No justice for Poppi.

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No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

Poppi Worthington was anally penetrated by her father before being left in an "unsafe" sleeping environment and dying from asphyxia, a senior corner concluded yesterday. Her father Paul Worthington has refused to answer any questions about the night Poppy died and is unlikely to ever stand trial.
Poppi died five years ago, she suffered bleeding, bruising and tears to her bottom caused by sexual assault before she died. Poppi was in the care of her father, and her mother, who was sleeping downstairs, the mothers identity has remained private for legal reasons.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/alison-phillips-no-justice-little-11862876


"By rights Poppi Worthington should be at school this morning.
She should be sat in a Year One classroom practising her reading or painting rainbows.
Instead she has spent the last five years in a Cumbrian graveyard denied all that life could offer.
What’s more she has been denied justice by an incompetent police investigation, a pathetic justice system, and ultimately, by her deviant father.
On Monday, at Kendal Coroner’s Court, came the third judgement concluding 13-month-old Poppi was sexually assaulted in the hours before her death in December 2012.
No one can be certain how she actually died, because only she and her father Paul Worthington were in the bedroom that night. And Worthington has consistently refused to say a single word about it.
So while little Poppi has lain in that windswept cemetery, let’s consider what’s happened to the othermain players in this terrible saga.


Her father is being kept in a witness protection scheme costing taxpayers like you and me £50,000 per year.
He is likely to remain that way from now on which means we’ll probably shell out the best part of a million pounds over his worthless lifetime.
And even when he declined 252 times to answer questions about Poppi’s death at the most recent inquest, still his payday continues.


Meanwhile, there are the police officers who so fouled up the investigation into the baby’s death that by the time they questioned Worthington there was insufficient evidence to charge him.
The mistakes were multiple.
A report by the Independent Police Complaints Commission concluded two officers had a case to answer for gross misconduct.
But one retired on a full pension before disciplinary action could be taken. The other was demoted, but still retired on a police pension too. Again, paid for by us the taxpayers.


And then there is the South Cumbria coroner Ian Smith who in 2014 took just seven minutes to declare Poppi’s death "unexplained".

And of course the taxpayer-funded CPS who said there was "insufficient evidence" in July 2016 to charge Paul Worthington.


It is a litany of incompetence, negligence and inaction. While Paul Worthington has been rewarded for abuse. Not to mention what hasn’t been proved about him.

So, all in all, life has turned out OK for Worthington, the failed police officers, the seven-minute coroner and the crown prosecutors.

And Poppi? No, life didn’t turn out at all.
Betrayed in death as she was in life.
And it is an absolute disgrace."


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/poppi-worthington-justice-what-happens-11856666


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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:23 pm

Here it all is again... 3rd time posting now...



'...The toddler, who was suffering from an upper respiratory tract infection at the time, later died from asphyxia caused by the illness...'


'...two pathologists who conducted a post-mortem on Poppi... One was concerned she had sustained injuries from serious sexual abuse... but the other claimed they may have been caused by a medical condition...'


The article also mentions that Poppi had 'siblings'... suggesting others were in the house on that night... don't know how many or how old any were at the time...


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/poppi-worthington-death-father-paul-sexual-abuse-assault-charges-prosecution-coroner-inquest-a8164791.html

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:24 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I'm not making anything up... the quotes I gave are from the news article link I posted along with quotes...!


Where is the link that says this?

...The toddler, who was suffering from an upper respiratory tract infection at the time, later died from asphyxia caused by the illness...'

Tommy...the full paragraph reads..

".The toddler, who was suffering from an upper respiratory tract infection at the time, later died from asphyxia caused by the illness and an “unsafe sleeping environment” in her father’s double bed."

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:29 pm

It's in the article on the link I gave... I c&p'd it from the text of the article when I posted it...!



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:38 pm

Worthington had never taken Poppi into his bed before this night.

He had been watching some type of porn....he managed to get rid of his computer before the police could examine it.

He came down for a clean nappy some time after the Mother had heard Poppi screaming.

The nappy was never found, neither was Poppis pj bottoms, which the father had removed.

Poppi had, apart from anal wounds made by a penis or penis shaped object, leg fractures which had never been reported, which made the pathologist with 30 years experience 'suspicious of child abuse'.

Blood in the nose and bruises on the throat can often be a sign of smothering or suffocation. 

