SWATTING

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SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:18 pm

Thursday night, Wichita, Kansas, Police sent out a SWAT team to respond to a 911 call that a man shot his father and was holding his family hostage in their home.

The telephone call was a lie. There was no hostage situation—but nevertheless a man at the home ended up dead, shot and killed by a police officer at his own front door.

Police right now are being tight-lipped about what actually happened at the home of the dead man, identified by relatives as Andrew Finch, 28, as the circumstances are still under investigation. Police did say they don't believe Finch fired on police officers before they shot him, according to the Wichita Eagle. His family says he was not armed.

It seems likely that this was the outcome of a "swatting" prank that has finally reached its inevitable awful conclusion. "Swatting" is a nasty prank where somebody calls 911 and tells police a violent crime or hostage situation is happening at somebody else's home. Police then show up with weapons to bear and end up terrifying an innocent party who is not doing anything at all. Often times the swatters use tech tools to conceal or change their number so that it appears to be local and credible.

Swatting pranks often have ties to the video gaming community, and that may well be the case here. Though, again, it's still too soon to say for sure, the Eagle reports that the prank may have originated as part of a dispute between Call of Duty gamers. Based on a Twitter fight, it appears one gamer may have given another gamer a false address, that of Finch's family, and that's where the police were sent. Finch's relatives told the Eagle that he didn't play video games, so if these facts are true, he wasn't even a party to this dispute.

http://reason.com/blog/2017/12/29/prank-swat-call-may-have-led-to-wichita

Again, it's not a racial problem, but a problem of poor government.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by veya_victaous on Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:56 am

or it the absolutely obvious thing. a GUN culture problem Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Re: SWATTING

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:07 am

What a Face

That cop who shot the homeowner failed, straight up...

Obviously he didn't bother to 'assess the situation first', before charging in like some ill-trained "cowboy" newbie..

If he survives the inevitable "investigation", he should be kicked out of their SWAT team, and demoted as far as he can go.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Cass on Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:34 am

Maddog wrote:Thursday night, Wichita, Kansas, Police sent out a SWAT team to respond to a 911 call that a man shot his father and was holding his family hostage in their home.

The telephone call was a lie. There was no hostage situation—but nevertheless a man at the home ended up dead, shot and killed by a police officer at his own front door.

Police right now are being tight-lipped about what actually happened at the home of the dead man, identified by relatives as Andrew Finch, 28, as the circumstances are still under investigation. Police did say they don't believe Finch fired on police officers before they shot him, according to the Wichita Eagle. His family says he was not armed.

It seems likely that this was the outcome of a "swatting" prank that has finally reached its inevitable awful conclusion. "Swatting" is a nasty prank where somebody calls 911 and tells police a violent crime or hostage situation is happening at somebody else's home. Police then show up with weapons to bear and end up terrifying an innocent party who is not doing anything at all. Often times the swatters use tech tools to conceal or change their number so that it appears to be local and credible.

Swatting pranks often have ties to the video gaming community, and that may well be the case here. Though, again, it's still too soon to say for sure, the Eagle reports that the prank may have originated as part of a dispute between Call of Duty gamers. Based on a Twitter fight, it appears one gamer may have given another gamer a false address, that of Finch's family, and that's where the police were sent. Finch's relatives told the Eagle that he didn't play video games, so if these facts are true, he wasn't even a party to this dispute.

http://reason.com/blog/2017/12/29/prank-swat-call-may-have-led-to-wichita

Again, it's not a racial problem, but a problem of poor government.

No it’s a problem of trigger happy assholes being hired by police forces and not given the proper training or vetting.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:38 am

veya_victaous wrote:or it the absolutely obvious thing. a GUN culture problem Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

I have plenty of guns. I manage to not shoot people. At least so far. Wink

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:13 am

Cass wrote:
Maddog wrote:Thursday night, Wichita, Kansas, Police sent out a SWAT team to respond to a 911 call that a man shot his father and was holding his family hostage in their home.

The telephone call was a lie. There was no hostage situation—but nevertheless a man at the home ended up dead, shot and killed by a police officer at his own front door.

