If god is all powerful why does he allow sin?

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

Apparently homosexuality is a sin - if you put a certain spin on the bible texts.

Yet it is claimed god is all powerful.

If he is all powerful why did he create homosexuality?

If he is all powerful why does he refuse to help those who believe that interpretation of the bible when they beg him to help them change?

Surely the evidence is that if god does exist he is one sadistic bugger.

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:39 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

it did answer your question ...lol if the bible says Jesus died before the earth was formed do you think that my all powerful, all knowing God has to work within the normal constraints of time, think about it... Smile 

on second thoughts don't think about it your head may explode, no actually do think about it... :/pwn://: 

 ://?roflmao?/: 

So Jesus has been around twice now.
So why is the coming of Jesus twice predetermined?
Again I know you are upset when you start to use the owned sign, ha ha ha, seriously I love it, the reality is revaluations is set, so it is claimed who God will save, that means predetermined, that means nobody has a choice.
Seriously this is what Christianity is the work of men, why it is illogical for this deity to exist  

my goodness can you read...

as if Jesus had to come twice, certain things are set in stone, that is what God has ordained, such as the plan of redemption for all mankind etc.. God chooses to limit his power by allowing freewill...we are not all born believers so we can assume he wants us to chose to follow him, that is our choice our freewill, we have a destiny mapped out to go to heaven, we have a destiny to go to hell, we have our own destiny to become rich and famous, our own seldom pans out, leaving the two main contenders, heaven or hell, God will make events to inform us he exists so we can chose to believe, as i said he limits his own ability by allowing us free choice, he knows the beginning, he knows what the end is but has the power to effect the end result...

to me that is all powerful and all knowing.... Smile 

but i'm sure your mind cannot comprehend this didge...

what makes you think that an all powerful God has any limits at all, whether on time, logic, fate, events, destiny... Smile 

is it human logic to believe a being so powerful exists that can make the universe and everything in it...so why limit that all all powerful being with any of your logic...

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:54 pm

heavenly father wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

 ://?roflmao?/: 

So Jesus has been around twice now.
So why is the coming of Jesus twice predetermined?
Again I know you are upset when you start to use the owned sign, ha ha ha, seriously I love it, the reality is revaluations is set, so it is claimed who God will save, that means predetermined, that means nobody has a choice.
Seriously this is what Christianity is the work of men, why it is illogical for this deity to exist  

my goodness can you read...

as if Jesus had to come twice, certain things are set in stone, that is what God has ordained, such as the plan of redemption for all mankind etc.. God chooses to limit his power by allowing freewill...we are not all born believers so we can assume he wants us to chose to follow him, that is our choice our freewill, we have a destiny mapped out to go to heaven, we have a destiny to go to hell, we have our own destiny to become rich and famous, our own seldom pans out, leaving the two main contenders, heaven or hell, God will make events to inform us he exists so we can chose to believe, as i said he limits his own ability by allowing us free choice, he knows the beginning, he knows what the end is but has the power to effect the end result...

to me that is all powerful and all knowing.... Smile 

but i'm sure your mind cannot comprehend this didge...

what makes you think that an all powerful God has any limits at all, whether on time, logic, fate, events, destiny... Smile 

is it human logic to believe a being so powerful exists that can make the universe and everything in it...so why limit that all all powerful being with any of your logic...


Absolutely hilarious, again revaluations shows the future is set according to religious bollocks, thus he cannot limit his power if he knows what anyone will do in the future. If he was to do that then the future could change from what he knows is going to happen and would thus prove him wrong

DOH

The fact is you cannot work out something so simple and hence if revelations is needed means God knows people will fuck up and it is required, that means the future is again set, as there would be no need to say it will happen but it could happen, this is not the case. According to the religious bollocks, he will come again, thus clearly God knows in advance this will happen because people do not follow him. Thus again this shows the future is set and predetermined

DOH

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:56 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

my goodness can you read...