Had the police not made such an utter blunder of the investigation Worthington would now be in jail, and hopefully getting the treatment baby rapists and murderers get from other inmates.

If there is any justice in the world one day he will.

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:42 pm

Link please...!?



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:53 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Link please...!?


Everything is in the links I have posted Tommy....so far 3 or 4 of them.

I am curious to know....the police ballsed everything up so Poppis murder cant be proved...as yet.

However she had suffered severe  anal damage, even though that didn't kill her.
That has been proven as she bled before she died.
How would you explain the damage to her that was caused by a penis or penis shaped object?

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:12 pm

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:I'm not making anything up... the quotes I gave are from the news article link I posted along with quotes...!


Where is the link that says this?

...The toddler, who was suffering from an upper respiratory tract infection at the time, later died from asphyxia caused by the illness...'

Tommy...the full paragraph reads..

".The toddler, who was suffering from an upper respiratory tract infection at the time, later died from asphyxia caused by the illness and an “unsafe sleeping environment” in her father’s double bed."


Yes I know what the full paragraph is... the last bit is very vague, and not sure what it means/relates to exactly... or in any way a criminal offence, or in any way an indicator of any intent to harm/injure child... which is why I left it out... the bit I did post is a much more important factor in childs death, although being mainly overlooked by people...!



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:16 pm

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Link please...!?


Everything is in the links I have posted Tommy....so far 3 or 4 of them.

I am curious to know....the police ballsed everything up so Poppis murder cant be proved...as yet.

However she had suffered severe  anal damage, even though that didn't kill her.
That has been proven as she bled before she died.
How would you explain the damage to her that was caused by a penis or penis shaped object?


Can I have direct quotes and links for each claim there please...?



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:23 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Syl wrote:
Where is the link that says this?

...The toddler, who was suffering from an upper respiratory tract infection at the time, later died from asphyxia caused by the illness...'

Tommy...the full paragraph reads..

".The toddler, who was suffering from an upper respiratory tract infection at the time, later died from asphyxia caused by the illness and an “unsafe sleeping environment” in her father’s double bed."


Yes I know what the full paragraph is... the last bit is very vague, and not sure what it means/relates to exactly... or in any way a criminal offence, or in any way an indicator of any intent to harm/injure child... which is why I left it out... the bit I did post is a much more important factor in childs death, although being mainly overlooked by people...!


By leaving it out it read that Poppi died form her illness. More than one account says that she could have died from strangulation or smothering....the actual cause of her asphyxiation has never been explained.

David Roberts, senior coroner for Cumbria, ruled at the conclusion of her inquest at Kendal Coroner’s Court that Poppi ‘suffered injuries caused by anal penetration’. Her cause of death was asphyxia due to an unsafe sleeping environment following the sexual assault, he said.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2018/01/15/poppi-worthington-sexually-abused-dad-died-coroner-rules-7230687/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:27 pm

An “'unsafe sleeping environment' in her father’s double bed" sounds like someone is being careful about the language they use.

I'm still concerned about this: "but the other [pathologist] claimed they may have been caused by a medical condition...' Do we have the report of this second pathologist? Putting aside the "unsafe sleeping environment", I would like to know what this "medical condition" was?


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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Maddog on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:27 pm

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


Yes I know what the full paragraph is... the last bit is very vague, and not sure what it means/relates to exactly... or in any way a criminal offence, or in any way an indicator of any intent to harm/injure child... which is why I left it out... the bit I did post is a much more important factor in childs death, although being mainly overlooked by people...!


By leaving it out it read that Poppi died form her illness. More than one account says that she could have died from strangulation or smothering....the actual cause of her asphyxiation has never been explained.

David Roberts, senior coroner for Cumbria, ruled at the conclusion of her inquest at Kendal Coroner’s Court that Poppi ‘suffered injuries caused by anal penetration’. Her cause of death was asphyxia due to an unsafe sleeping environment following the sexual assault, he said.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2018/01/15/poppi-worthington-sexually-abused-dad-died-coroner-rules-7230687/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

Helen Keller could have solved this case. Crying or Very sad

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:29 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Syl wrote:
Everything is in the links I have posted Tommy....so far 3 or 4 of them.

I am curious to know....the police ballsed everything up so Poppis murder cant be proved...as yet.

However she had suffered severe  anal damage, even though that didn't kill her.
That has been proven as she bled before she died.
How would you explain the damage to her that was caused by a penis or penis shaped object?


Can I have direct quotes and links for each claim there please...?