Police right now are being tight-lipped about what actually happened at the home of the dead man, identified by relatives as Andrew Finch, 28, as the circumstances are still under investigation. Police did say they don't believe Finch fired on police officers before they shot him, according to the Wichita Eagle. His family says he was not armed.

It seems likely that this was the outcome of a "swatting" prank that has finally reached its inevitable awful conclusion. "Swatting" is a nasty prank where somebody calls 911 and tells police a violent crime or hostage situation is happening at somebody else's home. Police then show up with weapons to bear and end up terrifying an innocent party who is not doing anything at all. Often times the swatters use tech tools to conceal or change their number so that it appears to be local and credible.

Swatting pranks often have ties to the video gaming community, and that may well be the case here. Though, again, it's still too soon to say for sure, the Eagle reports that the prank may have originated as part of a dispute between Call of Duty gamers. Based on a Twitter fight, it appears one gamer may have given another gamer a false address, that of Finch's family, and that's where the police were sent. Finch's relatives told the Eagle that he didn't play video games, so if these facts are true, he wasn't even a party to this dispute.

http://reason.com/blog/2017/12/29/prank-swat-call-may-have-led-to-wichita

Again, it's not a racial problem, but a problem of poor government.

No it’s a problem of trigger happy assholes being hired by police forces and not given the proper training or vetting.

What entity hires these people?

Here's a hint. The same entity that hired the Redcoats at the Boston Massacre.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Cass on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:33 am

Maddog wrote:
Cass wrote:

No it’s a problem of trigger happy assholes being hired by police forces and not given the proper training or vetting.

What entity hires these people?

Here's a hint. The same entity that hired the Redcoats at the Boston Massacre.  


Hahahahahaha. Yeah ok. Police aren’t federal but state, city or county employees.

The redcoats were not hired. They were part of the British ruling class at the time. The British also hired Hessians.

I have no idea what you’re on about.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Cass on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:35 am

Here’s some light reading

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/related/massacre.html

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Re: SWATTING

Post by smelly-bandit on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:43 am

veya_victaous wrote:or it the absolutely obvious thing. a GUN culture problem Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Lol

I love how most of you lot on here suffer from intellectual tourettes

Instead of swearing you scream out things like "gun culture problem" and "not my president"

Most amusing

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Re: SWATTING

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:42 am

smelly-bandit wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:or it the absolutely obvious thing. a GUN culture problem Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Lol

I love how most of you lot on here suffer from intellectual tourettes

Instead of swearing you scream out things like "gun culture problem" and "not my president"

Most amusing
Rolling Eyes

You're an idiot...

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Re: SWATTING

Post by smelly-bandit on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:35 am

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

Lol

I love how most of you lot on here suffer from intellectual tourettes

Instead of swearing you scream out things like "gun culture problem" and "not my president"

Most amusing
Rolling Eyes

You're an idiot...

You have tourettes

I understand

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:57 pm

Cass wrote:
Maddog wrote:

What entity hires these people?

Here's a hint. The same entity that hired the Redcoats at the Boston Massacre.  


Hahahahahaha. Yeah ok. Police aren’t federal but state, city or county employees.

The redcoats were not hired. They were part of the British ruling class at the time. The British also hired Hessians.

I have no idea what you’re on about.

The entity would be government. The same one so many people now worship as their savior. Wink

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:09 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:What a Face

That cop who shot the homeowner failed, straight up...

Obviously he didn't bother to 'assess the situation first',  before charging in like some ill-trained "cowboy" newbie..

If he survives the inevitable "investigation", he should be kicked out of their SWAT team, and demoted as far as he can go.

Fear not! He's being given a paid vacation as we speak.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Cass on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:11 pm

Maddog wrote:
Cass wrote:


Hahahahahaha. Yeah ok. Police aren’t federal but state, city or county employees.

The redcoats were not hired. They were part of the British ruling class at the time. The British also hired Hessians.

I have no idea what you’re on about.

The entity would be government.  The same one so many people now worship as their savior.  Wink

No. That was the British government not the American as it didn’t exist at the time, and and again the Redcoats were the British Army, not the police, although they were used as both a protective and proactive defense force at the time.

