Trump lied again.

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Trump lied again.

Post by Maddog on Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:01 pm

Failing Cheeto-Faced Ferret-Wearing Shit Gibbon sent 26 percent fewer Mexicans back home this year through November than Barack Obama did in the same period in 2016, despite vows to crack down on illegal immigration, Mexican government data show.


About 152,000 Mexican nationals were repatriated from the U.S. between January and November, according to data from Mexico’s Interior Ministry that were first reported by Milenio newspaper. That compares with just under 205,000 in the first 11 months of 2016.


Trump, who took office Jan. 20, has vowed to expel potentially millions of undocumented immigrants and to build a wall along the Mexican border. He also ended, at least temporarily, Obama-era protections against deportation of people who were brought to the U.S. illegally as children. Officials at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement pointed to their statistics when asked for comment.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-27/trump-sends-fewer-mexicans-back-home-despite-deportation-talk

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by eddie on Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:21 pm

Why did Obama send home Mexicans?

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Lurker on Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:53 pm

If Trump's ugly mouth is moving, he's lying.....

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by smelly-bandit on Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:14 pm

Trumps the biggest liar going

He promised he would lock crooked Hillary up in the big house

The bitch geranium is still walking free.

Time for trump to make good on his word

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by smelly-bandit on Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:16 pm

eddie wrote:Why did Obama send home Mexicans?


Is this like a joke??

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Maddog on Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:38 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
eddie wrote:Why did Obama send home Mexicans?


Is this like a joke??

Maybe to see why the chicken crossed the Rio Grande? Cool

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:02 am

smelly-bandit wrote:Trumps the biggest liar going

He promised he would lock crooked Hillary up in the big house

The bitch geranium is still walking free.

Time for trump to make good on his word



The USA isn't 1970s Apartheid Sarf Arfrika, SmellyNoFriends...

You can't simply lock someone away without charging them with something first -- and then you need to convict them, to keep them there..

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Original Quill on Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:15 am

Or, send them to Guantanamo.  Easy-peasy, no charges, no convictions.  Just an infinity in the gorgeous Caribbean sun.

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:27 am

Lurker wrote:If Trump's ugly mouth is moving, he's lying.....

If any politician's mouth is moving, he or she is lying...

During my years as a newspaper and radio journalist I interviewed politicians ranging from parish councillors to prime ministers, and I always kept one question running silently in the back of my mind..."why is this bastard lying to me?"

Of course in your country, among the most famous - or perhaps one should say infamous - lies was "...I never had sexual relations with that woman."

Clinton, wasn't it? Democrat, wasn't he?

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Original Quill on Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:55 pm

Fred M. wrote:If any politician's mouth is moving, he or she is lying...

Some more than others, Fred. Politics is about power and resources, divided among interests. Conservatives represent special interests, while progressives seek to serve all interests.

Now this poses a problem for conservatives because the currency of politics is votes, not money. Because the number of millionaires are limited, conservatives must seek votes elsewhere. The dilemma is, how to get votes from people whose interests you clearly do not serve.

The answer: you lie. Conservatives, by their very nature, have to incorporate deception into their stratagems.

Now, Trump has adopted the Madison Avenue approach to lying. Truth, for him, is whatever needs to be said to make a sale. With truth so flexible, it's no surprise that he collects lies at the rate of 5 per day.

But despite his extraordinary magnitude of lying, Trump is still primarily motivated by his position toward the vote. He must hide the fact that he's working against the general interest.

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Maddog on Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:48 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Fred M. wrote:If any politician's mouth is moving, he or she is lying...

Some more than others, Fred.  Politics is about power and resources, divided among interests.  Conservatives represent special interests, while progressives seek to serve all interests.

Now this poses a problem for conservatives because the currency of politics is votes, not money.  Because the number of millionaires are limited, conservatives must seek votes elsewhere.  The dilemma is, how to get votes from people whose interests you clearly do not serve.

The answer: you lie.  Conservatives, by their very nature, have to incorporate deception into their stratagems.

Now, Trump has adopted the Madison Avenue approach to lying.  Truth, for him, is whatever needs to be said to make a sale.  With truth so flexible, it's no surprise that he collects lies at the rate of 5 per day.

But despite his extraordinary magnitude of lying, Trump is still primarily motivated by his position toward the vote.  He must hide the fact that he's working against the general interest.

There is not a shred of evidence that suggests people in one party lie more than another.

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by smelly-bandit on Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:47 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Fred M. wrote:If any politician's mouth is moving, he or she is lying...

Some more than others, Fred.  Politics is about power and resources, divided among interests.  Conservatives represent special interests, while progressives seek to serve all interests.

Now this poses a problem for conservatives because the currency of politics is votes, not money.  Because the number of millionaires are limited, conservatives must seek votes elsewhere.  The dilemma is, how to get votes from people whose interests you clearly do not serve.

The answer: you lie.  Conservatives, by their very nature, have to incorporate deception into their stratagems.

Now, Trump has adopted the Madison Avenue approach to lying.  Truth, for him, is whatever needs to be said to make a sale.  With truth so flexible, it's no surprise that he collects lies at the rate of 5 per day.

But despite his extraordinary magnitude of lying, Trump is still primarily motivated by his position toward the vote.  He must hide the fact that he's working against the general interest.

hows the impeachment going??

you calmed down yet??

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:37 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Fred M. wrote:If any politician's mouth is moving, he or she is lying...

Some more than others, Fred.  Politics is about power and resources, divided among interests.  Conservatives represent special interests, while progressives seek to serve all interests.

Now this poses a problem for conservatives because the currency of politics is votes, not money.  Because the number of millionaires are limited, conservatives must seek votes elsewhere.  The dilemma is, how to get votes from people whose interests you clearly do not serve.

The answer: you lie.  Conservatives, by their very nature, have to incorporate deception into their stratagems.

Now, Trump has adopted the Madison Avenue approach to lying.  Truth, for him, is whatever needs to be said to make a sale.  With truth so flexible, it's no surprise that he collects lies at the rate of 5 per day.

But despite his extraordinary magnitude of lying, Trump is still primarily motivated by his position toward the vote.  He must hide the fact that he's working against the general interest.

Clearly, Quill, I cannot speak about US politics because I have neither the experience nor the knowledge to do so. That is your remit.

But in my own real experience of UK politics, I know that the Conservative John Major - for all his faults and failings - was one of the most honest of politicians that I personally interviewed and that the Labour, and supposedly Leftist and Socialist, Blair was one of the most dishonest.

Personality had little to do with it: Major struck me as being a cold fish; the "grey man" that the UK media so often portrayed. Blair was likeable,"with it" and, on the face of it, the sort of politician that was needed by the country at the time.

