Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

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Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Maddog on Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

What about people who leave their keys in their car?

Florida state Rep. Wengay Newton (D–St. Petersburg) is so tough on auto theft that he wants to punish the crime's victims as well.

Newton has introduced a bill that would make it a criminal offense to have your car stolen if you leave it unlocked with the keys inside. His legislation would make this a second-degree misdemeanor; violators would face fines of up to $500 and jail time of up to 60 days.

But only if the person who steals the car is a minor. Having the same unlocked car stolen by an adult would not be a criminal offense.

"We have a lot of juveniles getting access to vehicles unlawfully. However, these juveniles are not using guns or force. These vehicles are pretty much just left running with keys in them," Newton told WTSP. He claims his bill would "close this floodgate of a crime of opportunity."

Leaving one's car unlocked can already lead to a citation in Florida, but a Tampa Bay Times analysis found that these are rarely issued.

Not surprisingly, this proposal has prompted some pushback from people who say it's unfair to crime victims. That includes a number of law enforcement officials.

"I don't think it would be appropriate to charge a victim for a crime," Clearwater Police Chief Daniel Slaughter told the Tampa Bay Times. "When we're trying to build trust in the community, it wouldn't really breed a culture of trust between victims and law enforcement." St. Petersburg Police Chief Anthony Holloway expressed similar sentiments, pointing out to the paper that "people won't report it, or they'll lie to us."



http://reason.com/blog/2017/12/12/florida-bill-would-make-it-a-crime-to-be

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:49 pm

Didge wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:Diabetics ARE banned from driving...if on insulin.....untill they can show a number of blood sugar readings that are consistantly "within the boundaries" over I think ist 6 months.....

I "think" though not sure that the number is 1000 , thats about 6 tests per day showing your blood levels are stable and controlled and that you have got your dosing right.
those on diet and tablet control are not considered the same risk as those on insulin becasue its very very rare for diet or tablets to cause a low or come to that for a dangerous high to happen (unless you are plain bum stupid)


1) That is if they are on insulin, but my point holds true does it not?

2) Come on Victor, you have to see this for what it is on negligence. Its not like leaving your children in the car, is it?

The reailty is, nobody on any given day (unless they are you) would perceive, that their actions would then lead to some teenager idiot, stealing their car for a joyride and then causing an accident and it being fatal.

3) I mean based on your reasoning. Are you to presume hypothetically and where say you trust someone. You leave the keys to the cabinet of where its known you keep ammo. For your guns, that you could forseee, that then that person would go and open this, take the ammo and the gun and kill someone?

then I would be prosecuted as it is a requirement that no one has access to the keys to my gun cabinet but myself ...shotgun ammo doesnt need to be secured...strangely enough...though mine is cos of the grandkids

so YES didge...I WOULD be held accountable...indeed I would be prosecuted


Could you truly have forseen that truefully?

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:54 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Didge wrote:


1) That is if they are on insulin, but my point holds true does it not?

2) Come on Victor, you have to see this for what it is on negligence. Its not like leaving your children in the car, is it?

The reailty is, nobody on any given day (unless they are you) would perceive, that their actions would then lead to some teenager idiot, stealing their car for a joyride and then causing an accident and it being fatal.

3) I mean based on your reasoning. Are you to presume hypothetically and where say you trust someone. You leave the keys to the cabinet of where its known you keep ammo. For your guns, that you could forseee, that then that person would go and open this, take the ammo and the gun and kill someone?

then I would be prosecuted as it is a requirement that no one has access to the keys to my gun cabinet but myself ...shotgun ammo doesnt need to be secured...strangely enough...though mine is cos of the grandkids

so YES didge...I WOULD be held accountable...indeed I would be prosecuted


Could you truly have forseen that truefully?


You really are missing my point on that, are you not mate?

Nobody would have access, as its you that has access to those keys

Its leaving those keys around and that someone knows what those keys are for.

Just like someone knows what car keys are for

So how then would you be held accountable?

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:58 pm

Because didge...thats the law.....

If I left those keys lying around I would get done for it....no ifs no buts no defense no mitigation...

immediate loss of certificate and guns and the likelyhood of a large fine and or some time behind bars


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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:03 pm

Lord Foul wrote:Because didge...thats the law.....