I don’t worship government. But I’m realistic in realizing and accepting that we need it in order to function in a civilized society.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:22 pm

Cass wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The entity would be government.  The same one so many people now worship as their savior.  Wink

No. That was the British government not the American as it didn’t exist at the time, and and again the Redcoats were the British Army, not the police, although they were used as both a protective and proactive defense force at the time.

I don’t worship government. But I’m realistic in realizing and accepting that we need it in order to function in a civilized society.

I know which government it was. That's not really relevant to me.

And I agree we need very limited government. If we had that, representatives of the government wouldn't be murdering people on their porches.


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Re: SWATTING

Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:28 pm

His gestalt is less government, so all roads lead there.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:47 pm

Original Quill wrote:His gestalt is less government, so all roads lead there.

Pretty much. It's the concept this country was founded on. Wink

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Re: SWATTING

Post by eddie on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:49 pm

Maddog wrote:
Cass wrote:
Maddog wrote:

What entity hires these people?

Here's a hint. The same entity that hired the Redcoats at the Boston Massacre.  


Hahahahahaha. Yeah ok. Police aren’t federal but state, city or county employees.

The redcoats were not hired. They were part of the British ruling class at the time. The British also hired Hessians.

I have no idea what you’re on about.

The entity would be government.  The same one so many people now worship as their savior.  Wink


I knew what you meant.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:50 pm

"There are two potential violators of man’s rights: the criminals and the government. The great achievement of the United States was to draw a distinction between these two — by forbidding to the second the legalized version of the activities of the first."

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:52 pm

eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The entity would be government.  The same one so many people now worship as their savior.  Wink


I knew what you meant.

That's probably not something you should be bragging about. Wink

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:45 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:His gestalt is less government, so all roads lead there.

Pretty much.  It's the concept this country was founded on.  Wink
 

Actually, not. The US Constitution, by its very existence, stands opposed to extreme libertarianism. Evidence is in the fact that when it was all written up, no less than Thomas Jefferson of Virginia felt the need to come up with a Bill of Rights (first ten amendments), protecting individuals from the monster the Constitution creates. Libertarianism, if it ever had its day, was in the Articles of Confederation, which were unworkable.

I think there is a lot of sympathy for libertarianism in the US--as there is for States' Rights, its competitor theory--but if the State of Nature were preferable, people would opt for that.

All forms of unrestricted freedom (or laissez-faire endeavors) ultimately turn into their opposite: the free market ultimately turns into monopoly; the political State of Nature ultimately turns into despotism. This is because ultimate freedom is unstable. In Hobbesian terms, the State of Nature becomes the State of War. Individuals compete, and when it's all said and done, only one person is left standing. He becomes the despot.

I think civil government came about as a result of this dilemma--certainly democracy did. People reckoned that it was better to plan a government, than let an autocracy develop of its own accord. In fact, a little trial and error proved that.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by eddie on Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:22 pm

Maddog wrote:
eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

The entity would be government.  The same one so many people now worship as their savior.  Wink


I knew what you meant.

That's probably not something you should be bragging about.  Wink

Ah it's okay. No one round here takes me seriously anyway. I'm whackadoodle.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:02 pm

eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

That's probably not something you should be bragging about.  Wink

Ah it's okay. No one round here takes me seriously anyway. I'm whackadoodle.

But a very, very cute whackadoodle.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by eddie on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:21 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

That's probably not something you should be bragging about.  Wink

Ah it's okay. No one round here takes me seriously anyway. I'm whackadoodle.

But a very, very cute whackadoodle.

Why thank you...I think? Razz

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:03 pm

yw...

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:54 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Pretty much.  It's the concept this country was founded on.  Wink
 

Actually, not.  The US Constitution, by its very existence, stands opposed to extreme libertarianism.  Evidence is in the fact that when it was all written up, no less than Thomas Jefferson of Virginia felt the need to come up with a Bill of Rights (first ten amendments), protecting individuals from the monster the Constitution creates.  Libertarianism, if it ever had its day, was in the Articles of Confederation, which were unworkable.

I think there is a lot of sympathy for libertarianism in the US--as there is for States' Rights, its competitor theory--but if the State of Nature were preferable, people would opt for that.