But, in fact, his mendacity led directly to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

As a journalist I believe that I did pretty well in maintaining an apolitical stance throughout my career. But once freed of the shackles of professionalism I have come to realise that the Left, and in particular that Marxist bastard Corbyn and his thuggish Momentum paymasters, pose the greatest threat to my country that it has known since 1945.
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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:47 am

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Some more than others, Fred.  Politics is about power and resources, divided among interests.  Conservatives represent special interests, while progressives seek to serve all interests.

Now this poses a problem for conservatives because the currency of politics is votes, not money.  Because the number of millionaires are limited, conservatives must seek votes elsewhere.  The dilemma is, how to get votes from people whose interests you clearly do not serve.

The answer: you lie.  Conservatives, by their very nature, have to incorporate deception into their stratagems.

Now, Trump has adopted the Madison Avenue approach to lying.  Truth, for him, is whatever needs to be said to make a sale.  With truth so flexible, it's no surprise that he collects lies at the rate of 5 per day.

But despite his extraordinary magnitude of lying, Trump is still primarily motivated by his position toward the vote.  He must hide the fact that he's working against the general interest.

Clearly, Quill, I cannot speak about US politics because I have neither the experience nor the knowledge to do so. That is your remit.

But in my own real experience of UK politics, I know that the Conservative John Major - for all his faults and failings - was one of the most honest of politicians that I personally interviewed and that the Labour, and supposedly Leftist and Socialist, Blair was one of the most dishonest.

Personality had little to do with it: Major struck me as being a cold fish; the "grey man" that the UK media so often portrayed. Blair was likeable,"with it" and, on the face of it, the sort of politician that was needed by the country at the time.

But, in fact, his mendacity led directly to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

As a journalist I believe that I did pretty well in maintaining an apolitical stance throughout my career. But once freed of the shackles of professionalism I have come to realise that the Left, and in particular that Marxist bastard Corbyn and his thuggish Momentum paymasters, pose the greatest threat to my country that it has known since 1945.

Fred, you have to look at the motives.  Conservatives serve the interests of the special interests.  Liberals serve the interests of the general public.

Once you understand their motives, all of their ideology falls into lock-step. John Major might have been the most genuine of politicians, but he comes from a framework of special interests. How can that arena but cast the questions that beg answers that favour the wealthy and privileged?

There's a general theory here, but you started out by asking about politicians and lying.  All that I am adding to your thesis is, who has the incentive to lie?  Obviously the people who work against the public interest, have an uphill battle to get the votes.  They get around this, by lying.  It's quite simple.

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Cass on Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:46 am

Maybe it should be news when he HASN’T lied.

I won’t hold my breath though...

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Miffs2 on Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:54 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Some more than others, Fred.  Politics is about power and resources, divided among interests.  Conservatives represent special interests, while progressives seek to serve all interests.

Now this poses a problem for conservatives because the currency of politics is votes, not money.  Because the number of millionaires are limited, conservatives must seek votes elsewhere.  The dilemma is, how to get votes from people whose interests you clearly do not serve.

The answer: you lie.  Conservatives, by their very nature, have to incorporate deception into their stratagems.

Now, Trump has adopted the Madison Avenue approach to lying.  Truth, for him, is whatever needs to be said to make a sale.  With truth so flexible, it's no surprise that he collects lies at the rate of 5 per day.

But despite his extraordinary magnitude of lying, Trump is still primarily motivated by his position toward the vote.  He must hide the fact that he's working against the general interest.

Clearly, Quill, I cannot speak about US politics because I have neither the experience nor the knowledge to do so. That is your remit.

But in my own real experience of UK politics, I know that the Conservative John Major - for all his faults and failings - was one of the most honest of politicians that I personally interviewed and that the Labour, and supposedly Leftist and Socialist, Blair was one of the most dishonest.

Personality had little to do with it: Major struck me as being a cold fish; the "grey man" that the UK media so often portrayed. Blair was likeable,"with it" and, on the face of it, the sort of politician that was needed by the country at the time.

But, in fact, his mendacity led directly to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

As a journalist I believe that I did pretty well in maintaining an apolitical stance throughout my career. But once freed of the shackles of professionalism I have come to realise that the Left, and in particular that Marxist bastard Corbyn and his thuggish Momentum paymasters, pose the greatest threat to my country that it has known since 1945.

Just read your comment and want to ask, re your last paragraph, strong words so can I ask why you think Momentum and Corbyn pose such a threat?
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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:33 pm

Miffs2 wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Clearly, Quill, I cannot speak about US politics because I have neither the experience nor the knowledge to do so. That is your remit.

But in my own real experience of UK politics, I know that the Conservative John Major - for all his faults and failings - was one of the most honest of politicians that I personally interviewed and that the Labour, and supposedly Leftist and Socialist, Blair was one of the most dishonest.

Personality had little to do with it: Major struck me as being a cold fish; the "grey man" that the UK media so often portrayed. Blair was likeable,"with it" and, on the face of it, the sort of politician that was needed by the country at the time.

But, in fact, his mendacity led directly to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

As a journalist I believe that I did pretty well in maintaining an apolitical stance throughout my career. But once freed of the shackles of professionalism I have come to realise that the Left, and in particular that Marxist bastard Corbyn and his thuggish Momentum paymasters, pose the greatest threat to my country that it has known since 1945.

Just read your comment and want to ask, re your last paragraph, strong words so can I ask why you think Momentum and Corbyn pose such a threat?

Three words: Total economic collapse.

The formation of a government led by Corbyn, and particularly with John McDonnell as Chancellor, would cause an immediate run on the pound and the three highly influential credit ratings agencies - S&P, Fitch and Moody's - would reduce their UK ratings by far, far more than the relatively minor cuts that we have seen since 2016.

That, in turn, would make government borrowing on the international money markets extremely difficult, if not damn near impossible, because the major unions, who are the paymasters of the Labour party, would demand their Danegeld in the form of massively unaffordable public spending; huge increases in public sector jobs;  the legal right to unfettered collective bargaining in the workplace backed up by wildcat strikes and intimidatory mass picketing and the punitive taxation of the sort of entrepreneurial wealth and job creators this country cannot afford to lose.

In other words a perfect economic storm leading to an inevitable default.

Just my opinion, of course, but it's how I predict things would pan out either, whether Corbyn got the keys to No. 10 as a result of a "no confidence" issue defeat of the present administration (possible) or an outright general election victory (unlikely).
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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Original Quill on Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:45 pm

Cass wrote:Maybe it should be news when he HASN’T lied.