If I left those keys lying around I would get done for it....no ifs no buts no defense no mitigation...

immediate loss of certificate and guns and the likelyhood of a large fine and or some time behind bars



Actually, I cannot see any law that would charge you based on my hypothetical situation.

As the reaily is, neither you nor anybody, could have predicted that outcome.

Hence, this is the point I am trying to get across to you

As nobody would know what those keys would open, only those you know and trust. Hence why if its someone you trust, how would you be to blame?

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:05 pm

becasue didge thats what the law SAYS....


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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:06 pm

Lord Foul wrote:becasue didge thats what the law SAYS....



Show me the law, that states, you have to keep the keys that locks your ammunition on you at all times?

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:39 pm

9.17.
The term “unauthorised access” has been held to include the constructive possession
that can occur where persons other than the certificate holder have access to the keys
for security devices, as well as access gained by criminal entry to the premises etc. Thus
any keys to any security device should be kept secure, with access limited to authorised
persons. This is especially important if there are children present in the premises.
Knowledge by an unauthorised person of the location of the keys or to the combination to
the locks may lead to a breach of the statutory security condition. In the case of Regina v
Chelmsford Crown Court, Ex parte Farrer (2000) it was agreed that deliberately providing
172
Guide on Firearms Licensing Law
information of the whereabouts of the keys was an offence. It was “reasonably practicable”
for Mr Farrer not to tell his mother where the keys were kept in this case.
19.18.
The Court of Appeal case of Ex Parte Farrer (2000) confirmed the proposition that, if
other people who are not authorised to possess the firearm/shotgun have access to it,
the firearm/shotgun will not have been stored securely to prevent access by unauthorised
persons. The Court of Appeal found that the term “practicable” in the Firearms Rules
means “feasible in practice” not socially convenient or “reasonable”. The court found that it
was feasible for Mr Farrer to have prevented his mother having access, and that he was in
breach of the conditions of the certificate because he gave his mother access to the key.
What is required is for the certificate holder to keep the whereabouts of the key or security
combination unknown to anyone but themselves


From https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/518193/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_April_2016_v20.pdf

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:41 pm

note...it doesnt require that I keep them ON ME at all times

It requires that i keep them out of the posession of anyone else at all times....

so they can be locked in a secure safe to which only I have the combination...for instance

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:43 pm

Didge....I OWN guns...you dont think for one second that I dont totally understand the laws applicable do you?

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:47 pm

Lord Foul wrote:note...it doesnt require that I keep them ON ME at all times

It requires that i keep them out of the posession of anyone else at all times....

so they can be locked in a secure safe to which only I have the combination...for instance


So the legal standing would not prosecute you, would it?

So you agree it does not require you to keep your kets on your person at all times

So my point still holds true

All it states, is about storage.

Now we both agree that a car can be used as a weapon and that licences should be stricter.

But the same principle applies here

You may have your guns, or in the case of a car locked up in a garage

The reaility is on the keys is it not?

So, if you did not let anyone know what that key was used for and left it on the table. To then an opportune thief trying out all your keys. Would you be to blame?

The answer is no

Your answer was based on giving access to someone else, his mother. Thus knowingly doing so


Last edited by Didge on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:49 pm

Lord Foul wrote:Didge....I OWN guns...you dont think for one second that I dont totally understand the laws applicable do you?


I know you do, but as seen, your arguments falls foul when applied to your own logic on keys

No pun intened on foul

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:55 pm

READ the section on key security I posted

whether I keep them ON ME ata all times or otherwise secure is irrelevant.....

what is the crux of the matter IS...that if anyone got hold of those keys due to me "leaving them lying around"......I'd be shafted

so no..on that you are wrong...full stop.

if the safe was busted and the keys obtained ...that would be considered differently since I had taken all "feasible " steps to ensure their security (by locking them in the safe.)

