second or third. This year, however, we ranked 17th.

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by veya_victaous on Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:04 am

I know that's what the poor analysis you posted says but That is NOT what the report says or the reports creators say.

I cite is the newly released Human Freedom Index, compiled by the Fraser and Cato Institutes.

which is here
https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index
and doesn't say what he says,
I literally copy and pasted the quote that says since 2015 from the reports site Wink

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:28 am

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:in some of the cases (Switzerland is pretty consistent)  
It's definitely NOT the tax thing it suggest since We have Higher taxes and MORE regulation and MORE gov't spending.
there is nothing that Supports the Analysis, and multiple factors that completely contradict it.

In Fact they Premise is not even true
https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index
Go to the actual institute that created the report, USA was 20th in 2015

OK. We  went from 3 to 20 in about 15 years and have rebounded to 17 during the past two. I can see that, because Trump has done away with a few regulations. I don't think the recent tax cut would have made a difference. Maybe next year we will be #15?

Shall I throw a party?  

 


You're kidding yourself if you honestly believe that the USA was #3 fifteen years ago...

More like 60 years ago..

tongue

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by Maddog on Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:38 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

OK. We  went from 3 to 20 in about 15 years and have rebounded to 17 during the past two. I can see that, because Trump has done away with a few regulations. I don't think the recent tax cut would have made a difference. Maybe next year we will be #15?

Shall I throw a party?  

 


You're kidding yourself if you honestly believe that the USA was #3 fifteen years ago...

More like 60 years ago..

tongue

I didn't write the article princess. Wink

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:17 am

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:


You're kidding yourself if you honestly believe that the USA was #3 fifteen years ago...

More like 60 years ago..

tongue

I didn't write the article princess.  Wink

clown

I reckon the real "princess" here is the clown who actually wrote that article...

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Re: Woohoo!!! We're #17, We're #17, We're #17

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