I won’t hold my breath though...

Trump? That dear boy, bless his soul, wouldn't know truth if it hit him (which it will occasionally). He is in the early stages of cognitive decline.

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by smelly-bandit on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:24 pm

Miffs2 wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Clearly, Quill, I cannot speak about US politics because I have neither the experience nor the knowledge to do so. That is your remit.

But in my own real experience of UK politics, I know that the Conservative John Major - for all his faults and failings - was one of the most honest of politicians that I personally interviewed and that the Labour, and supposedly Leftist and Socialist, Blair was one of the most dishonest.

Personality had little to do with it: Major struck me as being a cold fish; the "grey man" that the UK media so often portrayed. Blair was likeable,"with it" and, on the face of it, the sort of politician that was needed by the country at the time.

But, in fact, his mendacity led directly to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.

As a journalist I believe that I did pretty well in maintaining an apolitical stance throughout my career. But once freed of the shackles of professionalism I have come to realise that the Left, and in particular that Marxist bastard Corbyn and his thuggish Momentum paymasters, pose the greatest threat to my country that it has known since 1945.

Just read your comment and want to ask, re your last paragraph, strong words so can I ask why you think Momentum and Corbyn pose such a threat?

Pretty much what Fred said but I'd also add that corbyn plans to wage war on the financial services as part of his purge of "the rich"

The UK doesn't produce goods as such but it does provide a service in the form of finances with a lot of big banks based in London.

Those services replace our lost manufacturing capabilities and provided the bulk of the UK economic income.

If Corbyn goes to war with them and taxes them to the hilt, the banks will simply up sticks and move abroad to friendlier  countries

They will also take with them their workforce.

With Corbyn power borrowing would be impossible, which means he has to find the income to pay for blood money from other sources.

That means taxing the shit out of every man and his dog, but his biggest tax payers the banks and the high earners would have buggered off, so he would have to raise taxes on ordinary people who fall well short of his criteria for being rich.

Corbyn hates business and industry, he despises capitalism so the money he raises from taxing everyone won't be going on investment in business or rebuilding our manufacturing base to generate growth and get the economy going.

It will be getting spent on shit like, nationalising the railway, and making sure the benefits system is fully stocked up.

Crazy socialist pipe dreams that have ruined every single country they have been implemented in.

Basically he will spend the taxes on luxuries whilst the bills get bigger and bigger.

Corbyn would have to resort to quantitive easing which mean printing money,which would only serve to devalue the pound even more.

With our financial services in ruin and no way of generating real economic growth, the pound worthless, the cost of our imports would be eye watering and simple things like bread and milk will cost a month's wages

our ability to repay our debts would slowly but surely degrade,and eventually the interest alone would simply become unpayable.

When that happens we enter a Greece scenario where we simply can't meet our financial obligations, and when that happens we be fucked.

Every seen the TV show "can't pay we'll take it away" that's pretty much what happens, the banks the UK borrows money from will send in its heavies and start selling everything the UK owes to the highest bidder.

So Corbyn newly nationalisiled  railway will be sold off straight away to whatever foreign investor will buy it.

The NHS?? Carved up and sold to foreign  health insurance companies.

Whatever is left of Royal mail?? Gone

Basically every single service or property the UK has left that has "national" somewhere in its description will be stripped down and flogged off.

And the money won't go into the UK economy for investment, it will be sold to foreign investors to pay off our debts.

And your taxes will STILL be sky high and so will the debt.

If you think austerity was bad under the tories, hold onto your hat you wait till you see austerity as a result of corbyn

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Miffs2 on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:36 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Miffs2 wrote:

Just read your comment and want to ask, re your last paragraph, strong words so can I ask why you think Momentum and Corbyn pose such a threat?

Three words: Total economic collapse.

The formation of a government led by Corbyn, and particularly with John McDonnell as Chancellor, would cause an immediate run on the pound and the three highly influential credit ratings agencies - S&P, Fitch and Moody's - would reduce their UK ratings by far, far more than the relatively minor cuts that we have seen since 2016.

That, in turn, would make government borrowing on the international money markets extremely difficult, if not damn near impossible, because the major unions, who are the paymasters of the Labour party, would demand their Danegeld in the form of massively unaffordable public spending; huge increases in public sector jobs;  the legal right to unfettered collective bargaining in the workplace backed up by wildcat strikes and intimidatory mass picketing and the punitive taxation of the sort of entrepreneurial wealth and job creators this country cannot afford to lose.

In other words a perfect economic storm leading to an inevitable default.

Just my opinion, of course, but it's how I predict things would pan out either, whether Corbyn got the keys to No. 10 as a result of a "no confidence" issue defeat of the present administration (possible) or an outright general election victory (unlikely).

Thanks Fred. At one time I would have said Corbyn would never PM, but we live in a mad world so who knows. I can't be doing with Conservative blame the poor and sick politics but living in the heart of A Labour stronghold, I can be careful what you wish for. That said, momentum is building a huge following and the Tories are all over the shop. pale
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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Miffs2 on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:46 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
Miffs2 wrote:

Just read your comment and want to ask, re your last paragraph, strong words so can I ask why you think Momentum and Corbyn pose such a threat?

Pretty much what Fred said but I'd also add that corbyn plans to wage war on the financial services as part of his purge of "the rich"

The UK doesn't produce goods as such but it does provide a service in the form of finances with a lot of big banks based in London.

Those services replace our lost manufacturing capabilities and provided the bulk of the UK economic income.

If Corbyn goes to war with them and taxes them to the hilt, the banks will simply up sticks and move abroad to friendlier  countries

They will also take with them their workforce.

With Corbyn power borrowing would be impossible, which means he has to find the income to pay for blood money from other sources.

That means taxing the shit out of every man and his dog, but his biggest tax payers the banks and the high earners would have buggered off, so he would have to raise taxes on ordinary people who fall well short of his criteria for being rich.

Corbyn hates business and industry, he despises capitalism so the money he raises from taxing everyone won't be going on investment in business or rebuilding our manufacturing base to generate growth and get the economy going.

It will be getting spent on shit like, nationalising the railway, and making sure the benefits system is fully stocked up.

Crazy socialist pipe dreams that have ruined every single country they have been implemented in.

Basically he will spend the taxes on luxuries whilst the bills get bigger and bigger.

Corbyn would have to resort to quantitive easing which mean printing money,which would only serve to devalue the pound even more.

With our financial services in ruin and no way of generating real economic growth, the pound worthless, the cost of our imports would be eye watering and simple things like bread and milk will cost a month's wages

our ability to repay our debts would slowly but surely degrade,and eventually the interest alone would simply become unpayable.