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If at any time in 2017 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2018 AINT gonna be any different

There are those who's opinion I value, there are those who's opinion I neither value or scorn, and then there are those who's opinion I just ignore as insignificant...I can assure you the latter outnumber the first two combined by a whole order of magnitude


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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:56 pm

FOR YOU AGAIN

9.17.
The term “unauthorised access” has been held to include the constructive possession
that can occur where persons other than the certificate holder have access to the keys
for security devices, as well as access gained by criminal entry to the premises etc. Thus
any keys to any security device should be kept secure, with access limited to authorised
persons. This is especially important if there are children present in the premises.
Knowledge by an unauthorised person of the location of the keys or to the combination to
the locks may lead to a breach of the statutory security condition. In the case of Regina v
Chelmsford Crown Court, Ex parte Farrer (2000) it was agreed that deliberately providing
172
Guide on Firearms Licensing Law
information of the whereabouts of the keys was an offence. It was “reasonably practicable”
for Mr Farrer not to tell his mother where the keys were kept in this case.
19.18.
The Court of Appeal case of Ex Parte Farrer (2000) confirmed the proposition that, if
other people who are not authorised to possess the firearm/shotgun have access to it,
the firearm/shotgun will not have been stored securely to prevent access by unauthorised
persons. The Court of Appeal found that the term “practicable” in the Firearms Rules
means “feasible in practice” not socially convenient or “reasonable”. The court found that it
was feasible for Mr Farrer to have prevented his mother having access, and that he was in
breach of the conditions of the certificate because he gave his mother access to the key.
What is required is for the certificate holder to keep the whereabouts of the key or security combination unknown to anyone but themselves

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/518193/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_April_2016_v20.pdf

_________________
If at any time in 2017 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2018 AINT gonna be any different

There are those who's opinion I value, there are those who's opinion I neither value or scorn, and then there are those who's opinion I just ignore as insignificant...I can assure you the latter outnumber the first two combined by a whole order of magnitude


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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:59 pm

Lord Foul wrote:READ the section on key security I posted

whether I keep them ON ME ata all times or otherwise secure is irrelevant.....

what is the crux of the matter IS...that if anyone got hold of those keys due to me "leaving them lying around"......I'd be shafted

so no..on that you are wrong...full stop.

if the safe was busted and the keys obtained ...that would be considered differently since I had taken all "feasible " steps to ensure their security (by locking them in the safe.)


No, you are not understanding what you posted.

It states about those who have "access"|to those same keys

We are talking about how you stated on someone seeing keys left in the car and I am stating how someone can see keys left on the kitchen table through a window

So I am not wrong at all

That person with the car keys maybe 10 feet away in a shop. You may well be in the bath or asleep

Its still the same thing.

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:00 am

Lord Foul wrote:FOR YOU AGAIN

9.17.
The term “unauthorised access” has been held to include the constructive possession
that can occur where persons other than the certificate holder have access to the keys
for security devices, as well as access gained by criminal entry to the premises etc. Thus
any keys to any security device should be kept secure, with access limited to authorised
persons. This is especially important if there are children present in the premises.
Knowledge by an unauthorised person of the location of the keys or to the combination to
the locks may lead to a breach of the statutory security condition. In the case of Regina v
Chelmsford Crown Court, Ex parte Farrer (2000) it was agreed that deliberately providing
172
Guide on Firearms Licensing Law
information of the whereabouts of the keys was an offence. It was “reasonably practicable”
for Mr Farrer not to tell his mother where the keys were kept in this case.
19.18.
The Court of Appeal case of Ex Parte Farrer (2000) confirmed the proposition that, if
other people who are not authorised to possess the firearm/shotgun have access to it,
the firearm/shotgun will not have been stored securely to prevent access by unauthorised
persons. The Court of Appeal found that the term “practicable” in the Firearms Rules
means “feasible in practice” not socially convenient or “reasonable”. The court found that it
was feasible for Mr Farrer to have prevented his mother having access, and that he was in
breach of the conditions of the certificate because he gave his mother access to the key.
What is required is for the certificate holder to keep the whereabouts of the key or security combination unknown to anyone but themselves

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/518193/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_April_2016_v20.pdf

_________________
If at any time in 2017 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2018 AINT gonna be any different

There are those who's opinion I value, there are those who's opinion I neither value or scorn, and then there are those who's opinion I just ignore as insignificant...I can assure you the latter outnumber the first two combined by a whole order of magnitude


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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:00 am

Didge wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:READ the section on key security I posted

whether I keep them ON ME ata all times or otherwise secure is irrelevant.....

what is the crux of the matter IS...that if anyone got hold of those keys due to me "leaving them lying around"......I'd be shafted

so no..on that you are wrong...full stop.

if the safe was busted and the keys obtained ...that would be considered differently since I had taken all "feasible " steps to ensure their security (by locking them in the safe.)