as if Jesus had to come twice, certain things are set in stone, that is what God has ordained, such as the plan of redemption for all mankind etc.. God chooses to limit his power by allowing freewill...we are not all born believers so we can assume he wants us to chose to follow him, that is our choice our freewill, we have a destiny mapped out to go to heaven, we have a destiny to go to hell, we have our own destiny to become rich and famous, our own seldom pans out, leaving the two main contenders, heaven or hell, God will make events to inform us he exists so we can chose to believe, as i said he limits his own ability by allowing us free choice, he knows the beginning, he knows what the end is but has the power to effect the end result...

to me that is all powerful and all knowing.... Smile 

but i'm sure your mind cannot comprehend this didge...

what makes you think that an all powerful God has any limits at all, whether on time, logic, fate, events, destiny... Smile 

is it human logic to believe a being so powerful exists that can make the universe and everything in it...so why limit that all all powerful being with any of your logic...


Absolutely hilarious, again revaluations shows the future is set according to religious bollocks, thus he cannot limit his power if he knows what anyone will do in the future. If he was to do that then the future could change from what he knows is going to happen and would thus prove him wrong

DOH

The fact is you cannot work out something so simple and hence if revelations is needed means God knows people will fuck up and it is required, that means the future is again set, as there would be no need to say it will happen but it could happen, this is not the case. According to the religious bollocks, he will come again, thus clearly God knows in advance this will happen because people do not follow him. Thus again this shows the future is set and predetermined

DOH

WWWHHHHAATTT.....you are not for real... Smile 

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:58 pm

It is pretty obvious what didge is saying HF- is this another failure to understand something more than a sentence long?

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:00 pm

Eilzel wrote:It is pretty obvious what didge is saying HF- is this another failure to understand something more than a sentence long?


lol of course it is for him Eilzel

Revelations is the Achilles Heel to any made up bullshit they come out with

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:08 pm

oops gay back up alert//lol

if we all close our eyes and say together it isn't so, it might come true...lol

 Smile 

how anyone can think an all powerful, all knowing God cannot do anything he wants is beyond me..

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:11 pm

heavenly father wrote:oops gay back up alert//lol

if we all close our eyes and say together it isn't so, it might come true...lol

 Smile 

how anyone can think an all powerful, all knowing God cannot do anything he wants is beyond me..


Okay lets take this down to your level of stupidity

Do you agree that in Christianity everyone is born with sin?

Without sin there would be no need of Jesus to come?

Did Adam and Eve have a choice when they ate the apple from the tree of knowledge, when it is stated they had no knowledge of good and evil?

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:25 pm

heavenly father wrote:oops gay back up alert//lol

if we all close our eyes and say together it isn't so, it might come true...lol

 Smile 

how anyone can think an all powerful, all knowing God cannot do anything he wants is beyond me..

Does it matter so much to you that I'm gay? Why did you need to mention that?

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:39 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:

"The fact is you cannot understand one simple thing, am all knowing deity would see all, thus every move you make in advance, thus it is then predetermined and you would have no free will"
DOH what on earth do you think everyone has been telling you all along?

DOH


so you have given your understanding of predestination which prevents free will

now perhaps you can give your understanding of free will

So again you never answer any of my points but keep expecting me to answer yours , utterly pathetic, free will to me is the ability to act at my own discretion. Which of course has no bearing on the concept of an all knowing deity
Again if there is a choice, why Revelations?
Surely as you claim people have a choice to avoid this happening, but this is not the case is it according to scriptures?
The biggest fact you ignore is God according to your myths knows already who he is going to save, that means no choice or free will

people have been talking about predestination, you chief amongst them didge, and in doing so you've confused predestination with free will  ::D:: 

your point (singular) is valid as far as predestination is concerned

as far as the concept of free will is concerned, you haven't made any points that i need to address apart from saying the same thing over and over again,and when you are the one who cannot comprehend a thing it simply indicates a lack of understanding and deeper thinking on your behalf, not ours.

i cannot force you to understand how freewill works, all i can do is offer you an explanation, if you lack the intellect to understand the explanation, then im afraid i cannot help you with that

P.S this statement you made??

amazing

"Again I have free will because I am not like you led by a figment of imagination."

