Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

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Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Guest on Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:13 am

A fair scoring of the Trump presidency’s first year would have to hand 2017 to Democrats. The opposition party  exploited the Trump-led GOP’s mistakes and excesses and translated them into victories both on Capitol Hill and at polling places around the country. But that was then and this is now. Democrats remain married to tactics that have not served them so well in the New Year. Democrats are not winning this moment. They don’t know it yet.

Not even the most optimistic Republican could have anticipated the reaction that markets and large employers have had to the first significant overhaul of the tax code in over 30 years. Since that bill was signed into law on December 19, firm after firm has announced its intention to share the windfall with its employees in the form of raises, bonuses, and 401(k) hikes. Manufacturers ranging from Chrysler to Apple are repatriating capital and factories they had parked overseas. Even the minimum wage is on the rise for several major employers, including Walmart and financial institutions like Wells Fargo, U.S. Bank, and Bank of New York Mellon Corp.


Democrats had argued that the Republican tax code reform plan would benefit only the wealthy and, despite the strong economy and tight labor market, corporations were unlikely to reinvest their new capital. The Democratic message has not adapted along with changing conditions. They feel obliged to undermine the good news surrounding tax code reform, but they’ve gone about it in a spectacularly tone-deaf fashion.


House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said the $1,000 bonuses that a variety of firms had provided their employees in the wake of tax code reform amount to “crumbs” and “pathetic” gifts designed to purchase cheap loyalty. Rather than invest in their employees, she added, these firms should “invest in infrastructure.” Pelosi later called these bonuses and wage hikes “cute,” but ultimately insulting to the American worker because they are not commensurate with the advantage corporate tax reform provides employers. “Some of them are getting raises, and the rest are getting crumbs,” Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer agreed. When “you spread $1,000 over the course of the year,” former Democratic National Committee Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz pondered, “I’m not sure that $1,000 (which is taxed, taxable) goes very for almost anyone.”


If the Democratic Party is trying to convince voters that the GOP is detached from the concerns of average Americans, demonstrating you have no idea how far $1,000 goes is a bad way to go about it. For a family making the median household income (as of September of last year), $1,000 is more than 20 percent of their monthly income.


Democrats might hope to trade on lingering antipathy toward the tax bill they successfully fomented in the run-up to its passage, but the narrative that worked in December is going to start yielding diminishing returns. The headlines speak for themselves; even just the anticipatory effects of this tax bill are not being enjoyed exclusively by the wealthy. The longer Democrats ask voters to believe them over their lying eyes, the more they will find that they are only preaching to the converted.


Similarly, the GOP has boxed the Democratic Party in on the issue of immigration reform.
On Thursday night, the White House revealed the outlines of what amounts to a skinny immigration reform package. The one-page memo outlined a plan to provide a pathway to citizenship not just for the roughly 700,000 beneficiaries of the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, which expires in March, but some 1.8 million DACA-eligible immigrants—approximately half the estimated population of immigrants who were taken into the U.S. as minors. In exchange, the White House requested $25 billion for security at both the Mexican and Canadian borders. Furthermore, the White House requested curbs on family migration, limiting the extended family that these formerly illegal immigrants could bring with them into the U.S.


This is a reasonable initial offer. The administration, having just secured an unambiguous victory over Democrats following a failed legislative gambit that resulted in a brief government shutdown, could have pressed their luck. Instead, the White House barely budged off its initial request for border security funding. Meanwhile, the administration made a big step toward resolving the status of nearly two million illegal immigrants, which has enraged some in the president’s immigration-hawk base. In fact, the White House reportedly had a difficult time trying to sell immigration restrictionists on the plan. “Lots of them hate the proposal,” Axios reporter Jonathan Swan related. Mark Krikorian, the executive director for the Center for Immigration Studies, summed up his fellow hawks’ thoughts succinctly: “Time to start burning your #MAGA hats.”


But for all the administration’s overtures toward Democrats, the responses have been hyperbolic and inflexible. Senator Dick Durbin said Trump had taken DREAMers “hostage” and was on a “crusade to tear families apart.” “The White House is using Dreamers to mask their underlying xenophobic, isolationist, and un-American policies,” wrote Democratic Rep. Michelle Lujan Grisham. Pelosi called Trump’s proposed restrictions on extended family unification represent “an unmistakable campaign to make America white again,” which aligned with sentiments in the liberal grassroots. A statement by the activist organization United We Dream called Trump’s immigration proposal “a white supremacist ransom note.”


This means Democrats are again handing the keys over to the party’s activist base just days after the party’s activists drove them into a ditch. Democrats spent months insisting that they wanted a “clean” bill to restore long-term funding for the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP). When they got it, [url=https://www.commentarymagazine.com/politics-ideas/democrats-are-being-outmaneuvered/Children%E2%80%99s Health Insurance Program (CHIP)]they voted against it[/url]—sacrificing their claims on CHIP in the process. Now, the White House has made a good faith attempt to find common ground on DACA, only to be called racist for the effort. This is a remarkably short-sighted and parochial strategy.