They are all spelt out in this thread Tommy....you don't even have to click on the links.
Plus, everything I listed has been well documented over the last five years.

I'm sorry, but if you don't even know the basic facts of the case how can you possibly be arguing in Worthingtons defence.

Can you now answer how you think Poppy recieved such severe anal injuries which was caused by a penis or a penis shaped object?

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Original Quill on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:31 pm

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:
By leaving it out it read that Poppi died form her illness. More than one account says that she could have died from strangulation or smothering....the actual cause of her asphyxiation has never been explained.

David Roberts, senior coroner for Cumbria, ruled at the conclusion of her inquest at Kendal Coroner’s Court that Poppi ‘suffered injuries caused by anal penetration’. Her cause of death was asphyxia due to an unsafe sleeping environment following the sexual assault, he said.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2018/01/15/poppi-worthington-sexually-abused-dad-died-coroner-rules-7230687/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

Helen Keller could have solved this case.  Crying or Very sad

Again, you are incautious.  That's one pathologist.

Do you think a defense attorney is not going to have fun with the report of the other pathologist?  Better know what's in it, before going off on a reckless tangent.

What was the "medical condition" reported by the second pathologist?

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:36 pm

As I said... vague... and not sure what it means...


Parents have children asleep with them in all manner of places that you could describe as 'unsafe sleeping environment'...


I think the infection was the important factor here...




Last edited by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Maddog on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:38 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
As I said... vague... and not sure what it means...


Parents have children asleep with them in all manner of places that you could describe as 'unsafe sleeping condions'...


I think the infection was the important factor here...



How many of them have their anus probed?

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:42 pm

Original Quill wrote:An  “'unsafe sleeping environment' in her father’s double bed" sounds like someone is being careful about the language they use.

I'm still concerned about this: "but the other [pathologist] claimed they may have been caused by a medical condition...'  Do we have the report of this second pathologist?  Putting aside the "unsafe sleeping environment", I would like to know what this "medical condition" was?

All I have read is that Poppi had a respiratory tract infection. Her Mother said she had been unwell for a few days, I have not read the child was taken to a Dr or had been prescribed any medication, I have read she was a normal healthy child.

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:44 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
As I said... vague... and not sure what it means...


Parents have children asleep with them in all manner of places that you could describe as 'unsafe sleeping condions'...


I think the infection was the important factor here...


You are blinkered Tommy.  Rolling Eyes

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:47 pm



In case anyone hasn't seen her, this is Poppi, the beautiful little girl who suffered so badly and yet no one has been charged with her rape and murder.

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:52 pm

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


Can I have direct quotes and links for each claim there please...?


They are all spelt out in this thread Tommy....you don't even have to click on the links.
Plus, everything I listed has been well documented over the last five years.

I'm sorry, but if you don't even know the basic facts of the case how can you possibly be arguing in Worthingtons defence.

Can you now answer how you think Poppy recieved such severe anal injuries which was caused by a penis or a penis shaped object?


You say these are 'basic facts' without giving any credible quotes from any sources...


Start by giving me a credible detailed description of the alleged injuries and source...?



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Maddog on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:53 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Syl wrote:
They are all spelt out in this thread Tommy....you don't even have to click on the links.
Plus, everything I listed has been well documented over the last five years.

I'm sorry, but if you don't even know the basic facts of the case how can you possibly be arguing in Worthingtons defence.

Can you now answer how you think Poppy recieved such severe anal injuries which was caused by a penis or a penis shaped object?


You say these are 'basic facts' without giving any credible quotes from any sources...


Start by giving me a credible detailed description of the alleged injuries and source...?



Do you want a fucking eye witness to show you pics at the time of penetration?

You're a twisted fuck.

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:53 pm

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


Can I have direct quotes and links for each claim there please...?


They are all spelt out in this thread Tommy....you don't even have to click on the links.
Plus, everything I listed has been well documented over the last five years.

I'm sorry, but if you don't even know the basic facts of the case how can you possibly be arguing in Worthingtons defence.

Can you now answer how you think Poppy recieved such severe anal injuries which was caused by a penis or a penis shaped object?


You say these are 'basic facts' without giving any credible quotes from any sources...


Start by giving me a credible detailed description of the alleged injuries and source...?



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:56 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Syl wrote:
They are all spelt out in this thread Tommy....you don't even have to click on the links.
Plus, everything I listed has been well documented over the last five years.