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ::smthg::  ::smthg:: 




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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:44 pm

Hilarious, I am sure your figment of imagination does not allow you to comprehend anything with sense smelly as all you keep doing is ignoring the issue of an all knowing deity to now go on about how you would would have free will believing in one, just a second

 ://?roflmao?/: ://?roflmao?/: 

What you have failed to do throughout is show how it is possible to have free will with an all knowing deity

DOH

So again you ignore all points and have no answers, again ever so easy

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:50 pm

and why would i show you anything???

you have spent pages upon pages making a spectacle of yourself arguing against freewill so even if i were to present you with an argument that you agreed with and understood,you would never acknowledge publicly, because you have invested so much of your public opinion to opposing freewill, a back down now would make you a fool.

so a nonsensical argument results in the same public dismissal as an argument you could privately agree with

the bottom line is that your entire argument is a one trick pony which is based on "god is all knowing therefore freewill is not possible" its akin to the child like logic of "this block is not red therefore its yellow"

this argument presented an obstacle once, i thought my way around it

you clearly do not possess the thought capability that i do, and on that front i cannot show you anything that will help you overcome the obstacle of your argumnet

its funny that you pride yourself on being more intelligent than me and yet you cannot even figure out how freewill works despite claiming to know everything about everything


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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:56 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:and why would i show you anything???

you have spent pages upon pages making a spectacle of yourself arguing against freewill so even if i were to present you with an argument that you agreed with and understood,you would never acknowledge publicly, because you have invested so much of your public opinion to opposing freewill, a back down now would make you a fool.  

so a nonsensical argument results in the same public dismissal as an argument you could privately agree with

the bottom line is that your entire argument is a one trick pony which is based on "god is all knowing therefore freewill is not possible" its akin to the child like logic of "this block is not red therefore its yellow"

this argument presented an obstacle once, i thought my way around it

you clearly do not possess the thought capability that i do, and on that front i cannot show you anything that will help you overcome the obstacle of your argumnet

its funny that you pride yourself on being more intelligent than me and yet you cannot even figure out how freewill works despite claiming to know everything about everything  


lol Myself?

I think many here have tried to educate you on the fact you do not have an utter clue what you are talking about and it is very much irrelevant if you feel you think you have found a way round, when you cannot even show one, ha ha so funny.

I know very well how free will works and know I have free will, except in Christian theology it does not work, being you are a Christian and have tried to avoid answering anything that backs the view from the scriptures and common sense that free will is impossible with an all knowing deity.

That is what this debate is about not whether free will exists, only that within a Christian deity free will would be impossible. Now you can ignore everything all you want, you either are a Christian or not, if you are then the conception you follow does not have free will, hence the illogical belief you follow.

So the debate was not on whether we have free will, but whether you would ever have any with the Christian concept.

DOH,

Stop trying to worm your way out when you have been arguing from the Christian view point

PMSL

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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:03 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
smelly_bandit wrote:and why would i show you anything???

you have spent pages upon pages making a spectacle of yourself arguing against freewill so even if i were to present you with an argument that you agreed with and understood,you would never acknowledge publicly, because you have invested so much of your public opinion to opposing freewill, a back down now would make you a fool.  

so a nonsensical argument results in the same public dismissal as an argument you could privately agree with

the bottom line is that your entire argument is a one trick pony which is based on "god is all knowing therefore freewill is not possible" its akin to the child like logic of "this block is not red therefore its yellow"

this argument presented an obstacle once, i thought my way around it

you clearly do not possess the thought capability that i do, and on that front i cannot show you anything that will help you overcome the obstacle of your argumnet

its funny that you pride yourself on being more intelligent than me and yet you cannot even figure out how freewill works despite claiming to know everything about everything  


lol Myself?