By insisting that $1,000 constitute “crumbs” and giving citizenship to nearly 2 million illegal residents is racist, Democrats are flirting with utter incoherence. These claims might enliven their base, but they risk turning off every other sentient voter capable of an objective thought. Moreover, unreasonable polemics have a habit of activating the opposing side’s partisans at a time when reliable Republican voters have been staying away from the polls. The risks of the Democratic Party’s present course seem to outweigh the rewards.





https://www.commentarymagazine.com/politics-ideas/democrats-are-being-outmaneuvered/

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Maddog on Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:44 pm

It's interesting. Trump has some fairly strong negatives. But a lot of folks are getting cash bonuses thanks to the tax cuts. Just about every hourly employee is getting a raise in the next few weeks as the IRS will be withholding less from their checks. Will voters reward congressional republicans and ignore the antics and nonsense coming from Trump?

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:50 pm

Why is this thread in the 'UK & Irish - politics' section?

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:59 pm

Maddog wrote:It's interesting.  Trump has some fairly strong negatives.  But a lot of folks are getting cash bonuses thanks to the tax cuts.  Just about every hourly employee is getting a raise in the next few weeks as the IRS will be withholding less from their checks.  Will voters reward congressional republicans and ignore the antics and nonsense coming from Trump?

We call those teasers. Scraps tossed to the 'common folk' for appeasement. Notice it's in the form of "bonuses"? That's because it's only temporary.

It's chump change compared to the $50-billion to $200-billion that will be handed to each American oligarch.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Maddog on Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:26 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:It's interesting.  Trump has some fairly strong negatives.  But a lot of folks are getting cash bonuses thanks to the tax cuts.  Just about every hourly employee is getting a raise in the next few weeks as the IRS will be withholding less from their checks.  Will voters reward congressional republicans and ignore the antics and nonsense coming from Trump?

We call those teasers.  Scraps tossed to the 'common folk' for appeasement.  Notice it's in the form of "bonuses"?  That's because it's only temporary.

It's chump change compared to the $50-billion to $200-billion that will be handed to each American oligarch.

The tax cuts are not teasers. Your typical wager earner is going to have less money withheld from their check.

And who in the fuck is "we" again?

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by veya_victaous on Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:54 pm

Original Quill wrote:Why is this thread in the 'UK & Irish - politics' section?

dunno but fixed it Wink

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:28 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

We call those teasers.  Scraps tossed to the 'common folk' for appeasement.  Notice it's in the form of "bonuses"?  That's because it's only temporary.

It's chump change compared to the $50-billion to $200-billion that will be handed to each American oligarch.

The tax cuts are not teasers. Your typical wager earner is going to have less money withheld from their check.

And who in the fuck is "we" again?  

The "we" is most newscasters and experts. Pay attention. "Teasers" are like carrots dangled before a donkey to get him to go along with something he ought not want to do.

Teasers are a motivator. They create what lecturers in MBA programs call urgency. You see it everyday on TV: Act now...sale ends on Friday! Get your new car before they're all gone!! Look over here; don't look over there!

Teasers in the form of minimal tax cuts are intended to deflect and delay criticism through 'stocking gifts', so to speak, while the oligarchs receive the big gifts. The teaser tax cuts only last 4-6 years...hopefully until the real damage is forgotten or elected officials are out of office. The tax cuts for the oligarchs, through corporations, last forever.

The big corporate tax cuts will not stimulate employment. They can't. Employment is being lost, not to Mexico or Malaysia, but to technology. Automatic and computer machine tooling is replacing workmen on the assembly line. Tax cuts for the rich may help corporations buy more tooling, but it'll never trickle down in the form of employment.

Workers need to be reeducated and investment needs to go to new energy industries. But what is Trump doing? Cutting the Department of Education and investing in coal mining. Republicans are betting they'll be out of office, in cushy lobbying jobs, by the time the public catches onto them.

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If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by eddie on Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:31 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Original Quill wrote:Why is this thread in the 'UK & Irish - politics' section?

dunno but fixed it Wink

Finally doing some work then? Razz

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:32 pm

eddie wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:

dunno but fixed it Wink

Finally doing some work then? Razz

Gd. job, veya, eds.  Thx!  Razz

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If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Maddog on Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:54 am

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The tax cuts are not teasers. Your typical wager earner is going to have less money withheld from their check.

And who in the fuck is "we" again?  

The "we" is most newscasters and experts.  Pay attention.  "Teasers" are like carrots dangled before a donkey to get him to go along with something he ought not want to do.

Teasers are a motivator.  They create what lecturers in MBA programs call urgency.  You see it everyday on TV: Act now...sale ends on Friday!  Get your new car before they're all gone!!  Look over here; don't look over there!

Teasers in the form of minimal tax cuts are intended to deflect and delay criticism through 'stocking gifts', so to speak, while the oligarchs receive the big gifts.  The teaser tax cuts only last 4-6 years...hopefully until the real damage is forgotten or elected officials are out of office.  The tax cuts for the oligarchs, through corporations, last forever.

The big corporate tax cuts will not stimulate employment.  They can't.  Employment is being lost, not to Mexico or Malaysia, but to technology.  Automatic and computer machine tooling is replacing workmen on the assembly line.  Tax cuts for the rich may help corporations buy more tooling, but it'll never trickle down in the form of employment.