When that happens we enter a Greece scenario where we simply can't meet our financial obligations, and when that happens we be fucked.

Every seen the TV show "can't pay we'll take it away" that's pretty much what happens, the banks the UK borrows money from will send in its heavies and start selling everything the UK owes to the highest bidder.

So Corbyn newly nationalisiled  railway will be sold off straight away to whatever foreign investor will buy it.

The NHS?? Carved up and sold to foreign  health insurance companies.

Whatever is left of Royal mail?? Gone

Basically every single service or property the UK has left that has "national" somewhere in its description will be stripped down and flogged off.

And the money won't go into the UK economy for investment, it will be sold to foreign investors to pay off our debts.

And your taxes will STILL be sky high and so will the debt.

If you think austerity was bad under the tories, hold onto your hat you wait till you see austerity as a result of corbyn

Whilst I accept the truth in a lot of what you say, don't forget it was Thatcher that killed of manufacturing and made us import dependent.
Didn't Cameron do quantatatieasing?

My point is we have people living in poverty, all this hardship for some, all these years of Tory policy and still things are getting worse? We are stil borrowing more, we still spend far too much on foreign aid our government and councils waste billions. Why is it not all getting better if the Tories are right and why isn't austerity working?
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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Vicar of Dibley (vod) on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:55 pm

I hate the Tories but also hate Labour and Corbyn - Libdems are pointless and UKIP need a good leader .
Therefore who do we vote for when all the parties are basically useless ?

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Miffs2 on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:16 pm

Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:I hate the Tories but also hate Labour and Corbyn - Libdems are pointless and UKIP need a good leader .
Therefore who do we vote for when all the parties are basically useless ?

They are all as bad as each other I think. I have been involved in some political stuff this year. I got invited to a launch in Portcullis House, that was brilliant and speakers including Claire Waxman were very supportive of the work being done for victims of crime and victims of terrorism.
Conversely in my Labour stronghold city, we can't even get an audience with our PCC and if you saw the value of the tender you would faint. That said tenders are out now, so I'm on a gagging order and can't say more. One thing though, of all the meetings with the great and the good, only one had me walking away thinking you utter twat and that was Andy Burnham.
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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Angry Andy on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:44 pm

Fred, you are probably an exception to the rule, but I find journalists, especially those in the employ of Murdoch and Dacre to be the worst liars, either spouting their own warped and biased view of the  world, or simply echoing what their editor tells them to say. I include hacks from the Mirror Group.
Kelvin McKenzie was one of the worst, a liar, cheat and fraud who paid a heavy price. Suprised he isnt standing as an MP for the party he adores.
Perhaps you can answer  why they have an agenda.
Why CANT they just write the truth naturally. Surely to God they do not beieve the tripe, bile and hatred they write about daily just to sell copy?

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by eddie on Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:27 pm

Miffs2 wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:I hate the Tories but also hate Labour and Corbyn - Libdems are pointless and UKIP need a good leader .
Therefore who do we vote for when all the parties are basically useless ?

They are all as bad as each other I think. I have been involved in some political stuff this year. I got invited to a launch in Portcullis House, that was brilliant and speakers including Claire Waxman were very supportive of the work being done for victims of crime and victims of terrorism.
Conversely in my Labour stronghold city, we can't even get an audience with our PCC and if you saw the value of the tender you would faint. That said tenders are out now, so I'm on a gagging order and can't say more. One thing though, of all the meetings with the great and the good, only one had me walking away thinking you utter twat and that was Andy Burnham.

My local MP is a Tory. She is absolutely brilliant. Every single time I've contacted her and asked for something, she's done it. She's prompt, she communicates and she's also spoke to me in person twice. I cannot fault her.

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Miffs2 on Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:37 pm

eddie wrote:
Miffs2 wrote:

They are all as bad as each other I think. I have been involved in some political stuff this year. I got invited to a launch in Portcullis House, that was brilliant and speakers including Claire Waxman were very supportive of the work being done for victims of crime and victims of terrorism.
Conversely in my Labour stronghold city, we can't even get an audience with our PCC and if you saw the value of the tender you would faint. That said tenders are out now, so I'm on a gagging order and can't say more. One thing though, of all the meetings with the great and the good, only one had me walking away thinking you utter twat and that was Andy Burnham.

My local MP is a Tory. She is absolutely brilliant. Every single time I've contacted her and asked for something, she's done it. She's prompt, she communicates and she's also spoke to me in person twice.  I cannot fault her.

That's good. Mine is Labour and I am a bit of a thorn in her side, she hates me Razz
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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by smelly-bandit on Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:51 pm

Miffs2 wrote:
smelly-bandit wrote:

Pretty much what Fred said but I'd also add that corbyn plans to wage war on the financial services as part of his purge of "the rich"

The UK doesn't produce goods as such but it does provide a service in the form of finances with a lot of big banks based in London.

Those services replace our lost manufacturing capabilities and provided the bulk of the UK economic income.

If Corbyn goes to war with them and taxes them to the hilt, the banks will simply up sticks and move abroad to friendlier  countries

They will also take with them their workforce.

With Corbyn power borrowing would be impossible, which means he has to find the income to pay for blood money from other sources.

That means taxing the shit out of every man and his dog, but his biggest tax payers the banks and the high earners would have buggered off, so he would have to raise taxes on ordinary people who fall well short of his criteria for being rich.

Corbyn hates business and industry, he despises capitalism so the money he raises from taxing everyone won't be going on investment in business or rebuilding our manufacturing base to generate growth and get the economy going.

It will be getting spent on shit like, nationalising the railway, and making sure the benefits system is fully stocked up.

Crazy socialist pipe dreams that have ruined every single country they have been implemented in.

Basically he will spend the taxes on luxuries whilst the bills get bigger and bigger.

Corbyn would have to resort to quantitive easing which mean printing money,which would only serve to devalue the pound even more.

With our financial services in ruin and no way of generating real economic growth, the pound worthless, the cost of our imports would be eye watering and simple things like bread and milk will cost a month's wages

our ability to repay our debts would slowly but surely degrade,and eventually the interest alone would simply become unpayable.

When that happens we enter a Greece scenario where we simply can't meet our financial obligations, and when that happens we be fucked.

Every seen the TV show "can't pay we'll take it away" that's pretty much what happens, the banks the UK borrows money from will send in its heavies and start selling everything the UK owes to the highest bidder.

So Corbyn newly nationalisiled  railway will be sold off straight away to whatever foreign investor will buy it.