I think many here have tried to educate you on the fact you do not have an utter clue what you are talking about and it is very much irrelevant if you feel you think you have found a way round, when you cannot even show one, ha ha so funny.

I know very well how free will works and know I have free will, except in Christian theology it does not work, being you are a Christian and have tried to avoid answering anything that backs the view from the scriptures and common sense that free will is impossible with an all knowing deity.

That is what this debate is about not whether free will exists, only that within a Christian deity free will would be impossible. Now you can ignore everything all you want, you either are a Christian or not, if you are then the conception you follow does not have free will, hence the illogical belief you follow.

So the debate was not on whether we have free will, but whether you would ever have any with the Christian concept.

DOH,

Stop trying to worm your way out when you have been arguing from the Christian view point

PMSL

it wasn't difficult to think around the argument you presented which is in reality an argument on why predestination doesn't allow freewill


you have yet to touch on freewill

hell you cannot even define what predestination and freewill are as you understand them

how do you expect to educate anyone on concepts you don't even tell the difference between???

i would suggest typing it in capitals, maybe someone will take notice of you


 ::attn::  ::attn::  ::attn::  ::attn:: 


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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:07 pm

smelly_bandit wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

lol Myself?

I think many here have tried to educate you on the fact you do not have an utter clue what you are talking about and it is very much irrelevant if you feel you think you have found a way round, when you cannot even show one, ha ha so funny.

I know very well how free will works and know I have free will, except in Christian theology it does not work, being you are a Christian and have tried to avoid answering anything that backs the view from the scriptures and common sense that free will is impossible with an all knowing deity.

That is what this debate is about not whether free will exists, only that within a Christian deity free will would be impossible. Now you can ignore everything all you want, you either are a Christian or not, if you are then the conception you follow does not have free will, hence the illogical belief you follow.

So the debate was not on whether we have free will, but whether you would ever have any with the Christian concept.

DOH,

Stop trying to worm your way out when you have been arguing from the Christian view point

PMSL

it wasn't difficult to think around the argument you presented which is in reality an argument on why predestination doesn't allow freewill


you have yet to touch on freewill

hell you cannot even define what predestination and freewill are as you understand them  

how do you expect to educate anyone on concepts you don't even tell the difference between???

i would suggest typing it in capitals, maybe someone will take notice of you


 ::attn::  ::attn::  ::attn::  ::attn:: 



lol more waffle, more avoidance and more gobbledygook, smelly in a nutshell.

Further after he has done that he will then continue to avoid with detraction claiming the opposing debate does not know the difference.

PMSL

Maybe he will provide an answer to the fact he needs to climb out of a hundred foot deep hole he dug all by himself

Good luck


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Post by Guest on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:40 pm

I've given you ample opportunity to clearly state what the difference between. Predestination and freewill is

If you knew the difference you would have shown us by now

Your call

*insert bored shrugging smiley here*

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:18 am

PMSL

I have shown clearly that free will would be impossible with predestination (clearly showing the difference DOH), what you are doing is ignoring all the points I raised and playing the child refusing to debate, which is no problem to me.
Now you can actually be adult enough to engage in this or keep coming out with lame excuses all the time.

Or post why you think I am wrong

The artful smelly dodger

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:49 am

if God does know all the answers instantly to every decision you make is he still all knowing... Smile 

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:40 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Indeed you did get it wrong again, just like you fail to understand many things


Hi again Zack
Sorry but you do not have science to back you up here, what you have is relativity and a concept based off that which does not have any proof and yes I have read further, It is like all the scientific Quranic claims made by many Muslims today making something fit to their belief, nothing more.
You never used once scientific explanations lol, you gave a link to one person of which again I am not convinced you understand this concept being as you cannot and have refused to back it up in your own words  

It's idiotic comments like 'refused to back it up in your own words' that shows you have lost the debate. Grow the fuck up, bruv. I thought you wanted a serious debate. But it seems denial is your only option. Really thought you'd never resort to Smelly Bandit tactics.