Workers need to be reeducated and investment needs to go to new energy industries.  But what is Trump doing?  Cutting the Department of Education and investing in coal mining.  Republicans are betting they'll be out of office, in cushy lobbying jobs, by the time the public catches onto them.


Your typical wager earner is going to have less money withheld from their check

Damn you're a dense fuck. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Cass on Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:53 am

Yay I got an extra $10.25. Go me!

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:20 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

The "we" is most newscasters and experts.  Pay attention.  "Teasers" are like carrots dangled before a donkey to get him to go along with something he ought not want to do.

Teasers are a motivator.  They create what lecturers in MBA programs call urgency.  You see it everyday on TV: Act now...sale ends on Friday!  Get your new car before they're all gone!!  Look over here; don't look over there!

Teasers in the form of minimal tax cuts are intended to deflect and delay criticism through 'stocking gifts', so to speak, while the oligarchs receive the big gifts.  The teaser tax cuts only last 4-6 years...hopefully until the real damage is forgotten or elected officials are out of office.  The tax cuts for the oligarchs, through corporations, last forever.

The big corporate tax cuts will not stimulate employment.  They can't.  Employment is being lost, not to Mexico or Malaysia, but to technology.  Automatic and computer machine tooling is replacing workmen on the assembly line.  Tax cuts for the rich may help corporations buy more tooling, but it'll never trickle down in the form of employment.

Workers need to be reeducated and investment needs to go to new energy industries.  But what is Trump doing?  Cutting the Department of Education and investing in coal mining.  Republicans are betting they'll be out of office, in cushy lobbying jobs, by the time the public catches onto them.


Your typical wager earner is going to have less money withheld from their check

Damn you're a dense fuck. Rolling Eyes

And you're a dumb fuck, Redneck. You're one of the trailer-park lowlifes that will take the chump change and think he's getting a good deal. It's spineless daffodils like you that have ruined this country.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:31 am

Arrow

Average wage earners might be $5 to $10 better off each week for a short while...

However,  health insurance is going up, energy and water will be up, food will be up..

In a few months time, that average wage earner is no better off;      while the low income earners, the unemployed and many 'retirees' are worse off from day one, as they have no extra to offset those ever-rising costs.

And then in two years time, the guvm'nt has to daise more taxation elsewhere, to offset big tax cuts to corporations and wealthy individuals --  so in another 2 or 3 years, the majority of Americans will be even worse off than they are now..

And Maddog approves  ???

"Bread and circuses"

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Maddog on Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:31 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:Arrow

Average wage earners might be $5 to $10 better off each week for a short while...

However,  health insurance is going up, energy and water will be up, food will be up..

In a few months time, that average wage earner is no better off;      while the low income earners, the unemployed and many 'retirees' are worse off from day one, as they have no extra to offset those ever-rising costs.

And then in two years time, the guvm'nt has to daise more taxation elsewhere, to offset big tax cuts to corporations and wealthy individuals --  so in another 2 or 3 years, the majority of Americans will be even worse off than they are now..

And Maddog approves  ???

"Bread and circuses"

5-10 bucks a week? You need a some better sources. Wink

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Maddog on Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:33 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:


Your typical wager earner is going to have less money withheld from their check

Damn you're a dense fuck. Rolling Eyes

And you're a dumb fuck, Redneck.  You're one of the trailer-park lowlifes that will take the chump change and think he's getting a good deal.  It's spineless daffodils like you that have ruined this country.

I wont be getting anything.

BTW, Ben knows where I live. No trailers around here princess. Wink

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:44 pm

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:Arrow

Average wage earners might be $5 to $10 better off each week for a short while...

However,  health insurance is going up, energy and water will be up, food will be up..

In a few months time, that average wage earner is no better off;      while the low income earners, the unemployed and many 'retirees' are worse off from day one, as they have no extra to offset those ever-rising costs.

And then in two years time, the guvm'nt has to daise more taxation elsewhere, to offset big tax cuts to corporations and wealthy individuals --  so in another 2 or 3 years, the majority of Americans will be even worse off than they are now..

And Maddog approves  ???

"Bread and circuses"

5-10 bucks a week?  You need a some better sources.  Wink

Suspect

And maybe you're hanging around with too many well-paid people...

Lost contact with the average and lower-paid workers over there, have you ???

And isn't it also true that Trump is trying to force health insurance costs way, way up..

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:32 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:Arrow

Average wage earners might be $5 to $10 better off each week for a short while...

However,  health insurance is going up, energy and water will be up, food will be up..

In a few months time, that average wage earner is no better off;      while the low income earners, the unemployed and many 'retirees' are worse off from day one, as they have no extra to offset those ever-rising costs.

And then in two years time, the guvm'nt has to daise more taxation elsewhere, to offset big tax cuts to corporations and wealthy individuals --  so in another 2 or 3 years, the majority of Americans will be even worse off than they are now..

And Maddog approves  ???