No, you are not understanding what you posted.

It states about those who have "access"|to those same keys

We are talking about how you stated on someone seeing keys left in the car and I am stating how someone can see keys left on the kitchen table through a window

So I am not wrong at all

That person with the car keys maybe 10 feet away in a shop. You may well be in the bath or asleep

Its still the same thing.


For you again

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:01 am

LOOK AT THAT FIRST PART in red
so yes if i left them and someone broke in and tried all the keys. I'd be held responsible...in fact as responsible as if I'd left the gun itself lying around.

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:05 am

Lord Foul wrote:LOOK AT THAT FIRST PART in red
so yes if i left them and someone broke in and tried all the keys. I'd be held responsible...in fact as responsible as if I'd left the gun itself lying around.


No you would not be responsible

As if your house was secure and nobody knew you had guns. Yet they saw your keys on the table and it was night time. Do you not think they would try those keys?

It does not state, you have to have those keys on your person. It states about knowing what that key opens and has access to.

They would have to happen upon the guns by chance by opening things

You know, you are wrong here

This is why someone like me can easily see around poor laws

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:11 am

didge...you are a berk....

that is what the law states and that is exactly how it is applied....

if I left my cabinet keys out where they are "gettable" even in a break in...I WOULD be held negligent and culpable ...and lose the certificate....

the house is secure, the cabinet is concealed etc etc etc

but if I left those keys "unsupervised" I'd be liable

not that it would matter if I was in the bath...i'd just climb out and...well medusa has nowt on me...they would turn to stone on the spot.

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If at any time in 2017 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2018 AINT gonna be any different

There are those who's opinion I value, there are those who's opinion I neither value or scorn, and then there are those who's opinion I just ignore as insignificant...I can assure you the latter outnumber the first two combined by a whole order of magnitude


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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:17 am

Lord Foul wrote:didge...you are a berk....

that is what the law states and that is exactly how it is applied....

if I left my cabinet keys out where they are "gettable" even in a break in...I WOULD be held negligent and culpable ...and lose the certificate....

the house is secure, the cabinet is concealed etc etc etc

but if I left those keys "unsupervised" I'd be liable

not that it would matter if I was in the bath...i'd just climb out and...well medusa has nowt on me...they would turn to stone on the spot.


You know someone has lost the argument when they become emotional and insult

Your house is secure

That means it has to be broken into, as the house is secure.

Read your own link

That means you are not liable

So you would not be negligent, as those thieves would have no idea you had guns. Even if they did watch you. Your house would still be secure and they would have no idea where your guns are

The point is, they now have acess to your keys, once they have broken in

Your saving grace, is that your house is locked, but its not thief proof. No house is.

Lets see if you have some humility here, as ask any lawyer whether you are right or I am right

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:18 am

they dont have to be "on you" or indeed in a safe....they can be securely hidden (and there are plenty of secure places to hide things in a house.....beleive me......)

they must be kept as secure as is feasible...

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:20 am

Lord Foul wrote:they dont have to be "on you" or indeed in a safe....they can be securely hidden (and there are plenty of secure places to hide things in a house.....beleive me......)

they must be kept as secure as is feasible...


Now you are clutching staws mate

So lets take this scenario, that you have hidden them

It does not matter, as the point is they have gotten past your secure area, by gaining access to your house

The point you keep utterly missing

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:21 am

Didge wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:didge...you are a berk....

that is what the law states and that is exactly how it is applied....

if I left my cabinet keys out where they are "gettable" even in a break in...I WOULD be held negligent and culpable ...and lose the certificate....

the house is secure, the cabinet is concealed etc etc etc

but if I left those keys "unsupervised" I'd be liable

not that it would matter if I was in the bath...i'd just climb out and...well medusa has nowt on me...they would turn to stone on the spot.


You know someone has lost the argument when they become emotional and insult

Your house is secure

That means it has to be broken into, as the house is secure.

Read your own link

That means you are not liable

So you would not be negligent, as those thieves would have no idea you had guns. Even if they did watch you. Your house would still be secure and they would have no idea where your guns are

The point is, they now have acess to your keys, once they have broken in

Your saving grace, is that your house is locked, but its not thief proof. No house is.