I'll give you one last try and take it even more slowly:

Relativity says that time is not absolute and is not the same for all observers.

2 people who are not in motion share the same instance of time.

When one person moves away relative to the other, space and therefore time stretches - just like you see the stars as they were in their past. Neither person is sharing the same instance of time or now slice any longer. If the moving observer had the technology to view a video of the stationary person, they would see that person (or place) in the past.

Conversely, when one person moves towards the stationary observer, spacd and therefore time contracts. The person is motion is now seeing the other in their 'future' time.

If you really needed me to spell this out for you, then you obviously didn't do any research. The only conclusion: you got scared. You should never be scared of the truth.



Finally he provides an answer, well done on space.

Not on whether it is a fact this concept of his, again I have been reading this for the last few days.
The only reason you are so ardent on this being true is more to do with the undeniable fact without it, your faith is flawed, because you know an all knowing deity means the future would be set and this is the only reason you are clutching at straws to the concept humans now do not have a choice.
Yes I have been reading this theory, of which it is a theory on time, of which again there are many theories on times as shown to you, none proven as fact



Still a concept, so please spare me the bullshit zack, this has all to do with your faith hanging by a thread, that you use this to back a belief in your own deity




Have a read

http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4020-6318-3_9#page-1


https://sites.google.com/site/abriefhistoryoftimelessness/IntroducingRelativity/introduction-to-relativity


I shall await your apology

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:52 pm

In physics, the relativity of simultaneity is the concept that distant simultaneity – whether two spatially separated events occur at the same time – is not absolute, but depends on the observer's reference frame.
According to the special theory of relativity, it is impossible to say in an absolute sense whether two distinct events occur at the same time if those events are separated in space, such as a car crash in London and another in New York. The question of whether the events are simultaneous is relative: in some reference frames the two accidents may happen at the same time, in other frames (in a different state of motion relative to the events) the crash in London may occur first, and in still other frames the New York crash may occur first. However, if the two events are causally connected ("event A causes event B"), the causal order is preserved (i.e., "event A precedes event B") in all frames of reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity


Again you are backing a concept Zack

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:01 pm

oh goodie a copy and paste war.. Smile 

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:03 pm

heavenly father wrote:oh goodie a copy and paste war.. Smile 



Well for you to have any understanding I will look up and see if there are any links designed to teach 5 year olds

 Smile

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:07 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:oh goodie a copy and paste war.. Smile 



Well for you to have any understanding I will look up and see if there are any links designed to teach 5 year olds

 Smile

don't be silly, you wouldn't understand them yourself... Smile 

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:09 pm

heavenly father wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:



Well for you to have any understanding I will look up and see if there are any links designed to teach 5 year olds

 Smile

don't be silly, you wouldn't understand them yourself... Smile 


 ://?roflmao?/: 

Oh please go and play with your bible, as you do not even read the book let alone understand it.

Am sure you can make paper planes out of the pages

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:33 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
heavenly father wrote:

don't be silly, you wouldn't understand them yourself... Smile 


 ://?roflmao?/: 

Oh please go and play with your bible, as you do not even read the book let alone understand it.

Am sure you can make paper planes out of the pages

read it understood it no problem, unlike you who claims to have read it and dismissed it yet shown no understanding of it... Smile 

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:34 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Finally he provides an answer, well done on space.