I'm sorry, but if you don't even know the basic facts of the case how can you possibly be arguing in Worthingtons defence.

Can you now answer how you think Poppy recieved such severe anal injuries which was caused by a penis or a penis shaped object?


You say these are 'basic facts' without giving any credible quotes from any sources...


Start by giving me a credible detailed description of the alleged injuries and source...?


You obviously haven't read the links. Rolling Eyes

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:02 pm

Maddog wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


You say these are 'basic facts' without giving any credible quotes from any sources...


Start by giving me a credible detailed description of the alleged injuries and source...?



Do you want a fucking eye witness to show you pics at the time of penetration?

You're a twisted fuck.


That is not what I asked for at all...!!!


You are the one doing the twisting...!!!



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:06 pm

Original Quill wrote:An  “'unsafe sleeping environment' in her father’s double bed" sounds like someone is being careful about the language they use.

I'm still concerned about this: "but the other [pathologist] claimed they may have been caused by a medical condition...'  Do we have the report of this second pathologist?  Putting aside the "unsafe sleeping environment", I would like to know what this "medical condition" was?



That is what I'm trying to establish...



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Maddog on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:08 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Do you want a fucking eye witness to show you pics at the time of penetration?

You're a twisted fuck.


That is not what I asked for at all...!!!


You are the one doing the twisting...!!!



What source will suffice, because I have read several, and it's disgustingly clear what happened here?

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:13 pm

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


You say these are 'basic facts' without giving any credible quotes from any sources...


Start by giving me a credible detailed description of the alleged injuries and source...?


You obviously haven't read the links. Rolling Eyes


I have read your posts... there are bits of quotes and bits that the journalists have said may have occurred...


I'm trying to stick to the official facts...



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:34 pm

Maddog wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


That is not what I asked for at all...!!!


You are the one doing the twisting...!!!



What source will suffice, because I have read several, and it's disgustingly clear what happened here?


Official source direct quotes will suffice... not journalists speculation, or misrepresentation of the facts, that will not do...!



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Maddog on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:48 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Maddog wrote:

What source will suffice, because I have read several, and it's disgustingly clear what happened here?


Official source direct quotes will suffice... not journalists speculation, or misrepresentation of the facts, that will not do...!



David Roberts, senior coroner for Cumbria, ruled at the conclusion of her inquest at Kendal Coroner’s Court that Poppi ‘suffered injuries caused by anal penetration’. Her cause of death was asphyxia due to an unsafe sleeping environment following the sexual assault, he said.


Is David Roberts official enough or would you like the fucking Queen to comment?

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:57 pm



In answer to your questions... no... and no...!



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Maddog on Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:00 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

In answer to your questions... no... and no...!



So the coroner is not official enough for you?

How about their bin man?

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:12 pm



'...David Roberts, senior coroner for Cumbria, ruled at the conclusion of her inquest at Kendal Coroner’s Court that Poppi ‘suffered injuries caused by anal penetration’. Her cause of death was asphyxia due to an unsafe sleeping environment following the sexual assault, he said...'


Which parts of the above are direct quotes of the coroner, and which parts are added by the journalist...?



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:31 pm




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-42299057



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Maddog on Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:37 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

'...David Roberts, senior coroner for Cumbria, ruled at the conclusion of her inquest at Kendal Coroner’s Court that Poppi ‘suffered injuries caused by anal penetration’. Her cause of death was asphyxia due to an unsafe sleeping environment following the sexual assault, he said...'


Which parts of the above are direct quotes of the coroner, and which parts are added by the journalist...?



The part in quotes before "he said".

David Roberts wrote: ‘suffered injuries caused by anal penetration’. Her cause of death was asphyxia due to an unsafe sleeping environment following the sexual assault,

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:43 pm

No... wrong again... only the bit in quotation marks is a direct quote...


And missing the rest of what he actually said, and the context...


Try reading the evidence again...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-42299057



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Jules on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:10 am

Is it me or does this dad look like Ilie Nastase who was a talented tennis player in his prime, but quite crazy. 


I find the resemblance distracting!  scratch




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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Maddog on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:14 am

Jules wrote:Is it me or does this dad look like Ilie Nastase who was a talented tennis player in his prime, but quite crazy. 


I find the resemblance distracting!  scratch





Psssssst

I think those are the crazy Californians, not the crazy Brits. Wink

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:23 am

Tommy Monk wrote:No... wrong again... only the bit in quotation marks is a direct quote...