"Bread and circuses"

What's even more important, the tax cuts for individuals will expire in 2025.  The corporate tax cuts for the rich go on in perpetuity. Republicans are not shouting that to the public, are they?  The personal tax cuts are subject to what conservative commentator George F. Will calls, phantom expiration:

SLC Tribune wrote:The legislation says the tax reductions for individuals will expire by 2025. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, however, says “we have every expectation that down the road Congress will extend them.” Of course Congress will. The phantom expiration is an $800 billion fudge, a cooking of the books in order to cram the tax bill into conformity with arcane parliamentary procedures that make the measure immune to filibuster. We have been down this road before: For the same reason, some George W. Bush tax cuts of 2001 were scheduled to expire at the end of 2010; 82 percent of them (measured by revenue) did not.

Who builds in phantom expiration dates?  Why?  I'll tell you why.  The tax cuts for the rich are too expensive and irresponsible.  They are destined to leave the country with a $1.5 - $2-trillion deficit.  Republicans need to squeeze the little guy in order to pay for the transfer of wealth to the rich.

Bur first, such a blatant coddling of the rich is bound to arouse anger.  So, Republicans devised these 'teaser' short-term, tiny tax cuts for the poor and middle class, hoping the general public is too stupid to spot the take-back down the road.

Besides, Republicans calculate they'll be gone by then and Democrats will have to clean up the mess...as they always do.  Remember the brink of depression in October, 2008?  Remember the Iraq war?  Remember, the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, the result of Republican deregulation?

Republicans represent special interests; only Democrats represent the general interest.

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Maddog on Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:07 pm

Original Quill wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:Arrow

Average wage earners might be $5 to $10 better off each week for a short while...

However,  health insurance is going up, energy and water will be up, food will be up..

In a few months time, that average wage earner is no better off;      while the low income earners, the unemployed and many 'retirees' are worse off from day one, as they have no extra to offset those ever-rising costs.

And then in two years time, the guvm'nt has to daise more taxation elsewhere, to offset big tax cuts to corporations and wealthy individuals --  so in another 2 or 3 years, the majority of Americans will be even worse off than they are now..

And Maddog approves  ???

"Bread and circuses"

What's even more important, the tax cuts for individuals will expire in 2025.  The corporate tax cuts for the rich go on in perpetuity.  Republicans are not shouting that to the public, are they?  The personal tax cuts are subject to what conservative commentator George F. Will calls, phantom expiration:

SLC Tribune wrote:The legislation says the tax reductions for individuals will expire by 2025. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, however, says “we have every expectation that down the road Congress will extend them.” Of course Congress will. The phantom expiration is an $800 billion fudge, a cooking of the books in order to cram the tax bill into conformity with arcane parliamentary procedures that make the measure immune to filibuster. We have been down this road before: For the same reason, some George W. Bush tax cuts of 2001 were scheduled to expire at the end of 2010; 82 percent of them (measured by revenue) did not.

Who builds in phantom expiration dates?  Why?  I'll tell you why.  The tax cuts for the rich are too expensive and irresponsible.  They are destined to leave the country with a $1.5 - $2-trillion deficit.  Republicans need to squeeze the little guy in order to pay for the transfer of wealth to the rich.

Bur first, such a blatant coddling of the rich is bound to arouse anger.  So, Republicans devised these 'teaser' short-term, tiny tax cuts for the poor and middle class, hoping the general public is too stupid to spot the take-back down the road.

Besides, Republicans calculate they'll be gone by then and Democrats will have to clean up the mess...as they always do.  Remember the brink of depression in October, 2008?  Remember the Iraq war?  Remember, the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, the result of Republican deregulation?

Republicans represent special interests; only Democrats represent the general interest.

There will be several elections between now and 2025.

It's good for they typical worker to bring home an extra hundred bucks a month. Only an asshole would begrudge a hard working person that extra income.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:24 pm

Maddog wrote:There will be several elections between now and 2025.

It's good for they typical worker to bring home an extra hundred bucks a month. Only an asshole would begrudge a hard working person that extra income.

Stop acting like a dupe, Red. You're being had, and I've just explained the details.

Are you sure you are not a Trumpster? They are the only ones who can have pointed out to them that they are chumps, and they still like it.


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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Cass on Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:46 pm

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:Arrow

Average wage earners might be $5 to $10 better off each week for a short while...

However,  health insurance is going up, energy and water will be up, food will be up..

In a few months time, that average wage earner is no better off;      while the low income earners, the unemployed and many 'retirees' are worse off from day one, as they have no extra to offset those ever-rising costs.

And then in two years time, the guvm'nt has to daise more taxation elsewhere, to offset big tax cuts to corporations and wealthy individuals --  so in another 2 or 3 years, the majority of Americans will be even worse off than they are now..

And Maddog approves  ???

"Bread and circuses"

5-10 bucks a week?  You need a some better sources.  Wink

I’m a good source. I just said I got about $10 a week more, so about $21 per pat period. BUT we had to start paying $25 a pay period for healthcare whereas it was free for employees before (you had to pay for spouse or children). I got a 50 cent an hour pay raise as well so no, I’m not better off and I’m in a middle class educated profession. And gas gas gone up 20 cents a gallon in a month.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:05 pm

Cass wrote:
Maddog wrote:

5-10 bucks a week?  You need a some better sources.  Wink

I’m a good source. I just said I got about $10 a week more, so about $21 per pat period. BUT we had to start paying $25 a pay period for healthcare whereas it was free for employees before (you had to pay for spouse or children). I got a 50 cent an hour pay raise as well so no, I’m not better off and I’m in a middle class educated profession. And gas gas gone up 20 cents a gallon in a month.