Not on whether it is a fact this concept of his, again I have been reading this for the last few days.
The only reason you are so ardent on this being true is more to do with the undeniable fact without it, your faith is flawed, because you know an all knowing deity means the future would be set and this is the only reason you are clutching at straws to the concept humans now do not have a choice.
Yes I have been reading this theory, of which it is a theory on time, of which again there are many theories on times as shown to you, none proven as fact



Still a concept, so please spare me the bullshit zack, this has all to do with your faith hanging by a thread, that you use this to back a belief in your own deity




Have a read

http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4020-6318-3_9#page-1


https://sites.google.com/site/abriefhistoryoftimelessness/IntroducingRelativity/introduction-to-relativity


I shall await your apology

Concepts are abstract. That's the first point. If you think this is just a concept, then see the YouTube link in the Now Time thread (it's back up). You'll find some real scientists talking about the same thing.

Second, there is no difference between time and space. Both are intrinsically linked. If you didn't get that, you failed.

Thirdly, you didn't answer or reply to my 'scientific' post - can't you do that. Instead you copied someone. Can't you reply in your own words or are you also a hypocrite?

Then we have the real reason why you are so defensive and in complete denial - your rant about religion speaks volumes bruv.

Consider yourself schooled. No apology required.  



Schooled on what a concept, behave and I take it you know what I saying to be true, basically because you have no case to back as a fact, it is quite pathetic of you Zack and you are acting as you once did on Sky knowing full well you have no case here.

I am no expert but I do know when something is a concept, you though are desperate to prove it as a fact because of your religion, knowing full well your faith is a concept of an all knowing deity, which means no free will.

So I will await your apology for acting like a child.

Stephen Hawking explains in A Brief History of Time: 

We could still imagine that there is a set of laws that determines events completely for some supernatural being, who could observe the present state of the universe without disturbing it. However, such models of the universe are not of much interest to us mortals. It seems better to employ the principle known as Occam's razor and cut out all the features of the theory which cannot be observed.

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:36 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:In physics, the relativity of simultaneity is the concept that distant simultaneity – whether two spatially separated events occur at the same time – is not absolute, but depends on the observer's reference frame.
According to the special theory of relativity, it is impossible to say in an absolute sense whether two distinct events occur at the same time if those events are separated in space, such as a car crash in London and another in New York. The question of whether the events are simultaneous is relative: in some reference frames the two accidents may happen at the same time, in other frames (in a different state of motion relative to the events) the crash in London may occur first, and in still other frames the New York crash may occur first. However, if the two events are causally connected ("event A causes event B"), the causal order is preserved (i.e., "event A precedes event B") in all frames of reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity


Again you are backing a concept Zack

Are these your own words or are you a hypocrite.

Go see my YouTube link in the now thread.

You'll still be in denial but at least there'll be some real scientists exposing your idiocy.



I have watched it, my you are so desperate it is funny, I place you are a par with smelly now and you act as you once did on sky, like a child, utterly pathetic

I suggest you grow up Zack, you don;t I guess like to be challenged.

We both know this is all about your faith, which is why more than anything you are getting both angry and upset

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:37 pm

still not sure on what basis you can say what an all powerful all knowing God can and cannot do... Smile 

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:39 pm

heavenly father wrote:still not sure on what basis you can say what an all powerful all knowing God can and cannot do... Smile 


All knowing is easy to define, especially when the bible clearly defines knowing the future with this deity

DOH

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:45 pm

Have a read Zack, again I am no expert but can understand when things are easy to understand:







So if things in the past and future exist in the exact same way that things in the present exist, then doesn’t that mean that they’re fixed?  If my future is the past for someone else who’s around right now (and necessarily moving very fast like in the last diagram), then does that somehow determine the future?  The answer to that question is: it doesn’t matter, but for two interesting reasons.
First, if you consider someone else who’s around “now”, then they’re not in your past light cone and they’re not in your’s (in the top diagram the “nows” are always in the purple regions).  That means that, for example, some of Bob’s future will be in Alice’s past, but neither of them can know what that future holds until they wait a while.  Bob has to wait until he’s “in the future”, and Alice has to wait for the signal delay before she can know anything.  Either way, the events of Bob’s future are unknowable regardless of who (in Bob’s present) is asking.  The future is a lock and the only key is patience.