And missing the rest of what he actually said, and the context...


Try reading the evidence again...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-42299057



And this is the result of the findings which were published AFTER the bbc report you posted


."David Roberts, senior coroner for Cumbria, concluded on Monday that on the balance of probabilities the 13-month-old toddler was abused by her father Paul – the third court judgment against him."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/17/poppi-worthington-prosecutors-consider-coroners-ruling

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Jules on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:40 am

Maddog wrote:
Jules wrote:Is it me or does this dad look like Ilie Nastase who was a talented tennis player in his prime, but quite crazy. 


I find the resemblance distracting!  scratch





Psssssst

I think those are the crazy Californians, not the crazy Brits.   Wink


Oh thank you, maddog, I posted on the wrong child abuse thread!

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:46 am

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:No... wrong again... only the bit in quotation marks is a direct quote...


And missing the rest of what he actually said, and the context...


Try reading the evidence again...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-42299057



And this is the result of the findings which were published AFTER the bbc report you posted


."David Roberts, senior coroner for Cumbria, concluded on Monday that on the balance of probabilities the 13-month-old toddler was abused by her father Paul – the third court judgment against him."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/17/poppi-worthington-prosecutors-consider-coroners-ruling

I will repost this so Tommy may acknowledge that the links we have posted are the latest findings.
The link Tommy posted was written before the senior coronor had made his conclusions on Monday 14th January.

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Original Quill on Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:57 am

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:An  “'unsafe sleeping environment' in her father’s double bed" sounds like someone is being careful about the language they use.

I'm still concerned about this: "but the other [pathologist] claimed they may have been caused by a medical condition...'  Do we have the report of this second pathologist?  Putting aside the "unsafe sleeping environment", I would like to know what this "medical condition" was?

All I have read is that Poppi had a respiratory tract infection. Her Mother said she had been unwell for a few days, I have not read the child was taken to a Dr or had been prescribed any medication, I have read she was a normal healthy child.

Sooo...Need to know, eh?

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Cass on Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:23 am

Syl wrote:
Syl wrote:

And this is the result of the findings which were published AFTER the bbc report you posted


."David Roberts, senior coroner for Cumbria, concluded on Monday that on the balance of probabilities the 13-month-old toddler was abused by her father Paul – the third court judgment against him."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/17/poppi-worthington-prosecutors-consider-coroners-ruling

I will repost this so Tommy may acknowledge that the links we have posted are the latest findings.
The link Tommy  posted was written before the senior coronor had made his conclusions on Monday 14th January.

I applaud your perseverance. Alas it will be futile. Save yourself the trouble. Sane people know what happened.

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:39 am

Syl wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:No... wrong again... only the bit in quotation marks is a direct quote...


And missing the rest of what he actually said, and the context...


Try reading the evidence again...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-42299057



And this is the result of the findings which were published AFTER the bbc report you posted


."David Roberts, senior coroner for Cumbria, concluded on Monday that on the balance of probabilities the 13-month-old toddler was abused by her father Paul – the third court judgment against him."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/17/poppi-worthington-prosecutors-consider-coroners-ruling


Yes I know what I posted... it is what the various child pathology experts said at the hearing... the experts opinions that coroner David Roberts appears to have mostly ignored while giving his opinion... 'his opinion' which goes against what the majority of the experts actually said...



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:43 am

Syl wrote:
Syl wrote:

And this is the result of the findings which were published AFTER the bbc report you posted


."David Roberts, senior coroner for Cumbria, concluded on Monday that on the balance of probabilities the 13-month-old toddler was abused by her father Paul – the third court judgment against him."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/17/poppi-worthington-prosecutors-consider-coroners-ruling

I will repost this so Tommy may acknowledge that the links we have posted are the latest findings.
The link Tommy  posted was written before the senior coronor had made his conclusions on Monday 14th January.


Again... yes I know... BBC the link I posted is showing the evidence that was provided at the hearing... and all but one of the pathology experts disagree with the coroners opinion...

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:53 am

And...




'...The toddler, who was suffering from an upper respiratory tract infection at the time, later died from asphyxia caused by the illness...'


'...two pathologists who conducted a post-mortem on Poppi... One was concerned she had sustained injuries from serious sexual abuse... but the other claimed they may have been caused by a medical condition...'


The article also mentions that Poppi had 'siblings'... suggesting others were in the house on that night... don't know how many or how old any were at the time...