Lets see if you have some humility here, as ask any lawyer whether you are right or I am right

didge ...you DONT know the law on this issue...not one bit

why dont you ring up your local FEO (firearms enquiry officer) ?

the posted paragraphs CLEARLY state that the keys MUST be secured in ADDITION to any other security that might exist.

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:23 am

they have got past the FIRST secure layer
you are responsible for ensuring there is a second secure area eg the cabinet AND its means of entry...keys/codes

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:23 am

Lord Foul wrote:
Didge wrote:


You know someone has lost the argument when they become emotional and insult

Your house is secure

That means it has to be broken into, as the house is secure.

Read your own link

That means you are not liable

So you would not be negligent, as those thieves would have no idea you had guns. Even if they did watch you. Your house would still be secure and they would have no idea where your guns are

The point is, they now have acess to your keys, once they have broken in

Your saving grace, is that your house is locked, but its not thief proof. No house is.

Lets see if you have some humility here, as ask any lawyer whether you are right or I am right

didge ...you DONT know the law on this issue...not one bit

why dont you ring up your local FEO (firearms enquiry officer) ?

the posted paragraphs CLEARLY state that the keys MUST be secured in ADDITION to any other security that might exist.


Even worse a reply

Claiming i do not know the law

How about you ring up them and tell me if what i say is wrong

I bet you any money, that they will say you are wrong

As the reality is, it would be an opportune situation that they found your guns or ammo, after they had gained access past your secure premises

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:26 am

Lord Foul wrote:they have got past the FIRST secure layer
you are responsible for ensuring there is a second secure area eg the cabinet AND its means of entry...keys/codes


You have both

They see keys on the table

We are not talking codes here, just keys

You are moving the goalposts mate

Once in, you are not to blame, if your premises is locked

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:31 am

sorry but yes I would be....

and clearly you DONT know the law..since if you did we would not be going round in circles over this...


the first part of my link states


The term “unauthorised access” has been held to include the constructive possession
that can occur where persons other than the certificate holder have access to the keys
for security devices, as well as access gained by criminal entry to the premises etc. Thus
any keys to any security device should be kept secure
, with access limited to authorised
persons.


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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:32 am

Lord Foul wrote:sorry but yes I would be....

and clearly you DONT know the law..since if you did we would not be going round in circles over this...


the first part of my link states


The term “unauthorised access” has been held to include the constructive possession
that can occur where persons other than the certificate holder have access to the keys
for security devices, as well as access gained by criminal entry to the premises etc. Thus
any keys to any security device should be kept secure
, with access limited to authorised
persons.



It is secure

You have your house locked

And yet thieves see keys and break into something

Try again


Last edited by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:33 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:33 am

In other words even in your own home you CANNOT leave gun cabinet keys lying around they MUST be seperately secured (or on your person)

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:34 am

Lord Foul wrote:In other words even in your own home you CANNOT leave gun cabinet keys lying around they MUST be seperately secured (or on your person)


So you are saying a court of law would condemn you for having been broken into, when your house is secure?

Come again?

Want to phone a friend mate?

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:34 am

Didge wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:sorry but yes I would be....

and clearly you DONT know the law..since if you did we would not be going round in circles over this...


the first part of my link states


The term “unauthorised access” has been held to include the constructive possession
that can occur where persons other than the certificate holder have access to the keys
for security devices, as well as access gained by criminal entry to the premises etc. Thus
any keys to any security device should be kept secure
, with access limited to authorised
persons.



It is secure

You have your house locked

nope...not for the purpose of this act, it isnt sufficient.....you have to take "extra" measures


Try again


Last edited by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:37 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:35 am

Didge wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:In other words even in your own home you CANNOT leave gun cabinet keys lying around they MUST be seperately secured (or on your person)


So you are saying a court of law would condemn you for having been broken into, when your house is secure?

Come again?

Want to phone a friend mate?

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:35 am

Didge wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:In other words even in your own home you CANNOT leave gun cabinet keys lying around they MUST be seperately secured (or on your person)


So you are saying a court of law would condemn you for having been broken into, when your house is secure?

Come again?

tis true didge ...I assure you.....ask moley, or nicko

Want to phone a friend mate?