All forms of unrestricted freedom (or laissez-faire endeavors) ultimately turn into their opposite: the free market ultimately turns into monopoly; the political State of Nature ultimately turns into despotism.  This is because ultimate freedom is unstable.  In Hobbesian terms, the State of Nature becomes the State of War.  Individuals compete, and when it's all said and done, only one person is left standing.  He becomes the despot.

I think civil government came about as a result of this dilemma--certainly democracy did. People reckoned that it was better to plan a government, than let an autocracy develop of its own accord.  In fact, a little trial and error proved that.

Call it classical liberalism then. Contemporary liberals have co-opted the word, which is why most classical liberals like myself use the word libertarian.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:55 pm

eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

That's probably not something you should be bragging about.  Wink

Ah it's okay. No one round here takes me seriously anyway. I'm whackadoodle.

You make far more sense than the hypocrites on each side of the aisle around here.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Jules on Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:08 pm

Expensive prank!!! No

The last hoax that led to a death was when a woman from an Oz radio station called a hospital, pretending to be the Queen. The innocent nurse who got duped was a proud woman and she took her own life.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by eddie on Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:37 am

Maddog wrote:
eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

That's probably not something you should be bragging about.  Wink

Ah it's okay. No one round here takes me seriously anyway. I'm whackadoodle.

You make far more sense than the hypocrites on each side of the aisle around here.  

Hmmm well to be honest I don't know a lot about the intricacies of politics - UK or US - but I do like reading the debates.

I sort of think what I think and kind of go with that really.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by veya_victaous on Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:40 am

Maddog wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:or it the absolutely obvious thing. a GUN culture problem Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

I have plenty of guns.  I manage to not shoot people. At least so far.  Wink

But since you and every one else has guns the Cops have a greater threat to their lives, therefore tend to be more trigger happy.

Gun Culture means police officer are put in a situation of shoot or be shot, which is going to mean that sometimes the shoot an unarmed person they though was a threat since so much of the population is armed, it is fair to assume an American civilian is armed and for police to respond with increased force.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Original Quill on Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:51 am

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Actually, not.  The US Constitution, by its very existence, stands opposed to extreme libertarianism.  Evidence is in the fact that when it was all written up, no less than Thomas Jefferson of Virginia felt the need to come up with a Bill of Rights (first ten amendments), protecting individuals from the monster the Constitution creates.  Libertarianism, if it ever had its day, was in the Articles of Confederation, which were unworkable.

I think there is a lot of sympathy for libertarianism in the US--as there is for States' Rights, its competitor theory--but if the State of Nature were preferable, people would opt for that.

All forms of unrestricted freedom (or laissez-faire endeavors) ultimately turn into their opposite: the free market ultimately turns into monopoly; the political State of Nature ultimately turns into despotism.  This is because ultimate freedom is unstable.  In Hobbesian terms, the State of Nature becomes the State of War.  Individuals compete, and when it's all said and done, only one person is left standing.  He becomes the despot.

I think civil government came about as a result of this dilemma--certainly democracy did. People reckoned that it was better to plan a government, than let an autocracy develop of its own accord.  In fact, a little trial and error proved that.

Call it classical liberalism then. Contemporary liberals have co-opted the word, which is why most classical liberals like myself use the word libertarian.  

It doesn't matter what you call it. It doesn't work. The notion of freedom, be it economics or politics, is an unstable condition, which ultimately results in it's opposite.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Cass on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:19 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I have plenty of guns.  I manage to not shoot people. At least so far.  Wink

But since you and every one else has guns the Cops have a greater threat to their lives, therefore tend to be more trigger happy.

Gun Culture means police officer are put in a situation of shoot or be shot, which is going to mean that sometimes the shoot an unarmed person they though was a threat since so much of the population is armed, it is fair to assume an American civilian is armed and for police to respond with increased force.

Well put. Thank you. alien

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Re: SWATTING

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:24 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Actually, not.  The US Constitution, by its very existence, stands opposed to extreme libertarianism.  Evidence is in the fact that when it was all written up, no less than Thomas Jefferson of Virginia felt the need to come up with a Bill of Rights (first ten amendments), protecting individuals from the monster the Constitution creates.  Libertarianism, if it ever had its day, was in the Articles of Confederation, which were unworkable.