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/poppi-worthington-death-father-paul-sexual-abuse-assault-charges-prosecution-coroner-inquest-a8164791.html





What is the date of this article, Syl...!?




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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:16 am

Five years after her death, what really happened to 13-month-old Poppi Worthington has finally been publicly examined by a full inquest. Senior coroner for Cumbria David Roberts will now spend a month drawing his conclusions. What evidence has he heard?
Almost 40 people have given evidence during the three-week inquest at Kendal's County Hall.
These have included Poppi's family, experts who fundamentally disagree about what happened, the police who failed to properly investigate and Poppi's father, who denies any wrong-doing.
Poppi died on 12 December 2012 and this is the second inquest into her death. The first, in 2014, ended after just seven minutes and concluded the cause of death was "unascertained".
Poppi's mother
According to her lawyers, Poppi's mother, who has been granted anonymity, just wants a clear answer to the question that has haunted her.
What happened to her "bubbly and funny" daughter?
She told the coroner she spent the night of 11 December sleeping on the sofa in the living room of her three-bedroom home in Barrow.
At some point she heard Poppi scream loudly. She described it as a similar scream to one the 13-month-old had made during the day when she appeared to have a pain in her stomach.
The night-time scream was quickly followed by the creak of her bedroom floorboard - a sign, she recalled, that her partner Paul Worthington had gone to check on their daughter.
She was then woken shortly before 06:00 by Mr Worthington shouting their girl was not breathing, she said.
He performed CPR while she called 999.
Poppi was rushed to Furness General Hospital but, at 07:07, she was declared dead, her heart having never resumed beating.
Poppi's father
Paul Worthington, who was given a police escort to the inquest amid fears for his safety, has been living a "nightmare" for the last five years, according to his lawyers.
He has never been charged with any offence and denies responsibility, but the suspicion he abused his daughter has "ruined the rest of his life", they said.
Those suspicions were first raised by Dr Osama Braima, a consultant paediatrician at Furness General Hospital, who noticed blood coming from Poppi's bottom.
Mr Worthington was told by the coroner the inquest was an opportunity to state his case publicly.
Mr Worthington refused to answer 252 questions - 69 on the first day and a further 183 on the second - citing his right under rule 22 of the Coroners and Justice Act not to incriminate himself.
The inquest did hear previous statements he had made, though, in which he claimed he heard Poppi cry out at 05:45 and found her sitting upright in her cot, rigid, as if she had had a nightmare.
He then left her on his bed while he went to get a fresh nappy, he had said. When he returned 90 seconds later Poppi seemed to be asleep, so he let her be for a moment.
When, a few minutes later, he touched her arm it was floppy and he realised she was not breathing.
Eleven hours after Poppi's death, the police asked to take swabs from Mr Worthington, to which he agreed.
His daughter's DNA was found on his penis but the location of it "tends to exclude" the possibility he had assaulted her, Michael Scarborough, the forensic scientist who tested it, said.
Mr Worthington's lawyers said the DNA had been transferred from his hands when he went to the toilet.
His DNA was not found on Poppi.
The accusing pathologist
Dr Alison Armour, a Home Office pathologist for 30 years, carried out the three-hour post-mortem examination of Poppi five days after her death.
The delay, caused by the unavailability of her and a colleague, was not unusual and would not have affected her findings, Dr Armour said.
Before she examined Poppi she saw a skeletal survey which revealed an old fracture to Poppi's leg.
The fact it had never been reported suggested to her the child had been abused, she said.
She was also told about previous police matters regarding Mr Worthington which had come to nothing.
An allegation had been made against him, which was later retracted, and he had been informally interviewed by police over an unrelated association with someone suspected of committing offences against children.
Mr Worthington's lawyers said Dr Armour was therefore "tainted" against him from the outset, something she denies.
Findings which caused her concern included an internal bruise, small haemorrhages and tiny tears in Poppi's bottom and the fact Poppi's bottom was dilated.
She said these indicated abuse but others strongly disagreed with her conclusion.
Dr Armour also said haemorrhages in Poppi's throat and lungs could have been caused by acute upper airways obstruction, for example if she had been smothered by being laid face down on a bed. These findings also drew strong disagreement from other experts.
She concluded that Poppi's death was unascertained but there was no natural cause.
The disagreements
Dr Nat Cary, a Home Office pathologist for 25 years, reviewed Dr Armour's findings and led the argument against her.
If Poppi had been abused he would have expected to see much more evidence, he said.
Such attacks do not cause "subtle" injuries, he said.
The condition of Poppi's bottom that caused Dr Armour to conclude abuse is a common phenomenon in child deaths, Dr Cary said.
He disputed that an internal mark classed as a bruise was anything of the sort.
The haemorrhages in Poppi's throat and chest were likely caused by the pro-longed resuscitation attempts, he told the inquest.
Dr Cary agreed Poppi's death was unascertained, and stated it was "unascertainable".
But, just because no natural cause had been found, it did not mean there was not one, he said.
Dr Liina Palm, a consultant in paediatric pathology, said some of the marks seen by Dr Armour could be a "post-mortem phenomenon" which arose in the five days between death and post-mortem examination.
Dr Alan Sprigg, consultant paediatric radiologist, and Prof Anthony Freemont, a histopathologist, said the bone fracture that caused concern for Dr Armour could have been accidental.
Dr Stephen Leadbeatter, a consultant forensic pathologist, agreed with Dr Armour that a "unifying hypothesis" for Poppi's injuries was sexual assault.
But he still could not persuade himself there was enough evidence such an assault had taken place.
Dr Victoria Aziz, a forensic physician for the Metropolitan Police (who was asked to review Poppi's case in October 2014 by Cumbria Police) said she was "pretty sure" there had been no assault.
She said in her 26 years' experience such assaults would produce much more severe injuries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-42299057