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:37 am

Lord Foul wrote:tis true didge ...I assure you.....ask moley, or nicko



So you want me to ask too very intelligent people I respect, that have no defined legal education?

I respect them both and yet they cannot answer for you

The point is, whether your house is classed as secure, when its locked

You seem to claim, its not, how so?

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:39 am

I dont think you realise just how onerous the requirements to hold firearms are.


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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:42 am

Lord Foul wrote:I dont think you realise just how onerous the requirements to hold firearms are.


Misdirection mate

I am quite happy to admit, that i do not, but as you posted the law, I am now well acquainted with them

So my point still stands

How, if your house is secure and then a thief broke into your house that was secure and locked. Being that he saw your keys on the kitchen table and by chance found your firearms. Then make you culpable by law?

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:44 am

didge..its NOT what I claim..its what IS...

fgs thats the LAW ...moley and nicko both will know this without having to be lawyers....When you get your certificate delivered by plod (or the FEO..himself) HE gives you the lowdown on whats what...and he means it.....there is no room for manoeuver, the law is as it sits, and theres no getting out of it.....

IF youi get broken into and your keys are then liberated from the safe or by violence /threat of violence from you personally then theres no blame
If you get broken into and you have left em lying around ...you are toast

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:47 am

Didge wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:I dont think you realise just how onerous the requirements to hold firearms are.


Misdirection mate

I am quite happy to admit, that i do not, but as you posted the law, I am now well acquainted with them

no, you are not, you have read them with no understanding of HOW they are applied....

So my point still stands

How, if your house is secure and then a thief broke into your house that was secure and locked. Being that he saw your keys on the kitchen table and by chance found your firearms. Then make you culpable by law?

yes...since it is obligatory upon you to not only secure your house and the guns...but the means of easy access to those guns (i.e the keys)

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:49 am

Lord Foul wrote:didge..its NOT what I claim..its what IS...

fgs thats the LAW ...moley and nicko both will know this without having to be lawyers....When you get your certificate delivered by plod (or the FEO..himself) HE gives you the lowdown on whats what...and he means it.....there is no room for manoeuver, the law is as it sits, and theres no getting out of it.....

IF youi get broken  into and your keys are then liberated from the safe or by violence /threat of violence from you personally then theres no blame
If you get broken into and you have left em lying around ...you are toast

No, you keep claiming the law and yet you cannot answer this one simple question

You posted the law, based around having a secure premesis.

We know you have that

So it does not matter what PC plod lays the law down on. Every insurance company does that, based around theft

So your claim that if you get broken into your secure premises and that they then have access to them, you are to blame, its you that does not understand the law.

The point is on access here, based on the law.

Your premisis was secure, yet they boke into your premesis

Once inside, you cannot be held accountable, if they chanced upon your keys, that could be inside your coat pocket, or on the table.

No court of law would prosecute you on that

Read back on your own link mate

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:52 am

If it didnt work like that one may as well just hang the shot gun over the living room fireplace (a shocking place to put one considering the effect of heat on that nice walnut stock)

since if the secure place of storage isnt secure since its keys are just lying around then it may as well not exist.

would you write the combination of the family silver vault on the vault door or on the kitchen whiteboard?

would you write your pin on your credit card or on a piece of paper in your wallet?


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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:52 am

Lord Foul wrote:
Didge wrote:

Misdirection mate

I am quite happy to admit, that i do not, but as you posted the law, I am now well acquainted with them

no, you are not, you have read them with no understanding of HOW they are applied....

So my point still stands

How, if your house is secure and then a thief broke into your house that was secure and locked. Being that he saw your keys on the kitchen table and by chance found your firearms. Then make you culpable by law?

yes...since it is obligatory upon you to not only secure your house and the guns...but the means of easy access to those guns (i.e the keys)

Moving the goal posts again

You know you are

How ios it easy access to your guns, when your house is locked?

And that you have keys, that require unlocking something to gain access to those guns. None of which the theives would know?

That is not easy access

They would have to happen upon your guns by chance

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:53 am

Lord Foul wrote:If it didnt work like that one may as well just hang the shot gun over the living room fireplace (a shocking place to put one considering the effect of heat on that nice walnut stock)

since if the secure place of storage isnt secure since its keys are just lying around then it may as well not exist.

would you write the combination of the family silver vault on the vault door or on the kitchen whiteboard?

would you write your pin on your credit card or on a piece of paper in your wallet?