I think there is a lot of sympathy for libertarianism in the US--as there is for States' Rights, its competitor theory--but if the State of Nature were preferable, people would opt for that.

All forms of unrestricted freedom (or laissez-faire endeavors) ultimately turn into their opposite: the free market ultimately turns into monopoly; the political State of Nature ultimately turns into despotism.  This is because ultimate freedom is unstable.  In Hobbesian terms, the State of Nature becomes the State of War.  Individuals compete, and when it's all said and done, only one person is left standing.  He becomes the despot.

I think civil government came about as a result of this dilemma--certainly democracy did. People reckoned that it was better to plan a government, than let an autocracy develop of its own accord.  In fact, a little trial and error proved that.

Call it classical liberalism then. Contemporary liberals have co-opted the word, which is why most classical liberals like myself use the word libertarian.  

Rolling Eyes

You really do need to do your homework,  Maddog...

There is a wide chasm between "classical liberalism"  and "libertarianism"..
Mainly on issues of welfare, universal healthcare, and publicly-funded education  --  all of which genuine Libertarians are strongly opposed to, in principle.

If you want to see examples of "classical liberal" political parties in action, I suggest you look to the current mainstream conservative/centre-right parties in Canada, Australia and New Zealand, maybe even those in Germany and Japan to a lesser extent..

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Re: SWATTING

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:30 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Rolling Eyes

You're an idiot...

You have tourettes

I understand

Cool

And you have barrettes...

We all feel for you, SmellyCopterTank..

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Re: SWATTING

Post by smelly-bandit on Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:06 pm

Original Quill wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:What a Face

That cop who shot the homeowner failed, straight up...

Obviously he didn't bother to 'assess the situation first',  before charging in like some ill-trained "cowboy" newbie..

If he survives the inevitable "investigation", he should be kicked out of their SWAT team, and demoted as far as he can go.

Fear not!  He's being given a paid vacation as we speak.

Hey Quill what's your home address??


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Re: SWATTING

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:13 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Fear not!  He's being given a paid vacation as we speak.


Hey Quill what's your home address??

Idea

Hey Smelly',  what's your  I.Q.  ???

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Original Quill on Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:00 pm

Maddog wrote:Call it classical liberalism then. Contemporary liberals have co-opted the word, which is why most classical liberals like myself use the word libertarian.

The proper term is 'bourgeois liberal', the first class to evolve amid 18th- and 19th-century industrialism. They stressed their commitment to laissez-faire principles.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:15 pm

As Humpty Dumpty so famously said in Alice Through the Looking Glass: "When I use a word it means exactly what I choose it to mean; no more and no less."
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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:24 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Call it classical liberalism then. Contemporary liberals have co-opted the word, which is why most classical liberals like myself use the word libertarian.  

Rolling Eyes

You really do need to do your homework,  Maddog...

There is a wide chasm between "classical liberalism"  and "libertarianism"..
Mainly on issues of welfare, universal healthcare, and publicly-funded education  --  all of which genuine Libertarians are strongly opposed to, in principle.

If you want to see examples of "classical liberal" political parties in action, I suggest you look to the current mainstream conservative/centre-right parties in Canada, Australia and New Zealand, maybe even those in Germany and Japan to a lesser extent..

No need for me to do any homework. Jefferson was a classical liberal, while Justin Amash is often called a libertarian. Their political positions are fairly similar. Wink

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:28 pm

eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

You make far more sense than the hypocrites on each side of the aisle around here.  

Hmmm well to be honest I don't know a lot about the intricacies of politics - UK or US - but I do like reading the debates.

I sort of think what I think and kind of go with that really.

That's called be consistent. You support what you believe, instead of trying to support certain people or parties, who are anything but consistent.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by eddie on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:31 pm

Maddog wrote:
eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

You make far more sense than the hypocrites on each side of the aisle around here.  

Hmmm well to be honest I don't know a lot about the intricacies of politics - UK or US - but I do like reading the debates.

I sort of think what I think and kind of go with that really.