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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Tommy Monk on Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:00 am

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:'...The toddler, who was suffering from an upper respiratory tract infection at the time, later died from asphyxia caused by the illness...'

"...caused by the illness."  So there does seem to be a difference of opinion as to causation.  

I'll bet anything, that's what is holding up prosecution in this case.


Quill... have a look at this rundown of evidence and facts that were presented to the most recent coroners inquest...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-42299057



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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Miffs2 on Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:19 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:As I said... vague... and not sure what it means...


Parents have children asleep with them in all manner of places that you could describe as 'unsafe sleeping environment'...


I think the infection was the important factor here...



I think the fact Worthington raped her (in my opinion) is the important factor here.
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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:20 pm

Cass wrote:
Syl wrote:

I will repost this so Tommy may acknowledge that the links we have posted are the latest findings.
The link Tommy  posted was written before the senior coronor had made his conclusions on Monday 14th January.

I applaud your perseverance. Alas it will be futile. Save yourself the trouble. Sane people know what happened.

I have persevered because this case has been shunted back and forwards for years Cass.
No one has ever been held accountable, the main reason being the police made such horrendous cockups from the start.
Vital evidence was lost....I truly believe the more this case and its outcome is discussed, just maybe public outcry will be so loud that the authorities, including the cps will hopefully decide this case isn't over and done with and buried like Poppi, whilst the man who raped and murdered her walks free.

There is no point carrying on in here though, some people are blinkered.

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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Miffs2 on Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:29 pm

Syl wrote:
Cass wrote:

I applaud your perseverance. Alas it will be futile. Save yourself the trouble. Sane people know what happened.

I have persevered because this case has been shunted back and forwards for years Cass.
No one has ever been held accountable, the main reason being the police made such horrendous cockups from the start.
Vital evidence was lost....I truly believe the more this case and its outcome is discussed, just maybe public outcry will be so loud that the authorities, including the cps will hopefully decide this case isn't over and done with and buried like Poppi, whilst the man who raped and murdered her walks free.

There is no point carrying on in here though, some people are blinkered.

Some people are more interested in pedantry than the fate of Poppi.
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Re: No justice for Poppi.

Post by Syl on Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:42 pm

Miffs2 wrote:
Syl wrote:

I have persevered because this case has been shunted back and forwards for years Cass.
No one has ever been held accountable, the main reason being the police made such horrendous cockups from the start.
Vital evidence was lost....I truly believe the more this case and its outcome is discussed, just maybe public outcry will be so loud that the authorities, including the cps will hopefully decide this case isn't over and done with and buried like Poppi, whilst the man who raped and murdered her walks free.

There is no point carrying on in here though, some people are blinkered.

Some people are more interested in pedantry than the fate of Poppi.

I agree, and that's why I am not carrying on the debate with Tommy.

So far the only good thing to come out of the case is the father is living in fear.
At least he still has a life, the beautiful little girl who suffered so badly does not.

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