So you are saying your house is not secure?

You know you have no leg to stand on?

Would any court of law, say you had secured your guns, when they were locked up, in a secure safe/cabinet, where your house was secure? And the thieves chances on your keys or even saw them?

Take as long as you like

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:57 am

Didge wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:didge..its NOT what I claim..its what IS...

fgs thats the LAW ...moley and nicko both will know this without having to be lawyers....When you get your certificate delivered by plod (or the FEO..himself) HE gives you the lowdown on whats what...and he means it.....there is no room for manoeuver, the law is as it sits, and theres no getting out of it.....

IF youi get broken  into and your keys are then liberated from the safe or by violence /threat of violence from you personally then theres no blame
If you get broken into and you have left em lying around ...you are toast

No, you keep claiming the law and yet you cannot answer this one simple question

You posted the law, based around having a secure premesis.

We know you have that

So it does not matter what PC plod lays the law down on. Every insurance company does that, based around theft


fkin hilarious...

So your claim that if you get broken into your secure premises and that they then have access to them, you are to blame, its you that does not understand the law.

The point is on access here, based on the law.

Your premisis was secure, yet they boke into your premesis

Once inside, you cannot be held accountable, if they chanced upon your keys, that could be inside your coat pocket, or on the table.

No court of law would prosecute you on that

erm yes...they would, becasue of the obligation to secure the keys ...SEPERATELTY to the security of the premises

it does NOT say keep within secure premises (only) the law imposes a further restriction in that EVEN WITHIN secure premises, the keys MUST be kept seperately secure (particularly in light of the fact that others who are NOT authorised (family/visitors) may well be present)



Read back on your own link mate

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:00 am

This is hilarious

So apparantly according to Victor, he is to blame, if someone breaks into his house, and they have no keys.

Come again?

The keys would be secure, as they are within a locked premesis

Ie, your house

You are just making shit up as you go along, mainly as you cannot admit you are wrong

So if you have no relatives, how does your poor excuse work now?

Last chance

Try again

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:05 am

didge , you're an arse, you know that dont you.

I'm Telling you thats how the law stands...

you have to
1 secure the premises,
2 secure the guns (in a suitable cabinet to some obscure BS number)
3)finally secure the keys to that cabinet so there is no chance of even a burglar getting his mitts on em, let alone any family member/visitor etc

and if you find THAT unbeleiveable....

if plod wants to inspect my guns/cabinet I cant even let HIM kmow where I keep the keys....

if say, they were hidden I'd be within my rights to ask him to wait outside while I obtained them. I can by law require him to sit in the kitchen (for instance) whilst I get them from the safe...to conceal where the key safe is ......and only THEN may he proceed with the inspection




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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:09 am

Didge wrote:This is hilarious

So apparantly according to Victor, he is to blame, if someone breaks into his house, and they have no keys.

Come again?

The keys would be secure, as they are within a locked premesis

Ie, your house

You are just making shit up as you go along, mainly as you cannot admit you are wrong

So if you have no relatives, how does your poor excuse work now?

Last chance

Try again

I'll change that...you are an argumentative arse....

you think you know everything about anything...I can assure you you dont, and this is one area that you clearly know bugger all about
you are merely ranting on with what YOU think SHOULD be...
I'm telling you what IS.

I dont give a flying fuck what you THINK is the law, when I've had that law explained in depth to me by any number of other gun owners, the FEO for our local force AND by BASC, our shooting organisation.

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:11 am

Lord Foul wrote:didge , you're an arse, you know that dont you.
Didge wrote:More insults and misdirection,
Yes i am an arse, but a very clever one

I'm Telling you thats how the law stands...

you have to
1 secure the premises,
Didge wrote:You have
2 secure the guns (in a suitable cabinet to some obscure BS number)
Didge wrote:No it does not on numbers, it requires it to be locked
3)finally secure the keys to that cabinet so there is no chance of even a burglar getting his mitts on em, let alone any family member/visitor etc
Didge wrote:Please show me where it states that in the law?

and if you find THAT unbeleiveable....

if plod wants to inspect my guns/cabinet I cant even let HIM kmow where I keep the keys....
Didge wrote:But you have to let him know where the guns are and with a warrant he can gain access.