That's called be consistent. You support what you believe, instead of trying to support certain people or parties, who are anything but consistent.  

In a nutshell.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:45 pm

Maddog wrote:
WhoseYourWolfie wrote:
Rolling Eyes

You really do need to do your homework,  Maddog...

There is a wide chasm between "classical liberalism"  and "libertarianism"..
Mainly on issues of welfare, universal healthcare, and publicly-funded education  --  all of which genuine Libertarians are strongly opposed to, in principle.

If you want to see examples of "classical liberal" political parties in action, I suggest you look to the current mainstream conservative/centre-right parties in Canada, Australia and New Zealand, maybe even those in Germany and Japan to a lesser extent..

No need for me to do any homework.  Jefferson was a classical liberal, while Justin Amash is often called a libertarian.  Their political positions are fairly similar.  Wink

https://fee.org/articles/libertarianism-and-classical-liberalism-a-short-introduction/

A little education for the folks that think I need some education. Wink

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:47 pm

eddie wrote:
Maddog wrote:

That's called be consistent. You support what you believe, instead of trying to support certain people or parties, who are anything but consistent.  

In a nutshell.

It's refreshing. I didn't vote for Obama or Trump. But I can acknowledge when they do something I agree with.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Original Quill on Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:45 pm

FEE wrote:Libertarianism and Classical Liberalism: A Short Introduction

by Daniel B. Klein

Many people have tried to define the term "liberal" with an mind toward eliminating the contradictions. Usually, they are doing so while interjecting some bias or other of their own.

I find that to eliminate such biases, it is better to use the classic word-use of history. It incorporates the beliefs that people of history had, as they were inventing the terms. The term "bourgeois" or "bourgeois liberal" is the term that was used to describe the common man or middle class of the late 18th-century onward.

Merriam Webster wrote:Definition of bourgeois
1 : of, relating to, or characteristic of the social middle class

The history of modern industrialism is best understood, I find, from the perspective of the history of socialism, since industrialism has gone from the bourgeois liberal to the latest socialism movements.

Not that you have to be a socialist, but you at least have to include each stage of the historic progression, along the way. It does no good to understand terms without understanding the full panoply of their development. I use the German master: Geo Lichtheim, The Origins of Socialism (1969).

One comment about your Professor Daniel Klein: he teaches at George Mason University, the conservative off-shoot of the University of Virginia. George Mason University is heavily funded by the Koch Brothers.

For some perspective on the origins of George Mason University, and the efforts of the Koch Bros. to promote their ideas, see Nancy MacLean, Democracy in Chains (2017).

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:55 pm

Original Quill wrote:
FEE wrote:Libertarianism and Classical Liberalism: A Short Introduction

by  Daniel B. Klein

Many people have tried to define the term "liberal" with an mind toward eliminating the contradictions.  Usually, they are doing so while interjecting some bias or other of their own.

I find that to eliminate such biases, it is better to use the classic word-use of history.  It incorporates the beliefs that people of history had, as they were inventing the terms.  The term "bourgeois" or "bourgeois liberal" is the term that was used to describe the common man or middle class of the late 18th-century onward.

Merriam Webster wrote:Definition of bourgeois
1 : of, relating to, or characteristic of the social middle class

The history of modern industrialism is best understood, I find, from the perspective of the history of socialism, since industrialism has gone from the bourgeois liberal to the latest socialism movements.  

Not that you have to be a socialist, but you at least have to include each stage of the historic progression, along the way.  It does no good to understand terms without understanding the full panoply of their development.  I use the German master: Geo Lichtheim, The Origins of Socialism (1969).

One comment about your Professor Daniel Klein: he teaches at George Mason University, the conservative off-shoot of the University of Virginia.  George Mason University is heavily funded by the Koch Brothers.

For some perspective on the origins of George Mason University, and the efforts of the Koch Bros. to promote their ideas, see Nancy MacLean, Democracy in Chains (2017).

I find you are full of shit. Perhaps you should have read the link I posted instead of babbling like an idiot.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:47 am



It's your article that is "full of shit" here, Maddog...