The NHS?? Carved up and sold to foreign  health insurance companies.

Whatever is left of Royal mail?? Gone

Basically every single service or property the UK has left that has "national" somewhere in its description will be stripped down and flogged off.

And the money won't go into the UK economy for investment, it will be sold to foreign investors to pay off our debts.

And your taxes will STILL be sky high and so will the debt.

If you think austerity was bad under the tories, hold onto your hat you wait till you see austerity as a result of corbyn

Whilst I accept the truth in a lot of what you say, don't forget it was Thatcher that killed of manufacturing and made us import dependent.
Didn't Cameron do quantatatieasing?

My point is we have people living in poverty, all this hardship for some, all these years of Tory policy and still things are getting worse? We are stil borrowing more, we still spend far too much on foreign aid our government and councils waste billions. Why is it not all getting better if the Tories are right and why isn't austerity working?

the past doesn't matter

this isn't about placing blame , this is about the FUTURE in the real current world if corybn wins power, it doesn't matter what thatcher did it matters what corbyn will do

i think what you are confusing is debt and deficit

debt will never disappear, you can forget that right now, all countries have huge debt.

the deficit is the difference between what the country earns and what it spends, same as you or  me, slightly bigger figures involved but essentially the basic economics remains the same

so when you are spending more than you are earning you are running a deficit, same in your life or mine

but our lives dont stop and neither does a country so in order to continue to function we get credit cards and wonga loans and overdraft,and accrue massive debt, same principle for a country.

our national debt is secured against our national treasure in the same way a big loan would be secured against your house or car.

so the nation has to get the money from somewhere.

thats where austerity comes in, its designed to reduce the gap between what we spend and what we earn, once we get that under control and run a surplus - we can start to reduce the national debt AND invest

and that's why all we ever see are cuts cuts and more cuts.

you are correct, the government still wastes billions, foreign aid, the NHS, councils , social care, all the cuts are coming in at the wrong angle and any savings we do make are squandered by idiot politicians on shit like the brexit divorce bill and the HS2 vanity project and a whole host of other irrelevant shit that no one needs.

labour are not entirely wrong and the Tories not entirely right, austerity is necessary but it cuts against necessities like the police and the armed forces, while leaving luxuries like foreign aid untouched which is prolonging the austerity measures.

we could probably save hundreds of billions if the government were even halfway competent at their jobs and instead of cutting funding, they streamlined all our services and councils and everything else, but they arent and they wont

nothing will change under labour, people in poverty will still be in poverty, there will still be a housing crisis, corbyn wants to raise foreign aid and councils will still waste billions.

under the tories you tighten your belt go  without and eventually you live within your means like a responsible adult.

under corbyn its a free for all and you will live like a popstar but it will all be wonga loans with no way to pay it back.

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by eddie on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:25 pm

Miffs2 wrote:
eddie wrote:
Miffs2 wrote:

They are all as bad as each other I think. I have been involved in some political stuff this year. I got invited to a launch in Portcullis House, that was brilliant and speakers including Claire Waxman were very supportive of the work being done for victims of crime and victims of terrorism.
Conversely in my Labour stronghold city, we can't even get an audience with our PCC and if you saw the value of the tender you would faint. That said tenders are out now, so I'm on a gagging order and can't say more. One thing though, of all the meetings with the great and the good, only one had me walking away thinking you utter twat and that was Andy Burnham.

My local MP is a Tory. She is absolutely brilliant. Every single time I've contacted her and asked for something, she's done it. She's prompt, she communicates and she's also spoke to me in person twice.  I cannot fault her.

That's good. Mine is Labour and I am a bit of a thorn in her side, she hates me Razz

Hahahaha do you nag her?

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Miffs2 on Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:48 pm

eddie wrote:
Miffs2 wrote:

That's good. Mine is Labour and I am a bit of a thorn in her side, she hates me Razz

Hahahaha do you nag her?

Moi?!

Worse than that, I ask her questions she can't answer Laughing
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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Vicar of Dibley (vod) on Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:25 pm

Miffs2 wrote:
Vicar of Dibley (vod) wrote:I hate the Tories but also hate Labour and Corbyn - Libdems are pointless and UKIP need a good leader .
Therefore who do we vote for when all the parties are basically useless ?

They are all as bad as each other I think. I have been involved in some political stuff this year. I got invited to a launch in Portcullis House, that was brilliant and speakers including Claire Waxman were very supportive of the work being done for victims of crime and victims of terrorism.
Conversely in my Labour stronghold city, we can't even get an audience with our PCC and if you saw the value of the tender you would faint. That said tenders are out now, so I'm on a gagging order and can't say more. One thing though, of all the meetings with the great and the good, only one had me walking away thinking you utter twat and that was Andy Burnham.

Yes I'm from a labour town and I've always voted labour but that changed when Corbyn was voted leader the man is a traitor i just can't vote for him .

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Miffs2 on Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:34 pm

smelly-bandit wrote:
Miffs2 wrote:

Whilst I accept the truth in a lot of what you say, don't forget it was Thatcher that killed of manufacturing and made us import dependent.
Didn't Cameron do quantatatieasing?

My point is we have people living in poverty, all this hardship for some, all these years of Tory policy and still things are getting worse? We are stil borrowing more, we still spend far too much on foreign aid our government and councils waste billions. Why is it not all getting better if the Tories are right and why isn't austerity working?

the past doesn't matter

this isn't about placing blame , this is about the FUTURE in the real current world if corybn wins power, it doesn't matter what thatcher did it matters what corbyn will do

i think what you are confusing is debt and deficit

debt will never disappear, you can forget that right now, all countries have huge debt.

the deficit is the difference between what the country earns and what it spends, same as you or  me, slightly bigger figures involved but essentially the basic economics remains the same

so when you are spending more than you are earning you are running a deficit, same in your life or mine

but our lives dont stop and neither does a country so in order to continue to function we get credit cards and wonga loans and overdraft,and accrue massive debt, same principle for a country.

our national debt is secured against our national treasure in the same way a big loan would be secured against your house or car.

so the nation has to get the money from somewhere.

thats where austerity comes in, its designed to reduce the gap between what we spend and what we earn, once we get that under control and run a surplus - we can start to reduce the national debt AND invest

and that's why all we ever see are cuts cuts and more cuts.

you are correct, the government still wastes billions, foreign aid, the NHS, councils , social care, all the cuts are coming in at the wrong angle and any savings we do make are squandered by idiot politicians on shit like the brexit divorce bill and the HS2 vanity project and a whole host of other irrelevant shit that no one needs.

labour are not entirely wrong and the Tories not entirely right, austerity is necessary but it cuts against necessities like the police and the armed forces, while leaving luxuries like foreign aid untouched which is prolonging the austerity measures.

we could probably save hundreds of billions if the government were even halfway competent at their jobs and instead of cutting funding, they streamlined all our services and councils and everything else, but they arent and they wont

nothing will change under labour, people in poverty will still be in poverty, there will still be a housing crisis, corbyn wants to raise foreign aid and councils will still waste billions.

under the tories you tighten your belt go  without and eventually you live within your means like a responsible adult.

under corbyn its a free for all and you will live like a popstar but it will all be wonga loans with no way to pay it back.