Xactly what is happening to most Americans.

Maddog wrote:...to bring home an extra hundred bucks a month.

A hundred a month? The average paycheck bump for the worker due to the tax adjustment is $5 - $15 per period.

It takes a pretty stupid person not to see it's an tranquilization...and not a very good one at that.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Maddog on Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:41 pm

Cass wrote:
Maddog wrote:

5-10 bucks a week?  You need a some better sources.  Wink

I’m a good source. I just said I got about $10 a week more, so about $21 per pat period. BUT we had to start paying $25 a pay period for healthcare whereas it was free for employees before (you had to pay for spouse or children). I got a 50 cent an hour pay raise as well so no, I’m not better off and I’m in a middle class educated profession. And gas gas gone up 20 cents a gallon in a month.

So you would have been better off without the tax cut, because everything else you mentioned was going to happen anyway?

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:08 am

The country would have been better off without the tax cut, as it would not have incurred the $1.5 - $2-trillion deficit just to give rich guys more of the nation's wealth.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:58 am

Maddog wrote:
Cass wrote:

I’m a good source. I just said I got about $10 a week more, so about $21 per pat period. BUT we had to start paying $25 a pay period for healthcare whereas it was free for employees before (you had to pay for spouse or children). I got a 50 cent an hour pay raise as well so no, I’m not better off and I’m in a middle class educated profession. And gas gas gone up 20 cents a gallon in a month.

So you would have been better off without the tax cut, because everything else you mentioned was going to happen anyway?

Arrow

Everything's interrelated, Dopeydog...

The rising healthcare costs are pure profit for the insurers -- the US gov't stands alone in allowing the American health insurers to pocket 50% of every dollar they take, compared with maybe q0% in most other Western economies..

Plus, indirect taxes have to keep on rising to pay the interest on Trump's increased borrowings tl finance his corporate tax cuts.

Yet more of Trump's promises to his corporate backers..

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by >THE Ben Reilly< on Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:13 am

It's always going to be the rich vs. the rest of us! They don't care about us/ fear us/ want to make sure we're under control.

If you can't see that, then, as we Texans say, bless your heart.

(Which means, you poor fucking idiot.)

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:54 am

Ben Reilly wrote:It's always going to be the rich vs. the rest of us! They don't care about us/ fear us/ want to make sure we're under control.

If you can't see that, then, as we Texans say, bless your heart.

(Which means, you poor fucking idiot.)


Does it have to be the rich verses the rest of us?

No and that sort of crap thinking led to millions suffering oppression under Communism

I do not think you have a conception of people who have worked their way up.

People who are winners that have achieved goals. Where most people easily cower away from even thinking about doing. That they fail to rise to the challenge.

All I see in your words above is bitterness.

I grew up with naff all in poverty and do not envy anyone.

Maybe you need to look at yourself if you do, because why should it have to feel  you are against someone, who has bettered their life more so than you?

Do you work like many of the richest in companies that are worth billions, that spend ridiculous amounts of time working and why their companies are worth a fortune?

The only reality here is that we ensure that people are better paid for what they do and which ensures they have a better quality of lie. Not start a war as you wish to do, on people who have become rich based off the empires they have built up within their companies and time. They pay far more in taxes and contributions to millions, than you will ever hope to achieve in your lifetime.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Maddog on Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:53 pm

Didge wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:It's always going to be the rich vs. the rest of us! They don't care about us/ fear us/ want to make sure we're under control.

If you can't see that, then, as we Texans say, bless your heart.

(Which means, you poor fucking idiot.)


Does it have to be the rich verses the rest of us?

No and that sort of crap thinking led to millions suffering oppression under Communism

I do not think you have a conception of people who have worked their way up.

People who are winners that have achieved goals. Where most people easily cower away from even thinking about doing. That they fail to rise to the challenge.

All I see in your words above is bitterness.

I grew up with naff all in poverty and do not envy anyone.

Maybe you need to look at yourself if you do, because why should it have to feel  you are against someone, who has bettered their life more so than you?

Do you work like many of the richest in companies that are worth billions, that spend ridiculous amounts of time working and why their companies are worth a fortune?

The only reality here is that we ensure that people are better paid for what they do and which ensures they have a better quality of lie. Not start a war as you wish to do, on people who have become rich based off the empires they have built up within their companies and time. They pay far more in taxes and contributions to millions, than you will ever hope to achieve in your lifetime.

God I hate class envy. I wonder how many millions of deaths can be attributed to it?

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:07 pm

Didge wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:It's always going to be the rich vs. the rest of us! They don't care about us/ fear us/ want to make sure we're under control.

If you can't see that, then, as we Texans say, bless your heart.

(Which means, you poor fucking idiot.)


Does it have to be the rich verses the rest of us?

No and that sort of crap thinking led to millions suffering oppression under Communism

So your answer is: DO Nothing?

Didge wrote:I do not think you have a conception of people who have worked their way up.

I don't think the Trump or the Koch Bros. do either. They inherited their money. Most wealthy people today have no idea about hard work or working their way up.