Basically, what you have dug up there is a load of self-effacing tripe, from a far-right wing 'free market' academic/lobbyist, pushing a low-government-spending agenda while completely trying to rewrite the definition of "classical liberalism" to serve his own ends..

Following his suggestions, you would inevitably end up with :

No publicly-funded education
All schools and colleges privatised
No public hospitals
No public health services
No regulations over food, farming, medicines
No workplace safety or conditions regulations
No minimum wage, no 'collective' wage bargaining
No welfare --  depend solely on other people's "charity"
No aged pensions
"User pays" police, ambulance and fire services
A much smaller and tighter 'Defence' force


Welcome to the "Dog eat dog" world of "laissez faire" corporatist capitalism,  as envisioned in Maddog's libertarian utopia..

(No real surprise, then, to find that the author of that article is employed by an oil-and-mining corporations funded private 'university'..).

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Original Quill on Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:49 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Many people have tried to define the term "liberal" with an mind toward eliminating the contradictions.  Usually, they are doing so while interjecting some bias or other of their own.

I find that to eliminate such biases, it is better to use the classic word-use of history.  It incorporates the beliefs that people of history had, as they were inventing the terms.  The term "bourgeois" or "bourgeois liberal" is the term that was used to describe the common man or middle class of the late 18th-century onward.



The history of modern industrialism is best understood, I find, from the perspective of the history of socialism, since industrialism has gone from the bourgeois liberal to the latest socialism movements.  

Not that you have to be a socialist, but you at least have to include each stage of the historic progression, along the way.  It does no good to understand terms without understanding the full panoply of their development.  I use the German master: Geo Lichtheim, The Origins of Socialism (1969).

One comment about your Professor Daniel Klein: he teaches at George Mason University, the conservative off-shoot of the University of Virginia.  George Mason University is heavily funded by the Koch Brothers.

For some perspective on the origins of George Mason University, and the efforts of the Koch Bros. to promote their ideas, see Nancy MacLean, Democracy in Chains (2017).

I find you are full of shit. Perhaps you should have read the link I posted instead of babbling like an idiot.  

Yet, you are motivated to respond.

Have you ever considered that you are intellectually lazy? That's why you have no content, yet you are still angry. So, you lash out at the interlocutor.

It's curable, you know. It's not like a low IQ. You just have to go to work on it.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:06 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

I find you are full of shit. Perhaps you should have read the link I posted instead of babbling like an idiot.  

Yet, you are motivated to respond.

Have you ever considered that you are intellectually lazy?  That's why you have no content, yet you are still angry.  So, you lash out at the interlocutor.

It's curable, you know.  It's not like a low IQ.  You just have to go to work on it.

Nope, what I have found is that I try to say something relevant. You just like to type nonsense. I post a link, and your response shows that you didn't even read it. You just wanted to ramble, feigning some sort of knowledge on the subject.

The article clearly explains the similarities between classic liberalism and libertarianism. Your comment mentions neither.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Original Quill on Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:49 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Yet, you are motivated to respond.

Have you ever considered that you are intellectually lazy?  That's why you have no content, yet you are still angry.  So, you lash out at the interlocutor.

It's curable, you know.  It's not like a low IQ.  You just have to go to work on it.

Nope, what I have found is that I try to say something relevant. You just like to type nonsense. I post a link, and your response shows that you didn't even read it.  You just wanted to ramble, feigning some sort of knowledge on the subject.  

The article clearly explains the similarities between classic liberalism and libertarianism.  Your comment mentions neither.  

The article is a product of a shill for the Koch Bros. We don't need any rewriting of the language. If you had attended school in the first place, you would already know the meaning of the terms.

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Re: SWATTING

Post by Maddog on Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:56 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Nope, what I have found is that I try to say something relevant. You just like to type nonsense. I post a link, and your response shows that you didn't even read it.  You just wanted to ramble, feigning some sort of knowledge on the subject.  

The article clearly explains the similarities between classic liberalism and libertarianism.  Your comment mentions neither.  

The article is a product of a shill for the Koch Bros.  We don't need any rewriting of the language.  If you had attended school in the first place, you would already know the meaning of the terms.

Ok, then just say the article doesn't matter and what you have to say does. Wink

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