I agree completely about streamlining services and cutting waste. In Merseyside we have a Metro Mayor and his deputy, a mayor and a deputy mayor a PCC and a deputy PCC, think about that salary bill. I just don't think welfare cuts are the way to go. We need to be a manufacturing Britain again, we need to stimulate the economy and create jobs. Proper jobs mind, not minimum wage zero hours nonsense.


Last edited by Miffs2 on Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : My post contained the word sense twice yet made none)
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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Jules on Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:37 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Lurker wrote:If Trump's ugly mouth is moving, he's lying.....

If any politician's mouth is moving, he or she is lying...

During my years as a newspaper and radio journalist I interviewed politicians ranging from parish councillors to prime ministers, and I always kept one question running silently in the back of my mind..."why is this bastard lying to me?"

Of course in your country, among the most famous - or perhaps one should say infamous - lies was "...I never had sexual relations with that woman."  

Clinton, wasn't it? Democrat, wasn't he?


Well it's certainly the lie people made the biggest public song and dance about, but ironically, in the scheme of things it's surely the LEAST important. 

Their sexual relations did not cause voters to lose their jobs, or lives. Some politician's lies and deceptions and false promises cause thousands of lives to be lost.

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Jules on Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:40 pm

I remember when it happened. A Palestinian leader was visiting the US and he had such a puzzled look on his face at their press conference, cos reporters were pestering Clinton with questions about his sex life instead of staying ontopic.


A press commentator said something like -  ''there are important national and international matters to sort out yet people with agendas are obsessing about where Clinton puts his dick.''.

He had a point!!!  lol!

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:28 am

Jules wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:

If any politician's mouth is moving, he or she is lying...

During my years as a newspaper and radio journalist I interviewed politicians ranging from parish councillors to prime ministers, and I always kept one question running silently in the back of my mind..."why is this bastard lying to me?"

Of course in your country, among the most famous - or perhaps one should say infamous - lies was "...I never had sexual relations with that woman."  

Clinton, wasn't it? Democrat, wasn't he?


Well it's certainly the lie people made the biggest public song and dance about, but ironically, in the scheme of things it's surely the LEAST important. 

Their sexual relations did not cause voters to lose their jobs, or lives. Some politician's lies and deceptions and false promises cause thousands of lives to be lost.

I wasn't being judgemental; I was simply expressing a view that mendacity is not the sole preserve of Trump and the Republican party, as Lurker appears to imply.

I liked Clinton as a person, but I cheerfully admit to knowing so little about US politics that I never thought to form an opinion, one way or another, about his political philosophy.

Trump, as I have said here before, scares the bejasus out of me, not because of his domestic policies - I leave comment on those to people who know more about them, i.e. the US electors who voted for him and his detractors who didn't - but because of his impact on the rest of the world, including my little bit of it.
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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by WhoseYourWolfie on Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:04 pm



Smelly's loopy version of voodoo economics is why Britain is stuffed...

Britain has very little natural resources left, in proportion to its population and current spending levels--  so I don't know where Smelly' thinks Britain is going to get the funds to repay his proposed increased borrowings --  Japan and Germany still having significant manufacturing sectors, won't find themselves quite as bad off, financially;  Smelly's beloved Torie, though, pretty well stuffed much of Britain's manufacturing base during the 1980s..


Britain no longer has its colonies to rip off any more, to cover its spending..

As for debt levels --  expressed as a % of GNP, Britains national debt is more than double that of Australia, or Canada, or even Sarf Arfrika and Cuba;  while even NZ has more natural wealth than poor little Britain.

As for natural resources --   Canada, Brazil, the USA, Russia, Australia, even Argentina, still have more natural resources still in the ground, when compared to anyone over there in Europe..   Just a pity the relevant governments have sold so much of it off so cheaply over the past century...  


"Entrepreneurs" and the financiers/corporatists are the one creating jobs in Smelly's fantasyland --  but in reality, they are the ones who have destroyed, "off-shored" and sold out so many workers over the past 30+ years..

Smelly and Fred are only guessing at what a Corbyn-led Labour gov't might do, when the current financier-controlled Tory robber- barons eventually implode;  whereas the downtrodden lower 70% of Britain's population already knows what to expect from continuing Tory brilliance.

Then there's the sad fact that taxes will have to go back up eventually, irregardless of who wins the next election...

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by smelly-bandit on Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:40 pm

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Smelly's loopy version of voodoo economics is why Britain is stuffed...

Britain has very little natural resources left, in proportion to its population and current spending levels--  so I don't know where Smelly' thinks Britain is going to get the funds to repay his proposed increased borrowings --  Japan and Germany still having significant manufacturing sectors, won't find themselves quite as bad off, financially;   Smelly's beloved Torie, though, pretty well stuffed much of Britain's manufacturing base during the 1980s..


Britain no longer has its colonies to rip off any more, to cover its spending..

As for debt levels --  expressed as a % of GNP, Britains national debt is more than double that of Australia, or Canada, or even Sarf Arfrika and Cuba;  while even NZ has more natural wealth than poor little Britain.

As for natural resources --   Canada, Brazil, the USA, Russia, Australia, even Argentina, still have more natural resources still in the ground, when compared to anyone over there in Europe..   Just a pity the relevant governments have sold so much of it off so cheaply over the past century...  


"Entrepreneurs" and the financiers/corporatists are the one creating jobs in Smelly's fantasyland --  but in reality, they are the ones who have destroyed, "off-shored" and sold out so many workers over the past 30+ years..

Smelly and Fred are only guessing at what a Corbyn-led Labour gov't might do, when the current financier-controlled Tory robber- barons eventually implode;  whereas the downtrodden lower 70% of Britain's population already knows what to expect from continuing Tory brilliance.

Then there's the sad fact that taxes will have to go back up eventually, irregardless of who wins the next election...

Maybe you should stick to inbred sex in the outback??

Leave intelligent conversation to your betters


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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by SEXY MAMA on Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:19 pm

He does have a point though!!!!!