Answer gravy: The second reason it doesn’t matter if the future exists involves a quick jump into quantum mechanics (and arguably should have involved a jump into a new, separate post).  There could be an issue with the future existing (and thus being predetermined) because that flies in the face of quantum randomness which basically says (and this is glossing over a lot) that the result of an experiment doesn’t exist until after that experiment is done.  This is embodied by Bell’s theorem, which is a little difficult to grasp.  So Schrödinger’s Cat is both alive and dead until its box is opened.  But if, in the future, the box has already been opened and the Cat is found to be alive, then the Cat was always alive.  Things like superposition and all of the usual awesomeness of quantum mechanics go away.
But, before you stress out and start researching to try to really understand the problem in that last paragraph: don’t.  Turns out there isn’t an issue.  Even if the future does exist, it doesn’t mean that events are set in stone in any useful or important way.  In the (poorly named) Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, every thing that can happen does, and those many ways for things to happen are described by a (fantastically complicated) quantum wave function.  That wave function is set in stone by an extant future, but that doesn’t tell you exactly what will happen.  In the case of Schrödinger’s Cat, the Cat is in a super-position of both alive and dead before the box is opened, and afterward it’s still alive and dead but the observer is “caught up” in the super-position.


http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/06/q-do-the-past-and-future-exist-if-they-do-does-that-mean-that-the-future-is-determined-and-what-does-that-mean-for-quantum-randomness/

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:46 pm

Again I shall await your apology Zack

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:55 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:Have a read Zack, again I am no expert but can understand when things are easy to understand:







So if things in the past and future exist in the exact same way that things in the present exist, then doesn’t that mean that they’re fixed?  If my future is the past for someone else who’s around right now (and necessarily moving very fast like in the last diagram), then does that somehow determine the future?  The answer to that question is: it doesn’t matter, but for two interesting reasons.
First, if you consider someone else who’s around “now”, then they’re not in your past light cone and they’re not in your’s (in the top diagram the “nows” are always in the purple regions).  That means that, for example, some of Bob’s future will be in Alice’s past, but neither of them can know what that future holds until they wait a while.  Bob has to wait until he’s “in the future”, and Alice has to wait for the signal delay before she can know anything.  Either way, the events of Bob’s future are unknowable regardless of who (in Bob’s present) is asking.  The future is a lock and the only key is patience.


Answer gravy: The second reason it doesn’t matter if the future exists involves a quick jump into quantum mechanics (and arguably should have involved a jump into a new, separate post).  There could be an issue with the future existing (and thus being predetermined) because that flies in the face of quantum randomness which basically says (and this is glossing over a lot) that the result of an experiment doesn’t exist until after that experiment is done.  This is embodied by Bell’s theorem, which is a little difficult to grasp.  So Schrödinger’s Cat is both alive and dead until its box is opened.  But if, in the future, the box has already been opened and the Cat is found to be alive, then the Cat was always alive.  Things like superposition and all of the usual awesomeness of quantum mechanics go away.
But, before you stress out and start researching to try to really understand the problem in that last paragraph: don’t.  Turns out there isn’t an issue.  Even if the future does exist, it doesn’t mean that events are set in stone in any useful or important way.  In the (poorly named) Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, every thing that can happen does, and those many ways for things to happen are described by a (fantastically complicated) quantum wave function.  That wave function is set in stone by an extant future, but that doesn’t tell you exactly what will happen.  In the case of Schrödinger’s Cat, the Cat is in a super-position of both alive and dead before the box is opened, and afterward it’s still alive and dead but the observer is “caught up” in the super-position.


http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/06/q-do-the-past-and-future-exist-if-they-do-does-that-mean-that-the-future-is-determined-and-what-does-that-mean-for-quantum-randomness/

Lol! Let me get this straight... You expect me to explain the science in my own words but we can't expect the same from you. That's hypocrisy.

The fact you are now bringing quantum mechanics into this equation is another demonstration of your ignorance. Do you actually no the difference?