Didge wrote:People who are winners that have achieved goals. Where most people easily cower away from even thinking about doing. That they fail to rise to the challenge.

They call it the ovarian lottery. The "skill", if you call it that, was in finding the right uterus.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:59 pm

Maddog wrote:
Didge wrote:


Does it have to be the rich verses the rest of us?

No and that sort of crap thinking led to millions suffering oppression under Communism

I do not think you have a conception of people who have worked their way up.

People who are winners that have achieved goals. Where most people easily cower away from even thinking about doing. That they fail to rise to the challenge.

All I see in your words above is bitterness.

I grew up with naff all in poverty and do not envy anyone.

Maybe you need to look at yourself if you do, because why should it have to feel  you are against someone, who has bettered their life more so than you?

Do you work like many of the richest in companies that are worth billions, that spend ridiculous amounts of time working and why their companies are worth a fortune?

The only reality here is that we ensure that people are better paid for what they do and which ensures they have a better quality of lie. Not start a war as you wish to do, on people who have become rich based off the empires they have built up within their companies and time. They pay far more in taxes and contributions to millions, than you will ever hope to achieve in your lifetime.

God I hate class envy.  I wonder how many millions of deaths can be attributed to it?  

So do I.

It would be interesting to look calaculate

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:00 am

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:


Does it have to be the rich verses the rest of us?

No and that sort of crap thinking led to millions suffering oppression under Communism

So your answer is: DO Nothing?

Didge wrote:I do not think you have a conception of people who have worked their way up.

I don't think the Trump or the Koch Bros. do either.  They inherited their money.  Most wealthy people today have no idea about hard work or working their way up.

Didge wrote:People who are winners that have achieved goals. Where most people easily cower away from even thinking about doing. That they fail to rise to the challenge.

They call it the ovarian lottery.  The "skill", if you call it that, was in finding the right uterus.


Boring, and you are failing to understand the points again

Read my points and then answer properly next time

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:20 am

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

So your answer is: DO Nothing?



I don't think the Trump or the Koch Bros. do either.  They inherited their money.  Most wealthy people today have no idea about hard work or working their way up.



They call it the ovarian lottery.  The "skill", if you call it that, was in finding the right uterus.


Boring, and you are failing to understand the points again

Read my points and then answer properly next time

You have no points. I've refuted all of them in the above.

The old myth that wealth is the product of hard work is nonsense. Wealth today is inheritance.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:30 am

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:


Boring, and you are failing to understand the points again

Read my points and then answer properly next time

You have no points.  I've refuted all of them in the above.

The old myth that wealth is the product of hard work is nonsense.  Wealth today is inheritance.


No, you never refuted a single point

All you did was prove that people have envy.

Do you want those rich and successful to solve your problems or others?

Do you think centering your anger at those rich, is going to make you feel better?

Are they responsible or you responsible for your actions in life?

What amount of your money, do you set aside for helping others?

Does it even come near to how much, many of the rich give to charity?

Seriously, how much do you daily donate to others? Or do you simple ignore many people and berate the rich, for they actually do help many people and you only wished to be able to do the same? Yet you actually cower away from doing so. Seeking to blame the rich, why you cower away from helping people.,

You want to blame others and not yourself.

What example are you setting, when you constantly make demands of others?

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:46 pm

Maddog wrote:
Didge wrote:
Does it have to be the rich verses the rest of us?

No and that sort of crap thinking led to millions suffering oppression under Communism

I do not think you have a conception of people who have worked their way up.

People who are winners that have achieved goals. Where most people easily cower away from even thinking about doing. That they fail to rise to the challenge.

All I see in your words above is bitterness.

I grew up with naff all in poverty and do not envy anyone.

Maybe you need to look at yourself if you do, because why should it have to feel  you are against someone, who has bettered their life more so than you?

Do you work like many of the richest in companies that are worth billions, that spend ridiculous amounts of time working and why their companies are worth a fortune?

The only reality here is that we ensure that people are better paid for what they do and which ensures they have a better quality of lie. Not start a war as you wish to do, on people who have become rich based off the empires they have built up within their companies and time. They pay far more in taxes and contributions to millions, than you will ever hope to achieve in your lifetime.

God I hate class envy.  I wonder how many millions of deaths can be attributed to it?  



"Class envy"...

What "class" would that be, then..

You two are definitely 'more arse than class'  !

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Maddog on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:05 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:
God I hate class envy.  I wonder how many millions of deaths can be attributed to it?  



"Class envy"...

What "class" would that be, then..

You two are definitely 'more arse than class'  !

That's possible. I didn't invent the term and I don't equate wealth with class. The amount of money a person has absolutely nothing to do with what I think of them.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:09 pm

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:


"Class envy"...

What "class" would that be, then..

You two are definitely 'more arse than class'  !

That's possible.  I didn't invent the term and I don't equate wealth with class. The amount of money a person has absolutely nothing to do with what I think of them.  


Spot on
Envy is clearly the case here

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:05 pm

Didge wrote:No, you never refuted a single point

All you did was prove that people have envy.

This exemplifies my point exactly. You are an intellectual lunatic. All I said was:

Original Quill wrote:The old myth that wealth is the product of hard work is nonsense. Wealth today is inheritance.