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by smelly-bandit on Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:40 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:He does have a point though!!!!!

I often do.

Unfortunately the points I make are often lost on the uneducated buffoons that infest this place

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:52 pm

Angry Andy wrote:Fred, you are probably  an exception to the rule, but I find journalists, especially those in the employ of Murdoch and Dacre to be the worst liars, either spouting their own warped and biased view of the  world, or simply echoing what their editor tells them to say. I  include hacks from the Mirror Group.
Kelvin McKenzie was one of the worst, a liar, cheat and fraud who paid a heavy price. Suprised he isnt standing as an MP for the party he adores.
Perhaps you can answer  why they have an agenda.
Why CANT they just write the truth naturally. Surely to God they do not beieve the tripe, bile and hatred they write about daily just to sell copy?

Well, from my own point of view, apart from a brief period as a relief sub-editor on the Daily Mail where I have to say that I neither experienced nor witnessed the, er, warped and biased  scenario that you offer,  I spent my years in newspaper journalism in the provinces - as a matter of choice. There,  that great editor C P Scott's first law of journalism - "comment is free but facts are sacred" - reigned supreme.

The silly categorization of all "journalists" as inveterate liars displays a complete and utter lack of knowledge about how the dissemination of news actually works.

Firstly, let's start with the premise that one man's lie is another man's truth. Just because you disbelieve - or, more likely, choose to disbelieve - something that you read in a newspaper in immaterial, as it is nothing more than an assumption based on your own prejudices...unless you can provide evidence, or better still proof,  to the contrary.

Can you? Examples, please.....

Secondly, most public complaints about "newspaper lies" are little more than whinges about the opinions of someone else. The bulk of news coverage - the remit of reporters - is based, not unnaturally,  on reported speech; the opinions and interpretations of those who are in a position to express them. And believe me, such people - inevitably  those who have a vested interest in their points of view being entered in the public domain - are far more prone to lying to a reporter than is the reporter whose job is simply to report their opinions.

Hence my somewhat jaundiced view on the utterances of politicians.

The fact is that by far most of the "complaints" about Daily Mail lies, Daily Mirror lies, Daily Telegraph lies or Guardian lies are actually centred not on the newspapers' reporting of the news, but on what is written on the inside pages as opinion by either staff or contracted commentators or columnists.

Those are people who earn their crust by expressing their own interpretation of events or their own opinions on the issues of the day.

And in doing that they are not "lying" or mendaciously pursuing a particular "agenda"....they are simply doing what every one of us does in this and countless other discussion groups every day...exercising an inalienable right to freedom of speech.

The difference is that their interpretations and opinions are deemed to be somewhat more authoritative, persuasive and - above all - controversial -  than ours.[/b]

And that, in essence, is what Manchester Guardian editor C P Scott was getting at.
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Fred Moletrousers
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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Original Quill on Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:36 pm

Fred Moletrousers wrote:
Jules wrote:

Well it's certainly the lie people made the biggest public song and dance about, but ironically, in the scheme of things it's surely the LEAST important. 

Their sexual relations did not cause voters to lose their jobs, or lives. Some politician's lies and deceptions and false promises cause thousands of lives to be lost.

I wasn't being judgemental; I was simply expressing a view that mendacity is not the sole preserve of Trump and the Republican party, as Lurker appears to imply.

I liked Clinton as a person, but I cheerfully admit to knowing so little about US politics that I never thought to form an opinion, one way or another, about his political philosophy.

Trump, as I have said here before, scares the bejasus out of me, not because of his domestic policies - I leave comment on those to people who know more about them, i.e. the US electors who voted for him and his detractors who didn't - but because of his impact on the rest of the world, including my little bit of it.

When I first responded to you, Fred, I had intended to focus in on politics and political motivation.  I didn’t say that people like Clinton don’t lie, but merely stated that certain people embrace mendacity more than others…that it is built into their political circumstance.

With Clinton, you are going outside of the political realm.  Bill Clinton simply couldn’t keep his pants zipped, that’s all.  But there’s nothing political about getting a BJ, even in the Oval Office.

To return to the subject: we were discussing politicians, and we were discussing mendacity.  You had said something to the effect that all politicians lie.  Why?  In pursuing that inquiry, I find that the lying politician has something to hide…and I don’t mean BJ’s, and to his wife.  The essence of politics in a democracy is representing the people, ergo you need to lie when you betray that trust.

The core fact of lying politicians is they want to hold that trust, while they are betraying it.  Politics is for votes, and you need votes to get elected.  Lying is the lubricant that makes that possible.  So, the question becomes: who is in that position?  Go back to the beginning: conservatives represent special interests; [progressives represent the general interest].

The Tax Act that has recently been passed by Republicans in the US Congress (the only legislation that they have passed in 2017), is a classical case in point.  The primary purpose of the tax cut, they say, is to promote jobs.  We don’t need jobs.  We have achieved full employment (estimated at 4% unemployment).  That’s the first lie.

They say it will benefit the economy if we give the money to the wealthy, because the wealthy invest and it becomes the engine for growth.  But right now, the wealthy are awash in capital already.  Interest rates are the lowest in years, and everyone is flush.  Here’s the second lie: “Trickle-down economics” not only doesn’t work, but right now we wouldn’t need it if it did!

The amount in controversy here is about $1.5-trillion.  Where does it come from?  It will be financed by the deficit.  Oh…but to satisfy the deficit hawks, first we’ll increase taxes (or reduce deductions and write-offs) for the average Joe, so the middle class will pick up the tab.  No more state and local tax deduction...the middle class will pay taxes on taxes.  Oh...and no more mortgage deduction.  Here's your third lie: for the middle class it’s a tax hike; only for the wealthy is it a tax cut.

Undeterred by the lack of need for cash, the conservatives make their arguments because they think we are stupid (see, elitist thinking of the conservative mind).  What’s going to happen to the $1.5-trillion that we give the wealthy in the form of a massive tax cut?  Here's your fourth lie: the corporate decision-makers, needing no capital, will distribute it in the form of dividends (for themselves) and corporate buy-backs, which will mean the famous ‘1%’ will own even more of the world's wealth.  To wit: it’s a massive shift in wealth upward, to the already wealthy.

So, they are taking our money, and giving it away, to people who don’t need it.  Why?  Conservatives represent special interests.  To bring the point around full circle: when you don’t represent the interests of the people, you have incentive to lie every day. You need the votes.

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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Fred Moletrousers on Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:00 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Fred Moletrousers wrote:

I wasn't being judgemental; I was simply expressing a view that mendacity is not the sole preserve of Trump and the Republican party, as Lurker appears to imply.