We were talking RELATIVITY, you prime numpty. You got one thing right, you are no expert. Go see the YouTube video on the now thread.



Well if you can only offer insult I guess my points have proven your case to be flawed, and only a concept, my you really get upset when you back something as fact when nobody can prove otherwise.

So I though you had changed but the real Zack is standing up and being counted, more hell bent on backing his faith in Allah than any real sense.

Your religion is flawed, one day you will see that and on that I wish you luck, again I am no expert but can understand what the experts are saying.

I watched the video and have read ebough no on other concepts to know your is only a concept only, unless of course you want to travel into the future and prove me wrong?

No, didn't think so

Grow up

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:58 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:Again I shall await your apology Zack

For exposing the magnitude of your ingnorace?

Or for exposing how atheists are actually scared of the truth?

Exposing the fact that you and Smelly Bandit are actually quite similar?

Which one would you like me to apologise for?



Yeah you learnt this all by yourself or was this again another Muslim finding something to make something he thinks fit with his faith or shall we go down the road of the Quranic so called science verses proving the Quran plagiarizes other works also known to be wrong?

I have no problem you have faith, but please spare me something you think you understand and yet cannot prove

Again grow up my boy

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:16 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:



Well if you can only offer insult I guess my points have proven your case to be flawed, and only a concept, my you really get upset when you back something as fact when nobody can prove otherwise.

So I though you had changed but the real Zack is standing up and being counted, more hell bent on backing his faith in Allah than any real sense.

Your religion is flawed, one day you will see that and on that I wish you luck, again I am no expert but can understand what the experts are saying.

I watched the video and have read ebough no on other concepts to know your is only a concept only, unless of course you want to travel into the future and prove me wrong?

No, didn't think so

Grow up

Lol! Don't get upset bruv. I thought you wanted a robust debate. What's all this shit about the real Zack. I thought this was our banter. I can take it easy if you want to be a baby about it.

The fact remains: who should we believe, Phil or Einstein,  Godel and other far more intelligent people?

Again you haven't replied to anything of my questions - come back with anything in your own words. By your own rules, you lose. Just because of your stubborn stupidity.

I thought atheism was about seeking the truth. Guess I was wrong. You just proved it. At least you managed to prove one thing.





Mate I do not get upset at childish abuse thrown or a religious person hell bent thinking a theory is a fact when all that has been tested is protons, nothing yet in the way of humans.
I do seek the truth and I see good ideas here with space, though not when it comes to humans within our own time and again too much is an unknown here.

As I say all you can do is to descend to insults mainly what all religious people do when their faith comes under scrutiny, which you are proving now, again unless you can go into the future you cannot prove this is the case with all matter or that in fact you can even prove that time really exists.

The later is your first point of call, which of yet without your theory would not even work in the first place, some scientists say the universes is not real and we live in a computer simulation, the ideas are numerous, but as yet what you have is a theory, which is a concept not a fact, which is what you fail to understand from the start. The fact is the matter what is taken as fact has been proven wrong many times, thus the consensus at the moment is that something is a seen as scientific but not fact   

So if you wish to debate and am all for it, if you wish to act like a child, then you still need to grow up

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:19 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:


Yeah you learnt this all by yourself or was this again another Muslim finding something to make something he thinks fit with his faith or shall we go down the road of the Quranic so called science verses proving the Quran plagiarizes other works also known to be wrong?

I have no problem you have faith, but please spare me something you think you understand and yet cannot prove

Again grow up my boy

Yes, all those scientists in that YouTube video were all MUSLIM!  

Don't get upset bruv. You're begginng to sound like a bigot. I really hope I haven't driven you to that.


 ://?roflmao?/: 


You do not get my meaning muslims themselves try to make things fit for their faith, how about embryology for a start, a completely plagiarized error written by Galen found in the Quran

-------

http://www.newsfixboard.com/viewtopic.forum?t=2959

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