I don't give a sheet about envy. It has nothing to do with the conversation.

Jeeze...talk about lost and late. Rolling Eyes

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If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:11 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:No, you never refuted a single point

All you did was prove that people have envy.

This exemplifies my point exactly.  You are an intellectual lunatic.  All I said was:

Original Quill wrote:The old myth that wealth is the product of hard work is nonsense.  Wealth today is inheritance.

I don't give a sheet about envy.  It has nothing to do with the conversation.

Jeeze...talk about lost and late.  Rolling Eyes


Well you must have envy, as you still have not answered my points but avoided them.

Lets start with a simple one.

What do you give out of your money to others?

What percentage is that of your wage?

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:25 pm

Didge wrote:...as you still have not answered my points but avoided them.
 

 

What'd I just say?

Original Quill wrote:Do you see why people lack patience with you?  You don't read; you don't retain; and you don't think.  You're like those bobblehead dolls, with your repetitious ...didn't answer my points.



Last edited by Original Quill on Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:40 pm; edited 2 times in total

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If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:27 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:...as you still have not answered my points but avoided them.
 

 

What'd I just say?


Nothing that answered my points

Again

What do you give out of your money to others?

What percentage is that of your wage?

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:24 am

Didge wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:It's always going to be the rich vs. the rest of us! They don't care about us/ fear us/ want to make sure we're under control.

If you can't see that, then, as we Texans say, bless your heart.

(Which means, you poor fucking idiot.)


Does it have to be the rich verses the rest of us?

No and that sort of crap thinking led to millions suffering oppression under Communism

I do not think you have a conception of people who have worked their way up.

People who are winners that have achieved goals. Where most people easily cower away from even thinking about doing. That they fail to rise to the challenge.

All I see in your words above is bitterness.

I grew up with naff all in poverty and do not envy anyone.

Maybe you need to look at yourself if you do, because why should it have to feel  you are against someone, who has bettered their life more so than you?

Do you work like many of the richest in companies that are worth billions, that spend ridiculous amounts of time working and why their companies are worth a fortune?

The only reality here is that we ensure that people are better paid for what they do and which ensures they have a better quality of lie. Not start a war as you wish to do, on people who have become rich based off the empires they have built up within their companies and time. They pay far more in taxes and contributions to millions, than you will ever hope to achieve in your lifetime.

probably Cool
At least it has been since the Roman Republic Wink

LOL at your silly points after that.
Technically I have increased my Wealth by More than Trump relative to starting wealth. But He's still A LOT richer and able to run companies at a loss for long enough to put any new starters out of Business, just like the Boni of Ancient Rome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimates
sadly not much has changed in the reality of wealth versus the rest.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:35 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:


Does it have to be the rich verses the rest of us?

No and that sort of crap thinking led to millions suffering oppression under Communism

I do not think you have a conception of people who have worked their way up.

People who are winners that have achieved goals. Where most people easily cower away from even thinking about doing. That they fail to rise to the challenge.

All I see in your words above is bitterness.

I grew up with naff all in poverty and do not envy anyone.

Maybe you need to look at yourself if you do, because why should it have to feel  you are against someone, who has bettered their life more so than you?

Do you work like many of the richest in companies that are worth billions, that spend ridiculous amounts of time working and why their companies are worth a fortune?

The only reality here is that we ensure that people are better paid for what they do and which ensures they have a better quality of lie. Not start a war as you wish to do, on people who have become rich based off the empires they have built up within their companies and time. They pay far more in taxes and contributions to millions, than you will ever hope to achieve in your lifetime.

probably Cool
At least it has been since the Roman Republic Wink

LOL at your silly points after that.
Technically I have increased my Wealth by More than Trump relative to starting wealth. But He's still A LOT richer and able to run companies at a loss for long enough to put any new starters out of Business, just like the Boni of Ancient Rome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimates  
sadly not much has changed in the reality of wealth versus the rest.
#

You never answered many of my points, you simple ignored them.

So I am right this is clearly based on envy and hate.

A hate of people successful and have no idea why you and Quill continue to bang on about Trump. As if he is the standard for all successful people

The reality is this, and again what do you give to others based relatively from your wages?

There is no need for a conlict and belief around wealth. As seen its based on envy.

You cant place all problems on the rich, due to the incompetenace of countless Governements

You cant also expect the rich to constantly bail everyone out. Its hardly equality is it?

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:42 pm

Didge wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:

probably Cool
At least it has been since the Roman Republic Wink

LOL at your silly points after that.
Technically I have increased my Wealth by More than Trump relative to starting wealth. But He's still A LOT richer and able to run companies at a loss for long enough to put any new starters out of Business, just like the Boni of Ancient Rome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimates  
sadly not much has changed in the reality of wealth versus the rest.
#

You never answered many of my points, you simple ignored them.

What'd I just say?

Original Quill wrote:Do you see why people lack patience with you?  You don't read; you don't retain; and you don't think.  You're like those bobblehead dolls, with your repetitious ...didn't answer my points.


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If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:44 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:
#

You never answered many of my points, you simple ignored them.

What'd I just say?

Original Quill wrote:Do you see why people lack patience with you?  You don't read; you don't retain; and you don't think.  You're like those bobblehead dolls, with your repetitious ...didn't answer my points.