I liked Clinton as a person, but I cheerfully admit to knowing so little about US politics that I never thought to form an opinion, one way or another, about his political philosophy.

Trump, as I have said here before, scares the bejasus out of me, not because of his domestic policies - I leave comment on those to people who know more about them, i.e. the US electors who voted for him and his detractors who didn't - but because of his impact on the rest of the world, including my little bit of it.

When I first responded to you, Fred, I had intended to focus in on politics and political motivation.  I didn’t say that people like Clinton don’t lie, but merely stated that certain people embrace mendacity more than others…that it is built into their political circumstance.

With Clinton, you are going outside of the political realm.  Bill Clinton simply couldn’t keep his pants zipped, that’s all.  But there’s nothing political about getting a BJ, even in the Oval Office.

Quite, but Bill Clinton was President and the President deliberately lied to the American people and therefore, in effect, to your House of Representatives and your Senate. In my country that would have been more than sufficient to make it political, and that is why it is regarded as being a resignation matter. Marital infidelity is one thing; deceit and deception of political colleagues and, more importantly, the electorate is another.

To return to the subject: we were discussing politicians, and we were discussing mendacity.  You had said something to the effect that all politicians lie.  Why? (A not unnatural defence mechanism adopted by a journalist who doesn't happen to be gullible enough necessarily  to believe all he is told by someone seeking advantageous media coverage.)  In pursuing that inquiry, I find that the lying politician has something to hide…and I don’t mean BJ’s, and to his wife.  The essence of politics in a democracy is representing the people, ergo you need to lie when you betray that trust.

The core fact of lying politicians is they want to hold that trust, while they are betraying it.  Politics is for votes, and you need votes to get elected.  Lying is the lubricant that makes that possible.  So, the question becomes: who is in that position?  Go back to the beginning: conservatives represent special interests; [progressives represent the general interest].

That's a generalisation that I would be most hesitant in accepting, being old enough to remember the nefarious activities of Labour (i.e. progressive) MP Robert Maxwell who ruined the lives of his many employees in the (Labour supporting) Daily Mirror Group by actually stealing their pension funds! In my experience, not all Tories are knuckle-dragging far Right thugs and brutal captains of industry any more than all Labour supporters are almost invisibly to the Left of Mao T'se Tung.

The Tax Act that has recently been passed by Republicans in the US Congress (the only legislation that they have passed in 2017), is a classical case in point.  The primary purpose of the tax cut, they say, is to promote jobs.  We don’t need jobs.  We have achieved full employment (estimated at 4% unemployment).  That’s the first lie.

They say it will benefit the economy if we give the money to the wealthy, because the wealthy invest and it becomes the engine for growth.  But right now, the wealthy are awash in capital already.  Interest rates are the lowest in years, and everyone is flush.  Here’s the second lie: “Trickle-down economics” not only doesn’t work, but right now we wouldn’t need it if it did!

The amount in controversy here is about $1.5-trillion.  Where does it come from?  It will be financed by the deficit.  Oh…but to satisfy the deficit hawks, first we’ll increase taxes (or reduce deductions and write-offs) for the average Joe, so the middle class will pick up the tab.  No more state and local tax deduction...the middle class will pay taxes on taxes.  Oh...and no more mortgage deduction.  So, for the middle class it’s a tax hike; only for the wealthy is it a tax cut.

Undeterred by the lack of need for cash, the conservatives make their arguments because they think we are stupid (see, elitist thinking of the conservative mind).  What’s going to happen to the $1.5-trillion that we give the wealthy in the form of a massive tax cut?  The corporate decision-makers, needing no capital, will distribute it in the form of dividends (for themselves) and corporate buy-backs, which will mean the famous ‘1%’ will own even more of the world's wealth.  To wit: it’s a massive shift in wealth upward, to the already wealthy.

So, they are taking our money, and giving it away, to people who don’t need it.  Why?  Conservatives represent special interests.  To bring the point around full circle: when you don’t represent the interests of the people, you have incentive to lie every day.

I can't comment with any degree of intelligence on your taxation policies on the not unreasonable grounds that I have difficulty enough in understanding our own!
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Re: Trump lied again.

Post by Original Quill on Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:25 pm

Fred M. wrote:Quite, but Bill Clinton was President and the President deliberately lied to the American people and therefore, in effect, to your House of Representatives and your Senate. In my country that would have been more than sufficient to make it political, and that is why it is regarded as being a resignation matter. Marital infidelity is one thing; deceit and deception of political colleagues and, more importantly, the electorate is another.

But you get off the subject of politics when you leap into such generalities.  What was your point about politics then, if you were simply going to criticize all liars.  I don’t question your sincerity, but unless you are going to say all politicians (and only politicians) go around seeking BJ’s, you’re not really talking about politicians.  To wit: you are talking about one person, who happens to be a politician, who got a BJ in the Oval Office.

Fred M. wrote:(A not unnatural defence mechanism adopted by a journalist who doesn't happen to be gullible enough necessarily  to believe all he is told by someone seeking advantageous media coverage.)

And I’m sure that’s served you well.  But here, we’re not being defensive, but somewhat analytical: Why do politicians lie, and do all of them lie?

Fred M. wrote:That's a generalisation that I would be most hesitant in accepting, being old enough to remember the nefarious activities of Labour (i.e. progressive) MP Robert Maxwell who ruined the lives of his many employees in the (Labour supporting) Daily Mirror Group by actually stealing their pension funds! In my experience, not all Tories are knuckle-dragging far Right thugs and brutal captains of industry any more than all Labour supporters are almost invisibly to the Left of Mao T'se Tung.

They have indeed evolved into knuckledraggers in this country.  Charlottesville was no coincidence.

Re: Maxwell…once again, there are many paths to deceit and evil.  I am simply isolating one such path, and it derives from the perception that the (conservative) politician has of himself.  He knows he is lying…indeed, he only judges himself by how well he lies.

Fred M. wrote:I can't comment with any degree of intelligence on your taxation policies on the not unreasonable grounds that I have difficulty enough in understanding our own!

I use the Tax Act as an example only.  It’s an example of why and how the lies take shape.  If you like, skip to the core point of each paragraph.  (I identified them by marking them as lies number 1, 2, 3, and 4.)  My digression into the Tax Act was only a single substantiation point.  There are many others: the lies about WMD’s to get us into a war in Iraq, for example.  Read up on Lee Atwater, and the southern strategy of the Republican Party.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

https://www.thenation.com/article/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/

The conservative side has one, perennial problem: how to get votes when you don’t represent the interests?  Their answer: they lie.

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