That has to be the dumbest point you have made

if say, they were hidden I'd be within my rights to ask him to wait outside while I obtained them. I can by law require him to sit in the kitchen (for instance) whilst I get them from the safe...to conceal where the key safe is ......and only THEN may he proceed with the inspection


Misdirection again

Lets break this down for the slow witted

Are you saying your house is not secure and that you would be prosecuted, even if you had drones armed with Gatling guns. That you were still broken into. Where by they picked up your keys and then tried every lock. To then you being culable for this

This proves my point, that you cannot admit when wrong.

Show me a lawyer worth his salt that backs you, with the law on this?

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:12 am

Lord Foul wrote:
Didge wrote:This is hilarious

So apparantly according to Victor, he is to blame, if someone breaks into his house, and they have no keys.

Come again?

The keys would be secure, as they are within a locked premesis

Ie, your house

You are just making shit up as you go along, mainly as you cannot admit you are wrong

So if you have no relatives, how does your poor excuse work now?

Last chance

Try again

I'll change that...you are an argumentative arse....

you think you know everything about anything...I can assure you you dont, and this is one area that you clearly know bugger all about
you are merely ranting on with what YOU think SHOULD be...
I'm telling you what IS.

I dont give a flying fuck what you THINK is the law, when I've had that law explained in depth to me by any number of other gun owners, the FEO for our local force AND by BASC, our shooting organisation.

So you are a snowflake

Seriously dry your eyes out mate

You are a sore loser

At least i have the decency to see when you are right and admit when you are

You have shown you are no better than smelly when he ignores evidence on climate change

You want to get personal, bring it on mate.

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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Lord Foul on Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:23 am

point 2

yes it does ....the cabinet has to be to AT LEAST BS7558

point 3

9.17.
The term “unauthorised access” has been held to include the constructive possession
that can occur where persons other than the certificate holder have access to the keys
for security devices, as well as access gained by criminal entry to the premises etc. Thus
any keys to any security device should be kept secure, with access limited to authorised
persons.
This is especially important if there are children present in the premises.
Knowledge by an unauthorised person of the location of the keys or to the combination to
the locks may lead to a breach of the statutory security condition
. In the case of Regina v
Chelmsford Crown Court, Ex parte Farrer (2000) it was agreed that deliberately providing
172
Guide on Firearms Licensing Law
information of the whereabouts of the keys was an offence. It was “reasonably practicable”
for Mr Farrer not to tell his mother where the keys were kept in this case.
19.18.
The Court of Appeal case of Ex Parte Farrer (2000) confirmed the proposition that, if
other people who are not authorised to possess the firearm/shotgun have access to it,
the firearm/shotgun will not have been stored securely to prevent access by unauthorised
persons
. The Court of Appeal found that the term “practicable” in the Firearms Rules
means “feasible in practice” not socially convenient or “reasonable”. The court found that it
was feasible for Mr Farrer to have prevented his mother having access, and that he was in
breach of the conditions of the certificate because he gave his mother access to the key.
What is required is for the certificate holder to keep the whereabouts of the key or security combination unknown to anyone but themselves

that will do for the law...taking all those points into consideration ....you have to secure the keys SEPERATELY and in addition to your household security.

as for plod...if he's got a warrant thats a different matter...but for inspections and any other reasonable vist...he cant be allowed to know where my keys are.....(an inspection is not a warrant matter, as its a condition of your certificate to allow inspection at reasonable times..if they come with a warrant your should start worrying.

_________________
If at any time in 2017 I have annoyed you, pissed you off or said the wrong thing....Suck it up snowflake, cause 2018 AINT gonna be any different

There are those who's opinion I value, there are those who's opinion I neither value or scorn, and then there are those who's opinion I just ignore as insignificant...I can assure you the latter outnumber the first two combined by a whole order of magnitude


[b].(It's hard to remember that the task is to drain the swamp, when you are up to your arse in alligators)
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Re: Are women who wear short skirts responsible for being raped?

Post by Didge on Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:27 am

Yes you have just repeated the same text never understanding it

Thus show me how thieves have access to your firearms?

When your house is secure?

You really hate being wrong, dont you mate?

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