I could care less, all you are offering is some pathetic excuse

Eiether debate or jog the fuck on.

So again, answer my points or stop wasting my time with your inane drivel

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:07 pm

Didge wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

What'd I just say?




I could care less, all you are offering is some pathetic excuse

Eiether debate or jog the fuck on.

So again, answer my points or stop wasting my time with your inane drivel

You call this debating?



Haha...I demand an answer!

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:09 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Didge wrote:


I could care less, all you are offering is some pathetic excuse

Eiether debate or jog the fuck on.

So again, answer my points or stop wasting my time with your inane drivel

You call this debating?



Haha...I demand an answer!


I call you pathetic

Insecure

Envious

Lacking any compassion

Hence I can do this all day. You want to make this about me. Very happy that you do so and surrender the debate to me..

It still means you are running scared from my points, hence your poor delfections

So either answer my points or jog the fuck on

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Original Quill on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:18 pm

Rolling Eyes

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"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

If you can't indict, and you don't impeach, you've got villainy.

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars
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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:21 pm

Original Quill wrote:Rolling Eyes


Conclusion:

Running scared.

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Maddog on Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:26 pm

It's easy to see how communists used class envy to justify killing millions of their fellow citizens.

It's a powerful tool. Wink

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by veya_victaous on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:51 pm

Didge wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:


Does it have to be the rich verses the rest of us?

No and that sort of crap thinking led to millions suffering oppression under Communism

I do not think you have a conception of people who have worked their way up.

People who are winners that have achieved goals. Where most people easily cower away from even thinking about doing. That they fail to rise to the challenge.

All I see in your words above is bitterness.

I grew up with naff all in poverty and do not envy anyone.

Maybe you need to look at yourself if you do, because why should it have to feel  you are against someone, who has bettered their life more so than you?

Do you work like many of the richest in companies that are worth billions, that spend ridiculous amounts of time working and why their companies are worth a fortune?

The only reality here is that we ensure that people are better paid for what they do and which ensures they have a better quality of lie. Not start a war as you wish to do, on people who have become rich based off the empires they have built up within their companies and time. They pay far more in taxes and contributions to millions, than you will ever hope to achieve in your lifetime.

probably Cool
At least it has been since the Roman Republic Wink

LOL at your silly points after that.
Technically I have increased my Wealth by More than Trump relative to starting wealth. But He's still A LOT richer and able to run companies at a loss for long enough to put any new starters out of Business, just like the Boni of Ancient Rome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimates  
sadly not much has changed in the reality of wealth versus the rest.
#

You never answered many of my points, you simple ignored them.

So I am right this is clearly based on envy and hate.

A hate of people successful and have no idea why you and Quill continue to bang on about Trump. As if he is the standard for all successful people

The reality is this, and again what do you give to others based relatively from your wages?

There is no need for a conlict and belief around wealth. As seen its based on envy.

You cant place all problems on the rich, due to the incompetenace of countless Governements

You cant also expect the rich to constantly bail everyone out. Its hardly equality is it?

the rich are rich because of the incompetence of Gov't.

No one has a right to be rich, Inheritance is not an Innate natural concept
all are creations of men to monopolise wealth and power going all the way back to ancient Greece and probably even before that.

Cause Trump is the example of everything wrong with accepting the bullshit that is inherited wealth and equating wealth to success.

And I never needed to answer all your points cause I answer the bolded one.
the reason is "it is the nature of the beast called man" you may as well ask why the world turns Wink


If all are Born with equal right to existence why must the poor pay a higher price than the rich?
why must thousands be forced to grind their lives away to increase the wealth of the few?
Under the policy of 'the least harm to the least amount of individuals' it is only fair for society to 'consume' the 10 wealthiest over the million poorest

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Re: Democrats Are Being Outmaneuvered

Post by Maddog on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:54 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:
#

You never answered many of my points, you simple ignored them.

So I am right this is clearly based on envy and hate.

A hate of people successful and have no idea why you and Quill continue to bang on about Trump. As if he is the standard for all successful people

The reality is this, and again what do you give to others based relatively from your wages?

There is no need for a conlict and belief around wealth. As seen its based on envy.

You cant place all problems on the rich, due to the incompetenace of countless Governements

You cant also expect the rich to constantly bail everyone out. Its hardly equality is it?

the rich are rich because of the incompetence of Gov't.

No one has a right to be rich,  Inheritance is not an Innate natural concept
all are creations of men to monopolise wealth and power going all the way back to ancient Greece and probably even before that.

Cause Trump is the example of everything wrong with accepting the bullshit that is inherited wealth and equating wealth to success.

And I never needed to answer all your points cause I answer the bolded one.
the reason is "it is the nature of the beast called man"  you may as well ask why the world turns Wink


If all are Born with equal right to existence why must the poor pay a higher price than the rich?
why must thousands be forced to grind their lives away to increase the wealth of the few?
Under the policy of 'the least harm to the least amount of individuals' it is only fair for society to 'consume' the 10 wealthiest over the million poorest  


It's easy to see how communists used class envy to justify killing millions of their fellow citizens.

It's a powerful tool.

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